The Goblin Queen vs The Scarlet Witch

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



byrdgang21
Madelyne

Vs

Wanda



Who wins?

Glorificus
If Wanda is fully crazy and bloodlusted, she takes it IMO.

If she's not going all out, and hesitates, even for a second, that'll give Maddie the opening she needs for a psychic assault.

Doon
Originally posted by Glorificus
If Wanda is fully crazy and bloodlusted, she takes it IMO.

If she's not going all out, and hesitates, even for a second, that'll give Maddie the opening she needs for a psychic assault.

^^^^^^^^^^^ This

mastagambit
Very close match and anyone could win,but I give Maddie the edge.

Mr Master
If this is HOM Wanda,
she makes a copy of the Goblin Queen, for kicks, then stomps them both.

mastagambit
HOM Wanda was broken and depressed and a mentally unstable character.
Maddie would take her out with a telepathic assault before Wanda could even have a fraction of a thought to create a hex or even utter a word.

TheGodKiller
HOM Wanda had an external amp when she did all that shiet . Doesn't mean that if she goes crazy in her regular state, she would be capable of something similar .

Mr Master
Originally posted by mastagambit

HOM Wanda was broken and depressed and a mentally unstable character.
Yea,
it didn't stop her from consciously re-arranging the entire 616 Universe
into her own private paradise (Reality 58163)

Her power could not be contained, and cracked a hole in 616 now 58163,
then her power spilled out of 616 (uncontrollably) and went to Otherworld
and wrecked shop, took down the Omniversal Nexus (Starlight Citadel)
leading to tearing the Omniverse (outside of Otherworld) to pieces.

At the end, with a thought,
she consciously again re-arranged 58163 back into 616,
nullified the mutant gene across all future Timelines,
and 90% of all current Timelines,
and most incredibly, also reverted the Chaos Wave
and undid all the damage to the Omniverse.

HOM Wanda was God-like, and imo,
one of the most powerful characters to pop up ever.
Originally posted by mastagambit

Maddie would take her out with a telepathic assault before
Wanda could even have a fraction of a thought to create a hex or
even utter a word.
laughing

Sin I AM
Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea,
it didn't stop her from consciously re-arranging the entire 616 Universe
into her own private paradise (Reality 58163)

Her power could not be contained, and cracked a hole in 616 now 58163,
then her power spilled out of 616 (uncontrollably) and went to Otherworld
and wrecked shop, took down the Omniversal Nexus (Starlight Citadel)
leading to tearing the Omniverse (outside of Otherworld) to pieces.

At the end, with a thought,
she consciously again re-arranged 58163 back into 616,
nullified the mutant gene across all future Timelines,
and 90% of all current Timelines,
and most incredibly, also reverted the Chaos Wave
and undid all the damage to the Omniverse.

HOM Wanda was God-like, and imo,
one of the most powerful characters to pop up ever.

laughing

U should post more often

mastagambit
Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea,
it didn't stop her from consciously re-arranging the entire 616 Universe
into her own private paradise (Reality 58163)

Her power could not be contained, and cracked a hole in 616 now 58163,
then her power spilled out of 616 (uncontrollably) and went to Otherworld
and wrecked shop, took down the Omniversal Nexus (Starlight Citadel)
leading to tearing the Omniverse (outside of Otherworld) to pieces.

At the end, with a thought,
she consciously again re-arranged 58163 back into 616,
nullified the mutant gene across all future Timelines,
and 90% of all current Timelines,
and most incredibly, also reverted the Chaos Wave
and undid all the damage to the Omniverse.

HOM Wanda was God-like, and imo,
one of the most powerful characters to pop up ever.

laughing


OMG. HOM Wanda did all of that? She is so powerful right? The same way Firelord is powerful and yet Spider-Man beat him.
Or Xorn kill Jean. But wait, you're gonna say those were PIS right?
Well fine.But just because Wanda did all of that does not mean she can beat Maddie.
Wanda creates hex. And when she does there is a probability factor that has to weigh in for the hex to work accordingly.
Maddie is a telepath of the highest order.
By the time Wanda can create a hex or even utter a word Maddie already defeats her.
If you are debating who is more powerful Wanda sure is. You can call her God-like is you want.
But if you are gonna debate who would win in a fight,Maddie surely beats her.

JoeyfromHolland
Originally posted by Mr Master
If this is HOM Wanda,
she makes a copy of the Goblin Queen, for kicks, then stomps them both.

Even if this Goblin Queen has the Goblin force?

Glorificus
Originally posted by JoeyfromHolland
Even if this Goblin Queen has the Goblin force?

If it's the Goblin Force Goblin Queen vs Current Scarlet Witch, then she stomps.

But if it's HoM Wanda, then the stomp is in the other direction. "No more Goblins", and Maddie and the GF would be erased from all existence.

zopzop
Originally posted by Glorificus
If it's the Goblin Force Goblin Queen vs Current Scarlet Witch, then she stomps.

But if it's HoM Wanda, then the stomp is in the other direction. "No more Goblins", and Maddie and the GF would be erased from all existence.
Havok with the Nexus of Realities tried that and apparently failed. The GF was mentioned a decade or so after those events in Marvel Tarot.

ilikecomics
Originally posted by Sin I AM
U should post more often

agreed.

mastagambit
Originally posted by Glorificus
If it's the Goblin Force Goblin Queen vs Current Scarlet Witch, then she stomps.

But if it's HoM Wanda, then the stomp is in the other direction. "No more Goblins", and Maddie and the GF would be erased from all existence.


Goblin Force erased from all existence?
Really now. HOM Wanda can do that? confused

Mr Master
Originally posted by mastagambit

OMG. HOM Wanda did all of that? She is so powerful right? The
same way Firelord is powerful and yet Spider-Man beat him.
Or Xorn kill Jean. But wait, you're gonna say those were PIS right?

