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random encounter
who wins

Circe

Loki.

Circe wins. Near WW stats and better magician than loki.

How is she a better magician than Loki?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How is she a better magician than Loki?
Transmutating someone like captain marvel with magic while loki failed to do something like that to thor and had to amp himself with twilight sword. I'm not saying that their magic resistance is even but its close enough to say circe is better than him in magic. Not in power though, loki has some great feats like beating BRB, Dargo and Eric masterson together but he isn't that much near circe in physical stats and that's why he loses.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Transmutating someone like captain marvel with magic while loki failed to do something like that to thor and had to amp himself with twilight sword. I'm not saying that their magic resistance is even but its close enough to say circe is better than him in magic. Not in power though, loki has some great feats like beating BRB, Dargo and Eric masterson together but he isn't that much near circe in physical stats and that's why he loses.

Loki managed to turn Bor into snow. So not really seeing how Circe managing to transmute Cap whereas Loki needed outside assistance to do so against Thor means she's better at magic than he is?

As far as physical stats go, he's more than capable of entering in prolonged combat with Thor and others and truth be told, doesn't need to engage in physical combat with the likes of Circe anyway. Also, what strength feats/physical showings are you citing to suggest that's why Circe would beat him?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Loki managed to turn Bor into snow. So not really seeing how Circe managing to transmute Cap whereas Loki needed outside assistance to do so against Thor means she's better at magic than he is?

As far as physical stats go, he's more than capable of entering in prolonged combat with Thor and others and truth be told, doesn't need to engage in physical combat with the likes of Circe anyway. Also, what strength feats/physical showings are you citing to suggest that's why Circe would beat him?
You mean the sucker attack? Circe split greek pantheon into greek and roman pantheon. Yeah, it means she is better than him, rhetorics wouldn't help you here.

No, he isn't. Thor beats the shit out of him in physical combat quickly and people like wrecker have oneshotted him. Likes of circe? In AA her shield held off every hero on earth. She has wrestled evenly with diana.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You mean the sucker attack? Circe split greek pantheon into greek and roman pantheon. Yeah, it means she is better than him, rhetorics wouldn't help you here.

No, he isn't. Thor beats the shit out of him in physical combat quickly and people like wrecker have oneshotted him. Likes of circe? In AA her shield held off every hero on earth. She has wrestled evenly with diana.

Circe did that with Hecate's power. It's about as valid as citing the time Loki essentially siphoned all of Asgard's energy into himself. Doesn't mean much in a random encounter. And it certainly doesn't mean she's better than him.

Loki and Thor have grappled with one another and Loki's proven strong enough to hold his own before ultimately losing. And then we also have feats of Loki not being one shot by Thor and even managing to remain conscious after being attacked by the Destroyer Armor. Guy's managed to slap the shit out of Masterson Thor like he was a b1tch.

If you want, we can compare spell craft and what the two of them have done in combat unaided or unamped. Because I'm fairly sure Loki's displayed a greater range of mystical power and its applications than Circe has.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Circe did that with Hecate's power. It's about as valid as citing the time Loki essentially siphoned all of Asgard's energy into himself. Doesn't mean much in a random encounter. And it certainly doesn't mean she's better than him.

Loki and Thor have grappled with one another and Loki's proven strong enough to hold his own before ultimately losing. And then we also have feats of Loki not being one shot by Thor and even managing to remain conscious after being attacked by the Destroyer Armor. Guy's managed to slap the shit out of Masterson Thor like he was a b1tch.

If you want, we can compare spell craft and what the two of them have done in combat unaided or unamped. Because I'm fairly sure Loki's displayed a greater range of mystical power and its applications than Circe has.
Yeah I forgot about that, and bor was essentialy sucker attacked. Not a feat I'd apply here.

Low showing for thor, loki is a normal frost giant who are class 50 IIRC. Thor on average has beat the shit out of loki in personal combat and Sif has survived being uppercutted unharmed by destroyer in the same comic where it was stomping thor. Masterson was a *****, so its nothing new.

Yeah, loki has more appearances but on average he doesn't bitches every hero on earth which circe has done twice and one was while being insane.

I say this is pretty close.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah I forgot about that, and bor was essentialy sucker attacked. Not a feat I'd apply here.

Low showing for thor, loki is a normal frost giant who are class 50 IIRC. Thor on average has beat the shit out of loki in personal combat and Sif has survived being uppercutted unharmed by destroyer in the same comic where it was stomping thor. Masterson was a *****, so its nothing new.

Yeah, loki has more appearances but on average he doesn't bitches every hero on earth which circe has done twice and one was while being insane.

