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Who wins how and why?

Close fight from what we've seen recently...

Ock imho

Is Lizard intelligent or running on instinct?

Lizard. Too fast and ferocious for Ock. He's not going to be holding back like Peter. One good swipe against Oct's flesh is enough.

Ock has a carbonadium tank protecting his body.

Originally posted by Glorificus
Lizard. Too fast and ferocious for Ock. He's not going to be holding back like Peter. One good swipe against Oct's flesh is enough. I totaly agree with that.

Ock has taken Spider-Man, Hulk, and Iron Man.
Lizard has no ranged weapons to nullify the doctor's reach advantage and nothing he can do once caught by one or more tentacles.
Ock has demonstrated the speed to deflect bullets from a machine gun, and Lizard lacks any of Spider-man's subtlety; it's not realistic to think he'll get caught by Lizard if he's squared off against him in a formal fight.

Only chance I see for Connors is if Octopus is surprised by the Lizard's strength level enough for him to be thrown off-balance, or, if by some miracle, Lizard proves strong enough to break one of those mechanical arms. Given that, again, Ock's tentacles have proven strong enough to hold the Hulk (they'd been re-designed and replaced with more durable alloys since Ock's original debut) that doesn't seem likely.

Ock wins 8/10.

When he fought the Hulk, he had the adamantium harness. That's not his standard equipment.

Parker broke his tentacles more than once (even recently) and Lizard is three times stronger than him.

--
Originally posted by CrazyDave
I totaly agree with that.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Ock has a carbonadium tank protecting his body.

Ock

Originally posted by Digi
Ock You are specist against reptiles! sneer

Originally posted by Badabing
You are specist against reptiles! sneer

And I know my Spidey villains. But I do hate the lizard-people as well.

fdog

Does Bada own a pet iguana or something?

I'm starting to think he does.


( Certainly looks like the type ...)

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Close fight from what we've seen recently... Wait, what? did they actually do it in one of the comcis?

Yes.

Originally posted by SamZED
Not much to see really. Ock attacked Lizard but most of it went off-panel. We dont get to see the winner.

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/6761/asm6460016.jpghttp://img821.imageshack.us/img821/7554/asm6460017.jpg

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Does Bada own a pet iguana or something?

I'm starting to think he does.


( Certainly looks like the type ...) he's the admin's pet iquana

Yeah doesn't Lizard also have pheromones and some sort of psychic powers?

Like with Aquaman and the fish part of people's brains, Lizard has some sort of sway over the reptilian part of brains.

Yeah, he does (as shown in sam's scans). Ock seemed to be doing a good job resisting it, though.

Originally posted by Digi
And I know my Spidey villains. But I do hate the lizard-people as well.

fdog ohno

ahuh

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Ock has taken Spider-Man, Hulk, and Iron Man.
Lizard has no ranged weapons to nullify the doctor's reach advantage and nothing he can do once caught by one or more tentacles.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider


That's adamantium harness, it's NOT his standard equipment.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
That's adamantium harness, it's NOT his standard equipment.


That may or may not be; truthfully, I do not know WHAT Ock's current set of arms are made of, though at least one source tells me carbonadium, which would be the same material Omega Red's durable tentacles are made of.

It wasn't the point either way, as someone on the previous page already showed Ock in a recent encounter fighting against the Lizard in whatever it is he has now.

My point was only that, once caught, no opponent without some sort of ranged attack has realistic hope of beating Ock.

Spider-man, in the first fight against Doctor Octopus that I ever saw, immediately lost to Otto when grabbed by all 4 limbs. In fact, thinking the Spider-man he had caught was a "battlebot" he'd designed to practice for the real thing, Ock was about to rip Pete apart.
Fortunately, before this time, Ock had suffered a near complete mental breakdown. He had a genuine extreme phobia of Spider-man and so completely shut down when he heard Spider-man speak to him asking him NOT to tear him apart, realizing he had not given his robot audio capability, and that he must actually be facing the real thing.
(Web of Spider-Man #4)

Earlier, of course, in their very first encounter, Spider-man lost when Ock got Pete in that same situation. Ock simply slapped Pete half unconcious and tossed him out the window. (Amazing Spider-man #3)

Here, of course, you saw the same thing happen to Hulk.

Even Iron Man suffered that fate once grabbed, as I posted in another thread a few minutes ago. Note that I also made the point there that Ock actually keeps spare harnesses around, and can control these just as he controls whatever current set he happens to be wearing.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14086417

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
That may or may not be;



It's NOT. He only used it during one story arc (against Sinister Six, Spider-Man and Hulk) and in Peter Allen David's Hulk comic when he got stomped in a rematch with Banner.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
truthfully, I do not know WHAT Ock's current set of arms are made of, though at least one source tells me carbonadium, which would be the same material Omega Red's durable tentacles are made of.

