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So, who do you think is more durable?

Durable how? Frieza survived being cut in half. Goku couldn't

Goku.

if by durable you mean, who would blow up first under ki blasts then Goku. But Frieza would survive longer than Goku would cut in half I'm willing to wager.

Being cut in half isn't a durability ft and Goku has had holes blown through his chest and he was still fighting. Trunks had a hole blown completely through his chest and was still living as well. Who can withstand more between Goku and Frieza?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mckju4xVpo1qhiu1c.gif

Need I say more?

Originally posted by carver9
Being cut in half isn't a durability ft and Goku has had holes blown through his chest and he was still fighting. Trunks had a hole blown completely through his chest and was still living as well. Who can withstand more between Goku and Frieza?

When did Goku fight with a hole in his chest? He was killed when Piccolo blasted him and Raditz thru the chest. Trunks died pretty quickly after getting a hole blown thru him by Cell. Vegeta dies when Frieza lasered thru his chest too.

Frieza can survive injuries that would put Goku in Otherworld so if that's what you mean by "who's more durable" then Frieza takes it.

Not only did Frieza survive being cut in half, but also Namek's explosion, while in a dying state before his father picked him up. Plus unlike Goku he can breathe anywhere in space. This shouldn't even be a debate.

Frieza's physiology is different from Goku's, hence why he was able to survive with his wounds in space. However that would fall under constitution, and not durability which carver9 is interested in.

Well super Saiyan Goku was able to block a sword with his index finger...

The same sword btw that hacked Frieza into pieces so i guess it really just depends on what Carver is looking for exactly. Surviving being cut in half is pretty durable too

Originally posted by carver9
Being cut in half isn't a durability ft and Goku has had holes blown through his chest and he was still fighting. Trunks had a hole blown completely through his chest and was still living as well. Who can withstand more between Goku and Frieza?

Surviving the wound is though. Goku wouldn't have. Back in Dragon ball yes. That doesn't compare to getting sliced in half. Umm he lived for a little bit I guess. He was on the ground hacking blood and then died though lol.

Oh Goku definitely.

Goku's power level is higher than Trunk's blows so that's why he can block a sword...

If Trunks was a SSJ2, Goku gets chopped into hundreds of pieces.

This is based off of overall durability...who can withstand more (punches, blasts, etc...). This is based on what a person can do when sliced in half.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Not only did Frieza survive being cut in half, but also Namek's explosion, while in a dying state before his father picked him up. Plus unlike Goku he can breathe anywhere in space. This shouldn't even be a debate.

Frieza and Goku fight proved who was more durable. Goku withstood more and lasted longer in that fight. Whatever Frieza can withstand, Goku can withstand as well. If first form Cell was to hit Frieza and Super Saiyan Goku with the same attack, Goku would handle it better.

During their fight on Namek it's possible Goku was doing more damage to Frieza than Frieza was returning. So technically Goku wouldn't have to be more durable. After that tho Goku's durability in SSJ1 sky rockets.

Are we talking Goku on Namek or Goku at some later stronger point in SSJ1? Cuz i'm pretty sure now his SSJ1 is more powerful than Perfect Cell but it's still just SSJ1

I'm referring to super saiyan one Goku. We use the last version of this form that was shown on panel based off forum rules.

Goku is more durable, Freeza has better damage-soak.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm referring to super saiyan one Goku. We use the last version of this form that was shown on panel based off forum rules.

Yeah and in his more current from his SSJ1 transformation is much stronger than when he could 1st do it

Freeza being able to survive in tatters is impressive be you couldnt really call it durability as he's not really tanking or resisting anything.

Well, maybe this comes down to the infamous "piercing vs blunt force" durability debate?

Frieza got diced by Trunks, but he also survived Namek's explosion. Goku was killed by a similar explosion from Cell.

Maybe Frieza cuts easier, but is harder to "blow up"?

Didnt Goku leave a bite mark on Freeza's tail? :T

Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, maybe this comes down to the infamous "piercing vs blunt force" durability debate?

Frieza got diced by Trunks, but he also survived Namek's explosion. Goku was killed by a similar explosion from Cell.

Maybe Frieza cuts easier, but is harder to "blow up"?

Cell power killed Goku, not the planet explosion. Frieza power killed Vegeta not the destruction of the rocks behind him. Vegeta power killed Nappa, not the destruction of the clouds behind him. Piccolo power killed Raditz, not the mountain being destroyed behind them. I feel pretty got darn safe at saying that Roshi moon busting attack wouldn't even TICKLE Raditz, let alone a Super Saiyan. When you all realize Collateral damage isnt the deciding factor of everything, then that would make you a better debatar. Goku is more durable, plain and simple and whatever Frieza endured, Goku can take it at a better rate.Goku damaged Frieza with kicks and blasts that did nothing to the planet, so I guess that means those attacks are > planetary.

..sarcasm?

Originally posted by BloodRain
..sarcasm?

Truth.

Originally posted by carver9
Truth.
How can "did nothing to the planet" and "those attacks are > planetary" be in the same sentence?

I could have sworn Frieza only survived being chopped in half because Goku gave him some of his own energy..?

no...although if goku didn't give him energy goku wouldn't of fired back...frieza would of survived... just out of energy to do anything

Originally posted by BloodRain
How can "did nothing to the planet" and "those attacks are > planetary" be in the same sentence?

Because its common sense that a planet doesn't have to explode for something to be greater than a planetary blast, punch, etc...common sense. Galactus shot Thanos with everything he had but the ship didn't explode whereas a calm Galactus not even using a fraction of his power laid waste to a planet.

Picollo special beam canon>>>>the casual blast he used to destroy the moon. Trunks blast he turned Frieza to dust with>>>>Nameks explosion. Gohan final blast he used to kill Cell>>>>>>the blast that destroyed snake way and the KI planet.

It's sad that I have to break this down. Collateral damage isn't the deciding factor of everything unless you truly believe Master Roshi and Piccolo (with a power level of 350) is more powerful than Frieza who exerted a lot of energy against Goku but didn't do anything close to moon busting during that fight. Think Bloodrain.

Originally posted by Galan007
I could have sworn Frieza only survived being chopped in half because Goku gave him some of his own energy..?

Yes, Frieza was out and done until Goku gave him energy. I forgot all about that crap.

Thats all well and good, probably, but I was actually pondering the reason behind the sentence "The attacks didn't scratch the planet, so they are planetary+" and how you came it, not the collateral stuff.

Was only chiming in on that part 'cause I wasn't really paying much attention to what what you guys were talking about until right now haermm




But I will say this; If a guy uses planetary strength to punch a planet, the planet will be destroyed unless he toned down the attack. Newtons laws or something like that.

And its not like every single attack in their fight is a planetary one.. in fact this has been stated in the manga. Cell vs Goku; Goku mega-charges his Kamehameha and everyone's shocked because this attack is at the level of planet busting. The collateral damage has to be true or this wouldn't have been a problem and no one would bring up how strong it is, especially not Cell seeing as he's apparently been taking stronger throughout the fight... not to mention Cell would have easily brushed off an attack that had just reached Planet busting if he can tank a variety of Planet+ punches.

Several Planet++ attacks = walk it off, no problem. One Planet buster = fear and evaporation?

Lol...the Z fighters have been shocked at Nuke level power (from Frieza). Its notthe destruction behind the blast that excites them, its the power the blast wields.

Of course they would say Goku blast would annihilate the planet because...it could. Let's not pretend like that was the first time they've felt planet destruction power. Hell, Goku felt that during his first fight with Vegeta, so planet busting should be of no surprise to a Z fighter.

Also...lol again. Uuummm, Vegeta during the Saiyan saga, even with his planet busting power wouldn't even TICKLE Frieza and this was proven during the Namek saga. Planet busting is all nice and dandy (to the weakest of Z fighters) but again, its not the be all, end of of DBZ and Collateral damage isn't as well. Like I've stated before, when you get pass this, things will become clearer to you.

*Pretend I'm showing you some scans /effort/*

Yeah, the power. And the power of his attack was charged up to a level where the Earth would be destroyed. Now why would he charge up an attack like that and have people comment on it if his normal punches are at a higher level of power?

Nice dodge, none of that was in any way related to half of my post. Don't go on a tangent about what weaker characters cant do to stronger ones, address the words that are coming out of my text-mouth:

Undeniable facts in the manga;
Fact 1- Cell took dozens of attacks from Goku with little sign of injury.
Fact 2- Goku thought a planet busting attack would work.
Fact 3- Cell and the others pissed themselves at the sight of Goku charging up a planet buster.
Fact 4- Said attack vaporized Cell.

If all of Goku's attacks were planetary, why did he think a simple Earth-level blast would work? Why was everyone reacting to a level of power that they've been seeing since Freeza? Why did that Earth-level blast destroy Cell when stronger punches didn't bother him that much?

Show me the scan where someone said that the blast was only planetary. They said the blast would destroy the planet, they never said it was "only" a planetary level blast. What I am telling you is that there wasn't a limit on how powerful Goku blast was.

*Pretend I'm showing you some scans /effort/*

Doth thou hath no respect for laziness?.... Fine

It's true that in that instance they never said it was 'only' a planetary attack, but like I said, "Why was everyone reacting to a level of power that they've been seeing since Freeza?" because in your opinion "its the power the blast wields" that shocks them. How can one planet busting attack be shocking when anyones punch packs that power too? Orrr, my new example;

"Would he really use that attack on the surface of the Earth?"
"Do you want to destroy the Earth?"
"At the last second he made his attack smaller"
"GRUNT"

As you can see, Vegeta was about to use an attack that would have destroyed the Earth if he didn't reduce it. By Trunks and Vegeta's own admittance, Vegeta ended up using an attack that was weaker than a planet buster.

