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For this thread Jimmy the totally average Astartes faces Johnny the equally average Jedi.

This are standard, run of the mill examples of their orders, not special characters or exceptional heroes. Just Jimmy and Johnny.

They're armed with their standard gear, lightsaber and force junk v.s. bolter, pistol, knife ect, and fight in the following scenarios.

1. 100 meter starting distance, spotting each other as they enter an emptied street.

2. 30 meter starting distance, fighting in a gymnasium.

3. 10 meter starting distance, in a hallway.

4. 2 meters, on a hill.

5. Are given neckties, and their neckties are tied together at the ends, and made of adamantium laced fabric.

How's it go?

Movies are the primary canon as always but EU examples are allowed for SW.

Jedi levitates the marines gun arm into the air and beats him to death with it.

The marine shoots him. We all know how well your typical jedi performs against slug throwers, and I doubt they could really lift the marine, let alone over power him.

How is he going to shoot him if his gun is pointing straight up into the air? Mara Jade, as a padawan, was able to toss a 2 ton safe.

Also, how do Jedi perform against slug throwers? I imagine it would be, "easier than against blasters"?

It's actually worse.

Blasters are easily visible bolts of energy and once fired stay in a straight line until they hit something or dissipate.

Slugthrowers shoot hard to see projectiles that can veer off course at a moments notice.

An automatic slugthrower can cause more problems than an automatic blaster.

But an Average Jedi Knight(that's the most numerous rank that would be in battle on their own) has a number of tools to handle that if they don't act stupid. A simple force yank to get the gun out of his hands. It's open season after tha.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
How is he going to shoot him if his gun is pointing straight up into the air? Mara Jade, as a padawan, was able to toss a 2 ton safe.

Also, how do Jedi perform against slug throwers? I imagine it would be, "easier than against blasters"?
I highly doubt a run of the mill jedi is overpowering a space marine with TK, and it's pretty well known that jedi have more trouble with solid projectile weapons than blasters.

@KingD19 A Space marine's physical strength probably put force yanking away the gun out of the question.

What sort of feats do Space Marines have strengthwise?

Lifting armoured personnel carriers over their heads, tearing open tank hatches, the hinges and the like of which would be made of plasteel, a superdurable metal that stands up to things like bolter fire extremely well.

Bolters or boltguns are essentially rapidfire armour piercing rocket propelled grenade launchers. Bolts are self propelled shells with 'diamantine' tips designed to penetrate their target and then explode, because grimdark.

Even without their armour they destroy the training servitors that they use to practice combat against. Their armour increases their strength, though.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I highly doubt a run of the mill jedi is overpowering a space marine with TK, and it's pretty well known that jedi have more trouble with solid projectile weapons than blasters.

No. It's really not. It would take very little power for a Jedi to knock a bullet off course. In the old Clone Wars series, we see Obi-Wan do this to some sort of machine gun.

Not that it matters. You're "average" Jedi is a terrible combatant who can be cut down by the dozens by a skilled warrior. Hell, Jango Fett kills several Jedi in "Open Seasons" with his bare hands.

The Space Marine takes this.

Yes, pretty much. 40K is stupid as hell in terms of capabilities.

Not really.

It isn't nearly as powerful as Doctor Who for example.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I highly doubt a run of the mill jedi is overpowering a space marine with TK, Prove this. I'm really not sure what your definition is of an average Jedi. I just pointed out that Mara Jade as an apprentice was able to lift 2000 pounds with her mind. That's about as weak as you can get.



Uhhh... what is the source for this? lol. I've read 60% of the EU, and I've never noticed Jedi struggling against solid projectiles.

Oh come on, 'diamantine'. Because its a cross between diamonds and adamantine? Why not just call them Godfvcker bullets.

Doctor Who is schlocky and absurd as well though. Like how the Doctor can create devices to kill whole species' in 5 minutes with stuff he finds laying around. You're not meant to take it seriously.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Prove this. I'm really not sure what your definition is of an average Jedi. I just pointed out that Mara Jade as an apprentice was able to lift 2000 pounds with her mind. That's about as weak as you can get.



Uhhh... what is the source for this? lol. I've read 60% of the EU, and I've never noticed Jedi struggling against solid projectiles. I'm talking about a Jedi completely typical in all levels of power and skill. So, a mook. A Jedi mook v.s. a Space mook.

