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Was Muhammad really a prophet? Was he just a convincing fake? How could they find out? These are the questions which the leaders of the Quraish were continuously asking themselves. They finally decided to consult the Jewish rabbis in Yathrib about the problem, since Jews had had more dealings with prophets in the past and the rabbis were knowledgeable in the scriptures.

The rabbis advised the Quraish to ask Muhammad three questions. If he knew the answers to those questions, then he was truly a prophet. The first question was about some young men of long ago, who had left their people and had had a wondrous experience. The second question was about a traveler who had journeyed to the ends of the earth in the east and the west. The third question was about the Spirit, and what it was.

The Quraish hurriedly sent messengers to Muhammad to ask him the three questions. The Prophet told them to return the following day and he would have the answers for them. However, he failed to add, "insha Allah," that is, "if Allah wills." By the next day he had not received any revelation to help him answer the questions, and he had to ask the messengers to return the following day . This was repeated for fifteen days, while the people of Mecca laughed at Muhammad's inability to answer the three questions. Finally Jibril appeared to the Prophet, and told him the three answers. He also explained the reason for the delay. In Surah 18: 23-24, is the warning that one should not plan to do anything in the future, without saying, insha Allah. All that we hope to do is only accomplished by the will of Allah.

The first question was about some young men who remained steadfast in their worship of one God, while the rest of their people turned to the worship of idols. No one is sure of the number of youth involved. That knowledge is Allah's alone, although many scholars have disputed over the number. To escape persecution, the young men hid in a cave, where Allah caused them to fall asleep for about three hundred years (only Allah knows the exact length of time). They had a dog with them, and to anyone who happened to see them they would have appeared to be awake, and the person would have been filled with fear of them. When they finally awoke, it seemed to them as if only a short time had passed. It was when one of them was sent down to the town to buy food that they learned they had slept for centuries. The account of these sleepers is in the Quran, Surah 18:9-25.

The answer to the second question was about a great traveler identified as Zul-Qarnain, "the owner of two horns." He had great power and had been given the ways and means to do all things. He traveled to the setting of the sun, which set in a murky pool. Nearby there lived a people over whom Zul-Qarnain had authority to punish or reward. He chose to punish those who did wrong and then send them back to Allah to be further punished. Those who believed in Allah and were righteous, would be rewarded. Then he journeyed to the rising of the sun, where he found a people who had been provided with no protection against the sun. Those people he left completely alone.

As part of his answer to the second question, Muhammad gave information about a third journey which Zul-Qarnain made. He traveled to a place between two mountains, where the people understood scarcely anything about Allah. They asked for his help in building a barrier between them and two beings called Yajooj and Majooj. In return for his assistance they promised to pay tribute to him. However he did not desire tribute. He replied that the power which he received from Allah was better than any tribute which they could offer him. And so he helped them erect a barrier of iron and lead, which Yajooj and Majooj were powerless to climb over or dig through. But the Quran warns that on a day appointed by Allah, they would break out of their place of confinement and cause great destruction. This would be one of the signs that the Day of Judgment was near. The story of Zul-Qarnain can be found in the Quran 18:84-103.

The third question, about the Spirit, had the shortest answer. The Quran (17:85) says that the Spirit comes by command of Allah, and that mankind does not have the knowledge to fully understand it. The Jews disputed that they had been given full knowledge in the Torah, but Allah tells us that their knowledge is very small, in comparison to Allah's knowledge, which could not be recorded even if all the trees on earth were pens and all the seas were ink.

Muhammad having answered all their questions successfully, many other people were convinced and the number of believers increased. As the numbers of believers increased, the opposition felt increasingly threatened and resorted to persecution of the followers of Muhammad.

This call for Muslims and non-Muslims are fair


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq4cJznc3W4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnK_Z29GCWg

Originally posted by eninn
Was Muhammad really a prophet?
I don't think so, no.

Originally posted by eninn
Was he just a convincing fake?
Well, he didn't convince me.

Originally posted by eninn
How could they find out?
Whether he's fake or not? It's really not possible as every argument can be degraded into a question of existentialism.

Originally posted by eninn
Was Muhammad really a prophet? Was he just a convincing fake? How could they find out?

isn't that just the same question asked in 3 different ways?

Originally posted by Oliver North
isn't that just the same question asked in 3 different ways?
Not really.

The first question centers around the validity of Muhammad's claims to being a prophet. The second question assumes that the first question is incorrect and builds on with whether or not the Muhammad was a convincing fake. The third questions is regarding how to find out whether he was a prophet or not.

yes, but the answers would essentially be the same... or at least, the answer to one would answer all three.

If you know the answer to 1, you know the answer to 2, and the process you used to know is 3.

Then answer question three for me.

there is nothing contained in the Qu'ran that would not have been outside of the knowledge of a traveling merchant living in 6th/7th century Saudi Arabia?

like, its a question of metaphysics, so its obviously not answerable in an absolute sense, but whatever conclusion you make to 1, necessitates the opposing answer to 2, based on however you came to that conclusion, 3.

It's simple
These are the scientists of the Torah of the Jews
If Muhammad prophet really
Will answer questions
Therefore
Many Jews in Medina converted to Islam

Why called miracle a miracle?
Jibril came to the Messenger peace be upon him revelation to the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
To tell him the message of Islam, God
And news about the past, present and future
In order to denote the truth of prophecy and the message
This has already happened
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him told stories of Muslims from all the prophets all details
Although not born at that time
So God says about it

(44) And you, , were not on the western side when We revealed to Moses the command, and you were not among the witnesses
(45) But We produced generations , and prolonged was their duration. And you were not a resident among the people of Madyan, reciting to them Our verses, but We were senders
(46) And you were not at the side of the mount when We called but as a mercy from your Lord to warn a people to whom no warner had come before you that they might be reminded
(47) And if not that a disaster should strike them for what their hands put forth and they would say, "Our Lord, why did You not send us a messenger so we could have followed Your verses and been among the believers?"..


(44) That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal to you, . And you were not with them when they cast their pens as to which of them should be responsible for Mary. Nor were you with them when they disputed.

(49) That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal to you, . You knew it not, neither you nor your people, before this. So be patient; indeed, the outcome is for the righteous .



Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him
Is responding to an invitation Abraham, peace be upon him
129. "Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own (and indeed Allah answered their invocation by sending Muhammad Peace be upon him ), who shall recite unto them Your Verses and instruct them in the Book (this Qur'an) and Al-Hikmah (full knowledge of the Islamic laws and jurisprudence or wisdom or Prophethood, etc.), and sanctify them. Verily! You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S_A9ERJWN0

. The life history of this Noble Prophet was a perfect example of being upright, merciful, compassionate, truthful, brave, generous, distant from all evil character, and ascetic in all worldly matters, while striving solely for the reward of the Hereafter. Moreover, in all his actions and dealings, he was ever mindful and fearful of Allah.

. Allah instilled great love for Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) in the hearts of all who believed in and met him. This love reached such a degree that any of his companions would willingly sacrifice his (or her) self, mother or father for him.

Till today, those who believe in Muhammad honor and love him. Anyone of those who believe in him would ransom his own family and wealth to see him, even if but once.

. All of history has not preserved the biography of any person in the manner it has preserved the life of Muhammad, who is the most influential human in history.

Nor has the entire earth known of anyone whom every morning and evening, and many times thereafter throughout the day, is thought of by those who believe in him. Upon remembering Muhammad, the believers in him will greet him and ask Allah to bless him. They do such with full hearts and true love for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz8t93Fau-Q

Does a prophet need to speak truth to be a prophet? Or does a prophet just have to amass a following and get a large number of people to believe their words?

I think Muhammad was a prophet even if he was full of shit.

I think Muhammad was a prophet

yes that's right


. There has never been nor will there ever be a man anywhere upon this earth who has received such love, respect, honor, and obedience in all matters-small and large alike-as has this Noble Prophet.

. Since his day, in every region of the earth and during every period, this Noble Prophet has been followed by individuals from all races, colors and peoples. Many of those who followed him were previously Christians, Jews, pagans, idolaters, or without any religion. Among those who chose to follow him, were those who were known for their sound judgment, wisdom, reflection, and foresight. They chose to follow this Noble Prophet after they witnessed the signs of his truthfulness and the evidences of his miracles. They did not choose to follow Muhammad out of compulsion or coercion or because they had adopted the ways of their fathers and mothers.

Indeed many of the followers of this Prophet (may Allah's blessings peace be upon him), chose to follow him during the time when Islam was weak, when there were few Muslims, and when there was severe persecution of his followers on earth. Most people who have followed this Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) have done so not to acquire some material benefits. Indeed many of his followers have suffered the greatest forms of harm and persecution as a result of following this Prophet. Despite all this harm and persecution, this did not turn them back from his religion.