And it still vaporized a portion of Cell.

Vegeta narrowed the beam width, it doesn't necessarily state that the blast got weaker.

Yeah unless he was originally going to make a continental sized blast, the actual size doesn't really matter. When Z fighters say bigger/smaller, they're not talking about the size; Here we have Gohan's attack connecting with Cell's, and even though his is smaller in size, Vegeta still says that his was the bigger one. The size they mean is the power.


In fact Vegeta's attack is not different in size than Gohan and Cell's attack above, their stronger attack in motion or even an earlier one.

So yeah, Trunks is talking about the power, not the physical size.

Are you really arguing the size of the blast determines the power of the blast when it comes to DBZ attacks? REALLY?

Originally posted by carver9
Cell power killed Goku, not the planet explosion. Frieza power killed Vegeta not the destruction of the rocks behind him. Vegeta power killed Nappa, not the destruction of the clouds behind him. Piccolo power killed Raditz, not the mountain being destroyed behind them.
Those aren't quite the same thing. Vegeta and Raditz were actually pierced by those attacks, and died as a result. As for Nappa, clouds exploding aren't even remotely the same thing as the planet exploding.

Regardless, I wasn't asserting that Frieza is more durable. I wanted to hear everyone's opinions on it. That's why I asked a question rather than making a statement.
Originally posted by carver9
When you all realize Collateral damage isnt the deciding factor of everything, then that would make you a better debatar.

Goku is more durable, plain and simple and whatever Frieza endured, Goku can take it at a better rate.Goku damaged Frieza with kicks and blasts that did nothing to the planet, so I guess that means those attacks are > planetary.
That is hilarious coming from you.

Which is why planetary attacks are still killing Goku after the Frieza saga, amirite?

Originally posted by carver9
Are you really arguing the size of the blast determines the power of the blast when it comes to DBZ attacks? REALLY?
Originally posted by BloodRain
the actual size doesn't really matter
In the first sentence..



Also: "Vegeta was about to use an attack that would have destroyed the Earth if he didn't reduce it. By Trunks and Vegeta's own admittance, Vegeta ended up using an attack that was weaker than a planet buster. And it still vaporized a portion of Cell."

Originally posted by BloodRain
In the first sentence..



Also: "Vegeta was about to use an attack that would have destroyed the Earth if he didn't reduce it. By Trunks and Vegeta's own admittance, Vegeta ended up using an attack that was weaker than a planet buster. And it still vaporized a portion of Cell."

They didn't say it was weaker AND, Vegeta used the same attack against Frieza that was about to destroy Namek. Are you saying non Super Saiyan Vegeta blast (that he used against Frieza that kicked it like a play toy) is equal to Ascended Saiyan Vegeta blast? Think about it bro. Meditate on it.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Those aren't quite the same thing. Vegeta and Raditz were actually pierced by those attacks, and died as a result. As for Nappa, clouds exploding aren't even remotely the same thing as the planet exploding.

Regardless, I wasn't asserting that Frieza is more durable. I wanted to hear everyone's opinions on it. That's why I asked a question rather than making a statement.

That is hilarious coming from you.

Which is why planetary attacks are still killing Goku after the Frieza saga, amirite?

Planetary attacks isnt killing Goku, Cell is killing Goku. That's why Superman died from a punch that took out some windows huh? Thats why Thor died from a blast that didn't even level a mountain huh? These type of arguments are lame. When You realize it was Doomsday power that killed Superman, then you can holla at me. When you realize it was the Serpent power that killed Thor, holla at me...unit then, I'm shaking my head at you.

Originally posted by carver9
They didn't say it was weaker
"Here we have Gohan's attack connecting with Cell's, and even though his is smaller in size, Vegeta still says that his was the bigger one. The size they mean is the power."

From what is obviously shown here, when Vegeta mentions that Gohan's attack was bigger he means in power. That goes the same for Trunks about Vegeta's attack, so.. "By Trunks and Vegeta's own admittance, Vegeta ended up using an attack that was weaker than a planet buster."


The rest of your post had little to do with mine, that and no one said that attack would destroy Namek, and it still made Freeza freak out when he found out its power, making him forced to deflect it instead of tanking the the explosion. Anyhow, I'd prefer if you'd actually address the point I'm making this time instead of going on about other characters and instances that don't really answer anything. If you can prove Trunks and Vegeta's own statements to be wrong, then do so.

Being cut in half and still surviving.
Floating around in space,in an almost dead form,waiting for regeneration.
My vote goes to Frieza.

Originally posted by carver9
Planetary attacks isnt killing Goku, Cell is killing Goku. That's why Superman died from a punch that took out some windows huh? Thats why Thor died from a blast that didn't even level a mountain huh? These type of arguments are lame. When You realize it was Doomsday power that killed Superman, then you can holla at me. When you realize it was the Serpent power that killed Thor, holla at me...unit then, I'm shaking my head at you.
....like I said. Hilarious coming from you. I've seen you make those same "lame" arguments. Collateral damage suddenly stops mattering now that it works against a DBZ character, but you bring that shit up constantly when they go against someone else.

Also, those characters have feats Goku doesn't. If Goku was running around shrugging off galactic explosions, you might have a point. He wasn't doing stuff like that though, so....

Goku went up against a planetary attack. He died.

PS. Doomsday's punch shook Earth to its core. Those windows shattered all the way from Metropolis to Gotham.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Didnt Goku leave a bite mark on Freeza's tail? :T
Goku's teeth are adamantium strength.

Repair companies must be making a fortune in those cities..

@Bloodrain...

I'm glad we came to an agreement that Saiyan Saga Goku and Vegeta can kill ascended Saiyan Goku and Cell with their planet destroying power. Makes so much sense.

Posting again because aparently I'm the only person who could see my post above or something, 'cause we all know carver doesn't run and hide from an argument.. especially after "no one said that attack would destroy Namek, and it still made Freeza freak out when he found out its power" and "I'd prefer if you'd actually address the point I'm making this time instead of going on about other characters and instances that don't really answer anything".




So, the main point yet again; "By Trunks and Vegeta's own admittance, Vegeta ended up using an attack that was weaker than a planet buster."
Proof against Trunks and Vegeta's statements admitting that Vegeta did not use a planet busting level of attack to do that to Cell? Answer or concede I guess..

@bloodrain...

I did answer your crazy question. Vegeta making his blast smaller doesn't mean his blast doesn't pack a whollop to damage Cell. A planet doesn't always have to explode for EVERY attack. A planet doesn't have to explode to kill Goku,Cell, Superman, Magneto, hell, Galactus almost died and the planet he was on was still intact.

When I brought up Saiyan Saga Goku and Vegeta, they had planetary power and I feel got darn safe at saying they couldn't even tickle Cell. I feel safe at saying Piccolo with a power level of 350 and Roshi couldn't even tickle Nappa with their moon busting power. Cell was pass planetary durability unless again, you believe Saiyan Saga Vegeta or Goku could kill him.

Vegeta POWER damaged Cell, not the backlash of his blast that is>>>>>>any blast done during the saiyan Saga, namekian saga, Etc etc. Don't get what's so hard to comprehend.

We know that Saiyan saga Vegeta had enough power to destroy a planet, this was stated on panel. A FAR more powerful Vegeta used his most powerful attack against Frieza (which any smart man would know this blast>>any blast before any of Vegeta attacks since this was a more powerful Vegeta) and Frieza kicked it out of the air easily.

Let's not include the fact that Goku during the Saiyan saga used the Kayo Ken times 3 that had enough power to shed Earth and when he fought Frieza, he used the Kayo Ken times 20 and Frieza TANKED the attack.

All of this is common sense bro. A planet doesn't have to explode for us to know how powerful a blast is. Vegeta being able to damage Cell let's me know Vegeta blast is more powerful than anything before it. Doomsday window shattering punch that killed Superman let's me know how powerful Doomsday is.

You need to concede since your entire argument is based on the width (lol...WTF) of a blast.

Not going to bother following the course of the discussion but yeah the size of the explosion alone doesn't determine the power. It can simply be super concentrated.

Nappa's two finger multi-city wiping blast and Vegeta's sacrificial blast against Majin Buu were of comparable size, but not in power. Nappa survived being within the center of his own blast, a several thousands of times stronger Vegeta did not.

Yeah let's be honest here: Saiyan saga Vegeta (PL=18,000) was a planet buster. I wouldn't even consider it a possibility for him to harm base form Frieza (PL=530,000) with that same Galick Gun attack... Let alone Cell (PL=4,000,000,000).

Clearly the potency of DBZ blasts cannot always be measured by collateral damage.

Originally posted by carver9
I did answer your crazy question. Vegeta making his blast smaller doesn't mean his blast doesn't pack a whollop to damage Cell. A planet doesn't always have to explode for EVERY attack.

/etc/

You need to concede since your entire argument is based on the width (lol...WTF) of a blast.



Originally posted by BloodRain

In the first sentence..

"Yeah unless he was originally going to make a continental sized blast, the actual size doesn't really matter. When Z fighters say bigger/smaller, they're not talking about the size; Here we have Gohan's attack connecting with Cell's, and even though his is smaller in size, Vegeta still says that his was the bigger one. The size they mean is the power.


In fact Vegeta's attack is not different in size than Gohan and Cell's attack above, their stronger attack in motion or even an earlier one.

