Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who from the Movies can Darth Vader (Peak Suit) defeat? Who would defeat him? I am not getting involved because I am genuinely curious as to who people think Vader is stronger than. Let the game begin!

People who would beat him:

Yoda
Sidious
Mace
Dooku
ROTS Anakin

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
People who would beat him:

Yoda
Sidious
Mace
Dooku
ROTS Anakin
And who would he defeat?

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
And who would he defeat?

Dooku and RotS Anakin.

Originally posted by ares834
Dooku and RotS Anakin.

I disagree. I think that Dooku's footwork and force mastery would give him the tools necessary to defeat Vader. And ROTS Anakin is presumably stronger and faster than Peak Vader.

He'd beat any member of the council not in the above list. He'd beat Maul. He'd beat Qui-Gon.



More reckless and less experienced, with the force or in general.

Also, in terms of strength, there *is* all those cyborg parts.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I disagree. I think that Dooku's footwork and force mastery would give him the tools necessary to defeat Vader. And ROTS Anakin is presumably stronger and faster than Peak Vader. ROTS Anakin's mechanical forearm was demonstratively physically superior to his fleshy one.

So... No on physical strength, lol.

Originally posted by NemeBro
ROTS Anakin's mechanical forearm was demonstratively physically superior to his fleshy one.

So... No on physical strength, lol.

He didn't say "physical" strength. He just said he's stronger and faster.

The CW shows he can also tank force TK attacks pretty damn well.

Although I guess it's still plausible that Vader could Force Choke or Levitate him, but I'd give the majority to ROTS Anakin personally.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
And who would he defeat?

Everyone else.

Saying who he can't defeat is much smaller and easier to list.

Indeed Vader became slower. But he adjusted his style to mitigate that weakness.
Specifically one-handed style allows to swing lightsaber around without doing a lot of body movements. So imho without his former speed he still can attack and defend as fast with Makashi. And because of his much greater strength he never lacks kinetic energy like other Makashi practitioners.

Yoda
Anakin
Kenobi

Yoda is too fast, so he will just tire him up.

RotS Anakin can counter his strength, so either he wins or tire him up like Yoda.

And Kenobi with his defensive style can defend until Vader gets exhausted

TBH, Kenobi doesn't stand a chance against Vader's force powers.

Anyway, the only way I see RotS Anakin taking down Vader is if he is in the z0ne.

Originally posted by ares834

Anyway, the only way I see RotS Anakin taking down Vader is if he is in the z0ne.

He should be able to hold his own against him either way imo, seen as how CW Anakin consistently stalemates Count Dooku I wouldn't really expect Vader to do better against ROTS Anakin.

Vader knows his own old weaknesses, and has a lot more strength than Dooku.

---
Pretty much it is- Top three, win.
Dooku and young Annie, debatable. I say Vader wins.
Everyone else, lose. With only a few like Obi-Wan able to put up a fight.

Originally posted by Q99
Vader knows his own old weaknesses,

Well.. We we were kind of intentionally ignoring that. Because we just wanted to compare their powers and abilities. Well that's how I was looking at it anyway.

Originally posted by Q99
and has a lot more strength than Dooku.



Well that is Vader's only real advantage over Dooku in Sabers. I'm sure Dooku is faster and more mobile.

And still I wouldn't underestimate Dooku's Force enhanced strength. He parried the combined might of Kenobi and Skywalker with one hand, and later kicked Skywalker pretty damn far slamming against the wall.

Originally posted by ares834
TBH, Kenobi doesn't stand a chance against Vader's force powers.

Anyway, the only way I see RotS Anakin taking down Vader is if he is in the z0ne.

True.

As for Anakin he seems to be in the "zone" every time Kenobi is not around.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
And who would he defeat?

I suppose every other force user..

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Well that is Vader's only real advantage over Dooku in Sabers. I'm sure Dooku is faster and more mobile.

Dooku's somewhat old, and Vader faced Luke, who's going to be faster and more mobile than that.

Originally posted by Q99
Dooku's somewhat old, and Vader faced Luke, who's going to be faster and more mobile than that.

Luke was a novice. Galen Marek would be the better example to use.

And I'd say Dooku is a more skilled fencer than him, and probably by fair margin.

And I don't think there's any evidence that either novice Luke or Galen Marek were faster or more mobile than Count Dooku. After all he had the speed and mobility to go toe to toe with Yoda.

In real life you can master fencing in less than one year, if you drill it and compete everyday. Fencing is a simple art. Marek was drilling his combat skills for many years from childhood just like Maul. I doubt that Dooku would be better by any margin, unless he is naturally more tallented in fencing.




I don't think there is such thing as speed difference between characters.

Anakin was far more powerful than Dooku and Kenobi, yet, they still fought at equal speed. Sidious was more powerful than Maul, Opress and Windu, yet, he couldn't blitz them.

Superior power gives better anticipation and strength but the movement speed depends on natural body capabilities. Blaster bolts are much faster than any lightsaber attacks, yet, Luke could deflect bolts of teaching droid on his first session, it's all about anticipation, not speed.

Kenobi grappled with Jango Fett, yet, he did not demonstrate any superior speed.

Even Luke in state of Oneness couldn't blitz non-sensitive Slayers and was outskilling them instead.

Yoda is the fastest not because of superior power but his size. But at the same time his attacks are weak and have small reach, that's why he couldn't defeat Dooku.

Indeed, Vader is slow, he can't dodge attacks effectively as his body doesn't bend well and for the same reason he can't move around fast. However, his hands at shoulder level are made of flash, so he still can swing lightsaber as fast as prior to suit. He lacks mobility, not speed.
Because he can't dodge well, he has to block all attacks. However, his strength not only gives him offensive power, it, also, makes his defences much better. Superior strength allows to block and resist attacks effortlessly making it much harder to outskill him.

Yoda compensates his limitations with speed as he demonstrated against Dooku and Sidious. Similarly Vader compensates his limitations with strength as he demonstrated against Marek and his clone. It's unfair to praise one character with limitations and at the same time lowball another.

Originally posted by Arhael
In real life you can master fencing in less than one year, if you drill it and compete everyday. Fencing is a simple art. Marek was drilling his combat skills for many years from childhood just like Maul. I doubt that Dooku would be better by any margin, unless he is naturally more tallented in fencing.

But it's clearly more complex than that in SW, otherwise Kenobi being "The Master" of Soresu wouldn't really mean much.

I put Dooku's skill above Marek's for being the best practitioner of his chosen form (a pure fencing form at that).

Whilst Marek isn't said to have completely mastered his chosen form anywhere. In fact he's only referred to being even A Master of Juyo in a future vision that never came to be.

So for that reason in terms of skill I would Kenobi, Dooku and Windu all above Marek.

As for Marek and Maul, perhaps Maul's training focused more on Saber skills and Marek's more on wielding incredible Force powers. Maul is also from a warrior born race so he may have been more talented in that regard.

Either way they had different teachers, different training regimes and both had different natural talents so it's hard to compare. But we can't just say they both trained hardcore for 10+ years so should both be just as skilled.


