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In three all-out battles, one on Ruusan, the next in the Death Star Throne Room, finally in the Geonosian arena. Who wins each round and why?

Bane has no orbalisks.

I don't think I can weigh in on this fairly as the only novel portrayals of Vader that I have are from TFU, and everything else is from the films and guidebooks.

Definitely want to see what others have to say.

Vader probably can't penetrate Bane's defenses.

Bane has a much better Force showing, imo.

I see Bane taking it.

REMOVED

Bane for sure.

Reported. You were warned. >:O)

Hey!

Originally posted by Pwned
Bane has a much better Force showing, imo.

I don't think so. Most of Bane's uber-feats owed, at least in part, to orbalisks and dark side nexuses. On neutral ground, Vader has consistently higher showings. Bane might still wreck him in lightsaber combat, though.

What are Vaders 'consistently higher showings' exactly?

He threw some lunchboxes at Luke in ESB, iirc.

A comprehensive response with scans/quotes will have to come later, I'm playing Halo 4 atm. If you want to get a head start though, his feats in TFU2 across all platforms are pretty noteworthy.

Halo 4 is so two weeks ago.

It's being a pain in the patooty, if I do say so myself.

I completed my solo Legendary run last week. Wasn't' too bad. -flex-

Cortana's so adorable.

No, I'm playing War Games, foo.

I love Vader so much, but even I can't stand behind Lord Vader on this one. Unless this is Bane before the ending of PoD, I don't see Vader wining. Vader's TK would still not make it a Picnic for Bane....

Do not post autoplay videos, TheOneOfMortis.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What are Vaders 'consistently higher showings' exactly?

If this discussion persists, I'm going to borrow liberally from Silver2467's exhaustive compilation of Vader!feats, but for now I'll provide some relevant ones from TFU2, which is very friendly for Vader.

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Vader Force grips a clearly combat-ready Starkiller around the 7:16 mark, who, for all his vast power, is helpless to break the choke-hold by force.

78PbQXbCoRY&feature=relmfu

His feats with the partitions beginning at the 4:04 mark and continuing on to the 4:22 mark are impressive, wrenching, destroying, and hurling them in tandem. The force with which Starkiller generates to repulse them (seen at the 4:27 mark) suggests strength to Vader's grip.

Vader goes on to collapse the elevator tower at the 4:33 mark.

mC1EhgcAwRg&feature=relmfu

Vader destroys a large section of the communications tower thrown at him by Starkiller at the 2:07 mark.

pPEwcVujTrM&feature=relmfu

Vader chokes Starkiller again at the 3:14 mark and ragdolls him at the 3:24 mark.

Seawn0wQ0P0&feature=relmfu

He ragdolls Kota at the 2:09 mark, Starkiller at the 2:38 mark and walks him back into an energy field, holding him aloft for 20 seconds.

PFMVPMVoais

At the 8:22 mark, Vader wrenches a cloning platform from its moorings and hurls it at Starkiller. To understand its size, note that Vader is standing on an identical platform and that the two had been dueling on them previously in the fight. He repeats the action twice, I think.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If this discussion persists, I'm going to borrow liberally from Silver2467's exhaustive compilation of Vader!feats, but for now I'll provide some relevant ones from TFU2, which is very friendly for Vader.

Qcgh2P3abTg&feature=relmfu

Vader Force grips a clearly combat-ready Starkiller around the 7:16 mark, who, for all his vast power, is helpless to break the choke-hold by force.

78PbQXbCoRY&feature=relmfu

His feats with the partitions beginning at the 4:04 mark and continuing on to the 4:22 mark are impressive, wrenching, destroying, and hurling them in tandem. The force with which Starkiller generates to repulse them (seen at the 4:27 mark) suggests strength to Vader's grip.

Vader goes on to collapse the elevator tower at the 4:33 mark.

mC1EhgcAwRg&feature=relmfu

Vader destroys a large section of the communications tower thrown at him by Starkiller at the 2:07 mark.

pPEwcVujTrM&feature=relmfu

Vader chokes Starkiller again at the 3:14 mark and ragdolls him at the 3:24 mark.

Seawn0wQ0P0&feature=relmfu

He ragdolls Kota at the 2:09 mark, Starkiller at the 2:38 mark and walks him back into an energy field, holding him aloft for 20 seconds.

PFMVPMVoais


At the 8:22 mark, Vader wrenches a cloning platform from its moorings and hurls it at Starkiller. To understand its size, note that Vader is standing on an identical platform and that the two had been dueling on them previously in the fight. He repeats the action twice, I think.
Thank you. So many people have forgotten all of the things Vader has done.

That's all from the Wii. I resubmit my issue over the canonicity of those events.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
He threw some lunchboxes at Luke in ESB, iirc.


lmao

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's all from the Wii.

Actually, the last one is from the Xbox 360/PS3 version of events.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I resubmit my issue over the canonicity of those events.

As I told you, Wii version of the game was released on the same day with the others. Your issue with it has no basis.

Why does that matter? I wasn't dismissing it outright or saying that its clearly non-canon, but I am questioning the canonicity.

Although TFU was originally conceived and developed as an X-box and PS3 game, so now that you mention it I do think that those platforms should take precedence. We've never talked about Starkiller fighting Darth Phobos, an event that only takes place on the Wii, PS2 and PSP versions.

I believe the novel also follows the X-box/PS3 version of events, am I correct?

I would like to see evidence that TFU2 was conceived as an Xbox 360/PS3 game. The novel has its own interpretation of events, which you took issue with (when it suited your argument to do so, that is).

All three games and the novel occupy the same level of canon.

LucasArts prioritizing PS3 dev, unleashing Force. (lol at the mistaken title)

"Multiplatform development was one of our biggest challenges," he told the jam-packed hall in the basement of the Moscone Center. After George Lucas famously urged the studio to "go build that game" upon seeing the first test reels from TFU, they began work straight away on Xbox 360 dev kits in late summer 2005--because that was all the studio had."

That does not confirm conception as an Xbox 360/PS3 game, which is what you claimed, that confirms that the Xbox 360 was the version they began first.

Isn't that.... the same thing? Duuuuuuuuuuuh.

I said it was conceived and developed as an X-box game originally. The fact that the team only had access to the X-box kits proves that they conceived it as an X-box game also, because no shit.

Again, the fact that the Xbox game was constructed first is not proof of conception as an Xbox game, especially to the extent that the other versions are less valid.

They could only make an X-box game when they were conceiving it. Frickin no shit sherlock was it conceived as an X-box game.

The Wii version was developed by a different studio, hence why the story is different. The game was originally developed by LucasArts (duh), the Wii version was developed by Krome Studios. Since it wasn't even made by Lucasarts I don't see why it should be as valid.

Therefore I win.

No, my son.
They clearly intended for the game to be multiplatform and the Xbox was the version they went with first. The games occupy the same level of canon.

You lose...

Just like Bane. excellent

By the by, your article only refers to TFU1 anyways. We're talking about TFU2.

Lol, what a non-answer. You jyst said 'no im right fvck you' and stuck your fingers in your ears.

Concession accepted. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-mmmsmug.gif

It wasn't made by the same studio or the same team and it contradicts the original games. The people who created The Force Unleashed didn't even work on the Wii version. I see no reason why it should be considered as canon as the original.

Edit: This is the same for TFUII btw.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The games occupy the same level of canon.

Hence why we should decide another way to determine canonicity.

It might have something to do with you not being the arbiter of what is and what is not canon, bro.
It's pretty obvious that you're desperate to invalidate Vader's feats to save a thoroughly outclassed Bane, here.

I mean, really, if LucasArts being the game developer is a determinant of what is and what is not canon, I guess we can toss KotOR II in the scrapheap, right?

To quote the great Count Dooku, "surely you can do better!"

stoned

Hence why we are discussing it.

No, because there are not multiple contradictory examples of Kotor II. The PC and X-box versions of it do not conflict to my knowledge. This is a case where multiple examples of the same game were released by different studios with contradictions. There needs to be a way to determine which takes precedent. Since the X-box and PS3 games were created and conceived first and were the only ones developed by the actual LucasArts team, the same team that conceived of the series and created the story in the first place, I argue that they should be the games that have canonical precedence.

I'm willing to simply ask Ush to weigh in on this if you want btw.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hence why we are discussing it.

The PC and X-box versions of it do not conflict to my knowledge. This is a case where multiple examples of the same game were released by different studios with contradictions. There needs to be a way to determine which takes precedent. Since the X-box and PS3 games were created and conceived first and were the only ones developed by the actual LucasArts team, the same team that conceived of the series and created the story in the first place, I argue that they should be the games that have canonical precedence.

While I'm flattered that you clearly hold my opinion in such high esteem, I'm not in any better position to determine what is and is not canon. Which is one of the few things that you and I have in common with the moderators here, Ushgarak included.

The novelization and all three games occupy the same level of canon. The Wii version of events is corroborated in part in the game, Starkiller's duel with Darth Phobos has basis in supplement material by Dan Wallace and the character has an entry in the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. The truth is that this issue is not nearly as clear cut as you imply, with each version being corroborated at various points.

The overwhelming fact is that while the game was completed first as an Xbox game, that doesn't mean the other games are non-canon.

You wished to disregard the novel because of its early release date, I complied. That left the games. Now, despite the fact that the Wii version was released on the same date as the others and has certain threads in common with the novel, you wish to disregard it as well. Even if I agreed to your contortionist-interpretation, that still leaves Vader with the feats of the Xbox/PS3-version, which still keeps him higher than an unaided!Bane in the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, because there are not multiple contradictory examples of Kotor II.

Are you suggesting that, if I looked hard enough, I wouldn't find contradictions between a game not developed by LucasArts (KOTOR II) and newer material? If you're wrong, then by the terms you set here, we can disregard the game.

Bane destroying the Rakatan Temple is better > anything Vader has done and the stuff in TUF is non-canon anyway.

Plus cant Bane just blitz him? He possess massive speed advantage.