My brethren! All of this clearly indicates to anyone possessing any sense, that this Prophet was truly and really Allah's messenger and that he was not just a man who claimed prophethood or spoke about Allah without knowledge.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_6LPHaO_-0

Originally posted by eninn
I think Muhammad was a prophet

yes that's right

Your princess is in our castle now!


Yes she's gone.

. With all this, Muhammad came with a great religion in its credal and legal make-up.

Muhammad described Allah with qualities of complete perfection, and at the same time in a manner that is free of ascribing to Him any imperfection. Neither the philosophers or the wise could ever describe Allah like such. Indeed it is impossible to imagine that any human mind could conceive of an existing being that possesses such complete ability, knowledge, and greatness; Who has subdued the creation; Who has encompassed everything in the universe, small or large; and Who possesses such perfect mercy.

Nor is it in the ability of any human being to place a perfect law based upon justice, equality, mercy and objectivity for all human activity on earth like the laws that Muhammad brought for all spheres of human activity - like buying and selling, marriage and divorce, renting, testimony, custody, and all other contracts that are necessary to uphold life and civilization on earth.

. It is impossible that any person conceive wisdom,, morals, good manners, nobleness of characters as what this honorable Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) brought.

In a full and complete manner, Muhammad spread a teaching regarding character and manners toward one 'parents, relatives, fiends, family, humanity, animals, plants and inanimate objects. It is impossible for the human mind alone to grasp all of that teaching or come with a similar teaching.

All of that unequivocally indicates that this Messenger did not bring an) of this religion from his own accord, but that it was rather a teaching and inspiration that he received from the One Who created the earth and the high heavens above and created this universe in its miraculous architecture and perfection.

http://onislam.net/english/reading-islam/about-muhammad/his-character/459443-prophet-muhammad-what-most-non-muslims-dont-know.html

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Your princess is in our castle now!


Yes she's gone.

I knew what video that linked to before I clicked it.

The legal and credal make-up of the religion that the Messenger, Muhammad, (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) brought resembles the engineering of the heavens and the earth. All of that indicates that He who created the heavens and the earth is the One Who sent down this great law and upright religion.


rasoulallah.net/index.php/ar/

http://www.eqraa.com/download/video/mualimhi.rm


As is known, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is described in the Quran as a "mercy to the worlds." It can be understood here that just as he is a vehicle of mercy for the whole human world, he has also been sent as a mercy for the realm of non-human creatures. In fact, at the same time he is the prophet of jinns, a group faithful to him whose existence we know about.

As much as he is the prophet of commanders, administrators, managers and the heads of families, he is also the prophet of the soldiers in the army, the people who are ruled and individuals in the family, which comprises the smallest building block in society . Finally, he is a vehicle of "mercy" for all the animals Allah created to serve man, the poor who comprise the lower class of society, widows and orphans and children. For his sake, people abandoned tormenting animals, looking down on the poor, confiscating the property of orphans and killing children. For this reason, we can say that Muhammad was the "prophet of mercy" for the whole human realm.

We can find the most striking examples of his human aspect outside of prophethood in his relations with children. Far beyond being an ordinary person, he was an exceptional individual who could become childlike with children and he recommended this to others. This difference in his approach to children is, in itself, a subject demanding investigation. On the other hand, the Prophet was a great teacher who pointed out in that period many realities which child psychologists discover and put forth today. With these special qualities, he was a father and grandfather who made a special place for children in his life full of beauty, which needs to examined in eve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10QsdhPgDbg

Originally posted by eninn
We can find the most striking examples of his human aspect outside of prophethood in his relations with children. Far beyond being an ordinary person, he was an exceptional individual who could become childlike with children and he recommended this to others. This difference in his approach to children is, in itself, a subject demanding investigation.


Marrying a child of six (or seven) and then having sex with his nine (or ten) year old wife is certainly "different".

You know who else was notorious for becoming "childlike" when around children? Michael Jackson.

You mean
Marriage of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon Ms. Aisha, may Allah be pleased

Nabi speeches before puberty
And married after puberty

So can not marry young girls before puberty

Because mental sensations for the girl
Composed after puberty


In the Arabian Peninsula
This situation is normal
At that time
Aisha before the marriage of the Prophet
Associated with a person of the tribe before the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
But the marriage did not complete
Therefore
Kfar
Quraish
Did not speak about it
Against
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD4AE16O2NU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3z9Fxgx5PM&feature=relmfu


see here


Khadija asked to marry the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
And not vice versa
A result of the sincerity, honesty and ethics have the rare
Throughout his life did not care for money itself never
Biography of the Prophet a good read
You will feel surprised and admiration and love of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him


Khadija
Offered to marry her a lot of honorable men in Mecca
But
Then the preference of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
Are not gaining in wealth - high morals

Truth be known though...

Prophet Muhammad had a monogamous marriage before the passing of Khadijih for twenty four years which was unusual at the time...

He was twenty five years old when He married Khadijih...and He was around forty nine years old at the time of her passing.

Gibbon wrote:

During the twenty-four years of their marriage, her youthful husband abstained from the right of polygamy, and the pride or tenderness of the venerable matron was never insulted by the society of a rival. After her death he placed her in the rank of the four perfect women, with the sister of Moses, the mother of Jesus, and Fatima, the best beloved of his daughters.

Originally posted by eninn
You mean
Marriage of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon Ms. Aisha, may Allah be pleased

Nabi speeches before puberty
And married after puberty

So can not marry young girls before puberty



Pretty sure most 6-7 year old girls aren't going through puberty.

Even using the: "she hit puberty by 9, so she was ready for sex" is just nasty and something old perverted men say to justify their fetish for having sex with children.

Tell me, would you allow your 9 year old daughter to have sex with a man in his 50's?

Originally posted by Astner


It should further be noted that Muhammad had older wives as well.
"It should further be noted that the serial rapist had consensual sex as well."

Originally posted by Robtard
How is it not a relevant question?
Because you're imposing your cultural standards on a time and culture that did not share them.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yes, Muhammad certainly did; what does that have to do with his sexual relationship with a 9 year old?
Pedophilia is a psychological disorder, not the act of child sexual abuse.

Since Muhammad had adult wives it's likely that he wasn't attracted to Aisha because she was a child, implying that his choice in marriage was based on culture and not perversion.

Rob isn't calling Mohammed a pedophile here, I've argued that with him in the past.

He is saying child sex is wrong though, and culture doesn't really change that.

Originally posted by Astner
Because you're imposing your cultural standards on a time and culture that did not share them.


Pedophilia is a psychological disorder, not the act of child sexual abuse.

Since Muhammad had adult wives it's likely that he wasn't attracted to Aisha because she was a child, implying that his choice in marriage was based on culture and not perversion.

Ergo, if I said "slavery of black Africans in N. America was wrong", I'd be wrong cos I would be "imposing" my "cultural standards on a time and culture that did not share them". How about the sanctioned near genocide of Native Americans by the US government? Sorry, different time and culture; so you can't judge! Brilliant way to excuse most anything, Astner.

Please show me where I called Muhammad a "pedophile" here?

LoL, wut? Are you saying that people can ONLY be sexually attracted one one thing? ie I can only like women in their 20's, but nothing else. I can only be attracted to blondes. etc. LoL, stop apologizing for child-sex practitioners. "He didn't want to marry a 6 year old and have sex with her at 9, he had no choice. Culture!"

Originally posted by Oliver North
He is saying child sex is wrong though, and culture doesn't really change that.
You can't come to an objective conclusion based on subjective standards.

Meaning that in the end it's Robtard's opinion, and while I share that opinion it's still subjective.

Originally posted by Oliver North
He is saying child sex is wrong though, and culture doesn't really change that.

B _ N G _

O, I

Originally posted by Astner
You can't come to an objective conclusion based on subjective standards.

Meaning that in the end it's Robtard's opinion, and while I share that opinion it's still subjective.

oh, post-modernism is the most intellectually useless thing ever, lol

woooooo, everything is subjective, wooooo

so, basically, you are saying what Rob is saying is like everything else people say and therefore there is little reason for you to say it in the first place

also, I've written countless posts on this forum where I have described what I think is a highly functional approach to objective morality, but that is a totally different point.

Originally posted by Astner
You can't come to an objective conclusion based on subjective standards.