Originally posted by Arhael
Yoda compensates his limitations with speed as he demonstrated against Dooku and Sidious. Similarly Vader compensates his limitations with strength as he demonstrated against Marek and his clone. It's unfair to praise one character with limitations and at the same time lowball another.

Still even in terms of strength I really don't see Vader giving Dooku more trouble than angry CW Anakin, who Dooku was fending off very nicely but was put down by a kick.

Also remember Old Ben was able to hold off (even match) Vader's strength, so again I have a hard time believing it's going to cause Dooku significantly more stress.

However I personally do see Dooku's mobility causing Vader trouble.

Book doesn't really say about what he mastered or didn't. However, each of his performances shows that he analyses a lot during combat, recognizes styles of others and ALWAYS finds a way to outskill each of his opponents.
For example, here he demonstrates his mastery of Makashi:
"his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision".

Here it shows that he fights flawlessly: "Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.

The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits."

The way his combat is portrayed, I don't see any room for improvement at all.

"The Master" indeed doesn't mean much. Cin Dralic mastered all the Forms, yet, he didn't have the skill to apply them effectively during real combat. In book alone Marek trained combat a lot, fought other Force users and it says that he dueled Vader many times before. In fight with Vader he didn't display any signs of weakness, lack of skill or any mistakes that would allow Vader to take advantage. On opposite Marek constantly analized situation and surroundings, which shows that he is well trained and experienced combatant, as I said his performance is flawless.


True. I think we are on different wave. For me skill is mastery of techniques and how to utilize them effectively. The rest is determined as you said by natural talents.
Because of greater power Marek's saber prowess is above either Maul and Dooku. However, it still doesn't mean that he would outskill either of them. Anakin learned everything Kenobi knew, sparred with him 1000s hours and mastered his own style. Yet, both Kenobi and Dooku could keep up with him by fighting defensively.
Fights involve far more things than just saber skill. Surroundings, positional advantage, style specifics, offensive Force use, unarmed combat skills, stamina, various circumstances and state of mind.
Qui-Gon lost to Maul because he got tired and confined space prevented him from using main advantage of his style.
Dooku outskilled Kenobi because his superior power allowed him to win saber lock contest.
Kenobi could fight both Maul and Opress because Jarkai is the best option against multiple opponents and he is good at kicking.
Dooku defeated so many characters just by Force handling them.
Anakin defeated Dooku with grappling technique.
According to RotS novel Sidious had fear of falling out of window and redirected part of his power to root himself in place, which allowed Windu to win, in film Windu won by kick.
Kenobi defeated Anakin because of positional advantage.
Marek and Vader fought evenly, however, Marek won psychological battle, he affected Vader's performance with Dun Moch and on top of that got enraged, which allowed him to overpower Vader.

In nearly every case outcome depends on something other than saber skill, if both opponents are properly trained and experienced. So I hope you now see why I give so little weight to pure fencing skill as it is easy to master and is rarely a deciding factor.



8kpHK4YIwY4
0:40-0:46 and 1:25-1:27 seems like Vader overpowers Kenobi in saber lock. Interesting observation is that Kenobi is actually on offensive most of the fight, while Vader mostly parries and dodges attacks and only by the end starts driving Kenobi back but sill nowhere near as aggressively as in RotS. Seems like Vader is showing off how he improved without trying hard. But to be honest at that point SW lacked styles and combat evolved since. We can't really speculate on that.


Elaborate, please.

Anakin didn't rely on mobility at all, his style lacked it. In CW and RotS Anakin didn't dodge a single attack and blocked everything instead. All he did is slowly walked towards Dooku, while all Dooku could do is move backwards and put entire effort into defence and dodging. Just wondering, if Dooku's better mobility didn't give him advantage against Anakin, how will it give against Vader?

Mind you, it was still a choreographed fight with intent on who's doing what involved. It doesn't have the modern SW styles, but it very much has fighting styles.

Originally posted by Arhael
Book doesn't really say about what he mastered or didn't. However, each of his performances shows that he analyses a lot during combat, recognizes styles of others and ALWAYS finds a way to outskill each of his opponents.
For example, here he demonstrates his mastery of Makashi:
"his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision".

He's definitely well versed in multiple forms. He's proven that. My point is that unlike Kenobi, Dooku, Skywalker or Windu, he's not been noted to be particularly exceptional in any of the forms as far as I recall.

Originally posted by Arhael
Here it shows that he fights flawlessly: "Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.

The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits."

The way his combat is portrayed, I don't see any room for improvement at all.

Imho considering how powerful he is, Vader really shouldn't be that difficult a Saber fight for him. He should easily be Mace Windu level in Sabers IF he had Mastered Juyo, considering the amount of Force Power at his disposal.

In TFUII he couldn't actually overpower Vader in Sabers. The reason given in the novel was that Vader was ready for him this time.

Then there's the dark side ending of TFUI where Sidious beats him in Sabers with ridiculous ease. I know it's not canon, but the dark side ending was coming to him in the novel as possible futures according to the choices he made.

Mastery of fencing in SW may be to do with how well an individual is applying the Force to use those fencing techniques.

Originally posted by Arhael
"The Master" indeed doesn't mean much. Cin Dralic mastered all the Forms, yet, he didn't have the skill to apply them effectively during real combat.

Getting tooled by Anakin isn't exactly a bad thing. Considering Anakin was as skilled as Kenobi but a lot stronger.





Originally posted by Arhael
In nearly every case outcome depends on something other than saber skill, if both opponents are properly trained and experienced. So I hope you now see why I give so little weight to pure fencing skill as it is easy to master and is rarely a deciding factor.

Kicks and close combat skills are definitely a big factor in Saber fights. As is their power in the Force (obviously).

I just think for someone as powerful as Marek to constantly struggle against noteworthy opponents in Sabers, something's obviously still lacking.

Let's not forget Shaak Ti actually beat (or at least stalemated) Glen in Sabers. He had to use his exceptional Force TK powers to stop her killing him.

I know he became more powerful since, but why does he need to be so Uber Powerful to beat Shaak Ti in a Saber match?? So like I said, to me it seems as though something is lacking there in his skills.




Originally posted by Arhael
0:40-0:46 and 1:25-1:27 seems like Vader overpowers Kenobi in saber lock. Interesting observation is that Kenobi is actually on offensive most of the fight, while Vader mostly parries and dodges attacks and only by the end starts driving Kenobi back but sill nowhere near as aggressively as in RotS. Seems like Vader is showing off how he improved without trying hard. But to be honest at that point SW lacked styles and combat evolved since. We can't really speculate on that.

I know if it was choreographed today it would be dome better, but Lucas in the audio commentary seems to basically say "It's canon. Except it.." LOL.

Vader wasn't Forcing him backwards anywhere near as much as ROTS Anakin was. And tbh Vader didn't seem superior. He still couldn't get past Obi-Wan's defenses until Obi-Wan let him. He wasn't getting in kicks or choking him like ROTS Anakin was. Heck who knows, if the fight had continued Obi-Wan might have still won!


Originally posted by Arhael
Elaborate, please.

Anakin didn't rely on mobility at all, his style lacked it. In CW and RotS Anakin didn't dodge a single attack and blocked everything instead. All he did is slowly walked towards Dooku, while all Dooku could do is move backwards and put entire effort into defence and dodging. Just wondering, if Dooku's better mobility didn't give him advantage against Anakin, how will it give against Vader?