How is TFU not canon? If it is an actual game that was approved by Lucas Arts, it is automatically canon unless another Lucas Arts title disproves it....

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Bane destroying the Rakatan Temple is better > anything Vader has done and the stuff in TUF is non-canon anyway

First, Bane simply shattered the temples entrance. This caused the Temple to destabilize and then collapse. Both Vader and Bane have better feats.

Secondly, TUF is canon. As is TFU.

Originally posted by ares834
First, Bane simply shattered the temples entrance. This caused the Temple to destabilize and then collapse. Both Vader and Bane have better feats.

Secondly, TUF is canon. As is TFU.

Read the rest of my post please. Bane doesnt need to use his tk as he can just blitz him.

This has been done before and Bane stomped.


Apparently, even Vader's master is outclassed by Bane, so I don't see how Vader could possibly win, here.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Read the rest of my post please. Bane doesnt need to use his tk as he can just blitz him.

Except I wasn't responding to that.

Anyway, what feats does Bane have that suggest he could blitz someone of Vader's caliber?

Originally posted by ares834
Except I wasn't responding to that.

Anyway, what feats does Bane have that suggest he could blitz someone of Vader's caliber?

Originally posted by ares834
I'm a Vader fanboy but even I don't see him beating Bane.

No one really gives any feats there. At all.

Don't get me wrong, I do think Bane wins. But it's not a stomp and I don't see anything to suggest he could blitz Vader.

Originally posted by ares834
No one really gives any feats there. At all.

Don't get me wrong, I do think Bane wins. But it's not a stomp and I don't see anything to suggest he could blitz Vader.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm a Vader fanboy but even I don't see him beating Bane.


Anyway, you don't really need feats, if you just answered your own question.

Hmm? What about the "Dancing in the rain" Feat?

The better question is: How could Bane NOT blitz Vader?

Vader is slow as molasses, compared to him.

In the pouring rain he was able to intercept every drop that was going to hit him with his lightsaber and emerge bone dry 30 minutes later. That's really fricking fast.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the pouring rain he was able to intercept every drop that was going to hit him with his lightsaber and emerge bone dry 30 minutes later. That's really fricking fast.

Word.

Yep rain dance what what I was thinking of. Plus he has blitzed powerful jedis before like sirak, given that vader has beloew than average speed i see no reason to see why bane would not be able to blitz him with ease.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the pouring rain he was able to intercept every drop that was going to hit him with his lightsaber and emerge bone dry 30 minutes later. That's really fricking fast.

That it is.

However, Bane has only successfully blitzed the neophyte Sirak in a duel, and that was only after "charging up" for awhile. Plenty of other Jedi and Sith have also been able to react to Bane's attacks such as Zannah and an untrained Cognus. Considering Vader's speed has been compared to Yoda's, I'm having a very hard time seeing him get blitzed here.

Not without orbalisks or a dark side nexus handy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
While I'm flattered that you clearly hold my opinion in such high esteem, I'm not in any better position to determine what is and is not canon. Which is one of the few things that you and I have in common with the moderators here, Ushgarak included.

Wrong. The canon policy of this forum is and I quote 'based on simple personal preference'. Yes, we follow the rules of canonicity, but the moderators decide the canon policy and have the authority to apply it as they interpret it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The novelization and all three games occupy the same level of canon.

Yes, you've been fricking stating this again and again. Ok, in that case which do you think should take precedence? We can't just say that all versions of events take place because that's contradictory. So how do you solve this smartass?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Wii version of events is corroborated in part in the game, Starkiller's duel with Darth Phobos has basis in supplement material by Dan Wallace and the character has an entry in the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. The truth is that this issue is not nearly as clear cut as you imply, with each version being corroborated at various points.

In this case then the Phobos sections are clearly canon since they are corroborated. That does not however mean that in cases where there is a clear contradiction that the Wii version trumps the X-box version.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The overwhelming fact is that while the game was completed first as an Xbox game, that doesn't mean the other games are non-canon.

I'm not hearing any differing arguments from you.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You wished to disregard the novel because of its early release date, I complied. That left the games. Now, despite the fact that the Wii version was released on the same date as the others and has certain threads in common with the novel, you wish to disregard it as well.

This is not out of mere personal preference here. The fact exists that there is conflicts between the versions and we have to decide how to resolve that. Everything that I have said is backed up by logic and evidence. You haven't even offered a counter-argument.

Also, to be frank, you are the one who wanted to use feats from 3 conflicting sources, so forgive me if I don't get flustered at your accusations of having my cake and eating it too.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Even if I agreed to your contortionist-interpretation, that still leaves Vader with the feats of the Xbox/PS3-version, which still keeps him higher than an unaided!Bane in the Force.

Now that is something I will happily debate you over.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Are you suggesting that, if I looked hard enough, I wouldn't find contradictions between a game not developed by LucasArts (KOTOR II) and newer material? If you're wrong, then by the terms you set here, we can disregard the game.

That is complete different. The Wii version is not newer material. It was released at the same time, yet offers a different version of events to the X-box version. I am arguing a way to determine canonicity between those two versions. This issue with TFU is a unique case, and has nothing to do with Kotor 2. There does not exist another version of Kotor 2 that was created by LucasArts. Your point is irrelevent, and misses the point.

Originally posted by ares834
That it is.

However, Bane has only successfully blitzed the neophyte Sirak in a duel, and that was only after "charging up" for awhile. Plenty of other Jedi and Sith have also been able to react to Bane's attacks such as Zannah and an untrained Cognus. Considering Vader's speed has been compared to Yoda's, I'm having a very hard time seeing him get blitzed here.

When was Vaders speed compared to Yodas?

Also, its made clear that if not for the BM, Bane would have blitzed his opponents in ROT.

And I would hardly call Sirak a neophyte.

lol @ you trying to equate KMC moderators with LucasFilm authorities in a desperate attempt to curry a favorable decision.

Because the games were released on the same day and occupy the same level of canon and all receive corroboration of some sort, I'll continue to regard them as equally valid sources from which to draw.

As for the rest, the bottom line is that I don't recognize you or anyone else here as a credible authority to determine canon. You can argue all you want in an effort to save your favorite character's ass here, but my cooperation with this silliness ended a while back.

If you'd like to debate Vader's feats vis a vis Bane's, we can as friends and lovers. But I'll just ignore the rest.

I'm not doing that. I'm merely point out that on this forum the moderators have authority.

And I'll continue to ignore all feats from the Wii version then I guess. awermm

Btw, I'm not trying to save Banes ass. I haven't even looked at the feats you posted in detail, but I'm sure I could poke holes in them.

That's cool, bro. stoned

But Bane still loses. excellent

Now I'm off to watch Alias and go to bed. I shall smite your ruin upon the mountain side and other Gandalfy things on the morrow.

Originally posted by Nephthys
When was Vaders speed compared to Yodas?

"It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda. The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart."

BTW, Vader has also blitzed Aurra Sing before.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, its made clear that if not for the BM, Bane would have blitzed his opponents in ROT.

Quote?

What I remember happening is Bane charged the Jedi. Rastka then unleashed a flurry of attacks on Bane, but they were deflected by the Orbalisks. Farfalla was shocked that Bane was not cut down and would have been trampled were it not for the BM.

Originally posted by ares834
"It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda. The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart."

BTW, Vader has also blitzed Aurra Sing before.

I doubt Roan Shryne has ever seen Yoda fight before. So I don't really put much stock in that comparison. Which isn't really even a comparison. Who knows who he's actually seen fight.

Originally posted by ares834
Quote?

What I remember happening is Bane charged the Jedi. Rastka then unleashed a flurry of attacks on Bane, but they were deflected by the Orbalisks. Farfalla was shocked that Bane was not cut down and would have been trampled were it not for the BM.

Yes. The text notes that if it wasn't for the BM Farfalla wouldn't have survived Banes initial charge, and given that Raskta only got away 'at the last possible moment', it can be argued that this was the case for her as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I doubt Roan Shryne has ever seen Yoda fight before. So I don't really put much stock in that comparison. Which isn't really even a comparison. Who knows who he's actually seen fight.

Really? Last time I brought it up you seemed quite impressed.

"A speed comparison to Yoda is high praise. Even I didn't know Vader had that in him."

Why the sudden change of heart?


Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. The text notes that if it wasn't for the BM Farfalla wouldn't have survived Banes initial charge, and given that Raskta only got away 'at the last possible moment', it can be argued that this was the case for her as well.

That was after Rastka had "blitzed" Bane so clearly she had ample time to react to Bane's attack. If she had cut him down like she expected she wouldn't have needed to avoid the attack in the first place. So Bane's supposed near blitz wasn't due to speed but his orbalisks which he doesn't have hear.

As for Farfalla, we've had this argument before. Regardless, Vader blitzing Aurra Sing is more impressive as Sing actually has feats to her name.

Spoiler Ahead

Originally posted by ares834
"It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda. The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart."

I read Dark Lord: The rise of Darth vader (I own it, too, actually but I need to find it) and If I recall correctly, he died from blunt-force damage sustained from fighting Vader - but Vader did not stab his lightsaber into his heart or anything.

Is the excerpt you provided taken from one of Roan's nightmares or something?

Also, it's been well documented that Vader is slow as molasses - he's not as fast as his Pre-suit self; not as fast as RotJ Luke, and not as fast as Yoda.

And also - regardless of what happened in ROT with Bane - by the final book, he's fast enough to dodge and block every raindrop in a pouring storm - for 10 minutes.

Not only is he faster than Vader - that feat by the end of tenure as a Dark Lord possibly surpasses Yoda's speed - and certainly surpasses them both in stamina and endurance.

Bane has the solid edge, here.

Originally posted by Rookwood


Also, it's been well documented that Vader is slow as molasses -

Where has that been well documented??

I seriously doubt it considering Lucas himself has stated him to be 80% as Powerful as The Frigging Emporer.

I doubt he would be anything close to 80% if he was "slow as molasses."

