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Who wins this match?

Goku pretty easily.

Like in the other thread teams don't work in DBZ. Goku kills them in 5 seconds.

The only DBZ character that can do anything to SSJ4 Goku is Vegito and that's even debatable.

goku unfortunately.

Assuming Gohan's unlocked potential leads him to a ssj4 level, then he should win easy.

?

Originally posted by dvampire
Assuming Gohan's unlocked potential leads him to a ssj4 level, then he should win easy.

It shouldn't.

This'd be the form he used back in the Buu saga after the Elder Supreme Kai helped him (I like calling it 'Mystic Gohan'). It's around SSJ3 level but without the endurance problems.

Gohan has always been more gifted than Goku when it came to power, he just lack the motivation to train. After the Cell saga he stop training like Goku to reach a new ssj form. But when he did train, he was always shown to be able reach a new level of power faster than Goku. He should be more power than Goku even at ssj4 level because he has more hidden power than Goku does. Goku has always been shown to have to work a little harder to reach a new level (ssj2). So Gohan's mystic powers should put him above ssj4 Goku, if we ignore the fact that Gohan was able to go ssj in GT.

We saw the form in action. It's not SSJ4 level.

Lol Gohan is not even close to SSJ4. Just no. There's no evidence. Gohan isn't anywhere close to Gohan Buu which is leagues weaker than any SSJ4.

You know, I'm going to change my stance on this.


Full Potential Gohan was effortlessly beating on Superbuu with a Fused SSJ3 Gotenks inside him, and Gotenks at SSj3 was stronger than Goku SSJ3.

So he may very well be up at SSJ4 level.

Teamwork does indeed not matter here, but Gohan is on a level where he can effortlessly stomp Gotenks, so it's not like it needs to matter.

Originally posted by Q99
You know, I'm going to change my stance on this.


Full Potential Gohan was effortlessly beating on Superbuu with a Fused SSJ3 Gotenks inside him, and Gotenks at SSj3 was stronger than Goku SSJ3.

So he may very well be up at SSJ4 level.

Teamwork does indeed not matter here, but Gohan is on a level where he can effortlessly stomp Gotenks, so it's not like it needs to matter.
I remember Buutenks putting Gohan on the run actually.

Did I misremember? Well, at the very least, Gohan was doing *much* better against Superbuu than SSJ3 Gotenks did, and SSJ3 Gotenks was much stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

So Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks in any case.

Originally posted by Q99
You know, I'm going to change my stance on this.


Full Potential Gohan was effortlessly beating on Superbuu with a Fused SSJ3 Gotenks inside him, and Gotenks at SSj3 was stronger than Goku SSJ3.

So he may very well be up at SSJ4 level.

Teamwork does indeed not matter here, but Gohan is on a level where he can effortlessly stomp Gotenks, so it's not like it needs to matter.

While he was a good deal more powerful than DBZ SSJ3 Goku, I don't think it means he is at the same level as that of DBGT SSJ4 Goku, who made his SSJ3 form look piss-poor in comparison, and iirc, DBGT Goku was more powerful than his DBZ version.

And yeah, Super Buu with Gotenks powering him was trouncing Gohan, though I believe Gohan held his own for a brief time. Which is why Goku wanted to fuse with Gohan in the first place.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
While he was a good deal more powerful than DBZ SSJ3 Goku, I don't think it means he is at the same level as that of DBGT SSJ4 Goku, who made his SSJ3 form look piss-poor in comparison, and iirc, DBGT Goku was more powerful than his DBZ version.

Point is it was still Gohan > Superbuu who was ~= SSJ3 Gotenks who in turn was > SSJ3 Goku (As SSJ1 Gotenks was performing similar to SSJ3 Goku).

So being much better than SSJ3 doesn't mean he's stronger than Mystic Gohan. Even being better than SSJ3 Gotenks doesn't.

And I think Goku only really surpassed his old self when he got SSJ4. The whole Kid thing and all.

Originally posted by Q99
So being much better than SSJ3 doesn't mean he's stronger than Mystic Gohan. Even being better than SSJ3 Gotenks doesn't.