Meaning that in the end it's Robtard's opinion, and while I share that opinion it's still subjective.
Are you assuming that moral conclusions can ever be objective?

my dear brother

Astner


thank you




-----

THE FIRST MEETING WITH CHILDREN IN MEDINA

The year 622 ... Two men weary from a long and tiresome journey, Muhammad (pbuh) and Abu Bakr, finally reach days later the Muslims from Medina who have come to meet them on the hills of "Seniyyetul-Veda." Among those coming to meet them from Medina were boys and girls dressed in their best clothing, enthusiastically playing the tambourines in their hands and singing a song of joy, "Talaal Badru Alaina." At just that moment the Prophet went to the side of the children to show openly that he gave them value and importance and to inform people of this. He asked the children:

"Do you love me?" The children responded in unison:

"Yes, we love you very much, O Messenger!" Then, giving them glad tidings, the Prophet said,

"I swear I love you too."

These tidings became so powerful and so far-embracing that they encompassed the whole Age of Happiness and included all children ... At last children were happy, because they had a "prophet" who valued them, gave them importance and loved them and wanted them to be loved and noticed and watched over.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64prQTsYSIY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaxnxObEtsg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBfvy-zA82M

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Are you assuming that moral conclusions can ever be objective?
No, it would be wrong to do so. At least from my philosophical standpoint, a standpoint which I'm sure you and the other critics in this thread share.

Though I do find it odd why the marriage with a nine year-old strikes you as such a vile act. Especially since this was well over a thousand years ago when it was common all over the world, and in this case to the benefit of the child as well as her entire family.

I'd be more concerned with the wars Muhammad fought, because murder is less ambiguous on the moral compass than to have sex with a child, or to even rape a child. Because a rape victim can at any time take her own life.

Originally posted by Astner
I'd be more concerned with the wars Muhammad fought, because murder is less ambiguous on the moral compass than to have sex with a child, or to even rape a child. Because a rape victim can at any time take her own life.
So you're saying that since a juvenile rape victim is likely to commit suicide, that it merits less attention than murder from a moral point of view?

That has to be among the most asinine things I have read on this site.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

(Sigh.) Another media drone?

It really shouldn't be that difficult to grasp. Death is final, rape isn't. That said, I don't promote rape. It's still a horrible crime.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I did grasp it and found it to be similar to the sh1t which Brucie spouts on the Off-topic thread of the Comicbook VS forum.
No you didn't grasp it because you misrepresented it.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
How does that make it morally ambiguous?
It doesn't. Note the use of the term "more" denoting relativism.

Originally posted by Astner
(Sigh.) Another media drone?

It really shouldn't be that difficult to grasp. Death is final, rape isn't. That said, I don't promote rape. It's still a horrible crime.


No you didn't grasp it because you misrepresented it.
Saying that murder is worse than rape is different from saying that rape is morally ambiguous.

Originally posted by Astner
(Sigh.) Another media drone?

It really shouldn't be that difficult to grasp. Death is final, rape isn't. That said, I don't promote rape. It's still a horrible crime.


No you didn't grasp it because you misrepresented it.


It doesn't. Note the use of the term "more" denoting relativism.
Let me rephrase: how does it make it morally ambiguous to any degree?

Since you love maffs I'll put it this way: negative one is greater than negative two, but wouldn't it be a mistake to say that negative one is "positive", even in comparison to negative two?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Saying that murder is worse than rape is different from saying that rape is morally ambiguous.
And that's why I never said that rape was morally ambiguous.

Originally posted by Astner
(Sigh.) Another media drone?

Poor attempt at an insult.
Originally posted by Astner
It really shouldn't be that difficult to grasp. Death is final, rape isn't. That said, I don't promote rape. It's still a horrible crime.

How does the finality of it(I disagree with that as well but w/e) make it less morally ambiguous than rape? Or morally ambiguous at all?
Originally posted by Astner
No you didn't grasp it because you misrepresented it.

You're wrong in this assumption.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Poor attempt at an insult.
It wasn't meant as an insult, but rather to point out that you've given in to the glorification of death in media.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
How does the finality of it(I disagree with that as well but w/e)
You disagree with that death is final?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
make it less morally ambiguous than rape? Or morally ambiguous at all?
It doesn't make it ambiguous, simply less ambiguous.

It's like saying that an accelerated proton in the large hadron collider is slower than the speed of light in vacuum. But that doesn't necessarily mean that said proton is slow by any conventional standard.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
You're wrong in this assumption.
No I'm not, you misrepresented my position proving that you did in fact not understand it. It's not a topic open to debate. Swallow your pride and move on.

Originally posted by Astner
It wasn't meant as an insult, but rather to point out that you've given in to the glorification of death in media.

Don't insult your own intelligence by passing it off as something that its not.
Originally posted by Astner

You disagree with that death is final?
I disagree that the finality of death somehow makes it ambiguous on the moral compass(more or less or at all) as you explicitly stated on the previous page.
Originally posted by Astner

It doesn't make it ambiguous, simply less ambiguous.

How is it morally ambiguous to begin with ?
Originally posted by Astner
It's like saying that an accelerated proton in the large hadron collider is slower than the speed of light in vacuum. But that doesn't necessarily mean that said proton is slow by any conventional standard.

Your retarded analogy actually tells us that just because it is less morally ambiguous(heaven knows where you even got the premise behind such a strange notion) doesn't mean that it isn't morally ambiguous by any conventional standards.
Originally posted by Astner

No I'm not, you misrepresented my position proving that you did in fact not understand it. It's not a topic open to debate. Swallow your pride and move on.
If its not a topic to debate then why are you even debating it? Plus, you're still wrong in this assumption of yours.

Originally posted by Astner


Though I do find it odd why the marriage with a nine year-old strikes you as such a vile act.

Especially since this was well over a thousand years ago when it was common all over the world, and in this case to the benefit of the child as well as her entire family.


I'm more repulsed by a 50+ year old man having sex with a nine year old than the marriage in of itself.

What does the time span and it being "common all over the world"(was it really?) have to do with anything? I'll ask another like scenario, slavery was common and in many parts of the world a 1,000 years ago, should I therefore not think slavery is wrong? Not that you'll likely answer, as you have a tendency to dodge.

Also find your dismissal of the act under the "benefit to the child and family" clause to be disturbing. Almost like it's okay to rape a child, as long as they benefit in some other fashion. Very NAMBLA-ish.

Astner will probably reply with some moral-themed bleen-grue argument.

Originally posted by eninn
It's simple



We kill the Batman?

Originally posted by Astner
it's*

Irrelevant.
Originally posted by Astner

I didn't say that it was ambiguous, I said that it was less ambiguous. I've clarified this in three posts already.

Again: why is it ambiguous to begin with?
Originally posted by Astner

Once again, I never said that it was.

Once again, answer the question, question dodger.
Originally posted by Astner

Your replies are the only ones displaying hints of retardation. I never said that rape is morally ambiguous.

Pot calling kettle black.
Originally posted by Astner

You must have one heck of an ego. Let's break this down. This is what you thought I meant:

This is what I actually meant:

If you look at your own post more clearly, you'll see that this vague moral relativism that you've been harping on about for the last 2 pages is exactly what I assess from your post. You're trying too hard and failing too hard to make this any more complicated than it already is.
Originally posted by Astner

Notice the lack of correspondence between your explanation of my position and my actual position. Proving, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that you didn't comprehend it.
Lulz.

ha

lulz indeed

In fact,
I do not know where I should start in this article
Result
The beauty and wonder of this remarkable behavior

Love and compassion - equality between boys and girls - education and character building - health care - breastfeeding ..... and lots and lots


Continued with me in all fields

Mercy of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him with the children


Kissing .....: A kind of physical contact, kissing is an expression of love that the Prophet often resort to. Sources indicate that his daughter Fatima and his grandchildren Hasan and Hussein (Abu Davud, "Adab" 144; Tirmizi, "Menakib" 50) kissed and he recommended it to others.

Seeing the Prophet kissing his grandson Hasan (or Hussein), a person named Akra b. Habis found this behavior strange and said: "I have ten children, but I have never kissed any of them." The Prophet gave this meaningful answer: "The merciless mercy will not be treated" (Buhari, "Adab" 18; Tirmizi, "Birr" 12).

Joking: It is known that joke is very important for children, who have a rich imagination. In the traditions relating to this subject, was witness that the Prophet measured and meaningful jokes at the same time were full of wisdom and instruction both for his grandchildren, Hasan and Hussein, and other children made:

A companion named Mahmud b. Rabi said that when he was five years old, the Prophet took some water from a bucket and threw it in his face and he did the same with the other children (Buhari, "Ilim" 18).

The exercise of the back and shoulders: A kind of physical contact, carrying children on his shoulders or back was an act often performed by the Prophet. In particular, each time he visited his daughter Fatima, he would immediately Hasan and Hussein, who would come to meet him on his back as a gesture of affection (Alauddin Ali al-Muttaki, Kenzu'l-Ummal , XVI, 274). Once he prayed with his granddaughter Umame on his back.