Lucas also responded to a question about why the fight Vader and Kenobi were so unimpressive in ANH by suggesting that Vader's cybernetics hindered him iirc.

Yep. People seem to think that old people being able to use the force to remain fit is the rule and not the exception, and this is not the case. The like of Vader and Old Ben are as slow as their physical condition, force or no force, and George has onfirmed this multiple times. Not every old force user is a count dooku or yoda, who are not only great force users but have trained extensively in this use of the force. Vader is a shadow of his former self, his mech suit is far more hindrance than simply just frail bpody, and he didnt really rtrain extensively on his force speed, instead focusing on strength. The vader we see in originl trilogy is hiow slow he really is.

So among the powerful Jedis and Siths hes among the weaker ones with a saber, and somebody like Bane would be able to blitz him.

Originally posted by ares834
Except I wasn't responding to that.

Anyway, what feats does Bane have that suggest he could blitz someone of Vader's caliber?

TUF events are of questionable canon, TUF feats and pwoers are of definite N canon status, as it is a videogame that was designed to show the forc ein a unrealstic ways and the developers have stated that they was exaggerated, much like clone wars cartoon. Almost every character that appears in other media is shown doing stuffs they can never do outside of it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where has that been well documented??

Also, it's been well documented that Vader is slow as molasses - he's not as fast as his Pre-suit self; not as fast as RotJ Luke, and not as fast as Yoda.

So you're saying he is as fast as RotS Anakin, RotJ Luke (who blitzed him) and as fast as Yoda?

Where has that been shown?


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I seriously doubt it considering Lucas himself has stated him to be 80% as Powerful as The Frigging Emporer.

- Yeah, in Force ability, Moron.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I doubt he would be anything close to 80% if he was "slow as molasses."
He was weighed down by armor that weighed hundreds of Lbs, you Idiot. doh

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lucas also responded to a question about why the fight Vader and Kenobi were so unimpressive in ANH by suggesting that Vader's cybernetics hindered him iirc.

In comparison to their former selves. I think most people agree ROTS Anakin is above OT Vader in Sabers at least.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Also, it's been well documented that Vader is slow as molasses - he's not as fast as his Pre-suit self; not as fast as RotJ Luke, and not as fast as Yoda.

So you're saying he is as fast as RotS Anakin, RotJ Luke (who blitzed him) and as fast as Yoda?

Where has that been shown?

When did I say he's as fast as Anakin or Yoda?? Learn to read.

As for Luke, I have no recollection of him Blitzing Vader. Unless your really using the Temporarily Rage Enhanced Luke as evidence.

Being slowER than ROTS Anakin and Yoda does not make one slow in comparison to everyone else.




Originally posted by Rookwood
- Yeah, in Force ability, Moron.

Oh look, Rockwood is back to his childish debating routine.

He never said "In Respect to Force TK ONLY!"

He was talking about why Vader couldn't overthrow the Emperor in comparison to how Powerful he could have been if not for his injuries.

So it's obviously to do with power applicable for combat purposes.



Originally posted by Rookwood
He was weighed down by armor that weighed hundreds of Lbs, you Idiot. doh

So was Grievous. Didn't seem to slow him down.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
How is TFU not canon? If it is an actual game that was approved by Lucas Arts, it is automatically canon unless another Lucas Arts title disproves it....

It has multiple endings and you can kill Luke, Han, Chewie and Leia?

Hey its you!

Greetings fight fan.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It has multiple endings and you can kill Luke, Han, Chewie and Leia?

That's only in the alternate dark side ending, which is of course not canon. It is however a valid alternate version of events which Starkiller has seen in visions.

Originally posted by Rookwood
And also - regardless of what happened in ROT with Bane - by the final book, he's fast enough to dodge and block every raindrop in a pouring storm - for 10 minutes.

Not only is he faster than Vader - that feat by the end of tenure as a Dark Lord possibly surpasses Yoda's speed - and certainly surpasses them both in stamina and endurance.

Bane has the solid edge, here.

It's not from Dark Lord. The quote was from a different book, had a different Roan and was from the perspective of Ferus Olin.

Anyway, once again I don't think Vader will beat Bane. And certainly not in sabers but at the same time I don't see him getting stomped and certainly not blitzed.

Be a role model for the Bane faction and explain why, my son.

Even if you guys wanted to use all the stuff from tfu and the other stuff that he couldnt do in the movies, at best you can argue that vader beats him in just one areA - TELKINESIS, BUT EVen that is doubtful and at very least bane will rival him. However, bane on the other hand has extreme speed feats, can use force storm, not to mention the sith sorcery he apparently uses in the third book. and this is when we cripple bane without orbaliskjs. So how does vader, who by comparison is basically a one trick pony, comapres in the lsightest?

Okay, enough is enough. STOP DEBATING THE CANONOCITY OF TFU AND STAY ON TOPIC. If you are citing Vader's feats, realize that TFU is meant to be greatly exaggerated in terms of Force capabilities, and not just for Starkiller. So, from here on, no more debating that point.

Easy, my son.

For what it's worth (and it's worth a lot, I know), I personally find TFU's powers to be out of place with higher canon. But then I think that about anything bar the films and the 3D series.

That said, canon is canon and inconsistencies among feats is an enduring problem for this franchise.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When did I say he's as fast as Anakin or Yoda?? Learn to read.
Originally posted by Rookwood

Also, it's been well documented that Vader is slow as molasses - he's not as fast as his Pre-suit self; not as fast as RotJ Luke, and not as fast as Yoda.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where has that been well documented??


If you question/disagree with what I posted, Dumbass, it means you take the opposite position of my statement.

So I say, he's not as fast as Anakin, Yoda, etc - and you ask where that's been shown, showcasing either that you haven't watched the trilogies, or you're just a complete idiot.

You learn to read.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

As for Luke, I have no recollection of him Blitzing Vader. Unless your really using the Temporarily Rage Enhanced Luke as evidence.

Oh, **** - what a stretch - using a combat-related feat to demonstrate my point about Luke's speed in a duel.

Yes, stupid ****, I'm really using the scene of where Luke blitzed Vader in a duel - to exemplify Luke being faster than Vader in a duel.

Are you in a room with enough oxygen to supply your brain - or do you need to move to a more-ventilated room?

If you got a laptop - take it outside in the fresh air, and type out there.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Being slowER than ROTS Anakin and Yoda does not make one slow in comparison to everyone else.

But it does make him slower than Bane, which is crucial here.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Oh look, Rockwood is back to his childish debating routine.

He never said "In Respect to Force TK ONLY!"

He was talking about why Vader couldn't overthrow the Emperor in comparison to how Powerful he could have been if not for his injuries.

So it's obviously to do with power applicable for combat purposes.


Dumbass.

Vader's armor weighed him down so much - that he needed to use the Force constantly - just to merely move.
This means Vader relying on exerting TK on himself almost constantly.

So he's always weighed down, and never at "full strength" because of his body and the armor over it.

So when he's constantly exerting Force energy just to do regular things that say, Obi-wan or Luke, wouldn't need to exert any Force power to do - Vader needs needs it just to walk - let alone run or blitz anyone.

Thanks to that predicament - he would rarely ever be at "full strength".

This is especially worse for Vader, if the theory about many of his Midichlorians being burned out after Mustafar are true - because then he would have even less "organs" to draw the Force through - thus making his constant strain of Force-usage even more taxing.

So unfortunately for Vader - being 80% of Sidious, doesn't do jack for his speed - because of his taxing and cumbersome situation.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

So was Grievous. Didn't seem to slow him down.


The core of Vader's body - was Flesh.

That means, weakened, burned, flesh and muscles, straining to constantly lift up limbs and armor, made of metal that weighed hundreds of Lbs.

So then the Force is utilized almost constantly to make this work, draining him.


- Grievous' body on the other hand, is a metallic-frame, with a brain, and a gut-sack.

- But, the core frame, is metal - so when arms and legs move, all the stress and strain is directed to the center, which is just as durable and strong, naturally, as the limbs moving under it's power.

So when Grievous' frame, because of it's design and composition, is perfectly capable of moving under it's own power, without strain or stress to itself in the process - and more importantly, no strain to Grievous's muscles (unlike Vader) because he has none - then he's essentially free to move as fast as he wants, because his, essentially, metal-body, will never tire.

Add to the fact that Grievous' arms (unlike Vader's) are designed to move cyclically and spin at incredible speeds (generating the 26 swings per second).

Vader's body is essentially weighed down - making him incapable of moving at pure speeds as great as Zonakin or Yoda - and constantly draining himself of the Force, just to be able to move under his own power.

Grievous, for obvious reasons, is not bound to these stipulations, and is a different can of worms (no pun intended) altogether.

Ares has provided a credible argument against the myth of Vader's lethargy; TFU's novelization also has a scene wherein, during the final battle, Starkiller is astonished by Vader's speed. He may or may not be faster than Bane, but there you are.

The only problem is in the movies, Vader never tries. Against Obi-Wan, he wants to show off how in control he is. Against Luke, he doesn't want to kill his son. Even the second time, he doesn't want to kill Luke. If he did, he could easily TK Luke. The only times we see of him try is in the EU, where everything is exaggerated.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I seriously doubt it considering Lucas himself has stated him to be 80% as Powerful as The Frigging Emporer.

I doubt he would be anything close to 80% if he was "slow as molasses."
Any confirmation or is this just heresay?

The most commonly stated claim regarding Vader's strength; and yet I have no luck in finding the actual quote or interview of Lucas - funny.

Agreed with S W Legend.

Originally posted by Rookwood
If you question/disagree with what I posted, Dumbass, it means you take the opposite position of my statement.

You are very stupid.

Originally posted by Rookwood
So I say, he's not as fast as Anakin, Yoda, etc - and you ask where that's been shown, showcasing either that you haven't watched the trilogies, or you're just a complete idiot..

When did I say he's as fast as ROTS Anakin or Yoda Dumbo??