So yeah, Trunks is talking about the power, not the physical size. "




Ive said this a few times now, its not the size thats the issue, its the power. The same blast that both Krillin and Trunks outright say /would/ have destroyed Earth had he not, as seen above the size wasnt the topic, weakened it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah let's be honest here: Saiyan saga Vegeta (PL=18,000) was a planet buster. I wouldn't even consider it a possibility for him to harm base form Frieza (PL=530,000) with that same Galick Gun attack... Let alone Cell (PL=4,000,000,000).

Clearly the potency of DBZ blasts cannot always be measured by collateral damage.

This is EXACTLY what I am telling bloodrain. Pretty freaking common sense...this includes your post as well Cosmic. It takes more than planetary attacks to hurt Cell, Frieza, ETC. Just because the planet didn't explode doesnt mean Cell durability isn't above Planetary. Just because a large portion of the planet wasn't destroyed when Piccolo hit Raditz with a blast that drained him doesn't mean that Raditz durability isn't above moon busting. Enjoy debating against yourself Bloodrain.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah let's be honest here: Saiyan saga Vegeta (PL=18,000) was a planet buster. He didn't destroy a planet in the manga, only in filler.

Him stating he would "turn the planet to ash" means exactly dick without the feat to back up legitimate planet busting.

And why do people think that "planet busters" are equal?

It takes about a thousand times the energy it takes to destroy our moon, as it does to destroy Earth.

Imagine how much energy it would take to reach star busting.

Goku being capable of reading power levels is enough proof that Vegeta would have destroyed earth, especially since Goku had to counter that blast with a planet buster of his own. And if Piccolo with a freaking power level of 350 can destroy a moon with a casual blast and Roshi with a PL of 150 can destroy a moon, I see no reason on why its even debatable if Vegeta, Nappa, or Goku could annihilate a planet. Get your hate out of here Nemebro.

Originally posted by carver9
Goku being capable of reading power levels is enough proof that Vegeta would have destroyed earth, especially since Goku had to counter that blast with a planet buster of his own. And if Piccolo with a freaking power level of 350 can destroy a moon with a casual blast and Roshi with a PL of 150 can destroy a moon, I see no reason on why its even debatable if Vegeta, Nappa, or Goku could annihilate a planet. Get your hate out of here Nemebro.

Hey real quick, what is 150 times a thousand?

150,000.

Even according to your biased, anally raped form of power scaling, we have no reason beyond a claim made by a character in a frenzied stupor to suspect he could bust a planet.

Also, prove Goku knows how much power it takes to bust a planet, lol.

Also, prove Goku at any time thought or said "Wow that blast really can destroy the planet".

Also, clench your rectum when I push myself inside you. If we're really going to continue doing this, we might as well make it feel good for the both of us.

The writer gave us an indication of how powerful the blast was through Goku...that's all we need. Just like the writer let us know that Goku knew he was incapable of stopping Kid Buu blast because it was too powerful. That's like asking "how did Piccolo know the amount of force to use to destroy the moon...he knew because of power reading...same with Roshi, same with Nappa city destroying blast. DBZ characters knows the amount of force it takes to destroy something...this has been proven through the manga. Don't know why you are even disputing this.

Not even Final Form Freeza could bust an Earth-like planet outright let alone Saiyan Saga Vegeta.

Frieza held back for fear for his life

Yet that was his only planet buster shown on panel, we can't really say if he would've been able to destroy it instantly even if he wanted to.

True. Too bad we can't count Planet Vegeta.

Originally posted by NemeBro
He didn't destroy a planet in the manga, only in filler.

Him stating he would "turn the planet to ash" means exactly dick without the feat to back up legitimate planet busting.

And why do people think that "planet busters" are equal?

It takes about a thousand times the energy it takes to destroy our moon, as it does to destroy Earth.

Imagine how much energy it would take to reach star busting. I can only follow that logic so far. The writer is telling us these facts so that we, the readers, have a bearing on how powerful various characters are.

Saiyan Saga Vegeta stated that his Galick Gun was sufficient to destroy the earth.
It was stated that base form Frieza destroyed the planet Vegeta.
It was stated that the Final Flash attack Vegeta launched at Cell would have destroyed earth had he not made it weaker.
Jesus Cell stated that he'd gathered enough energy to destroy the entire solar system.
Etc.

Why are we all of the sudden attempting to doubt the validity of character statements?

Originally posted by stargun
Yet that was his only planet buster shown on panel, we can't really say if he would've been able to destroy it instantly even if he wanted to.

Frieza stated it took ALL of his energy to escape from the spirit bomb...he was depleted. That's why he didn't destroy Namek, he didn't have the energy.

Writers intent...so got darn clear just like power levels in DBZ is clear.

Originally posted by carver9
Writers intent...so got darn clear just like power levels in DBZ is clear. You know, it's really no different than power levels. Being told that Vegeta's PL during the Saiyan saga was 18,000 is no different than being told his attack could have destroyed the earth. It seems like a complete double-standard to regard the former as canon, but not the latter.

Many facts in DBZ are based solely on character statements. Why those statements are now being questioned seems a bit... Odd. You cannot question some statements w/o questioning them all.

Originally posted by NemeBro
And why do people think that "planet busters" are equal?

It takes about a thousand times the energy it takes to destroy our moon, as it does to destroy Earth.
To be frank though, the average human has a power level of 5. Roshi had a power level of 139 when he destroyed the moon. From this we can deduce that the relation is clearly not a linear relation.

In fact. By using 1,000 joules as maximum output for the human, and 1.2445⋿29 for Roshi's maximum output you can logarithm the energy axis and find that the relation should be of order 2.2. Meaning that for the relation should be (y/x)^2.2 + residual. (Note that 1,000 Joules isn't that much, but higher values will produce a higher order, but the order 2.2 is enough to clarify the point.)

The residual does tend towards zero for larger values x and y, meaning you can neglect it for higher values.

So, assuming that the residual is neglectable for the relation Vegeta's power level and Roshi's power level (18,000 and 139 respectively). Vegeta should be able to produce (18,000/139)^2.2 = 44,400 times more energy.

If we assume that it isn't neglectable, he should be able to produce even more energy because the residual is always greater than zero.

So the fact that it's just a factor of a few thousands that separates the two values doesn't mean much if you take a moment to think about it.

Conclusively it's not a stretch to believe that 18,000 is enough to destroy a planet, or that Cell had enough energy to destroy the solar system at >4⋿9.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Hey real quick, what is 150 times a thousand?

150,000.

Even according to your biased, anally raped form of power scaling, we have no reason beyond a claim made by a character in a frenzied stupor to suspect he could bust a planet.
Actually we have every reason to believe that Vegeta could destroy the planet based on power levels and the relation to feats over the series. See my previous reply.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, prove Goku knows how much power it takes to bust a planet, lol.
Considering how he's a master at ki-control, it's not too far-fetched to suspect that he could make reasonable estimations of the collateral damage various ki-based attacks would cause, even though he might not know the exact value in terms of Joules.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, prove Goku at any time thought or said "Wow that blast really can destroy the planet".
He didn't, but Vegeta did. Which is all that's really required. A point isn't more valid because it's redundantly repeated.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, clench your rectum when I push myself inside you. If we're really going to continue doing this, we might as well make it feel good for the both of us.
Shut your dumb ass up. I'm not one to force someone to analyze a fictional work in logical detail. But if you're going to do it then don't half-ass it to then act like you're a paragon of logic. Your whole argument centers around a linear mapping between power levels and energy, which is illogical.

Wasn't he at PL 180? Small detail.


Not ki joules though. PL10 Goku could punch holes in car doors with his blast.

And this only compares one instance and not all the other blasts in the series that are considerably weaker.



Off topic- Personally find it odd how destruction is the main topic for DBZ threads when we've only seen on panel 2 planets being destroyed, and one was via chain reaction..



Its more a secondary argument as the first and more obvious argument that there's no solid proof or panel showing anything near a stellar level in the manga gets brushed aside by anyone opposing it by citing baseless quotes or giving theories on power levels.

Vegeta not being able to survive out in space, take a planet exploding or having an end-game plan (no space pod to get his broken ass home) points to him not really being all that serious about blowing up the Earth. Life-wiping or razing sure, just not planet busting.

Then there's characters using and being threatened by +/- planet level attacks. Even the destruction loving Buu only gets up to planetary levels.

Vegeta can breathe in space. Shown when he blew up Arlia and stood outside his pod to do so.

Non-canon.

Goku was nearly drowning on Namek, so they need to breath air to live.

Even if the Arlia bit is non-canon, Bardock is canon. And he attacked Frieza in space with no problems.

Originally posted by KingD19
Vegeta can breathe in space. Shown when he blew up Arlia and stood outside his pod to do so.

Doesn't mean he can breathe in space, just that he can survive long enough to blast then close the door and get things aired-up again.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Vegeta not being able to survive out in space, take a planet exploding or having an end-game plan (no space pod to get his broken ass home) points to him not really being all that serious about blowing up the Earth. Life-wiping or razing sure, just not planet busting. Vegeta outright said that he was going to destroy the earth itself(his actual words were: "turn the planet to ashes." Obviously he was not talking about merely expunging all life on earth, but rather, destroying the planet outright. Like it or not, Akira himself put those words in Vegeta's mouth--- so unless we were given a good reason to doubt the validity of his statement(which we were not) then there is no reason to assume he was speaking in hyperbole to Goku. If you're going to question Vegeta's statement, then you must be prepared to question EVERY statement ANY character has EVER made throughout the history of DBZ. Are you really prepared to do that?

Some examples(there are literally dozens more):
-Dodoria stated that Frieza destroyed the planet Vegeta. Frieza himself extrapolated on Dodoria's statement, and said that he destroyed the planet "easily" in his base form. Because the manga never depicted Frieza destroying said planet, should we assume that he did not?

