Darth Bane vs. Starkiller

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jmoul
On Ambria for a neutral setting, one, all-out battle between the Sith'ari and the one who broke the Rule of Two. Bane does not have the orbalisks. Who is the winner?

Arhael
Starkiller

Nephthys
I'd say that Bane is the clear superior with a lightsaber, but Starkiller is utterly insane in terms of the things he does with the Force. This has always been one of the fights that I'm undecided on.

jmoul
Arhael Why do you think Starkiller wins? I am a fan of both, but just looking for reasons why one beats the other.

Arhael
Trained lightsaber combat from childhood like Maul as well as sparred with Vader. Book shows him as very clever combatant analyzing opponent's style and looking for weaknesses to expose instead of relying on sheer power. Also, his offensive Force use during combat seems even more impressive than Dooku's.

As for power resisting lightning of Sidious without lightsaber and Yoda's Force absorb is something no Jedi/Sith could replicate.

jmoul
I can agree with those reasons. Again, I am a fan of both.

Ascendancy
I give Bane the edge in saber prowess both in terms of skills shown and because of his exposure to far more combat forms and saber types in combat during the war and after.

As far as the Force and all out I'm not sure what to say. Some of Galen's feats are ridiculous in terms of the total Force power wielded to carry them off. I don't think Galen faced any assaults with the Force that quite compare with what Bane could level at him, but neither has Bane gone up against what Galen can send his way.

If they are in a somewhat enclosed area I'd say Bane takes it. On Ambria out in the open I say it's likely Bane has trouble withstanding what Galen can bring to bear on him, though perhaps his lightning and Force Necro could give Starkiller the fits. Still probably Galen in this case, unless Bane gets close and transfers into him or takes him in sabers.

jmoul
Originally posted by Ascendancy
I give Bane the edge in saber prowess both in terms of skills shown and because of his exposure to far more combat forms and saber types in combat during the war and after.

Then again, Bane never actually fought in the war. He did the lightning ritual (if it has a proper name, then please let me now), but besides that, he never faced combat in the war.

Ascendancy
Originally posted by jmoul
Then again, Bane never actually fought in the war. He did the lightning ritual (if it has a proper name, then please let me now), but besides that, he never faced combat in the war.

I'm speaking to the Sith that he killed during the war, and after the Jedi.

The_Tempest
Feat-wise, Marek is leagues and leagues beyond Bane. Whether or not he could bring that power to bear in combat is an entirely different story.

Rookwood
Originally posted by jmoul
On Ambria for a neutral setting, one, all-out battle between the Sith'ari and the one who broke the Rule of Two. Bane does not have the orbalisks. Who is the winner?

Bane.

Bane wins with sabers, quite handily.

Bane could destroy, or match RotS Sidious with the Force (who Galen barely did jack to) - so Bane would defeat Galen with the Force as well.


After a moderately difficult duel - the winner is Bane, on all counts.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Rookwood
Bane.

Bane wins with sabers, quite handily.

Bane could destroy, or match RotS Sidious with the Force (who Galen barely did jack to) - so Bane would defeat Galen with the Force as well.


After a moderately difficult duel - the winner is Bane, on all counts.

Nah.

And Galen never fought ROTS Sidious.

Nephthys
Like you said Tempest, Galen seems to be more overtly powerful, but imo Bane has greater mastery and can use his powers more devastatingly in combat, he seems to be better at focusing his power to cause disintegration and the like.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Galen seems to be more overtly powerful,

Much more.

Originally posted by Nephthys
but imo Bane has greater mastery and can use his powers more devastatingly in combat, he seems to be better at focusing his power to cause disintegration and the like.

Vader had greater mastery too, but it didn't help him.

Nephthys
Vaders never disintegrated anything with a wave of his hand. And he can't even use lightning.

axel_jovan

Nephthys
When? Sure you're not thinking of Sidious?

axel_jovan
Nah, I'm pretty positive it was Vader. Happened in one of the comics. (not a comic fan, so don't press me on this one lol)
I remember reading about it in Vader respect thread though.

Nephthys
Sidious disintegrated a lightsaber in a comic (Dark Empire). I think you're confusing him and Vader.

axel_jovan
Confusing Sidious with Vader? What kind of SW fan are you taking me for? smile

Yeah, I'm aware Sids disintergated Leia's lighsaber in DE.....yet, I'm pretty sure Vader replicated this feat in one of his comics....

Nephthys
I'm checking his respect threads across the net, but I can't see anything. Maybe you're thinking of when he disabled Aurra Sings saber by overloading it's crystal?

axel_jovan
Yeah, can't find it either.

Hmm, my memory's rusty, you might be right.


EDIT: either way, IMHO Bane wins with extreme difficulty.

Nephthys
This is admittedly pretty damn impressive and makes Satale Shan look like a mewling infant in comparison:

Coruscant Nights: Street of Shadows
"Instead of following up his first move with a direct assault, however, Vader did something completely unexpected. He just stood there, ignoring her as casually as if she didn't exist. As she stared, he inspected her lightsaber thoughtfully; then, holding it out at arm's length, he reactivated it. The crimson spire of destructive energy pointed straight up from his gloved fist. At first, nothing seemed to be happening. Then Sing realized that the shaft was getting brighter. Its brilliance intensified until she had to raise a hand to shield her eyes from the all-but-blinding scarlet radiance. The refulgence dazzled her eyes, overwhelming everything else; the street, the buildings, the wrecked landspeeder. Only Vader remained somehow visible; standing there, holding the weapon easily, seemingly unaffected by the blade's terrible radiance. The familiar deep hum that was the weapon's identifying sound rose in pitch, higher and higher, until it tore at her hearing. And then, in a final burst of screaming incandescence, the lightsaber's shaft vanished.

Sing stared in sheer disbelief. Her eyes were capable of adapting much more rapidly to changes in ambient light than were a human's. A couple of blinks and the afterimages cleared, normal vision returning almost immediately. Vader stood motionless, the weapon's hilt still gripped in his outstretched fist. She could see a tiny wisp of smoke curling from the emitter.

He had overloaded the lightsaber's energy crystal through the Force. Sing prided herself on her knowledge of weaponry and their individual strengths and weaknesses. It was her profession, after all. But she had never seen or heard of such a thing before.

The Dark Lord opened his hand. Reduced to a cylinder of useless metal, composites, and components, the now harmless weapon clattered onto the pavement."

S_W_LeGenD
And how does the above makes Satele Shan an infant in comparison?

What she did is far from being common. She stopped an actual lightsaber strike with her bare hands. This feat seems to be different from that of Vader's.

Nonetheless, what Vader did is also impressive.

Nephthys
She barely blocked a lightsaber, he pwned the shit out of one. Casually.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
She barely blocked a lightsaber, he pwned the shit out of one. Casually.
She blocked a lightsaber strike with her proficiency in Tutaminis, which is nearly impossible for most to do.

Vader caused a lightsaber's crystal to explode. I don't get the impression of him blocking a lightsaber strike. This feat is different from that of Satele's.

Nephthys
She blocked the blade, he pumped in so much energy that it light up like a sun and overloaded. Thats insanely more power than it would take to just block the blade.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
She blocked the blade, he pumped in so much energy that it light up like a sun and overloaded. Thats insanely more power than it would take to just block the blade.
Blocking the blade may sound easy to you but it required considerable power. Prior to this feat, lightsabers were perceived like unstoppable weapons when in motion. Satele Shan changed this perception.