I was arguing against saying Vader is Slow Just Because You Say So!




Originally posted by Rookwood
Oh, **** - what a stretch - using a combat-related feat to demonstrate my point about Luke's speed in a duel.

Yes, stupid ****, I'm really using the scene of where Luke blitzed Vader in a duel - to exemplify Luke being faster than Vader in a duel.

Are you in a room with enough oxygen to supply your brain - or do you need to move to a more-ventilated room?

If you got a laptop - take it outside in the fresh air, and type out there.

Yeah and Padawan Obi-Wan matched Maul in a rage enhanced state, and Savage Opress was overpowering Dooku and Ventress together in a similar state.

What's your point?

Oh that's right your too dumb to make one.

Oh and for the record Vader was clearly not going all out against his son. But that's not something I'd expect you to pick up on.





Originally posted by Rookwood
But it does make him slower than Bane, which is crucial here.

No it doesn't.




Originally posted by Rookwood
Vader's armor weighed him down so much - that he needed to use the Force constantly - just to merely move.
This means Vader relying on exerting TK on himself almost constantly.

Where did you make this up from?

I like how your making all these bull crap claims without once quoting a source.




Originally posted by Rookwood
So unfortunately for Vader - being 80% of Sidious, doesn't do jack for his speed - because of his taxing and cumbersome situation.

If he was as slow as your making out he would not be even close to 80% of the Emperor.






Originally posted by Rookwood
The core of Vader's body - was Flesh.

Doesn't matter. The mechanical limbs would have A LOT of strength to move around fast.

Otherwise by your absurd theory I'd have to assume ROTS Anakin moves his mechanical arm very slowly because it weighs so much.

So just stop this bull crap now Dumbo!

Working over the weekend; probably won't get to reply for a while.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Even if you guys wanted to use all the stuff from tfu and the other stuff that he couldnt do in the movies, at best you can argue that vader beats him in just one areA - TELKINESIS, BUT EVen that is doubtful and at very least bane will rival him. However, bane on the other hand has extreme speed feats, can use force storm, not to mention the sith sorcery he apparently uses in the third book. and this is when we cripple bane without orbaliskjs. So how does vader, who by comparison is basically a one trick pony, comapres in the lsightest?

Firstly who said he couldn't do them in the movies??

Just because HE CHOSE not to show off his top abilities against an Old Man and a Kid does not mean he couldn't do them. And btw the blocking blaster fire with his hands and choking over the view screen are both in the movies and I'd say still among his top feats.

Second, As if Bane's feats are so inline with the movies.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I am very stupid.


Fixed.

And I know, you're a dumbfvck. It shows.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER

When did I say he's as fast as ROTS Anakin or Yoda, Person who is smarter than me??

I was arguing against saying Vader is Slow Just Because You Say Sor!

I said he wasn't as fast as them, and you questioned why; and the only reason you would question was if you disagreed, implying you think otherwise.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Yeah and Padawan Obi-Wan matched Maul in a rage enhanced stae, and Savage Opress was overpowering Dooku and Ventress together in a similar state.

What's your point?

Because I'm too stupid to see a basic point where it's written - hell, I even chose to respond to you, because I'm too stupid to see where I was bested.

Oh and for the record Vader was clearly not going all out against his son. But that's not something I'd expect you to pick up on.

Yeah, 'cause I'm using an example where Luke blitzed Vader, to exemplify Luke being faster than Vader in a duel and thusly beating him.

But I wouldn't expect you to be bright enough to pick up on that the first time.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

No it doesn't - because I say so!

Yeah, doesn't work that way. Everyone here knows Vader is slow as fvck - Bane was able to block and dodge every rain drop in a pouring storm - for ten minutes - Vader doesn't have speed-feats - or endurance for that matter - that match that.

He's slower. Now go outside and enjoy your extended-childhood.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Where did you make this up from?

Because I don't know anything about Darth Vader, so I'm questioning this - which kind of refutes the point of me even coming here, unless I'm planning to just look like a moron, which has turned into the case.

Shall I teach you?



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

If he was as slow as your making out he would not be even close to 80% of the Emperor.

So what you're saying is that his showings, especially in the movies, dictate that Lucas was wrong about Vader being 80% of Sidious?

Ingenious. What next?



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Doesn't matter. The mechanical limbs would have A LOT of strength to move around fast.

Otherwise by your absurd theory I'd have to assume ROTS Anakin moves his mechanical arm very slowly because it weighs so much.

I'm need my mommma...!


Read up to my other post again, Dumbass.

The core of Darth Vader is flesh and acts as the support fulcrum for limbs and an outer shell of armor, that weigh hundreds of Lbs.

To even sustain the type of strength needed to move conventionally day-to-day, he needs to draw upon the Force constantly - which drains him.

Even Anakin with just his mechanical forearm was said to have suffered a lack of dexterity - compared to his other hand.

And if you're the star wars expert you're trying to pretend to be - you'll know I'm right and won't have to question it.

Otherwise I'm just here to teach you.

- Anakin in his regular body, had a fully-functioning and healthy system of MidiChlorians in his bloodstream, not to mention a perfectly healthy circulatory-system and lungs. Add to the fact that he wasn't weighed down by hundreds of Lbs yet of armor and mechanics, and this meant his body could gyrate, bend and move with normal speed - with only a slight lessening of dexterity in the mechanical hand.

- Then when he became Vader, a large amount of MidiChlorians were destroyed at the cellular-level in his body, lessening his grasp on the Force - his circulatory-system, responsible for carrying oxygen-filled blood to the burned and now-damaged muscles in his body, needed for movement, were very badly damaged and effected his performance.
His lungs were horribly damaged, so that again, oxygen-rich blood, needed to sustain his ravaged muscles, were affected and performance decreased.
Adding to this the acquisition of armor and added mechanics that further weighed down his damaged, ravaged fleshly-core, which already biologically-weakened all the time.

So yes, the rather significant difference in his early and later state, mark the rather obvious decline in his overall-performance, that would be obvious to you, if you weren't an Imbecile.

This is what I quoted Dumbo. Learn to read then come back.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Also, it's been well documented that Vader is slow as molasses -





Originally posted by Rookwood

Yeah, 'cause I'm using an example where Luke blitzed Vader, to exemplify Luke being faster than Vader in a duel and thusly beating him.

But I wouldn't expect you to be bright enough to pick up on that the first time.

Yeah in a fit of rage he blitzed a Vader who was clearly restraining himself. Great Dumbo.





Originally posted by Rookwood
Yeah, doesn't work that way. Everyone here knows Vader is slow as fvck

And again you've made the claim. And if I disagree with this then you try to make out that I'm saying Vader is as fast as ROTS Anakin and Yoda.

Your not even worth replying to since you obviously don't have the IQ to follow a conversation.

Btw Ares has already proven you wrong. And there's only a handful here who believe Vader is slow.


-

Originally posted by Rookwood
- Anakin in his regular body, had a fully-functioning and healthy system of MidiChlorians in his bloodstream, not to mention a perfectly healthy circulatory-system and lungs. Add to the fact that he wasn't weighed down by hundreds of Lbs yet of armor and mechanics, and this meant his body could gyrate, bend and move with normal speed - with only a slight lessening of dexterity in the mechanical hand.

- Then when he became Vader, a large amount of MidiChlorians were destroyed at the cellular-level in his body, lessening his grasp on the Force - his circulatory-system, responsible for carrying oxygen-filled blood to the burned and now-damaged muscles in his body, needed for movement, were very badly damaged and effected his performance.
His lungs were horribly damaged, so that again, oxygen-rich blood, needed to sustain his ravaged muscles, were affected and performance decreased.
Adding to this the acquisition of armor and added mechanics that further weighed down his damaged, ravaged fleshly-core, which already biologically-weakened all the time.

So yes, the rather significant difference in his early and later state, mark the rather obvious decline in his overall-performance, that would be obvious to you, if you weren't an Imbecile.



In Summary we should all just believe Dumbo's theories without any evidence to back it up.

Answer the question, does Anakin mechanical arm move slowly because it weighs too much.

Answer this first Dumbo then continue your rant.

Originally posted by Rookwood


THE POLL IS A LIE! YOUR VOTES DO NOT MATTER! RUN AWAY FROM HER, HURRY, BEFORE SHE ENSNARES YOU!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Firstly who said he couldn't do them in the movies??

Just because HE CHOSE not to show off his top abilities against an Old Man and a Kid does not mean he couldn't do them. And btw the blocking blaster fire with his hands and choking over the view screen are both in the movies and I'd say still among his top feats.



Axcept Bane was not in the movies so all that means is that he is more powerful than the jedis and siths from the movies. vader on the other hand is in the movies and in them he is not as powerful as he is in tuf. He blocked blaster fire with his glove and nothing more special about choking the guy then it is choking any guy, no matter where he is, as long as he can see him.

He didnt CHOOSE to not move fast enough and not prevent his arm getting chopped off by luke in empire. Nor did he go easy on old ben they were evenly matched until ben decided to become one with qui-gon. only person he went easy on was luke, and all that he did was hold back offensivcely, he was still moving as fast as he could to block attacks.

and id doesnt make sense that he could do those tk feats when not even yoda could in the fight of his life, yoda who was even with emporer and vader who was weaker.

also respond to sw legend please.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Axcept Bane was not in the movies so all that means is that he is more powerful than the jedis and siths from the movies.

Yeah great, then so was Starkiller. And Vader was almost a match for him.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
vader on the other hand is in the movies and in them he is not as powerful as he is in tuf.

Says who? Lucas himself has stated he's 80% as Powerful as The Most Powerful Sith Lord in history.


Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
He blocked blaster fire with his glove

Says who? Some EU Source?? Well you can't just pick and choose which parts of the EU you accept. You can only ignore the EU where there's an event that DIRECTLY contradicts an event from the movie (you would have to point out which event) or a statement of Lucas's.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
and nothing more special about choking the guy then it is choking any guy, no matter where he is, as long as he can see him.