And I think Goku only really surpassed his old self when he got SSJ4. The whole Kid thing and all.

It doesn't, but when you take into account that Goku stated Super Baby Vegeta was stronger than anyone else he had encountered (which includes Super Buu w/ Gohan absorbed), SSJ4 Goku would have to be far more powerful than the Gohan that fought Super Buu.

The kid thing didn't expressly weaken him in terms of power level I think, and between DBZ & DBGT, Goku had been training. Heck, in GT, Goku takes out both Cell & Freeza in his base form.

Ok. It sounds to me like Gohan's power might be a similar multiplier to SSJ4... but Goku's base was much higher by that point so he's still easily the stronger anyway.

And Gotenks is completely irrelevant.

Originally posted by Q99
Ok. It sounds to me like Gohan's power might be a similar multiplier to SSJ4...

And Gotenks is completely irrelevant.

Possibly. I can't accurately tell. SSJ4 is still the superior amp though.

Of course. I did not even bother to mention him.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Possibly. I can't accurately tell. SSJ4 is still the superior amp though.

Mm, Gohan's has no time limit. Until he mysteriously misplaces it between shows, it's effectively his base form.

Originally posted by Q99
It shouldn't.

This'd be the form he used back in the Buu saga after the Elder Supreme Kai helped him (I like calling it 'Mystic Gohan'). It's around SSJ3 level but without the endurance problems.
Actually, it's quite a ways above.

Gohan reached his max potential, meaning that he couldn't get stronger. The reason why he couldn't power up to a super saiyan was because of this reason.

Gohan's potential was hinted to be beyond that of Goku through the entire series, meaning that Gohan should have become more powerful than Goku could ever become.

Going by the power level chart super saiyan three Goku has a power level of 2.4⋿10 and super Buu a power level of 3.6⋿10, or 1.5 times that of Goku's. Gohan in turn was strictly more powerful than super Buu.

The most reasonable estimate of Gohan's power level would be twice that of Goku's.

Originally posted by Q99
Mm, Gohan's has no time limit. Until he mysteriously misplaces it between shows, it's effectively his base form.

I didn't realize that SSJ4 had a time limit.
Yeah, it being an unlocking of Gohan's potential is why I wouldn't really classify it as an amp akin to the Super Saiyan transformations, but on the other hand, he cannot access the Super Saiyan forms.
But the reason I said SSJ4 was superior was because it could over-ride the magic of the Black Star Dragon Balls.

Goku stated that Rildo is as strong as Buu was... And givn that base form Baby is already leagues stronger than Rildo according to Dr. Myuu...

Shit, Goku's training with Uub bust have been nutters...

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I didn't realize that SSJ4 had a time limit.

Not a very strict one, but it does use up power and thus can only be sustained so long. During the Omega Shenron fight Goku was in it too long and reverted to kid mode.

Gohan solos both these chumps

Originally posted by juggerman
Gohan solos both these chumps

Hrmm, Nope....

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hrmm, Nope....

yup

Originally posted by Q99
Not a very strict one, but it does use up power and thus can only be sustained so long. During the Omega Shenron fight Goku was in it too long and reverted to kid mode.

Ahh, right.
Gohan's power-up should technically have a time-limit as well though, as it should also use up Gohan's unlocked energy.

Here's something crazy to think about...

In GT, Goku stated that base form Rildo was MORE powerful than Majin Buu-- yet Goku was every bit his equal as a base level Saiyan. ie. base level Goku=/>Majin Buu. After Goku transformed into a SSJ1, Rildo stated that his power increased "a hundred fold" (even though the DBZ Daizenshuu states a base level Saiyan's PL increases 50x when they transform into a SSJ1, GT is a different entity entirely.) ie. in GT, Goku was over 100x stronger than Majin Buu as a SSJ1. Absolutely crazy.

Anyway, if we then use the same multipliers given to us in the DBZ Daizenshuu, then a SSJ2's PL is 2x that of a SSJ1, and a SSJ3's PL is 4x that of a SSJ2(and those are likely underestimations, given that GT's multipliers seem to be well above Z's.) As for the PL of a SSJ4, who knows? Is it 2x stronger than a SSJ3? 10x stronger? Your guess is as good as mine-- all I know is that Goku was literally in awe of the power he possessed as a SSJ4.