Another event that is relevant to the subject is as follows: Although he was sixty verses recited during the first unit of morning prayer, the Prophet finished the prayer by reading one of the shortest verses in the second unit, when he was a child cry heard . When asked why he did that, he gave this useful answer: "I heard a child crying and I shortened the prayer so as not to give the mother suffered" (Nasai, Qibla 35).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6n18fSgOJY&playnext=1&list=PL9C45B665DCFCB456&feature=results_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ7s9wmoEIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLkx-Aub1tc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euypqVZdQqs

Love shown to children is called "growth vitamin" by child psychology experts; because as a result of investigation and research, they have concluded that no kind of physical environment provided for a child or care shown can ever take the place of love.

On the other hand, in regard to socialization of the child, love that it has or has not seen plays a big role. When these realities are taken into consideration, it is obvious how important the love and interest the Prophet showed to children is from their perspective. The following examples of expressing love are manifestations of pure love in its most natural and plainest form that a father or grandfather can give a child.

Embracing: Recent studies made on the topic of people influencing one another demonstrate that physical touch is extremely effective. It is a fact that children who are still in the emotional development stage of childhood are perhaps most in need of love. It is foremost the duty of the parents to see that this need is sufficiently met. Many examples can be given on this subject from the Prophet's life:

Anas relates:

"I never saw anyone more compassionate to his family than the Prophet. The wet nurse of his son Ibrahim lived in one of Medina's border neighborhoods. The husband of the wet nurse was a blacksmith. Going there everyday to the smoke filled house, the Prophet would embrace, sniff and kiss the child "(Buhari," Adab "18; Muslim," Fedail "63).

As was the topic of many narrations of the Companions, the Prophet, sometimes going to Hasan and Hussein and sometime calling them to him, would embrace and kiss them (Buhari, "Fedailu's-Sahabe" 22; Tirmizi, "Birr" 11; Ibn Mace, "Adab" 3). He was not only showing this behavior for his own children, but for all children.

Ibn Rabia b. al-Haris relates: "My father sent me and Fazil, the son of Abbas, to the side of the Prophet. When we entered his presence, he had us sit on his right and left and then embraced us so tightly, we had never seen anyone stronger "(Ibn Hajer, al-Matalibu'l-Aliyye, II, 441.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBwhN0JBoHc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8U9JP9ZQb0

You've convinced me, there's nothing wrong with an adult having sex with a 9 year old, as long as he/she is regarded as an important/famous figure. Glad we cleared that up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfkjVyWx8DI


Value given to girls

In some societies boys have been treated as superior to girls since time immemorial. However, this attitude dominated Arabic society during the Age of Ignorance in a more violent way. So much so that this ugly attitude took the form of burying small girls alive in the sand and, increasingly spreading, it began to be seen as legitimate. In line with the verses in the Holy Quran, the Prophet firmly forbade discrimination between boys and girls which was current in the society he was sent to and tried to eliminate the "seeing boys as superior" tradition that had developed among people on this subject. In a short time, as a continuation of ignorance, the idea of "looking down on girls" or "burying them in the sand" was replaced by the understanding that regardless of whether the child was a boy or girl, it would be seen as "a favor and gift from Allah" (Hakim, al-Mustadrak, II, 284). Here the behavior of the Prophet towards his own girls and hadiths in the form of recommendation and command played an important role.

In many hadiths related to this subject, the Prophet made statements with this common meaning: "Whoever has three (or two or one) girls or sisters and treats them well and does not prefer male children over them and educates them in the best manner, Allah will make them a shield against hell and will put them in heaven "(Ibn Mace," Adab "3; Tirmizi," Birr "13; Abu Davud," Adab "130).

This event gives the good news that parents will be rewarded for their compassion and mercy to their daughters:

Aisha narrates: "A woman came to me. She had two girls with her. She wanted something. However, I did not have anything except one date. I gave it to her. The woman divided it into two pieces and shared it between her daughters; nothing was left for her. They left. Later the Prophet came. When I told him about this situation, he said, "Whoever befriends and treats their daughters well like this, the girls will be a shield for them against the fire" (Buhari, "Zakat" 10).

Originally posted by Robtard
You've convinced me, there's nothing wrong with an adult having sex with a 9 year old, as long as he/she is regarded as an important/famous figure. Glad we cleared that up.
Perhaps you should read up on the history regarding the age of consent, and also on the history of how Islam was founded. You might learn something and come across as less ignorant in this thread.

Originally posted by Astner
Perhaps you should read up on the history regarding the age of consent, and also on the history of how Islam was founded. You might learn something and come across as less ignorant in this thread.

We've covered this before and you did nothing but dodge. So you're just lashing out now.

Originally posted by Robtard
We've covered this before and you did nothing but dodge. So you're just lashing out now.
Actually, considering how you, TheGodKiller, and Omega Vision repeatedly failed to comprehend and address my positions, and where outright humiliated in your ignorant replies, I thought I'd be nice and let it die.

But fact remains. I've answered every single question asked of me. It's not my fault that you're too stupid to grasp the difference between an absolute statement and a relative one, despite having it explained on numerous occasions throughout this entire thread.

Originally posted by Astner
Actually, considering how you, TheGodKiller, and Omega Vision repeatedly failed to comprehend and address my positions, and where outright humiliated in your ignorant replies, I thought I'd be nice and let it die.

But fact remains. I've answered every single question asked of me. It's not my fault that you're too stupid to grasp the difference between an absolute statement and a relative one, despite having it explained on numerous occasions throughout this entire thread.

That's not true at all. Your positions were met and countered and you repeatedly dodged questions that showed how faulty your "it was common back then", "she benefited from the marriage so it's okay", Morals! Morals! Moral!" etc. etc. etc. points were.

LoL. yet more complete and utter lies. Poor form, Astner. You dodged most of the time and it was pointed out when you did. You continue to lash out, out of frustration and butthurt.

Originally posted by Astner
Actually, considering how you, TheGodKiller, and Omega Vision repeatedly failed to comprehend and address my positions Maybe that's becuase your positions are incomprehensible.



You're just that smart.

Astner

thank you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_mkqDj0KBM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbTHhkySqes



The Prophet mohammed (peace and blessings be upon him) would display the best form of treatment with children. Anas bin Malik - may Allah be pleased with him - had a younger brother; and the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) would play with him and nickname him Abu 'Umayr. The child had a small bird that he played with. Whenever the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) would meet him, he would joke with him saying, "O Abu 'Umayr, what happened to al-Nughayr?" meaning, the bird.

He would be kind and playful with children. Whenever he would meet Zaynab bint Umm Salamah, he would playfully say to her, "O Zuwaynib! O Zuwaynib!" Whenever he passed by children playing, he would greet them. Whenever he visited the Ansaar, he would greet their children and place his hand on their heads out of compassion. Upon the return of the Muslim army from Mu'tah, the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) along with the rest of the Muslims and their children met them on their way back to Madinah. When the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) saw the children he said, "Take the children and carry them, and please pass me Ibn Ja'far." They passed 'Abdullah Ibn Ja'far on to him and he held him in his arms.

One day as the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) was performing ablution, there came to him Muhammad bin al-Rabi' who was only five years old. The Prophet (p.b.u.h.) took some water in his mouth and jokingly blew it out in his face. (al-Bukhari)

Generally, the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) was lively and merry with everyone. He would always try to make people happy. He would always be easygoing with everyone so that people would not become bored in his company.

Muhammad was great with children and a good host to his guest. Check and check.

The Greatest Man in history,

The Prophet mohammed (peace and blessings be upon him)

He is Mohammed Ibn Abdullah.
Mohammed means: The commendable in his attribute

* His self morality:
- He was the best person for he was better than any good sent to any human.
- If he was given two options on any subject he'd take the easier unless it is a sin.
- He was more timid than a virgin.
- He never carp food; if he liked it he ate and if he didn't he didn't eat not uttering a word of not liking.

- If he talked, he would talk slowly, not hurriedly and never go on talking nonsense, if you try to count his conversation you'd count it lesser than your fingers.

- He never liked to gossip about people, he'd say {No one tells me about anyone anything, for I like to meet you with clean heart}.
- He was the bravest person and the best decent, Anas said {I've served Prophet Mohammad for ten years he never said: a pooh for something I did or why did you do that? Or will you do that?} This means he never gave orders and never asked anyone to do him a favor.

- He never crap anything, no matter how bad it is.
- If anyone asked him a favor he never says no, he gives without hesitation not fearing poorness.
- He moons with the ignorant and he is patient when someone huts him.


- He smiles to anyone talks to him and concentrate on one's talk until makes one feel as if he is the most important person in the world.
- When he shakes hands in greeting, he never takes his hand before the one greeted. He'd greet first and finishes greeting last.
- He's tickle children and greets them and he'd wipe the orphans' heads and play with them.

