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Nate Grey & Vulcan vs Superman & Green Lantern
No BFR.
Fight in Unbreakable Football Stadium. No one Can leave.

Two Omega Mutants vs Two JLA big guns. Who takes it.

Team 2 beats the shit out of team 1. Shut up Id.

Even if team JL wins. It would be very hard fought. But of course, it involves Superman so you vote for him.

Originally posted by armedforbattle
Even if team JL wins. It would be very hard fought. But of course, it involves Superman so you vote for him.
There is no "even" here. That's not true at all, just because you hate superman doesn't mean I've to say "superman loses" to make you happy.

Its not that. Its the fact that you say he will beat anybody. When you know damn well supes would not destroy nate or Vulcan. Either one of them could pull a majority, your blinded by your love for Clark so you deny feats and what's on panel.

Originally posted by armedforbattle
Its not that. Its the fact that you say he will beat anybody. When you know damn well supes would not destroy nate or Vulcan. Either one of them could pull a majority, your blinded by your love for Clark so you deny feats and what's on panel.
When he has the feats to beat almost anybody up, why would I say he would lose to random anybodies? Vulcan and nate can only beat superman for a majority if we ignore superman's feats, nothing else.

Originally posted by abhilegend
When he has the feats to beat almost anybody up, why would I say he would lose to random anybodies? Vulcan and nate can only beat superman for a majority if we ignore superman's feats, nothing else.


Hope you're not serious. Please edit and put "lol" after this sentence or .

I am not saying either one would destroy supes.
I am not saying supes would destroy either one.

But if you look at supes feats vs nates feats. There is a solid match-up.

Would you say supes could beat dark phoenix or Franklin Richards?
Because he is equal to them.

I can admit that supes, along with surfer, are the gold Standard for high heralds. And as for this thread a debate could be made for either team to take the win.

Originally posted by carver9
Hope you're not serious. Please edit and put "lol" after this sentence or .
I'm totally serious.
Originally posted by armedforbattle
I am not saying either one would destroy supes.
I am not saying supes would destroy either one.

But if you look at supes feats vs nates feats. There is a solid match-up.

Would you say supes could beat dark phoenix or Franklin Richards?
Because he is equal to them.

I can admit that supes, along with surfer, are the gold Standard for high heralds. And as for this thread a debate could be made for either team to take the win.
Neither am I saying that superman would destroy nate, he would do that to vulcan though. Lulz at comparing nate to dark phoenix or franklin via hyperbolic comments.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/12/121651/2312437-nate___dark_phoenix_super.jpg

Stated On panel. Can't deny it.

Originally posted by armedforbattle
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/12/121651/2312437-nate___dark_phoenix_super.jpg

Stated On panel. Can't deny it.
Extrapolation, bro! Nate never showed power anywhere near the level of dark phoenix. That seriously reeks of hyperbole. Even shaman nate wasn't at that level.

Linking minds on opposite sides of the multi verse? Inter-dimensional teleportation? Teleporting others between universe's? Genetic matter manipulation? Isolating planets gravity? His dreams f**king with reality? Telepathically assaulting Jean?

The only reason his feats don't match dark phoenix is because he "will burn himself out" when he became shaman he got closer to controlling it and being able to go all out. Then he got depowered.... he has never had mental blocks to help control it (unlike jean) His mind would work right through any mental block put on him. Where Jean grew up with her powers and learned to use them over time. Nate was just kinda given godlike TP/TK powers

Originally posted by armedforbattle
Linking minds on opposite sides of the multi verse? Inter-dimensional teleportation? Teleporting others between universe's? Genetic matter manipulation? Isolating planets gravity? His dreams f**king with reality? Telepathically assaulting Jean?

The only reason his feats don't match dark phoenix is because he "will burn himself out" when he became shaman he got closer to controlling it and being able to go all out. Then he got depowered.... he has never had mental blocks to help control it (unlike jean) His mind would work right through any mental block put on him. Where Jean grew up with her powers and learned to use them over time. Nate was just kinda given godlike TP/TK powers
Those aren't anywhere close to what phoenix has done, sorry. He had his powers stabilized for a long time and he still got nowhere close to that level. Even the biggest nate grey fan on this site Id would accept that.

I just admitted that and explained it. He knows that if he goes all out he will "burn himself out" the point being he has the potential to match the phoenix.

Originally posted by armedforbattle
I just admitted that and explained it. He knows that if he goes all out he will "burn himself out" the point being he has the potential to match the phoenix.
That was no longer a problem once he switched the bodies with an alternate reality X-man and it stabilized his powers. That's when he became "Shaman X-man". Read X-man series and you will find out that he was never close to phoenix level power.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That was no longer a problem once he switched the bodies with an alternate reality X-man and it stabilized his powers. That's when he became "Shaman X-man". Read X-man series and you will find out that he was never close to phoenix level power.
Well if you read it you would know pre-shaman and shaman have the same abilities just shaman is experienced with the powers and can use them better. The powers aren't different, its just how he uses them. And are you not reading my comments I gave you the reason as to why he can't match Phoenix. And a scan that said they have the same power levels.