What Vader did is very different in contrast. He didn't had to stop a lightsaber strike; he caused its crystal to explode. Vader's feat is impressive in its own right but you cannot use this to discredit Satele's feat which is of entirely different nature and also far from being common.

Nephthys
I can and I will. What Vader did was on another scale that what Shan did. Plus, didn't she absorb the energy?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
I can and I will.
If you are considering the intensity of the explosion of the crystal to fellate Vader's feat then keep in mind that the explosion part is (superficially) impressive due to the cystal's own energy which got released in the process.

Originally posted by Nephthys What Vader did was on another scale that what Shan did. Plus, didn't she absorb the energy?
His feat is DIFFERENT in nature. Have Vader ever blocked a lightsaber with bare hands? Satele Shan bended and/or absorbed the freaking blade itself, which would have cut through most opponents in her place.

Ascendancy
You guys stop this nonsense and get back to riding Bane's Force-enhanced cajones with me right now!

The_Tempest
By the by, EU!Sidious disintegrated a lightsaber on Byss. There's no reason to think he could necessarily replicate that feat elsewhere.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vaders never disintegrated anything with a wave of his hand. And he can't even use lightning.

I'm not sure why disintegration is being held as the standard for beating Marek. Unlike Plagueis and Marek, Bane has never been proven to be capable of disintegrating objects without orbalisks or some other form of dark side enhancement.

jmoul
Tempest, thank you for returning the discussion to my original question.

Nephthys
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If you are considering the intensity of the explosion of the crystal to fellate Vader's feat then keep in mind that the explosion part is (superficially) impressive due to the cystal's own energy which got released in the process.

The lightsabers energy output was clearly increased many times over.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
His feat is DIFFERENT in nature. Have Vader ever blocked a lightsaber with bare hands? Satele Shan bended and/or absorbed the freaking blade itself, which would have cut through most opponents in her place.

She didn't bend it. And it being different means nothing. In terms of power it is far more impressive. No need to get so defensive.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
By the by, EU!Sidious disintegrated a lightsaber on Byss. There's no reason to think he could necessarily replicate that feat elsewhere.

I can't really remember that much, but weren't they on a a ship circling Byss? Can a nexus extend into space?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not sure why disintegration is being held as the standard for beating Marek.

I'm not sure why you thought it was. All I ever said was that Bane has shown more focused devastation than Marek. Not that he would actually beat him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Unlike Plagueis and Marek, Bane has never been proven to be capable of disintegrating objects without orbalisks or some other form of dark side enhancement.

He disintegrated dozens of technobeasts at the same time. Of course he's capable of disintegration without them, the orbalisks don't boost him that much.

Ascendancy
Originally posted by The_Tempest
By the by, EU!Sidious disintegrated a lightsaber on Byss. There's no reason to think he could necessarily replicate that feat elsewhere.



I'm not sure why disintegration is being held as the standard for beating Marek. Unlike Plagueis and Marek, Bane has never been proven to be capable of disintegrating objects without orbalisks or some other form of dark side enhancement.
He did so to the Force-sensitives atop Nadd's temple. There was nothing left of them.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
I can't really remember that much, but weren't they on a a ship circling Byss?

No, they were on Byss, in the Imperial Citadel.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Can a nexus extend into space?

A nexus can exist in space: Palpatine's death left one in orbit over Endor. As to whether or not planet nexuses extend to the surrounding space, I'm not sure.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not sure why you thought it was. All I ever said was that Bane has shown more focused devastation than Marek. Not that he would actually beat him.

Again, Vader's mastery exceeded Marek's as well but he still lost both fights.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He disintegrated dozens of technobeasts at the same time. Of course he's capable of disintegration without them, the orbalisks don't boost him that much.

According to whom?



Nadd's temple sounds like a dark side nexus. Which book and chapter/page?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
The lightsabers energy output was clearly increased many times over.
And this was due to the energy getting released from the crystal. Basic science.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She didn't bend it. And it being different means nothing. In terms of power it is far more impressive. No need to get so defensive.
It seems far more impressive to you but this may not hold true for others.

And can you establish that it takes more power to destroy a crystal then to prevent a lightsaber blade penetration?

Your statement: "In terms of power it is far more impressive" - seems to be baseless.

And when comparing feats; difference actually matters. Satele's feat is different from that of Vader and is impressive in its own right.

Both feats are impressive to me but comparing them in the manner as you did makes no sense.

GenomeFrozener
Originally posted by Nephthys
This is admittedly pretty damn impressive and makes Satale Shan look like a mewling infant in comparison:

Coruscant Nights: Street of Shadows
"Instead of following up his first move with a direct assault, however, Vader did something completely unexpected. He just stood there, ignoring her as casually as if she didn't exist. As she stared, he inspected her lightsaber thoughtfully; then, holding it out at arm's length, he reactivated it. The crimson spire of destructive energy pointed straight up from his gloved fist. At first, nothing seemed to be happening. Then Sing realized that the shaft was getting brighter. Its brilliance intensified until she had to raise a hand to shield her eyes from the all-but-blinding scarlet radiance. The refulgence dazzled her eyes, overwhelming everything else; the street, the buildings, the wrecked landspeeder. Only Vader remained somehow visible; standing there, holding the weapon easily, seemingly unaffected by the blade's terrible radiance. The familiar deep hum that was the weapon's identifying sound rose in pitch, higher and higher, until it tore at her hearing. And then, in a final burst of screaming incandescence, the lightsaber's shaft vanished.

Sing stared in sheer disbelief. Her eyes were capable of adapting much more rapidly to changes in ambient light than were a human's. A couple of blinks and the afterimages cleared, normal vision returning almost immediately. Vader stood motionless, the weapon's hilt still gripped in his outstretched fist. She could see a tiny wisp of smoke curling from the emitter.

He had overloaded the lightsaber's energy crystal through the Force. Sing prided herself on her knowledge of weaponry and their individual strengths and weaknesses. It was her profession, after all. But she had never seen or heard of such a thing before.

The Dark Lord opened his hand. Reduced to a cylinder of useless metal, composites, and components, the now harmless weapon clattered onto the pavement."

Man, my Vader fanboyism is reactivated.

Ascendancy
Originally posted by The_Tempest


Nadd's temple sounds like a dark side nexus. Which book and chapter/page?
My bad, it's Andeddu's Temple. Dynasty of Evil. I don't have the page numbers though. It doesn't explain exactly what the technique is, but it's different than a standard Force Wave, as it's a sustained orb of darkside energy rather than a quick blast.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Ascendancy
My bad, it's Andeddu's Temple. Dynasty of Evil. I don't have the page numbers though. It doesn't explain exactly what the technique is, but it's different than a standard Force Wave, as it's a sustained orb of darkside energy rather than a quick blast.

Ok, yeah, I've read that excerpt. The text notes that Bane drew upon the energy of Andeddu's temple, meaning that such a display is not attributable to his powers alone.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, they were on Byss, in the Imperial Citadel.

Ah, my mistake. I got confused with when they were fighting on his flagship.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A nexus can exist in space: Palpatine's death left one in orbit over Endor. As to whether or not planet nexuses extend to the surrounding space, I'm not sure.