Well fine.
no expression
Originally posted by mastagambit

But just because Wanda did all of that does not mean she can beat Maddie.
Wanda creates hex. And when she does there is a probability factor
that has to weigh in for the hex to work accordingly.
Maddie is a telepath of the highest order.
By the time Wanda can create a hex or even utter a word Maddie
already defeats her.
If you are debating who is more powerful Wanda sure is. You can
call her God-like is you want.
But if you are gonna debate who would win in a fight,Maddie surely beats her.
You need to read House of M (8 prime issues plus Tie-ins) then return
and we'll talk about it.

I was referring to that version of Wanda, (HOM)
which would curbstomp Maddie, Rachel, Jean or any other burning chirper.

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

Havok with the Nexus of Realities tried that and apparently failed.
The GF was mentioned a decade or so after those events in Marvel Tarot.
Hey Zop, I have the Tarots, I don't recall, what issue?

mastagambit
Originally posted by Mr Master
no expression

You need to read House of M (8 prime issues plus Tie-ins) then return
and we'll talk about it.

I was referring to that version of Wanda, (HOM)
which would curbstomp Maddie, Rachel, Jean or any other burning chirper.


That version of Wanda still creates hexes.
When she did 'no more mutants' there was a probability factor it would not work.
Hence why it did NOT erase ALL mutant powers.
You need to read up on her abilities. cool

zopzop
Originally posted by Mr Master
Hey Zop, I have the Tarots, I don't recall, what issue?
It's from The Marvel Tarot. The GF is the Avatar Force representing Water and opposes the PF which represents Fire.
http://imageshack.us/a/img222/9295/avatarforceofwater.th.jpg

Marvel Tarot and Mystic Arcana four part series was awesome. Stupid idiots at Marvel never followed it up with anything worthwhile.

Mr Master
Originally posted by mastagambit

That version of Wanda still creates hexes.
When she did 'no more mutants' there was a probability factor it would not work.
Hence why it did NOT erase ALL mutant powers.
You need to read up on her abilities.
Let me know if you need the issues, I have them scanned. smile

Until then, concerning HOM Wanda, ... night, night.

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

It's from The Marvel Tarot. The GF is the Avatar Force
representing Water and opposes the PF which represents Fire.

Marvel Tarot and Mystic Arcana four part series was awesome.
Stupid idiots at Marvel never followed it up with anything worthwhile.
I have all those books, they're great reads.

But I was curious as to what you were referring to because the Goblin Force
is never mentioned in any of the books.
Funny,
neither are many of the characters named there via cameo of even by name.

That page is a "glossary" sortaspeak that lists the names of "magic" associated characters,
but I must say good friend, I don't believe it any way dispels what Havok did.

The GF has never been seen again on panel that I know of.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Mr Master
Let me know if you need the issues, I have them scanned. smile

Until then, concerning HOM Wanda, ... night, night.
He's right in that particular regard . IIRC , Wanda only depowered 90% of the mutants across the omniverse .

zopzop
Originally posted by Mr Master
I have all those books, they're great reads.

But I was curious as to what you were referring to because the Goblin Force
is never mentioned in any of the books.
Funny,
neither are many of the characters named there via cameo of even by name.

That page is a "glossary" sortaspeak that lists the names of "magic" associated characters,
but I must say good friend, I don't believe it any way dispels what Havok did.

The GF has never been seen again on panel that I know of.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9fkf6hZqu1rvm5qqo6_1280.jpg
It's strange, the GF was supposedly wiped from all realities by Nexus Havok. Yet Ian Mcnee knew of it's existence, despite the fact that it was never seen in 616 reality and the "wiping" took place years before the events in Marvel Tarot and Mystic Arcana.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
He's right in that particular regard . IIRC , Wanda only depowered 90% of the mutants across the omniverse .
Here's a good question : Does anyone know how those 10% withstood the "No More Mutants" hex?

mastagambit
Originally posted by Mr Master
Let me know if you need the issues, I have them scanned. smile

Until then, concerning HOM Wanda, ... night, night.



I don't need the issues,thanks anyway.
Sending me scans of HOM Wanda doing a hex which DID NOT work in it's entirety is redundant and proves nothing.
Maddie can still beat her in a heart beat.
If you don't see that then you must be clouded by one of Wanda's spells.

Mr Master
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

He's right in that particular regard . IIRC ,
Wanda only depowered 90% of the mutants across the omniverse .
I know what she intentionally did.

Now,
I'd like to see where you read that she did that cause her "hex" didn't work fully.

That aside, how about Wanda remaking Universe 616 entirely into 58163.

How about Wanda remaking Universe 58163 entirely back into 616,
while simultaneously reverting the Chaos Wave
and also re-building the Omniverse from Cosmic chaos.

That was all consciously done at in HOM, with a thought.

Heck, "no more mutants" is the baby stuff included in the "spell."

The real monster feat is molding the entire 616 Reality like doe,
and restructuring the full blown Omniverse which was torn to pieces.

So, yea, she decided to de-power 90% of all mutants in current Timelines,
and ALL mutants across Future Timelines.

When you put it all together, I can see her under performance. no expression

Originally posted by zopzop


http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9fkf6hZqu1rvm5qqo6_1280.jpg

It's strange, the GF was supposedly wiped from all realities by Nexus Havok.

Yet Ian Mcnee knew of it's existence,
despite the fact that it was never seen in 616 reality and the "wiping"
took place years before the events in Marvel Tarot and Mystic Arcana.
But Zop, that scan is the GF getting rubbed out by Havok.

I'm talking about withIN the Tarot/Mystic books,
the GF was never mentioned or most of the characters from the
"glossary" listing you posted prior.