Originally posted by armedforbattle
Well if you read it you would know pre-shaman and shaman have the same abilities just shaman is experienced with the powers and can use them better. The powers aren't different, its just how he uses them. And are you not reading my comments I gave you the reason as to why he can't match Phoenix. And a scan that said they have the same power levels.
That was a scan from before he was stabilized. When he became shaman x-man, the danger of burning out was removed and he could use all his power and not burn out. Shaman X-man is X-man at his full potential, there is nothing further shown in the comics.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That was a scan from before he was stabilized. When he became shaman x-man, the danger of burning out was removed and he could use all his power and not burn out. Shaman X-man is X-man at his full potential, there is nothing further shown in the comics. shaman asnt around for long, Jean has been around for a while and has a lot of feats. Nate was short lived.


None the less. This thread isn't Jean vs nate. Its nate vs clark which nate is the superior

Nate and Vulcan wins.

Originally posted by carver9
Nate and Vulcan wins.

Originally posted by armedforbattle
shaman asnt around for long, Jean has been around for a while and has a lot of feats. Nate was short lived.


None the less. This thread isn't Jean vs nate. Its nate vs clark which nate is the superior
He was around for more than 3 YEARS IIRC around the same time Jean has been a phoenix. Enough time to gauge his level and it was planetary at best.

You've to prove that.

Yeah because you prove everything you say?

How is superman gonna beat nate. Nate could just go intangible and not be touched. While nate slowly destroys him.

Originally posted by armedforbattle
Yeah because you prove everything you say?

How is superman gonna beat nate. Nate could just go intangible and not be touched. While nate slowly destroys him.
I do. Just read the thread I post in.

Superman can go intangible too and HV has affected intangible beings.

nate/vulcan

Superman vs Nate (tournament style)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t540646.html

coffee1

Originally posted by "Id"
Superman vs Nate (tournament style)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t540646.html

coffee1
T-vo would **** nate up.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He was around for more than 3 YEARS IIRC around the same time Jean has been a phoenix. Enough time to gauge his level and it was planetary at best.

You've to prove that.

Nate's destructive capacity is around planet level going by feats; even pre-Shaman Nate could destroy the moon with a single attack.

Taken from X-Man #45

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/1016/xma45p03.jpg
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5561/xma45p04.jpg
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6540/xma45p0506.jpg

Shaman should be planet level at least, especially since he fought Qabiri who is a planet-buster IIRC.

However, Shaman and Vulcan still win in spite of the firepower/speed difference. Why? Nate's H4X.

First, Nate can enter the planck length which grants him a sort of temporal super-speed. It allows him exist outside/in-between moments in time. It could also be interpreted as functioning similarly to a time-stop (which is something Nate can also do in a localized area, see Cable v1 #30). What's even better is that Nate can drag others with him into it. For instance, he dragged Mimic with him in Dark X-Men #3. He can likely drag Vulcan with him in there, and they can proceed to go to town on team two.

Secondly, Nate can exist as a disembodied consciousness even if his body is destroyed. (He possessed Norman as well.) He can make himself a new body if his original is destroyed through the use of psi-contsructs. He can also bring others back to life through this method, Maddie for instance. I believe Nate also used this method to bring Gwen Stacy back for a while. So, if Vulcan is killed before they can enter the planck length Nate can possibly bring him back.

Thirdly, defeat via ring-out. Shaman Nate can teleport himself and others into different realities/universes.

Taken from X-Man #73

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/4392/53410289.jpg
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5382/99740598.jpg

Heck, pre-Shaman Nate can even time travel in the 1996 X-Man Annual. He chased Sugarman into the Age of Apocalyse time-line, after Sugarman used Nate's powers to open a portal there somehow.

Nate and Vulcan take down Supe's and Gl pretty handily, they're too exotic with their abilities, especially Nate, seeing that he actually has reality warping under his belt

Nate wins. Vulcan's just good for a meat shield I suppose.

Vulcan absorbs every bit of energy and heat vision GL and Supes use. Hell he could probably draw the sunlight directly out of Clark's body.

Isnt Nate still depowered? either way Superman crushes Vulcan then Nate gets dogpiled

Depends how its matching are paired.

Vulcan beats any GL not named Kyle. But loses to Superman.

X-Man beats either GL or Superman.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Isnt Nate still depowered? either way Superman crushes Vulcan then Nate gets dogpiled

I believe so but I think we're talking about Shaman Nate here.

OP are we talking about Nate in his prime or current Nate?

Originally posted by KingD19
Vulcan absorbs every bit of energy and heat vision GL and Supes use. Hell he could probably draw the sunlight directly out of Clark's body.
Supes has no way of putting Nate down, his power set outclasses his in versatility greatly, hardly any concrete counters

Team 2 wins

Vulcan is very inconsistent

Anyway, I'm going to continue to assume this is Nate in his prime.

Do either Superman or the Green Lantern have a counter for Nathaniel's teleportation, planck length, and other numerous abilities? Do they have a way to kill his consciousness/spirit to keep him from coming back? If not, Nate and Vulcan win.

Would like to point out that Nate can also effect incorporeals with his psionics. He was able to shred Xavier's astral body in X-Man #10, and overwhelm him telepathically.

