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Darth Traya (Peak power) vs Darth Sidious (Revenge of the Sith)

Location: Trayus Core (Final battle of KotOR II)

Sabers
Force
All out

Who wins the duel of manipulators?

I honestly think Sidious would win this, But others may disagree. Traya can use any power in this fight that she used against you in KotORII (Ie, lightning, death field, plague, wave, the floating sabers, etc)

Sidious probably blitzes her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious probably blitzes her.
Hey! Thanks for being the first to post on my first thread! and I agree also.

You're welcome. Traya does have a chance imo. All she needs to do is raise her hand to use her special drain, which has no proven defence. But the Trayus Core probably isn't big enough for there to be room enough for her to do that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're welcome. Traya does have a chance imo. All she needs to do is raise her hand to use her special drain, which has no proven defence. But the Trayus Core probably isn't big enough for there to be room enough for her to do that.
And I'm sure Sidious would also be boosted from the Dark Side energies of Malachor V. That is why I picked that location.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're welcome. Traya does have a chance imo. All she needs to do is raise her hand to use her special drain, which has no proven defence. But the Trayus Core probably isn't big enough for there to be room enough for her to do that.

I doubt that Sidious would fall victim to that technique. It seems odd that a weaker individual would be able to Force Drain a Sith Master vastly superior to her in command of the force.

There's only one possible defense against the technique and theres no way to prove that Sidious knows it or that it would work against Trayas technique.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There's only one possible defense against the technique and theres no way to prove that Sidious knows it or that it would work against Trayas technique.

http://www.amsterdamtrader.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/awjeez.jpg

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
http://www.amsterdamtrader.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/awjeez.jpg
Sidious is not like the Exile, upon which Drain like Nihilus's or Traya's would be ineffective. However, Since he has access to the Sith Holocrons, he surely knows how to defend against a legendary Sith feat like this one.

Darth Traya matches need to be banned. They always just divulge in a Force drain debate. Hell, the last thread she was in divulged into it even though the technique was banned.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Darth Traya matches need to be banned. They always just divulge in a Force drain debate. Hell, the last thread she was in divulged into it even though the technique was banned.
I made this thread because they are both master manipulators, I did not think the "Force Drain" thing through...

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
I made this thread because they are both master manipulators, I did not think the "Force Drain" thing through...

I know, not your fault. It just always happens.

Does Traya actually know the same power Nihilus does?

She taught Nihilus how to utilise his unique ability, but she doesn't actually need to know it to do that, technically.

Was what she did to the three Jedi Masters confirmed to be the same thing? I forget.

If anything else, she certainly isn't as potent in her useage of the technique as Darth Nihilus is.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I know, not your fault. It just always happens.
I will not use Nihilus, Traya, or Sion, Nihilus and Traya become a drain match and Sion becomes an immortality argument (if the setting is on a sith world)

Originally posted by NemeBro
Does Traya actually know the same power Nihilus does?

She taught Nihilus how to utilise his unique ability, but she doesn't actually need to know it to do that, technically.

Was what she did to the three Jedi Masters confirmed to be the same thing? I forget.

If anything else, she certainly isn't as potent in her useage of the technique as Darth Nihilus is.

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2048/img-20.JPG

Its the same technique. Unless theres another technique that drains the target of the Force completely (which is how she describes Nihilus' tech.)

If the average Sith Assassins running around can do the technique (very weakly) then I don't see why its hard to believe that Kreia could as well.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Does Traya actually know the same power Nihilus does?

She taught Nihilus how to utilise his unique ability, but she doesn't actually need to know it to do that, technically.

Was what she did to the three Jedi Masters confirmed to be the same thing? I forget.

If anything else, she certainly isn't as potent in her useage of the technique as Darth Nihilus is.
Well no because he specializes in the Drain technique. She did teach him the basics of it though. And what she did to the three Jedi Maters was Drain Life. it is unknown what it looks like when Nihilus uses it becuase all we have seen is the effects of it, not it actually being used (unless you think the deleted scene of him vs Sion is what it looks like)

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2048/img-20.JPG

Its the same technique. Unless theres another technique that drains the target of the Force completely (which is how she describes Nihilus' tech.)

If the average Sith Assassins running around can do the technique (very weakly) then I don't see why its hard to believe that Kreia could as well. That is all well and good, but is it really impossible to defend against then? IIRC that designation was only ever applied to Nihilus's unique useage of it.

Kreia says that 'there are some techniques against which there are no defense,' clearly referring to the technique in its entirety, not just Nihilus using it. Besides which, his use of the technique is unique only in terms of scale, its not a separate technique in its own right.

