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Location is lair of general grevious

Grievous wins. I think he is better than either of the brothers.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Grievous wins. I think he is better than either of the brothers.

I can see your not a big fan of the Maul brothers but there's no need to be overly biased.

Opress crushes Grievous with the Force. I'm not even convinced he would lose a Saber only fight. Although his lack of skill may find difficulty with 4 swinging lightsabers.

Maul would destroy Grievous in both Sabers and in the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I can see your not a big fan of the Maul brothers but there's no need to be overly biased.

Opress crushes Grievous with the Force. I'm not even convinced he would lose a Saber only fight. Although his lack of skill may find difficulty with 4 swinging lightsabers.

Maul would destroy Grievous in both Sabers and in the Force.

It's also a my opinion.

Grievous is stronger than Oppress imo. And Grievous in canon has been able to dodge force pushes/ outright tank them.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Grievous is stronger than Oppress imo.

Dude Grievous was driven back by Fisto! Even Adi Gallia briefly held him at bay, and we saw how much stronger Opress was to her!

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And Grievous in canon has been able to dodge force pushes/ outright tank them.

Let's see him try and dodge this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOkn3UBL51g

@0:56!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dude Grievous was driven back by Fisto! Even Adi Gallia briefly held him at bay, and we saw how much stronger Opress was to her!

I think that Fisto would dominate Savage. And while it may not be canon anymore, you forget who annihilated Gallia the first time she died.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-3talVkUA
He can just tank it 3:43

Savage's forces abilities tip it for him, IMO. Grevious is definitely more skilled in sabers, but Savage is no slouch, and can take wins especially is he gets pissed.

Well, Savage is not as powerful as Maul is, and besides, Grievous has killed many Jedi, all of which were force-sensitive (obviously). I still think too many people underestimate Grievous because the show portrays him in a weak light. If you read the novels, Grievous has been a serious match for even the toughest of Jedi. In LoE, even Windu was hard-pressed against Grievous!

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Grievous is stronger than Oppress imo. And Grievous in canon has been able to dodge force pushes/ outright tank them.
Agreed

This is actually a good debate, its going both ways.

Originally posted by mnat801
This is actually a good debate, its going both ways.
I am not a Savage or a Maul hater, I just think Grievous is stronger. It is just my opinion.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I think that Fisto would dominate Savage.

Your kidding right?

Based on what exactly? Savage is destroying Council members like Adi Gallia. Him and Ventress together were challenging Count Dooku.

He himself battered Ventress, who Fisto can't take, can't even match.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And while it may not be canon anymore, you forget who annihilated Gallia the first time she died.

Like you said it's not canon anymore. And even in that original non-canon version he took her by surprise with a 3rd hand and snapped her neck with it.

Somehow I don't see that working on Savage. It's more likely he would snap Grievous.




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-3talVkUA
He can just tank it 3:43

That wasn't a force attack. It was a sonic blast.

Grievous can't tank Kenobi's force attacks which means Opress would completely crush him with the Force.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
and besides, Grievous has killed many Jedi, all of which were force-sensitive (obviously).

So has Opress. But grievous goes down to Ventress who Opress battered. Grievous has also lost to 2 different Council members now. Kit Fisto and Eeth Koth. The latter fought him with a wounded arm.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
I still think too many people underestimate Grievous because the show portrays him in a weak light. If you read the novels, Grievous has been a serious match for even the toughest of Jedi. In LoE, even Windu was hard-pressed against Grievous!

Yeah and Savage is a total beast in the show. None of Grievous's high end feats compares to putting down 3 Destroyer droids plus a dozen battle droids or temporarily flooring Count Dooku.

And Mace fought him while using the Force to keep himself stationery. Otherwise we saw him in Obsession and in the CW mini EASILY destroying Grievous with the Force. Just as Opress would.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That wasn't a force attack. It was a sonic blast.

Grievous can't tank Kenobi's force attacks which means Opress would completely crush him with the Force.

It was Force Scream, and obviously had an element of force to it since it blew away Grievous' troops and was ripping up the floor plating.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It was Force Scream, and obviously had an element of force to it since it blew away Grievous' troops and was ripping up the floor plating.

It wasn't a "Force" scream. They explained it to Palaptine that it was something his species does.

And having force behind it does not equate to using "The Force."

End of the day Kenobi can send Grievous flying and disarm him with a force push. So he's defo not tanking Opress's force attacks.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It wasn't a "Force" scream. They explained it to Palaptine that it was something his species does.

And having force behind it does not equate to using "The Force."

Its something the Ithorians can do, but not to that degree. Only when amping with the Force does it reach that degree. The proper name for it is Force Bellow.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your kidding right?

Based on what exactly? Savage is destroying Council members like Adi Gallia. Him and Ventress together were challenging Count Dooku.


What's your point? Him and Maul together were challenging Kenobi too, and yet he still ended up with one arm and a broken leg.
And did you forget that Grievous fought Ki-Adi Mundi and Shaak Ti simultaneously.
That is>>Any of Savage's feats.



As of Cetus Deception, which takes place in 22 BBY. Ventress that early in the Clone Wars got stomped by 2 saber General Grievous with Durge as back up. Fisto whooped on 3 saber Grievous. Jar'Kai Fisto can match Ventress. Shi-Cho's weakness is against multiple foes which is why opponents like Ventress and Grievous tax his defenses, however by adding an additional saber into the mix he can minimize the form's weakeness.

It's rather clear that Kit Fisto is a far better swordsman than you give him credit.



What's your point? Dooku taught Grievous that fear surprise and intimidation were his key strengths. Gallia has shown nothing that proves she could take on 4 saber grievous.

Bullshit. Kenobi was able to break Savage's knee with a few kicks. When he tried that on Grievous, he ended up with the broken foot. In a raw hand to hand Grievous would dominate Savage, he is stronger.






No it wasn't it's shown as being more powerful than even Shaak Ti's TK at 2:34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-3talVkUA



Kenobi is way faster than Opress. So no, I believe Grievous can soundly react to Opress.



Why is this being viewed as a downgrade to Grievous and not an upgrade to Eeth Koth and Fisto.
Plo Koon fought off Ventress with a wounded arm, does that suddenly mean Ventress is<<<<<Opress.
All Council members are not cut from the same pie.
Agen Kolar for example, cannot compare to Shaak Ti.



You grossly underestimate Grievous' high end feats.
He managed to dominate/outduel 5 Jedi, he has to date the highest number of Jedi kills. He has consistently matched Jedi Council members, being able to disarm Shaak Ti twice.



And yet Mace had trouble with Grievous in raw sabers. And Mace Windu is the second most powerful Jedi Master of his age. He is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Savage Opress.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
All Council members are not cut from the same pie.


Exactly.

This is why the ABC argument holds little water. People have different strengths and weaknesses and this affects how they match up against each other.

Yup. Almost like rock-paper-scissors.

Exactly. Ventress for instance couldn't seem to handle Opress' great strength particularly well, but Obi-Wan with his exceptional defence seemed quite capable, yet Ventress managed to knock him out swiftly. Rock beats scissors beats paper beats rock.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
What's your point? Him and Maul together were challenging Kenobi too, and yet he still ended up with one arm and a broken leg.
And did you forget that Grievous fought Ki-Adi Mundi and Shaak Ti simultaneously.
That is>>Any of Savage's feats.

Nope. It's specifically noted those Jedi were all completely exhausted. Opress has battered Ventress (just 2 episodes after she defeated Grievous) and he also stomped on a Council Member. Grievous to my knowledge has never canonically matched or defeated a Council member unless they were already exhausted.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
As of Cetus Deception, which takes place in 22 BBY. Ventress that early in the Clone Wars got stomped by 2 saber General Grievous with Durge as back up. Fisto whooped on 3 saber Grievous. Jar'Kai Fisto can match Ventress. Shi-Cho's weakness is against multiple foes which is why opponents like Ventress and Grievous tax his defenses, however by adding an additional saber into the mix he can minimize the form's weakeness.