Imo, that listing of names was giving reference to beings/entities associated with "magic."

In what book did Ian mention the GF?
Originally posted by zopzop

Does anyone know how those 10% withstood the "No More Mutants" hex?
They didn't.

Wanda simply didn't affect them, and there's no reason of any kind why,
that I've come across.

mastagambit
^ reading his ridiculous posts and finding out that it was him that contributed to that huge mess of HOM Wanda respect thread I have nothing more to say to him.

Blight
Originally posted by mastagambit
^ reading his ridiculous posts and finding out that it was him that contributed to that huge mess of HOM Wanda respect thread I have nothing more to say to him. That's generally called "Conceding".

guy222
hom wanda vs maddie with the gf hmm

mastagambit
Originally posted by Blight
That's generally called "Conceding".


Nah,it's just that I wont respond to his ridiculous posts.

mastagambit
Originally posted by guy222
hom wanda vs maddie with the gf hmm


Now that would be a great mash up.
But I still see Maddie beating her.
Wanda is too emotional and would second guess before attempting anything.
Maddie with gf would strike her out of existence.

guy222
maddie was extremely powerful with the force and beyonder's power

who wins

i'll let the pros decide that stick out tongue

mastagambit
Originally posted by guy222
maddie was extremely powerful with the force and beyonder's power

who wins

i'll let the pros decide that stick out tongue



http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr129/wrath_2010/gq2uj9.jpg

guy222
cool smile

i posted scans long ago from the issues

zopzop
Originally posted by Mr Master
I know what she intentionally did.

Now,
I'd like to see where you read that she did that cause her "hex" didn't work fully.

That aside, how about Wanda remaking Universe 616 entirely into 58163.

How about Wanda remaking Universe 58163 entirely back into 616,
while simultaneously reverting the Chaos Wave
and also re-building the Omniverse from Cosmic chaos.

That was all consciously done at in HOM, with a thought.

Heck, "no more mutants" is the baby stuff included in the "spell."

The real monster feat is molding the entire 616 Reality like doe,
and restructuring the full blown Omniverse which was torn to pieces.

So, yea, she decided to de-power 90% of all mutants in current Timelines,
and ALL mutants across Future Timelines.

When you put it all together, I can see her under performance. no expression


But Zop, that scan is the GF getting rubbed out by Havok.

I'm talking about withIN the Tarot/Mystic books,
the GF was never mentioned or most of the characters from the
"glossary" listing you posted prior.

Imo, that listing of names was giving reference to beings/entities associated with "magic."

In what book did Ian mention the GF?

They didn't.

Wanda simply didn't affect them, and there's no reason of any kind why,
that I've come across.
Yup, I wanted to post that scan because he supposedly said he wiped it out of every reality in the omniverse. Yet mages in 616 reality knew of it's existence despite the fact that the Mutant X events took place years before Marvel Tarot and the fact that the Goblin Force was never seen in 616 reality. How could they know of it's existence if it was wiped out years prior and never made an appearance in 616 reality?

Regarding the 10%ers who weren't touched by the hex, I find it odd NO explanation was given? Maybe the ending of AvX and AvX Consequences will provide answers? I wouldn't bet on it though, stupid idiot Marvel writers.
Originally posted by mastagambit
http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr129/wrath_2010/gq2uj9.jpg
Yeah the reason why I tend to favor Madelyne/GF is because it actually had fights under it's belt (the PF, Galactus, the 5th Host and then the entire Celestial race, devouring the Beyonder, etc..).

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

Yup, I wanted to post that scan because he supposedly said he
wiped it out of every reality in the omniverse. Yet mages in 616
reality knew of it's existence despite the fact that the Mutant X events
took place years before Marvel Tarot and the fact that the Goblin
Force was never seen in 616 reality. How could they know of it's
existence if it was wiped out years prior and never made an
appearance in 616 reality?
What mages are you referring too?

I'm still wondering good friend where it is you saw/read the Goblin Force being
mentioned on panel in any of the Tarot/Mystic books.

Because aside from the glossary listing of characters that are
associated with "magic" through out the years,
there's nothing withIN the actual stories that I came across.

That goes for most of the other characters listed in the glossary.
Originally posted by zopzop

Regarding the 10%ers who weren't touched by the hex, I find it odd NO explanation was given? Maybe the ending of AvX and AvX
Consequences will provide answers? I wouldn't bet on it though,
stupid idiot Marvel writers.
How about Marvel didn't want to leave the rest of their Titles without substance.

The Editors were not going to allow
every mainstream mutant hero to be left without power for months.
Originally posted by zopzop

Yeah the reason why I tend to favor Madelyne/GF is because it
actually had fights under it's belt (the PF, Galactus, the 5th Host and
then the entire Celestial race, devouring the Beyonder, etc..).
The only opponent the GF confronted were those Celestials,
after it had devoured that alternate Galactus and that alternate PF,
and while the GF was at its most powerful it still lost to just that 5th host.

Beyonder wasn't devoured or even harmed by the GF,
in fact, the Beyonder's essence/power had nothing to do with the GF story.

That was just some "corpse" given the appearance of the Beyonder:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13452075_GF1.jpg

GF did that too scare the others into telling her where Havok was.

You know better than to be peeking into "wiki" for real in-story info. stick out tongue


Bottomline:

The GF needed the Nexus of Realities
& Havok's support since only he could merge with it
in order to try and do what Wanda did.

zopzop
Originally posted by Mr Master
What mages are you referring too?

I'm still wondering good friend where it is you saw/read the Goblin Force being
mentioned on panel in any of the Tarot/Mystic books.

Because aside from the glossary listing of characters that are
associated with "magic" through out the years,
there's nothing withIN the actual stories that I came across.