Team two. Superman can tank everything team 1 could dish out.

Muties ftw.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Team two. Superman can tank everything team 1 could dish out.

I'm curious about what's going to allow Superman to return from being teleported into another universe/reality/time-line.

Because Nate can totally do that.

Taken from X-Man #66

http://i.imgur.com/yjvmA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pceom.jpg

Ayup.

Yes it is shaman nate. Sorry for not specifying.

Originally posted by "Id"
Depends how its matching are paired.

Vulcan beats any GL not named Kyle. But loses to Superman.

X-Man beats either GL or Superman.

Agreed except the last part.

Again.

What counter does Superman have for getting tossed into an alternate reality? Victory through ring-out is a viable option for Nate, and also how strong is Superman's telepathic defense/resistance? Nate's telepathy is above Xavier's, so Kal better have some good resistance or he's either getting possessed or his powers shut down.

Which Green Lantern is it?

OP should really specify things, tbh.

If it's Hal or Kyle, and it's pre-reboot, then Team 2 wins.

Post reboot, not so sure.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Which Green Lantern is it?

OP should really specify things, tbh.

If it's Hal or Kyle, and it's pre-reboot, then Team 2 wins.

Post reboot, not so sure.
I thought I put Hal. My B. And its current.

Team 1 then, though not for long.

Originally posted by Falcon Man
Nate's destructive capacity is around planet level going by feats; even pre-Shaman Nate could destroy the moon with a single attack.

Taken from X-Man #45

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/1016/xma45p03.jpg
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5561/xma45p04.jpg
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6540/xma45p0506.jpg

Shaman should be planet level at least, especially since he fought Qabiri who is a planet-buster IIRC.

However, Shaman and Vulcan still win in spite of the firepower/speed difference. Why? Nate's H4X.

First, Nate can enter the planck length which grants him a sort of temporal super-speed. It allows him exist outside/in-between moments in time. It could also be interpreted as functioning similarly to a time-stop (which is something Nate can also do in a localized area, see Cable v1 #30). What's even better is that Nate can drag others with him into it. For instance, he dragged Mimic with him in Dark X-Men #3. He can likely drag Vulcan with him in there, and they can proceed to go to town on team two.

Secondly, Nate can exist as a disembodied consciousness even if his body is destroyed. (He possessed Norman as well.) He can make himself a new body if his original is destroyed through the use of psi-contsructs. He can also bring others back to life through this method, Maddie for instance. I believe Nate also used this method to bring Gwen Stacy back for a while. So, if Vulcan is killed before they can enter the planck length Nate can possibly bring him back.

Thirdly, defeat via ring-out. Shaman Nate can teleport himself and others into different realities/universes.

Taken from X-Man #73

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/4392/53410289.jpg
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5382/99740598.jpg

Heck, pre-Shaman Nate can even time travel in the 1996 X-Man Annual. He chased Sugarman into the Age of Apocalyse time-line, after Sugarman used Nate's powers to open a portal there somehow.
You think that's impressive? Destroying moons and shit? Superman has destroyed earth via shockwaves of his punches.

Planck time? Hal can stop time totally and superman can overpower time stop via superspeed. Hal stops time around vulcan and nate, game over.

Both hal and superman can cross dimensions and hal can time travel too.Originally posted by Falcon Man
Anyway, I'm going to continue to assume this is Nate in his prime.

Do either Superman or the Green Lantern have a counter for Nathaniel's teleportation, planck length, and other numerous abilities? Do they have a way to kill his consciousness/spirit to keep him from coming back? If not, Nate and Vulcan win.

Would like to point out that Nate can also effect incorporeals with his psionics. He was able to shred Xavier's astral body in X-Man #10, and overwhelm him telepathically.
Superman knocks him the phuck out.Originally posted by KingD19
Vulcan absorbs every bit of energy and heat vision GL and Supes use. Hell he could probably draw the sunlight directly out of Clark's body.
Good luck for him working that on hal. A sun eater tried that on superman and failed.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You think that's impressive? Destroying moons and shit? Superman has destroyed earth via shockwaves of his punches.

Planck time? Hal can stop time totally and superman can overpower time stop via superspeed. Hal stops time around vulcan and nate, game over.
if time manipulation could be overpowered by superspeed, Wally essentially wouldn't have any issues with zoom, seeing that's not the case time manipulation and superspeed are two different things, Supes isn't overriding time manip/doing a thing to Nate in planck time, also Nate can exist OUTSIDE of time, more than just just time traveling
yes superman has destroyed earth with his punches, despite the fact the earth still exist, seems sensible to me


yes superman can knock out a being that is comprised of pure psionic energy/intangible that can't be harmed by physical means, makes perfect sense

show me an instance where superman has crossed dimensions under his own power ( excluding precrisis) you're also disregarding the fact that Nate is capable of reality warping, and a multiversal telepath

and Vulcan could drain Lantern , rather pretty handily, likewise nate is capable draining energies as well, mental energies to be precise, therefore leaving the body of the opponent as an empty husk