Considering how the Exile can only use it after killing someone, and how the Sith Assassins can only empower themselves with your strength rather than rip it out totally, I'd say Nihilus's mastery of the technique is so great that it is more than a mere difference of being able to do it to worlds.

Nihilus could eat others even before receiving any training, it is intrinsic to his very being.

That said, IIRC Kreia is also a Force Wound (Which I forgot), so yeah, I guess she'd have it too to an extent, or at least the potential for it.

Also, remind me, when did she say that quote?

I'm almost certain Kreia is not a force wound. If she was she would have no need for the Exile or Nihilus.

Edit: She says that when she talks about when Sion and Nihilus betray her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aROhCH-tTiA

Originally posted by NemeBro
Considering how the Exile can only use it after killing someone, and how the Sith Assassins can only empower themselves with your strength rather than rip it out totally, I'd say Nihilus's mastery of the technique is so great that it is more than a mere difference of being able to do it to worlds.

Nihilus could eat others even before receiving any training, it is intrinsic to his very being.

That said, IIRC Kreia is also a Force Wound (Which I forgot), so yeah, I guess she'd have it too to an extent, or at least the potential for it.

Also, remind me, when did she say that quote?

During her flashback to Nihilus and Sion betraying her.

You mean when Nihilus severed her from the Force?

And huh, Kreia isn't a Wound. Weird. She can't have Nihilus's power then, only a bastardized version of it.

IIRC actually, what she did was connect them to the Exile, show them the Force through her eyes, and the Exile sort of isn't present in this thread.

Yes.

She was cut off from the Force, if that counts. Either way, she clearly uses the technique on the Council.

No, since if you examine the bodies of the Council it says that they've been drained of life and become absences in the Force.

Nah, Traya confirms before you fight her if you question her that she simply showed them the Force through the Exile's eyes.

Not applicable in a forum fight.

Bullshit.

If she says that then what she meant was obviously that she showed them life without the Force. By cutting them off from it:

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2047/img-102.JPG

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2047/img-103.JPG

Her power is great, no doubt. That is why I made this thread. She was the leader of the Triumverite! The immortal Sion and the Wound Nihilus one took orders from her. As she said "I once held the galaxy by the throat"

Originally posted by NemeBro
Considering how the Exile can only use it after killing someone, and how the Sith Assassins can only empower themselves with your strength rather than rip it out totally, I'd say Nihilus's mastery of the technique is so great that it is more than a mere difference of being able to do it to worlds.

Nihilus could eat others even before receiving any training, it is intrinsic to his very being.

That said, IIRC Kreia is also a Force Wound (Which I forgot), so yeah, I guess she'd have it too to an extent, or at least the potential for it.

Also, remind me, when did she say that quote?
She said it after, in her story, she gets slammed into the wall by Nihilus's Force Push.

Tell me this Neph when has Traya drained a Dark Side Master more powerful than her?

She hasn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She hasn't.

No proof it'd even work versus Sidious.

Why do you think I need to prove that it would work on him? If you don't think it would, I'd be interested in hearing your reasons. But at the moment theres nothing contradicting the suggestion that theres no defense for the technique. Well, none that Sidious knows.

By the way, the Sith Assassins do use it on those more powerful than them.

The Sith Assassins leech off of those more powerful than they are, they can't just kill people with their power. Citing them actually hurts your argument.

Kreia clearly doesn't have the same power as Nihilus, she lacks the fundamentals (Being a Wound), and your screenshots only support what I have said.

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2048/img-20.JPG

'As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.'

The effects of her attack match her description of Nihilus' technique. Furthermore, I don't believe its ever said that you need to be a Wound to use the technique. What she says on the subject is that:

'It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand.'

Kreia has experienced it first hand, by having it used on her and by spending prolonged time on Malachor V, the 'crucible' that was used to teach others the technique and what caused the Exile and Nihilus to learn it. Theres no reason why she shouldn't be able to use it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why do you think I need to prove that it would work on him? If you don't think it would, I'd be interested in hearing your reasons. But at the moment theres nothing contradicting the suggestion that theres no defense for the technique. Well, none that Sidious knows.

By the way, the Sith Assassins do use it on those more powerful than them.

No limits fallacy. Do you think Kreia could force drain Galactus?

If he was connected to the Force, yes. That doesn't mean it would kill him though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If he was connected to the Force, yes. That doesn't mean it would kill him though.

Jesus Christ dude.

What do you mean? Its not like Galactus is a Force Master, lol.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No proof it'd even work versus Sidious.

No proof he can block it either. DE, you're wasting your time. For once, you look like Einstein here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What do you mean? Its not like Galactus is a Force Master, lol.

He's omnipotent.

Originally posted by jdoe310
No proof he can block it either. DE, you're wasting your time. For once, you look like Einstein here.
That's not how debates works genius. I don't have to prove a negative.