I would not imagine they extend that far personally. No-ones ever drawn on a planetary nexus from orbit.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Again, Vader's mastery exceeded Marek's as well but he still lost both fights.

Banes mastery exceeds Vaders though, so this is a false comparison. As I've pointed out, Bane's Force powers have been shown to shown to be more devastating than Galens in terms of damage.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to whom?

Simple logic. If he can disintegrate a dozen beings with the orbalisks then he should still be capable of doing it to at least one person without them unless the orbalisks multiply his power over twelve times, which is absurd enough to write it off as a non-possibility. Unless you believe that its a question of skill, in which case theres nothing suggesting the orbalisks increase his darkside mastery.

Besides, this thread takes place upon Ambria, so there is a darkside nexus for him to draw upon.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Banes mastery exceeds Vaders though,

Does it?

Originally posted by Nephthys
so this is a false comparison.

It isn't. I use Vader as an example to that superior Force mastery alone is insufficient to guarantee or even make probable victory against Marek unless that superiority is proven to be substantial.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I've pointed out, Bane's Force powers have been shown to shown to be more devastating than Galens in terms of damage.

Have they?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Simple logic. If he can disintegrate a dozen beings with the orbalisks then he should still be capable of doing it to at least one person without them unless the orbalisks multiply his power over twelve times, which is absurd enough to write it off as a non-possibility. Unless you believe that its a question of skill, in which case theres nothing suggesting the orbalisks increase his darkside mastery.

This one person in particular is a Force user who, by comparison of feats, is much more powerful than Bane or anyone Bane's ever crossed. That said, I recall the narration noting more than once that the boost afforded by the orbalisks was extreme. I can't assign a specific value to it, of course, but we have no means of determining either way.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Besides, this thread takes place upon Ambria, so there is a darkside nexus for him to draw upon.

Isn't the nexus sealed in a lake or something?

jmoul
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Isn't the nexus sealed in a lake or something?

Yes it is, but it is trapped so deep within Lake Nadd (actual name according to Darth Bane Series) that it will make no difference in terms of Force strength. After he gets poisoned by Githany, Bane considers going into the lake for the power, but quickly decides against it due to how far he would need to swim to gain any power from the nexus.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Does it?
Actually Vader's command of the Force got restricted in practice due to his mechanical parts; he could not use several (dark) offensive Force applications that would have helped his position in combat situations otherwise. In contrast, Bane had no such restrictions so he is in a better position to deal with Marek.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It isn't. I use Vader as an example to that superior Force mastery alone is insufficient to guarantee or even make probable victory against Marek unless that superiority is proven to be substantial.
Unfortunately, you overlooked Vader's shortcoming in this aspect as pointed above.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Have they?
Causing a Temple to collapse rings any bells?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This one person in particular is a Force user who, by comparison of feats, is much more powerful than Bane or anyone Bane's ever crossed. That said, I recall the narration noting more than once that the boost afforded by the orbalisks was extreme. I can't assign a specific value to it, of course, but we have no means of determining either way.
Debatable.

The best I recall from Marek during combat situations is him destroying an AT-AT, catching an X-Wing in mid-air and killing a gigantic Rancor. And yes, he did beat Shaak Ti and Vader.

However, Sidious stopped Marek dead in his tracks with his Force Lightning alone. Now I will be reminded that Sidious was very proficient in Force Lightning but so was Bane.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Isn't the nexus sealed in a lake or something?
Yes, it is. Nephthys made a misjudgement in this case. I have taught him well otherwise.

Nomi Sunrider was responsible for restricting dark side nexus in this world.

The_Tempest
Whenever you post, I entertain myself Six Degrees of Kevin BaconDarth Revan to deduce your motivation for posting and thereby reducing the quality of discussion to its lowest possible figure. Let's see if I have this right: Darth Bane studied from the Holocron of Darth Revan whereas Vader was taught by Sidious who, in turn, was trained by Plagueis, who is only known to have mentioned Revan and once at that. Per the rules of the game, you are bound to defend Bane.

Well played.



Besides Force lightning, what powers were proscribed by Vader's various mechanical parts?



No, I just didn't make the assumption that Vader's mastery is in question because he's not fully organic, unless we're to assume that every Force user with more organic limbs is more masterful than Vader.



No, but that this happened on Lehon, a Force nexus, should ring one or two for you.



Not really.



Bereft of enhancing objects like a nexus and orbalisks, that's beyond what Bane's done.



Not a point in sight.



Don't be too hard on Neph, his worst is still better than your best.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Whenever you post, I entertain myself Six Degrees of Kevin BaconDarth Revan to deduce your motivation for posting and thereby reducing the quality of discussion to its lowest possible figure. Let's see if I have this right: Darth Bane studied from the Holocron of Darth Revan whereas Vader was taught by Sidious who, in turn, was trained by Plagueis, who is only known to have mentioned Revan and once at that. Per the rules of the game, you are bound to defend Bane.

Well played.
I do not understand that how you have figured Revan as a motive for my argument in favor of Bane in this thread? Please try to step out from this kind of prejudice.

Sidious taught Maul too. So should Maul be better then Bane?

Sidious tutoring Vader does not means much when the latter was restricted in his potential after becoming part machine.

Also, Bane learned from several Sith holocrons.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Besides Force lightning, what powers were proscribed by Vader's various mechanical parts?
I do not recall Vader performing Force Drain either but Bane could. Isn't Vader restricted against offensive Force applications (involving pure dark side energies) in general?

Vader mainly employed Telekinetic Force applications during combat situations.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, I just didn't make the assumption that Vader's mastery is in question because he's not fully organic, unless we're to assume that every Force user with more organic limbs is more masterful than Vader.
If the other Force-user is powerful then it becomes an issue. Like it or not, Vader lost lot of power and potential after his injuries on Mustafar. This is how George Lucas promoted him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, but that this happened on Lehon, a Force nexus, should ring one or two for you.
Good point. But this still does not takes much away from his feat. Dark side nexus helps but does not transforms one in to a Force God or something.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really.
Convince me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Bereft of enhancing objects like a nexus and orbalisks, that's beyond what Bane's done.
Do not forget that Bane is extremely skilled lightsaber duelist and is very proficient in Force Lightning. Both of these factors can help him against Marek.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not a point in sight.
Hmm

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Don't be too hard on Neph, his worst is still better than your best.
That was intended as a joke. Nephthys is a talented debator. But you underestimating me is FUNNY.

I have debating history with Nephthys and I have held my own against him.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not understand that how you have figured Revan as a motive for my argument in favor of Bane in this thread?

By reading through your other arguments.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Please try to step out from this kind of prejudice.

I'll try.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious taught Maul too. So should this make Maul better then Bane?

Of course not. But we're not playing Six Degrees of Darth Sidious, now are we?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, Bane learned from several Sith holocrons.

I sense that you're trying to make a point, so please make it. Learning from holocrons, besides being irrelevant, doesn't guarantee a victory in any respect. Dooku lost to Anakin, who's never studied any Sith holocrons; Atris lost to the Exile likewise; Maul to Obi-Wan, etc. and so forth.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not recall Vader performing Force Drain either but Bane could. Isn't Vader restricted against offensive Force applications (involving pure dark side energies) in general?