Anyway, the slug thrower thing comes from a lot of places, and I actually only even know about it because I associate with a bunch of you EU fehgs. uhuh So, internet to the rescue.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Slugthrower



http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/13695/why-would-a-slug-thrower-be-more-effective-against-a-lightsaber-jedi-than-a-blas

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/13701/is-there-an-explicit-canon-answer-for-the-exact-speed-of-blaster-bolts-in-star-w

Found a KMC thread, read it

Originally posted by Nephthys
In DN, even Luke noticed that they were hard to block iirc, but yep, tehy were doing it.

I'd cite the book/whatever myself but have no idea what DN stands for!

Which reminds me, having cited a poster on a gaming forum, Jedi Outcast apparently advises you to shoot Jedi you don't wish to deal with up close or in duels. Neat.

It seems generally accepted from all this reading you forced on me that

1. SW armour is generally bullet proof, leading to "**** slug throwers".

2. Blast bolts are considered by most people to be slower than bullets? Makes sense, I guess, I just hadn't expected that being that I don't delve into the horrid and ugly underbelly of Star Wars that is anything other than the original trilogy. biscuits

It also seems, and someone quoted a novel on this, that it's harder to manipulate smaller objects with the force.



This leads to the following conundrum;

A bullet cannot be deflected by a saber, only melted into molten doom slag, and only a highly skilled force user can manipulate a small object moving so quickly.

...However, if Jedi just wore ****ing armour this would be a non-issue, apparently. haermm

Dark Nest.

Jedi do wear armor in wartime btw.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dark Nest.

Jedi do wear armor in wartime btw. Thank you. I probably won't read it, but now I know what to google.

And good, because seriously, their biggest weakness seems to be the tendency to wear a bathrobe, since the weapons in their universe that can actually penetrate armour are guesstimated by the fans to move at pretty blatantly subsonic speeds.

It wasn't actually a 'gun' in that book, it was a shatter gun, which fires using magnetic fields. Dunno if that counts or whatever but there ya go.

I guess its for the mobility. A lightsaber >>> most armor so you want to be able to block things as easily as possible.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I'm talking about a Jedi completely typical in all levels of power and skill. So, a mook. A Jedi mook v.s. a Space mook. Force potential doesn't work like soldiers in an army. There are jedi masters who are practically useless at using telepathy; similarly a group of padawans with only months of force training managed to force push a fleet of Star Destroyers so hard that they were pushed across an expanse of several light-years. There is no such thing as a typical Jedi.



1. A rapid fire slugthrower could mean a thousand bullets a second, which would overwhelm most Jedi, yes, but that's also way faster than a Bolter's RoF. "Rapid fire slugthrower" is too vague to be substantial, as it doesn't say how fast the RoF needs to be to overwhelm the Jedi.

2. There is no source listed for that statement, so it doesn't carry much weight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It wasn't actually a 'gun' in that book, it was a shatter gun, which fires using magnetic fields. Dunno if that counts or whatever but there ya go.

I guess its for the mobility. A lightsaber >>> most armor so you want to be able to block things as easily as possible. True, it makes sense for fighting other Jedi and being maneuverable in universe, I suppose.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Force potential doesn't work like soldiers in an army. There are jedi masters who are practically useless at using telepathy; similarly a group of padawans with only months of force training managed to force push a fleet of Star Destroyers so hard that they were pushed across an expanse of several light-years. There is no such thing as a typical Jedi.



1. A rapid fire slugthrower could mean a thousand bullets a second, which would overwhelm most Jedi, yes, but that's also way faster than a Bolter's RoF. "Rapid fire slugthrower" is too vague to be substantial, as it doesn't say how fast the RoF needs to be to overwhelm the Jedi.

2. There is no source listed for that statement, so it doesn't carry much weight. The sources are all at the bottom of the page, there's an assload of them. I'm kind of annoyed by this detail in particular since I really wanted to know where that was said specifically, and it doesn't number its' sources like Wikipedia does.

Rapidfire just means rapidfire. Bolters are rapidfire. There's no given minimal or maximum rate of fire given, so we can't make insane assumptions.

And I know for a fact mook Jedi exist. Every Jedi who is never named on screen in the movies is one.

Same is true of Spehss Mehreens. You're just trying to avoid my devious trap with your whiteboy dancing.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The sources are all at the bottom of the page, there's an assload of them. I'm kind of annoyed by this detail in particular since I really wanted to know where that was said specifically, and it doesn't number its' sources like Wikipedia does. Why should I assume the statement to be true if the source from which its derived is unknown?