IIRC only when he is full. He is not normally that level. And it doesn't matter. He has no Force defenses, ergo it would affect him.

Galactus can manipulate the forces of the universe at levels that would make a Skyfather blush.

He could sever the bonds that connect Traya to the Force with a thought, or even better sever the bonds keeping her atoms together.

It would not affect him because he could will it not to.

Stop this madness Nephy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
IIRC only when he is full. He is not normally that level. And it doesn't matter. He has no Force defenses, ergo it would affect him.

Dude you are seriously lost if you think an omnipotent being can be affected by an attack like that. Do you think Kriea can force drain the force itself too?

Looks like this went over your head. I advise you to get a triple digit IQ before lecturing people on logical fallacies, otherwise you just look retarded. You have to PROVE Sidious can block the drain, especially since Kreia did it so easily to 3 council members. Otherwise, you lose, again.

Also LOL@omnipotent argument. Vitiate and Abeloth are the only things that come close to omnipotence and even that's a stretch.

He was talking about Galactus, not Sidious, who nevertheless is not excluded from the club that includes Abeloth and Vitiate.

Originally posted by jdoe310
Looks like this went over your head. I advise you to get a triple digit IQ before lecturing people on logical fallacies, otherwise you just look retarded. You have to PROVE Sidious can block the drain, especially since Kreia did it so easily to 3 council members. Otherwise, you lose, again.

Also LOL@omnipotent argument. Vitiate and Abeloth are the only things that come close to omnipotence and even that's a stretch.

And no the entire basis of the argument that it's unblockable is that 3 featless Jedi fell victim to it, and a fallacious character statement said it was unblockable. That does not make it unblockable. Especially not against a character with such a powerful force defense like Sidious. Prove that Kriea's technique is the same technique Nihlus used.
Kriea is the only person in the mythos who has said that it is unblockable. And yet she is probably the character with the most lies in her limited dialogue.
Vitiate and Abeloth aren't close to omnipotent. My point was simply to prove how ridiculous this wank of Kreia's drain is.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Galactus can manipulate the forces of the universe at levels that would make a Skyfather blush.

He could sever the bonds that connect Traya to the Force with a thought, or even better sever the bonds keeping her atoms together.

It would not affect him because he could will it not to.

Stop this madness Nephy.

Dude, no shit he would win in an actual fight. I was just responding to whether she could sever him from the Force. Which, considering he has no control over the Force at all and thus no way to block it, she could imo.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And no the entire basis of the argument that it's unblockable is that 3 featless Jedi fell victim to it, and a fallacious character statement said it was unblockable. That does not make it unblockable. Especially not against a character with such a powerful force defense like Sidious. Prove that Kriea's technique is the same technique Nihlus used.
If the character said it was unblockable, then drained 3 council members, you have to prove there's a defense for it. Since you can't, you lose.

Kreia is the only person who even mentioned this technique. Come back when you hit puberty.

Guys....... You DO all realize that this has carried a bit far, yes?



Btw, Mizukage has a point. Kreia has more lies in her dialogue than just about anybody else (Liar McGee topping her)

Theres no reason for her to lie about this.

There's always the possibility that he could simply drain her first.

Sidious? With regular Force Drain or Nihilus' version? If he knows either then yeah he could given that he's vastly faster than her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
With regular Force Drain or Nihilus' version? If he knows either then yeah he could given that he's vastly faster than her.

Perhaps.

Ironically, his use of Force drain indicates a mastery that makes Vitiate's use of the ability look rather pedestrian.

I already said that Sidious probably blitzes her off the bat.

I don't think theres anything pedestrian about what he did to Nathema. Although if you're talking about how he needed 8000 Sith lords with him and that he used a ritual, then I guess. Although if he (iirc) absorbed those Sith Lords then his abilities have likely grown considerably after that ritual.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Although if you're talking about how he needed 8000 Sith lords with him and that he used a ritual, then I guess.





Likely, but peculiar for a figure who still relies overwhelmingly on rituals and nexuses. But maybe we'll see something more impressive in the future in that respect.

Yeah, for being possibly the strongest Sith Lord in history we could use some more exposure to his abilities.

Has you mentioned the new quotes to Silver at all? I may not respect the guys opinion but I'm curious to see what he thinks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, for being possibly the strongest Sith Lord in history we could use some more exposure to his abilities.

Has you mentioned the new quotes to Silver at all? I may not respect the guys opinion but I'm curious to see what he thinks.

I haven't posted on ComicVine in a while and I think Silver is semi-retired. But drawing upon my immense and intimate comprehension of my fellow man, I assure you he'd probably just interpret it the same way that queer NemeBro did.