Either way, there is no feasible way that Gotenks and Gohan can even approach SSJ4 Goku's power, imo. Frankly, I doubt very much that Goku would even need to access his SSJ4 transformation to beat the duo.

Originally posted by Galan007
Here's something crazy to think about...

In GT, Goku stated that base form Rildo was MORE powerful than Majin Buu-- yet Goku was every bit his equal as a base level Saiyan. ie. base level Goku=/>Majin Buu. After Goku transformed into a SSJ1, Rildo stated that his power increased "a hundred fold" (even though the DBZ Daizenshuu states a base level Saiyan's PL increases 50x when they transform into a SSJ1, GT is a different entity entirely.) ie. in GT, Goku was over 100x stronger than Majin Buu as a SSJ1. Absolutely crazy.

Anyway, if we then use the same multipliers given to us in the DBZ Daizenshuu, then a SSJ2's PL is 2x that of a SSJ1, and a SSJ3's PL is 4x that of a SSJ2(and those are likely underestimations, given that GT's multipliers seem to be well above Z's.) As for the PL of a SSJ4, who knows? Is it 2x stronger than a SSJ3? 10x stronger? Your guess is as good as mine-- all I know is that Goku was literally in awe of the power he possessed as a SSJ4.

Either way, there is no feasible way that Gotenks and Gohan can even approach SSJ4 Goku's power, imo. Frankly, I doubt very much that Goku would even need to access his SSJ4 transformation to beat the duo.

I don't think it would be as low as 2x SSJ3 honestly. Super Baby Vegeta (I forget which form) was kicking SSJ3 Goku's ass up and down the street without breaking a sweat. Once Goku transformed, he instead kicked Baby Vegeta's ass up and down the street without breaking a sweat. Baby Vegeta had to transform into a Golden Oozaru in order to match and overpower SSJ4 Goku.

Anyway, yeah GT Base Goku was crazy powerful when compared to his DBZ levels. Like I previously said, he stomped Final Form Frieza and Perfect Cell by himself.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I don't think it would be as low as 2x SSJ3 honestly. Super Baby Vegeta (I forget which form) was kicking SSJ3 Goku's ass up and down the street without breaking a sweat. Once Goku transformed, he instead kicked Baby Vegeta's ass up and down the street without breaking a sweat. Baby Vegeta had to transform into a Golden Oozaru in order to match and overpower SSJ4 Goku. Very true.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Anyway, yeah GT Base Goku was crazy powerful when compared to his DBZ levels. Like I previously said, he stomped Final Form Frieza and Perfect Cell by himself.

He beat them effortlessly... Like it was sport. But considering his base form was equal to Majin Buu, I supposed it makes sense that he'd beat Frieza/Cell so easily.

Good points made here.

In GT Gohan and the now grown up parts of Gotenks were planning to help SSJ4 take out Baby.

He promptly told them to stfu and give him the power since SSJ4 was the only thing that could beat him. They agreed.

Honestly not seeing where the argument can be made for the team.

Gohan lost his uber-power between shows.

Counter balanced by the parts of Gotenks being older.

Originally posted by juggerman
yup

Just read what the others have already posted Juggs... The power scale gets thrown off so badly in GT.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Just read what the others have already posted Juggs... The power scale gets thrown off so badly in GT.

It seems that some people might be basing the theoretical PL of a SSJ4 off Goku's PL in DBZ, which is obviously quite faulty. Like I mentioned above, Goku was vastly more powerful in GT than he was in Z. In fact, it can be argued that Goku's base-level Saiyan form in GT was just as strong as his SSJ3 form was in Z---Beating Frieza and Cell as a base-level Saiyan like they were fodder, matching Rildo(who was more powerful than Majin Buu) as a base-level Saiyan, increasing his power "a hundred fold" just by transforming into a SSJ1, etc.

Like it or not, Goku had logically become hundredS of times more powerful by the time GT rolled around. Frankly, I believe Vegito is the only Z-era being whose power would hold a candle to SSJ4 Goku. Just my humble opinion.