-Supreme Kai stated that Buu destroyed hundreds of worlds and killed all of the other Kai. Because we never saw Buu destroy these worlds or kill the Kai in the manga, should we assume he did not?

-Supreme Kai also stated that Bibidi created Buu. Because we did not see said creation in the manga, should we assume Buu was created through some other means?

Surely you understand what I'm saying...


Having said that, I think it is faulty to question narrative written by Akira himself, without having a legitimate reason to do so. During the Saiyan Saga in particular, Vegeta was as prideful/cocky/arrogant/egotistical as it gets. He would have rather destroyed the entire earth(along with himself) than live with the humility of being trounced by a 'low-level' Saiyan, like Goku. Point being: Saiyan Saga Vegeta was capable of planet-busting, and would have succeeded in doing so had Goku not overpowered his Galick Gun with a kaioken x4 Kamehameha.

Originally posted by Q99
Doesn't mean he can breathe in space, just that he can survive long enough to blast then close the door and get things aired-up again. Vegeta and Nappa had a full-on conversation in space after Arlia was destroyed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnqtg0bte6w
So for the purposes of the anime, they were definitely capable of breathing in space.

Originally posted by Galan007
Vegeta outright said that he was going to destroy the earth itself(his actual words were: "turn the planet to ashes." Obviously he was not talking about merely expunging all life on earth, but rather, destroying the planet outright. Like it or not, Akira himself put those words in Vegeta's mouth--- so unless we were given a good reason to doubt the validity of his statement(which we were not) then there is no reason to assume he was speaking in hyperbole to Goku. If you're going to question Vegeta's statement, then you must be prepared to question EVERY statement ANY character has EVER made throughout the history of DBZ. Are you really prepared to do that?

Some examples(there are literally dozens more):
-Dodoria stated that Frieza destroyed the planet Vegeta. Frieza himself extrapolated on Dodoria's statement, and said that he destroyed the planet "easily" in his base form. Because the manga never depicted Frieza destroying said planet, should we assume that he did not?

-Supreme Kai stated that Buu destroyed hundreds of worlds and killed all of the other Kai. Because we never saw Buu destroy these worlds or kill the Kai in the manga, should we assume he did not?

-Supreme Kai also stated that Bibidi created Buu. Because we did not see said creation in the manga, should we assume Buu was created through some other means?

Surely you understand what I'm saying...


Having said that, I think it is faulty to question narrative written by Akira himself, without having a legitimate reason to do so. During the Saiyan Saga in particular, Vegeta was as prideful/cocky/arrogant/egotistical as it gets. He would have rather destroyed the entire earth(along with himself) than live with the humility of being trounced by a 'low-level' Saiyan, like Goku. Point being: Saiyan Saga Vegeta was capable of planet-busting, and would have succeeded in doing so had Goku not overpowered his Galick Gun with a kaioken x4 Kamehameha.

Yes, totally prepared to do that/have already done so if its relevant to their feats.

1. Yes, because later on we see a beaten down Freeza destroying Namek and an even later King Cold suggesting that Mecha!Freeza should just blow up the Earth from their ship.
2. Yes, because we see Buu easily destroy the Earth. That and weaker characters can destroy a planet, its obvious that he could too.
3. Ye-.. who cares, it has nothing to do with anything we'd argue here so that would be pointless. Though nothing suggests this would be a lie so there's no reason to doubt.

The thing is that the above two planet feats have two major things in common; That the character stating it was present when the event happened, and that we see a similar event happen on panel. Not only did we not see Vegeta destroy any planet, we also have no one to say that he could actually do so besides his own, berserker raged threat he said when he literally snapped.

Vegeta has never been suicidal until the Buu arc when he did so to protect Trunks etc. And if he didn't care about his life with such a humiliation then he wouldn't have been so afraid when Krillin was about to kill him. The guy wanted to survive and come back for revenge, not die trying.

And those good reasons to doubt?
1. Never saw him destroy any planet.
2. No one can vouch for it.
3. We only see and mention planet busting when talking about someone as strong as base Freeza with his core rupture move. Vegeta's far from his strength and further is he's just using a normal blast. What I find interesting is that a 70% Final form Freeza tried and failed (by his own words) to destroy Namek with a single blast cause he said it wasnt strong enough, though it still got to the core.
4. He would have killed himself in the explosion.
5. Surviving that, he would have suffocated.
6. Surviving that, his pod would be destroyed and he'd be too weak from the beating + explosion to go all the way to base to heal himself and again would die.


If we just take the word of any character with nothing else to support it as a fact, then we'd pretty much be like the earthlings that believe Hercule is the strongest warrior on the planet because he says so..

well... to answer the question i would say frieza. only because he survived the planet exploding while goku left, but also was cut in pieces and survived while being turned into a cyborg. i dont think goku could survive the cutting up part in super saiyan 1 at that point.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Yes, totally prepared to do that/have already done so if its relevant to their feats.

1. Yes, because later on we see a beaten down Freeza destroying Namek and an even later King Cold suggesting that Mecha!Freeza should just blow up the Earth from their ship.
2. Yes, because we see Buu easily destroy the Earth. That and weaker characters can destroy a planet, its obvious that he could too.
3. Ye-.. who cares, it has nothing to do with anything we'd argue here so that would be pointless. Though nothing suggests this would be a lie so there's no reason to doubt.

The thing is that the above two planet feats have two major things in common; That the character stating it was present when the event happened, and that we see a similar event happen on panel. Not only did we not see Vegeta destroy any planet, we also have no one to say that he could actually do so besides his own, berserker raged threat he said when he literally snapped.

Vegeta has never been suicidal until the Buu arc when he did so to protect Trunks etc. And if he didn't care about his life with such a humiliation then he wouldn't have been so afraid when Krillin was about to kill him. The guy wanted to survive and come back for revenge, not die trying.

And those good reasons to doubt?
1. Never saw him destroy any planet.
2. No one can vouch for it.
3. We only see and mention planet busting when talking about someone as strong as base Freeza with his core rupture move. Vegeta's far from his strength and further is he's just using a normal blast. What I find interesting is that a 70% Final form Freeza tried and failed (by his own words) to destroy Namek with a single blast cause he said it wasnt strong enough, though it still got to the core.
4. He would have killed himself in the explosion.
5. Surviving that, he would have suffocated.
6. Surviving that, his pod would be destroyed and he'd be too weak from the beating + explosion to go all the way to base to heal himself and again would die.


If we just take the word of any character with nothing else to support it as a fact, then we'd pretty much be like the earthlings that believe Hercule is the strongest warrior on the planet because he says so.. Wow, all you did here is attempt to disregard character statements in favor of your own opinion (your opinion isn't canon, btw.) That said, there is really no reason to pick apart every single portion of your retort. Instead, I'll just highlight the meat and potatoes that you dodged, once more...

Supreme Kai stated that Bibidi created Buu. We never saw this creation take place in the manga, so does that mean Kai was just talking BS/hyperbole? Obviously not--- despite never seeing Buu being created, we, the readers, were intended to take the Kai's statements regarding Buu as 100% factual. Same thing when Frieza stated that the easily destroyed the planet Vegeta in his base form. We never saw it happen in the manga, but it was clearly intended to be taken as fact... The EXACT same logic also crosses over to Vegeta's statement--- Vegeta stated that his Galick Gun was powerful enough to destroy the earth, and we were NEVER given a legitimate reason to question the validity of his statement. By that point in the battle, it was quite obvious that Vegeta was desperate enough to do anything he needed to do, if it meant defeating Goku. The Galick Gun was his last resort.

Aside from the above, there is not one literary medium (especially DBZ) in which the reader is intended to doubt statements made by key characters, without having a damn good(ie. canon) reason to do so. It is even more faulty for a reader to pick and choose which character statements they accept as fact and which they don't--- especially in a case where every character statement is written by the same author. All you're doing right now is digging for reasons to try and devalue Vegeta's statement with all your 'maybes' and 'what ifs', because you don't want to accept the fact that a guy with a PL of 18,000 was capable of planet-busting. Your opinion, however, doesn't supersede the fact that Akira clearly intended Saiyan Saga Vegeta to be on that level, HENCE THE NARRATIVE HE PERSONALLY WROTE IN THAT SCENE. Character statements in published literature>>>your opinion. End of story.


At any rate, this will be my last post on the topic. Frankly, anyone who would argue with the above facts (yes, everything I stated=fact) is trollishly illogical, and certainly not worth wasting my time on.

It's hard to say, frieza was still alive with the lower half of his body, his arm and half of his head gone after surviving a planet's explosion but this isn't durability this is survival, the attacks damaged him he just survived long enough for his father king cold to find him and repair him, if goku's body was in the same state he would long be dead. But I still say super saiyan 1 goku is alot more durable not just because he is so much stronger but because he was taking frieza's best energy waves that could destroy planet's with not even a scratch being inflicted. But they where at the time they fought depicted as even when frieza was at 100% so there isn't a way to know.

Wiktionary defines 'durability' as: "Permanence by virtue of the power to resist stress or force."

Dictionary.com says: "able to resist wear, decay, etc., well; lasting; enduring.

And Oxford dictionaries says: "the ability to withstand wear, pressure, or damage."



So unless you guys are using video-game stats like "survival" or "constitution" level a la Fallout and KotOR, then durability is a synonym. And Frieza has shown more proficiency at withstanding damage than SSJ Goku. Beaten up by a superior opponent, cut in half, blasted in to making a duck face, and having a planet explode around him. And left to float in space with no help or medical equipment for who knows how long exactly.