Yes I think a prime example of Dooku's great mobility is how he kicked Anakin from behind while concentrating on Obi-Wan. And it was one Uber kick as well.

And I personally think ROTS Anakin is a more dangerous combatant than Vader (in Sabers at least).

IIRC GL stated thatt Vader wasn't his old self in saber combat. Don't have the exact quote though.

Originally posted by Arhael
Book doesn't really say about what he mastered or didn't. However, each of his performances shows that he analyses a lot during combat, recognizes styles of others and ALWAYS finds a way to outskill each of his opponents.
For example, here he demonstrates his mastery of Makashi:
"his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision".

Here it shows that he fights flawlessly: "Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.

The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits."

The way his combat is portrayed, I don't see any room for improvement at all.

"The Master" indeed doesn't mean much. Cin Dralic mastered all the Forms, yet, he didn't have the skill to apply them effectively during real combat. In book alone Marek trained combat a lot, fought other Force users and it says that he dueled Vader many times before. In fight with Vader he didn't display any signs of weakness, lack of skill or any mistakes that would allow Vader to take advantage. On opposite Marek constantly analized situation and surroundings, which shows that he is well trained and experienced combatant, as I said his performance is flawless.


True. I think we are on different wave. For me skill is mastery of techniques and how to utilize them effectively. The rest is determined as you said by natural talents.
Because of greater power Marek's saber prowess is above either Maul and Dooku. However, it still doesn't mean that he would outskill either of them. Anakin learned everything Kenobi knew, sparred with him 1000s hours and mastered his own style. Yet, both Kenobi and Dooku could keep up with him by fighting defensively.
Fights involve far more things than just saber skill. Surroundings, positional advantage, style specifics, offensive Force use, unarmed combat skills, stamina, various circumstances and state of mind.
Qui-Gon lost to Maul because he got tired and confined space prevented him from using main advantage of his style.
Dooku outskilled Kenobi because his superior power allowed him to win saber lock contest.
Kenobi could fight both Maul and Opress because Jarkai is the best option against multiple opponents and he is good at kicking.
Dooku defeated so many characters just by Force handling them.
Anakin defeated Dooku with grappling technique.
According to RotS novel Sidious had fear of falling out of window and redirected part of his power to root himself in place, which allowed Windu to win, in film Windu won by kick.
Kenobi defeated Anakin because of positional advantage.
Marek and Vader fought evenly, however, Marek won psychological battle, he affected Vader's performance with Dun Moch and on top of that got enraged, which allowed him to overpower Vader.

In nearly every case outcome depends on something other than saber skill, if both opponents are properly trained and experienced. So I hope you now see why I give so little weight to pure fencing skill as it is easy to master and is rarely a deciding factor.



8kpHK4YIwY4
0:40-0:46 and 1:25-1:27 seems like Vader overpowers Kenobi in saber lock. Interesting observation is that Kenobi is actually on offensive most of the fight, while Vader mostly parries and dodges attacks and only by the end starts driving Kenobi back but sill nowhere near as aggressively as in RotS. Seems like Vader is showing off how he improved without trying hard. But to be honest at that point SW lacked styles and combat evolved since. We can't really speculate on that.


Elaborate, please.

Anakin didn't rely on mobility at all, his style lacked it. In CW and RotS Anakin didn't dodge a single attack and blocked everything instead. All he did is slowly walked towards Dooku, while all Dooku could do is move backwards and put entire effort into defence and dodging. Just wondering, if Dooku's better mobility didn't give him advantage against Anakin, how will it give against Vader?
Vader is even more physically strong than Anakin was. Dooku's Makashi would have even more difficulty against Vader.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
IIRC GL stated thatt Vader wasn't his old self in saber combat. Don't have the exact quote though.

He definitely said he wasn't as agile, but that's just part of sabers.

But who would point it out? Jedi inspire each other, Windu and Yoda praised Kenobi, while Vader ordered Marek around and threatened.



Vader shouldn't be difficult?
I will point out that Vader is still chosen one and still has the same midichlorian count despite his injuries and bad health in general, also, his suit was enhanced with Sith alchemy.

Yoda was very old and his body was very weak, he couldn't even walk properly. He couldn't give strong attacks because of his very small weight as well as lack of physical strength. Because of small height he had to jump every time he attacked. His hands were much shorter and even his lightsaber was short reach. Speed is the only Yoda's advantage.
Yet, you praise Dooku for going toe to toe with Yoda, while lowball Marek for going toe to toe with Vader saying that strength is the only Vader's advantage". That's exact double standard that Forced me to argue here.

There was no duel in darkside ending. Palpatine blocked a single attack and struck him down with lightning. I have three possible explanations to that. First is that he was tired, in lightside version only desire to save Kota and rebels gave him strength to resist lightning.
Another is that Marek was empowered by hatered towards Vader. With Vader's death emotion that empowered him was gone.
Also, Palpatine mind dominated him, only in lightside version Marek resisted his influence with help of Bail Organa, same way Palpatine tooled darkside Luke.


Indeed, canonically Anakin was twice more powerful than even Sidious.
However, we are not discussing TOR, where Exile+Scourge<<<<Nyriss<<<<<<<<<<Revan<<<<Vitiate.
As I said superior power doesn't make them much faster. Even powerful Jedi can be outskilled by a Manalorian, assassin or Yuzhan Vong. Cin Dralic had complete fencing mastery, yet, he didn't have real combat experience of fighting real Sith like Kenobi.


Kota was looking for a fight with Vader himself and was dissapointed, when Marek came instead. If he was such a weak opponent, where would that confidence come from? Moreover, apart from resisting Marek's TK(his strongest advantage) he deflected his lightning with bare hand. Do you recall anyone else apart from Yoda and Dooku doing it?

Shaak Ti weak?
How many Jedi gave explosion on death? None. It implies that she did have some insane power in her, likely above even Marek because of attunment with surrounding nature. And who said that she is weak with lightsaber? Also, imho her agility and Ataru allowed her to fight better on sarlacc with uneven and "treacherous" surface. In any case even Vader said that Marek would need full power of the darkside to defeat her.

If characters are mostly unknown, why there is need to assume they are weak? Windu struggled against unknown characters in other books. Even FotJ Luke struggled with a lot of random Force users.


True. But does it really look like Vader tried to overwhelm Kenobi like in RotS? Vader didn't need to rush to kill Kenobi, he demonstrated that he is master of his emotions, not other way around like before.
As I said Kenobi was attacking most of the time, while Vader kept talking instead to show off.

And Anakin at that point was restraining himself in presence of Kenobi. In 1x1 Dooku didn't land a single kick on Anakin even in CW. Still I accept that Dooku might kick Vader but would it affect him much? Vader tanked even Marek's Force blast compared to "force of small explosion".


I know. I meant SW styles. Specifically that Kenobi fought offensively but in newer films he adopted defensive style.

Anakin used the Djem So form which would be difficult to use in a suit due to the requirement of strength and free mobility. As Marek demonstrated, there is more to fighting than using lightsaber combat. Like Vader, he used TK often

Originally posted by Arhael
But who would point it out? Jedi inspire each other, Windu and Yoda praised Kenobi, while Vader ordered Marek around and threatened.