Realised the breads buttered better on my side huh? Excellent. excellent

nah

They have a horde of unusually well-informed debaters who simply do my work for me and that's no fun.

I found myself respectfully playing the devil's advocate on more than one occasion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, for being possibly the strongest Sith Lord in history we could use some more exposure to his abilities.

Has you mentioned the new quotes to Silver at all? I may not respect the guys opinion but I'm curious to see what he thinks.


What quote?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
indeed

Well, got the opportunity to flip through the newly-released The Old Republic Encyclopedia. My initial impression is that it's one of the finest reference works ever released under the Star Wars brand name; some 400 pages long and brimming with both text and images.

Some tidbits that some of you may find interesting:

Of KotOR 2's Sith triumvirate, Kreia and Sion each receive one mention in the book, with Nihilus supreme at a total of 3
The Sith Empire is said to field "millions" of troops across "thousands" of planets
The Republic Navy is said to consist of "hundreds" of fleets
The fate of both Revan and Vitiate is left ambiguous


With respect to Vitiate, he is frequently described as "supremely powerful" (an appellation he shares with ), "godlike", and an "avatar" of the dark side, not to mention "brilliant", "genius", "mastermind", etc. Page 148 explicitly refers to him as "history's most powerful dark side master." The book also claims it took a "fraction" of his powers to corrupt Revan and Malak "in mere moments."

Further details on his ritual are available: 8,000 Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas/Nathema to participate the ritual, which lasted ten days. Vitiate "orchestrated the sorcery" and the planet was "consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see." The Emperor's Voice is said to "wield the Emperor's incredible power and is capable of striking down anyone who displeases him."

Enjoy.

Well, the answer to that is, we just ignore it lol

I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request.

I'm cool with all the wanking if we'd actually see evidence of it.
The same applies to Abeloth.

Originally posted by jdoe310
If the character said it was unblockable, then drained 3 council members, you have to prove there's a defense for it. Since you can't, you lose.
Character statements that say things like 'unblockable', 'unbeatable', 'most powerful', can be taken with a grain of salt, especially if its a lying character.



That's my point. No sourcebook has ever said it's unblockable. That's a pretty huge point to leave out.

As with mostall things, I'm sure there are limitations/defenses to the technique. The Dark Reaper defense is the most likely candidate.

Its certainly possible, yes maybe even likely. Only a handful know that defense though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its certainly possible, yes maybe even likely. Only a handful know that defense though.

I'm not suggesting that Sidious knows it (though he certainly knows of it), I'm simply trying to reconcile what appears to be a blatant use of the no limits fallacy.

Traya vs Sidious? Unblockable drain? People, you can't be serious...

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not suggesting that Sidious knows it (though he certainly knows of it), I'm simply trying to reconcile what appears to be a blatant use of the no limits fallacy.

Thank the Lord someone gets it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Thank the Lord someone gets it.

You need not thank me, loyal servant, this is simply what I do.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not suggesting that Sidious knows it (though he certainly knows of it), I'm simply trying to reconcile what appears to be a blatant use of the no limits fallacy.

I've never said that no defense is possible. Just that there is no known defense. We can speculate about a possible defense all we want, but there is no proven one. The technique is unconventional, it stands to reason that conventional Force defenses wouldn't affect it. As for an unconventional defense? The Dark Reaper case is the only possibility that I'm aware of.

And that isn't even a defense.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You need not thank me, loyal servant, this is simply what I do.

Silence worm or do I have to get the gag and rope again?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Character statements that say things like 'unblockable', 'unbeatable', 'most powerful', can be taken with a grain of salt, especially if its a lying character.
Yet when said character says something and then proves it against 3 members of the council, the burden of proof is shifted to you.




No sourcebook ever said character X could beat character Y, or even mentioned the drain. Therefore, using your logic, everything is wrong. You are terrible at this.

Originally posted by jdoe310
Yet when said character says something and then proves it against 3 members of the council, the burden of proof is shifted to you.
But the question is, is that the SAME move that Nihilus can use, or is it just her using Drain Life on three council members.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I haven't posted on ComicVine in a while and I think Silver is semi-retired. But drawing upon my immense and intimate comprehension of my fellow man, I assure you he'd probably just interpret it the same way that queer NemeBro did. Aka the correct interpretation.

Only a dumbass sodomite would read it otherwise.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Aka the correct interpretation.

Only a dumbass sodomite would read it otherwise.

I predict that you will soon cross swords with not only Nephthys, but an enigmatic, newly-registered member over this very issue. Expect the poster in question to be caustic and diametrically opposed to the idea that Vitiate is anything but omnipotent.

Maybe we'll get lucky and SW_LeGeND will come back to back his boy Vitiate.