It's rather clear that Kit Fisto is a far better swordsman than you give him credit.

It doesn't matter because Opress battered a more powerful Ventress who soundly defeated a better trained Grievous than the one Fisto fought early in the CW.

I'm getting pretty tired of this Fisto wankage all because he was defeating Grievous. There's nothing to put him in Opress's league or Obi-Wan's.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
What's your point? Dooku taught Grievous that fear surprise and intimidation were his key strengths.

Yeah because he can't take Council members in a fair fight. So he has to resort to cheap tactics.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Bullshit. Kenobi was able to break Savage's knee with a few kicks. When he tried that on Grievous, he ended up with the broken foot. In a raw hand to hand Grievous would dominate Savage, he is stronger.

Now I call bullshit. Opress floored Dooku and battered Ventress with his strength. Grievous couldn't do either.

And Kenobi specifically targetted Opress's knee because body shots wern't doing any harm to him at all. And it's not like it took one kick! He kept targeting the same spot.






Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No it wasn't it's shown as being more powerful than even Shaak Ti's TK at 2:34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-3talVkUA



Kenobi is way faster than Opress. So no, I believe Grievous can soundly react to Opress.

Just stop the bullcrap. Grievous can't take Kenobi's Force TK. Or Eeth Koth's for that matter. So he's definitely not taking Opress's.

And what's speed got to do with it? This is getting lame. He's not dodging Opress's Force Wave.




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And yet Mace had trouble with Grievous in raw sabers. And Mace Windu is the second most powerful Jedi Master of his age. He is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Savage Opress.

That was very circumstantial. In an all out in more normal circumstances we've seen Mace simply Force crush Grievous. It wouldn't be very different with Opress. He's a Force beast.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nope. It's specifically noted those Jedi were all completely exhausted. Opress has battered Ventress (just 2 episodes after she defeated Grievous) and he also stomped on a Council Member. Grievous to my knowledge has never canonically matched or defeated a Council member unless they were already exhausted.


Dude...Jango Fett killed a council member that does not mean he could defeat Grievous. And it doesn't matter if they were exhausted, there were 5 of them.




Fisto's performance during Cetus Deception is an obvious low lier in terms of his performance. Jar'Kai Fisto would be in Ventress' league.



Get it through your head Grievous is in Opress's league.





That's why a completely fresh Shaak Ti retreated from him with 2 Jedi Masters as her back up right?
That's why Grievous could go toe to toe with Mace Windu in Labyrinth right?
Grievous is solidly above most of the Council in raw sabers. He has trouble when the Force comes into play, but in many circumstances he can outright dodge Force Pushes.






Grievous dented durasteel starship plating with a punch. That is>>any strength feats Opress has.

Your point?







Except he has shown that he can take TK that can rip up durasteel plates and destroy hallways. Not to mention that he also has shown the ability to take an anti-tank missile point blank and come out with zero damage.


Speed has a lot to do with it. GG is one of the fastest SW characters out there.






Opress would get raped by Mace in an all out force contest so your point is mute.

In many accounts, Grievous has won while defeating VASTLY greater numbers! Grievous has taken more clones out in the show alone than Savage has taken out anyone. Also, Grievous has killed a jedi in the current cartoon. Has Savage? And several times when they sparred, Dooku was hard-pressed to beat Grievous without being taken by surprise!

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dude...Jango Fett killed a council member that does not mean he could defeat Grievous. And it doesn't matter if they were exhausted, there were 5 of them.

Of course it matters they were exhausted. I may be able to beat up 5 martial artists if they had just run the marathon.

And only 2 of them were Council members IIRC.




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Fisto's performance during Cetus Deception is an obvious low lier in terms of his performance. Jar'Kai Fisto would be in Ventress' league.

And I would call Griveous defeating Ventress and Durge a definite low performance for Ventress.

Ah so your differentiating between a Jar Kai Fisto and a single Saber Fisto.. That's interesting.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Get it through your head Grievous is in Opress's league.

Lol. Dude Opress would crush him with the Force.





Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's why a completely fresh Shaak Ti retreated from him with 2 Jedi Masters as her back up right?
That's why Grievous could go toe to toe with Mace Windu in Labyrinth right?
Grievous is solidly above most of the Council in raw sabers. He has trouble when the Force comes into play, but in many circumstances he can outright dodge Force Pushes.

Shaak Ti was exhausted both times she faced Grievous. This was specifically pointed out in the show.

Mace in an all out crushes Grievous with the Force.

Grievous can't dodge an omni- Force Wave that put down mutiple Destroyer droids and battle droids surrounding Opress.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except he has shown that he can take TK that can rip up durasteel plates and destroy hallways. Not to mention that he also has shown the ability to take an anti-tank missile point blank and come out with zero damage.


Speed has a lot to do with it. GG is one of the fastest SW characters out there.

Opress would get raped by Mace in an all out force contest so your point is mute.

Doesn't matter. Because Opress >> Obi-Wan in Force TK. Also no contest. And Grievous has never been able to stand up to Obi-Wan's TK.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Also, Grievous has killed a jedi in the current cartoon. Has Savage?

Please don't comment on characters you obviously know little to nothing about.

Savage killed a Council Member in the last episode he was in.

He battered Ventress in the episode before that (who soundly defeated Grievous without using any Force TK just 3 episodes earlier).

And in his very first episode he killed a Jedi Master without any training in the Force whatsoever.

The one Knight Grievous killed in the new series was not a Master (Dooku tells him for him to kill a Master would be a great achievement for him), and he killed him by shooting him.

As far as I know Grievous has not canonically defeated a Council Member anywhere (apart from where they were completely exhausted).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course it matters they were exhausted. I may be able to beat up 5 martial artists if they had just run the marathon.
No you wouldn't. That's also a red herring. Taking 5 Jedi, two of which being amongst the finest blademasters in the order, even when they are tired is a huge feat.



So?






It's not a low-lier for her considering the tooling Kenobi gives her in the Clone Wars movie.


I am differentiating between Early CW Fisto and mid-late CW Fisto.




Roron Corobb and Shaak Ti's force feats are>>>Opress' and they could not handle Grievous with the force.







Even when she was fresh Shaak Ti consistently retreated from Grievous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-3talVkUA
7:31
Grievous casually bats aside two Masters.
Shaak Ti all but outright admits inferiority to Grievous.



Red herring.


Why not? He's dodged other Jedi's TKs and even if he can't dodge it why can't he tank it? He tanked a way more powerful TK in CW animated series.




No he isn't. Kenobi's TK matched a bloodlusted Darth Vader's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Please don't comment on characters you obviously know little to nothing about.

Savage killed a Council Member in the last episode he was in.

He battered Ventress in the episode before that (who soundly defeated Grievous without using any Force TK just 3 episodes earlier).

And in his very first episode he killed a Jedi Master without any training in the Force whatsoever.

The one Knight Grievous killed in the new series was not a Master (Dooku tells him for him to kill a Master would be a great achievement for him), and he killed him by shooting him.

As far as I know Grievous has not canonically defeated a Council Member anywhere (apart from where they were completely exhausted).
Have you read the comics? Yes grievous has defeated council members! And sorry, I didn't see that episode. Anyway, The point is that Grievous has also had much more training than Savage has.

Savage should win easily, IMO. And no, I'm too lazy and busy to defend my opinion.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No he isn't. Kenobi's TK matched a bloodlusted Darth Vader's.