Originally posted by Galan007


It seems that some people might be basing the theoretical PL of a SSJ4 off Goku's PL in DBZ, which is obviously quite faulty. Like I mentioned above, Goku was vastly more powerful in GT than he was in Z. In fact, it can be argued that Goku's base-level Saiyan form in GT was just as strong as his SSJ3 form was in Z---Beating Frieza and Cell as a base-level Saiyan like they were fodder, matching Rildo(who was more powerful than Majin Buu) as a base-level Saiyan, increasing his power "a hundred fold" just by transforming into a SSJ1, etc.

Like it or not, Goku had logically become hundredS of times more powerful by the time GT rolled around. Frankly, I believe Vegito is the only Z-era being whose power would hold a candle to SSJ4 Goku. Just my humble opinion.

Yeah...

Makes me actually wonder about SSJ4 Gogeta's actual PL... I mean that guy was effortlessly spanking being that run 2 regular SSJ4's through the ringer... Gogeta never put any actual effort in that fight, the 10 minutes he existed anyway.

Originally posted by Galan007
Very true.



He beat them effortlessly... Like it was sport. But considering his base form was equal to Majin Buu, I supposed it makes sense that he'd beat Frieza/Cell so easily.

Yeah. Kind of sad actually, trouncing two villains who previously pushed his shit in, but I suppose that's to be expected when the levels of power skyrocket by such an insane degree.

I'm just curious. Which Buu did Goku specifically refer to? The first Buu we saw, or Kid Buu?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Yeah...

Makes me actually wonder about SSJ4 Gogeta's actual PL... I mean that guy was effortlessly spanking being that run 2 regular SSJ4's through the ringer... Gogeta never put any actual effort in that fight, the 10 minutes he existed anyway.

And he effortlessly converted said being's most powerful attack...with a kick.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Yeah...

Makes me actually wonder about SSJ4 Gogeta's actual PL... I mean that guy was effortlessly spanking being that run 2 regular SSJ4's through the ringer... Gogeta never put any actual effort in that fight, the 10 minutes he existed anyway. Yeah. The DBZ Daizenshuu states that fusions are essentially like multiplying power levels together. ie. if Goku's PL=1,000 and Vegeta's PL=1,000, a fusion between them would possess a PL of 1,000,000.

...And that was with Z's multipliers. GT's multipliers seemed to be significantly greater.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I'm just curious. Which Buu did Goku specifically refer to? The first Buu we saw, or Kid Buu? Dunno. All Goku said is that Rildo was "even more powerful than Majin Buu." My guess would be Kid Buu, though.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah. The DBZ Daizenshuu states that fusions are essentially like multiplying power levels together. ie. if Goku's PL=1,000 and Vegeta's PL=1,000, a fusion between them would possess a PL of 1,000,000.

...And that was with Z's multipliers. GT's multipliers seemed to be significantly greater.

If I were to hazard a guess, given that Omega Shenron was effortlessly trouncing both Goku & Vegeta simultaneously, and the only technique of any threat to him from either fighter was the Universal Spirit Bomb (Which is a huge game ender anyway), and the fuison doing a complete 180 to Gogeta effortlessly trouncing Omega... I would say that the PL x PL is fairly consistent... Perhaps only slightly more, perhaps PLx2 x PLx2?

It's really guesswork at that point, because we don;t know what the SSJ4 multiplier is over SSJ3, nor do we know just how much stronger Omega was over Syn Shenron. That and, the only comparables we ever really got came from Rildo and the Cell/Frieza fight.

Come to think of it, the massive jump 17 got as Super 17 must have been really wonky too... I mean 2 17's, less powerful than an Acended SSJ (Vegeta during Imperfect Cell Saga) combined to make a being more powerful than Gold Oozaru Baby... That multiplier is F**ked up!

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero

Come to think of it, the massive jump 17 got as Super 17 must have been really wonky too... I mean 2 17's, less powerful than an Acended SSJ (Vegeta during Imperfect Cell Saga) combined to make a being more powerful than Gold Oozaru Baby... That multiplier is F**ked up! To be fair, Super 17 could absorb energy, and he had absorbed all of SSJ4 Goku's attacks, which allowed him to become stronger than Goku. But yeah, Super 17 iirc was too powerful for Goku as a Super Saiyan, which meant 17 had gotten a massive boost.