Even when "sucker attacked", Bor can't lower his durability or default defenses. And Loki still turned him into snow. Had Bor been ready, that obviously wouldn't have happened, but it's still a highly impressive feat.

Not really. Loki and Thor have consistently had prolonged fights. Thor one shotting Loki certainly isn't the average.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Stats/LokiDurability11.jpg

Not sure what Circe is going to do physically to Loki that Thor didn't. We also have examples of Loki weathering strikes from Mjolnir and Stormbreaker and still not being OHKO'd and then turning around and promptly treating the Thor Corps like assclowns. Handbook ratings really mean jackshit when compared to actual on panel evidence, and consistently, Loki's incredibly durable for his character archetype and "official rating".

So you're using two of Circe's highest feats - which likewise weren't her average - to justify her beating Loki? Makes perfect sense.

But, okay, let's compare actual magical skill, finesse, ability, firepower, etc. How is Circe a better magician than Loki?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Even when "sucker attacked", Bor can't lower his durability or default defenses. And Loki still turned him into snow. Had Bor been ready, that obviously wouldn't have happened, but it's still a highly impressive feat.

Not really. Loki and Thor have consistently had prolonged fights. Thor one shotting Loki certainly isn't the average.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Stats/LokiDurability11.jpg

Not sure what Circe is going to do physically to Loki that Thor didn't. We also have examples of Loki weathering strikes from Mjolnir and Stormbreaker and still not being OHKO'd and then turning around and promptly treating the Thor Corps like assclowns. Handbook ratings really mean jackshit when compared to actual on panel evidence, and consistently, Loki's incredibly durable for his character archetype and "official rating".

So you're using two of Circe's highest feats - which likewise weren't her average - to justify her beating Loki? Makes perfect sense.

But, okay, let's compare actual magical skill, finesse, ability, firepower, etc. How is Circe a better magician than Loki?
That's not how comics work. Doc samson koed hulk with a sucker shot, you think that he can do that if hulk was aware? Bor wasn't prepared and a spell isn't a physical blow which can be tanked, Morpheus was captured by a noob magician while being unaware. Its not THAT impressive and what feats of resisting transmutation Bor has? Cap has resisted Spear of Destiny and 5-d magic, circe transmuted him easily.

Thor HUMILIATING loki and Fenris with copies of mjolnir isn't the scan you should post here as that shows just how outclassed loki was there and one scene doesn't contradicts everything like thor breaking loki's arm by just squeezing.

That's his highest combat feat yet and isn't how he is portrayed always and even in that instance thor beat the shit out of him IIRC. Major force once fought entire league and was winning, that doesn't means he is always at that level.

Its a rating system and is usually correct, loki isn't a class 100 character you're making out to be.

Yeah, let's do it. Compare circe transmuting cap and dissolving diana back to clay, creating a shield to hold every hero on earth, easily turning diana into a mortal and granting herself diana's powers, knocking superman with a portion of her blast, beating the shit out of black adam. Circe has no low showings to bring her average down like loki.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Even when "sucker attacked", Bor can't lower his durability or default defenses. And Loki still turned him into snow. Had Bor been ready, that obviously wouldn't have happened, but it's still a highly impressive feat.
And Bor's magic resistance is obviously lacking. Keep in mind even if it was a sucker attack (and it was since he had his guard down), he couldn't resist the effect once he realized what was going on AND later still, he couldn't undo the effect once he was fully transformed.

Like ABHI said, Loki needed an amp to transmute Thor (guard down or not).


Then you have stuff like this :
http://imageshack.us/a/img833/9107/lokia.th.png http://imageshack.us/a/img837/4344/lokibh.th.png

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's not how comics work. Doc samson koed hulk with a sucker shot, you think that he can do that if hulk was aware? Bor wasn't prepared and a spell isn't a physical blow which can be tanked, Morpheus was captured by a noob magician while being unaware. Its not THAT impressive and what feats of resisting transmutation Bor has? Cap has resisted Spear of Destiny and 5-d magic, circe transmuted him easily.

Thor HUMILIATING loki and Fenris with copies of mjolnir isn't the scan you should post here as that shows just how outclassed loki was there and one scene doesn't contradicts everything like thor breaking loki's arm by just squeezing.

That's his highest combat feat yet and isn't how he is portrayed always and even in that instance thor beat the shit out of him IIRC. Major force once fought entire league and was winning, that doesn't means he is always at that level.

Its a rating system and is usually correct, loki isn't a class 100 character you're making out to be.