Good point. However, I can't think of any great force feats from Anakin except for the one in LoE which seemed to be a one time sorta deal.

Originally posted by ares834
Savage should win easily, IMO. And no, I'm too lazy and busy to defend my opinion.



Good point. However, I can't think of any great force feats from Anakin except for the one in LoE which seemed to be a one time sorta deal.

Holding off a multi-kiloton explosion back comes to mind. Also TKing that statue in the ROTS video game.

The explosion feat wasn't that great, but yeah, the statue feat is quite considerable. Completely forgot about that one.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No you wouldn't. That's also a red herring. Taking 5 Jedi, two of which being amongst the finest blademasters in the order, even when they are tired is a huge feat.

And yet after that showing he couldn't even take just 1 Council Member. They were clearly exhausted. It wasn't a fair fight.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's not a low-lier for her considering the tooling Kenobi gives her in the Clone Wars movie..

He beat her. It wasn't a tooling. She disarmed him at one point. And have you completely forgotten the complete tooling Kenobi gives Grievous in ROTS??? He also tools him with the Force in Arc Troopers. And he defeats him while fighting off magnaguards in Grievous Intirgue. There's no competition between Kenobi and Grievous.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am differentiating between Early CW Fisto and mid-late CW Fisto.

Based on what?




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Roron Corobb and Shaak Ti's force feats are>>>Opress' and they could not handle Grievous with the force.

Opress is considerably more powerful than either of them.







Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Even when she was fresh Shaak Ti consistently retreated from Grievous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-3talVkUA
7:31
Grievous casually bats aside two Masters.
Shaak Ti all but outright admits inferiority to Grievous.

Just because she was intimidated by him doesn't mean she was inferior. They never had a fair fight.




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Why not? He's dodged other Jedi's TKs and even if he can't dodge it why can't he tank it? He tanked a way more powerful TK in CW animated series.

Because he's never ever been able to tank Obi-Wan's force attacks. And he's not dodging an Omni-Blast. Or even a huge Force Wave for that matter. End of story.




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No he isn't. Kenobi's TK matched a bloodlusted Darth Vader's.

Now you've just lost it. We've flat out seen Opress chuck Kenobi around with the Force. And he has much greater feats.

Kenobi matching Vader's Force push was clearly a low feat for Vader. Simply because if Vader was that weak with the Force, then Count Dooku would have easily Force Choked him on any of the mutiple times they've fought.

There's nothing to suggest Obi-Wan could do the Jedi Statue feat. Or even anything close to that.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Have you read the comics? Yes grievous has defeated council members! And sorry, I didn't see that episode. Anyway, The point is that Grievous has also had much more training than Savage has.

Which Council member has he defeated in the comics?

More training? Lol. Do you know how much training in the Force Grievous has?? Oh that's right. He doesn't even have the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which Council member has he defeated in the comics?

More training? Lol. Do you know how much training in the Force Grievous has?? Oh that's right. He doesn't even have the Force.
I was talking about Lightsaber training. Savage is relatively new to the Force. He was enhanced by Mother Talzan to use the Force. Grievous is a warrior with a lifetime of experience of war and fighting. He is a brilliant tactical genious. He was trained by Dooku for way longer than Savage was.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
I was talking about Lightsaber training. Savage is relatively new to the Force. He was enhanced by Mother Talzan to use the Force. Grievous is a warrior with a lifetime of experience of war and fighting. He is a brilliant tactical genious. He was trained by Dooku for way longer than Savage was.

People have this misconception that the only combat training Savage ever had was a few weeks training from Dooku. That's not true at all.

Savage was from a warrior tribe so also has a lifetime of experience at fighting. In fact the guy was able to kill a Jedi Master with no training from Count Dooku whatsoever.

But what gives him the definitive advantage over Grievous is his Raw Power in the Force. The training he's had from Count Dooku and will get from from Darth Maul is honing that Raw Force power he has.

Anyway Ventress also had much more training from Count Dooku than Opress did, and yet Opress battered her (and she battered Grievous just 3 episodes earlier). So the point's moot anyway.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
People have this misconception that the only combat training Savage ever had was a few weeks training from Dooku. That's not true at all.

It might as well be considering how Dooku treated him in their training session and in the fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet after that showing he couldn't even take just 1 Council Member. They were clearly exhausted. It wasn't a fair fight.
Will you please stop using Council Member as a power level. It's not. Just because someone is a Council Member does not mean they are a top tier duelist. For example Luminara Unduli is a vastly superior swordsman to the likes of Coleman Trebor, but Unduli never served on the Council.






Lol wut? That was not a complete tooling. Grievous was overwhelming Kenobi's defenses at one point. What the hell do you mean tools with the force? Getting off one force push is not a tooling.






Uhhh based on him losing to early Clone Wars Ventress who was casually defeated by two-sabered Grievous. Then he went on to push back 4 sabered Grievous.






I hope you are joking. Force wise Corobb's TK can peal up durasteel plates and blow away dozens of Super Battle droids. And Shaak Ti made a Dark Side nexus her *****. Shaak Ti would dominate Savage Opress.



Yes it does. That's exactly what it means. If she though she could beat him in a fair fight she would have disarmed him and had Corobb and the other Jedi Master secure the Chancellor.




Kenobi has a greater force showing than Savage. He matched Anakin's TK. And Anakin did this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8R_8AJkHcA
3:51





That is such silly logic. We've seen Savage chuck Dooku across the room as well. You know the same Dooku who repeatedly humiliates him with the force.


Except Dooku has force choked him and made him his ***** with the force. So your logic fails.


Except you know matching his TK, and them both being flown back the exact same distance.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
People have this misconception that the only combat training Savage ever had was a few weeks training from Dooku. That's not true at all.

Savage was from a warrior tribe so also has a lifetime of experience at fighting. In fact the guy was able to kill a Jedi Master with no training from Count Dooku whatsoever.

But what gives him the definitive advantage over Grievous is his Raw Power in the Force. The training he's had from Count Dooku and will get from from Darth Maul is honing that Raw Force power he has.

Anyway Ventress also had much more training from Count Dooku than Opress did, and yet Opress battered her (and she battered Grievous just 3 episodes earlier). So the point's moot anyway.
Then why has Grievous killed so many jedi if force powers are so important. You make it sound like Grievous is a weakling. He was leader of the Kaleesh army during the Huk War and the Supreme Commander of the Armies of the Confederacy now. He beat both Durge and Assage for that title in the comics.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It might as well be considering how Dooku treated him in their training session

Opress isn't a fencer. So certainly wasn't going to compete in a pure fencing match with The Master Fencer without any force training.

Originally posted by Nephthys
and in the fight.

Yeah any Noob can floor Dooku.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda



Lol wut? That was not a complete tooling. Grievous was overwhelming Kenobi's defenses at one point. What the hell do you mean tools with the force? Getting off one force push is not a tooling.

No he hit him by surprise with a third arm.

LOL The Force Push had him running like a girl. And it was 2 Force pushes. And guess what? He didn't dodge either.






Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uhhh based on him losing to early Clone Wars Ventress who was casually defeated by two-sabered Grievous. Then he went on to push back 4 sabered Grievous.

Uhhhhh Fisto's fight with Grievous was also early CW. Grievous was never a match for Ventress. He's not even a match for Eeth Koth. So that was obviously a low showing for Ventress. The T-Canon CW series has clarified the correct power levels for us.

And Opress defeated Ventress just 3 episodes after she defeated Grievous anyway. So you have no point.






Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I hope you are joking. Force wise Corobb's TK can peal up durasteel plates and blow away dozens of Super Battle droids. And Shaak Ti made a Dark Side nexus her *****. Shaak Ti would dominate Savage Opress.