In that case, why are you using it as a source for your argument? lol. That works both ways.

Mara Jade is not named on screen in the movies. She lifted a 2 ton safe with the force.

Plenty of Force Users, Sith in general wear nothing but armor.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Why should I assume the statement to be true if the source from which its derived is unknown?

In that case, why are you using it as a source for your argument? lol. That works both ways.

Mara Jade is not named on screen in the movies. She lifted a 2 ton safe with the force. Stop dancing and argue the fight. >|

I should probably revise the last point, though, any background Jedi not named is a mook. Jerk. That sentence meant any Jedi who appears exclusively in a movie, and is not named in the movie, is a mook, not that any Jedi who does not appear in a movie and is named elsewhere would be a mook. Originally posted by KingD19
Plenty of Force Users, Sith in general wear nothing but armor.
Hm, neat.

But yeah, anything to throw in on the actual fight? I did a lot of unnecessary digging today and I want my fix.

I know Jedi can block Slugthrowers with a bit more difficulty than blasters, but from what I've read, several of them have done so.

But according to these guys, Space Marines are like demi-gods or something with mega diamond bullets or something.

Space Marines get killed by robo-ants.

In the latest white dwarf article, a Space Marine was physically overpowered by two unenhanced human cultists, pinned to the ground, and stabbed to death with a knife.

They're pretty weak. Batman would beat up Maguns the Blue.

Originally posted by KingD19
I know Jedi can block Slugthrowers with a bit more difficulty than blasters, but from what I've read, several of them have done so.

But according to these guys, Space Marines are like demi-gods or something with mega diamond bullets or something. Not quite demi-gods, lol. Impressively powerful though. They can run through concrete walls and tear plasteel and shit.Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Space Marines get killed by robo-ants.

In the latest white dwarf article, a Space Marine was physically overpowered by two unenhanced human cultists, pinned to the ground, and stabbed to death with a knife.

They're pretty weak. Batman would beat up Maguns the Blue.

You lied to me, you said you were going to bed, ****er.

Also, are you serious? They can assault Commorragh with 300 ****ing marines, but shit like that happens? haermm

Who the **** wrote that garbage?

Originally posted by KingD19
I know Jedi can block Slugthrowers with a bit more difficulty than blasters,

Where do you "know" this from?

I've seen so many people claim this, yet the only source I've ever seen is Wookieepedia... It seems to be like the "Qui-Gon dueled equally with Windu" BS in that they both appear to have originated from the wook rather than any canon source.

Originally posted by KingD19 But according to these guys, Space Marines are like demi-gods or something with mega diamond bullets or something.

Yeah, I just kinda shake my head at it. From what I've seen and heard the universe is supposed to be taken seriously... But it's so laughably overpowered.

In Dark Nest Luke and Mara (I think) get attacked by people wielding shatterguns and manage to block them but notice the difficulty.

But as you noted a shattergun may simply be a variety of Slugthrower. I haven't read the books in a long time, but from the looks of it they are certainly far more potent than your average gun.

40k is and isn't serious. It plays a lot with self parody and just straight up rolls in the ridiculous grimdarkness of it all at times. Very tongue and cheek and fun. The Orks are an awesome example of that.

Other times it presents legitimate and serious drama with well designed characters. Albeit in a totally crapsack universe where everything wants them dead. Everything.

It's also not quite as overpowered as some of the fans would have you believe, although yeah, it certainly does dwarf your average sci-fi setting in terms of raw scale and firepower. (And also grimdarkness, I think GW might even have 'grimdark' trademarked.)

Your typical guardsman has a flashlight and paper armour, but there are over a quintillion of them IIRC. (A billion billion, but it might be 'merely' trillions or quadrillions. I just remember reading "a billion billion" somewhere. Might be outdated.) So the Imperium throws them at a problem until that problem goes away.

Their weapons aren't that crazy, lasguns are a lot like assault rifles, except charge packs are apparently super cheap and easy to reproduce, and lasguns themselves can sever limbs and burn through solid metal and the like with shots, but they're not going to slag a city block.

Once you start hitting antivehicle weapons and shit though things get a little nuttier, and they go from there, but within the context of the universe it's not all that bonkers. You have supermetals for your futuristic tanks, you need a big gun to kill them, hence melta weapons that vaporise solid materials.