This is a false equivalency. Vader not performing Force drain does not translate to inability to do so. Vader's restrictions prevent him from ever mastering his full potential, but that does not preclude the idea that his mastery exceeds that of other figures.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vader mainly employed Telekinetic Force applications during combat situations.

So do Jedi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If the said Force user is powerful then it becomes an issue. Like it or not, Vader lost lot of power and potential after his injuries on Mustafar. This is how George Lucas promoted him.

Vader losing access to his previous potential isn't in question. The idea that that makes him automatically beneath Bane in Force mastery is.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Convince me.

All of Bane's greatest combat feats can be attributed in part to orbalisks and Force nexuses. Bereft of that, I'm unaware of a single feat ascribed to him that Starkiller has not matched or exceeded.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do not forget that Bane is extremely skilled lightsaber duelist and is very proficient in Force Lightning. Both of these factors can help him against Marek.

Still no point in sight.

jmoul
If TFU games aren't canonical, let me know, but according to the first game Starkiller was able to pull a STAR DESTROYER out of the sky on Raxus Prime. That is a whole hell of a lot bigger than an X-Wing fighter. At the same time, however, Galen never fought an AT-AT, he fought multiple AT-STs at once and still came out unscathed. Again, not sure how canonical the games are for TFU, so please let me know if they aren't.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The_Tempest
By reading through your other arguments.
And where did I mention Revan in this thread?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'll try.
Good.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Of course not. But we're not playing Six Degrees of Darth Sidious, now are we?
Why you brought Sidious' tutoring in the first place? Concede that this was premature on your part.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I sense that you're trying to make a point, so please make it. Learning from holocrons, besides being irrelevant, doesn't guarantee a victory in any respect. Dooku lost to Anakin, who's never studied any Sith holocrons; Atris lost to the Exile likewise; Maul to Obi-Wan, etc. and so forth.
Your examples do not discredit my point. Knowledge is power. The greatest practitioners of the Force also happened to be well-informed or possess great knowledge of Sith or Jedi Lore.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is a false equivalency. Vader not performing Force drain does not translate to inability to do so. Vader's restrictions prevent him from ever mastering his full potential, but that does not preclude the idea that his mastery exceeds that of other figures.
Try to comprehend this statement of mine: "Actually Vader's command of the Force got restricted in practice due to his mechanical parts; he could not use several (dark) offensive Force applications that would have helped his position in combat situations otherwise."

Vader may have known how to perform Force Drain or another application involving pure dark side energies but his mechanical parts prevented/restricted him from doing so.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So do Jedi.
And some defeated Vader.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vader losing access to his previous potential isn't in question. The idea that that makes him automatically beneath Bane in Force mastery is.
His shortcomings are an issue. They cannot be/should not be overlooked.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
All of Bane's greatest combat feats can be attributed in part to orbalisks and Force nexuses. Bereft of that, I'm unaware of a single feat ascribed to him that Starkiller has not matched or exceeded.
I can understand the Orbalisks part but I think that you are giving too much weightage to the impact of dark side nexus on one's ability.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Still no point in sight.
Those talents matter. Bane is more skilled lightsaber duelist then mechanical Vader and is very proficient with Force Lightning. He will be more challenging opponent to Marek then mechanical Vader.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by jmoul
If TFU games aren't canonical, let me know, but according to the first game Starkiller was able to pull a STAR DESTROYER out of the sky on Raxus Prime. That is a whole hell of a lot bigger than an X-Wing fighter.
But it is a feat involving absolute concentration or meditative behavior; something almost impossible to do during combat situation. Otherwise, Marek would have send Vader flying miles away from him with a Force push.

Originally posted by jmoul
At the same time, however, Galen never fought an AT-AT, he fought multiple AT-STs at once and still came out unscathed. Again, not sure how canonical the games are for TFU, so please let me know if they aren't.
Oh yes, it was an AT-ST actually. My bad.

In the novel, Marek managed to down on AT-ST with a Force push. And electrocuted all troops inside with Force lightning.

jmoul
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But it is a feat involving absolute concentration or meditative behavior; something almost impossible to do during combat situation. Otherwise, Marek would have send Vader flying miles away from him with a Force push.

Galen was also in the midst of downing multiple TIE fighters and pulling the Destroyer down before more TIEs showed up. So it was, in a sense, a combat situation.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by jmoul
If TFU games aren't canonical, let me know, but according to the first game Starkiller was able to pull a STAR DESTROYER out of the sky on Raxus Prime.

He didn't pull it out of the sky. It was already falling. He just altered it's direction. Still a pretty Uber feat though.

The_Tempest
Who says a prejudice has to manifest in every thread for you to have it?



facepalm

It was a joke. I was accusing you of defending Bane by virtue of his closer, direct connection to Revan compared to Vader's distant connection.



You haven't made a point to discredit.



As a native English speaker, odds are that I comprehend your sentence to a greater degree than you do. The only restriction you can conclusively name is Vader's inability to cast Force lightning. When you have more, let me know. Until then, it's irrelevant.



Still not a point in sight, minus the one that you didn't intend to make:

The idea that some Jedi (which ones, by the way?) can overcome Vader with a limited repertoire of abilities only furthers my argument that one does not need a wide range of powers to win a given fight.



If his shortcomings were a decisive disadvantage, Vader would lose every fight he's been in. The burden is on you to determine that his injuries put him at a disadvantage with Bane.



What you think is irrelevant. Force nexuses enhance the available power of a Force user, which means that Bane cannot be said to produce such an effect elsewhere unless he's actually been shown to do so.



Prove it.



This is again a false equivalency. Marek battled Shadow Guards, who were capable of using Force lightning in contrast to Vader, yet they weren't more challenging because of this fact. The ability to cast Force lightning does not make one a greater challenge than Vader.

Keep your next post on topic if you'd like a response.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Does it?

Did I motherfvcking stutter? Yes, b*tch, yes it does.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It isn't. I use Vader as an example to that superior Force mastery alone is insufficient to guarantee or even make probable victory against Marek unless that superiority is proven to be substantial.

And the very fact that it is substantial is why I said it was a false comparison. You stupid prick!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Have they?

I've already said that they have and why. English motherfvcker, do you speak it?!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This one person in particular is a Force user who, by comparison of feats, is much more powerful than Bane or anyone Bane's ever crossed. That said, I recall the narration noting more than once that the boost afforded by the orbalisks was extreme. I can't assign a specific value to it, of course, but we have no means of determining either way.

Listen you excretable pile of EXCREMENT! Marek is not much more fvcking powerful than Bane and you fvcking know it. Marek has difficulty overpowering Vader, and Vader is not more powerful than Bane is, fvcktard. And show me the quote that says that the boost is extreme motherfvcker, cuz I ain't never seen that fvcking thing. Either way, it is grossly disingenuous (you fvck!) to suggest that because we're unsure that the feat is out. Common sense and fvcking logic dictate that the chance that Bane cannot replicate the feat on a smaller scale without the orbalisks is astronomically small. Besides which, its fvcking obvious that disintegration is a skill reliant on mastery, not power, which is the only fvcking thing the orbalisks give Bane. Raw power can't separate a beings individual particles, dat shit takes motherfvcking skill motherfvcker!