LOL Are you for real?? Choking a guy over a view screen is at least 10 times more impressive than choking a guy whose right in front of you.

Next thing you'll be saying Vader choking an Imperial officer in front of him using TK is no different to him physically choking the rebel officer with his mechanical hand.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
He didnt CHOOSE to not move fast enough and not prevent his arm getting chopped off by luke in empire.

Yeah because it was his son who he clearly could have killed anytime he wanted, despite the fact that his son showed his blinding speed in that leap he made.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Nor did he go easy on old ben they were evenly matched until ben decided to become one with qui-gon.

Yeah so?! Was Old Ben as old as Dooku?? Was he all mechanical?? Nope. And yet Vader was keeping up with him quite comfortably.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah great, then so was Starkiller. And Vader was almost a match for him.

You have proofed my point for me bro. Starkiller was not in movie but he interacts with peoples that were, some who were almost match for him.



Respond to SW Legend please and provide source. I know George personally and he is not in the business of using percentages.




Behind the scenes.



It is exact same thing as the power is simply visualising the choke around the opponents neck, provided vader can see him it doesnt matter where he is, as enegry comes from the opponents location, not vaders.



He still showed the same slowness when failing to protect himself, plus even when he is toying with someone he wouldnt slow his movements down when defending, he would do it with his usual speed and it would be shown to be swift and effortless.



Not all jedis are able to use the force to remove old age bro. Just because dooku did does not mean be should be able to.

I refuse to believe you know GL personally. But I'd also like the source for the statement about Vader being 80% of Sidious.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Says who? Some EU Source?? Well you can't just pick and choose which parts of the EU you accept. You can only ignore the EU where there's an event that DIRECTLY contradicts an event from the movie (you would have to point out which event) or a statement of Lucas's.

Are... Are you fvcking kidding me, have you ever seen The Empire Strikes Back? In the scene where Lando takes Han, Leia, and Chewie to "dinner" where Vader is waiting for them. Han shots a him three or four times, and Vader just casually lifts his hand and blocks them, then takes Han's blaster with the Force.

If you don't know that scene, then you are not knowledgable enough in Star Wars facts and you need to gtfo.

Originally posted by jmoul
Are... Are you fvcking kidding me, have you ever seen The Empire Strikes Back? In the scene where Lando takes Han, Leia, and Chewie to "dinner" where Vader is waiting for them. Han shots a him three or four times, and Vader just casually lifts his hand and blocks them, then takes Han's blaster with the Force.

If you don't know that scene, then you are not knowledgable enough in Star Wars facts and you need to gtfo.

Originally posted by jmoul
Are... Are you fvcking kidding me, have you ever seen The Empire Strikes Back? In the scene where Lando takes Han, Leia, and Chewie to "dinner" where Vader is waiting for them. Han shots a him three or four times, and Vader just casually lifts his hand and blocks them, then takes Han's blaster with the Force.

If you don't know that scene, then you are not knowledgable enough in Star Wars facts and you need to gtfo.

No you Moron. I meant how do you know it was his glove that brushed them off and not his power in the force. I believe there's an EU source that confirms it was his glove.

That's like my favorite scene in ESB so shut the f*** up!

lol yeh I knew what you were saying.

Ah so you admit that it was his glove?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No you Moron. I meant how do you know it was his glove that brushed them off and not his power in the force. I believe there's an EU source that confirms it was his glove.

That's like my favorite scene in ESB so shut the f*** up!

The way you worded the original response sounded like you were saying that it you had never seen that scene, so I apologize for the misunderstanding there.

Vader probably did use the Force to prevent the metal in his hand from getting fried, unless his hands could absorb the bolts without damage.

Either way, the scene in ESB is really all that is needed to show that he can block blaster fire with his hand, since it is in the highest canon of the Star Wars Universe.

Originally posted by jmoul
then you are not knowledgable enough in Star Wars facts and you need to gtfo.

- That's pretty much DARTH POWER to a T.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No you Moron. I meant how do you know it was his glove that brushed them off and not his power in the force. I believe there's an EU source that confirms it was his glove.

That's like my favorite scene in ESB so shut the f*** up! Imma go take my nap now!


Old argument, solved years ago with the revelation of Force Absorb (Look it up).

lol

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This is what I quoted Dumbo. Learn to read then come back.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When did I say he's as fast as Anakin or Yoda?? Learn to read.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Also, it's been well documented that Vader is slow as molasses - he's not as fast as his Pre-suit self; not as fast as RotJ Luke, and not as fast as Yoda.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where has that been well documented??

Originally posted by Rookwood
If you question/disagree with what I posted, Dumbass, it means you take the opposite position of my statement.

So I say, he's not as fast as Anakin, Yoda, etc - and you ask where that's been shown, showcasing either that you haven't watched the trilogies, or you're just a complete idiot.

You learn to read.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Yeah in a fit of rage he blitzed a Vader who was clearly restraining himself. Great Dumbo.

Do you have proof for Vader restraining himself, during the moment of Luke's blitz? Up until the point of Luke's assault, Vader had been wanting Luke to leave his hiding place and fight him - and then threatened Leia.

And you should call me "Ding Dong" That's like one step above or below the level of 5-year old-ishness you're displaying with your silly comebacks.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And again you've made the claim. And if I disagree with this then you try to make out that I'm saying Vader is as fast as ROTS Anakin and Yoda.

Your not even worth replying to since I obviously don't have the IQ to follow a conversation.

Btw Ares has already proven you wrong. And there's only a handful here who believe Vader is slow.

LOL. Ares didn't prove me wrong in this debate in any way.

- And there isn't a single person here, besides your dumbass, who thinks Vader is actually on par with Yoda, in terms of dueling speed - not one person.

Everyone here knows Vader is slow as molasses. Except you, "Dumbo".



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

In Summary we should all just believe Dumbo's theories without any evidence to back it up.

Hey, you're the Vader expert - so you should already know what I said was right, and have no need to question it - unless you don't know those things about Vader; in which case you're conceding to me that I know more about Vader than you.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Answer the question, does Anakin mechanical arm move slowly because it weighs too much.

Answer this first Dumbo then i go to sto wit mommy an she by sum candy

Here you go, you drooling Mongoloid - since in your unfathomable 5-year old-esque wisdom - you missed it the first time.

Originally posted by Rookwood

- Anakin in his regular body, had a fully-functioning and healthy system of MidiChlorians in his bloodstream, not to mention a perfectly healthy circulatory-system and lungs. Add to the fact that he wasn't weighed down by hundreds of Lbs yet of armor and mechanics, and this meant his body could gyrate, bend and move with normal speed - with only a slight lessening of dexterity in the mechanical hand.

- Then when he became Vader, a large amount of MidiChlorians were destroyed at the cellular-level in his body, lessening his grasp on the Force - his circulatory-system, responsible for carrying oxygen-filled blood to the burned and now-damaged muscles in his body, needed for movement, were very badly damaged and effected his performance.
His lungs were horribly damaged, so that again, oxygen-rich blood, needed to sustain his ravaged muscles, were affected and performance decreased.
Adding to this the acquisition of armor and added mechanics that further weighed down his damaged, ravaged fleshly-core, which already biologically-weakened all the time.

So yes, the rather significant difference in his early and later state, mark the rather obvious decline in his overall-performance, that would be obvious to you, if you weren't an Imbecile.

The question here is not whether or not Vader got weaker, because there is too much evidence that he has. Still, he was restraining himself. He didn't want to kill his son, or he could have easily used the force. He had MANY chances in EU to kill Luke too, and he didn't. So yes, Luke blitzed Vader, but there is no reason why Vader couldn't have stopped Luke if he really wanted to.

Originally posted by Rookwood
- That's pretty much DARTH POWER to a T.



Yeah says the guy who claims Yoda got 10 times more powerful during the clone wars.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
The question here is not whether or not Vader got weaker, because there is too much evidence that he has. Still, he was restraining himself. He didn't want to kill his son, or he could have easily used the force. He had MANY chances in EU to kill Luke too, and he didn't. So yes, Luke blitzed Vader, but there is no reason why Vader couldn't have stopped Luke if he really wanted to.

It's pointless talking sense to Rockwood. But I'll give it one more try.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Do you have proof for Vader restraining himself, during the moment of Luke's blitz? Up until the point of Luke's assault, Vader had been wanting Luke to leave his hiding place and fight him - and then threatened Leia.

Yes I have tons of proof.

1: Lucas has said Luke was not trained well enough to defeat Vader.

2: TFU is full of feats which show Vader could have clearly Force Choked Luke anytime he wanted. So he was CLEARLY restraining himself.

2: Luke says it himself "Your thoughts betray you Father. I feel the good in you" during the damn fight.

3: Vader couldn't bear killed the Emporer when he tried to kill Luke.

4: Luke while getting choked in a post ROTJ novel says himself "This is what it would have felt like if Vader TRIED to hurt me!!!"

The proof's all there clearly layed out for you Dumbo.


Originally posted by Rookwood
- And there isn't a single person here, besides your dumbass, who thinks Vader is actually on par with Yoda, in terms of dueling speed - not one person.

Everyone here knows Vader is slow as molasses. Except you, "Dumbo".

No one claimed Vader's as fast as Yoda Dumbo.

Just that he's not slow. You keep claiming he is, without any proof whatsoever. And there's plenty of evidence of his speed. In TFU and in RODV.

Try again Dumbo.







Originally posted by Rookwood
Here you go, you drooling Mongoloid - since in your unfathomable 5-year old-esque wisdom - you missed it the first time.



Since "all that armor" did not slow Grievous down. There's absolutely no reason to believe Vader would be slow due to strength enhancing Cyborg parts.

I'll ask you for a THIRD TIME NOW. Did Anakin's Cyborg arm slow him down due to the weight.

Keep ignoring the question Dumbo. You've had your ass kicked twice now in this debate You should save yourself continued embarrassment and not come back to these boards.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah says the guy who claims Yoda got 10 times more powerful during the clone wars.