Peter wouldn't be able to break carbonadium arms, pretty sure only his armor was made out of that metal.

Most harnesses are titanium.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It wasn't the point either way, as someone on the previous page already showed Ock in a recent encounter fighting against the Lizard in whatever it is he has now.

Yeah, it was me.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
My point was only that, once caught, no opponent without some sort of ranged attack has realistic hope of beating Ock.

Not really...

Lizard has tp and his tail, he was using both in his fight with Ock and stalemated him from what we've seen on-panel.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Spider-man, in the first fight against Doctor Octopus that I ever saw, immediately lost to Otto when grabbed by all 4 limbs. In fact, thinking the Spider-man he had caught was a "battlebot" he'd designed to practice for the real thing, Ock was about to rip Pete apart.
Fortunately, before this time, Ock had suffered a near complete mental breakdown. He had a genuine extreme phobia of Spider-man and so completely shut down when he heard Spider-man speak to him asking him NOT to tear him apart, realizing he had not given his robot audio capability, and that he must actually be facing the real thing.
(Web of Spider-Man #4)

Earlier, of course, in their very first encounter, Spider-man lost when Ock got Pete in that same situation. Ock simply slapped Pete half unconcious and tossed him out the window. (Amazing Spider-man #3)

Aaaand in more recent comics (Spectacular Spider-Man and Ends of the Earth event) he has simply broken Ock's tentacles when he got caught...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Here, of course, you saw the same thing happen to Hulk.

I don't get why you keep using that showing - it's useless unless the thread started specified the adamantium tentacles for Otto.

Hulk humiliated him in a rematch anyway...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


only used during one story arc (against Sinister Six, Spider-Man and Hulk) and in Peter Allen David's Hulk comic when he got stomped in a rematch with Banner.


'Kay.


Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


Peter wouldn't be able to break carbonadium arms, pretty sure only his armor was made out of that metal.

Most harnesses are titanium.



'Kay.



Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


it was me



Thank you for your scans.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

Lizard has tp and his tail, he was using both in his fight with Ock and stalemated him from what we've seen on-panel.



You're not telling me that Lizard without a ranged attack wins, then.
You're telling me instead that Lizard HAS a ranged attack (telepathy).

You're not actually contradicting what I'm saying.



Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

in more recent comics (Spectacular Spider-Man and Ends of the Earth event) he has simply broken Ock's tentacles when he got caught...


News to me. Never seen Pete able to break an arm in battle before, save for an instance many years ago where he was able to plant himself using his clinging ability, uproot Ock from his position, and whirl him around at high speed till shearing force made that tentacle break.

It was some story where a felon named "Jimbo Ryan" offed a G-man, if memory serves ...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

I don't get why you keep using that showing

Hulk is stronger and tougher than the Lizard.

The version of Hulk, Professor Hulk, that Doctor Octopus fought in that showing,
was arguably smarter and a better strategist than Lizard, too.

He's even GREEN, for cryin' out loud.


Who better to show for a Lizard fight stand-in ?



Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

Hulk humiliated him in a rematch anyway...

Hulk thunderclapped and disoriented Ock. Then used his strength while Ock was off-balance to pull Ock in close and strike before Ock could react.


Lizard can't thunderclap.
Lizard isn't as strong as Hulk.

Ock's fast enough to deflect bullets and is expecting trouble from the Lizard, knowing he is fast and vicious.

Exactly what do you think Lizard is going to DO to Ock to echo the Hulk/Octopus Las Vegas rematch?


Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

it's useless unless the thread started specified the adamantium tentacles for Otto.


Not if his current tentacles are carbonadium, like Omega Red.
Lizard's not going to be breaking tentacles of that level of durability either. Even assuming he does, Ock now has EIGHT mechanical arms, not merely the 4 tentacles he possessed before now. It's to his credit that Lizard did as well as he did, though, again, thanks to your scans, I see that Lizard now apparently has the completely unexpected power to confuse people with telepathy? Never imagined they'd come up with something like that for him.

Still Ock's fight to lose, though.

Hulk versus Doctor Octopus. Round 1. URL format.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14086473

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14086476

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14086478

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14086480

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14086482

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14086497





CarbonadiumLizard

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Thank you for your scans.

You're welcome.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You're not telling me that Lizard without a ranged attack wins, then.
You're telling me instead that Lizard HAS a ranged attack (telepathy).

You're not actually contradicting what I'm saying.