That goes for most of the other characters listed in the glossary.
The Glossary is what I'm referring to. How could it be mentioned by 616 mystics (read the the intro) and Ian Mcnee if it was destroyed by Nexus Havok in an alt reality before it ever made an appearance in 616?


Still very sloppy writing.


It lost to more than just the Host my friend. The text clearly states that "their great race was devastated". This would only make sense if the Host were the ONLY members of the Celestials race in that reality.

No, I have the issue. It possessed the Beyonder's corpse and drew on its power before devouring it. The GF itself states that even it didn't know who it really was until recently.

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

The Glossary is what I'm referring to. How could it be mentioned by
616 mystics (read the the intro) and Ian Mcnee if it was destroyed by
Nexus Havok in an alt reality before it ever made an appearance in
616?
Havok erased it from every reality.

He didn't erase it from ever existing. (ie. nullification)

That aside, in-story (on panel) GF is never even hinted at being mentioned.
Originally posted by zopzop

Still very sloppy writing.
True. But they really had no choice with that one.
Originally posted by zopzop

It lost to more than just the Host my friend. The text clearly states
that "their great race was devastated". This would only make
sense if the Host were the ONLY members of the Celestials race in that reality.
The text also clearly states it was the 5th host that stopped her.

Meh, Celestials were nothing but motes in the wind caught in Wanda's warp.

Every "sentience no matter how grandiose its opinion of itself"
Originally posted by zopzop

No, I have the issue. It possessed the Beyonder's corpse and drew
on its power before devouring it. The GF itself states that even it
didn't know who it really was until recently.
I have the issues too,
and I just skimmed through it to be certain
of what I already knew.

The GF never at any time is portrayed either finding Beyonder's body,
possessing it,
or absorbing his power or devouring him.

GF said it was confused cause it's nature was buried so deep withIN that corpse.

And?

Again, the GF was playing a role to get to Havok, that being,
pretending to be the Beyonder to scare the heroes into telling her where Havok was.

Did you really read these two issues?

I know the Wiki info on this is F'd up, and it's the only explanation
why you would believe that was really Beyonder,
cause anyone who has the two book mini would know better.


* Edit* .. Why would Beyonder's body just be laying around
unconscious waiting for anyone to drop by and take it over with power and all?

Come on Zop, that right there should tell you. laughing out loud

zopzop
Originally posted by Mr Master
Havok erased it from every reality.

He didn't erase it from ever existing. (ie. nullification)

That aside, in-story (on panel) GF is never even hinted at being mentioned.
But that's the thing though. How would anyone in 616 reality be aware of a Force that was never shown as existing in 616 reality?


It said the 5th Host went up against it and stopped it and as a result their great race was devastated. How could that be? Either the entire Celestial race of that universe consisted of only the Fifth Host or the Fifth Host encountered it and call for back up which resulted in the GF being contained and the entire Celestial race of that dimension being wrecked.

Keep in mind for all of HoM Wanda's power she never went up against any cosmics.


But it did :
http://imageshack.us/a/img818/5114/beyonder.th.jpg

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

But that's the thing though.
How would anyone in 616 reality be aware of a Force
that was never shown as existing in 616 reality?
It had to exist even though we as readers were never given that eye candy.
It existed because it was a "force of nature."
Originally posted by zopzop

It said the 5th Host went up against it and stopped it and as a result
their great race was devastated. How could that be? Either the
entire Celestial race of that universe consisted of only the Fifth Host
or the Fifth Host encountered it and call for back up which resulted
in the GF being contained and the entire Celestial race of that
dimension being wrecked.


Originally posted by zopzop

Keep in mind for all of HoM Wanda's power she never went up against any cosmics.
That's cause they all got stomped without her even trying.

Keep also in mind,
that Goblin Queen for all its power really never did anything to the Cosmics.

Oh wait, she stomped that alternate PF and big G.

But I've seen Xorn explode the actual PF, (616 bio fact)
an Alien Ship was absorbing the PF, (616 bio fact) like the GF, (not 616)
and 6 heroes stalemated it. (616 bio fact)
oh, and Galactus was going to erase it all together with tech. (616 bio fact)

Was that alternate big G hungry that lost to GF?

Who knows.

Anyway, the Celestials were devastated although they won,
but the GF had to have the combined power of big G and the PF
plus its own to do that. smile

Originally posted by zopzop

But it did :
http://imageshack.us/a/img818/5114/beyonder.th.jpg
Actually, it didn't.

That's the Goblin Force in the form of the Beyonder sleeping,
not the actual Beyonder. laughing out loud

Anyway good friend, the first thing this so-called Beyonder did upon awakening,
is do exactly what the GF does .. absorb:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13452164_GF2.jpg

That's not part of Beyonder's power-set, or character make-up.

That's the GF solely.

-------------------------------------

LOL! ... so Beyonder decided to hibernate ... for no reason,
leaving his body exposed and vulnerable ... for no reason.

Oh, and where/when in the hell did Beyonder do this AFTER Secret Wars? laughing

He must've transported his body from the Beyond Realm to Earth-1280
in-between SSII and the first retcon
cause that's where he went after SSII. (to the Beyond Realm)

The Merchant
Is GF equal to PF?

Glorificus
Originally posted by The Merchant
Is GF equal to PF?

GF > PF.

By far.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Mr Master

The only opponent the GF confronted were those Celestials,
after it had devoured that alternate Galactus and that alternate PF,
and while the GF was at its most powerful it still lost to just that 5th host.
The PF was the only entity it "devoured" . Galactus merely "fell" before it(i.e he was only beaten/defeated) , and the Celestials' "great race" got "devastated" in the process of containing the GF .