Your beyond help if you actually think that.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes it does. That's exactly what it means. If she though she could beat him in a fair fight she would have disarmed him and had Corobb and the other Jedi Master secure the Chancellor.

No because she's intimidated by him after only having fought him when she was exhausted.




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kenobi has a greater force showing than Savage. He matched Anakin's TK. And Anakin did this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8R_8AJkHcA
3:51

Yeah Anakin also Force Waved the Son and Daughter to the ground, so I guess Obi-Wan can too right??? Since he stalemated a force push with him??

You seem to be going to absolutely ridiculous levels to try and prove pretty much everyone is better than Opress in every way.

The guy is a Beast who battered Ventress, Floored Dooku at one point, and Force Waved Anakin and Obi-Wan all over the place. That's all the evidence you need of his power.





Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That is such silly logic. We've seen Savage chuck Dooku across the room as well. You know the same Dooku who repeatedly humiliates him with the force.


Except Dooku has force choked him and made him his ***** with the force. So your logic fails.

LOL and what this is supposed to prove Opress is weaker than Obi-Wan and Shaak Ti in the Force???

To your first point Dooku was taken by surprise by Opress and then was probably tired from fighting both him and Ventress.

As for your second point it was before Opress had any Force training. And you know that! Your just going to ridiculous levels to lowball Opress.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except you know matching his TK, and them both being flown back the exact same distance.


So I guess Obi-Wan can Force Wave the Son and Daughter into submission since that's what Anakin did and he did stalemate Anakin in a Force Push right????

Anakin's Force TK feats are possibly the most inconsistent out of all the characters in the Mythos. So you have no point.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Then why has Grievous killed so many jedi if force powers are so important.

They have to be powerful with the Force to defeat him. I never denied that. But Obi-Wan always tools him with the Force. And Opress's TK is miles more powerful than Obi-Wan's.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
You make it sound like Grievous is a weakling. He was leader of the Kaleesh army during the Huk War and the Supreme Commander of the Armies of the Confederacy now. He beat both Durge and Assage for that title in the comics.

He can't defeat the most powerful Jedi Masters.

Ventress has defeated a better trained Grievous without even using any Force TK. 3 episodes later Opress beat her down without using any Force TK either. And when Force TK does come into the equation Ventress would destroy Grievous, and Opress TK > Ventress's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
-snip-
I am going to ignore canon for the sake of my arguments and only take into account TCW's depiction of Grievous.
-snip-


http://www.craigboyce.com/w/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Ernie_Facepalm1.jpg

Concession accepted.
Also you really think Shaak Ti would lose to Savage Opress? http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/laugh.gif

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
http://www.craigboyce.com/w/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Ernie_Facepalm1.jpg

Concession accepted.
Also you really think Shaak Ti would lose to Savage Opress? http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/laugh.gif
Thank you! It is still the same grievous! The current clone wars just has too many major characters that can't die. That is why Grievous never kills anyone anymore. Same reason why the Stormtroopers could not hit the main characters in the Original trilogy

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
http://www.craigboyce.com/w/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Ernie_Facepalm1.jpg

What??

Exactly what canon did I ignore??

Your the one who keeps ignoring T-Canon proof that Opress > Ventress > Grievous.

And that Obi-Wan's Force TK defeats Grievous EVERY TIME he uses it on him, and Opress's TK >> Obi-Wan's.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Concession accepted.
Also you really think Shaak Ti would lose to Savage Opress?

What exaactly has she done to show she's even a match for Ventress let alone Opress??

Forget it. YOU KEEP IGNORING CANON.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What??

Exactly what canon did I ignore??

Your the one who keeps ignoring T-Canon proof that Opress > Ventress > Grievous.

And that Obi-Wan's Force TK defeats Grievous EVERY TIME he uses it on him, and Opress's TK >> Obi-Wan's.

A>B>C logic doesn't work. This isn't DBZ dude. Battles in Star Wars are circumstantial.
If we want to go by A>B>C logic then
Kenobi>=Maul+Savage>Maul>Kenobi

You ignore all of Grievous' fights and feats in the original Clone Wars, and ignore all of Grievous' fights in the comics and novels.


Dominate Galen Marek in sabers and then proceed to whoop on him in the force. Not to mention taming Felucia a DARK SIDE NEXUS. Oh and escaping the capital of the empire when the Great Jedi Purge was at it's height.


How about you play/read TFU, or watch other material aside from TCW. Shaak Ti is hyped by Kenobi, the ROTS novel and TFU.
All you keep saying is
SAVAGE HAS KILLED AND DUELED COUNCIL MEMBERS. Who cares if they were on the council if they were featless. Coleman Trebor got killed by 3 blaster shots by Jango Fett. Does that mean Fett could defeat Grievous on an even playing field? No.
Adi Gallia is featless. The only feat she has is dueling on par with 2 sabered Grievous.

And @ your statement that the Jedi were exhausted so it wasn't a fair fight...dude it was a 5 on 1 and you say Grievous was the one who was being unfair.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
A>B>C logic doesn't work. This isn't DBZ dude. Battles in Star Wars are circumstantial.
If we want to go by A>B>C logic then
Kenobi>=Maul+Savage>Maul>Kenobi

You ignore all of Grievous' fights and feats in the original Clone Wars, and ignore all of Grievous' fights in the comics and novels.


Dominate Galen Marek in sabers and then proceed to whoop on him in the force. Not to mention taming Felucia a DARK SIDE NEXUS. Oh and escaping the capital of the empire when the Great Jedi Purge was at it's height.


How about you play/read TFU, or watch other material aside from TCW. Shaak Ti is hyped by Kenobi, the ROTS novel and TFU.
All you keep saying is
SAVAGE HAS KILLED AND DUELED COUNCIL MEMBERS. Who cares if they were on the council if they were featless. Coleman Trebor got killed by 3 blaster shots by Jango Fett. Does that mean Fett could defeat Grievous on an even playing field? No.
Adi Gallia is featless. The only feat she has is dueling on par with 2 sabered Grievous.

And @ your statement that the Jedi were exhausted so it wasn't a fair fight...dude it was a 5 on 1 and you say Grievous was the one who was being unfair.
I think that Grievous is automatically underestimated in threads just because he doesn't use the Force. If anyone has proven that Force isn't everything in a fight, it's Grievous.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
I think that Grievous is automatically underestimated in threads just because he doesn't use the Force. If anyone has proven that Force isn't everything in a fight, it's Grievous.

Also the Maul brother wank is really getting out of hand. Savage is powerful but to say that he can stomp Grievous no contest is taking it far. He is no Mace Windu and he certainly is no Count Dooku when it comes to the force.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also the Maul brother wank is really getting out of hand. Savage is powerful but to say that he can stomp Grievous no contest is taking it far. He is no Mace Windu and he certainly is no Count Dooku when it comes to the force.
Agreed! Grievous isn't the scourge of the galaxy for nothing!

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also the Maul brother wank is really getting out of hand. Savage is powerful but to say that he can stomp Grievous no contest is taking it far. He is no Mace Windu and he certainly is no Count Dooku when it comes to the force.

Agreed. Grievous takes Sabers and all out. He will be able to deal with Savage's physical strenght well, one of Savage's main strenghts.

Well I'm personally finding the continued Grievous wankage over the top. Especially since he's been beaten by every single Master he's faced in TCW series.

Dooku even says for Grievous to defeat a true Jedi MASTER would be a real accomplishment for him.

And what Jedi has defeated Opress? Just Obi-Wan and even that was only like the 4th or 5th time he fought Obi-Wan.

So I'm sorry to all you Grievous lovers, but the days of him being some bad ass Jedi Killer are gone.