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
if time manipulation could be overpowered by superspeed, Wally essentially wouldn't have any issues with zoom, seeing that's not the case time manipulation and superspeed are two different things, Supes isn't overriding time manip/doing a thing to Nate in planck time, also Nate can exist OUTSIDE of time, more than just just time traveling
yes superman has destroyed earth with his punches, despite the fact the earth still exist, seems sensible to me


yes superman can knock out a being that is comprised of pure psionic energy/intangible that can't be harmed by physical means, makes perfect sense

show me an instance where superman has crossed dimensions under his own power ( excluding precrisis) you're also disregarding the fact that Nate is capable of reality warping, and a multiversal telepath

and Vulcan could drain Lantern , rather pretty handily, likewise nate is capable draining energies as well, mental energies to be precise, therefore leaving the body of the opponent as an empty husk
Two different things altogether. Zoom doesn't stop time, he slows it down. How did you conclude that is just baffling. Nate can go planck time all he wants when hal stops time altogether and ares still ripped nate a new hole. Don't run your mouth before you know the context. Earth was getting destroyed with each punch and getting rebuilt again.

Nate was still knocked out many times but if you really want to know superman has knocked out cyborg superman many times who is nothing but a disembodied energy in a cyborg suit. Superman has gone intangible and affected intangible beings. He sent an entire planet to another dimension in AOS 17 and escaped another dimension in MOS 90. Like I said hal would beat the phuck out of vulcan worse than havok and black bolt. He's done reality warping once and he's a planetary telepath at best, lulz at being multiversal telepath. If we're using random abilities showed once and twice, superman brings both nate and vulcan to theta state and beats their ass there or sing them out of existance or hal just use a krona buster on both.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Two different things altogether. Zoom doesn't stop time, he slows it down. How did you conclude that is just baffling. Nate can go planck time all he wants when hal stops time altogether and ares still ripped nate a new hole. Don't run your mouth before you know the context. Earth was getting destroyed with each punch and getting rebuilt again.

Nate was still knocked out many times but if you really want to know superman has knocked out cyborg superman many times who is nothing but a disembodied energy in a cyborg suit. Superman has gone intangible and affected intangible beings. He sent an entire planet to another dimension in AOS 17 and escaped another dimension in MOS 90. Like I said hal would beat the phuck out of vulcan worse than havok and black bolt. He's done reality warping once and he's a planetary telepath at best, lulz at being multiversal telepath. If we're using random abilities showed once and twice, superman brings both nate and vulcan to theta state and beats their ass there or sing them out of existance or hal just use a krona buster on both.
i never stated zoom stopped time, that was your own implication/conclusion, anywho(i forgot which issue) but in regard to zoom slowing don time, his time bible simultaneously exist in and out of time apparently, and you're missing the point, existing out of time and manipulating it are two different instances, nonetheless nate has demonstrated both, and and still "destroyed" and "destroying are two different things, once is a completion while the other is a process, obviously it all didn't happen at once, so possible you're the one that shouldn't "run your mouth" or font, secondly nate isn't merely just intangible, phasing is simply moving your molecules through the open spaces of other ones, nate exist as a conscience that could still affect the corporeal world, as i said they have no means to put him down

and he's far beyond a planetary telepath, just because certain instances doesn't call for such a feat doesn't mean it cant be replicated, nonetheless he's a very powerful telepath that was capable of tricking qabiri himself someone that would most likley wipe the floor with supes, and post the scans of him sending planets to another dimension because i would like the know the whole context of the situation, you were saying?

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
i never stated zoom stopped time, that was your own implication/conclusion, anywho(i forgot which issue) but in regard to zoom slowing don time, his time bible simultaneously exist in and out of time apparently, and you're missing the point, existing out of time and manipulating it are two different instances, nonetheless nate has demonstrated both, and and still "destroyed" and "destroying are two different things, once is a completion while the other is a process, obviously it all didn't happen at once, so possible you're the one that shouldn't "run your mouth" or font, secondly nate isn't merely just intangible, phasing is simply moving your molecules through the open spaces of other ones, nate exist as a conscience that could still affect the corporeal world, as i said they have no means to put him down

and he's far beyond a planetary telepath, just because certain instances doesn't call for such a feat doesn't mean it cant be replicated, nonetheless he's a very powerful telepath that was capable of tricking qabiri himself someone that would most likley wipe the floor with supes, and post the scans of him sending planets to another dimension because i would like the know the whole context of the situation, you were saying?
Dude, use punctuation next time. You are incoherent. As for that planet scene

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/INSANE%20FEATS/BFR%20A%20PLANET%20VIA%20SUPER%20SPEED/th_AOS617SUPERSPEEDANDUNIVERSALFREQUENCIES.jpg http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/INSANE%20FEATS/BFR%20A%20PLANET%20VIA%20SUPER%20SPEED/th_AOS617SUPERSPEEDANDUNIVERSALFREQUENCIES2.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Two different things altogether. Zoom doesn't stop time, he slows it down. How did you conclude that is just baffling. Nate can go planck time all he wants when hal stops time altogether and ares still ripped nate a new hole. Don't run your mouth before you know the context. Earth was getting destroyed with each punch and getting rebuilt again.