Yeah, let's do it. Compare circe transmuting cap and dissolving diana back to clay, creating a shield to hold every hero on earth, easily turning diana into a mortal and granting herself diana's powers, knocking superman with a portion of her blast, beating the shit out of black adam. Circe has no low showings to bring her average down like loki.

Doesn't even begin to make sense. Cap resisted the Spear of Destiny and 5-D magic and then gets transmuted by Circe, eh? Are you implying Circe is more powerful than either of those? Because that's ridiculous. And yes, Asgardians are, by default, highly resistant to magic. By actively defending themselves with either their own magic or special weapons, their odds are further in their favor. By constrast, Circe's consistent transmutation feats include turning nobodies into animals ala the Odyssey. I'd like some context, issue numbers, or scans of this Cap transmutation, too.

That scan showed that even a pissed off Thor couldn't one shot Loki like you implied. And yeah, Loki was getting his ass kicked, but he was still very much conscious and able to retreat. Thor breaking Loki's arm with Mjolnir with a single tap is a high end feat for Thor considering all of Thor and Loki's battle; trying to claim it isn't is pretty stupid. But by all means, prove that it is. I mean, I thought it was common knowledge that on the average, Loki has always been able to fight Thor to a standstill until Thor manages to beat him up. How that can be used to claim Circe is more powerful than him is ridiculous.

Not really, no. Loki when he actually fights in combat has always been able to push Thor to his limits. He loses in the end, but that doesn't discredit his power, especially when his brother is armed with a plot device weapon designed to muck up with his own potent magic.

The hell? Now you're trying to tell me we should listen to handbooks? And no, Loki's not a "class 100", but he's far more hardy and formidable than you're making him out to be.

Loki has:

-Captured and held Death against her will.
-Absorbed the energies of Mangog and Valhalla to take unto himself.
-Has cast illusions to fool the likes of Odin.
-Capable of taking attacks from Surtur with the Twilight Sword and conversely harming him
-Pimpsmacked Masterson Thor till he was KO'd
-Vastly more versatile than Circe
-Transmuted a trans-level being
-Humilated Seth in his own dimension
-Owned the Thor Corps
-Is capable of keeping his identity hidden from Mephisto in his realm.

He's clearly more skilled than she is and his magic is far more open ended than hers.

Originally posted by zopzop

And Bor's magic resistance is obviously lacking. Keep in mind even if it was a sucker attack (and it was since he had his guard down), he couldn't resist the effect once he realized what was going on AND later still, he couldn't undo the effect once he was fully transformed.

Like ABHI said, Loki needed an amp to transmute Thor (guard down or not).


Then you have stuff like this :
http://imageshack.us/a/img833/9107/lokia.th.png http://imageshack.us/a/img837/4344/lokibh.th.png

And Loki's magic is obviously very potent? It's his best transmutation feat to date, no bones about it, but it happened. So again, I'm not sure how Loki transmuting Bor under his own power has anything to do with Loki needing an amp to transmute Thor, especially considering Loki's knowledge of sorcery and overt power has increased since Simonson's days.

And speaking of Simonson...

Thor breaking Loki's arm with a single Mjolnir tap isn't the norm for the two. I don't see how anyone can look at their vast and storied history of combat and get to that conclusion. Hell, under the same writer, Loki no-sold getting his head cut off. That's more of a badass feat for Thor/Mjolnir than it is a knock against Loki, who's durability far outweighs the display of physical strength he's shown.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And Loki's magic is obviously very potent? It's his best transmutation feat to date, no bones about it, but it happened. So again, I'm not sure how Loki transmuting Bor under his own power has anything to do with Loki needing an amp to transmute Thor, especially considering Loki's knowledge of sorcery and overt power has increased since Simonson's days.

And speaking of Simonson...

Thor breaking Loki's arm with a single Mjolnir tap isn't the norm for the two. I don't see how anyone can look at their vast and storied history of combat and get to that conclusion. Hell, under the same writer, Loki no-sold getting his head cut off. That's more of a badass feat for Thor/Mjolnir than it is a knock against Loki, who's durability far outweighs the display of physical strength he's shown.
I was just pointing out the GLARING disparity between Loki attempting to transmute a supposedly Trans (Low Skyfather?) level character and Thor.

Regarding the arm snapping thing, that was in response to you saying Loki pwned the Thor Corps. BRB, Dargo, and Masterson Thor were no match for Loki; yet Thor punches his face in almost EVERY time they fight? Unless you believe Thor is THAT much more powerful than those three combined, you got to admit that there was something "off" about that battle. That issue was so dripping with PIS it smelled like urine.