- He's answer the invitation of: the free, the slave, the servant, the poor and he'd visit any sick person.
- If anyone wanted to whisper for him a thing he's bend his head to hear.
- He's always first to greet people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2KIH_eWZLA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B24-7j3dZI4

A man came to the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) wanting a camel to ride on for a journey or expedition. The Prophet (p.b.u.h.) said to him jokingly, "I will give you an offspring of a camel." The man became surprised and thought of how he could possibly ride a camel's offspring that could not carry his weight. He said, "O Messenger of Allah! What would I do with a camel's offspring?" The Prophet (p.b.u.h.) said, "Does a camel give birth to anything but an offspring?" Meaning; I will give you a grown camel, however, no doubt, it is still another camel's offspring!

Once he jokingly said to Anas, "O you, the possessor of two ears!"

A woman once came to the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) complaining about her husband, so he said to her, "Is your husband the one whose eyes are white?" The woman became worried and thought that her husband had become blind, in light of what Allah said about Jacob, "His eyes whitened from grieving so much..." meaning, he became blind. She went back to her husband terrified and began to look into his eyes carefully. He asked her what the problem was. She said, "The Prophet (p.b.u.h.) said that there is whiteness in your eyes!" The man said, "O woman! Did he not tell you that the whiteness in my eyes is more than the blackness?" meaning; everyone has whiteness and blackness in his eyes.

The Prophet (p.b.u.h.) would react positively to whoever joked or bantered with him and he would smile. One 'Umar bin al-Khattab came to the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) who was at that time angry with his wives, due to their demanding of more allowance. 'Umar - may Allah be pleased with him - said, "O Messenger of Allah! If you recall us when we were men of Quraysh, we always controlled our women. If any of our women were to ask for more allowance, we would have jumped up and grabbed her neck! But when we came to Madinah we found the women controlling their men, so our women began to learn these tricks from their women!" Thereupon the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) smiled. 'Umar continued to speak and the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) continued to smile.

We read in various Ahadith that often the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) would smile till his molar teeth would show. He was indeed an extremely kind and friendly companion. If we were to tran ourselves to embrace such skills, we would surely taste the sweetness of life.

.:: A Thought ::.

A child is like soft clay that we shape according to our treatment of it

Originally posted by eninn
the Prophet (p.b.u.h.)

Made my day.

Originally posted by Robtard
That's not true at all. Your positions were met and countered and you repeatedly dodged questions that showed how faulty your "it was common back then", "she benefited from the marriage so it's okay", Morals! Morals! Moral!" etc. etc. etc. points were.

LoL. yet more complete and utter lies. Poor form, Astner. You dodged most of the time and it was pointed out when you did. You continue to lash out, out of frustration and butthurt.
What questions do you want answered? You're forcing your moral system on a culture predating yours. One were everyday life was different.

If five hundred years from now it will be deemed immortal to marry before the age of 40, and the consensual intercourse between a 30 year old woman and a 60 year old man is unheard of? Does that make us immoral and heathenistic psychopaths?

Point out to me what questions you feel have been left unanswered and I'll try to reach out to you again.

Originally posted by Astner
If five hundred years from now it will be deemed immortal to marry before the age of 40. Gonna be a lot of teenaged weddings in the future.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Gonna be a lot of teenaged weddings in the future.
"Immoral*" would've done just fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3i7Vgs4-JQ

- He was the best person to his family and very patient with them; he'd ignore their mistakes and help them at house work. He polished his shoes and sewed his clothes.
- If a kid came to him, he'd take his hand to talk to him and go with him anywhere he wants.


- He'd sit with the poor. At any board he with sit until the end.
- He hates anyone to stand when he enters and he'd prevent people to exaggerate to compliment him.

- His gravity is a wonder, he's laughter was smiles, he talks when needed, and he'd talk easily and clearly, he was the best symbol.
- If he disliked something, it'd show on his face but never would he utter a word of dislike.

- He wasn't nasty, or damned anything, he never gives badly for bad he would be patient, excusing and forgiving.
- He's never meet one is something he hates.

- Never loose temper nor seek revenge. Even the Godless of that time talked and witnessed his honesty, decency and his straightforwardness. He pitied captives, freed the slaves, he organized the country, cherished women and make her a autonomic and not cheap.

- He'd never fight unless for God.
- He never shouts nor aggrandizes his victory, when he entered Mecca he was devout, silent, his chin touches his chest because of fearing and thanking God. He didn't enter arrogance, conceit and egotism.

- A man saw him while he was roaming around Kaba (God's home in Mecca) the man shook of fearing him as a king on earth, but Prophet Mohammed told him: {Take it easy, I'm only the son of a woman who used to eat charqui in Mecca}

Originally posted by Astner
What questions do you want answered? You're forcing your moral system on a culture predating yours. One were everyday life was different.

If five hundred years from now it will be deemed immortal to marry before the age of 40, and the consensual intercourse between a 30 year old woman and a 60 year old man is unheard of? Does that make us immoral and heathenistic psychopaths?

Point out to me what questions you feel have been left unanswered and I'll try to reach out to you again.

so, if I say "It's just my culture" I am able to ignore the moral consequences of my actions?

If I harm someone, all I have to do is believe my culture says it is ok, and I am no longer responsible for that harm? or is it that the harm is no longer wrong?

Originally posted by Astner
What questions do you want answered? You're forcing your moral system on a culture predating yours. One were everyday life was different.

Moral systems require context, yes, but complete moral relativism renders morality meaningless. To most people there is no context where child sex is not immoral.

The basic questions come down to this:
Do you believe that an adult having sex with a 9 year old is not harmful in a culture that accepts it?
If you believe it is harmful why do you not consider it immoral?

Originally posted by Astner
If five hundred years from now it will be deemed immortal to marry before the age of 40, and the consensual intercourse between a 30 year old woman and a 60 year old man is unheard of? Does that make us immoral and heathenistic psychopaths?

That is a very strange moral belief, that morality in the future will be superior to morality of today, and not one most people ascribe to.

Originally posted by Oliver North
so, if I say "It's just my culture" I am able to ignore the moral consequences of my actions?

If I harm someone, all I have to do is believe my culture says it is ok, and I am no longer responsible for that harm? or is it that the harm is no longer wrong?
No.

But how do you figure that marrying and arguably having sex with a nine year old girl is necessarily harmful to her? There certainly have been women who have gotten pregnant and given birth at that age and managed just fine. So why is it objectively wrong?

Originally posted by Astner
There certainly have been women who have gotten pregnant and given birth at that age and managed just fine. So why is it objectively wrong?
Emphasis on "managed." Them surviving doesn't mean it was pleasant or that the circumstances in which it happened were right.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Moral systems require context, yes, but complete moral relativism renders morality meaningless. To most people there is no context where child sex is not immoral.

The basic questions come down to this:
Do you believe that an adult having sex with a 9 year old is not harmful in a culture that accepts it?
If you believe it is harmful why do you not consider it immoral?
That's still a subjective basis though.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That is a very strange moral belief, that morality in the future will be superior to morality of today, and not one most people ascribe to.
My point exactly.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Emphasis on "managed." Them surviving doesn't mean it was pleasant or that the circumstances in which it happened were right.
No, I used the term managed because I've not done any extensive research on the subject. And you're once again applying circular reasoning with the use of the term "right".

Originally posted by Astner
But how do you figure that marrying and arguably having sex with a nine year old girl is necessarily harmful to her?

1) there is no arguably about having sex, that is the actual topic of conversation...

2) seriously?

I imagine there are scores of child labourers who managed just fine too. Hell, there are rape victims who bare no real physical or psychological scars...

Originally posted by Oliver North
1) there is no arguably about having sex, that is the actual topic of conversation...
Until you provide a source for it I'll continue to refer to it as a hypothetical scenario.

Originally posted by Oliver North
2) seriously?
Yes, seriously.

Originally posted by Oliver North
I imagine there are scores of child labourers who managed just fine too. Hell, there are rape victims who bare no real physical or psychological scars...
You're grasping at straws.

If you can show me statistical data of nine year-olds suffering from childbirth when the father is healthy, able, and willing to provide for the nine year-old and their child. Then I'll concede that it's objectively wrong.

Originally posted by Astner
Until you provide a source for it I'll continue to refer to it as a hypothetical scenario.

the conversation for pages now has been about the morality of having sex with a child...

so, my source would be this thread itself?

Originally posted by Astner
If you can show me statistical data of nine year-olds suffering from childbirth when the father is healthy, able, and willing to provide for the nine year-old and their child. Then I'll concede that it's objectively wrong.

thats not actually the harm I'm talking about, but rather the victimization of someone clearly without the cognitive development to deal with the outcome of sexual activity, much like the rape of a mentally handicapped individual. Its not a physical harm, it is a violation of that person.