Fuzzy definitions of "durability" aside, the answer to this should have been obvious: Frieza.

Originally posted by Galan007
Wow, all you did here is attempt to disregard character statements in favor of your own opinion (your opinion isn't canon, btw.) That said, there is really no reason to pick apart every single portion of your retort. Instead, I'll just highlight the meat and potatoes that you dodged, once more...

Supreme Kai stated that Bibidi created Buu. We never saw this creation take place in the manga, so does that mean Kai was just talking BS/hyperbole? Obviously not--- despite never seeing Buu being created, we, the readers, were intended to take the Kai's statements regarding Buu as 100% factual. Same thing when Frieza stated that the easily destroyed the planet Vegeta in his base form. We never saw it happen in the manga, but it was clearly intended to be taken as fact... The EXACT same logic also crosses over to Vegeta's statement--- Vegeta stated that his Galick Gun was powerful enough to destroy the earth, and we were NEVER given a legitimate reason to question the validity of his statement. By that point in the battle, it was quite obvious that Vegeta was desperate enough to do anything he needed to do, if it meant defeating Goku. The Galick Gun was his last resort.

Aside from the above, there is not one literary medium (especially DBZ) in which the reader is intended to doubt statements made by key characters, without having a damn good(ie. canon) reason to do so. It is even more faulty for a reader to pick and choose which character statements they accept as fact and which they don't--- especially in a case where every character statement is written by the same author. All you're doing right now is digging for reasons to try and devalue Vegeta's statement with all your 'maybes' and 'what ifs', because you don't want to accept the fact that a guy with a PL of 18,000 was capable of planet-busting. Your opinion, however, doesn't supersede the fact that Akira clearly intended Saiyan Saga Vegeta to be on that level, HENCE THE NARRATIVE HE PERSONALLY WROTE IN THAT SCENE. Character statements in published literature>>>your opinion. End of story.


At any rate, this will be my last post on the topic. Frankly, anyone who would argue with the above facts (yes, everything I stated=fact) is trollishly illogical, and certainly not worth wasting my time on.
And all you did was pretty much fail to address the main points that defeat your argument and replace that with some personal 'youre wrong Im right' lines..

Freeza /destroyed/ planet Vegeta. Past tense. Its not a boast or something said in rage.. its happened. Freeza destroyed planet Vegeta because its been destroyed, several people that were there back it up and we see that Freeza can blow up planets. Name one of these that Vegeta does. You're comparing something that has happened to something that has not happened, thats not the same logic.

So its canon that Vegeta wanted to kill himself? You can prove that the Vegeta that was scared of being killed and was totally fine with escaping to come back another time wanted to kill himself in that attack? And seriously.. /my/ maybes and what ifs? Who's the one saying that Vegeta can do something we havnt seen and calling it a legit canon fact? Don't ignore the 6 legit, canon points against I gave you.


I don't give a dame if he ends up a planet buster here or not, no shits will be given. And legit feats and canon things > statements with nothing to back it up. I mean if you can prove that Vegeta was suicidal here than hey, go for it. But it'd futile as we see how desperate he was to escape :/

Fact: Vegeta was insane, screaming and raging.. really the best person to take facts from?
Fact: Vegeta did /not/ want to die, proven.
Fact: Destroying the plane would kill him.
Seeing the problem?

Originally posted by Galan007
Vegeta and Nappa had a full-on conversation in space after Arlia was destroyed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnqtg0bte6w
So for the purposes of the anime, they were definitely capable of breathing in space.

Somehow conversing in space isn't the same thing as sustained living in space.

Keep in mind *humans* can survive minutes of vacuum, we just can't do much during the time.

Originally posted by BloodRain
And all you did was pretty much fail to address the main points that defeat your argument and replace that with some personal 'youre wrong Im right' lines..

Freeza /destroyed/ planet Vegeta. Past tense. Its not a boast or something said in rage.. its happened. Freeza destroyed planet Vegeta because its been destroyed, several people that were there back it up and we see that Freeza can blow up planets. Name one of these that Vegeta does. You're comparing something that has happened to something that has not happened, thats not the same logic.

So its canon that Vegeta wanted to kill himself? You can prove that the Vegeta that was scared of being killed and was totally fine with escaping to come back another time wanted to kill himself in that attack? And seriously.. /my/ maybes and what ifs? Who's the one saying that Vegeta can do something we havnt seen and calling it a legit canon fact? Don't ignore the 6 legit, canon points against I gave you.


I don't give a dame if he ends up a planet buster here or not, no shits will be given. And legit feats and canon things > statements with nothing to back it up. I mean if you can prove that Vegeta was suicidal here than hey, go for it. But it'd futile as we see how desperate he was to escape :/

Fact: Vegeta was insane, screaming and raging.. really the best person to take facts from?
Fact: Vegeta did /not/ want to die, proven.
Fact: Destroying the plane would kill him.
Seeing the problem? Nice rant.

Regardless, character statements >>> your opinion. Akira Toriyama having Vegeta state that he could have destroyed the earth >>> your opinion that he was speaking in hyperbole.

Period/end of story.

Originally posted by Q99
Somehow conversing in space isn't the same thing as sustained living in space.

Keep in mind *humans* can survive minutes of vacuum, we just can't do much during the time. The clip shows Vegeta and Nappa talking a bit in space outside of their pods---then Vegeta charges up/blasts Arlia---then we see the planet explode, with Nappa talking in the background---then they carry on a several-sentence-long monologue, before enthusiastically chuckling at the carnage they'd caused---then the scene ends.

Clearly the rigors of space(this includes not only an airless vacuum, but temperature extremes as well) weren't intended to have an affect on Saiyans in the anime.

Originally posted by Galan007

The clip shows Vegeta and Nappa talking a bit in space outside of their pods---then Vegeta charges up/blasts Arlia---then we see the planet explode, with Nappa talking in the background---then they carry on a several-sentence-long monologue, before enthusiastically chuckling at the carnage they'd caused---then the scene ends.

Clearly the rigors of space(this includes not only an airless vacuum, but temperature extremes as well) weren't intended to have an affect on Saiyans in the anime.

Yes, but the problem is not toughness to survive the vacuum, it's oxygen.

Surviving a couple minutes in vacuum is no big thing.

It's all about intention. Where the anime is concerned, it's quite obvious to me that Vegeta/Nappa (and by proxy, the entire Saiyan race) were intended to be able to exist in space unaided. Heck, Bardock had a full-on war with Frieza's henchman in space, and didn't even skip a beat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzNuaG1f2cQ

The intention is pretty clear, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
Nice rant.

Regardless, character statements >>> your opinion. Akira Toriyama having Vegeta state that he could have destroyed the earth >>> your opinion that he was speaking in hyperbole.

Period/end of story.


Afraid Galan007 is correct.


Here is the canon reason why Galan007 is correct:

Roshi could destroy the moon with a power level less than 200. Piccolo could destroy the moon with a power level of less than 1000.


It should stand to reason that Vegeta with a power level of 18,000 could easily destroy the earth....just as easily as Piccolo and Roshi destroyed the moon.


My opinion>>>>>>>>>>Toriyama's opinion>>>>>>>>>>>dragonball character statements>>>>>>>>other KMC poster's opinions.


mwhahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa

I'm still waiting on you to show the evidence that states that what Roshi did to the moon is sufficient or near sufficient to bust Earth.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Afraid Galan007 is correct.


Here is the canon reason why Galan007 is correct:

Roshi could destroy the moon with a power level less than 200. Piccolo could destroy the moon with a power level of less than 1000.


It should stand to reason that Vegeta with a power level of 18,000 could easily destroy the earth....just as easily as Piccolo and Roshi destroyed the moon.


My opinion>>>>>>>>>>Toriyama's opinion>>>>>>>>>>>dragonball character statements>>>>>>>>other KMC poster's opinions.


mwhahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa You know what? I like you.

Like you mentioned, Roshi's PL was around 180, and he was capable of destroying the moon. In comparison to the moon, the earth is roughly 4x larger in diameter, 49x larger in volume, and 81x larger in mass(that's what Google said, at least.)

That said, Saiyan Saga Vegeta had a PL of 18,000, making him 9,900%(over 9,000!!!) more powerful than Roshi! So yeah, character statements + a bit of logical deduction, should cement the notion that Saiyan Saga Vegeta was definitely a planet buster. There are no facts (opinion=/=fact) that contradict his claim.

It requires a thousand times more energy to destroy the Earth, lol.

Originally posted by Galan007
Saiyan Saga Vegeta had a PL of 18,000, making him 9,900%(over 9,000!!!) more powerful than Roshi!

Disregard the above post, Nemebro. I initially saw 'percent', not 'times' in your post.

I was gonna disregard it anyway.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I was gonna disregard it anyway. Arrogant, as always.

a.) I'd like to know where you came up with the notion that it requires 1,000x more energy to destroy earth, than it does the moon. I suspect that you are, again, trying to apply real world laws of physics to a fictional universe where many of those laws do not apply, whilst simultaneously ignoring the narrative of the story in favor of your own opinion.

b.) By your line of logic it would require a PL of 180,000 to even have a shot at destroying the earth. Given Vegeta's statement, and the fact that no contradictory evidence was given to us by Akira, that is purely unacceptable.

Originally posted by Galan007
Nice rant.

Regardless, character statements >>> your opinion. Akira Toriyama having Vegeta state that he could have destroyed the earth >>> your opinion that he was speaking in hyperbole.

Period/end of story.