Originally posted by zopzop
I was just pointing out the GLARING disparity between Loki attempting to transmute a supposedly Trans (Low Skyfather?) level character and Thor.

Regarding the arm snapping thing, that was in response to you saying Loki pwned the Thor Corps. BRB, Dargo, and Masterson Thor were no match for Loki; yet Thor punches his face in almost EVERY time they fight? Unless you believe Thor is THAT much more powerful than those three combined, you got to admit that there was something "off" about that battle. That issue was so dripping with PIS it smelled like urine.

High end feats exist. A lot of Circe's feats which have been name dropped are some of her own or when she's directly been amped by Hecate. I never denied that. And again, Loki's studies and overt mystical power have increased since the days of Walt Simonson.

Consistently, Thor gets the upper hand over Loki due to being physically more powerful and having a weapon designed to nullify a great deal of what Loki brings to the table. Thor doesn't consistently easily beat the shit out Loki and Loki's feats suggest him being a physical specimen who's far more durable than he looks. Not sure how that issue qualifies as PIS; Loki's done higher end shit before like forcibly siphon energy from Mangog, fight Dormammu, battle Surtur, etc.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
High end feats exist. A lot of Circe's feats which have been name dropped are some of her own or when she's directly been amped by Hecate. I never denied that. And again, Loki's studies and overt mystical power have increased since the days of Walt Simonson.

Consistently, Thor gets the upper hand over Loki due to being physically more powerful and having a weapon designed to nullify a great deal of what Loki brings to the table. Thor doesn't consistently easily beat the shit out Loki and Loki's feats suggest him being a physical specimen who's far more durable than he looks. Not sure how that issue qualifies as PIS; Loki's done higher end shit before like forcibly siphon energy from Mangog, fight Dormammu, battle Surtur, etc.
Loki beat a Team of Thor Clones each wielding a weapon equal in power to Mjolnir. If you don't see how that's PIS, there's nothing really to discuss.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Doesn't even begin to make sense. Cap resisted the Spear of Destiny and 5-D magic and then gets transmuted by Circe, eh? Are you implying Circe is more powerful than either of those? Because that's ridiculous. And yes, Asgardians are, by default, highly resistant to magic. By actively defending themselves with either their own magic or special weapons, their odds are further in their favor. By constrast, Circe's consistent transmutation feats include turning nobodies into animals ala the Odyssey. I'd like some context, issue numbers, or scans of this Cap transmutation, too.

That scan showed that even a pissed off Thor couldn't one shot Loki like you implied. And yeah, Loki was getting his ass kicked, but he was still very much conscious and able to retreat. Thor breaking Loki's arm with Mjolnir with a single tap is a high end feat for Thor considering all of Thor and Loki's battle; trying to claim it isn't is pretty stupid. But by all means, prove that it is. I mean, I thought it was common knowledge that on the average, Loki has always been able to fight Thor to a standstill until Thor manages to beat him up. How that can be used to claim Circe is more powerful than him is ridiculous.

Not really, no. Loki when he actually fights in combat has always been able to push Thor to his limits. He loses in the end, but that doesn't discredit his power, especially when his brother is armed with a plot device weapon designed to muck up with his own potent magic.

The hell? Now you're trying to tell me we should listen to handbooks? And no, Loki's not a "class 100", but he's far more hardy and formidable than you're making him out to be.

Loki has:

-Captured and held Death against her will.
-Absorbed the energies of Mangog and Valhalla to take unto himself.
-Has cast illusions to fool the likes of Odin.
-Capable of taking attacks from Surtur with the Twilight Sword and conversely harming him
-Pimpsmacked Masterson Thor till he was KO'd
-Vastly more versatile than Circe
-Transmuted a trans-level being
-Humilated Seth in his own dimension
-Owned the Thor Corps
-Is capable of keeping his identity hidden from Mephisto in his realm.

He's clearly more skilled than she is and his magic is far more open ended than hers.


I have to agree with Jake, Loki is one bad mofo period! Loki is Thanos lite, as for his prep, his knowledge and Loki is always studying new magic or perfecting it, Loki is second to Odin in raw magic knowledge.

I'll take Loki all day

Originally posted by zopzop
Loki beat a Team of Thor Clones each wielding a weapon equal in power to Mjolnir. If you don't see how that's PIS, there's nothing really to discuss.

That's really not Loki's best fight or feat, either, but okay.

Keeping in mind that Eric and Dargo were relatively inexperienced in comparison to Thor and Bill was the only definite threat, coupled with the category of Loki's other feats and showings, how you get to the conclusion its PIS is beyond me.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
That's really not Loki's best fight or feat, either, but okay.