Vader shouldn't be difficult?
I will point out that Vader is still chosen one and still has the same midichlorian count despite his injuries and bad health in general, also, his suit was enhanced with Sith alchemy.

Yoda was very old and his body was very weak, he couldn't even walk properly. He couldn't give strong attacks because of his very small weight as well as lack of physical strength. Because of small height he had to jump every time he attacked. His hands were much shorter and even his lightsaber was short reach. Speed is the only Yoda's advantage.
Yet, you praise Dooku for going toe to toe with Yoda, while lowball Marek for going toe to toe with Vader saying that strength is the only Vader's advantage". That's exact double standard that Forced me to argue here.

There was no duel in darkside ending. Palpatine blocked a single attack and struck him down with lightning. I have three possible explanations to that. First is that he was tired, in lightside version only desire to save Kota and rebels gave him strength to resist lightning.
Another is that Marek was empowered by hatered towards Vader. With Vader's death emotion that empowered him was gone.
Also, Palpatine mind dominated him, only in lightside version Marek resisted his influence with help of Bail Organa, same way Palpatine tooled darkside Luke.


Indeed, canonically Anakin was twice more powerful than even Sidious.
However, we are not discussing TOR, where Exile+Scourge<<<<Nyriss<<<<<<<<<<Revan<<<<Vitiate.
As I said superior power doesn't make them much faster. Even powerful Jedi can be outskilled by a Manalorian, assassin or Yuzhan Vong. Cin Dralic had complete fencing mastery, yet, he didn't have real combat experience of fighting real Sith like Kenobi.


Kota was looking for a fight with Vader himself and was dissapointed, when Marek came instead. If he was such a weak opponent, where would that confidence come from? Moreover, apart from resisting Marek's TK(his strongest advantage) he deflected his lightning with bare hand. Do you recall anyone else apart from Yoda and Dooku doing it?

Shaak Ti weak?
How many Jedi gave explosion on death? None. It implies that she did have some insane power in her, likely above even Marek because of attunment with surrounding nature. And who said that she is weak with lightsaber? Also, imho her agility and Ataru allowed her to fight better on sarlacc with uneven and "treacherous" surface. In any case even Vader said that Marek would need full power of the darkside to defeat her.

If characters are mostly unknown, why there is need to assume they are weak? Windu struggled against unknown characters in other books. Even FotJ Luke struggled with a lot of random Force users.


True. But does it really look like Vader tried to overwhelm Kenobi like in RotS? Vader didn't need to rush to kill Kenobi, he demonstrated that he is master of his emotions, not other way around like before.
As I said Kenobi was attacking most of the time, while Vader kept talking instead to show off.

And Anakin at that point was restraining himself in presence of Kenobi. In 1x1 Dooku didn't land a single kick on Anakin even in CW. Still I accept that Dooku might kick Vader but would it affect him much? Vader tanked even Marek's Force blast compared to "force of small explosion".


I know. I meant SW styles. Specifically that Kenobi fought offensively but in newer films he adopted defensive style.

Added to this: Shaak Ti fought Anakin/Vader in the Jedi temple, and managed to escape and fight clear.

That's heck of impressive. Cin Drallig was defeated one-armed, but she managed to fight her way past him.

Originally posted by Q99
Added to this: Shaak Ti fought Anakin/Vader in the Jedi temple, and managed to escape and fight clear.

That's heck of impressive. Cin Drallig was defeated one-armed, but she managed to fight her way past him.

How do you know this?

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
How do you know this?
Well, if she was in Force Unleashed, she had to escape the temple. In the Novelization, she was in the temple and tried to stop Anakin from goint to Palpatine's office.

The scene has never been directly shown, but the event was mentioned in the Force Unleashed's databank entries.

To quote Wookiepedia (yea, I know, not always a good source, but convenient):

"As the 501st Legion of the Grand Army of the Republic, led by Darth Vader, descended on the Temple, Ti rallied her fellow Jedi in an attempt to repulse the Sith and his minions. At one point Ti engaged Vader in a fierce duel. Despite her great skill as a warrior she was unable to defeat him. However, Ti did escape after managing to disorientate Vader. While fighting valiantly alongside her peers, Ti quickly realized that she could not prevent the fall of the Temple."

Originally posted by Arhael
But who would point it out? Jedi inspire each other, Windu and Yoda praised Kenobi, while Vader ordered Marek around and threatened.

Well it could easily be mentioned in a sourcebook. I'm not sure if it has been, but I've not heard anything. Vader could also point it out, He does praise his abilities sometimes.

But I'm not sure why we should just assume he's completely mastered Juyo unless that's confirmed for us somewhere.



Originally posted by Arhael
Vader shouldn't be difficult?
I will point out that Vader is still chosen one and still has the same midichlorian count despite his injuries and bad health in general, also, his suit was enhanced with Sith alchemy.

Yoda was very old and his body was very weak, he couldn't even walk properly. He couldn't give strong attacks because of his very small weight as well as lack of physical strength. Because of small height he had to jump every time he attacked. His hands were much shorter and even his lightsaber was short reach. Speed is the only Yoda's advantage.
Yet, you praise Dooku for going toe to toe with Yoda, while lowball Marek for going toe to toe with Vader saying that strength is the only Vader's advantage". That's exact double standard that Forced me to argue here..

I praise Dooku for going toe to toe with Yoda because we know how formidable Yoda is. According to the script he battered Sidious in the Saber match. And at least matched him in their Force contest.

Vader on the other hand has been canonically confirmed by Lucas to be 80% as powerful as Sidious. Lucas also states in the ESB Audio commentary that Vader has "lost a lot of power in the force," comparing ESB Vader to pre-injury Anakin.

According to Tempest a recent issue of Insider also claimed Yoda may be most skilled Saber duelist in the history of the Jedi.

So of course I will give more credit to Dooku for going toe to toe with Yoda, than Galen for stalemating Vader in Sabers (TFUII) or defeating him with great difficulty (TFUI).

Originally posted by Arhael



Kota was looking for a fight with Vader himself and was dissapointed, when Marek came instead. If he was such a weak opponent, where would that confidence come from? Moreover, apart from resisting Marek's TK(his strongest advantage) he deflected his lightning with bare hand. Do you recall anyone else apart from Yoda and Dooku doing it?

That's true. According to the novel Kota did deflect Galen's force attacks.

I never said he was weak.


Originally posted by Arhael
Shaak Ti weak?
How many Jedi gave explosion on death? None. It implies that she did have some insane power in her, likely above even Marek because of attunment with surrounding nature. And who said that she is weak with lightsaber? Also, imho her agility and Ataru allowed her to fight better on sarlacc with uneven and "treacherous" surface. In any case even Vader said that Marek would need full power of the darkside to defeat her.

If characters are mostly unknown, why there is need to assume they are weak? Windu struggled against unknown characters in other books. Even FotJ Luke struggled with a lot of random Force users.

I never said Shaak Ti was weak either.

I think you've misunderstood my point, which is that Galen has struggled with every noteworthy opponent he's faced in Sabers.