However, if you are actually challenging me to prove child-birth isn't particularly safe for a 9 year old I'm just going to laugh at you and link a biology 101 textbook.

Originally posted by Oliver North
the conversation for pages now has been about the morality of having sex with a child...
The argument is whether or not Muhammad was a prophet, and the basis for your argument is that he wasn't because he wasn't perfect because he married and arguably had sex with a nine year-old.

Originally posted by Oliver North
so, my source would be this thread itself?
That's one of the stupidest things I've read. No. The fact that we're arguing a hypothetical scenario doesn't make it less hypothetical.

Originally posted by Oliver North
thats not actually the harm I'm talking about, but rather the victimization of someone clearly without the cognitive development to deal with the outcome of sexual activity, much like the rape of a mentally handicapped individual. Its not a physical harm, it is a violation of that person.
Now can you structure that into an actual argument that wouldn't be dismissed as abstract nonsense in a court of law?

Originally posted by Oliver North
However, if you are actually challenging me to prove child-birth isn't particularly safe for a 9 year old I'm just going to laugh at you and link a biology 101 textbook.
Then laugh at me at direct me to the paragraph of this biology 101 textbook.

Originally posted by Astner
The argument is whether or not Muhammad was a prophet, and the basis for your argument is that he wasn't because he wasn't perfect because he married and arguably had sex with a nine year-old.

you are a very strange person Astner

not only is that unrelated to my point at all, I have a fairly strong background in Islamic history and studies, so my opinion of Mohammed has nothing to do with that. Many interpretations of Islam hold that while Mohammed was a prophet, he was also a man, and therefore subject to the same flaws and influences of men. This "perfect-man" interpretation of Mohammed is by no means universal. Were I a Muslim, I'd have no need to think Mohammed was without sin, and because I don't believe in any Gods, I don't believe Mohammed was a prophet, regardless of his sins.

Your other statements border on inane and I'm sure someone as smart as you can read them again and understand why.

Originally posted by Oliver North
not only is that unrelated to my point at all,
But that's what the topic is about, that's why eninn is defending this action.

Originally posted by Oliver North
Your other statements border on inane and I'm sure someone as smart as you can read them again and understand why.
I honestly don't care what you think of me. Now, where's the source I requested?

Originally posted by Astner
But that's what the topic is about, that's why eninn is defending this action.

you have trouble with this whole "conversations go off topic" thing, eh? I don't think I've responded to a single thing eninn has said...

Originally posted by Astner
I honestly don't care what you think of me. Now, where's the source I requested?

I'm not sure what you mean, so I'll just be flippant about the three parts you quoted above that I ignored:

1) we obviously aren't talking about a hypothetical, as your own position is that it was a cultural practice, meaning by tautology, it is a real, non-hypothetical thing

2) there are numerous laws on the books, today, that follow exactly the principle I outlined. Anything that requires an age of consent, for instance, such as sex, contract law or driving/drinking ages. Also, the law has little to do with morality. so now it is you who is going off topic.

3a) 9 year-olds largely can't have children because they are pre-pubescent in almost all cases

3b) we could talk about the physical damages of a full grown man penetrating a small child, we could go into the psychological development of the child, the hormonal changes and how there would be worse on a child, the psychological issues of post-partum depression and how there is no chance a child has the psychology to deal with that, etc. You want a source? read a ****ing book. I don't ask you to describe 8th grade algebra whenever you make a point about spatial dimensions.

Originally posted by Oliver North
you have trouble with this whole "conversations go off topic" thing, eh? I don't think I've responded to a single thing eninn has said...
Not directly, no.

Originally posted by Oliver North
1) we obviously aren't talking about a hypothetical, as your own position is that it was a cultural practice, meaning by tautology, it is a real, non-hypothetical thing
Once again, until you can provide a credible source verifying that Muhammad did in fact have intercourse with Aisha at the age of nine it's a hypothetical scenario.

Originally posted by Oliver North
2) there are numerous laws on the books, today, that follow exactly the principle I outlined. Anything that requires an age of consent, for instance, such as sex, contract law or driving/drinking ages. Also, the law has little to do with morality. so now it is you who is going off topic.
What does that have to do with any of my arguments?

Originally posted by Oliver North
3a) 9 year-olds largely can't have children because they are pre-pubescent in almost all cases
But we're not talking about the majority of nine year-olds. We're talking about the select few that undergoes puberty at said age.

Originally posted by Oliver North
3b) we could talk about the physical damages of a full grown man penetrating a small child, we could go into the psychological development of the child, the hormonal changes and how there would be worse on a child, the psychological issues of post-partum depression and how there is no chance a child has the psychology to deal with that, etc. You want a source? read a ****ing book.
"Read a book" isn't a reference. So I take it that your argument is baseless then?

yes, my arguments are baseless, it has nothing to do with your position being one of absolute ignorance of the topic.

Originally posted by Oliver North
yes, my arguments are baseless, it has nothing to do with your position being one of absolute ignorance of the topic.
An ad hominem attack?

No really, kid, you're embarrassing yourself.

yes, I'm embarrassed

"kid" is a nice touch, especially from someone who apparently doesn't care about what I think of them :P also, I'm almost 30 at this point, so, I wish... lol

anyways, this is at the level of trolling, if you come up with something that isn't asinine, let me know. Otherwise I'll let anyone reading the thread determine how embarrassed I should be for themselves

Originally posted by Oliver North
Otherwise I'll let anyone reading the thread determine how embarrassed I should be for themselves
Sounds good.

Originally posted by Astner
Once again, until you can provide a credible source verifying that Muhammad did in fact have intercourse with Aisha at the age of nine it's a hypothetical scenario.


I do love how you accused me of not bothering to "read up on Islam" and being ignorant, yet here you can't bother to do 2 minutes of research.

Aisha and her age of marriage and consummation of the marriage is mentioned a few times in the Hadiths.

Here's one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_al-Bukhari

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/062-sbt.php#007.062.064

I like how Astner is vacillating between "you can't prove that Muhammad had sex with a nine year old girl" and "well, even if he did, it was a different time with different sets of morals and you can't prove that it's objectively wrong"

Astner

thank you

gzak allah khiran

Originally posted by Astner
An ad hominem attack?

No really, kid, you're embarrassing yourself. You're the one who should be embarrassed. Culture be damned, every one who can empathize with other humans knows that a nine year old girl is not mature enough to desire sex with a grown man! Men just didn't care, and used tradition to violate innocence for their own personal pleasure. It was immoral then and probably ALL the women thought so. Your arguments have been tainted from the beginning with the idea that death is worse than violation. Death may be wonderful to those who are dead, but how many rape victims are happier for being raped? It's a shame that no matter how twisted something obviously is you have someone who's going to justify it.

The MISTER

read and understand


In the Arabian Peninsula
This situation is normal
At that time
Aisha before the marriage of the Prophet
Associated with a person of the tribe before the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
But the marriage did not complete
Therefore
Kfar
Quraish
Did not speak about it
Against
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him

You mean
Marriage of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon Ms. Aisha, may Allah be pleased

Nabi speeches before puberty
And married after puberty

So can not marry young girls before puberty

Because mental sensations for the girl
Composed after puberty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hziCI4OeW4s

Originally posted by eninn
The MISTER

read and understand


In the Arabian Peninsula
This situation is normal
At that time
Aisha before the marriage of the Prophet
Associated with a person of the tribe before the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
But the marriage did not complete
Therefore
Kfar
Quraish
Did not speak about it
Against
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him

You mean
Marriage of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon Ms. Aisha, may Allah be pleased

Nabi speeches before puberty
And married after puberty

So can not marry young girls before puberty

Because mental sensations for the girl
Composed after puberty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hziCI4OeW4s
Puberty does not equal maturity. It's just one of the stages in the maturation process. Anyone who is sixty probably considers twenty-five year olds to be immature.

I actually do understand that on earth these types of situations are normal. Situations where the women are dominated by a culture that doesn't allow for them to voice their opinions about what's expected of them. Situations where children are denied education and childhoods so that they can better serve the prevalent male agenda. Situations where the leaders of the countries use religious doctrine to keep their people preoccupied while they break all the rules at their leisure.

Though these situations are normal all over this planet, it doesn't make them positive. Do you understand?

Children who are used as bartering tools and sex toys are in the same category as slaves, and even more powerless as running away is almost impossible for them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iThS90rIV7s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkso6fywRmk

Eninn, thoughts?

hAIsfPRBmnM

1) LoLz at homosex = creation of AIDS

2) The Qur'an was undoubtadly written by a man. Gay males = evil. Gay females = Yah!!!!! Party time!!!!!