Opress is a much more dangerous Jedi Killer (in direct combat that is).

We also have clear proof from the most recent episodes of the show that Opress > Ventress > Grievous.

And if Grievous is such a bad ass then why did Dooku want to use Opress to help him kill Sidious instead of using Grievous?? That would make no sense if what you guys are trying to claim was true.

Also Misukage Yoda, why were you going on about what an amazing feat Obi-Wan accomplishes in fighting off Maul and Savage if you think Savage is some weakling whose below Grievous even?? If that was true Kenobi would have just Force pushed Opress out of commision, and he would have been almost a non-factor in Sabers. Making Obi-Wan's feat nothing special at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well I'm personally finding the continued Grievous wankage over the top. Especially since he's been beaten by every single Master he's faced in TCW series.

Dooku even says for Grievous to defeat a true Jedi MASTER would be a real accomplishment for him.

And what Jedi has defeated Opress? Just Obi-Wan and even that was only like the 4th or 5th time he fought Obi-Wan.

So I'm sorry to all you Grievous lovers, but the days of him being some bad ass Jedi Killer are gone.

Opress is a much more dangerous Jedi Killer (in direct combat that is).

We also have clear proof from the most recent episodes of the show that Opress > Ventress > Grievous.

And if Grievous is such a bad ass then why did Dooku want to use Opress to help him kill Sidious instead of using Grievous?? That would make no sense if what you guys are trying to claim was true.

Also Misukage Yoda, why were you going on about what an amazing feat Obi-Wan accomplishes in fighting off Maul and Savage if you think Savage is some weakling whose below Grievous even?? If that was true Kenobi would have just Force pushed Opress out of commision, and he would have been almost a non-factor in Sabers. Making Obi-Wan's feat nothing special at all.
I honestly think that this was a really good idea for a thread! So many great debates! Although I still think Grievous would win, You have made a very good case for Savage!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well I'm personally finding the continued Grievous wankage over the top. Especially since he's been beaten by every single Master he's faced in TCW series.
That's because the directors of TCW series don't give a shit about the established powerscale.


Grievous has bested plenty of Masters in the past. Including members of the Council. That being said he needs the factors of fear, surprise, or intimidation. Grievous is a master strategist though, and is a way smarter fighter than Opress is.


You say this like he's faced off against all the best duelists of the order. Make no mistake, he is no Grievous. Grievous has faced off against nearly every master duelist in the order sans Yoda himself.

And yet he has the most onscreen Jedi kills to date, even with TCW's nerfing of him.


Opress is a savage beast. A brute with no strategy whatsoever, in a 1v1 with a master strategist and cunning warrior like Grievous, the General would be at an advantage because Savage has neither Maul nor Ventress to help him.


Will you please stop with this A>B>C logic bullshit.
We also have Ventress in earlier episodes calling Grievous 'my lord' and addessing him as her better. Why? Because that was around the time when Grievous whooped on her ass.
And yet that was around the time Grievous lost to Kit Fisto. So by that logic.
Kit Fisto>Grievous>Early CW Asajj
and yet the same early CW Ventress shat all over Fisto. A>B>C logic does not work in Star Wars.



He was going to use Ventress to try and kill Sidious before he used Savage. And yet you just said that Opress>Ventress.
That's silly logic. It's rather clear that any plan of taking out Sidious would take years. Neither Opress and Dooku nor Ventress and Dooku would have a chance in hell of defeating Sidious. He'd crush Ventress in an instance



Silly logic and reasoning. Kenobi's feat would have been impressive if he pwnd Ventress and Grievous as well. Why? Because those are all people who prior to that episode were believed to be on Kenobi's level in raw sabers.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's because the directors of TCW series don't give a shit about the established powerscale.

Doesn't matter if you like it or not. TCW is T-Canon so takes precedence in terms of power scales over all the C-Canon evidence, especially those which pre-date TCW Series.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Grievous has bested plenty of Masters in the past. Including members of the Council. That being said he needs the factors of fear, surprise, or intimidation. Grievous is a master strategist though, and is a way smarter fighter than Opress is.

This I agree with.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You say this like he's faced off against all the best duelists of the order. Make no mistake, he is no Grievous. Grievous has faced off against nearly every master duelist in the order sans Yoda himself.

He was soundly beaten by Ventress in Sabers. Imagine if she used the Force as well she would have pretty much stomped. So anyone more powerful than her is going to defeat him without too much trouble. And that includes Opress whose greater than Ventress in Close Combat and in the Force.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Opress is a savage beast. A brute with no strategy whatsoever, in a 1v1 with a master strategist and cunning warrior like Grievous, the General would be at an advantage because Savage has neither Maul nor Ventress to help him.

Don't see how that will help when Opress is throwing him around with the Force. And it's not like he can't hold his own in Sabers either. Unless Grievous has help I don't see what he could do. Take him by surprise maybe? Just Maybe.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Will you please stop with this A>B>C logic bullshit.
We also have Ventress in earlier episodes calling Grievous 'my lord' and addessing him as her better. Why? Because that was around the time when Grievous whooped on her ass.
And yet that was around the time Grievous lost to Kit Fisto. So by that logic.
Kit Fisto>Grievous>Early CW Asajj
and yet the same early CW Ventress shat all over Fisto. A>B>C logic does not work in Star Wars.

I've heard this crap before. Her calling him Lord means nothing except Dooku put him in charge. I mean Vader took orders from Tarkin is that supposed to mean Tarkin can take Vader in a fight?! LOL.

And Grievous says to her after that "Your probably my equal in combat", to which she says "Dooku may have taught you to swing a Saber but don't think that makes us equals!"

Grievous beating Ventress was obviously a low showing for her! I mean unless you think Eeth Koth > Ventress! TCW series power scales take priority.

And A>B>C is very relevant here. When Ventress fought Grievous in CW it was a more powerful Ventress and a better trained Grievous, and the fight shortly before Opress battered Ventress.

Opress is more powerful than Ventress who is more powerful than Grievous. And that is the power scale mid-late CW.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He was going to use Ventress to try and kill Sidious before he used Savage. And yet you just said that Opress>Ventress.
That's silly logic. It's rather clear that any plan of taking out Sidious would take years. Neither Opress and Dooku nor Ventress and Dooku would have a chance in hell of defeating Sidious. He'd crush Ventress in an instance

He was never going to use Grievous. That's for sure.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Silly logic and reasoning. Kenobi's feat would have been impressive if he pwnd Ventress and Grievous as well. Why? Because those are all people who prior to that episode were believed to be on Kenobi's level in raw sabers.

If Kenobi fought off Ventress and Grievous and chopped up Grievous but then had Ventress knocking him out with the Force, it really wouldn't have been that Uber at all. Especially considering Ventress has fought off Obi-Wan and Anakin on multiple occassions.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Doesn't matter if you like it or not. TCW is T-Canon so takes precedence in terms of power scales over all the C-Canon evidence, especially those which pre-date TCW Series.

It's all about interpretation.



Soundly? Disarming Grievous of 1 of his sabers is hardly soundly defeating him.





Grievous using the unorthodox, using repulsorlifts and using 5 sabers with his feet, retreating then ambushing, dodging and tanking Force pushes.



It's not crap. It's fact that Grievous>Early CW Ventress.


That was in a later episode kid.

Will you please get it through your skull that Ventress got stronger through the Clone Wars? Yes Ventress is weaker than Eeth Koth after Dooku first found her. She got her ass handed to her by PADAWAN Anakin.



No because it's circular logic. And it's faulty. If that's all you have you might as well conceed now.



I am not convinced Ventress is weaker than Savage. And duels don't work like that unless it's a Master duelist like Yoda or Sidious. Yoda, Dooku, Mace, and Sidious are on a different tier than the rest of the PT duelists. The rest are fair game in vs. matches.