Keeping in mind that Eric and Dargo were relatively inexperienced in comparison to Thor and Bill was the only definite threat, coupled with the category of Loki's other feats and showings, how you get to the conclusion its PIS is beyond me.
Easy. Loki did nothing of consequence vs Surtur or Dormammu.

Originally posted by zopzop
Easy. Loki did nothing of consequence vs Surtur or Dormammu.

He harmed Surtur and kept in the fight. He also took a swipe and blast from Twilight alongside Odin and still remained conscious enough to fight.

I'd say Loki contributing to Surtur's defeat - whom Odin couldn't beat alone - > him beating up the Thor Corps. And Loki's gradually grown more powerful and learned in magic.

I don't see how you can decry that feat as PIS when you look at Loki's entire history as a whole, though, honestly. But if you're going to call all of Loki's high end feats PIS, may as well end the discussion here and now. *shrug*

Originally posted by abhilegend
Circe wins. Near WW stats and better magician than loki.

Lol, I'd certainly like to see you prove that.

She was able to transmute her body to give her near Wonder Woman stats in Rucka's run, but Loki also has more than one showing where the gap between him and Thor is not unlike that between Circe and Diana.

Sure Thor's beaten him up more than once but Diana has curb stomped Circe as well. Not to mention that way Loki beat the shit out of Masterson Thor and tanked the Mjolnir blows is above anything Circe has ever done physically.

I'd also like to point out the time that Loki empowering a human with small a portion of his power gave him enough juice that Hulk could only hurt him with the tooth of the Midgard Serpent he created IIRC. Pretty sure that the minion the human Loki created was giving an armored up Hulk a lot of trouble, I believe it was Fenris or whatever.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
He harmed Surtur and kept in the fight. He also took a swipe and blast from Twilight alongside Odin and still remained conscious enough to fight.

I'd say Loki contributing to Surtur's defeat - whom Odin couldn't beat alone - > him beating up the Thor Corps. And Loki's gradually grown more powerful and learned in magic.

I don't see how you can decry that feat as PIS when you look at Loki's entire history as a whole, though, honestly. But if you're going to call all of Loki's high end feats PIS, may as well end the discussion here and now. *shrug*
A bee can "harm" me but it's still gonna get killed rather easily. Loki did nothing but "sting" Surtur like once and then evade him/run for his life.

Loki contributed to beating Surtur? It's like saying adding a bucket of water to the ocean is contributing to raise sea levels, sure it's accurate but you know........

Loki survived a direct blast from Surtur's Twilight Sword:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Fights/LokivsSurtur01353.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Fights/LokivsSurtur02.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Fights/LokivsSurtur03.jpg

That alone makes that issue a very impressive showing for Loki. Not to mention that f*cking Surtur felt those blasts.

Anyone have scans of the time Loki and Karnilla's combined forces were able to throw back Infinity and hold him off temporarily? That wayward portion of Odin that was threatening the Universe. That was also a very impressive showing.

There was also the time he was able to temporarily hold himself against Seth in his very home dimension. This was when Seth had absorbed the power of the entire Egyptian pantheon and had reached the point where he went toe to toe with Odin on a Multiversal scale.

^ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/192/thor18812134qd.jpg/

Thanks bro.

Recently, Loki has beaten the shit out of the Disir:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Fights/LokivsDisir01SiegeLoki1.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Fights/LokivsDisir02.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Fights/LokivsDisir03.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Fights/LokivsDisir04.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Fights/LokivsDisir05.jpg

That's a combat showing Wonder Woman herself would be envious of. Thanks to ODG for the scans.

Hey Jake, do you have scans of Loki vs. Thor from his recent flashback miniseries? It was the battle that had Loki shape-shifting. I recall it being not only in close combat but fairly brutal. I'd post them myself but I'm not on my home computer, and it was the last issue (Number 5 I think) if that helps.

I do, yeah. Or, well, ODG does.

http://s388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Fights/?action=view&current=LokivsThor49Loki4.jpg

Mjolnir-ness Thor beat shape shifting Loki in close quarters, but he did so with effort. That's pretty consistent with how they've been portrayed as foes since Lee/Kirby; Thor is clearly more powerful, but Loki's guile and cunning coupled with his own power makes him a match for a time.

Thanks man.

No prob. Thanks to ODG for the scans and respect thread.

But yeah, I'm not seeing how Circe is better than Loki at magic. At all.

Didn't Circe have an impressive feat against the New Gods? During or close to Countdown?

Loki.

Circe has gotten a huge bump. She takes this, handily.

https://i.imgur.com/9BrZlok.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/z2B00Rl.jpg