This coming from the Idiot, who only later, realized Yoda was indeed rusty before the onset of the Clone Wars.

And also is too stupid to understand the concept of "Power Progression".

Did you recieve my PM?

You have confirmed my suspicions.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes I have tons of proof.

1: Lucas has said Luke was not trained well enough to defeat Vader.

2: TFU is full of feats which show Vader could have clearly Force Choked Luke anytime he wanted. So he was CLEARLY restraining himself.

2: Luke says it himself "Your thoughts betray you Father. I feel the good in you" during the damn fight.

3: Vader couldn't bear killed the Emporer when he tried to kill Luke.

4: Luke while getting choked in a post ROTJ novel says himself "This is what it would have felt like if Vader TRIED to hurt me!!!"

The proof's all there clearly layed out for you Dumbo.

Lord Lucien would disagree with all of this.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

No one claimed Vader's as fast as Yoda Dumbo.

Oh, so you do concede to my earlier point, that Vader is not as fast as all the people I mentioned in my earlier statement?




Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Since his own body did not slow Grievous down. There's absolutely no reason to believe Vader would be slow due to strength enhancing Cyborg parts that weighed hundreds of Lbs.

I have CEREBRAL PALSY and can't put together logical cognizant thoughts - so I HAVE to have things explained to me like a retard - because that's what I AM.

Keep ignoring the question Dumbo. I've tried to kick your ass twice now in this debate weep I should save myself continued embarrassment and not come back to these boards..

Hahahahaha. I've literally ass-raped you since we've argued, and your rectum must be pretty close to falling out by now.

Here it is again, you drooling Retard:

Originally posted by Rookwood

- Anakin in his regular body, had a fully-functioning and healthy system of MidiChlorians in his bloodstream, not to mention a perfectly healthy circulatory-system and lungs. Add to the fact that he wasn't weighed down by hundreds of Lbs yet of armor and mechanics, and this meant his body could gyrate, bend and move with normal speed - with only a slight lessening of dexterity in the mechanical hand.

- Then when he became Vader, a large amount of MidiChlorians were destroyed at the cellular-level in his body, lessening his grasp on the Force - his circulatory-system, responsible for carrying oxygen-filled blood to the burned and now-damaged muscles in his body, needed for movement, were very badly damaged and effected his performance. His lungs were horribly damaged, so that again, oxygen-rich blood, needed to sustain his ravaged muscles, were affected and performance decreased. Adding to this the acquisition of armor and added mechanics that further weighed down his damaged, ravaged fleshly-core, which already biologically-weakened all the time.


So yes, the rather significant difference in his early and later state, mark the rather obvious decline in his overall-performance, that would be obvious to you, if you weren't an Imbecile.

Enough of that debate, it is clear that Vader is extremely limited in speed compared to RotS Anakin, since his prosthetic limbs and his armor weren't as flexible as biological limbs. His armor was extremely heavy, and because he still had a biological torso, he needed to keep the weight that wasn't supported by his prosthetics off of his damaged body in order to move at the speed that he did.

He also was holding back in his duel with Luke because he didn't want to kill his son, he wanted to turn him to the dark side.

Also, I am pretty sure GL said that Vader's armor was so heavy that he needed to use the force constantly to move normally.

Originally posted by Rookwood
This coming from the Idiot, who only later, realized Yoda was indeed rusty before the onset of the Clone Wars.

I don't think he was rusty. Again more BS you've made up. Your arguments would be convincing if we took your BS as a canon source.

Originally posted by Rookwood
And also is too stupid to understand the concept of "Power Progression".

Yeah a 900 year old master suddenly progressed in 3 years for no apparent reason. He didn't even go on many missions during the war.

And yet you would have us believe his Force TK multiplied in power by a factor of at least 10.

You are Retarded.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Lord Lucien would disagree with all of this.

If Lord Lucien wants to argue the point he's welcome to. At least I wouldn't arguing with a retard in that argument.

LL talks about the ROTJ novel since which Lucas has clearly changed his mind about a lot of things.

He says in the ROTJ audio commentary that Luke wasn't trained well enough to defeat Vader.












Originally posted by Rookwood
Here it is again, you drooling Retard:





And your still ignoring the question. Did Anakin's Cyborg arm weigh him down??

Ignore it, and ignore Lucas's own words.

Originally posted by jmoul
Enough of that debate, it is clear that Vader is extremely limited in speed compared to RotS Anakin, since his prosthetic limbs and his armor weren't as flexible as biological limbs. His armor was extremely heavy, and because he still had a biological torso, he needed to keep the weight that wasn't supported by his prosthetics off of his damaged body in order to move at the speed that he did.

Also, I am pretty sure GL said that Vader's armor was so heavy that he needed to use the force constantly to move normally.

You are correct, Sir.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't think he was rusty.

Hahahahahahaha.

Well that's great - but either that means suddenly you think your own viewpoint trumps Canon - or you've apparently forgotten back when Nephthys pointed out to you that Yoda was indeed rusty - and then in your Retardation, you acted like it was some sort of an after-thought - when in reality, it was a crucial detail; no true expert in Jedi and Sith Lore could overlook.

You seem to pretty forgetful with this particular detail, don't you?




Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Yeah a 900 year old master suddenly progressed in 3 years for no apparent reason - I mean it's not like there was a Galaxy-wide War going on or anything. He just kind of did nothing, and somehow got more powerful..

I need more baby food..

He didn't even go on many missions during the war.

He fought on many worlds -

Off the top of my head:

Kashyyyk

Ilum

Vjun

Axion

Thustra

Rugosa

Coruscant

Bpfasshi

And considering his duels and encounters with multiple Dark siders, as well as other adversaries during his travels - it doesn't surprise me that his strength and ability in the Force became greatly focused.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And yet you would have us believe his Force TK multiplied in power by a factor of at least 10.

Hmm - going from being able to lift up a durasteel pillar - to being able to manhandle multiple massive CIS Landing-Craft all at once?

Yeah, I'd call that a fairly dramatic leap in power.

You've never seen Clone Wars?

Or is this just your way of telling everyone that you want more baby food?

You know you can go out and buy that stuff yourself - provided you can walk on your own/drive a car.

Don't tell me you aren't even allowed to cross your own street by yourself, yet..


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I am Retarded.

And you have my sympathies. It can't be easy to live with Cerebral Palsy.

The fact that you survived birth, is alone, a miracle.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If Lord Lucien wants to argue the point he's welcome to. At least I a retard in that argument.

LL talks about the ROTJ novel since which Lucas has clearly changed his mind about a lot of things.

He says in the ROTJ audio commentary that Luke wasn't trained well enough to defeat Vader.


Hahaha. Yeah, I'm sure Vader let his boy win.





Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And your still ignoring the question. Did Anakin's Cyborg arm weigh him down??

Ignore it, and ignore Lucas's own words.


What does that have to do with Vader's mechanics and armor weighing him down?

There's no need for the insults Battlemaster...

Originally posted by Rookwood
Hahahahahahaha.

Well that's great - but either that means suddenly you think your own viewpoint trumps Canon -

This is laughable coming from you. You continually ignore canon. In fact your doing so right now with this whole "Vader is damn slow" bull crap.

Originally posted by Rookwood
or you've apparently forgotten back when Nephthys pointed out to you that Yoda was indeed rusty

Nephthys pointing something out is not canon either unless he back it up with a canon source.

Originally posted by Rookwood
- and then in your Retardation, you acted like it was some sort of an after-thought - when in reality, it was a crucial detail; no true expert in Jedi and Sith Lore could overlook.

Well then it won't be difficult for you to prove, since your such an expert.

Oh wait? Did I just ask you for proof?! About as much chance of getting proof from you as there was of finding WMD's in Iraq.



Originally posted by Rookwood
You seem to pretty forgetful with this particular detail, don't you?

I remember just fine. And I remember your retarded argument of how Yoda obviously improved because he went from stuggling catching a crane to moving Landing Crafts. HAHAHAHAHA..

Yes Rockwood, Yoda's TK became 100 times more powerful out of nowhere!






Originally posted by Rookwood
He fought on many worlds -

Off the top of my head:

Kashyyyk

Ilum

Vjun

Axion

Thustra

Rugosa

Coruscant

Bpfasshi

Wow 8 fights?? Yeah at the age of 900 he MUST have become 100 times more powerful after 8 MORE FIGHTS!

Kashyyk and Coruscant were right at the end of the CW where your claiming he already had a huge power boost (LOL). I know about Ilum and Vjun. Your going to have to quote me the sources of the other worlds he fought in.


Originally posted by Rookwood
Hmm - going from being able to lift up a durasteel pillar - to being able to manhandle multiple massive CIS Landing-Craft all at once?


HAHAHAHA

Your actually making that same point again! Jeez you are beyond retarded! Multiple landing crafts are like what 100 times heavier than a pillar!

So your actually claiming Yoda became 100'S of times more powerful just in the use of his Force TK.

Rockwood your a complete TOOL! And you've shown yourself for what a retard you really are!


Originally posted by Rookwood
You've never seen Clone Wars?



Yep the original toon and the more canon current series which is more in line with the movies. You know.. The one you ignore. But ignoring canon isn't a new concept for you.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Hahaha. Yeah, I'm sure Vader let his boy win.


I'm sure Lucas's assessment of their abilities is > yours.








Originally posted by Rookwood
What does that have to do with Vader's mechanics and armor weighing him down?

Because he had great mechanical strength to carry the load genius.

Same way Grievous does it, and still moves at incredible speeds.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This is laughable coming from you. You continually ignore canon. In fact your doing so right now with this whole "Vader is damn slow" bull crap.


Hahahahahaha. I'm seeing so much PMS on this post.

Vader is damn slow, and to state otherwise is to ignore Canon.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Nephthys pointing something out is not canon either unless he back it up with a canon source.

That's not what you said last time - you agreed with him; so the matter was settled.