If he was really Zonakin, Windu, Sidious level in Sabers, we really should have seen a few Saber Stomps Imho.

Originally posted by Arhael
True. But does it really look like Vader tried to overwhelm Kenobi like in RotS? Vader didn't need to rush to kill Kenobi, he demonstrated that he is master of his emotions, not other way around like before.
As I said Kenobi was attacking most of the time, while Vader kept talking instead to show off.

Actually yes it did look like he was trying to overwhelm Kenobi. The proof is the second Obi-Wan put his guard down he cut him down.

I think he was just a more measured fighter than Sith Anakin, and focused his anger much better by this point.

Originally posted by Arhael
And Anakin at that point was restraining himself in presence of Kenobi. In 1x1 Dooku didn't land a single kick on Anakin even in CW. Still I accept that Dooku might kick Vader but would it affect him much? Vader tanked even Marek's Force blast compared to "force of small explosion".



I know Anakin was more restrained, but we're talking about mobility here, and I gave an example of Dooku's mobility. Parrying back Kenobi and Anakin's blades at the same time, then force choking Obi-Wan with one hand, whilst kicking Anakin from behind was a great example of mobility.

As for a kick that sent ROTS Anakin flying across the room, yes I do think it would affect Vader. Padawan Luke kicked Vader onto his rear in ROTJ. Vader braced for Marek's force attack. Kick's mid-saber fight tend to catch opponents off-guard.

Well it could easily be mentioned in a sourcebook. I'm not sure if it has been, but I've not heard anything. Vader could also point it out, He does praise his abilities sometimes.

But I'm not sure why we should just assume he's completely mastered Juyo unless that's confirmed for us somewhere.

Sourcebooks are based on info provided by actual books, games and other material. The TFU book lacks such info, thus sourcebooks will not have it either.

Also, info in books is subject to author's interpretation and opinion. For example, complete encyclopaedia states that Marek "ultimately was no match for Palpatine's power", however, that's not what happened in the book.


Yes, it is possible that he disarmed Sidious. They fought on platform, which gave Yoda advantage. Sidious couldn't move around and was statically staying in one place, while Yoda still could jump all over the place.

As for power Yoda failed to absorb his lightning at beginning. On platforms Sidious was throwing multiple platforms, while Yoda mostly dodged. Imho Yoda used Force more wisely conserving energy, which allowed him to stalemate Sidious at the end.


True. However, it's rather vague statement.
Let me throw a few other canon examples.
Lumiya - she was more machine than Vader.

"The Force is the energy of the living. You interact with it, its eddies and flows, with your own living body. It's all right to have a mechanical part or two-an implant, a replacement foot. But for true Mastery in the Force, light side or dark side, you have to be mostly organic. I'm not, and so the greatest, the most significant powers, I can never learn."

Limiya stated that greatest powers cannot be learned, however, she never said that her regular powers got weaker.

"Nelani tried again, this time with the bust of the Bothan. It reached a halfway point between her and Lumiya, but the older woman reached out with her own free hand and the bust stopped in midair. Now it strained forward toward her; a moment later, it crept back through the air toward Nelani. It was a piece in a game of push-of-war between the women, and neither was winning.
The strain showed in Lumiya's voice, causing it to hoarsen.
...
Lumiya cast a sideways glance at the bust hovering between her and Nelani. It was beginning to creep back toward her, and the strain of keeping it at bay was showing on her face.
...
Lumiya closed her eyes and strained, but the bust still moved toward her.
...
Her last words were little more than a gasp, and her control slipped at that point."

Her Force struggle demonstrates that she is not weak in the Force, however, she gets exhausted faster than normal Force users. She was still capable to fight Mara and Luke on even terms. Even angered Luke only drove her back instead of outright stomping.

I think the way Lucas portrayed the Force is that greater power gives greater Force reserves, not stronger Force attacks. And I can support this idea with loads and loads of evidence.
Most notable one is Kenobi stalemating Anakin's Force push.
Yoda was more powerful than Dooku, however, he couldn't simply disarm him like in case with Ventress.
Yoda stalemated Sidious but them having perfect equal Force potential would be way too big coincedence. They had equal Force mastery but Sidious as more powerful had larger Force reserves.

I, also, can give many examples of prime Luke struggling against inferior Force users as well as stalemating far more powerful ones to support this idea.

Characters like Yoda, Windu, Dooku and especially Kenobi demonstrated that it is possible to stalemate far more powerful users both in combat and Force.

Back to Vader. Even in TFU II the clone was nearly getting overwhelmed by Vader's TK but after some struggle was overpowering him. It supports the idea that Vader's TK is as strong as prior to losing body parts as he still has got the same medichlorian count. However, on entering a Force contest he gets exhausted very fast and loses control.


Is it canon source? In any case whatever skill he had, he still has got a lot of physical limitations to deal with. Vader is, also, one of the most skilled saber combatants, so Yoda is not above him in that regard.



Anakin never stomped anybody in sabers.
Kenobi couldn't even stomp Mandalorian in sabers. Windu never stomped anyone.
Also, if you mention "Zonakin", Zomarek struck Vader with lightsaber several times before Force handling him.

Also, I will refer to interpretation above that even with suprerior power he still needs to outskill other inferior characters that also achieved mastery in Force and combat or at least fight them until they get exhausted.


Nope. He and Kenobi were chatting, until Luke showed up, which provoked Vader to cut conversation short. )
He was gonna kill Kenobi but he wasn't in a hurry.
"Last time we met I was nothing but the learner and now I am the Master". - According to Vader's opinion he improved since, not other way around. But you still can dismiss his opinion as a rant of an insane elder.

Are you serious ? really ? which movie ?
Real simple Real short, NONE .

I was just reading this thread.
And I still say NONE.....Somebody need to bring this hype down.

To over look Mace and say he's just all sabers is BS.
Vader's TK is hyped just as saying the Cowboys are gonna win every game
including the Super Bowl.

Make sure you add the 501st w/Vader
BC if it was Vader alone against the Jedi Order,Order 66 wouldn't have came to pass.
He was OK when he was all human.

I still say the box on his chest (target )
The oxygen tank on his back (target )
A well timed or broken rhythym decapation.

or tire him out
make him use all his Force reserves w/everything I just said.
end of duel.
plus here's a bonus don't have to be Mace, I say any Jedi
(Hell) Boba Fett almost beat Vader.

Originally posted by Arhael
Sourcebooks are based on info provided by actual books, games and other material. The TFU book lacks such info, thus sourcebooks will not have it either.

Also, info in books is subject to author's interpretation and opinion. For example, complete encyclopaedia states that Marek "ultimately was no match for Palpatine's power", however, that's not what happened in the book.

Ok but there's still no quote anywhere that says Starkiller completely mastered Juyo. Although his combination of Soresu for defense and then using Juyo when an opportunity for attack comes is quite deadly Imo.

But it takes a long time to Master Juyo. You have to become a master of multiple other forms first. And then go on to learn and master Juyo.

And even if he was "A Master" of Juyo, I don't see how that would put him on the level of Mace or Dooku who are the Ultimate Masters of the forms they use.



Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, it is possible that he disarmed Sidious. They fought on platform, which gave Yoda advantage. Sidious couldn't move around and was statically staying in one place, while Yoda still could jump all over the place..