Yeah its called a reply, and seeing as youre only reply is "Nah Im right lol thumbs".. taking it that you cant actually prove what I asked for or counter anything I said.. which sucks cause I need something to debate :c


Oh yeah..
Statement1- Freeza/Saiyans admit that they cant survive in space.
Statement2- Vegeta admits that he wants to live and is more than willing to flee from a defeat =/= kamikaze instead of losing.

So.. Akira's backing me up? :T

Originally posted by BloodRain
Yeah its called a reply, and seeing as youre only reply is "Nah Im right lol thumbs".. taking it that you cant actually prove what I asked for or counter anything I said.. which sucks cause I need something to debate :c


Oh yeah..
Statement1- Freeza/Saiyans admit that they cant survive in space.
Statement2- Vegeta admits that he wants to live and is more than willing to flee from a defeat =/= kamikaze instead of losing.

So.. Akira's backing me up? :T I don't need to prove a negative, friend.

I have character statements from the manga itself(as well as the anime) supporting me. You have unsubstantiated personal opinion 'supporting' you. There's nothing to debate here.

why is this thread getting so much attension, didnt we agree on freiza being more durable

the problem is people who use math too much and people who make too big of posts...i thought this thread already had the needed answers...its like a disease...Math-o-Posterisis

Originally posted by BloodRain
Fact: Vegeta was insane, screaming and raging.. really the best person to take facts from?
Fact: Vegeta did /not/ want to die, proven.
Fact: Destroying the plane would kill him.
Seeing the problem?

Could be explained by him wanting to kill Goku so badly that he didn't care the costs. And he was afraid of dying before he killed Goku.

Or he was pushed to the edge in battle but after his attack was bested he calmed down and saw how foolish it was to place himself in danger like that a thought up a new plan.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't need to prove a negative, friend.

I have character statements from the manga itself(as well as the anime) supporting me. You have unsubstantiated personal opinion 'supporting' you. There's nothing to debate here.
You didnt prove anything in your replies.. didnt post anything new, expand on point or counter anything I said besides ignoring it or shrugging it off.

I just gave you in-canon proof that Vegeta wasn't suicidal on the edge of defeat = didnt want to die = wasnt going to blow up the planet. Dont with the same evidence you use. So, yeah. Characters are on my side.

Originally posted by juggerman
Could be explained by him wanting to kill Goku so badly that he didn't care the costs. And he was afraid of dying before he killed Goku.

Or he was pushed to the edge in battle but after his attack was bested he calmed down and saw how foolish it was to place himself in danger like that a thought up a new plan.
With his pride and rage, I find it hard to believe that killing himself would even be an option. He even shows concern with just lowering his PL. If the guy worries about merely being weaker, self-destruction seems a bit far off. And he already had his pre-planned strategy incase he needed it.

What I dont get is how people can look at how insane Vegeta is here all the way til his scream after the blast.. people can see the man snap and still take what he says in this state as 100% fact and not just the words of a mad man.

Christ, just because Vegeta was pissed, doesn't mean he was speaking in hyperbole (srsly). In fact, he was SO pissed at that point that he was clearly ready to do ANYTHING he needed to do to defeat Goku(including destroying the earth, and possibly himself in the process.)

Stop acting as though your personal opinion supersedes character statements. It's ridiculous. Akira intended for Vegeta to have sufficient power to destroy the earth, hence the very specific verbiage he scripted into that scene. End of story.

OMG FREIZA IS MORE DURABLE, THEIR RACE IS MEANT TO SURVIVE INJURIES AND MASS AMOUNTS OF DAMAGE WHEN SAIYANS ARE BRUTE WARRIORS.

UPPER CASE WILL CEMENT MY POINT.

Originally posted by Luffygear4
OMG FREIZA IS MORE DURABLE, THEIR RACE IS MEANT TO SURVIVE INJURIES AND MASS AMOUNTS OF DAMAGE WHEN SAIYANS ARE BRUTE WARRIORS.

What injury did Frieza survive that Goku couldn't survive and please don't say being cut in half because he was on the ground "near death" when that happened and Goku gave him energy so that he would live. If it wasn't for Goku sympathy, Frieza would have died. So what other showing are you using because using that logic, Piccolo is more durable than Goku since he survived being splattered in hundreds of pieces. Get out of here.

Goku isn't Dende...giving energy isn't healing...Frieza still would of lived if goku didn't share his energy because after he gave frieza energy frieza attacked him but goku saw it and counter-blasted him back...that meant frieza was less instead of more after goku shared...

Originally posted by Galan007
Christ, just because Vegeta was pissed, doesn't mean he was speaking in hyperbole (srsly). In fact, he was SO pissed at that point that he was clearly ready to do ANYTHING he needed to do to defeat Goku(including destroying the earth, and possibly himself in the process.)

Stop acting as though your personal opinion supersedes character statements. It's ridiculous. Akira intended for Vegeta to have sufficient power to destroy the earth, hence the very specific verbiage he scripted into that scene. End of story.
Yeah but you're using the words of insanity as fact even if things in the manga oppose it. How many times have rage-threats ever been taken at face value in anything else, fiction or irl?

Theres no proof that he would do 'anything' to win.. none, while theres is proof that he wouldnt go that far. Canon evidence that Vegeta isn't suicidal when on the edge of defeat = wouldn't want to die when about to lose = wasn't going to blow up the planet and kill himself. So Akira didn't intend squat, same type of proof you used.

Originally posted by carver9
What injury did Frieza survive that Goku couldn't survive and please don't say being cut in half because he was on the ground "near death" when that happened and Goku gave him energy so that he would live. If it wasn't for Goku sympathy, Frieza would have died. So what other showing are you using because using that logic, Piccolo is more durable than Goku since he survived being splattered in hundreds of pieces. Get out of here.

Goku could not survive being cut in half. No matter if evergy was given to him or not he would die. The only reason Goku lending energy happened is so Frieza wouldn't be killed by the EXPLOSION OF NAMEK not so he wouldn't die from his injuries.

But even if that was the reason Goku gave him the energy it still wouldn't matter since Goku had no clue Frieza could survive such horrific wounds. He was nearly powerless and took a monster blast from an enraged Goku then took a planet exploding in his face at an even weaker state. The let's not forget floating in space with half a head for Kami knows how long before being rescued.

Goku/Saiyans die from hole being blown thru them. He could never survive being cut in half let alone everything else Frieza endured.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Yeah but you're using the words of insanity as fact even if things in the manga oppose it. How many times have rage-threats ever been taken at face value in anything else, fiction or irl? Again: a character being angry doesn't mean we automatically start doubting their statements--- we have to be given a legitimate/canon reason from the author before we start questioning what they said... We can't just start doubting characters because we don't like what they're saying. srsly

Originally posted by BloodRain
Theres no proof that he would do 'anything' to win.. none, Considering Vegeta actually LAUNCHED an attack that he stated would turn the earth to ASH, I think it's quite apparent that he WAS willing to do anything to win.

If I drop a nuke on a city, clearly I am willing to destroy that city. This isn't rocket science.

Originally posted by BloodRain
while theres is proof that he wouldnt go that far. Canon evidence that Vegeta isn't suicidal when on the edge of defeat = wouldn't want to die when about to lose = wasn't going to blow up the planet and kill himself. So Akira didn't intend squat, same type of proof you used. In this particular scene, Vegeta stated that his attack would destroy the earth--- he then launched said attack. So yeah, he WAS willing to destroy the earth, as evident by his statements and actions.

At this point you're purposefully diverging from the happenings of the actual story, just to make your unsubstantiated opinion seem more valid. This 'tactic' might work on others, but I see right through it. You'll simply never convince me to regard your opinion in higher esteem than statements/actions from the story itself. Sorry.

And didn't Goku confirm Vegeta's statement?

Not that I recall. He just felt the need to overpower Vegeta's blast with his Kamehameha, and send it into space.

Originally posted by Galan007
Arrogant, as always.

Arrogant? No, just superior.



It is not opinion that Vegeta was never shown to bust a planet at that level.

And yes, IRL, it requires a thousand times the energy according to their respective Gravitational Binding Energies.

If we don't attempt to quantify fiction through IRL practices, we are left only to use differing reader interpretations. Which is stupid.



You're making the assumption that he was going to blow it up based on a few vague statements.

"I've had enough of this planet! I'll turn you to ashes along with it!"

"Save yourself and doom the Earth!"

"Prepare to die with this world you love!!!"

All from the official English translation of the manga.

None of this is linguistically explicit regarding actually blowing the planet up, the first one comes closest, but relies on more hyperbolic phrases than the others do (Blowing it up would not turn it to ashes lol).

You are relying on a character statement, one by a character not in the right mind.

Oh, and power level will not and never has made an argument. It doesn't scale linearly, or barely at all.

Hence why base form Goku seems incapable of lifting 40 tons, lol.

Originally posted by Galan007

How does launching it prove it would? You can get mad and threaten to kill someone, start the fight even.. does that mean youll actually kill? It means nothing.


First off, any statement alone in questionable, always has been, and one where the guy saying it is nuts? If we believe him then we'd have to believe that Yu Yu Hakuso demons are planet busters (mountain at best), One Piece character having planet busting punches (City level), FMA and Shaman King having certain omnipotant characters (no), orrr Naruto having light speed (from a sub-sonic character), Sun+ temp flames (nowhere near) and "flatten a mountain with a flick of its tail" (Town level strength, less with tails).. clear cases of hyperbole, what makes Vegeta such a special case? /now that you can call ranting :b/

Nah no tactics man, just wanting proof. I mean.. I got Vegeta admitting he's pro-life in the face of a loss (statement) that doubles as playing to his in-character behaviour, reasons why he wouldn't (pride, revenge, not suicidal), and even scaling (eg He used a sub-planet level attack (confirmed by himself and Trunks) to destroy part of Cell, while Goku's apparent planet+ attack only charred Vegeta)... so these things Vs Something a guy said in an obvious fit of rage.