Unless now you're changing your mind?



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Well then it won't be difficult for you to prove, since your such an expert.

Oh wait? Did I just ask you for proof?! About as much chance of getting proof from you as there was of finding WMD's in Iraq.

You mean you don't know enough about Yoda, to know he was rusty ?

And so now you've changed your mind on agreeing with it, now?



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I remember just fine. And I remember your retarded argument of how Yoda obviously improved because he went from stuggling catching a crane to moving Landing Crafts. HAHAHAHAHA..

Yes Rockwood, Yoda's TK became 100 times more powerful out of nowhere!

"Stuggling", what is "stuggling"? Your baby-gibberish is cute.

Mhm, that's right, 'Tard. As you can see
KqVcZ1GeBIc
1:25 -1:55

You've never seen Clone Wars, have you?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Wow 8 fights?? Yeah at the age of 900 he MUST have become 100 times more powerful after 8 MORE FIGHTS!

8 mor FIGHTS! Like wen da rebel allience wen to endor an had a FIGHT wit da empire!

Hahahahahahaha. So let me get this straight, every time there was a massive battle in either trilogy, it was just a "FIGHT"?

So, at Endor, where hundreds of people fought each other, that was a "FIGHT"?

Same on Hoth and Naboo?

You ****ing Retard. Hahahahahahahahaha.

In retard-ese war must equal one big FIGHT.

Yeah, but Yoda fought multiple opponents on most of those worlds, and gained more experience from a Galaxy-Wide war, that he had never had experience fighting in before.

And also focused his swordsmanship and abilities. But hey, that's "Power-Progression" - or in your language - "FIGHT"

LOL.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I know about Ilum and Vjun. Your going to have to quote me the sources of the other worlds he fought in.

You mean you only know about two planets Yoda fought on?





Originally posted by DARTH POWER

EEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH

Your actually making that same point again! Jeez you are beyond FIGHTS! Multiple landing crafts are like what 100 times heavier than a pillar!
So your actually claiming Yoda became 100'S of times more powerful just in the use of his Force TK.
Rockwood your a complete FIGHTS! And you've shown yourself for what a FIGHTS you really are!

Damn, so many FIGHTS in Star Wars.

Yep, Yoda went from Canonically being able to lift a durasteel pillar with much strain - to being able to manhandle massive CIS Carriers.

Unless of course you want to pretend Canon is wrong.

But yes, to be able to do that, takes much strength in the Force in a general way, and Yoda after much experience fighting in a Galaxy-Wide War he had never fought in the likes of before, he gained much experience and focusing of power, as a result.

And if you weren't such a water-headed Noob, you'd know that.

Now finish your mashed carrots, before your Mother/Care-Taker scolds you.

You do want to go play out in the yard after dinner, right?



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Yep the original toon and the more canon current series which is more in line with the movies. You know.. The one you ignore. But ignoring canon isn't a new concept for you.

It's all Canon, my mentally-challenged friend.

But that's okay - go crawl into your crib, and get rocked to sleep by your mother - because tomorrow, you're going to go to Pre-school classes (Adult Day Care) and show everyone there your star wars action figures.

Whoops, did I say "war"? I meant FIGHTS. Star FIGHTS.

Considering how one day, the Cerebral-Fluid in your massive head will overtake your tiny brain and fragile skull - every day of life is like a gift from above.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm sure Lucas's assessment of their abilities is > yours.

Not likely, because I agree with him.





Originally posted by El Retard

Because he had great mechanical strength to carry the load

He had a damaged fleshly-torso, whose lungs had been ravaged by fire and soot and all but inoperable; most of his skin was dead, and he had lost a great majority of Midichlorians from being damaged at the cellular-level.

His fleshly core was all but dying; physically-weak and ravaged - and was forced to support heavy mechanical parts - and over that, heavier body armor, that constricted his movement, and required him to call upon the Force, just to move conventionally.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Same way Grievous does it,

The core of Grievous on the other hand, was not weakened, dying flesh - but metal.

Unlike Vader, Grievous had the type of core that could unyieldingly support a massive frame of mechanics sustainably under it's own a power - and also move quickly with limbs and a body that could gyrate and bend easily.

Unlike Vader, under it's own power, Grievous' body was built to move with incredible speed, in an easily sustained-fashion.

- That's the difference between the guy clambering around in a heavy life-support-system - and the guy who could perform 26 swings per-second.

You should watch the Original Trilogy and Prequel Trilogy sometime - they're good trilogies.

I do believe my previous post was the last time a coherent point was made here.

I think that's a bit of a stretch Tempest, but I'd say that half of the posts on this page have no coherent points in them.

It has basically turned into Rockwood calling Darth Power an idiot.

And vice-versa.

That's what happens when threads last too long. No one makes an argument and just bashes each other.....Sigh....

Welcome to KMC.

Anyway, I stand by my assessment. Without orbalisks, I don't think Bane can prevail.

Agreed. Bane has shown impressive feats in the EU, but people forget that Vader has too. Everyone thinks that Vader is weak to lightning, but I'm sure he learned a way to counter it like Obi-Wan did. Also, Vader takes a rediculous amount of lightning from Starkiller in TFUII and he didn't die, only fell to his knees.

Please respond to my post The Tempest.

Which one?

Basically I have only ever seen TL feats from Vader and I think we can believe that Vader at very least rivals him in this area,while being much more impressive in others.

Drawing on TFU feats is a dead argument. If you want to exclude them because of their incompatibility with the films, we'll be doing that for all EU regardless of time period, given that a cogent argument cannot be provided for the discrepancy.

With respect to Bane vs. Vader, ares834 has pointed out that Vader's speed is nowhere near as lethargic as some might suggest, and there's no evidence that Bane would blitz a Force user of Vader's caliber.

That just means that there have been a fee Force Users throughout history that are more powerful than the Jedis in the films. Nothing wrong with that, TUF on the other hand has the same Jedis we see in the films doing stuff they could never do in the films.

And for the record even since the PT was released George has said that the slowness we see in the OT were accurate.

No. Not only is there no evidence to suggest Force users from preceding eras were stronger by virtue of chronological placement, the Bane books remark that the dark side was in fact weaker due to broad dissemination among a large group of Sith. Consequently, the fact that the Sith numbered two during the films and Palpatine's machinations pulled a shroud of the dark side over the galaxy, the expectation would be that the Sith of the film era would be stronger.

If you had some evidence to suggest greater midi-chlorian counts or something similar, I'd consider it. As it stands, you're seeking to confuse a stylistic discrepancy for an accurate reflection of the quality of Force users when there's nothing to suggest it.

The argument is rejected.

With respect to Lucas's decision, he would later add include comparatively fast cyborgs and old men in the prequels, obviously relegating his remark as an offhand one that has as much basis as his quip that Anakin's scar resulted from a slip in the bathtub as opposed to Ventress. Clearly it was reflective of a limitation in choreography.

A lot of Banes best feats cpome from when he was on planets where there werent any siths however, and plus following path of destruction the rule of two was nomore where he goes on to do some of his best feats.

Only eveidence i need is the Jedis and Siths of old performing much better feats than those from the movies.

As much as I do not condome Battlemasters insults to Darth Power she has a point when she points out that Vader is compeltely different type of cyborg to Grievous, and that his core is human, whereas Grievous is all robot. And second comment is clearly joke by george. And prove that old men being fastis not an exception but a rule, please.

Vader has also been trained by who many consider to be the most powerful Sith of all time. Bane was trained in an era that, as The Tempest pointed out, was actually weaker in the Dark Side. Palpatine and Vader brought the power of the Dark Side to it's highest in many mellenia. Vader made Kota look like a rag doll. The same Kota who was standing against the "all powerful" Starkiller. And Vader stalemated Starkiller for a while in the book. Vader also killed many Jedi in the EU alone. The 501st only showed up at the END of the Kessel trap! Vader Killed most of them alone. He regarded the 501st as if he didn't need their help and was surprised by their arrival.

Or the Jedis were weaker.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Vader has also been trained by who many consider to be the most powerful Sith of all time. Bane was trained in an era that, as The Tempest pointed out, was actually weaker in the Dark Side. Palpatine and Vader brought the power of the Dark Side to it's highest in many mellenia. Vader made Kota look like a rag doll. The same Kota who was standing against the "all powerful" Starkiller. And Vader stalemated Starkiller for a while in the book. Vader also killed many Jedi in the EU alone. The 501st only showed up at the END of the Kessel trap! Vader Killed most of them alone. He regarded the 501st as if he didn't need their help and was surprised by their arrival.

Only a fool would think that Sidious at the times that he was Vaders master was the most powerful sith of all time. DE, possibly, but in the movies he was pretty weak. Have you even played the Kotor games? Nihilus would be the most powerful.

Irrelevant, the sentiment remains. Bane never ascribes the condition to be confined by geography, but that the dark side is weakened entirely by Kaan's Sith. Consequently, the feats of film!Sith should be in excess of the feats we see in Path of Destruction. The fact that they aren't, by strict viewing of the films, further illustrates that it is simply a stylistic choice.



Which is the result of a stylistic choice. Darth Maul, wounded, ragdolls a spaceship in TCW, which is in far excess of anything we see from any Jedi or Sith from the films. Yet we know from his upcoming battle with Sidious that, even with Savage Opress on his side, he's no match for his former Master.

Attempting to conflate style with quality is doomed to fail.



The fact that Vader is a trained Force user and has access to an abundance of midi-chlorians whereas Grievous does not is further proof that Vader should be faster.



Certainly. Four elderly Force users have been portrayed in combat throughout the films: Dooku, Sidious, Yoda, and Obi-Wan. Of the four, only old!Obi-Wan has demonstrated lethargic reflexes and fighting prowess. Of the four, he is the only one shown fighting in the original trilogy.

Logically, it is a limitation of choreography, as the majority of elderly Force users in combat are portrayed to be highly adroit.