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Mr Master
I know what she intentionally did.
Intentionally did ? I know this much that it was revealed that those mutants managed to survive her onslaught because their X-Gene was located on a different chromosome or some such dipsh|t explanation .

All the rest is discussion I am not really interested in as I agree with most of your views regarding HoM .

JoeyfromHolland
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
The PF was the only entity it "devoured" . Galactus merely "fell" before it(i.e he was only beaten/defeated) , and the Celestials' "great race" got "devastated" in the process of containing the GF .

You beat me to it. It wasn't specified that Galactus was devoured.

Mr Master
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

The PF was the only entity it "devoured" . Galactus merely "fell"
before it(i.e he was only beaten/defeated) , and the Celestials' "great
race" got "devastated" in the process of containing the GF .
thumb up Although those alternate Celestials are definitely not = to 616.

One 616 Celestial should be more than enough to stomp, imo.

Also, even after absorbing the PF,
GF only caught the concern of the Celestials,
which are near the bottom of the food chain in the Cosmic hierarchy of any universe.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Intentionally did ? I know this much that it was revealed that those
mutants managed to survive her onslaught because their X-Gene was
located on a different chromosome or some such dipsh|t explanation .

I'll review those issues to get the full cap, but I recall something akin to that.

Imo, it's more of a corporate move by the Editors.
They're not going to have the entire mutant-hood of heroes/villains
de-powered for months across mainstream titles.

That's simply not feasible from a business standpoint.

The very fact that Wanda (with a thought) was able to rebuild the entire Omniverse,
while meticulously re-arranging 616 back and forth,
is blatant proof that she could've easily de-powered
anyone she wanted without set-backs.

So, this is why imo, I think it was a head-quarter decision from the get,
which makes perfect sense.

zopzop
Originally posted by Mr Master
It had to exist even though we as readers were never given that eye candy.
It existed because it was a "force of nature."
But why use the GF though? Seeing as how it never made an appearance in 616 reality? Why not use another "Force" (Power Cosmic, Power Primordial, etc..) or make up a "Force" a la Annihilation with Annihilus tapping the "Opposing Force"? How would 616 mystics and Ian Mcnee know of the GF when it never showed it's face in 616 and was supposedly destroyed years before the events in Mystic Arcana and Tarot?


But like you said the PF is weaksauce and we don't know how hungry Galactus was. So it was mainly the power of the GF that devastated the entire race of Celestials in the Mutant X universe and the GF wasn't destroyed, it was merely contained. Further proof is that when the GF reemerged the Celestials were nowhere to be found and didn't confront it.

Compare that to What If Secret Wars where Doom with SW Beyonder's power AND the IG destroyed the Celestials BUT the IG was depowered and the Gems were destroyed as a result AND Doom burnt out almost all of the Beyonder's power and only had enough to reignite the Earth's core before the Beyonder's power was completely spent too!


But it did! The narration made it clear that Earth's heroes barely beat the Beyonder and was sleeping within the Earth's core after the events of SW as it pertained to THAT universe. Further proof is when he awaken he wanted to know what had happened since he was imprisoned and sent out a warning to those that opposed him that he was back :
http://imageshack.us/a/img812/7976/98370476.th.jpghttp://imageshack.us/a/img13/7650/sw2z.th.jpg
The GF possessed the sleeping Beyonder then slowly devoured him and his power.

Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up Although those alternate Celestials are definitely not = to 616.

One 616 Celestial should be more than enough to stomp, imo.

Also, even after absorbing the PF,
GF only caught the concern of the Celestials,
which are near the bottom of the food chain in the Cosmic hierarchy of any universe.
This isn't necessarily true though Mr. M. During that What if Secret Wars with Dr. Doom in it. He had both SWs Beyonder's power AND the IG and he went up against the Celestials. After 407 years, the Celestials were destroyed but so was the IG. It's power was depleted and the Gems were destroyed. Also Doom burnt out almost all of the Beyonder's power and only had enough left to reignite the Earth's core before his Beyonder power burnt out completely.

And just like the Mutant X scenario, it only showed a handful of Celestials (a Host?) fighting Doom then afterward saying that their race was killed. Some posters on this forum were even arguing that Doom ONLY fought a Host for 407 years. I'm sure you can find their posts if you wanted using Google.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/priest_85/WhatIf-SecretWars029.jpg

JoeyfromHolland
Originally posted by Mr Master


Bottomline:

The GF needed the Nexus of Realities
& Havok's support since only he could merge with it
in order to try and do what Wanda did.

I have to know, I read somewhere a while ago where you stated that Havok with the nexus "may be the most powerful being in the Omniverse, after LT."

Edit: found the link where you said that but can't post it. It's on page 51 of your "everything cosmic" thread. Iknow it's old but maybe you still hold that opinion?

Since Wanda is in the Omniversal feats league, where do you rank Wanda compared to Alex?

Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up Although those alternate Celestials are definitely not = to 616.


Do you have a context related source for that?

For example, in case of the Celestials of 4280, Jonathan Hickman confirmed they are equal in power to their 616 counterparts.
(can't post the source / link as a new poster

I don't know if you consider an author's opinion outside of a comic canon or hyperbole. In this case said writer made a comment about characters(the Mad Celestials) he created.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Mr Master

I'll review those issues to get the full cap, but I recall something akin to that.

Imo, it's more of a corporate move by the Editors.
They're not going to have the entire mutant-hood of heroes/villains
de-powered for months across mainstream titles.

That's simply not feasible from a business standpoint.

The very fact that Wanda (with a thought) was able to rebuild the entire Omniverse,
while meticulously re-arranging 616 back and forth,
is blatant proof that she could've easily de-powered
anyone she wanted without set-backs.