Originally posted by NemeBro
"I've had enough of this planet! I'll turn you to ashes along with it!" This is not a vague statement in the slightest. Vegeta outright stated that his attack was sufficient to turn the planet into ashes. If you aren't able to comprehend the fact that turning a planet to ash = destroying said planet, then you should probably start reading Dr. Seuss-level material and begin working back up. It really is that simple.

Vegeta stated his attack was sufficient to destroy the earth. We were never given a *canon* reason by the author to doubt that comment. He then launched said attack at Goku. Goku overpowered it with a Kamehameha, and sent that energy into space.

Those are the only facts we know. Don't argue with them... It's just silly.

"I've had enough of your shit! I'll destroy you"

Got that from my neighbour last week.. sweet old lady.

Originally posted by Galan007
This is not a vague statement in the slightest. Vegeta outright stated that his attack was sufficient to turn the planet into ashes. If you aren't able to comprehend the fact that turning a planet to ash = destroying said planet, then you should probably start reading Dr. Seuss-level material and begin working back up. It really is that simple.

Vegeta stated his attack was sufficient to destroy the earth. We were never given a *canon* reason by the author to doubt that comment. He then launched said attack at Goku. Goku overpowered it with a Kamehameha, and sent that energy into space.

Those are the only facts we know. Don't argue with them... It's just silly.

Or it could have meant that he'd render the surface of the planet a barren wasteland, inhospitable for human life.

Or it could have been an enraged, unhinged character making a claim he can't technically back up.

Why are you only willing to interpret "Turning the planet to ash" into meaning "blow it up into irreparable shards of cosmic dust"?

Character statements do not make an argument.

Originally posted by BloodRain
How does launching it prove it would? You can get mad and threaten to kill someone, start the fight even.. does that mean youll actually kill? It means nothing.


First off, any statement alone in questionable, always has been, and one where the guy saying it is nuts? If we believe him then we'd have to believe that Yu Yu Hakuso demons are planet busters (mountain at best), One Piece character having planet busting punches (City level), FMA and Shaman King having certain omnipotant characters (no), orrr Naruto having light speed (from a sub-sonic character), Sun+ temp flames (nowhere near) and "flatten a mountain with a flick of its tail" (Town level strength, less with tails).. clear cases of hyperbole, what makes Vegeta such a special case? /now that you can call ranting :b/

Nah no tactics man, just wanting proof. I mean.. I got Vegeta admitting he's pro-life in the face of a loss (statement) that doubles as playing to his in-character behaviour, reasons why he wouldn't (pride, revenge, not suicidal), and even scaling (eg He used a sub-planet level attack (confirmed by himself and Trunks) to destroy part of Cell, while Goku's apparent planet+ attack only charred Vegeta)... so these things Vs Something a guy said in an obvious fit of rage. Using 'evidence' from other arcs is extremely faulty... Especially when Vegeta's demeanor changed over the years. Heck even during the Frieza Saga, Vegeta had no qualms with putting ALL of his energy into a single attack and launching it at final form Frieza... Had Frieza not deflected said attack, it surely would have destroyed Namek, given that Vegeta's PL would have been WELL above base form Frieza(who was capable of effortlessly destroying planets.)

Furthermore, in the Cell instance you mentioned we were TOLD by the author that Vegeta purposefully made his attack weaker, as to not destroy the earth. We were told no such thing by the author during the Saiyan Saga. Thanks for helping prove my point that the writer TELLS US what he wants to be known as fact.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Or it could have meant that he'd render the surface of the planet a barren wasteland, inhospitable for human life.

Or it could have been an enraged, unhinged character making a claim he can't technically back up.

Why are you only willing to interpret "Turning the planet to ash" into meaning "blow it up into irreparable shards of cosmic dust"?

Character statements do not make an argument. "turn the planet to ashes" =/= "rendering the surface of the planet a barren wasteland, inhospitable for human life." Or to make it even easier: "the planet" =/= "the surface of the planet".

Stop adding your opinion to his blanket statement. You're making this much harder than it needs to be.

Originally posted by Galan007
"turn the planet to ashes" =/= "rendering the surface of the planet a barren wasteland, inhospitable for human life." Or to make it even easier: "the planet" =/= "the surface of the planet".

Stop adding your opinion to his blanket statement. You're making this much harder than it needs to be.

It is not opinion that the first character we see capable of any form of planetbusting is final form Freeza.

And Vegeta made his attack smaller, not weaker, in the Cell saga.

Originally posted by NemeBro
It is not opinion that the first character we see capable of any form of planetbusting is final form Freeza. That doesn't mean final form Frieza is weakest being capable of doing so... Unless you want to act like he didn't destroy the planet Vegeta in his base form. Or better yet: unless you want to act like the minimum PL required to destroy a planet is 60,000,000.

Get real.

Originally posted by NemeBro
And Vegeta made his attack smaller, not weaker, in the Cell saga. In that case, smaller meant weaker. That's why Vegeta's attack didn't end up destroying the earth, like Trunks originally thought it would.

Originally posted by Galan007

Yes because you can't compare a manga with itself... now youre just ignoring Akira's own plot
And its more interesting that no one mentioned the planet or anything like that :I And Freeza admits that he attacks the core, like how thats the only way he could do so even at his final forms 70% strength. Unless Vegeta used the same kind of attack that is, cause if a final 70% Freeza cant perfectly do it, how will Vegeta?


Yes by characters that are not only now familiarized with such attacks, but are considerably stronger than a planet buster like Freeza.. where were you going with this if not to highlight that every other scene has evidence besides the one youre supporting?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Yes because you can't compare a manga with itself... now youre just ignoring Akira's own plot You've perfected the art of red herrings. Anyway, you stated that Vegeta would have never actually destroyed the earth, because he wasn't willing to die. Even though a character stating something+the writer giving us no reason to doubt said statement, should be more than enough to discredit your opinion... Here is even more evidence to the contrary.

Here we see Vegeta get pissed off (not unlike he was against Goku) and attack Frieza with a blast containing his "full power". In fact, Vegeta put so much of his power into this attack that Piccolo stated it would extinguish his ki all together:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772053/db26_076.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772054/db26_077.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772055/db26_078.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772056/db26_079.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772057/db26_080.gif.html
Now, at that point in the story Vegeta had already received a Zenkai after recovering from Krillin's attack.

This is important because before Vegeta even received said Zenkai he was already on par with base form Frieza:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772241/DB295-11.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772243/DB295-12.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772245/DB295-13.jpg.html

And as we know, Frieza destroyed the planet Vegeta (and all of the Saiyans) "EASILY" in his base form:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772060/DB296-02.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772444/DB296-03.jpg.html

Frieza later retells the story of when he destroyed the Saiyan planet, and guess what? He's in his base form in the flashback:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772058/db26_094.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14772059/db26_095.gif.html

The above statements/flashbacks perfectly coincide with what we saw happen in the anime:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcGtUEHzk9s
(0:40)

Point being: if base form Frieza was capable of destroying a planet with an insignificant expenditure of energy, then post-Zenkai Vegeta(who was certainly more powerful than base form Frieza) could undoubtedly destroy a planet with a blast containing his "full power". Not rocket science.

So there is yet another instance in which Vegeta became enraged, and was willing to destroy the entire planet if it meant beating his foe.

Originally posted by BloodRain
And its more interesting that no one mentioned the planet or anything like that :I And Freeza admits that he attacks the core, like how thats the only way he could do so even at his final forms 70% strength.

Unless Vegeta used the same kind of attack that is, cause if a final 70% Freeza cant perfectly do it, how will Vegeta?
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/14772239_db27_104.gif

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/14772240_db27_105.gif

Frieza didn't destroy Namek in one fell swoop on purpose.... Or do you believe a PL >60,000,000 is barely sufficient to destroy a planet, when a PL of 530,000 destroyed a planet effortlessly..?

Tbh, you've really ceased making sense, and seem to be arguing just to argue at this point. During the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta became enraged that a 'low level' Saiyan was defeating him, so he was ready to do anything to win (inc. destroying the entire earth.) I know he was prepared to destroy the earth, because he stated that his Galick Gun was powerful enough to do so, and then he actually fired the attack at Goku/the earth. As if that wasn't already enough proof, I've now shown you yet another instance from a different saga, in which Vegeta became enraged, packed ALL of his energy into a single attack, and fired it at Frieza... An attack that would've undoubtedly destroyed the planet, had Frieza not deflected it.

Evidence from the manga/anime >>> your opinion. I've no reason to indulge you any longer, as any subsequent post I make would simply be to refer you back to this post. Have fun.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Yes because you can't compare a manga with itself... now youre just ignoring Akira's own plot
And its more interesting that no one mentioned the planet or anything like that :I And Freeza admits that he attacks the core, like how thats the only way he could do so even at his final forms 70% strength. Unless Vegeta used the same kind of attack that is, cause if a final 70% Freeza cant perfectly do it, how will Vegeta?


Yes by characters that are not only now familiarized with such attacks, but are considerably stronger than a planet buster like Freeza.. where were you going with this if not to highlight that every other scene has evidence besides the one youre supporting?

The Spirit bomb taxed him, that's why he couldn't destroy Namek. Frieza was far away from being complete during that instance.

I take my statement back, per Frieza own mouth, he could have destroyed Namek, even during his weekend state.