No shit. Grievous wasn't a Sith.





If Kenobi fought off Ventress and Grievous and chopped up Grievous but then had Ventress knocking him out with the Force, it really wouldn't have been that Uber at all. Especially considering Ventress has fought off Obi-Wan and Anakin on multiple occassions.

Uhh yes it would have. If Kenobi could guard against 4 sabered Grievous and Jar'Kai Ventress at once and succeed in disarming the General of one of his lightsabers and breaking his leg would certainly be impressive.
Don't be naive Ventress has never been able to fight against a serious, focused Kenobi and Skywalker and come out anywhere close to being on top.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's all about interpretation.



Soundly? Disarming Grievous of 1 of his sabers is hardly soundly defeating him.
Thank You! And He did defeat both Durge and Assage together for the title of Supreme Commander!




Grievous using the unorthodox, using repulsorlifts and using 5 sabers with his feet, retreating then ambushing, dodging and tanking Force pushes.



It's not crap. It's fact that Grievous>Early CW Ventress.


That was in a later episode kid.

Will you please get it through your skull that Ventress got stronger through the Clone Wars? Yes Ventress is weaker than Eeth Koth after Dooku first found her. She got her ass handed to her by PADAWAN Anakin.
Grievous vs Padawan Anakin would have been fun to see.



No because it's circular logic. And it's faulty. If that's all you have you might as well conceed now.



I am not convinced Ventress is weaker than Savage. And duels don't work like that unless it's a Master duelist like Yoda or Sidious. Yoda, Dooku, Mace, and Sidious are on a different tier than the rest of the PT duelists. The rest are fair game in vs. matches.


No shit. Grievous wasn't a Sith.





If Kenobi fought off Ventress and Grievous and chopped up Grievous but then had Ventress knocking him out with the Force, it really wouldn't have been that Uber at all. Especially considering Ventress has fought off Obi-Wan and Anakin on multiple occassions.

Uhh yes it would have. If Kenobi could guard against 4 sabered Grievous and Jar'Kai Ventress at once and succeed in disarming the General of one of his lightsabers and breaking his leg would certainly be impressive.
Don't be naive Ventress has never been able to fight against a serious, focused Kenobi and Skywalker and come out anywhere close to being on top.

I don't get why people still speculate that Opress lacks saber skills and wins only because of strength. His defense skills are quite good, he never failed to block a lightsaber attack. Even, when Kenobi used unexpected Jarkaj Ataru that was overwhelming and driving back even Maul, Opress still blocked and dodged all attacks apart from kicks.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda



Soundly? Disarming Grievous of 1 of his sabers is hardly soundly defeating him.

Lol what? Chopping off his arm putting him to the ground with weapons deignited, having him at her mercy is not a sound defeat??

And that was without even using any Force TK.




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No because it's circular logic. And it's faulty. If that's all you have you might as well conceed now.

Of course it works. Ventress proves herself to be Grievous superior in Saber combat, and Opress proved himself to be Ventress's superior in Saber combat.

And this was all in the same period of the CW. The Ventress/Opress fight was only a short time after the Ventress/Grievous fight.


The only possible argument you could use is that Ventress would have fought better with both her Sabers. And I'm sure she would. But I seriously doubt it would make such a huge difference that it would shift from Opress Battering Ventress to Ventress defeating Opress.

And the when Force TK comes into it Opress again is clearly superior to Ventress and Grievous really won't stand a chance against either of them.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No shit. Grievous wasn't a Sith.

As if Dooku would give a crap about that if he thought Grievous would be better suited to help him defeat Sidious.





Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda


Uhh yes it would have. If Kenobi could guard against 4 sabered Grievous and Jar'Kai Ventress at once and succeed in disarming the General of one of his lightsabers and breaking his leg would certainly be impressive.
Don't be naive Ventress has never been able to fight against a serious, focused Kenobi and Skywalker and come out anywhere close to being on top.

It would have been some what impressive if he did it without resorting to the Force.

Still fact is in an all out he would just keep force tossing Grievous aside and focusing on Ventress. Wouldn't have been all that amazing at all.

Maul and Opress >> Ventress and Grievous.

So as it was Obi-Wan's feat WAS very Impressive, but only due to the opponents being so obviously Powerful.

Oh and btw an enraged Ventress has knocked out Obi-Wan in 7 seconds while fighting off Anakin.

I don't think Savage would've been able to take on 5 jedi... not as easy as Grievous did anyway.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol what? Chopping off his arm putting him to the ground with weapons deignited, having him at her mercy is not a sound defeat??
Clearly not because Grievous was still alive.


What she did really isn't all that different from what Kit Fisto did. And I hardly consider that a sound defeat.






Okay maybe I should use an example since this seems to be over your head.
Trevor Berbick beat Muhammad Ali back in '89 at the "Drama in the Bahamas."
Ali beat George Foreman.
That does not magically mean that Berbick can automatically pwn George Foreman. If you can't apply that logic to boxing, you can't apply that silly logic to lightsaber battles


I hardly consider that fight to be a good representation of Ventress. The brothers had fear, and intimidation on their side.

I disagree.


Opress is not a force God bro. He floors some people when he is angry. That's about it.



If you want to challenge Sidious you need 2 fully trained Sith. Neither Grievous, Ventress, or Opress qualify. And this has nothing to do with the debate at hand.




No it would have been impressive, and you are implying he could not do that when fighting Savage. If he can consistently land in force enhanced kicks he can land in a force push.
I don't know the circumstances for that fight, but I doubt Kenobi or Anakin were in the states of mind like Kenobi was when fighting Savage and Maul.

Originally posted by Arhael
I don't get why people still speculate that Opress lacks saber skills and wins only because of strength. ...he never failed to block a lightsaber attack. Even, when Kenobi used unexpected Jarkaj Ataru that was overwhelming and driving back even Maul, Opress still blocked and dodged all attacks apart from kicks.

Uhm, he lost an arm. The cause? A lightsaber. He failed to block it.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Uhm, he lost an arm. The cause? A lightsaber. He failed to block it.
Right. After having his leg broken. Broken because of kicks from which both brothers failed to defend. Anyway, thanks, duh.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Uhm, he lost an arm. The cause? A lightsaber. He failed to block it.
Dif you see the Lair of Grievous episode? he lost his LEGS and survived. He is a survivor. Savage lost an arm and had a broken knee because of Obi-Wan and he was done. Limping away. Grievous can also use his talon-like feet to stay planted on the ground if Savage tries lifting him with the force.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Uhm, he lost an arm. The cause? A lightsaber. He failed to block it.

And the reason he failed to block it was because Obi-Wan just kicked his knee in. Something Obi-Wan had been working on the whole fight.

Originally posted by Arhael
I don't get why people still speculate that Opress lacks saber skills and wins only because of strength. His defense skills are quite good, he never failed to block a lightsaber attack. Even, when Kenobi used unexpected Jarkaj Ataru that was overwhelming and driving back even Maul, Opress still blocked and dodged all attacks apart from kicks.

Yeah I don't get it either. Opress has shown he has more than just strength in a fight.

And it's not like Obi-Wan stomped on him in Sabers the way he stomped Grievous in ROTS.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Clearly not because Grievous was still alive.

Because she CHOSE not to finish him off, and because Grievous screamed to his droids for help!


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
What she did really isn't all that different from what Kit Fisto did. And I hardly consider that a sound defeat.