@Galan...

I wouldn't say Vegeto was/is around Super Saiyan 4 level during GT, that's too far up. I would say SS 2 Goku could give him a fight and SS3 would stomp him.

People are also forgetting the scene where Goku power level (in base form) was being read on the mecha planet and the machine couldn't even get a true reading on his level of power...his base form was off the charts.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
If I were to hazard a guess, given that Omega Shenron was effortlessly trouncing both Goku & Vegeta simultaneously, and the only technique of any threat to him from either fighter was the Universal Spirit Bomb (Which is a huge game ender anyway), and the fuison doing a complete 180 to Gogeta effortlessly trouncing Omega... I would say that the PL x PL is fairly consistent... Perhaps only slightly more, perhaps PLx2 x PLx2?

It's really guesswork at that point, because we don;t know what the SSJ4 multiplier is over SSJ3, nor do we know just how much stronger Omega was over Syn Shenron. That and, the only comparables we ever really got came from Rildo and the Cell/Frieza fight. Gogeta really did dominate Omega so effortlessly that it made him look pathetic-- and the fact that Gogeta could have killed Omega with only 2 blasts is even more astonishing. You're right though, the GT fusion multiplier was likely > the PLxPL value given to fusions in Z.

Yeah, all we really know is that Goku was, for all intents and purposes, several hundred times more powerful in GT than he was in Z, yet his SSJ4 transformation was still so powerful that he was literally in awe of it. Crazy.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Come to think of it, the massive jump 17 got as Super 17 must have been really wonky too... I mean 2 17's, less powerful than an Acended SSJ (Vegeta during Imperfect Cell Saga) combined to make a being more powerful than Gold Oozaru Baby... That multiplier is F**ked up! Haxxed energy absorption, ftw!

Originally posted by carver9
@Galan...

I wouldn't say Vegeto was/is around Super Saiyan 4 level during GT, that's too far up. I would say SS 2 Goku could give him a fight and SS3 would stomp him.

People are also forgetting the scene where Goku power level (in base form) was being read on the mecha planet and the machine couldn't even get a true reading on his level of power...his base form was off the charts.

We don't have much to go on as far as comparing SSJ4 Goku and Vegito goes. For all we know, Vegito could be > GT SSJ3 Goku, but inferior to SSJ4 Goku, due to the huge gap between SSJ3 & SSJ4. So all we can do is speculate as to how GT Goku & Vegito compare.

Galan's point still stands though. Vegito is the only dude in DBZ that could hope to put up a fight against SSJ4 Goku, simply because Vegito was far and away the most powerful character in DBZ, and Super Buu w/ Gohan absorbed (the second most powerful character) was confirmed to be weaker than Super Baby Vegeta.

Originally posted by carver9
@Galan...

I wouldn't say Vegeto was/is around Super Saiyan 4 level during GT, that's too far up. I would say SS 2 Goku could give him a fight and SS3 would stomp him. I didn't say Vegito would be able to defeat Goku. He's just the only character who *might*(doubtfully so) be able to give Goku a mediocre fight-- and he was far and away the most powerful being in DBZ-proper... By a HUGE margin.

Sniped you. estahuh

sneer

Twice.


biscuits

GT is noncanon garbage.

Powerscaling SSJ4 off of what the canon manga dictates is retarded. Only feats matter.

Stop it.

I sincerely hope that post wasn't directed at me. Clearly GT is non-canon, but that doesn't make the comparisons I used here invalid. srsly

As a base-level Saiyan, Goku=Rildo>Majin Buu>>>Frieza/Cell. Fact. As a SSJ1, Goku's power then increased "a hundred fold"-- thus Goku was over 100x more powerful than Majin Buu as a SSJ1. Fact. As I stated, all of the other multipliers referenced are just guess-timations that are based on what was formerly regarded as canon in Z. Like I also mentioned, said multipliers are likely drastic underestimations anyway. /shrug

What GT has to say about Majin Buu means exactly dick.