So, this is why imo, I think it was a head-quarter decision from the get,
which makes perfect sense.
While its true it wouldn't make sense to have a mad witch break and make the omniverse and then fail to put down a single species in their entirety , it is nevertheless an on-panel proposition(iirc) .

Edit : In the What If version of HoM , Wanda depowered every super-neing in existence through the words ""No more powers" . So it really makes no sense why the mainstream version would have a couple of mutants survive . Maybe the X-Franchise's(may the Lord have mercy on it for being passed onto Bendis) fanbase was the reason ?

Mr Master
thumb up

Originally posted by zopzop


But why use the GF though? Seeing as how it never made an
appearance in 616 reality? Why not use another "Force" (Power
Cosmic, Power Primordial, etc..) or make up a "Force" a la
Annihilation with Annihilus tapping the "Opposing Force"? How
would 616 mystics and Ian Mcnee know of the GF when it never
showed it's face in 616 and was supposedly destroyed years before
the events in Mystic Arcana and Tarot?
You're asking the same question again friend, so I'll refer you to my other post.
Originally posted by zopzop

But like you said the PF is weaksauce and we don't know how
hungry Galactus was. So it was mainly the power of the GF that
devastated the entire race of Celestials in the Mutant X universe
and the GF wasn't destroyed, it was merely contained. Further
proof is that when the GF reemerged the Celestials were nowhere
to be found and didn't confront it.
GF, is still weaksauce. It did nothing special after it awakened,
it never threatened even the universe under its own power.

Celestials not confronting the GF in its re-
emergence has nothing to do with the Celestials status, existence
and/or worry concerning the GF.

The story was written so a hero would stomp her. (Havok)

You sometimes think to linearly Zop and forget this is comics good friend.
Originally posted by zopzop

Compare that to What If Secret Wars where Doom with SW Beyonder's power
AND the IG destroyed the Celestials BUT the IG was depowered and the Gems
were destroyed as a result AND Doom burnt out almost all of the Beyonder's power
and only had enough to reignite the Earth's core before the Beyonder's power was
completely spent too!
no expression That "What if" has nothing to do with this story.
Originally posted by zopzop

But it did! The narration made it clear that Earth's heroes barely beat the
Beyonder and was sleeping within the Earth's core after the events of SW as it
pertained to THAT universe. Further proof is when he awaken he wanted to know
what had happened since he was imprisoned and sent out a warning to those that
opposed him that he was back :

The GF possessed the sleeping Beyonder then slowly devoured him and his power.
Yea Zop, I know the story well you ain't showing me anything new friend,

Again,
No where on panel is the GF ever shown devouring him or his power.

No where on panel is that depicted artistically or stated.

After reviewing the material again I found I missed something and my truth was incomplete.

It actually was an alternate Beyonder from the Mutant X reality
that was destroyed by Strange and Earth's heroes,
but some of his essence remained in the corpse.

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13478677_Bey4.jpg

So you see, it was just the remaining remnants she was able to take over.
Strange even stated that the GF would at best be able to destroy the planet,
instead of all reality which it needed Havok's connection to the Nexus.

That's what he's referring to in that scan.
Originally posted by zopzop

This isn't necessarily true though Mr. M. During that What if Secret Wars with Dr.
Doom in it. He had both SWs Beyonder's power AND the IG and he went up
against the Celestials. After 407 years, the Celestials were destroyed but so was
the IG. It's power was depleted and the Gems were destroyed. Also Doom burnt
out almost all of the Beyonder's power and only had enough left to reignite the
Earth's core before his Beyonder power burnt out completely.

And just like the Mutant X scenario, it only showed a handful of Celestials (a Host?)
fighting Doom then afterward saying that their race was killed. Some posters on
this forum were even arguing that Doom ONLY fought a Host for 407 years. I'm
sure you can find their posts if you wanted using Google.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Mutant X story.

Heck, the Beyonder from the Mutant X Earth was defeated & destroyed by the Planet's heroes.

zopzop
Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up


You're asking the same question again friend, so I'll refer you to my other post.
Let's just agree to disagree here Mr. M.


And it did threaten the universe under it's own power as stated by Uatu of the Mutant X reality until it was contained by the Celestials but not before it devastated their entire race.
http://images.wikia.com/marveldatabase/images/8/82/Mutant_X_Vol_1_12_003.jpg


Nice find with that scan. But still like Strange said, there is SOME of the Beyonder's essence in him and something far more dangerous.

I know the What If example I gave had nothing to do with the Mutant X story, I was just using it as an example because you said that the Celestials are almost always at the bottom of the cosmic food chain. Yet in at least one reality they wrecked the IG and almost all of SW Beyonder's power before being killed. The fact the GF was able to devastate their entire race in the Mutant X universe is a nice feat.

Regarding what Strange said about the GF only being able to destroy a planet, we know that's not true. Uatu of the Mutant X universe said he saw it devour galaxies.

Glorificus
Scarlet Witch just recently "destroyed" the Phoenix Force and used it to create more mutants... which makes no sense since the Phoenix Force is the culmination of all life and all psionic energy in the universe... but whatevs.

It's still a hefty feat, albeit nebulous.

zopzop
Originally posted by Glorificus
Scarlet Witch just recently "destroyed" the Phoenix Force and used it to create more mutants... which makes no sense since the Phoenix Force is the culmination of all life and all psionic energy in the universe... but whatevs.

It's still a hefty feat, albeit nebulous.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=41345
I don't think it was destroyed.

Glorificus
That is why I put "destroyed" in quotations. It's still unclear as to what exactly Wanda's chaos magic did when she said "No more Phoenix".

I'm sure the White Hot Room still exists... and Jean should still be there as the WPotC, sitting her fat ass on the throne holding various universes in the palm of her hands or something...