Tbh I'm not seeing where Sidious was disadvantaged. He wasn't jumping around when he was fighting Mace and had a good footing. Whilst little Yoda who has to jump around, was having to jump on the edges of the pod. Not ideal either.

Also it was Sidious who retreated to that position. So it was his own choice.





Originally posted by Arhael
True. However, it's rather vague statement.

I don't see how. He's given an exact figure. 80%. How can that be vague?

And he's said Vader has "Lost a lot of power in the force AND a lot of feasibility to become more powerful than the Emporer" ESB Audio commentary. So he's clearly put ROTS Anakin above Vader in 2 categories there. Power and Potential.

Originally posted by Arhael
Let me throw a few other canon examples.

Ok. But Lucas's words always hold higher in terms of canonicity.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lumiya - she was more machine than Vader.

"The Force is the energy of the living. You interact with it, its eddies and flows, with your own living body. It's all right to have a mechanical part or two-an implant, a replacement foot. But for true Mastery in the Force, light side or dark side, you have to be mostly organic. I'm not, and so the greatest, the most significant powers, I can never learn."

Limiya stated that greatest powers cannot be learned, however, she never said that her regular powers got weaker.

Anakin says it himself in ROTS that he's like a composer gone deaf, or an artist gone blind. That's suggesting not just a small difference but a pretty large one.

And in your own quote it says "The Force is the energy of the living. You interact with it, its eddies and flows, with your own living body. "

So that's pretty clear it will effect your connection to the force as confirmed by Vader himself in the ROTS Novel.





Originally posted by Arhael
Is it canon source? In any case whatever skill he had, he still has got a lot of physical limitations to deal with. Vader is, also, one of the most skilled saber combatants, so Yoda is not above him in that regard.

It's in the Clone Wars Encyclopedia that Yoda has fully mastered every single form. And tbh it would be stupid any other way considering his age.

So yes Yoda is definitely more skilled than Vader. He's more skilled than anyone else in the mythos.




Originally posted by Arhael
Nope. He and Kenobi were chatting, until Luke showed up, which provoked Vader to cut conversation short. )
He was gonna kill Kenobi but he wasn't in a hurry.
"Last time we met I was nothing but the learner and now I am the Master". - According to Vader's opinion he improved since, not other way around. But you still can dismiss his opinion as a rant of an insane elder.

What makes you think Vader could get past Obi Wan's Saber defenses when the younger and more powerful Anakin could not?!

I see no evidence that Vader was holding back.

Anakin never reached his potential before he had to have the Cybernetics, and Vader became a TK master after he calmed down a bit and gained more mastery of the Dark Side. Vader is ofeten considered weak and pathetic. If that isso, how had he survived all the way until episode VI? I still think that Vader is more powerful than people give him credit for. That is why I made this thread. If the thread was "Who could Mace Windu defeat?" the answer would be EVERYONE from a lot of people. Everyone thinks Mace is a god and would never lose. Vader prettymuch fights like Mace does in terms of aggressiveness, yet he is considered a joke.

He survived by the 501st
And no Mace is no god,just better than peak suit, pre suit , whatever suit. (my opinion )
Everything Darth Power has said about his Force potential.

We all said and agreed.
So how can this cyborg defeat any body stronger than he is without the 501st?
Saving his ass?
It's gonna take more than TK Mastery to stop any Master of the Force.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
He survived by the 501st
And no Mace is no god,just better than peak suit, pre suit , whatever suit. (my opinion )
Everything Darth Power has said about his Force potential.

We all said and agreed.
So how can this cyborg defeat any body stronger than he is without the 501st?
Saving his ass?
It's gonna take more than TK Mastery to stop any Master of the Force.
Vader has shown REDICULOUS feats with TK. You really don't think Vader has fought aggressive Lightsaber duelists before? This is not rediculous odds like the Jedi Temple, This is One v One. Mace rarely uses the Force in fights. Vader usually does. That might be enough totip the balance.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Anakin never reached his potential before he had to have the Cybernetics, and Vader became a TK master after he calmed down a bit and gained more mastery of the Dark Side. Vader is ofeten considered weak and pathetic. If that isso, how had he survived all the way until episode VI? I still think that Vader is more powerful than people give him credit for. That is why I made this thread. If the thread was "Who could Mace Windu defeat?" the answer would be EVERYONE from a lot of people. Everyone thinks Mace is a god and would never lose. Vader prettymuch fights like Mace does in terms of aggressiveness, yet he is considered a joke.

We know Vader is Powerful, because Lucas himself said he's 80% as powerful as the Emporer.

All Im saying is Lucas's words suggest Pre-Suit Vader was even more powerful. Considering he defeated Count Dooku I would think that makes sense.

I'm talking about in an all out. Obviously Vader's TK is far beyond pre-suit Vader's, and there's always the chance Suited Vader could just Force Choke Pre-Suit Vader.

I'll be the 1st to admit that Mace can't beat everyone.
Vader has his moments but defeating Jedi alone?
Only the weaker and average Jedi.

All I'm saying is Mace , Yoda , or Obi Wan didn't need an army to "hide " behind.
Vader's good but not that good to defeat the most powerful. (my opinion ).

Originally posted by juyomaster34


All I'm saying is Mace , Yoda , or Obi Wan didn't need an army to "hide " behind.


Really? Did they not go into the Clone Wars with an army??

Mace would win the majority against Vader. But there's always the chance Vader could Force Choke/Levitate him.

Why did he send Star Killer to Kiill Shaak Ti ,Kota, Kazdan Paratus?
When he could have done it himself ?
He's so powerful right? TK Mastery and all right?
Why send a boy to do what Palpatine told Him to do?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really? Did they not go into the Clone Wars with an army??

Mace would win the majority against Vader. But there's always the chance Vader could Force Choke/Levitate him.
Yes they did by orders of Chancellor Palpatine.
I'm taking about one on one not a legion or a company or a platoon.

Force choke/Levitate?possibly?
Mace would Force crush/Levitate him
before taking a hand or an arm.

Vader's slow he'll try TK to make up for him being slow and bulky
It ain't like Mace can't counter TK.
Which I'm sure he can.
TK is his only defense,besides Saber Throw to Mace's Saber barrier and throw.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Why did he send Star Killer to Kiill Shaak Ti ,Kota, Kazdan Paratus?
When he could have done it himself ?
He's so powerful right? TK Mastery and all right?
Why send a boy to do what Palpatine told Him to do?

To rest Starkiller. Was part of his training. Fact is Starkiller with like 3 power up's later took down Vader after a hard fight.

So the point in time your talking about Vader was more powerful than Starkiller.

Originally posted by juyomaster34



Mace would Force crush/Levitate him
before taking a hand or an arm.

Unlikely because Vader's Force TK is above Mace's.

Says you it's above his TK. lol
I'm saying if he is that Powerful he could have taken them down himself.
But he wasn't that Powerful so his TK ain't above Mace or Yoda for that matter.lol.

Face it Vader is all hype if he went up against Shaak Ti , Kota,or Kazdan Paratus.
he would have got stomped. Then here comes... the 501st...to the rescue!!! lol.