Nate was still knocked out many times but if you really want to know superman has knocked out cyborg superman many times who is nothing but a disembodied energy in a cyborg suit. Superman has gone intangible and affected intangible beings. He sent an entire planet to another dimension in AOS 17 and escaped another dimension in MOS 90. Like I said hal would beat the phuck out of vulcan worse than havok and black bolt. He's done reality warping once and he's a planetary telepath at best, lulz at being multiversal telepath. If we're using random abilities showed once and twice, superman brings both nate and vulcan to theta state and beats their ass there or sing them out of existance or hal just use a krona buster on both.

No, Nate does reality warping quite a bit; even in the early issues of X-Man he did things like accidentally making Maddie's thoughts real through the use of his psionics. It's a part of his power-set. Planck length has been described as stepping outside of time. There's a good chance it can counter time-stops.

Also, I'm not saying Nate and Vulcan beat them in destructive power. Rather, through ring-out or telepathy. Through their exotic abilities.

Also, Nate does in fact have a multiversal telepathy feat where he linked someone's mind with their alternate selves. Here it is.

Taken from X-Man #74

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7843/93425381.jpg
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1976/54976389.jpg
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/5890/93734055.jpg

Shaman Nate is definitely above Xavier and Martian Manhunter in the mind game.



Um, how? Care showing me a feat where Superman killed an incorporeal/insubstantial being? If you do then I'm perfectly fine with conceding.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Dude, use punctuation next time. You are incoherent. As for that planet scene

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/INSANE%20FEATS/BFR%20A%20PLANET%20VIA%20SUPER%20SPEED/th_AOS617SUPERSPEEDANDUNIVERSALFREQUENCIES.jpg http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/INSANE%20FEATS/BFR%20A%20PLANET%20VIA%20SUPER%20SPEED/th_AOS617SUPERSPEEDANDUNIVERSALFREQUENCIES2.jpg
guy,i forgot to insert the periods, you'll live
anywho, that's a pretty impressive feat actually, and i'm assuming these feats are cannon to the mainstream/continuity? also what title and issue is this from? if you don't mind telling

also supes was aided, he needed to know the exact frequency in order to perform that feat something that most likely won't be available for this battle

also i meant "time bubble instead" instead of "time bible" the f*ck? smh
typos are killing the game tonight ridiculously

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
guy,i forgot to insert the periods, you'll live
anywho, that's a pretty impressive feat actually, and i'm assuming these feats are cannon to the mainstream/continuity? also what title and issue is this from? if you don't mind telling

also supes was aided, he needed to know the exact frequency in order to perform that feat something that most likely won't be available for this battle
Yeah, I'll live. Thank you very much. Adventures of Superman 617 and its perfectly canon. At that time he needed to but later he could know the vibrational frequency of anything with a glance, that's how he sang darkseid out of existance.

Originally posted by Falcon Man
No, Nate does reality warping quite a bit; even in the early issues of X-Man he did things like accidentally making Maddie's thoughts real through the use of his psionics. It's a part of his power-set. Planck length has been described as stepping outside of time. There's a good chance it can counter time-stops.

Also, I'm not saying Nate and Vulcan beat them in destructive power. Rather, through ring-out or telepathy. Through their exotic abilities.

Also, Nate does in fact have a multiversal telepathy feat where he linked someone's mind with their alternate selves. Here it is.

Taken from X-Man #74

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7843/93425381.jpg
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1976/54976389.jpg
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/5890/93734055.jpg

Shaman Nate is definitely above Xavier and Martian Manhunter in the mind game.



Um, how? Care showing me a feat where Superman killed an incorporeal/insubstantial being? If you do then I'm perfectly fine with conceding.
That's not reality warping. That's pulling things out of astral plane, impressive but not the same. Planck length is the shortest length of time and its not stepping out of time. Now that's impressive but I'm not sure what makes that more impressive than people who mindrape martian manhunter and fails at doing that to superman (Despero, Hector Hammond).

He nearly killed hank henshaw who is just like nate a disembodied energy at this point inside a cyborg body. Nate still had a body and is still prone to get knocked out IIRC. He also koed lightning lord of LOSV who is just pure lightning in his powered form.

As for telepathy superman has feats like these

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/INSANE%20FEATS/RESIST%20MIND%20CONTROL%20THAT%20NO%20ONE%20CANT/th_AOS623VSPSI.jpg http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/INSANE%20FEATS/RESIST%20MIND%20CONTROL%20THAT%20NO%20ONE%20CANT/th_AOS623VSPSI2.jpg

lol ..multiversal telepathy ..

In range at least.

In potency Nate's telepathy is above Xavier's.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's not reality warping. That's pulling things out of astral plane, impressive but not the same. Planck length is the shortest length of time and its not stepping out of time. Now that's impressive but I'm not sure what makes that more impressive than people who mindrape martian manhunter and fails at doing that to superman (Despero, Hector Hammond).

He nearly killed hank henshaw who is just like nate a disembodied energy at this point inside a cyborg body. Nate still had a body and is still prone to get knocked out IIRC. He also koed lightning lord of LOSV who is just pure lightning in his powered form.