But the Cuckoos did state that they sensed the Phoenix force being there one instant, and then suddenly blinking off. And immediately afterwards, the new mutant lights started popping up... so she did get rid of the Force itself in some way, or at least transformed it into mutations and awakened X-genes.

zopzop
Originally posted by Glorificus
That is why I put "destroyed" in quotations. It's still unclear as to what exactly Wanda's chaos magic did when she said "No more Phoenix".

I'm sure the White Hot Room still exists... and Jean should still be there as the WPotC, sitting her fat ass on the throne holding various universes in the palm of her hands or something...

But the Cuckoos did state that they sensed the Phoenix force being there one instant, and then suddenly blinking off. And immediately afterwards, the new mutant lights started popping up... so she did get rid of the Force itself in some way, or at least removed its presence from 616.


Marvel forever trolling it's readers.

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

Let's just agree to disagree here Mr. M.
smile
Originally posted by zopzop

And it did threaten the universe under it's own power as stated by
Uatu of the Mutant X reality until it was contained by the Celestials
but not before it devastated their entire race.
So according to this Uatu, it threatened reality 1280,
but, it was defeated by the Celestials of said reality.

Yet, when the GF re-emerged, it did absolutely nothing special,
didn't affect the universe, a galaxy,a star, a planet,
heck, not even a city.

Oh right, it hid itself in the corpse of a destroyed alternate Beyonder,
where only some of his essence remained.

A Beyonder defeated & destroyed by Earth bound heroes. laughing out loud
Originally posted by zopzop

Nice find with that scan. But still like Strange said, there is SOME of
the Beyonder's essence in him and something far more dangerous.
So you concede that the GF was not slowly devouring him & his power as you claimed?

Because it was never stated and/or depicted, plus the Beyonder was destroyed.
At best, that bitty remnant of his essence was consciousness NOT power,
which is why the GF was at first confused when it first took his corpse.

But make no mistake, that was never the actual Beyonder of that reality,
only his defeated/destroyed corpse:



That Mutant X universe was only in danger if the GF could harness Havok' power source (Nexus)
Otherwise, it's a planetary power according to Strange.

Also, I'm not surprised the GF was more dangerous than that Beyonder.
GF was defeated but held its own against the Celestials of that reality,
while that Beyonder was stomped/killed by the planet's heroes.
Originally posted by zopzop

I know the What If example I gave had nothing to do with the Mutant X story, I was just using it as an example because you said that the Celestials are almost always at the bottom of the cosmic food chain. Yet in at least one reality they wrecked the IG and almost all of SW Beyonder's power before being killed. The fact the GF was able to devastate their entire race in the Mutant X universe is a nice feat.
That's a matter of perspective Zop.

Let me show you:


Alternate Beyonder: (getting killed by a 6 shooter pistol)

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13486245_B1.jpghttp://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13486247_B2.jpghttp://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13486250_B3.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------


Alternate Infinity Gauntlet: (needs to merge with Galactus' power just to re-create a single Planet)

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13486253_IGIM1.jpg
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13486254_IGIM2.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------


So yes I agree, there are some "alternates" that give 616 cats a run for their money,
then there's the majority, which is comedy at worst, and mediocrity at best.

We simply don't know where those Celestials stand next to 616 versions,
and unfortunately there's no reference of feats for us to at-least attempt at a categorization.
Originally posted by zopzop

Regarding what Strange said about the GF only being able to destroy a planet, we
know that's not true. Uatu of the Mutant X universe said he saw it devour galaxies.
Perhaps it was more powerful at its inception,
because if I had to put my money on someone's words, it'd be based on what the
GF was able or capable of when it actually appeared on panel.

On Panel, it was defeated twice by Havok, (with and without the Nexus)
On Panel, it never did anything significant, not even global, actually not even city-wide.

So, I'd go with Strange's view based on actual showings.
Although even he gives more credit than presented.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Glorificus
Scarlet Witch just recently "destroyed" the Phoenix Force and used it to create more mutants... which makes no sense since the Phoenix Force is the culmination of all life and all psionic energy in the universe... but whatevs.

It's still a hefty feat, albeit nebulous.

I really don't see where the implication came from that it was destroyed in the first place. It's stated by the Cuckoos that wasn't the case. The PF performed a very important action afterwards.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13487828_avsx012r.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13487829_avsx012s.jpg

carver9
Question. Does DARK Phoenix exist because of the person or is the Phoenix entity itself evil?

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
Question. Does DARK Phoenix exist because of the person or is the Phoenix entity itself evil?

Huh?

The Phoenix corrupts. Look at Jean/Cyclops etc. It might not be necessarily evil, but it's still corruption.

Are you evil when you step on an ant, for example.

carver9
Originally posted by -Pr-
Huh?

The Phoenix corrupts. Look at Jean/Cyclops etc. It might not be necessarily evil, but it's still corruption.

Are you evil when you step on an ant, for example.

I know but there are instances of the Phoenix "not" being evil...Jean, Hope etc..

That's why I asked because its either the person or the entity and it wouldn't make sense if the "entity" was evil due to the importance of the Phoenix.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
I know but there are instances of the Phoenix "not" being evil...Jean, Hope etc..

That's why I asked because its either the person or the entity and it wouldn't make sense if the "entity" was evil due to the importance of the Phoenix.

Honestly, Hope didn't really have it long enough to show us if it was going to corrupt her, and Jean...

Jean has rarely been shown as being a fully-powered Phoenix, and when she has, she's been Dark Phoenix more often than not. The White Crown is more an exception than the rule.