Except Kit Fisto never actually finished defeating Grievous, whilst Ventress did.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Okay maybe I should use an example since this seems to be over your head.
Trevor Berbick beat Muhammad Ali back in '89 at the "Drama in the Bahamas."
Ali beat George Foreman.
That does not magically mean that Berbick can automatically pwn George Foreman. If you can't apply that logic to boxing, you can't apply that silly logic to lightsaber battles

What is this s***? Ali would have pounded on Berbick at the time he beat/embarrased Foreman.

Opress's fight with Ventress was JUST 3 EPISODES after Ventress pounded on Grievous. That alone proves Grievous isn't stomping him in Sabers. When you add Force TK it's just another ball game. GG's finished then.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I hardly consider that fight to be a good representation of Ventress. The brothers had fear, and intimidation on their side.

Again don't know what your on about. You seem to use every excuse in the book to downplay Opress's feats.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Opress is not a force God bro. He floors some people when he is angry. That's about it.



He's clearly above Obi-Wan and Ventress in that department based on feats and on him force chucking Obi-Wan and Anakin all over the place.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because she CHOSE not to finish him off, and because Grievous screamed to his droids for help!
Prove that she chose not to finish him. In the duel, Grievous kicks her down, and she cuts one arm off. That's pretty even for Grievous.





Fisto's performance was just as good as Ventress' except he did it with one saber.


That's my point.


When did I ever say it'd be a stomp? Also pay attention to the location. It is in the Lair of General Grievous. His home turf. Grievous has a significant advantage in that alone.



I don't find him impressive at all. You on the other hand wank him to no end as evidenced by your TFU Vader vs. Savage Opress thread. The fact that you think Savage is even on Vader's level is a testament to your wankage of him.




No that's not good proof at all. Ventress also choked Kenobi and Skywalker, Opress also choked Dooku, you mean to tell me that that means he is on Dooku's level force wise?

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Well, Savage is not as powerful as Maul is, and besides, Grievous has killed many Jedi, all of which were force-sensitive (obviously). I still think too many people underestimate Grievous because the show portrays him in a weak light. If you read the novels, Grievous has been a serious match for even the toughest of Jedi. In LoE, even Windu was hard-pressed against Grievous!

Hold up bub,Mace stalemated that duel because Grievous was learning Vaapad,.
source (Labyrinth of Evil)pp318-320. He was close but his results weren't Vaapad.

In their second short lived contest Mace used Force Crush to crush his lungs.
The wheezing,the coughing in ROTS was due to Mace.

Good point,he killed many Jedi that's why I think Maul vs Grievous would make a good fight in CW.
I think the show portrays him weak,too. I wouldn't under estimate Savage there is more to these brothers than the CW is willing to show us.
Let's see if Savage can survive the training Maul endured when he was trained by Sidious.

Double blade gives Opress better chance to win. Like with Jarkai he would need to do less movements to block all attacks.

Damn this is great debating you guys are awesome !!!! thanks for the thread
Another Great One!!!!! Darth Power calm down man you got really heated if you had TK
you would Probably Force Pushed or Waved the fur off a Bantha !!!!!!

Originally posted by Arhael
Double blade gives Opress better chance to win. Like with Jarkai he would need to do less movements to block all attacks.

He needs to be elusive, and protect his center line.
His double saber is definitely a factor in his training
I can hear Maul telling him there is no pain where strength lies

Maul will train him first in Juyo then Teras Kasi. Then strengthen his Force Abilities
Savage will be back but not as the Savage who lost to Kenobi

Something far worst than he was before.

Originally posted by juyomaster34

Savage will be back but not as the Savage who lost to Kenobi

Something far worst than he was before.
He actually gave very good performance against Kenobi. Kenobi's lightsaber attacks were overwhelming even Maul and, yet, Opress blocked and dodged all of them missing only kicks.

Kenobi showed that he could land kicks to either of them but Maul's legs and lower torso are invulnerable to kicks, so it was wiser choice to go for Opress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And the reason he failed to block it was because Obi-Wan just kicked his knee in. Something Obi-Wan had been working on the whole fight.


Not only that. Look, in a whole fight, he gets a lot of kicks from Kenobi. We can see him on the ground on his kneels (in this sequence, when Maul choked Kenobi)... Kenobi in this fight, and Maul in prevous, clearly proved, that they are on very different league, then Savage.
It looks like, in terms of sabers, Savage is more like on par with Grievous, than with Maul or Kenobi.

And it's not like Obi-Wan stomped on him in Sabers the way he stomped Grievous in ROTS.

Yes, he stomped. It was 2v1, and Savage do a lot of mistakes, and finally lost his arm.

And the when Force TK comes into it Opress again is clearly superior to Ventress and Grievous really won't stand a chance against either of them.

Superior to Ventress? He's unable to succesfully use TK against his opponents. He can use it, only when he is angry, and his opponent is offguard. He has some potencial, probably higher then people like Obi-Wan, it doesn't gives him any advantage over them.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Clearly not because Grievous was still alive.

Anakin and Obi-Wan also were alive after fight with Dooku. It means, that he wont defeat them?

Originally posted by Zett
It looks like, in terms of sabers, Savage is more like on par with Grievous, than with Maul or Kenobi.

I'd put him on par with Ventress in Sabers (who is above Grievous). He's actually battered her when she was only using a single saber, but I do believe her second saber would make a difference.



Originally posted by Zett
Yes, he stomped. It was 2v1, and Savage do a lot of mistakes, and finally lost his arm.

Obi-Wan was clearly Opress's superior, but it wasn't the kind of stomp he gave Grievous in ROTS.



Originally posted by Zett
Superior to Ventress? He's unable to succesfully use TK against his opponents.

Hey? He almost always does. Most recently he smacked back and disarmed Adi Gallia with it.

Originally posted by Zett
He can use it, only when he is angry, and his opponent is offguard. He has some potencial, probably higher then people like Obi-Wan, it doesn't gives him any advantage over them.


It's not just potential. He's actually displayed the raw power. And I know he was especially enraged when he force choked Dooku and Ventress, but it doesn't take much for him just to get a bit angry.

So yeah he might need to be somewhat angry, but when he is his Force Tk is definitely above Kenobi or Ventress in raw power.

N.b. Ventress was actually angry when she beat down Grievous. But we can't dismiss her feat on that basis.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove that she chose not to finish him. In the duel, Grievous kicks her down, and she cuts one arm off. That's pretty even for Grievous.

Funny thing is Ares had told me to calm down another time when I attacked this claim of yours. He was saying Mizukage Yoda is clearly being sarcastic. Lol.

No your bigging Grievous up way too much and giving him way more credit than he deserves. He's no match for Ventress. Or Kit Fisto for that matter.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Fisto's performance was just as good as Ventress' except he did it with one saber.

He chopped off an arm with just one Saber. Yet did not have him grounded, with all weapons deignited and/or defeated at that point like Ventress did.

In fact Grievous wasn't attacking him with all 4 Sabers when he did that.

And after that Fisto fought him with 2 Sabers plus used Force Tk on him, and still hadn't defeated him after a decently long fight. (Though he clearly would have).

Ventress soundly defeating him (which everyone can see but you) just in Sabers was more impressive to me.




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I don't find him impressive at all. You on the other hand wank him to no end as evidenced by your TFU Vader vs. Savage Opress thread. The fact that you think Savage is even on Vader's level is a testament to your wankage of him.




Oh geez. First of all I made that thread after the end of season 4, when it looked like neither Obi-Wan nor Ventress could match Opress at all.

Second of all I never once said or implied they were equals.

In fact after Lucien said this:

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He's powerful, but unrefined and brutish. I think by TFU, Vader's gained enough finesse and a tactical mind to beat Oppress.

This was my response:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Good answer. Will have to see next season if Maul can make a more skilled warrior out of him.

That thread is no longer relevant at all with what we know now, so I have no idea why darksadow bumped it.