Alright, I would still like to see those scans though. Also, technically Nate's body would be incorporeal and ghost like--astral body thing--whatever you want to call it (in other words not made of energy) but I wouldn't be surprised if Superman has punched ghosts before or other abstract/magical beings.

Also, looking at that resistance feat I can see telepathy being ineffective on Superman.

There's still the option of cross-universal ring out by Nate. Since I haven't seen any universal crossing for Superman. Though, if he beats Nate before he can do it, it would be a moot point.

Also, the planck is stepping out of time.

Taken from Dark X-Men #3

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1583/darkxmen003014.jpg
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2325/darkxmen003015.jpg
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/3186/darkxmen003016.jpg
http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/8082/darkxmen003017.jpg

In the third part, it's explicitly stated: "The combat takes place out of time. In the 'planck length' between moments."

Originally posted by Falcon Man
In range at least.

In potency Nate's telepathy is above Xavier's.



Alright, I would still like to see those scans though. Also, technically Nate's body would be incorporeal and ghost like--astral body thing--whatever you want to call it (in other words not made of energy) but I wouldn't be surprised if Superman has punched ghosts before or other abstract/magical beings.

Also, looking at that resistance feat I can see telepathy being ineffective on Superman.

There's still the option of cross-universal ring out by Nate. Since I haven't seen any universal crossing for Superman. Though, if he beats Nate before he can do it, it would be a moot point.

Also, the planck is stepping out of time.

Taken from Dark X-Men #3

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1583/darkxmen003014.jpg
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2325/darkxmen003015.jpg
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/3186/darkxmen003016.jpg
http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/8082/darkxmen003017.jpg

In the third part, it's explicitly stated: "The combat takes place out of time. In the 'planck length' between moments."
I direct you to planet-dimension feat posted above. He's also escaped an alternate dimension in MOS 90 which I can't post atm. Believe it or not, he's done those before. Check this out
Originally posted by abhilegend
Inorite?
http://s1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/?action=view&current=NanosecondInteraction1.jpg
http://s1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/?action=view&current=NanosecondInteraction2.jpg
Before you say anything, that's post crisis not pre crisis.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I direct you to planet-dimension feat posted above. He's also escaped an alternate dimension in MOS 90 which I can't post atm. Believe it or not, he's done those before. Check this out

Before you say anything, that's post crisis not pre crisis.

Alright, that shows he's immune to time dilation but that's not what entering the 'planck length' does. The one it effects are Nate and anyone that he drags with him, inadvertently giving them a sort temporal speed boost.

The planet-dimension feat shows Superman exorcising a phantom parallel earth via super-fast specific frequency vibrations, to keep it from colliding with his earth. It doesn't show him traveling between realities, time-lines or universes.

I would like to also mention that Nate fought the Hulk before, so knocking him out won't be easy.

Taken from X-Man Annual 1998

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6823/xmanannual1998page23ima.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2643/xmanannual1998page24ima.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7408/xmanannual1998page25ima.jpg
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/1862/xmanannual1998page26ima.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1466/xmanannual1998page27ima.jpg
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/2697/xmanannual1998page28ima.jpg

He also has Vulcan for back up. That shouldn't be dismissed.

Originally posted by Falcon Man
Alright, that shows he's immune to time dilation but that's not what entering the 'planck length' does. The one it effects are Nate and anyone that he drags with him, inadvertently giving them a sort temporal speed boost.

The planet-dimension feat shows Superman exorcising a phantom parallel earth via super-fast specific frequency vibrations, to keep it from colliding with his earth. It doesn't show him traveling between realities, time-lines or universes.

I would like to also mention that Nate fought the Hulk before, so knocking him out won't be easy.

Taken from X-Man Annual 1998

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6823/xmanannual1998page23ima.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2643/xmanannual1998page24ima.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7408/xmanannual1998page25ima.jpg
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/1862/xmanannual1998page26ima.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1466/xmanannual1998page27ima.jpg
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/2697/xmanannual1998page28ima.jpg

He also has Vulcan for back up. That shouldn't be dismissed.
That isn't time dilation. That is total time stop. He sent a whole planet to another dimension from this dimension, you think he can't displace himself from another dimension using the same tactic.

Nobody said this is an easy fight. Superman beats nate however and hal beats vulcan.

Originally posted by abhilegend That isn't time dilation. That is total time stop.

Okay, but once again, that's not what entering the planck length does. The only people it effects are those who enter it. Think it of as really advanced teleportation, if you want, but it's not just a simple time-stop.

Otherwise, Ares wouldn't have been able to chase in after Mimic and Nate because he would have been frozen in time.



He might, but that all depends on if he actually has used that method to do that. You also notice how he needed someone to tell him the correct frequency? How is he going to know what the correct frequency for the universe where this fight is happening is if no one tells him?

Otherwise, he would just wind up in some random alternate world if he tried that.



That's debatable. Both Teams have a good shot of taking the other out.

Originally posted by Falcon Man
Okay, but once again, that's not what entering the planck length does. The only people it effects are those who enter it. Think it of as really advanced teleportation, if you want, but it's not just a simple time-stop.

Otherwise, Ares wouldn't have been able to chase in after Mimic and Nate because he would have been frozen in time.