Originally posted by NemeBro
GT is noncanon garbage.

Powerscaling SSJ4 off of what the canon manga dictates is retarded. Only feats matter.

Stop it.

Nobody claimed GT to be canon outside of itself...

Considering it was based on Z, no. Feats are important, but are not the only thing.

How bout no?


Originally posted by NemeBro
What GT has to say about Majin Buu means exactly dick.

That was just....

Originally posted by NemeBro
What GT has to say about Majin Buu means exactly dick. Ridiculous.

The problem is that's the original series and GT doesn't come together well.

On one hand you can argue that super saiyan four Goku would be more powerful than Gohan because of the scaling. Rhildo being at par with Buu for instance.

But at the other hand Goku should never be able to become more powerful than Gohan because Gohan had a greater potential and had it unlocked.

Originally posted by Galan007
Ridiculous. Entirely true.

Would you say Old Man Logan would kill 615 Hulk because he did so to that verse's Hulk in his (Not canon to 616) own story?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Entirely true.

Would you say Old Man Logan would kill 615 Hulk because he did so to that verse's Hulk in his (Not canon to 616) own story?
What does that have to with whether or not Goku's statement is accurate or not?

Originally posted by Astner
The problem is that's the original series and GT doesn't come together well.

On one hand you can argue that super saiyan four Goku would be more powerful than Gohan because of the scaling. Rhildo being at par with Buu for instance.

But at the other hand Goku should never be able to become more powerful than Gohan because Gohan had a greater potential and had it unlocked. Elder Kai stated that Goku's "true potential"(ie. SSJ4) wouldn't be unlocked until they pulled his tail back out. So yeah, GT pretty much gave the middle finger to Gohan's potential surpassing Goku's.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Entirely true.

Would you say Old Man Logan would kill 615 Hulk because he did so to that verse's Hulk in his (Not canon to 616) own story? Poor analogy. GT did not take place in a separate/divergent universe from Z-- it was intended to have occurred in the SAME universe, with the SAME characters. Just because GT isn't canon to Z from a manga standpoint, doesn't change the writer intention. That said, GT clearly intended for Goku to be more powerful than he was during Z. Hundreds of times more powerful, in fact.

Originally posted by Galan007
Poor analogy. GT did not take place in a separate/divergent universe from Z-- it was intended to have occurred in the SAME universe. Just because GT isn't canon to Z from a manga standpoint, doesn't change the fact that the writers of GT were obviously using Z as their main reference-- and they blatantly intended Goku to be more powerful than he was during Z. Both the anime and GT mean exactly nothing when talking about the characters from the manga.

They could intend GT Goku to be whatever the **** they want to, writer intention is irrelevant.

And let me correct you: They were using the Z ANIME as their reference. Anime =/= Manga.

Not that any of this matters, by feats SSJ4 Goku is both relativistic and stronger than Goku physically, so would easily win.

But sorry, I'm right, you're wrong, too bad, so sad.

Sorry, but the only part of your post that is correct is the part where you said that Goku wins.

Everything else (including your horrid analogies) border on ridiculous. Again, GT was based exclusively on Z-- same characters, same universe, same timeline, etc. GT being non-canon to the DBZ manga (which I've never argued, btw) has nothing to do with the fact that in GT, Goku was intended to be VASTLY stronger than he was in Z. Once more: base-level Goku=Rildo>Majin Buu>>>Frieza/Cell. SSJ1 Goku was "a hundred fold" more powerful than base-level Goku-- thus SSJ1 Goku was over 100x more powerful than Buu as of GT. Those are all FACTS. End of story.

Don't argue just to argue.

What Goku was intended to be by the writers of the GT anime have no relevance towards the characters within the canon manga.

Are you trolling? This isn't that hard to grasp.

Nemebro mad.


Good thread. As always, Galan raped.

Originally posted by Galan007
Elder Kai stated that Goku's "true potential"(ie. SSJ4) wouldn't be unlocked until they pulled his tail back out. So yeah, GT pretty much gave the middle finger to Gohan's potential surpassing Goku's.