You don't think bisexual women got their recognition from the harem-culture rather than the Quran?

homosexuality has been well documented in natural conditions across dozens of animal species of several different taxa. homosexual behavior isnt unnatural at all.

mohammed did not receive messages from god

I think Paul speak of homosexuality (particularly male homosexuality) as an abomination or beast-like behavior, which would make it sinful.

an abomination doesnt say much. if the problem is being beast-like behavior, is there an overarching prohibition against men behaving like other animals? cause we do it all the time

-Starting from Adam to Muhammad peace be upon him
One Message
The Oneness of Allah

Through the prophets, not of other ways

All the prophets Muslim

111. And when I (Allah) put in the hearts of Al-Hawarieen (the disciples) to believe in Me and My Messenger, they said: "We believe. And bear witness that we are Muslims."
Surah Al-Ma'idah


78. And strive hard in Allah's Cause as you ought to strive (with sincerity and with all your efforts that His Name should be superior). He has chosen you (to convey His Message of Islamic Monotheism to mankind by inviting them to His religion, Islam), and has not laid upon you in religion any hardship, it is the religion of your father Ibrahim (Abraham) (Islamic Monotheism) . It is He (Allah) Who has named you Muslims both before and in this (the Qur'an), that the Messenger (Muhammad) may be a witness over you and you be witnesses over mankind! So perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), give Zakat and hold fast to Allah He is your Maula (Patron, Lord, etc.), what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord, etc.) and what an Excellent Helper!
Surah Al-Hajj


90. And We took the Children of Israel across the sea, and Fir'aun (Pharaoh) with his hosts followed them in oppression and enmity, till when drowning overtook him, he said: "I believe that La ilaha illa (Huwa): (none has the right to be worshipped but) He, "in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am one of the Muslims (those who submit to Allah's Will)."
91. Now (you believe) while you refused to believe before and you were one of the Mufsidun (evil-doers, corrupts, etc.).

92. So this day We shall deliver your (dead) body (out from the sea) that you may be a sign to those who come after you! And verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.).

Surah Yunus
Titles different
Jewish Torah - Christian Gospel - and so on

But
Original
At the basis of faith
Islam



If you are a belief in one God and Muhammad is the Messenger of God and Jesus Abd Allah and His Messenger
The angels and the prophets and messengers and the Day of Judgment
The scriptures and not distortion now
Fatalistic events, good or bad



Through the prophets and messengers


Not by Akhenaten, Sumerian and Buddhism
This has nothing to do with the oneness of God on the true face
It is a delusion and invention of human beings

-----

The truth always be clear to any sane person and those who want to understand

Is Muhammad peace be upon him ascended to the moon to know that the moon split in half?

Did the Prophet Muhammad lived in the time of Prophet Noah, peace be upon him to know that the ship stopped on Mount Judi, not another Mount?

Was Muhammad peace be upon him an astronaut and the planets revolved around the galaxies to us so accurately described in the Holy Qur'an?

Was Muhammad peace be upon him chemically and has a world microscope to tell us about infectious diseases and how it treated?

You can forgive many people at one time after inflicted you harm and Hrmuk of your home and your tribe, which grew up and do not punish them, but honored nor never kill them?
I know that the answer is no, but the womb of the Prophet Muhammad and the people forgive them

And do not forget that people dubbed Muhammad before his mission of prophethood Saadiq Secretary

There are many examples which, if read the Qur'an will make you marvel and say

Yes, Muhammad is the Messenger of God

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yexRERBgBqE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6mPq7wTamY

your proselitism is entirely wasted on this board. when people do click on those videos, they're looking for a laugh

Narrated by 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64

She was consummated at the age of Nine, indicated her puberty at that age.

According to this perspective, Aisha may have been young, but she was not younger than was the norm at the time. Other Muslims doubt the very idea that Aisha was six at the time of marriage, referring to historians who have questioned the reliability of Aisha's age as given in the saying. In a society without a birth registry and where people did not celebrate birthdays, most people estimated their own age and that of others. Aisha would have been no different. What's more, Aisha had already been engaged to someone else before she married Muhammad, suggesting she had already been mature enough by the standards of her society to consider marriage for a while. It seems difficult to reconcile this with her being six.

Check "Age of Consent Laws" during 1880 in Delaware, USA.

chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/primary-sources/24


Is that 7 ? Yes it is!! Not too far right ? Almost only 133 years. And now we are talking about the incident that happened 1400 years back in Mohammad's(pbuh) life ?

Do you know how old was mother Mary when she gave birth of prophet Jesus(pbuh) according to Bible? She was 12-14 years old. I wont ask you how old Joseph was when she married Mary. Because I believe Mary was virgin, she was blessed and she was pure.

People of Quraish in Arab did not not accept the prophet-hood of Mohammad(pbuh) at the very first time and blamed him, cursed him, attacked him in every possible way they could.But yes! they never spoke a single word or put any kind of blame on him while he was even engaged with Aisha at her age 6 and later consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.

The Quran does not state a specific legal age of marriage, however it does give a guideline and mentions situations and conditions that should be considered before marriage:

1) Determining mutual attraction/compatibility
2) Ascertaining whether the potential partner is of similar beliefs/faith
3) Discussion of and agreeing to the level of dower and other terms (if any)
4) Understanding and mutual acceptance of marriage as a solemn/strong oath/contract
5) If male, capable of providing for the family/household
6) To have physically matured / post-puberty

Allah knows the best. Let Allah give good understanding to everyone.

socks gonna sock

while it's true their historical context made such behavior acceptable (and the same was the case of medieval christian europe and even much more recent western societies), 9 years olds are pre-pubescent, which means mohammad was violating Q'ram stipulations.

Originally posted by 753

9 years olds are pre-pubescent, which means mohammad was violating Q'ram stipulations.

NO this is not true. He did not violate any Qur'an stipulations.

Puberty is the period of sexual maturation and achievement of fertility.
The time when puberty begins varies greatly among individuals. Nutritional and other environmental influences may be responsible for this.
Yes. In general, 9 is a very appropriate age for any child to start puberty. Puberty normally occurs in a series of five stages (Tanner stages) that typically begin within the ages of 8 and 13 for girls and 9 and 14 for boys. Puberty is consider early (precocious) if it occurs before the age of 8 years in girls and 9 years in boys. And puberty is considered late or delayed if it has not begun prior to the age of 13 years for girls and 14 years for boys. Recent studies have shown that puberty is occurring at an increasingly earlier age in children though.

Please go through more medical science and real life stories.

abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2013/02/06/girl-9-gives-birth-in-mexico/

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1247889/Chinese-girl-9-gives-birth-health-baby-boy.html

NOTE: any idea? if they became mother at the age 9, then when did they marry ? and when did first sexual intercourse happen?


abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/girls-hitting-puberty-early-age-study-suggests/story?id=11345321#.UWggQkoTV6F

sciencenews.org/view/feature/id/346459/description/Early_Arrival



Allah knows best.

the tanner scale which cant be used to precit age to begin with indicates that age 9 and younger is prepubertal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanner_scale

the very first hormonal changes that lead to puberty (adrenarche) take place from 6 to 10 years of age, but the onset of female puberty itself is 10-11 and the menarche, which signals actual fertility, usually occurs from 11-13. full sexual maturity is achieved 4 years after the onset. contemporary average 9 year olds are prebuscent (though such a thing as early puberty does exist hence those rare exception you posted) and it's quite possible puberty has been hastened since the industrial revolution.

maybe mohammad's child bride hit puberty precociously, but nothing in medical science would indicates 9 year olds can eb considered sexually mature

Xuel - the reason the random birth of a child from a 9 year old mother makes headlines around the world is generally because it is so rare medically. It would be like saying "Some people are 8 feet tall therefore all people are 8 feet tall". The vast majority of girls are not physically prepared for childbirth, and even in the cases you cite, there is extreme concern for the health of the mother, given her young age. In the medical and scientific community, these cases are seen as near tragedy, and the majority do not have the happy ending seen in the stories you linked to. Scientists and doctors do not see 9 year old girls as biologically prepared for child birth.

my typing sure is sloppy today

Xuel

gazak allah kiran


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxd1XV2oShU

The miracle of the apostles and prophets ring Prophet

Muhammad, peace be upon him is the Holy Quran

- The night Prophet Mohammad (s.a.a.w.s.) was conceived by his parents, all the idols of Mecca were thrown down on the ground. Angels cast the throne of Iblis (Satan) into the sea and Satan was tormented for forty days.

- The night our Prophet (s.a.a.w.s.) was born:

(a) The Palace of Qisra (King of Persia) trembled and its fourteen towers fell down.

(b) The flames of the fire-worshippers, the Majus (Zoroastrians) went out, though that fire had been burning for more than a thousand years, never extinguished.