He might, but that all depends on if he actually has used that method to do that. You also notice how he needed someone to tell him the correct frequency? How is he going to know what the correct frequency for the universe where this fight is happening is if no one tells him?

Otherwise, he would just wind up in some random alternate world if he tried that.



That's debatable. Both Teams have a good shot of taking the other out.
Planck length is the smallest length of time possible, time stop is time totally stopped. The later is superior to former.

At the time he couldn't but after Infinite crisis he could know the vibrational frequency of anything with just a glance. That's how he sang darkseid out of the existance.

Ok. Different opinions and all that.

Regarding the BFR thing, Green Lanterns can open portals to and travel between other universes and dimensions, so if Superman gets BFR'd Hal could bring him back.

How will have have the time to do that with Vulcan controlling/draining his energy. Vulcan is the worst enemy for a Lantern.

A normal Lantern, perhaps.

A human-named Lantern? Not so much.

Hal dealt with people draining him before

Ugh, I hate this.

Vulcan is turning in to forum Surfer now...

also regarding the ares incident with nate, the only reason he was capable fo following nate was due to his godly nature grants him special instances " war simultanously exist on all planes" also the comic defined it as stepping OUTSIDE of time, as you can see, Nate was operating from outside of time, way more than a mere "time stop"

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Regarding the BFR thing, Green Lanterns can open portals to and travel between other universes and dimensions, so if Superman gets BFR'd Hal could bring him back.

I see. Well, then that takes away Nate's BFR as an option.

Also, just checked the OP again. It specifies no BFR either way. I feel kind of silly.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Regarding the BFR thing, Green Lanterns can open portals to and travel between other universes and dimensions, so if Superman gets BFR'd Hal could bring him back. Not really. Not anymore. They can travel back and forth between the anti-matter universe. That's about it. Originally posted by -Pr-
Ugh, I hate this.

Vulcan is turning in to forum Surfer now... Vulcan is a proven energy stealer, absorber and manipulator. It's strictly how he fights (other than wielding a rather esoteric form of telepathy).

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
also regarding the ares incident with nate, the only reason he was capable fo following nate was due to his godly nature grants him special instances " war simultanously exist on all planes" also the comic defined it as stepping OUTSIDE of time, as you can see, Nate was operating from outside of time, way more than a mere "time stop"
Why are you bolding all your posts?

Originally posted by ODG
Not really. Not anymore. They can travel back and forth between the anti-matter universe. That's about it. Vulcan is a proven energy stealer, absorber and manipulator. It's strictly how he fights (other than wielding a rather esoteric form of telepathy).

I know how he fights. People are just pushing it to extremes.

X-Man ends the fight by displacing both Superman, and Hal in alternate reality.

It seriously ends that easily.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I know how he fights. People are just pushing it to extremes.

Vulcan vs Hal is a competitive fight. As competitive as Vulcan vs Black Bolt or Sinestro vs Hal.

The momentum shifts, when Vulcan tunes into Hals Willpower energy spectrum. Or if Hal works himself up to land something close to a Korona killing blast. Otherwise we expect the former, its the nature of Vulcan's power, and his methods.

Originally posted by "Id"
X-Man ends the fight by displacing both Superman, and Hal in alternate reality.

It seriously ends that easily.
Superman returns them to the battle field



http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/256/ccf1226201000013.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/ccf1226201000014.jpg/

There is no BFR, you onion-head bastards.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman returns them to the battle field



http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/256/ccf1226201000013.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/ccf1226201000014.jpg/
Scan fails to prove anything.

If Superman had the capacity to do so. He would have sent majestic to his own verse.

Originally posted by armedforbattle
There is no BFR, you onion-head bastards.

Originally posted by armedforbattle
There is no BFR, you onion-head bastards.

My mistake.


X-Man freezes the vicinity in a spacial lock.

Originally posted by "Id"
Scan fails to prove anything.

If Superman had the capacity to do so. He would have sent majestic to his own verse.
It clearly shows superman crossing dimensions using his speed.

That was only possible with a portal in bleed, also writers don't write characters as we might expect.

Originally posted by "Id"
My mistake.


X-Man freezes the vicinity in a spacial lock.
Hal unlocks it.
Hal stops time./thread

Originally posted by -Pr-
I know how he fights. People are just pushing it to extremes. As far as I've seen, people have suggested that Vulcan will drain his foe(s), or turn their power against them. This is something he does consistently, despite the power his foe wields, despite the numbers he faces. There's nothing extreme about that. Originally posted by "Id"
Vulcan vs Hal is a competitive fight. As competitive as Vulcan vs Black Bolt or Sinestro vs Hal.

The momentum shifts, when Vulcan tunes into Hals Willpower energy spectrum. Or if Hal works himself up to land something close to a Korona killing blast. Otherwise we expect the former, its the nature of Vulcan's power, and his methods. This.

Context be damned, the scan is completely ambiguous. Do you have a source of the scan?

Abhi I have followed GL history extensively, and I've never seen Hal work his way out of a spacial lock. Your not back to crying wolf again, are ya?