Space Marines, the Astartes, do fall into the 'over powered' category, but with good reason. They're genetically modified super soldiers encased in incredibly advanced armour, and armed with powerful weaponry because they're the Imperium's shock troopers. They show up when it's most important, are the best armed, armoured, and trained the Imperium has, and they're basically supposed to be Legendary Spehss Knights. They're mostly confined to individual orders called Chapters that have a little over 1000 marines, with a total of only one million marines in the entire galaxy. Compare that to the Imperial guard, or the Orks who outnumber even them, or the Tyranids, who outnumber even the Orks.

Anyway, I've gotten off track.

I for one support the Spehss Mehreen for victory over the Jedi in all of the listed scenarios I've provided. WUT NAO?

Originally posted by KingD19
It's actually worse.

Blasters are easily visible bolts of energy and once fired stay in a straight line until they hit something or dissipate.

Slugthrowers shoot hard to see projectiles that can veer off course at a moments notice.

An automatic slugthrower can cause more problems than an automatic blaster.

But an Average Jedi Knight(that's the most numerous rank that would be in battle on their own) has a number of tools to handle that if they don't act stupid. A simple force yank to get the gun out of his hands. It's open season after tha.

Jedi use the Force to effectively "see". They're trained to fight blind from younglings.

Dooku took on Ventress and two of her "sisters" while blinded and he saw everything with the Force just fine in The Clone Wars cartoon.

Space marines, Warhammer books, right?

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Space marines, Warhammer books, right? Yes, 40k marines.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Yes, 40k marines. I read a few of those, good books.

Just something from the SW EU, there are parts where a Jedi uses the force to freeze the air in place, so if a decent Jedi froze the air in front of them, could that shield them from physical weapons?

I ask for opinions, I don't know if an average Jedi would be powerful enough.

Also, being imaginative (and stealing from Eragon books) the Jedi really need to get into slightly displacing nerves and stuff. However this may have moral issues for the Jedi.

Did they stop the air from moving, or did they squeeze a bunch of it in to one place? Water is many hundreds of time denser than air and bullets can still pass through it (to an extent). Depending on how powerful the gun and how close the shot, the bullet could still pass through and hit them.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Did they stop the air from moving, or did they squeeze a bunch of it in to one place? Water is many hundreds of time denser than air and bullets can still pass through it (to an extent). Depending on how powerful the gun and how close the shot, the bullet could still pass through and hit them.

That's something I cannot judge, but if we look at it physically, water being hit by a billet moves out of the way.

What happens if the air molecules are actually frozen, the bullet would not displace them as it does normal water, it might get shredded as if cut my a super fine mesh?

Speculation here of course In the book it was what (Tahiri IIRC) when she was a prisoner of the Vuzhann Vong, who were not present in the force. She was trying to choke one of them indirectly, using the air. However I think she was weakened, and was unsuccessful. She also wasn't a Jedi Knight yet.

Well if they're just holding the molecules in place, then I'm assuming a large enough amount of energy would overwhelm their grip and push them aside. I can hold a wood plank in one spot a bullet will still pass right through it. Unless the Jedi has such power and control as to make air impenetrable....

Ice is brittle, it'd likely break, and bolt rounds would blow it apart anyway.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The marine shoots him. We all know how well your typical jedi performs against slug throwers, and I doubt they could really lift the marine, let alone over power him.

I'm assuming that Foreign Cinema canon policy uses a universe's standard canon policy, in which case we do see Jedi handling slug throwers on multiple occasions; they're more difficult to defend against than blasters, but not by an enormous margin.

Since Jedi have precognition, and since the Force's telekinesis acts instantaneously, the space marine won't have the reflexes to prevent the Jedi from simply pushing the marine's gun down, up, or away, and then disarming him by yanking the gun out of his hands, peeling his fingers away if necessary.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm assuming that Foreign Cinema canon policy uses a universe's standard canon policy, in which case we do see Jedi handling slug throwers on multiple occasions; they're more difficult to defend against than blasters, but not by an enormous margin.

Since Jedi have precognition, and since the Force's telekinesis acts instantaneously, the space marine won't have the reflexes to prevent the Jedi from simply pushing the marine's gun down, up, or away, and then disarming him by yanking the gun out of his hands, peeling his fingers away if necessary. You'd have to prove the average Jedi's telekinesis is greater than the grip strength of a Marine.

How fast is the average Jedi?