- Prophet Muhammad's birth corresponds with the Year of the Elephant, which is named after the failed destruction of Mecca that year by the Aksumite King Abraha who had in his army many elephants.

- When Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.w.s.) was either nine or twelve years old while accompanying a Meccans caravan to Syria, he met a Christian monk or hermit named Bahira who foretold Muhammad (s.a.a.w.s.) that he was going to be a prophet of allah.Prophet Mohammad's Miracles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqzoF_zMX_A&list=PLEFABC002BD887EB6


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjp6e2OwZFw

eninn, why do you post here? You don't listen to anyone, and no one listens to you? So, why waist your time?

I wonder if there's a hidden tenet in certain groups of Islam and Christianity where they need to find a forum not related to religion and preach to it instead of simply share ideas or thoughts. The same way in which you would create a Guy Fawkes and then burn it in effigy, except with Youtube links and rhetoric instead of torches and such.

In any case, eninn does not directly address any one individual from what I've seen, so his/hers/its sentience is somewhere between 'non' and 'Cleverbot'.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I wonder if there's a hidden tenet in certain groups of Islam and Christianity where they need to find a forum not related to religion and preach to it instead of simply share ideas or thoughts. The same way in which you would create a Guy Fawkes and then burn it in effigy, except with Youtube links and rhetoric instead of torches and such.

In any case, eninn does not directly address any one individual from what I've seen, so his/hers/its sentience is somewhere between 'non' and 'Cleverbot'.

Ya, English is not his/hers/its first language.

I just tested it. CV says "no sin alcohol". It's legit.

64. Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

3. Surah Ale-Imran


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYCoyeQXty8




This fits right in with the prophecy mentioned in the Bible in the Book of John in chapters 14 and 16, as the coming of a prophet known as the "Spirit of Truth" or "Comforter" or "Advocate."


Born as a descendent of Abraham, peace and blessings be upon him, through his first born son, Ishmael (Ismail in Arabic), peace and blessings be upon him, to the noble tribe of the Quraish who were the leaders of Makkah in those days. Muhammad's blood line traces directly back to Abraham, peace and blessings be upon him.

This could certainly point to fulfillment of Old Testament (Torah) prophecies in Deuteronomy (chapter 18:15) of a prophet, like unto Moses from "their brethren."


He kept the Commandments of Almighty God, just as his great grandfathers and prophets of old had done in the past (peace be upon them). Here is a statement from Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, while the Quran was being revealed to him by the angel Gabriel;

"Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited you from: Join not anything in worship with Him; be good and dutiful to your PARENTS; do not kill your children because of poverty - (Allah) provide sustenance for you and for them; do not come near to Al-Fawahish (shameful sins, illegal sexual intercourse, etc.) whether committed openly or secretly, and kill not anyone whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause. This He has commanded you that you may understand."

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
eninn, why do you post here? You don't listen to anyone, and no one listens to you? So, why waist your time?

Eninn, what about answering my question?

eninn, why do you post here? You don't listen to anyone, and no one listens to you? So, why waist your time?


////

I ask Allah make you happy, make you smile, guide you
safely, though every mile, grant you wealth, give you
health & most of all grant you paradise!

Excuse me!!
Would you stop for a moment?!
O...man...Haven't you thought-one day- about yourself ?
Who has made it?
Have you seen a design which hasn't a designer ?!
Have you seen a wonderful,delicate work without a worker ?!
It's you and the whole universe!..
Who has made them all ?!!
You know who ?.. It's "ALLAH",prise be to him.
Just think for a moment.
How are you going to be after death ?!
Can you believe that this exact system of the universe and all of these great creation will end in in nothing...just after death!
Have you thought, for a second, How to save your soul from Allah's punishment?!
Haven't you thought about what is the right religion?!
Read ... and think deeply before you answer..
It is religion of Islam.
It is the religion that Mohammad-peace upon him- the last prophet, had been sent by.
It is the religion that the right Bible- which is not distorted-has preached.
Just have a look at The Bible of (Bernaba).
Don't be emstional.
Be rational and judge..
Just look..listen...compare..and then judge and say your word.


Did you read about Islam ?

http://www.islamreligion.com/category/122/

http://www.dawahmemo.com/eng/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBeoBa4OC0w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFt0Q2vPLqI
64. Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

3. Surah Ale-Imran

eninn, you refuse to talk to people. Pleas go away.

You've noticed, I'm sure, that eninn / JIA types also completely avoid each other (at least as far as I'm aware). Can you imagine the competition?

Two religionistic forces posting vast walls of text / vids at each other that neither reads / watches.

Bots on autopreach.

Originally posted by Mindship
You've noticed, I'm sure, that eninn / JIA types also completely avoid each other (at least as far as I'm aware). Can you imagine the competition?

Two religionistic forces posting vast walls of text / vids at each other that neither reads / watches.

Bots on autopreach.

It would be the 5th Crusade.

Originally posted by Mindship
You've noticed, I'm sure, that eninn / JIA types also completely avoid each other (at least as far as I'm aware). Can you imagine the competition?

Two religionistic forces posting vast walls of text / vids at each other that neither reads / watches.

Bots on autopreach.

We could make bets on which one caves first.

< would not live long enough.

We should create bots then to mediate them, and divide it up into 'rounds'.

Maybe something like an online browser game, with turn-based battles.

You just need pretend experts talking on and on about what they think will happen next and you have a professional sport.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You just need pretend experts talking on and on about what they think will happen next and you have a professional sport.

We have lots of pretend experts on this forum to pick from.

Originally posted by Mindship
You've noticed, I'm sure, that eninn / JIA types also completely avoid each other (at least as far as I'm aware). Can you imagine the competition?

Two religionistic forces posting vast walls of text / vids at each other that neither reads / watches.

Bots on autopreach. This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.

bluewaterrider


gazak alla khiran


thank you, dear brother


#MUHAMMAD INNOCENCE OF MUSLIMS response مترجم

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1DSdqMycEQ

So eninn only responds to bluewaterrider? This is odd indeed.

You may well be on his block list, ever considered that?

Originally posted by Astner
You may well be on his block list, ever considered that?
The most I've ever gotten out of eninn in terms of real communication was a line about two words long. I asked him why he never posted outside of his propaganda threads and he replied "I'm busy."

Pretty much. Eninn's level of interaction ranks slightly above Red Box.

But it is jarring to see him show solidarity with a Christian. Not to say Muslims and Christians can't have any common ground; it just seems odd given the rarity of it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Pretty much. Eninn's level of interaction ranks slightly above Red Box.

But it is jarring to see him show solidarity with a Christian. Not to say Muslims and Christians can't have any common ground; it just seems odd given the rarity of it.

Stealth Moose, you are better off with eninn not talking to you. He is far, far, far, more delusional then any of the Christians.

They at least attempt to be apologists or cover up their beliefs with far more PC semantic arguments, I agree.

But eninn is like an ad popping up that I don't agree with; he doesn't really trouble me, and I forget about him right after I move on with my day.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Eninn's level of interaction ranks slightly above Red Box.

But it is jarring to see him show solidarity with a Christian. Not to say Muslims and Christians can't have any common ground; it just seems odd given the rarity of it.


Tell me, Moose:

Where have I ever, anywhere in this forum, said I was a Christian?

Is this something you're just assuming?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Tell me, Moose:

Where have I ever, anywhere in this forum, said I was a Christian?

Is this something you're just assuming? That's like asking "When have I ever said I have fingers?"

Some things you can just take a wild stab at and assume it's true.

1. You white-knight Christian arguments.

2. You referenced the banning of the most definitively Christian preacher this forum has ever seen, even though your interaction level was minimal to nil in public eyes.

3. You referenced Genesis in a context which implies its diet adheres to natural principles.

4. You have argued against homosexuality, which is often a huge point of contention for religious people who can't own up to the fact that they are bigots.

5. You argued against the burden of proof, as the majority of Christians have done. This in itself is not a big deal, since most religious types do this. But in conjunction with the rest of the evidence, it merely adds flavor.

6. You haven't explicitly denied being Christian. Even now, when it becomes something you chose to reply about.

7. You argued about the legitimacy of the creation story and Adam/Eve at length.

So really, what have you done to tell me you are not a Christian? And why would you hide what your beliefs are, in a religious forum?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Tell me, Moose:

Where have I ever, anywhere in this forum, said I was a Christian?

Is this something you're just assuming?

OK. we can salve this easily:

bluewaterrider, if you are not a Christian, then what is your religion?

It's that time again!

https://d1zfway5lub0cv.cloudfront.net/cards/19681.jpg

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's that time again!

https://d1zfway5lub0cv.cloudfront.net/cards/19681.jpg

There is a post on this forum where I asked BWR if he would convert to Islam, and I think he said he was a Christian, but I can't find the post, so I could be wrong.