Originally posted by "Id"
Context be damned, the scan is completely ambiguous. Do you have a source of the scan?

Abhi I have followed GL history extensively, and I've never seen Hal work his way out of a spacial lock. Your not back to crying wolf again, are ya?
It has no context. Its from Superman:Man Of Steel 90.

I was joking with "unlocking". Although superman would just punch through it.

Originally posted by "Id"
My mistake.


X-Man freezes the vicinity in a spacial lock.
Wasn't directed at anybody.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Why are you bolding all your posts?
i always bold my post, rather a habit i've continued throughout my years, visual custom

also, i'm not the only one that does this...

Superman can probably take out either Nate Grey or Vulcan (you pick or choose). Green Lantern could fight pretty close to either Nate or Vulcan, and with Superman as backup, they'd win.

Originally posted by ODG
As far as I've seen, people have suggested that Vulcan will drain his foe(s), or turn their power against them. This is something he does consistently, despite the power his foe wields, despite the numbers he faces. There's nothing extreme about that. This.

And yet he's lost against almost all of the top heralds he's gone up against.

People saying he'd suck out Superman's solar energy or manipulate Hal's ring (when he's shown a direct ability to counteract that), honestly don't strike me as being too well up on all the characters.

Originally posted by "Id"
Vulcan vs Hal is a competitive fight. As competitive as Vulcan vs Black Bolt or Sinestro vs Hal.

The momentum shifts, when Vulcan tunes into Hals Willpower energy spectrum. Or if Hal works himself up to land something close to a Korona killing blast. Otherwise we expect the former, its the nature of Vulcan's power, and his methods.

Agreed with this.

Vulcan can also seriously f*ck Superman's day up with his energy absorption. The way Clark metabolizes energy and his power source being ambient yellow Solar Radiation is like christmas to Vulcan.

Superman is awesome though and Vulcan could suck sometimes so I'm still split on them.

Vulcan is underestimated.

Originally posted by carver9
Vulcan is underestimated.

Or overestimated.

If Manhunters can drain the rings then sure can Gabriel as well.

Originally posted by -Pr-
And yet he's lost against almost all of the top heralds he's gone up against.

People saying he'd suck out Superman's solar energy or manipulate Hal's ring (when he's shown a direct ability to counteract that), honestly don't strike me as being too well up on all the characters. Gladiator? Not a character that has been in any way susceptible to energy draining in his career. Whereas Hal and Superman have.

Black Bolt? A more than competent energy manipulator in his own right and only when he unleashed his greatest attack: a full scream. I agree that when a herald uses their greatest most desperate ultimate attack, they can just barely beat Vulcan. And btw Vulcan was absorbing energy in that fight which is why Black Bolt was forced down that route.

Adam Warlock? He was wrecked and got his magic drained utterly. Not even someone who you'd even think would be susceptible to energy draining and had the ability to pull plot device powers out of his butt.

Sundipped Havok? Not a surprise he defeated him, Alex was already inherently capable of absorbing Vulcan's power when at normal power levels -- a trait not possessed by Hal or Superman.

Vulcan may not be the most preeminent or competent energy manipulator in comics, but that is specifically his powerset and he's been shown to be particularly dangerous with it. You certainly can't be suggesting that he wouldn't resort to it, when he does so in pretty much every single fight he's ever been in. But I don't know why you're suggesting he wouldn't be dangerous because of it, because he is. And lesser energy manipulators whose entire career doesn't revolve around energy manipulation have done worse to Superman and Hal.

Originally posted by ODG
Gladiator? Not a character that has been in any way susceptible to energy draining in his career. Whereas Hal and Superman have.

Black Bolt? A more than competent energy manipulator in his own right and only when he unleashed his greatest attack: a full scream. I agree that when a herald uses their greatest most desperate ultimate attack, they can just barely beat Vulcan. And btw Vulcan was absorbing energy in that fight which is why Black Bolt was forced down that route.

Adam Warlock? He was wrecked and got his magic drained utterly. Not even someone who you'd even think would be susceptible to energy draining and had the ability to pull plot device powers out of his butt.

Sundipped Havok? Not a surprise he defeated him, Alex was already inherently capable of absorbing Vulcan's power when at normal power levels -- a trait not possessed by Hal or Superman.

Vulcan may not be the most preeminent or competent energy manipulator in comics, but that is specifically his powerset and he's been shown to be particularly dangerous with it. You certainly can't be suggesting that he wouldn't resort to it, when he does so in pretty much every single fight he's ever been in. But I don't know why you're suggesting he wouldn't be dangerous because of it, because he is. And lesser energy manipulators whose entire career doesn't revolve around energy manipulation have done worse to Superman and Hal.

I never said he wouldn't be dangerous. Just that his powerset doesn't make it an auto-win for him, is all.

Let's not forget Superman's speed, freeze breath, and hv. That combination is nothing to mess with. And let's not forget about his speed.

Yea Vulcan could apply a Solar Drainn on Supes or Nate could drain him of his mental energy. Leaving him with no mental faculties.

Supes is resistant to mind attacks, also Superman isn't going to just sit there and let someone drain him. Vulcun would be close to a statue if Superman decided to use his speed.