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120116161416/mspaintadventures/images/d/dc/Karkat_f_bombs_and_computer_smacks.gif

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Isn't the nexus sealed in a lake or something?

That didn't stop Zannah from making use of it in her battle with Bane.

I never miscalculate, worm. ninja

The_Tempest
Leave the Pulp Fiction references to Tzeentch. You're not black enough, son.

In order:

no

no

yes I speak it but no

no, Marek is much more powerful than Bane and if disintegration is based on mastery, Marek's mastery eclipses Bane's: since the objects he's disintegrated are much larger. (you miscalculated lolz)

you'll get the excerpt/s in due time

when and how

Nephthys
Originally posted by jmoul
If TFU games aren't canonical, let me know, but according to the first game Starkiller was able to pull a STAR DESTROYER out of the sky on Raxus Prime. That is a whole hell of a lot bigger than an X-Wing fighter. At the same time, however, Galen never fought an AT-AT, he fought multiple AT-STs at once and still came out unscathed. Again, not sure how canonical the games are for TFU, so please let me know if they aren't.

Nope it was an AT-AT:

'Automated weapons emplacements spotted him instantly. Red weapons fire stitched lines of explosions across the station's patchwork hull as he ducked between the AT-AT's massive legs. Scooping up components from the nearest construction conveyor belt, he threw a series of high-speed missiles at the turrets, knocking five out of commission. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.'

The_Tempest
God, those books (especially TFU1) were bad. Like Karpyshyn-level bad.

Nephthys
We can only hope that was a Force Push. If Marek just shoved an AT-AT over I'm out.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
when and how

In her battle with Bane. Her Naughty Tantacles attack bro.

jmoul
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He didn't pull it out of the sky. It was already falling. He just altered it's direction. Still a pretty Uber feat though.

Actually it was flying toward him, but stopped at optimal range and launching distance for TIEs. It was from the point where it stopped that Galen pulled it down to the planet, so it wasn't actually falling out of the sky

The_Tempest
I believe it's fair to assume telekinesis is the method by which this was achieved.



Didn't she break them out first or something?



God, those books (especially RoT and DoE) were bad. Like Karpyshyn-level bad.

Originally posted by jmoul
Actually it was flying toward him, but stopped at optimal range and launching distance for TIEs. It was from the point where it stopped that Galen pulled it down to the planet, so it wasn't actually falling out of the sky

Do you have a source for that?

Nephthys
I thought the whole reason he redirected it was so that it didn't crash-land on his head. It started to fall after he took out the shipyard.

Edit: Break what out first?

The_Tempest
The energies, I thought they were locked in the lake.

Nephthys
Nope, pretty sure she rips it out of the soil.

Even if it did, if she could instantly access the energy in the midst of battle, then I don't see why Bane couldn't.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nope, pretty sure she rips it out of the soil.

Even if it did, if she could instantly access the energy in the midst of battle, then I don't see why Bane couldn't.

Yup, she did access power from the soil. But hilariously, the text does confirm the energies were trapped in the lake.

Either Karpyshyn's a retard or the energies were released and you've forgotten and/or neglected to tell me.

Nephthys
'Again she opened herself up to the dark side. This time, however, she didn't attack Bane directly. Instead, she let it flow through her, drawing it from the soil and stone of Ambria itself. She called to power buried for centuries, summoning it up to the surface in wispy tendrils of dark smoke snaking up from the sand.

The thin tendrils crawled along the ground, reaching for one another, twining themselves together into writhing tentacles each several meters long.

Then, in response to her unspoken command, the tentacles rose up and lashed out at her foe.'

I'm pretty sure thats all it said.

I dunno, maybe they released it when Bane was training her on Ambria, or its mentioned earlier in the book somewhere.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
'Again she opened herself up to the dark side. This time, however, she didn't attack Bane directly. Instead, she let it flow through her, drawing it from the soil and stone of Ambria itself. She called to power buried for centuries, summoning it up to the surface in wispy tendrils of dark smoke snaking up from the sand.

The thin tendrils crawled along the ground, reaching for one another, twining themselves together into writhing tentacles each several meters long.

Then, in response to her unspoken command, the tentacles rose up and lashed out at her foe.'

I'm pretty sure thats all it said.

I dunno, maybe they released it when Bane was training her on Ambria, or its mentioned earlier in the book somewhere.

Yeah, it just seems to be a contradiction. Maybe Thon didn't snare all the energies?

Nephthys
Point is, Bane has access to a darkside nexus bitches! I always know what I'm talking about, fvckass!

The_Tempest
Starkiller would have access to it too. :3 And since you've noted that Marek is more powerful and more masterful than Bane, his victory is assured.

Nephthys
Marek is a lightsider last I checked. Unless we're talking about Sith Apprentice Marek, in which case he loses most of his good feats.

And I've noted no such thing jerkface.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Marek is a lightsider last I checked.

According to?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unless we're talking about Sith Apprentice Marek, in which case he loses most of his good feats.

And why would that be?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I've noted no such thing jerkface.

Sure you have. You noted disintegration was a demonstration of mastery; at best, Bane w/ orbalisks disintegrated a dozen random mooks whereas Starkiller disintegrated a capital ship. Clearly he enjoys a tremendous advantage in mastery.

The_Tempest
Also,



:3

jmoul
Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought the whole reason he redirected it was so that it didn't crash-land on his head. It started to fall after he took out the shipyard.

Edit: Break what out first?

No it wasn't the only reason. I am one massive fan of TFU and I remember that the reason he pulled it down was because, in order to escape Raxus Prime along with Kota and Juno and thus rally the Rebellion, he had to stay alive. In the game, he said that the Star Destroyer was heading right for him and he needed to get out of the area. Kota told him to pull it into the planet's surface to be able to escape safely and officially start the Rebellion.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to?

And why would that be?

Sure you have. You noted disintegration was a demonstration of mastery; at best, Bane w/ orbalisks disintegrated a dozen random mooks whereas Starkiller disintegrated a capital ship. Clearly he enjoys a tremendous advantage in mastery.

The fact that he clearly rejects the darkside at the end of the game, probable way before that tbh.

Because he hasn't performed them at that time?

Starkiller never disintegrated a capital ship.

Nice catch on that quote.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
The fact that he clearly rejects the darkside at the end of the game, probable way before that tbh.

This is pretty weak. There's no evidence to suggest that Marek's power fluctuated because of alignment, considering that he used the Force the same way throughout the novel/s, including constant use of Force lightning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he hasn't performed them at that time?

Just like how Bane didn't perform disintegration feats without orbalisks or dark side nexuses, so he can't perform them without those things?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Starkiller never disintegrated a capital ship.

TFU2, he disintegrated a Nebulon-B frigate.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nice catch on that quote.

:3

My victory is inevitable.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is pretty weak. There's no evidence to suggest that Marek's power fluctuated because of alignment, considering that he used the Force the same way throughout the novel/s, including constant use of Force lightning.



Just like how Bane didn't perform disintegration feats without orbalisks or dark side nexuses, so he can't perform them without those things?



TFU2, he disintegrated a Nebulon-B frigate.

I never said that it did fluctuate, but if you must know, in the novel Marek was losing to Vader until a sense of clarity and calm descended upon him, whereupon he kicked his ass. Its also possible to use Force Lightning without being darkside, Luke and Mara did, and so did Jolee Bindo.