My thoughts on Mace vs Vader thing:

First of all, Vader's Force power is good enough to virtually stalemate Galen "I have crazy a$$ force-feats" Marek....
Gauging by this alone, we can conclude that he is above Mace in the Force department.

On the other hand, Mace is an outstanding saber duelist, whose skill is only rivaled by a few in the entire mythos. I'm sure he will take sabers handily.

All-out between Vader an Mace: I'd say Mace takes 7/10 due to being able to evade/defend against at least some of Vader Force attacks, then close the distance and win in sabers. However once Vader will have a clear chance to outduel Mace Force-wise, Mace is done.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
My thoughts on Mace vs Vader thing:

First of all, Vader's Force power is good enough to virtually stalemate Galen "I have crazy a$$ force-feats" Marek....
Gauging by this alone, we can conclude that he is above Mace in the Force department.

On the other hand, Mace is an outstanding saber duelist, whose skill is only rivaled by a few in the entire mythos. I'm sure he will take sabers handily.

All-out between Vader an Mace: I'd say Mace takes 7/10 due to being able to evade/defend against at least some of Vader Force attacks, then close the distance and win in sabers. However once Vader will have a clear chance to outduel Mace Force-wise, Mace is done.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Why did he send Star Killer to Kiill Shaak Ti ,Kota, Kazdan Paratus?
When he could have done it himself ?
He's so powerful right? TK Mastery and all right?
Why send a boy to do what Palpatine told Him to do?
Because he is doing other things. If you look at Vader's Wikipedia page, he was busy with his own duties

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

stalemate?Galen ?
He kicked Vader's ass !!!
that's quite a jedi mind trick you got going.

Again seriously with the TK?
Pre- peak don't matter Vader is Flawed
Mace is above this midget.

Just because we have n't seen enough of his Force use
Yall saying that this half Force potential enforcer is superior to a real Jedi master?
He'll burn out using his amped up TK.

And when he does he'll loose his head or maybe get Force crushed
either way strike at Vader's weak points and he's done.

Funny you mentioned the Temple
which was I don't know about a legion or so of 501st?

All we see is him fighting a sub battle master,his padawan/turned Jedi knight
and then big bad Ani killing younglings?

really? the 501st did all the killing
And he's better because he slaughtered younglings ?

really? like I said in several threads ago,
Treymane kicked his ass
Galen and his clone kicked his ass,that's fact and yall's favorite that's canon

no matter how you amp his "TK" Mace's TK is just as good.
Vader is a walking shatter point
all Mace is got to do is pick one.

And please don't say he ain't got no weaknesses because he do
And don't say he won't sense his shatter point bc he will .

he won't need to close the distance bc he is just as deadly with TK as Vader is
Ask Grievous and Kar Vastor.

it was a nice hype but not good enough Vader still falls to Mace.
Maybe if you add the 501st he might just have a chance....lol

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Because he is doing other things. If you look at Vader's Wikipedia page, he was busy with his own duties

Busy? how about hiding!!! he's a coward.
he's not the Face of the empire so what duties?
Oh the you do the jedi killing and I 'll take the credit duties?

Kota got better TK than this coward,Galen do too.
Vader sends a....boy to fight me!?

the last time he went against Jedi,they were average.
He kicked No they kicked his ass,then 501st saves the day!!!

I'mma keep saying 501st because he aint nothing without them
When it comes to a Jedi more Powerful than this Coward!!! lol.

You still haven't answered my question
Can Vader take Shaak Tii ,Rahm Kota,or crazy as daffy duck Kazdan?

let me answer that No.
Not without the 501st. and his "apprentice"
How many other flunkies' credit he's gonna take for killing Jedi?
If he's so Powerful then why does Palpatine keep trying to replace him?

Simple answer: he's not
Vader was his Enforcer nothing more but a disappointment
A sad disappointment that yall just keep hyping up.
TK? Palpatine Kings him in that and Sith Lightning.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
My thoughts on Mace vs Vader thing:

First of all, Vader's Force power is good enough to virtually stalemate Galen "I have crazy a$$ force-feats" Marek....
Gauging by this alone, we can conclude that he is above Mace in the Force department.

On the other hand, Mace is an outstanding saber duelist, whose skill is only rivaled by a few in the entire mythos. I'm sure he will take sabers handily.

All-out between Vader an Mace: I'd say Mace takes 7/10 due to being able to evade/defend against at least some of Vader Force attacks, then close the distance and win in sabers. However once Vader will have a clear chance to outduel Mace Force-wise, Mace is done.

You mean Vader's crazy a$$ force feats if you believe this crap.
I only conclude that Mace is above Both Versions of this hyped up Vader.
Not only him: there's Yoda, Rahm Kota, Kazdan Paratus, Obi Wan Kenobi
Who actually kicked his a$$ (canon) by the way lol,

Too many to name
when he got stomped he lost half of his power
probably more than that. and all yall can hold for comfort is
his over rated TK,the one hope that makes Vader bad a$$

Besides the 501st, killing younglings, and barely surviving Galen Marek and his clone.
he's pretty bad a$$.

And a Sith Master that has been trying to replace his sad disappointment for...the entire
empire era or the infamous dark times but he' s still bad a$$,right?
TK and all right? lol I don't think so.

The fact he can survive and stalemate Galen or Clone is a feat in itself. TFU Novels show that Vader was giving as good as he got in either fight.
So stop hating on Vader when people put legit arguments in front of you to back themselves up. Force-wise, Vader > Mace. It's just true.

And for the record. Vader didn't lose half his power. Lucas even went on record and said that Vader = 8/10 or 80% of the Emperor's power.

Rahm Kota above Vader?
Kazdan above Vader?

Are you high?

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Busy? how about hiding!!! he's a coward.
he's not the Face of the empire so what duties?
Oh the you do the jedi killing and I 'll take the credit duties?

Kota got better TK than this coward,Galen do too.
Vader sends a....boy to fight me!?

the last time he went against Jedi,they were average.
He kicked No they kicked his ass,then 501st saves the day!!!

I'mma keep saying 501st because he aint nothing without them
When it comes to a Jedi more Powerful than this Coward!!! lol.

You still haven't answered my question
Can Vader take Shaak Tii ,Rahm Kota,or crazy as daffy duck Kazdan?

let me answer that No.
Not without the 501st. and his "apprentice"
How many other flunkies' credit he's gonna take for killing Jedi?
If he's so Powerful then why does Palpatine keep trying to replace him?

Simple answer: he's not
Vader was his Enforcer nothing more but a disappointment
A sad disappointment that yall just keep hyping up.
TK? Palpatine Kings him in that and Sith Lightning.
Then why are you here if you think Vader is so weak?

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Busy? how about hiding!!! he's a coward.
he's not the Face of the empire so what duties?
Oh the you do the jedi killing and I 'll take the credit duties?

Kota got better TK than this coward,Galen do too.
Vader sends a....boy to fight me!?

the last time he went against Jedi,they were average.
He kicked No they kicked his ass,then 501st saves the day!!!

I'mma keep saying 501st because he aint nothing without them
When it comes to a Jedi more Powerful than this Coward!!! lol.