I said Sith, not Jedi. The Bane trilogy establishes that the dark side is stronger when utilized by fewer Sith. Ergo, the Sith of the films should be at the very least comparable to Bane and Zannah, and well in excess of Kaan's mooks.

Again, the argument that older Force users are better is rejected.

In that case then you haves to accept that the presence of The Lost tribe of the Sith would mean that the Siths from the mvoies would also be under the same limittation.

More Jedis form the movies doing stuff in Eu they cannot do.

But Vader is similar to Yoda given that he has to expemd a lot fo Force energy just to mvoe his old body. Yoda is able to mvoe a sfats as he does because he is sitll much more poweul than vader, plus vaders robotic parts is bigger hidnrance.

Sidious was also slow, and plus, it could just eb that obi-wan is not as powerful as them.

Siths, jedis, whatever. If you want to reject Banes feats from planets where there werent any other siths, then you have to admit that the lost tribe of the sith would have greatly weaknned palpatine.Your choice bro?

Why are you misquoting me?

Few points worth considering about whether the older force users have higher midichlorian counts. Both Bane, and Revan, were suspected of beign the Sith'ari, which was sort of like the Sith Chosen One. Also, given that they were both invited to the House of the Ones of Mortis (in cut content, but is canon) it should show that they liekly had veyr high midichlorian counts. Given that vader lost most of his at Mustafar he was no longer anywhere neart as pwoerful as he could have been.Plus how do you explain people like Nihilus who does not use midichlorians?

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
In that case then you haves to accept that the presence of The Lost tribe of the Sith would mean that the Siths from the mvoies would also be under the same limittation.

Sure, but the limitation would be far less given the reduction of Kaan's Sith in addition to Palpatine's machinations drawing a shroud of the dark side over the galaxy, something Bane's era did not have.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
More Jedis form the movies doing stuff in Eu they cannot do.

Which is another demonstration of stylistic variance that pervades the EU and further undermines your argument.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
But Vader is similar to Yoda given that he has to expemd a lot fo Force energy just to mvoe his old body. Yoda is able to mvoe a sfats as he does because he is sitll much more poweul than vader, plus vaders robotic parts is bigger hidnrance.

There is no proof that Yoda is much more powerful than Vader.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Sidious was also slow, and plus, it could just eb that obi-wan is not as powerful as them.

Sidious moved with far greater speed during his battle with Yoda than he did during his battle with Mace, which is yet another example of stylistic variance within a single film (born from the fact that McDiarmid was doing the lion's share of the battle with Mace whereas a stunt performer donned the Emperor's robe for the clash with Yoda), which is one of the many nails in the coffin of your EU-supremacist argument.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Siths, jedis, whatever. If you want to reject Banes feats from planets where there werent any other siths, then you have to admit that the lost tribe of the sith would have greatly weaknned palpatine.Your choice bro?

You seem to think I have a problem with that. As you point out, Sidious's feats in the films are low key compared to the surrounding EU. The Lost Tribe's presence is serves as a broad factor for explaining that, but assuming my goal here were to cripple your argument and undermine EU!Bane's feats, then I succeeded.

Thus is the danger of arguing against the films. It's an uphill battle opponents are destined to lose every time.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Plus how do you explain people like Nihilus who does not use midichlorians?

Simple: Nihilus clearly doesn't exist. The films make it abundantly clear that life cannot exist void of midi-chlorians and only Jedi can remain after death. Nihilus, Vitiate, EU!Sidious, essence transfer, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos... we can all wave them goodbye.

Nope it is not bout how many there are but the fact that there are lots. Which is case through history, as there have always been at least one army of siths somewhere in the galaxy, from the original schism all the way to the lost trive of teh sith making their rpesence known.

Maybe Palaptine thought that it was just him and his apprentice but he was clearly WRONG. So by your own logic, Palaptine himself was affected by the same weakness that kann and his brotherhood were.

Of course you can admit that you is wrong and accept that as long as they are seperated by at leats a planet then they would not feel the effects, i which case Banes nbest feats of destroying the te,mple, polus the stuff other POD, were all done without that limitatyoon. Your choice.,

Ah my bad, always forget about Sidiouss' speed against Yoda, however that was only visible for seconds, and plus in a way it proves that Sidious was probably goign easy on Mace to turn Ani to the darkside.

So clearly Old Ben just wasn;t as powerful as the likes of Dooku or Sidious, and vader was compeltely different kind of cyrborg to grievous.

Plus you shiuld lso consider that throuygh inbreeding the Lost tribe of the Sith probably greowing in numbers over that epriod, so possibly may have been at their highest numbers around time of Sidious' reign. Which by your argument makes sidious one of the weakest siths in all of history. Zing brother.

By your arugment most powerful sith of all time was... first Jedi to ever turn to the darkside. Ever since then the number of siths in the galaxy has always been growing.

So correect answer for most powerful sith is... ajunta pall. First Jedi to ever fall to the darkside. All the darkside in the galaxy and nobody to share it with.

You're not quite grasping my overall agenda here, bro.

We've already established that Sidious's film!feats are comparatively lame to many EU!feats for Bane and others. Accepting the presence of the Lost Tribe only serves to provide a broad explanation for that lameness.

It is you who seeks to tout Bane's feats above Sidious's. All I need do is point out that the presence of the Lost Tribe in addition to the thousands of Sith under Kaan would require that Bane's feats even as early as Path of Destruction be weaker than Sidious's own, who only had the Tribe to contend with, but was enhanced by the shroud of the dark side that did not exist in the time of Bane.

Logically, Bane must be weaker by the rules established in his books. Anything to the contrary is merely a stylistic choice.

Either way, the outcome remains: Sidious is more powerful.

Not true at all. As proven through imbreeding, Lost tribe of the Siths numbers would have been at their highest during era of Sidious. Only time the Siths have ever been left alone in peace tog row and flourish, so this mst likely the geratest number of siths of all time.

In other words, the era of Sidious saw highest number of Siths, of all time, in the history of the galaxy. hence why Siths from the movies are at their very weakest, and Jedis are at their weakest too because of shroud of the darkside. Darkside was most likely, being shared by, approximately, billions of Siths, during era of Sidious.

You have proven your veyr argument wrong by your twisted reasoning.

The EU prevails! Long live the Sith Supremists!

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Not true at all. As proven through imbreeding, Lost tribe of the Siths numbers would have been at their highest during era of Sidious. Only time the Siths have ever been left alone in peace tog row and flourish, so this mst likely the geratest number of siths of all time.

In other words, the era of Sidious saw highest number of Siths, of all time, in the history of the galaxy. hence why Siths from the movies are at their very weakest, and Jedis are at their weakest too because of shroud of the darkside. Darkside was most likely, being shared by, approximately, billions of Siths, during era of Sidious.

You have proven your veyr argument wrong by your twisted reasoning.

The EU prevails! Long live the Sith Supremists!

False, sir. You have no means of determining the Lost Tribe's numbers nor proving that they had swelled.

The presence of the Lost Tribe in conjunction with Kaan's Sith would indicate that Bane's era was weaker still. The shroud of the dark side would weaken the Jedi but only empower the Sith.

Bane's era had more Sith and no shroud. His was weaker. XD

Originally posted by The_Tempest
False, sir. You have no means of determining the Lost Tribe's numbers nor proving that they had swelled.

The presence of the Lost Tribe in conjunction with Kaan's Sith would indicate that Bane's era was weaker still. The shroud of the dark side would weaken the Jedi but only empower the Sith.

Bane's era had more Sith and no shroud. His was weaker. XD

How do you explain imbreeding?>

Kaans siths were small potatoes. Difference is Lost Tribe were left to prosper in peace and to multiply in numbers.

As a part time agricultural consultant and having spent a lot of time studying anthrolopolgy IO an tell you know little of how populaTION GROWTH IN THE presence of imbreeding and peaceful civilisation.

Yes, but this is Star Wars, home to painfully small numbers. I did some digging and according to Apocalypse, the Lost Tribe numbered approximately 5,000.

Any stats for Kaan's Brotherhood?

Hmm not sure on exact number but I believe it was in the hundreds. Wouldnt have made too much of a difference.

But all joking aside do you really think that the presence of the lost tribe really would have dinimished the power of the darkside for Sidious?

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
That's what happens when threads last too long. No one makes an argument and just bashes each other.....Sigh....

Seriously you try arguing with this shit:

Originally posted by Rookwood



Yep, Yoda went from Canonically being able to lift a durasteel pillar with much strain - to being able to manhandle massive CIS Carriers.

Unless of course you want to pretend Canon is wrong.






The guy's calling me an idiot and a retard for not accepting his conclusion that it's apparently canon fact that Yoda became 100 times more powerful during the CW.

I think it's clear whose making the retarded arguments.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The guy's calling me an idiot and a retard for not accepting that it's canon that Yoda became significantly more powerful during the CW.

I think it's clear whose making the retarded arguments.

- Yeah - You.

Mr. "I don't understand Power-Progression, so I'm just going to pretend that Canon is wrong and I am right."

Bravo, Bright Eyes. clapping

Keep 'em comin'.

Originally posted by Rookwood
- Yeah - You.

Mr. "I don't understand Power-Progression,

Oh yeah the understanding of "Power Progression.."

That after a few more fights Yoda at the age of 900 is going to suddenly increase in power 100 times

The difference in the scale of feats is down to one thing. Force powers portrayed differently in different mediums. I know that's a bit hard for you to grasp, but that's the truth. Deal with it.

There's never any mention anywhere of Yoda improving even a little during the Prequels, let alone on the kind of scale your imagination has taken you.

Originally posted by Rookwood
so I'm just going to pretend that Canon is wrong and I am right."


Yeah and your one to talk. You've been given plenty of evidence from canon that Vader was fast. And yet your ignoring it. You keep claiming Vader is slow, yet have failed to provide any evidence at all to back up that claim. And yet you keep repeating the claim stating "everyone knows it." That's called Trolling.

You've lost this argument as always. And I've had enough of your trolling anyway.