No, completely different than that. In that case Bane has the feat, it is simply a matter of logically deducing its place in the absence of those things. In this case Marek hasn't performed the feats yet. And most of them were done by a clone. He hasn't done them.

That was a clone. The threadstarter refered to Starkiller as 'the one who broke the Rule of Two', meaning the first one who was Vaders secret apprentice. And he didn't do that to the whole ship, it specifies repeatedly that he does it to 'the last solid fragment' of the ship. The thing was obviously breaking apart and practically dismantled already.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
I never said that it did fluctuate,

Excellent.

Originally posted by Nephthys
but if you must know, in the novel Marek was losing to Vader until a sense of clarity and calm descended upon him, whereupon he kicked his ass. Its also possible to use Force Lightning without being darkside, Luke and Mara did, and so did Jolee Bindo.

Your point? Vaapad requires Mace Windu to succumb to the thrill and rush of combat, it doesn't make him any less of a Jedi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, completely different than that. In that case Bane has the feat, it is simply a matter of logically deducing its place in the absence of those things. In this case Marek hasn't performed the feats yet.

But you do not claim that his powers fluctuated. So if there is no difference between a light side/dark side Marek, then there's no reason to assume he can't use such powers. It's as though you're arguing Dooku can't use Force lightning until the Battle of Geonosis instead of, say, the beginning of the film because he hasn't displayed the power until that exact time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And most of them were done by a clone. He hasn't done them.

Who says it was a clone?

Originally posted by Nephthys
That was a clone.

According to whom?

Originally posted by Nephthys
The threadstarter refered to Starkiller as 'the one who broke the Rule of Two', meaning the first one who was Vaders secret apprentice.

Technically, both broke the Rule of Two, as Vader trained the Starkiller in the sequel to be his apprentice as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And he didn't do that to the whole ship, it specifies repeatedly that he does it to 'the last solid fragment' of the ship. The thing was obviously breaking apart and practically dismantled already.

Which was still a great deal more than Bane has ever disintegrated, especially unaided.

The_Tempest
I think I'm done for the night, but the reason I ask about Marek's potential clone status is that I remember project director Hayden Blackman saying that it was going to be the central ambiguous issue of the game: were you a clone or were you Starkiller reincarnated? The recently-released Essential Reader's Companion leaves it on a similar note of ambiguity. So a direct confirmation either way would be greatly appreciated.

Anyway, I'm officially casting my vote in favor of Marek. While he may not possess Bane's skills with a lightsaber, he's substantially more powerful in the Force and demonstrably more masterful with it as well. (The feat with the Salvation is just incredible: erecting Force shields to withstand the ferocious heat and raindrops hitting with the force of thermal detonators while simultaneously rooting himself to the ship, not to mention holding the frigate together for much of its final journey, then the final act of disintegrating it on a dime? Unbelievable.) Without his orbalisks and exclusive access to a dark side nexus, Bane is just hopelessly outmatched in the Force.

This was a good debate, though.

jmoul
Agreed Tempest, but something tells me people will keep trying to continue it.

Ascendancy
I don't know if I agree with you in the substantially more powerful quote. More raw power? Yes. More prowess in directing destructive power in combat? No. Unless both are going to go Super Saiyan and unleash everything that they have at a distance with no worry for destroying themselves in the process I give it to Bane.

For all the raw strength Galen may have had it wasn't enough to take down either Vader or the Emperor permanently. As Neph said in regards to ability, Bane may have been near a source of darkside energy to maintain some of his attacks, but he would certainly be able to manage them without the nexus as well. If not, then there are a lot of things Sidious should have never been able to pull of in normal situations either.

I'll be glad to give Marek more credence with some examples of him killing Dark Lords or Jedi Masters of top tier power.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Ascendancy
I don't know if I agree with you in the substantially more powerful quote.

You don't have to, but it doesn't make it any less true.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
More raw power? Yes. More prowess in directing destructive power in combat? No. Unless both are going to go Super Saiyan and unleash everything that they have at a distance with no worry for destroying themselves in the process I give it to Bane.

Given that this is typically how Marek fights, power over finesse, I'm not sure you have a point. Where is the risk of Marek destroying himself?

Originally posted by Ascendancy
For all the raw strength Galen may have had it wasn't enough to take down either Vader or the Emperor permanently.

As Bane is neither Vader nor the Emperor, this is less of a rebuttal than it is a reflection of the obvious. Sidious is confirmed by canon to be more powerful than Bane as far back as The Phantom Menace and Vader, at the very least, has the feats and showings to rival Bane.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
As Neph said in regards to ability, Bane may have been near a source of darkside energy to maintain some of his attacks, but he would certainly be able to manage them without the nexus as well.

There is no evidence for this.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
If not, then there are a lot of things Sidious should have never been able to pull of in normal situations either.

Which is why I cheerfully volunteered the idea that Sidious is unable to replicate feats attained on dark side nexuses. Of course, it's a paltry concession for me to make, given the significant advantage Sidious enjoys in terms of exposure. He still has countless notable feats for any debater to draw from. Bane, on the other hand, does not benefit from such a lofty position.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I'll be glad to give Marek more credence with some examples of him killing Dark Lords or Jedi Masters of top tier power.

How much credence you decide to give Marek is inconsequential; you confess openly to "riding" his "cajones" and have made no attempt to conceal your inclination. The bottom line is that the majority of Bane's highest showings derive from dark side nexuses and orbalisks, each of which enhance his power considerably per the text. Marek's abilities exceed Bane's by a substantial degree in all but swordsmanship.

With respect to the caliber of his enemies, Marek has fought and bested Shaak Ti, a prolific swordsman and Council Master, as well as Kazdan Paratus, who was capable of destroying "entire legions" of Confederacy droids in single combat (per TFU's in-game databank), not to mention Vader himself, whose feats eclipse Bane's own.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Who says a prejudice has to manifest in every thread for you to have it?
I did not argue for Bane on the basis of my liking for Revan. The latter was never factored-in.

In short: you made a premature judgement about my intentions.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

It was a joke. I was accusing you of defending Bane by virtue of his closer, direct connection to Revan compared to Vader's distant connection.
You are subtle like a Sith Lord when it comes to jokes. confused

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You haven't made a point to discredit.
Holocrons are actually teaching devices and can contain knowledge of unknown or forgotten Force applications/powers. Knowledge acquired from such devices would be beneficial to a Force-wielder and enhance his/her understanding of the Force. Now obviously it is up to the Force-wielder to acquire proficiency in the newly learn't applications of the Force to gain higher Force Mastery.

In the nutshell, a holocron can pave way for greater understanding of the Force, which in turn, can positively influence the combat ability of a Force-wielder but the whole process takes time. This process entirely depends upon what kind of knowledge is contained in a holocron; if the knowledge contained in a holocron is about combat applications then it will definitely help a Force-wielder who had no knowledge of such combat applications previously.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
As a native English speaker, odds are that I comprehend your sentence to a greater degree than you do. The only restriction you can conclusively name is Vader's inability to cast Force lightning. When you have more, let me know. Until then, it's irrelevant.
Now provide examples of Vader employing other forms of Force applications involving pure dark side energies. Otherwise, your claim have no merit.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Still not a point in sight, minus the one that you didn't intend to make:

The idea that some Jedi (which ones, by the way?) can overcome Vader with a limited repertoire of abilities only furthers my argument that one does not need a wide range of powers to win a given fight.
1. You think that Obi-Wan's command of the Force was lesser then that of Vader when he defeated him on Mustafar?