Originally posted by carver9
The Spirit bomb taxed him, that's why he couldn't destroy Namek. Frieza was far away from being complete during that instance.
I know that's why I said his 70% self (and was meant to add in worn out and S.bomb damaged) couldn't perfectly destroy Namek.

Originally posted by Galan007 Vegeta-go-boom
Red herrings? You admitted to ignoring later things for earlier showings, even though later > earlier.
No doubt besides him shitting himself in the face of his own death and being more than willing to flee? Two things you said cemented him as wanting to die?

Yet another is.. one? And I like how you can get evidence for another claim but still refuse to back up the first..

Tell me, what attack did Freeza use back then? Was it a single-boom-gone thing or did he make the planet explode like we know he's capable of? If the latter, as we know he does this stuff as shown in the manga, what does that have to do with Vegeta's normal blast? If the former, prove it as thats what youd need.


Originally posted by Galan007 Freeza-go-boom
Very nice, you read through the chapter but obviously avoided posting Freeza saying he lacked the power admitting that his attack wasn't strong enough to do what he wanted.

70% and damaged Freeza attempts to blow up the planet, fails by his own admittance but still manages to get a 5 min core-explosion delay. That alone shows what power is needed for an instant planet bust, not like his base forms attack that can only be assumed to be the core explosion attack.. unless you believe that base can do what 70% form is proven to be unable to do?

You're still saying 70%. He wasn't at that percentage since it took "all" of his power to escape the bomb. Then, he admitted he wasn't trying to destroy planet Namek during his initial attack. Piccolo even admitted Frieza could destroy Namek instantly. Lol...what's so hard to believe on base form Frieza being able to destroy a planet? If Roshi can turn a moon to dust (which puts his blast at moon+ strength since there wasn't a sign of rubble etc...), I feel safe at saying Frieza could annihilate planets with ease...even at his weakest.

I'm not saying he was 'using' 70% of his full power, I'm just saying that he was in his 70% state.

He said he was going to destroy the planet then admits that it "wasn't strong enough" to do it, "..but.." it still managed to reach the core.

Roshi being an outliner feat (he had to use Max power just to blow up a small mountain, and stronger characters do much less), and yes from looking at all of Freeza's feats he is obviously a planet buster.. just not the instant annihilation variety until his stronger form. If you want to tell me that he does the same core thing in his other forms then fine, but the only way he could easily flick away planets would be if his base form could muster up an attack above what a state where he was still above anyone where besides SS!Goku.. because you cant tell me that Freeza became weaker than his base self. PL 18,000 Vegeta can apparently planet bust but a PL250,000-74,000,000 Freeza admits that he couldn't one-shot Namek in a weakened, but far above anyone else state?

Originally posted by BloodRain
I know that's why I said his 70% self (and was meant to add in worn out and S.bomb damaged) couldn't perfectly destroy Namek.


Red herrings? You admitted to ignoring later things for earlier showings, even though later > earlier.
No doubt besides him shitting himself in the face of his own death and being more than willing to flee? Two things you said cemented him as wanting to die?

Yet another is.. one? And I like how you can get evidence for another claim but still refuse to back up the first..

Tell me, what attack did Freeza use back then? Was it a single-boom-gone thing or did he make the planet explode like we know he's capable of? If the latter, as we know he does this stuff as shown in the manga, what does that have to do with Vegeta's normal blast? If the former, prove it as thats what youd need.



Very nice, you read through the chapter but obviously avoided posting Freeza saying he lacked the power admitting that his attack wasn't strong enough to do what he wanted.

70% and damaged Freeza attempts to blow up the planet, fails by his own admittance but still manages to get a 5 min core-explosion delay. That alone shows what power is needed for an instant planet bust, not like his base forms attack that can only be assumed to be the core explosion attack.. unless you believe that base can do what 70% form is proven to be unable to do? See my former post. Your incessant dodges and red herrings were addressed there. Thoroughly.

Also, lol @ the notion that a 70% powered final form Frieza (PL >60,000,000) would have a difficult time destroying a planet, when base form Frieza did so with a very minimal effort, or "easily" as he put it... Heh, what a gas.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I'm still waiting on you to show the evidence that states that what Roshi did to the moon is sufficient or near sufficient to bust Earth.


Moon was vaporized. Energy required to completely vaporize the moon is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the energy required to bust the earth.



My balls: suck them.

Originally posted by NemeBro
It requires a thousand times more energy to destroy the Earth, lol.

Wrong. 81 times the energy in the form of vaporization: mass is the variable required to overcome.



Originally posted by NemeBro
It is not opinion that the first character we see capable of any form of planetbusting is final form Freeza.

And Vegeta made his attack smaller, not weaker, in the Cell saga.



Wrong.

That would be Roshi. The moon is a planet sized satellite of earth. Moon counts.


Again, my balls, please.




Holy shit, I broke the thread with too much victory posting. I need to take a nap...just too much power in these hand of mine.

+1 for dadudemon.

So you only support the application of physical laws when they support your position Galan?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Moon was vaporized. Energy required to completely vaporize the moon is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the energy required to bust the earth.

Provide your source.



Provide your source.



Only semantically. In forum use, "planetbuster" is usually defined as capable of busting an Earth-sized or larger planet for convenience (To differentiate it from "moonbusting". And yes, this practice originates from the ODB, but it is so widespread surely you'd forgive an old dog for using it?

Now, you may not have known that is the way it is often used and the way I used it, and I won't fault you for that.

Like I've stated before...if Piccolo at a power level of 350 can destroy a moon with a casual blast and Roshi with a power level of 130 can destroy a moon...hell, not destroy but turn it to dust...I wouldn't even be surprised if Raditz could lay waste to a planet. This is non sense to argue Frieza being capable of destroying a planet instantly when he is significantly more powerful than both Piccolo and Roshi. Whomever believes anything different is either lowballing DBZ characters or, hell, that's all I can think of, you are lowballing them. Frieza already laid waste to Planet Vegeta, that's all the proof he needs and this was at his weakest state...get over it and move on.

I had always thought that frieza didn't instagib Namek was because he rushed it and hoping that Goku didn't intercept the shot, which is why he didn't go for the Death Ball technique he used to smite Planet Vegeta... Could be just me though...

Well first form Freeza is a planet buster, that's pretty clear.

Originally posted by NemeBro
So you only support the application of physical laws when they support your position Galan?



Originally posted by NemeBro
Provide your source.

My source is dadudemon: that is all the source you should ever need (I am serious).

However, if you need to know how in the world I know it takes far more energy to vaporize a large mass vs. just blowing it apart into large bits (like Frieza did to Namek)...you should use google instead of asking questions like that.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Provide your source.

My source is dadudemon: that is all the source you should ever need (I am serious).

However, if you need to know how in the world I know it takes far more energy to vaporize a large mass vs. just blowing it apart into large bits (like Frieza did to Namek)...you should use google instead of asking questions like that.


The better question is this: why don't you prove your point, first?

Can you prove me wrong with SCIENCE?

Here, take this: prove that the energy required to vaporize the entire planet is not greater than the energy required to blast it into large bits...if you disagree with me, of course. If you don't, what are you making the fuss about?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Only semantically. In forum use, "planetbuster" is usually defined as capable of busting an Earth-sized or larger planet for convenience (To differentiate it from "moonbusting". And yes, this practice originates from the ODB, but it is so widespread surely you'd forgive an old dog for using it?

Uhhh...let us not go with what a bunch of uneducated, overestimating (or under), retards use and let us stick with science. Our moon, if orbiting a star in a "regular" orbit, is large enough and massive enough to be considered a planet and not a lost satellite or large asteroid. To drive this example home, Titan is larger than Mercury.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Now, you may not have known that is the way it is often used and the way I used it, and I won't fault you for that.

Oh no, I am most certainly aware of the ignorance perpetuated on forums. You were probably not aware that the moon is incorrectly treated as "non-planet sized" on forums.

Originally posted by BloodRain
I know that's why I said his 70% self (and was meant to add in worn out and S.bomb damaged) couldn't perfectly destroy Namek.


Red herrings? You admitted to ignoring later things for earlier showings, even though later > earlier.
No doubt besides him shitting himself in the face of his own death and being more than willing to flee? Two things you said cemented him as wanting to die?

Yet another is.. one? And I like how you can get evidence for another claim but still refuse to back up the first..

Tell me, what attack did Freeza use back then? Was it a single-boom-gone thing or did he make the planet explode like we know he's capable of? If the latter, as we know he does this stuff as shown in the manga, what does that have to do with Vegeta's normal blast? If the former, prove it as thats what youd need.



Very nice, you read through the chapter but obviously avoided posting admitting that his attack wasn't strong enough to do what he wanted.

70% and damaged Freeza attempts to blow up the planet, fails by his own admittance but still manages to get a 5 min core-explosion delay. That alone shows what power is needed for an instant planet bust, not like his base forms attack that can only be assumed to be the core explosion attack.. unless you believe that base can do what 70% form is proven to be unable to do? That's a mistranslation in the original japanese frieza says this:



That's Herms translation.

Originally posted by NemeBro
It is not opinion that the first character we see capable of any form of planetbusting is final form Freeza.

And Vegeta made his attack smaller, not weaker, in the Cell saga. Are you trying to be stupid frieza in his first form was repeatedly shown destroying planet vegeta, and where supposed to side with your opinions over cold hard facts. And are you forgetting what Vegeta did along the way to earth, he destroyed a planet he and Nappa visited with just his two fingers, what else are we supposed to back up our statements on other than what is shown and stated in the series where arguing about. You say your superior not arrogant but you are the only one calling yourself superior which is the definition of arrogance.

I love how a rhetorical question turns into a a serious debate.... these Superman fanboys I swear....

Shut up.