The "not really" part of my post still stands, because Ock's tentacles have been overcome in the past. You made a false claim, buddy.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
News to me. Never seen Pete able to break an arm in battle before, save for an instance many years ago where he was able to plant himself using his clinging ability, uproot Ock from his position, and whirl him around at high speed till shearing force made that tentacle break.

It was some story where a felon named "Jimbo Ryan" offed a G-man, if memory serves ...

That would be yet another instance in which Parker broke the tentacles then.

I can post scans later (or at least issue numbers) of the ones I mentioned, if you're interested.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Hulk is stronger and tougher than the Lizard.

The version of Hulk, Professor Hulk, that Doctor Octopus fought in that showing,
was arguably smarter and a better strategist than Lizard, too.

He's even GREEN, for cryin' out loud.


Who better to show for a Lizard fight stand-in ?

I dunno, Green Goblin maybe?

The harness he was using was NOT the one he has in this thread. Therefore it's not relevant.

It's like posting a scan of Reed Richards using Ultimate Nullifier. Or Wolverine being amped by asgardian weaponry and making short work of Kuurth. Against the rules in every way.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Hulk thunderclapped and disoriented Ock. Then used his strength while Ock was off-balance to pull Ock in close and strike before Ock could react.

Actually Otto DID react; he struck him with his arms, but Hulk no-sold it. Here:

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulk/hulkvsdcock4.jpg

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Lizard can't thunderclap.
Lizard isn't as strong as Hulk.

That's true.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Ock's fast enough to deflect bullets and is expecting trouble from the Lizard, knowing he is fast and vicious.

Exactly what do you think Lizard is going to DO to Ock to echo the Hulk/Octopus Las Vegas rematch?

You're the one who brought Hulk/Ock fight even though it can't be used in this thread...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Not if his current tentacles are carbonadium, like Omega Red.
Lizard's not going to be breaking tentacles of that level of durability either. Even assuming he does, Ock now has EIGHT mechanical arms, not merely the 4 tentacles he possessed before now. It's to his credit that Lizard did as well as he did, though, again, thanks to your scans, I see that Lizard now apparently has the completely unexpected power to confuse people with telepathy? Never imagined they'd come up with something like that for him.

Still Ock's fight to lose, though.

carbonadium =/= adamantium

It's weaker and flexible. And his arms are NOT made out of that metal, because Peter Parker broke them.

Lizard is three times as strong as Parker, stated on panel. Do the math.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

I can post scans later of the ones I mentioned, if you're interested.


Very much so, especially if it's the 8 as opposed to 4 armed version of Doctor Octopus. If nothing else, I'm interested to see how Spider-man managed to fight that many tentacles when Ock's ORIGINAL set used to trash Pete...



Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

The harness was using was NOT the one he has in this thread...

It's like posting a scan of ... Wolverine being amped by asgardian weaponry and making short work of Kuurth.


I'd be even MORE interested in seeing scans of this if it really happened;
Kuurth trashed the entire X-Men team before Cytorrak tipped the scales ...



Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

Otto DID react; he struck with his arms, but Hulk no-sold it. Here:

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulk/hulkvsdcock4.jpg


Well, "arm" (singular) anyway ...

Huh.

Good you pointed that out, 'cause I sure didn't notice it any other time around ...
Guess Ock was weakened in whatever fight he had before the Vegas encounter more than I thought.




Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

carbonadium =/= adamantium

It's weaker and flexible. And arms are NOT made out of that metal, because Peter Parker broke them.


Weaker and flexible, but still several times stronger than most forms of steel, including titanium.

This isn't actually telling me anything.




Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

Lizard is three times as strong as Parker, stated on panel.
Do the math.


I have.

8 Doc Ock tentacles
plus 1 Lizard
minus up to 3 or 4 tentacles ...

equals a "Doc Ock" win.


Unless, of course, that telepathy you mentioned is Charles Xavier-level stuff.
Or at least Psylocke.

Then I could see Liz posting a solid win record.



Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

The "not really" part of my post still stands, because Ock's tentacles have been overcome in the past. You made a false claim, buddy.





You're cheating.
You haven't shown anything of this sort.

Spider-man doesn't leap through walls and lift tall buildings with a single bound.
(Leastways ... he shouldn't. )


He could have splashed Doc with Liquid Nitrogen for all you've told me ...!


Post the Ock fight you're talking about and with a little bit of context, please.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Very much so, especially if it's the 8 as opposed to 4 armed version of Doctor Octopus. If nothing else, I'm interested to see how Spider-man managed to fight that many tentacles when Ock's ORIGINAL set used to trash Pete...