Similarly;

2. You think that Marek's command of the Force was lesser then that of Vader when he defeated him on Death Star I?

Please ponder over your fallacies.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If his shortcomings were a decisive disadvantage, Vader would lose every fight he's been in. The burden is on you to determine that his injuries put him at a disadvantage with Bane.
No! Vader wouldn't loose to 'every individual' in combat because strengths and weaknesses vary from individual to individual.

If Vader faces an opponent who cannot exploit his weaknesses then the former has good chance to win.

However, Vader is certainly disadvantaged when pitted against someone like Bane. Chances are good for Bane to subdue Vader with his lightsaber combat skills or his proficiency in Force Lightning.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
What you think is irrelevant. Force nexuses enhance the available power of a Force user, which means that Bane cannot be said to produce such an effect elsewhere unless he's actually been shown to do so.
By default, Force nexus makes it possible for a Force-wielder to draw upon it and not run out of his/her energy reserves easily. In other words, a Force-wielder is more difficult to wear down or overcome in a Force nexus.

However, the extent of benefits acquired from a Force nexus seem to be dependent upon how a Force-wielder manages to exploit/utilize it. Force-wielders with knowledge of sorcery can reap greater benefits from a Force nexus but this may often require some level of preparation. Malak, on the basis of his knowledge of Sith Sorcery and Star Forge's technology, managed to ensure much greater supply of reserves of energies for him to draw upon should the need arise. Zannah, on the basis of her knowledge of Sith Sorcery, managed to use the dark side Force nexus on Ambria to summon tendrils that would ultimately grant her advantage over Bane in combat.

However, Force nexus by itself doesn't transforms a Force-wielder in to Force God or something as previously pointed out by me. Otherwise, Dooku would have killed Yoda on Vjun and Malak would have killed Revan on Star Forge. So their are numerous examples that affirm this point.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Prove it.
Bane held his own against one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in history; Kas'im. Not good enough? Bane could prevent rain droplets from touching him with his blade-work.

Now prove that mechanical Vader was fast, agile and skilled enough to match Bane's prowess in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is again a false equivalency. Marek battled Shadow Guards, who were capable of using Force lightning in contrast to Vader, yet they weren't more challenging because of this fact. The ability to cast Force lightning does not make one a greater challenge than Vader.
Proficiency is the key word in my point. You think that Shadow Guards match Bane's proficiency in Force Lightning?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Keep your next post on topic if you'd like a response.
So you plan to chicken out?

"Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering."

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by The_Tempest
(The feat with the Salvation is just incredible: erecting Force shields to withstand the ferocious heat and raindrops hitting with the force of thermal detonators while simultaneously rooting himself to the ship, not to mention holding the frigate together for much of its final journey, then the final act of disintegrating it on a dime? Unbelievable.)

That was a completely insane feat.

But my problem is after all that he couldn't beat Vader. I mean WTF?!

Nephthys
He did beat Vader though.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
He did beat Vader though.

By pretending to surrender, then shooting Lightning where Juno had made a little scar.

In combat they were equal. Talking about TFUII.

Arhael
Feats of Bane and Marek can't be adequatly compared.

In Karpyshyn books even a 6 year old children before getting any Force training can vaporize human hands, dominate adult Sith Lords or drive insane two Jedi. So there is nothing surprizing that Bane's power is portrayed so destructive. Such things didn't happen in films and all other book authors follow the same logic. The only known example was pointed out by Nephtys, which comes from DE - another source with heavily exagerated feats. But in books Luke that dismanteled droid army in DE with wave of hand over 10 years later struggled a lot against single droideka and managed to destroy it only with help of Mara.

Also, only in Karpyshyn books a Force user can get exhausted from a single instant Force attack like Bane. In books of other authors Force users can get exhausted only by chanelling Force. Moreover, Bane's super powerful attack was completely blocked by K'azim. In comparison Yoda using only friction of his power successfuly Force blasted Sidious. If we compare literally, assumption that a semi-powerful Sith has better Force defenses than Sidious with his immense potential and far superior Mastery of the Force is outright absurd.

The only way to make realistic comparison is by analyzing quality of training.

Bane started training in adult age, which allowed him to master combat and Force mastery much faster. Marek's training was from childhood but for longer period. Both drilled combat for very long time, so it is imposible to say which one is more skilled.
Bane fought with Kazim that could be compared to Dooku and couldn't outskill him.
Marek fought Vader and couldn't outskill him either until he managed to take psycholigical advantage.

In Force don't know about Bane but Marek demonstrated skill even above Dooku. While Marek has got far more power, the only advantage he will get is larger Force reserves.

I bet on Marek but it would be a good fight.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
By pretending to surrender, then shooting Lightning where Juno had made a little scar.

In combat they were equal. Talking about TFUII.

That's not exactly accurate: Starkiller would have kept fighting had Vader not held Juno hostage and forced him to stand down. It's not as though exploiting Juno's actions were his only recourse. Hell, in the video game (and maybe the graphic novel) that's not how the duel ends anyway.

Vader definitely held his own against Marek, though.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Excellent.

Although given that he can only defeat Vader after he gains clarity and embraces the lightside, I wouldn't ignore the probability of it being true.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your point? Vaapad requires Mace Windu to succumb to the thrill and rush of combat, it doesn't make him any less of a Jedi.

Oh come on, could that be anymore of a false comparison?! Vaapad is a specially designed technique that he uses so that he can feel that feel that way and not fall. Plus, all the other Vaapad users fell to the darkside, remember? With Galen he obviously turned away from the darkside. No special technique was used, he simply gave up his anger at Vader and became calm. Its blatantly trying to parallel the ending of RotJ imo.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But you do not claim that his powers fluctuated. So if there is no difference between a light side/dark side Marek, then there's no reason to assume he can't use such powers.

When did I say that he couldn't? We are talking to what feats he has access to. The matter of his alignment became irrelevent when you pointed out that Ambria is a nexus for both the light and dark sides.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's as though you're arguing Dooku can't use Force lightning until the Battle of Geonosis instead of, say, the beginning of the film because he hasn't displayed the power until that exact time.

I would never be so disingenuous to argue that any well-trained Sith couldn't use Force Lightning since its a standard part of their powerset (although we've yet to see it from Maul oddly enough). You are correct though in that I would ignore that feat and not use it to determine Dooku's skill with Force Lightning.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Who says it was a clone?

In the Dark Thunder cinematics that you unlock in the game you can see Vader showing the original Galen Mareks corpse to the Dark Apprentice:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101028115539/starwars/images/thumb/d/de/Galen_Marek%27s_dead_body.png/250px-Galen_Marek%27s_dead_body.png

Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to whom?

Me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Technically, both broke the Rule of Two, as Vader trained the Starkiller in the sequel to be his apprentice as well.

He was never the true apprentice in the sequel though, the Dark Apprentice was.

Anyway, perhaps we should ask the threadstarter which Starkiller this is.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which was still a great deal more than Bane has ever disintegrated, especially unaided.