You still haven't answered my question
Can Vader take Shaak Tii ,Rahm Kota,or crazy as daffy duck Kazdan?

let me answer that No.
Not without the 501st. and his "apprentice"
How many other flunkies' credit he's gonna take for killing Jedi?
If he's so Powerful then why does Palpatine keep trying to replace him?

Simple answer: he's not
Vader was his Enforcer nothing more but a disappointment
A sad disappointment that yall just keep hyping up.
TK? Palpatine Kings him in that and Sith Lightning.
Ummm. Kota did try to fight Vader and Vader TKed him into the wall and almost killed Starkiller. He is above those other jedi. He was testing Starkiller. He has killed many jedi ALONE! Read the expanded universe. He has killed masters alone.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
The fact he can survive and stalemate Galen or Clone is a feat in itself. TFU Novels show that Vader was giving as good as he got in either fight.
So stop hating on Vader when people put legit arguments in front of you to back themselves up. Force-wise, Vader > Mace. It's just true.

And for the record. Vader didn't lose half his power. Lucas even went on record and said that Vader = 8/10 or 80% of the Emperor's power.

Rahm Kota above Vader?
Kazdan above Vader?

Are you high?

Are you high? Who cares!!!
Hating on a Grievous reject with limited Force abilties?
Forget Mace this is about a sad disappointment that is constantly being replaced by a Master
that places his highest flunkies above "bad a$$ Vader". Who lookout for his amped up
TK Which can be countered

Nothing to say about him being replaced?
Nothing to say about him killing Jedi himself without 501st ?

I rest my case you have no case but his amped up TK and 501st saving your this
sad disappointment.

And for the record Galen Marek and his clone still stomped him and LET HIM LIVE!!!
Deal with it it's still fact and canon.

Yeah they're above Vader,
Mace Yoda Revan Galen Marek Rahm Kota
Like I said 4 or 5 threads ago Why send a boy to do bad a$$ TK Vader's Job ? He's a
COWARD!!! He knew he couldn't take Kota or Shaak Ti
Then he sends the Clone to go after Kota again!!!

What??Nothing to say ?? I can name plenty of Jedi Sith and who ever that can still
take Vader and win.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Ummm. Kota did try to fight Vader and Vader TKed him into the wall and almost killed Starkiller. He is above those other jedi. He was testing Starkiller. He has killed many jedi ALONE! Read the expanded universe. He has killed masters alone.

He killed them with the 501st and flunkies.I read the EU. I know he was testing him
The question still remains Why he couldn't do it himself? He's Vader,right?

Here we go with the TK.
One TK to the wall proves nothing....
No Galen almost killed him,get it right.

Again if he was above them,then answer my question?
Why did Palpatine want him replaced?

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Then why are you here if you think Vader is so weak?


The question is if Palpatine KNOWS he's weak why post this thread?
I rest my case, You can have your fantasy ,I mean thread....lol.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
He killed them with the 501st and flunkies.I read the EU. I know he was testing him
The question still remains Why he couldn't do it himself? He's Vader,right?

Here we go with the TK.
One TK to the wall proves nothing....
No Galen almost killed him,get it right.

Again if he was above them,then answer my question?
Why did Palpatine want him replaced?
Have you played Force Unleashed? The only thing that saved Starkiller on Corellia was PROXY's intervention. And he took Kota out in a second. And if you read the novels and didn't fight Vader on easy mode like a noob, you would know. The book describes the fight as Starkiller barely beating Vader. Sorry, just because you think Mace is so great and you are obvioulsly a Starkiller fan doesn't mean Vader is weak by any means.

Good point I like them all.
I got both Games.
Speaking of games I'm about to get back on the Assassin's Creed 3.

Sorry to get off subject.

They could have made them all better Mace,Vader,Yoda,Dooku,
like I said you made a good thread,good topic.

Man you guys were Serious!!! LOL
Now that's how you get a debate fun minus the language sorry guys
I thought you Arhael and Darth Power was teaming up LOL!!!

New guy Forgot your name I'm just having fun.
I felt like I was getting TKed all over the place!!!! lol.

IF you guys have a PS3 we'll have to get on line and have some matches
I got a 360 too but all my games are on PS3.

Anyway good debate good thread let's keep it going!!!!
Who 's got another good topic?

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Good point I like them all.
I got both Games.
Speaking of games I'm about to get back on the Assassin's Creed 3.

Sorry to get off subject.

They could have made them all better Mace,Vader,Yoda,Dooku,
like I said you made a good thread,good topic.

Man you guys were Serious!!! LOL
Now that's how you get a debate fun minus the language sorry guys
I thought you Arhael and Darth Power was teaming up LOL!!!

New guy Forgot your name I'm just having fun.
I felt like I was getting TKed all over the place!!!! lol.

IF you guys have a PS3 we'll have to get on line and have some matches
I got a 360 too but all my games are on PS3.

Anyway good debate good thread let's keep it going!!!!
Who 's got another good topic?
Sorry I got so angry, I just grew up with Vader being an untouchable badass. I love how he handled Luke the first time! I read stuff about him taking on entire armies now, granted he sustains many injuries. He is just so cool to me. There is a reason he is #1 on every poll about Villains in general or Star Wars characters. Anyway, ignore my attempts to cling to my childhood. The EU made everyone rediculous!

No need for apologies, I grew up on them,too.
I read the same thang,you hang on to your heroes!!!
I still hang on to mine. We all get angry we just have to learn to control it..

I loved how he handled Luke,too.
l Still think Mace is an untouchable bad ass
Anakin earned the respect of the 501st and the other clones.

Mace had the 187th but I don't think he cared for their respect
Anakin had the most Feared army in the Republic and Empire
So he's pretty much bad ass I can't say the same for Luke or Leia
Kyle Katarn maybe but Luke? He don't impress me as bad or bad ass.

just mediocre (my opinion)

Originally posted by juyomaster34
No need for apologies, I grew up on them,too.
I read the same thang,you hang on to your heroes!!!
I still hang on to mine. We all get angry we just have to learn to control it..

I loved how he handled Luke,too.
l Still think Mace is an untouchable bad ass
Anakin earned the respect of the 501st and the other clones.

Mace had the 187th but I don't think he cared for their respect
Anakin had the most Feared army in the Republic and Empire
So he's pretty much bad ass I can't say the same for Luke or Leia
Kyle Katarn maybe but Luke? He don't impress me as bad or bad ass.

just mediocre (my opinion)
Lol. I will admit that Mace is pretty cool. He pulled off some cool feats. if three jedi masters can't touch Sidious and Mace was dead even with him, that's saying something.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Lol. I will admit that Mace is pretty cool. He pulled off some cool feats. if three jedi masters can't touch Sidious and Mace was dead even with him, that's saying something.


Vader trains apprentices well,I really hated it that they didn't give the rank of Master
and practice Juyo.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Vader trains apprentices well,I really hated it that they didn't give the rank of Master
and practice Juyo.

Hey, if you think about it, he was the Sith Master in those five minutes between tossing Palpatine over the balcony and dying

Originally posted by Q99
Hey, if you think about it, he was the Sith Master in those five minutes between tossing Palpatine over the balcony and dying
Not really, because he was redeemed and a Jedi again when he betrayed Palpatine.