Galan007
Originally posted by Mr Master
So yes I agree, there are some "alternates" that give 616 cats a run for their money,
then there's the majority, which is comedy at worst, and mediocrity at best. More times than not, I'd agree. However, the 'alternates' from Hickman's arc all seemed to be roughly equal to their 616 counterparts, imo. 616 Reed himself confirmed that even his alternates from the Council of Reeds possessed an intellect similar to (and in some cases greater than) his own:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12428483_r1.jpg

...And considering it took Franklin (a high-level reality manipulator) preforming a final kamikaze attack to defeat Eson at the end, it definitely seems like the Mad Celestials were intended to be on par with their 616 counterparts as well, imo. But yeah, they are/were definitely hard to gauge... But then again, so are 616 Celestials, on average. /shrug

zopzop
Originally posted by carver9
Question. Does DARK Phoenix exist because of the person or is the Phoenix entity itself evil?
The Phoenix isn't evil, at all. The only reason the original Phoenix, Jean, went crazy, was because Mastermind of the Hellfire Club corrupted her. Before that she was just fine. Rachel Summers had the Phoenix for YEARS and she never went berserk. Giraud of Haven in the GotG universe had the Phoenix and likewise never went crazy.

The only reason why the P5 went berserk is they were NEVER meant to be the Phoenix's hosts. It was the Avengers' idiocy that caused it to be split into 5 pieces and enter unworthy and unchosen hosts.
Originally posted by Mr Master
smile

So according to this Uatu, it threatened reality 1280,
but, it was defeated by the Celestials of said reality.

Yet, when the GF re-emerged, it did absolutely nothing special,
didn't affect the universe, a galaxy,a star, a planet,
heck, not even a city.

Oh right, it hid itself in the corpse of a destroyed alternate Beyonder,
where only some of his essence remained.

A Beyonder defeated & destroyed by Earth bound heroes. laughing out loud

So you concede that the GF was not slowly devouring him & his power as you claimed?

Because it was never stated and/or depicted, plus the Beyonder was destroyed.
At best, that bitty remnant of his essence was consciousness NOT power,
which is why the GF was at first confused when it first took his corpse.

But make no mistake, that was never the actual Beyonder of that reality,
only his defeated/destroyed corpse:



That Mutant X universe was only in danger if the GF could harness Havok' power source (Nexus)
Otherwise, it's a planetary power according to Strange.

Also, I'm not surprised the GF was more dangerous than that Beyonder.
GF was defeated but held its own against the Celestials of that reality,
while that Beyonder was stomped/killed by the planet's heroes.

That's a matter of perspective Zop.

Let me show you:


Alternate Beyonder: (getting killed by a 6 shooter pistol)

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13486245_B1.jpghttp://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13486247_B2.jpghttp://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13486250_B3.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------


Alternate Infinity Gauntlet: (needs to merge with Galactus' power just to re-create a single Planet)

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13486253_IGIM1.jpg
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13486254_IGIM2.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------


So yes I agree, there are some "alternates" that give 616 cats a run for their money,
then there's the majority, which is comedy at worst, and mediocrity at best.

We simply don't know where those Celestials stand next to 616 versions,
and unfortunately there's no reference of feats for us to at-least attempt at a categorization.

Perhaps it was more powerful at its inception,
because if I had to put my money on someone's words, it'd be based on what the
GF was able or capable of when it actually appeared on panel.

On Panel, it was defeated twice by Havok, (with and without the Nexus)
On Panel, it never did anything significant, not even global, actually not even city-wide.

So, I'd go with Strange's view based on actual showings.
Although even he gives more credit than presented.
But that's the thing, there WAS some of the Beyonder's power in his body when the GF possessed and devoured it. It's even stated on panel :
http://imageshack.us/a/img40/5479/powerna.th.jpg
The GF with the Beyonder's power, according to Strange, was MORE powerful than ever before and wanted to destroy ALL the time continuums and she had the power to do so, if she can get through Havok. The GF wanted the Nexus as a gate to enter other realities that's it.

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

But that's the thing, there WAS some of the Beyonder's power in his
body when the GF possessed and devoured it. It's even stated on panel
"Some" ... cool, I agree.

Although, it says she merged, not devoured.
I also basically said the same thing,
I just missed that detail that the some included power.
Originally posted by zopzop

The GF with the Beyonder's power, according to Strange, was MORE
powerful than ever before and wanted to destroy ALL the time
continuums and she had the power to do so, if she can get through
Havok. The GF wanted the Nexus as a gate to enter other realities
that's it.
Meh, other than defeating some heroes, she didn't do anything special.

And as it is known by us both, without Havok's connection to the Nexus,
GF couldn't do jack to reality.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Glorificus
Scarlet Witch just recently "destroyed" the Phoenix Force and used it to create more mutants... which makes no sense since the Phoenix Force is the culmination of all life and all psionic energy in the universe... but whatevs.

It's still a hefty feat, albeit nebulous.
It was a shared feat with Hope .

carver9
This is the best thread that's popping up right now. Liking Mr. Masters and Zop debate.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by carver9
Question. Does DARK Phoenix exist because of the person or is the Phoenix entity itself evil?
Originally the corruption of the Phoenix was a result of the tamperings of Hellfire Club with Jean's mindset . It exposed the Force to her dark human passions , which resulted in the creation of the Dark Phoenix persona .

The same with Scott I guess . His lack of preparation psychologically for wielding such power , along with constant pestering and provokation by the Avengers , finally sent him over the edge and caused the metamorphosis into DP .

carver9
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Originally the corruption of the Phoenix was a result of the tamperings of Hellfire Club with Jean's mindset . It exposed the Force to her dark human passions , which resulted in the creation of the Dark Phoenix persona .

The same with Scott I guess . His lack of preparation psychologically for wielding such power , along with constant pestering and provokation by the Avengers , finally sent him over the edge and caused the metamorphosis into DP .


Aaaahhh, I remember this. Phoenix in Jean body witnessed new sensations which started the Dark Phoenix. Thanks for the post.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.