Lol. Ok, firstly we don't know the size of the fragment that Galen destroyed so we can't actually say that.

Secondly, 'unaided?' And Galen wasn't aided in his task? The ship was falling apart already and the text notes that 'The stricken ship was glowing red, with the last shreds of plasma still clinging to it like flames.' Metal gets softer when heated numbnuts.

And thirdly, the part where it says that he 'blew it into a billion pieces' is obviously hyperbole. You've never heard of something 'exploding into a million pieces' before? Juno observes afterwards that 'A cloud of hot metallic fragments was spreading across the city. Dense splinters rained from it, hissing where they landed. Heavier fragments struck with more substantial thuds, near and far.' She also observes at the time that 'the Salivation exploded into fiery pieces.' Obviously, he did not disintegrate it, but rather used the Force to blow it up.

3 strikes and you're out. Good game though, that almost had me worried.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vader himself, whose feats eclipse Bane's own.

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

Imma break my foot off in yo narrow ass.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's not exactly accurate: Starkiller would have kept fighting had Vader not held Juno hostage and forced him to stand down. It's not as though exploiting Juno's actions were his only recourse. Hell, in the video game (and maybe the graphic novel) that's not how the duel ends anyway.

Yes the Juno factor was clearly present in the fight. Marek was trying to get to her while he was fighting Vader.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vader definitely held his own against Marek, though.

This is my issue. With the insane feats you pointed out it's hard to fathom how it was such a competitive fight.

I know Vader is powerful, but those feats of Stakiller's were among the greatest (most insane) in the whole saga.

Originally posted by Nephthys

In the Dark Thunder cinematics that you unlock in the game you can see Vader showing the original Galen Mareks corpse to the Dark Apprentice:



Makes no sense. Why didn't Vader just clone himself instead then?!

Nephthys
Why would he clone himself? The clone would easily eclipse him in power with its Chosen Oneness. He's a moron for even trying with Marek.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
The clone would easily eclipse him in power with its Chosen Oneness.

That never seemed to bother him. He wanted Marek/Luke for their potential to be more powerful than him, and overthrow the Emporer with/for him.

He would just try to Psychologically control them.

Darth Truculent
Dark Apprentice is not canon.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Dark Apprentice is not canon.

The story was a possible future based on Starkiller's choices. He actually saw visions of it. Which means certain things about that story must be true even in the correct continuity.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
And thirdly, the part where it says that he 'blew it into a billion pieces' is obviously hyperbole.

And Bane disintegrating the techno-beasts isn't?

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the Dark Thunder cinematics that you unlock in the game you can see Vader showing the original Galen Mareks corpse to the Dark Apprentice:

In all honesty, I thought that those suggested the guy in the second game was the original. That picture simply shows Starkiller in stasis not his corpse and that's what the Dark Starkiller's "I understand now" is about...

Not that it matters. Until we have actual canonical evidence I'd suggest we say the characters are different.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Makes no sense. Why didn't Vader just clone himself instead then?!

Yeah it's pretty dumb. Hell, he could even clone replacement parts for himself and become whole again.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
And Bane disintegrating the techno-beasts isn't?

It specifically uses the word 'disintegrate', so no.

DARTH POWER
^ Ok so maybe it was a million pieces. Whatever. Point is he blew up the whole ship into tiny pieces with a thought.

Nephthys
It wasn't the whole ship, the ship was already falling apart and was being superheated. And It was likely not close to a million given the size of some of them.

Arhael
Originally posted by ares834
Yeah it's pretty dumb. Hell, he could even clone replacement parts for himself and become whole again.
No, he couldn't. In SW such operation is impossible, not after lightsaber burns at least.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
It specifically uses the word 'disintegrate', so no.

So because it uses the word "disintegrate" it can't be hyperbole? That doesn't make any sense to me. Anyway, when an object is disintegrated that doesn't require it to be broken up at a molecular level, merely broken up into parts.


Originally posted by Arhael
No, he couldn't. In SW such operation is impossible, not after lightsaber burns at least.

Where is this from? Sure, it may be impossible to graft directly to the burn but one could remove more flesh and remove the burn.

Also, I'm fairly certain clonetroopers use clone replacement parts.

jmoul
Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyway, perhaps we should ask the threadstarter which Starkiller this is.

I was referring to the original Starkiller, not any of the clones.

Nephthys
Cool, thanks. thumb up

jmoul
No problem.

The_Tempest
It's not a false comparison. Vaapad enables its users to skirt the dark side; the fact that Sora and Depa failed to master it is only proof of the dark side's lure. The fact remains that combat aggression is not exclusive to dark siders. Luke was in the very throes of battle rage when he fought Caedus and Lumiya but did not fall to the dark side. Similarly, Dooku is a Lord of the Sith and does not exhibit the same sort of combat rage demonstrated elsewhere by Maul and Sidious. Additionally, Anakin was possessed of calm and clarity when slaying Dooku, but that doesn't mean it's a "lightside" or "Jedi" act.

Trying to ascribe conclusive Force alignment to instances of aggression is a futile effort when we have examples of Jedi and Sith behaving in combat contrary to what is expected of them.



Who's to say that it's the original's corpse? Vader had access to countless "Starkiller" bodies. Given his tendency to lie throughout both games, this could very well be a massive gambit.

Of course, the only reason I'm saying this is because of the continued ambiguity on the subject. I do not inherently object to the idea of Marek the Second literally being Marek the Second.



If you're looking for precise dimensions, sure. But if you're looking for a general assessment, no. According to the text, it was the first half ("fore"wink of a Nebulon-B frigate, which by my calculations is a great deal more than a dozen or so technobeasts.



That the ship retained most of its structural integrity (it only separated due to the relatively flimsy spine joining the fore and aft sections). The forces acting on the dying ship certainly weren't sufficient to reduce it to its constituent parts by the time it hit the facility until Marek destroyed it himself.



Disintegrate simply means to break up into parts. You're confusing the term with atomize, foo'. By definition, what Starkiller did qualifies as disintegration. The feat with the Salvation is in vast excess of what Bane has ever demonstrated unaided. Starkiller is simply on a whole 'nother level.



Your defeat was inevitable.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by jmoul
I was referring to the original Starkiller, not any of the clones.

So we're not talking about the so-called Dark Apprentice or the zombified hordes Vader unleashed against Starkiller in TFU2. But what about the Starkiller in TFU2?

jmoul
Until that Starkiller is shown to be either the real one or a clone, we should stick with the one in TFU I

The_Tempest
Originally posted by jmoul
Until that Starkiller is shown to be either the real one or a clone, we should stick with the one in TFU I

Very good.

DARTH POWER
I personally think his feats should count. Even if TFUII Starkiller was a clone, I really don't see how he could be more powerful than the Original. And his fight with Vader suggests he really wasn't.

jmoul
As the thread starter I am asking that we keep it to the Starkiller from TFU I.

Nephthys
I'm 0kay with that.

Quit whining people.

DARTH POWER
Lol

Was just giving an opinion.

Mizukage Yoda
^I agree with Power on this one. I seriously doubt Starkiller II is stronger than the original. His feats should apply via powerscaling.

The Ellimist
how can Starkiller dodge the lightning?

Syndicate
I didn't know this thread existed...

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