Here you are:

http://i49.tinypic.com/x68nt.jpg (most current Ock)

Thanks to Parmaniac for the scan.

--
The other incident I was talking about happened in Countdown arc (Spectacular Spider-Man volume 2 issues 6-10), the last issue, if I recall correctly. Ock upgraded his tentacles so they were stronger and faster... and Peter still managed to break free, much like in the example above.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'd be even MORE interested in seeing scans of this if it really happened;
Kuurth trashed the entire X-Men team before Cytorrak tipped the scales ...

"Mighty" (that's what the upgrade is called) Wolverine fought Kuurth after that, at the end of Fear Itself, so Cain was only powered by the Serpent.

1. http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/8034/mightyw.jpg
2. http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5673/mightyw2.jpg

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Weaker and flexible, but still several times stronger than most forms of steel, including titanium.

This isn't actually telling me anything.

Parker is not nearly strong enough to break carbonadium.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I have.

8 Doc Ock tentacles
plus 1 Lizard
minus up to 3 or 4 tentacles ...

equals a "Doc Ock" win.

Lizard always has been hard to put down and his speed is comparable with that of Spider-Man. The fight could go either way, imo.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Unless, of course, that telepathy you mentioned is Charles Xavier-level stuff.
Or at least Psylocke.

Then I could see Liz posting a solid win record.

It's more of a specialized tp, great feat for Ock for showing at least some resistance, btw...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider



You're cheating.
You haven't shown anything of this sort.

Spider-man doesn't leap through walls and lift tall buildings with a single bound.
(Leastways ... he shouldn't. )


He could have splashed Doc with Liquid Nitrogen for all you've told me ...!


Post the Ock fight you're talking about and with a little bit of context, please.

He's broken them with nothing but pure strength on both occasions.

Thoughts:


a. That looks like Spider-man in the way that Iron Man looks like Wolverine. I'm also left wondering if the suit contributes anything to Parker's overall strength the way at least one previous version was supposed to. Seldom have I seen Ock look worse. Screams alternate universe.

b. The dialogue, narration, and artwork supports enough of what you're saying for me to concede that modern Ock's tentacles could be broken by the Lizard in an excited enough state. Penned by a writer who was high enough at the time, Liz could even find a way to get past the active guard of the good Doctor's EIGHT 25 foot long tentacles in formal battle, and endure the multiple strikes and slams such would naturally entail, and land a disabling blow. I don't see it happening for any majority for Liz, but the revelation that Gundam-Suit Parker Spider-man was able to do it even though rolled up like a pillbug DOES suggest emergency options previously un-imagined.


c. Again, because it IS that jarring, that looks little if anything like the Spider-man that I know, and little, if anything, like the Doctor Octopus I know. I am assuming the "Sable" mentioned here is Silver Sable, a mercenary Spider-man used to work with/around/against/etcetera in the 1980s.
Didn't know she died. Sorry she did.





Nevertheless, if all of the above is valid, then I did indeed make a false claim when I wrote:


"once caught, no opponent without some sort of ranged attack has realistic hope of beating Ock."


I apologize.
I had no idea such unadulterated crap had been released by Marvel.
I honestly did NOT know of the events of this recent storyline.

Thank you for bringing this to my awareness.


(Thank you for this and the other scans you presented.)

No problem. Here you have some info about the suit:

http://marvel.wikia.com/Spider-Man's_Anti-Sinister_Six_Suit

Yes, he was talking about Silver Sable. Rhino drowned her or at least that's what Marvel wants us to believe for now. These characters never stay dead.

--
Spider-Man vs. upgraded Ock from the "Countdown" story I kept talking about:

1. http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9906/feat30fight7ng3.jpg
2. http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8695/feat30fight8ue4.jpg
3. http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3457/feat30fight9gx7.jpg

Fight lasted more than that - I'm just posting the ending. I'm missing the scan in which Otto ensnares him in tentacles, but you can see Parker breaking one of his arms by flexing his muscles here...

Otto thought he had him beaten, but in reality Peter played possum, broke free and headbutted him when Octavius moved him closer to himself in order to listen to his "last pathetic joke".

--
One extra fight I found; Spiderman tears off Classic Ock's tentacles:

1. http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8752/feat20strength1uq5.jpg
2. http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5058/feat20strength2ht3.jpg
3. http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7909/feat20strength3gl8.jpg

Credit for the scans goes to ScottWilliams from another board.

Nice scans, Stilt. You know your stuff.

Not a stomp either way; edge to Lizard, though, due to the strength advantage.

Id go with Doc Ock, though it wouldnt be a slaughter.