It's like in the days people were treating Grievous as some Saber God. People like you used to say he would Stomp Vader in sabers. It would be pretty pointless me bumping one of those threads now and saying: Bull crap!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'd put him on par with Ventress in Sabers (who is above Grievous). He's actually battered her when she was only using a single saber, but I do believe her second saber would make a difference.

I see that different. For me, he is definitly on par with Grievous. Savage has some advantage over Ventress at the begining. But after she adapted herself to fight him with one sword, this fight become pretty equal. Despite this, I believe, that she has big disadvantage, fighting with one sword. She was probably forced to use Makashi (which isn't the best technique against Opress).

Ventress is more skilled and doesn't do a lot of mistakes. Savage on the other hand does a lot of simple mistakes. He may be a nice teampartner, especially, when opponent concentrate himself on his partner. But in one vs one fight, he sucks.

In fact, he destroy Adi. But she also wasn't the best fighter (she wasn't that bad, but people from Kit Fisto's league were a way better), she lost to Grievous (ep4, s3). I'm not sure if she lost duel, but she definitly lost a battle. And even in a duel, Grievous looks like the one, who has an advantage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan was clearly Opress's superior, but it wasn't the kind of stomp he gave Grievous in ROTS.

For me, it was even more. Obi-Wan stomped Grievous in one vs one. He also stomped Savage, in one vs two... At the begining of this last sequence, when he lost an arm, we can see him on his kneels (the same moment, when Maul throws Kenobi on the wall).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's not just potential. He's actually displayed the raw power. And I know he was especially enraged when he force choked Dooku and Ventress, but it doesn't take much for him just to get a bit angry.


He was able to choke Dooku, probably because Dooku doesn't treat him as a threat anymore, after his: I can't, he's too powerful. And then he surprised him.

Opress seems to me to be quite good with Saber. He blocks all saber attacks, yet, he misses a lot of unarmed attacks as if his whole focus is on opponents saber alone. He disarmed Ventress, yet, missed plenty of punches. He attacked Maul and Maul was on the defensive, yet, couldn't counter wrist lock. He blocked all Kenobi's lightsaber attacks, yet, kept receiving kicks.

By the way I was really surprised how Maul handled him. It looked like Maul used very subtle Makashi moves blending with Opress' attacks and deflecting it sideways instead of taking full on. He is clearly exceptional combatant and knows how to discover weaknesses of opponents.

Originally posted by Zett




He was able to choke Dooku, probably because Dooku doesn't treat him as a threat anymore, after his: I can't, he's too powerful. And then he surprised him.

I know he surprised Dooku. I'm not actually comparing him to Dooku. But I'm saying he has shown more raw power in the force than Obi-Wan or Ventress.

I mean I doubt either of them would Choke Count Dooku even if they are enraged and catch him by surprise.

Opress also showed a lot of power when he put Obi-Wan, Anakin and mutiple Destroyer Droids down with the Force. And there was the chucking of their craft of the cliff, at which point he wasn't even enraged.

On paper I would say Grevious would be the better warrior, but judging how TCW is portaying Savage, I'd have to go with savage on this one.
Plenty of evidence to back it up if need be.

Grievous lost to a group of gungans, where as Savage pulsed away 3 destroyers, a battalion of super and b-1 battle droids and Anakin and Kenobi all at once. Grievous was owned by Ventress, and Savage tossed Asajj around in the cargo hold. Grievous and Savage both own Gallia, but Savage is more brutal. Dooku disarmed Grievous in training just like that, where as Savage knocked him onto the floor for a little bit. Savage can crush Grievous's insides just like Mace did. Savage can use Dathomirian rage on Grievous and pulse him away too. Grievous is better in saber combat, but Savage's strength and inner willpower, as well as his rage combined with the force would help Savage win.

I am so sick of how the new series is treating Grievous...He went from being a butcherer of Jedi to a joke who can't handle Gungans! He was praised after his death as a GOD among his people! He was the most powerful of his race! And now he is a joke...STOP CW! PLEASE STOP!

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
I am so sick of how the new series is treating Grievous...He went from being a butcherer of Jedi to a joke who can't handle Gungans! He was praised after his death as a GOD among his people! He was the most powerful of his race! And now he is a joke...STOP CW! PLEASE STOP!

Agreed. Everything we've seen up until recently of grievous put him at a level that only the greats like yoda, Anakin, kenobi, windu, dooku, and Sidious would be able to put him down. They are now making him seem retarded. Anyways I still think the general would win this fight.

Denial is a wonderful thing. Keep it up.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Denial is a wonderful thing. Keep it up.
Dude, I never said he is the most powerful, but he was more powerful before the CW series. I am not taking a side. I am voicing my opinion that the CW is taking one of the most interesting Star Wars characters and making him a joke.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Dude, I never said he is the most powerful, but he was more powerful before the CW series. I am not taking a side. I am voicing my opinion that the CW is taking one of the most interesting Star Wars characters and making him a joke.

I was actually referring to this:

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Anyways I still think the general would win this fight.

And FYI I think CW mini cartoon's introduction of him was a joke. A cyborg without the force defeating 5 Jedi simultaneously. 2 of them Council Masters. What a joke that was!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I was actually referring to this:



And FYI I think CW mini cartoon's introduction of him was a joke. A cyborg without the force defeating 5 Jedi simultaneously. 2 of them Council Masters. What a joke that was!
True. they did make him incredibly powerful, but then again, that series made EVERYONE rediculously powerful! I still think Grievous should be able to kill more jedi than he is now.... I mean, he can't take on AHSOKA? The only thing she had on her side was attitude! Grievous was not taking her seriously. but i mean even you have to agree that having him beaten by Gungans was an insult.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
i mean even you have to agree that having him beaten by Gungans was an insult.
hey!! Actually, the Gungans are BMFs, as epitomized by Jar-Jar!

NVM

Well I have the comic Sith Hunters. And Opress defeats Plo Koon in it.

Opress's list of victories is pretty impreesive now: Adi Gallia, Plo Koon, Ventress. And even Kenobi one time.

Grievous actually fought Adi Gallia twice and failed to defeat her both times. He also struggled to take Ashoka recently.

So I really don't see Grievous standing a chance against Opress.

Definitely won't be a stomp though. In that recent CW episode, if Ashoka didn't have a ship to escape on she'd probably would have been killed by Grevious.

Savage has the best TK in Clone Wars IMO, and seeing as how Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't separate when Savage screamed and hurled them at the wall, they were obviously surrounded with the Farce. Plus, Savage was well capable of throwing piles of **** around to kill his enemies, let alone the ''object'' itself (Grievous.) He could telekinetically assault him like in the first season 5 trailer, Force Crush his throat like Mace, Pulse him away, break his mechanical parts down like they're nothing, etc. Grievous is a legend, but even Savage could beat him. We're focusing on currency. After the next CW episode, you'll see Savage and Maul at it again. Use THAT currency for this skirmish.

Originally posted by mnat801
Definitely won't be a stomp though. In that recent CW episode, if Ashoka didn't have a ship to escape on she'd probably would have been killed by Grevious.

I never said she would have won. Just that she held her own.

I'm sure a Saber fight between the 2 would be good, but I still give that to Opress looking at his wins.

But with the Force in play, I really do see a stomp. Opress has a lot of raw power in the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I never said she would have won. Just that she held her own.

I'm sure a Saber fight between the 2 would be good, but I still give that to Opress looking at his wins.

But with the Force in play, I really do see a stomp. Opress has a lot of raw power in the Force. Opress has the advantage of force, I agree, but with Grevious' experience and cunning tactics, I don't see this being a stomp.

Yes, a saber fight would be very interesting indeed.