I'd say give Gohan his tail back so he can go SSJ4 as well, and get him back in the training game, and he'd pass them up again.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd say give Gohan his tail back so he can go SSJ4 as well, and get him back in the training game, and he'd pass them up again.

Can Gohan even go to SSJ?

Originally posted by NemeBro
What Goku was intended to be by the writers of the GT anime have no relevance towards the characters within the canon manga.

Are you trolling? This isn't that hard to grasp. Christ, I have repeatedly stated that GT is non-canon to the DBZ manga, and the multipliers used in Z are only rough approximations/guess-timations for GT-era PLs. Reading is your friend.

Considering you evidently haven't been comprehending my posts, I'd actually call you a borderline troll at this point.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd say give Gohan his tail back so he can go SSJ4 as well, and get him back in the training game, and he'd pass them up again. It's possible.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Can Gohan even go to SSJ? He could in GT.

Originally posted by Galan007
Christ, I have repeatedly stated that GT is non-canon to the DBZ manga, and the multipliers used in Z are only rough approximations/guess-timations for GT-era PLs. Reading is your friend.

Considering you evidently haven't been comprehending my posts, I'd actually call you a borderline troll at this point. That you seem capable of grasping the notion that GT is noncanon yet incapable of grasping the notion that you can't use powerscaling between the two because of said fact either indicates a serious case of trolling on your point, or an impressively deficient grasp of logic.

Originally posted by Galan007
As I stated, all of the other multipliers referenced are just guess-timations that are based on what was formerly regarded as canon in Z. Like I also mentioned, said multipliers are likely drastic underestimations anyway. /shrug Originally posted by Galan007
Reading is your friend. Originally posted by Galan007
I'd actually call you a borderline troll at this point.

Originally posted by NemeBro
What GT has to say about Majin Buu means exactly dick.

^

As can be seen here, I don't give a **** about your quaint multipliers nor your "guess-timations", the very premise you are supporting is wrong.

Originally posted by NemeBro
^

As can be seen here, I don't give a **** about your quaint multipliers nor your "guess-timations", the very premise you are supporting is wrong.

Neme, your being intentionally dense...

Seriously, we never said Buu's power level fluctuated since the end of Z,, infact, thats the reason why he is mentioned as a useful yardstick. Goku saying Rildo is as strong as Buu was is a quantative estimation, and it being mentioned does not alter what it was. I have no idea why you think this is so terrible, but it is not up to you, and wether you like it or not, the thread discusses this, so kindly put up or GTFO.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Neme, your being intentionally dense...

Seriously, we never said Buu's power level fluctuated since the end of Z,, infact, thats the reason why he is mentioned as a useful yardstick. Goku saying Rildo is as strong as Buu was is a quantative estimation, and it being mentioned does not alter what it was. I have no idea why you think this is so terrible, but it is not up to you, and wether you like it or not, the thread discusses this, so kindly put up or GTFO.

The childish tantrum/rant is getting old.

Gohan wins

Originally posted by juggerman
Gohan wins

You lose.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You lose.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Neme, your being intentionally dense...

Seriously, we never said Buu's power level fluctuated since the end of Z,, infact, thats the reason why he is mentioned as a useful yardstick. Goku saying Rildo is as strong as Buu was is a quantative estimation, and it being mentioned does not alter what it was. I have no idea why you think this is so terrible, but it is not up to you, and wether you like it or not, the thread discusses this, so kindly put up or GTFO.

When did I claim that you said Buu's power level fluctuated since the end of Z?

GT, the anime, is not canon to Z, the manga. Therefore, powerscaling or comparing one character's (In this case Rildo's) power to a character in Z's (Buu's) means absolutely nothing in a versus thread setting.

If Rildo has the feats and shit to suggest he is as powerful as Buu (Can't recall if he does, but I do know SSJ4 Goku has the feats to suggest he is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku from Z), fine, but Goku's, as he appeared in GT, claim concerning Rildo's comparative power to Buu means nothing in of itself.

If the thread is using Super Saiyan 4 Goku then it is acknowledging GT as canon(it's not but there ya go). No it's not canon to the manga, just the anime(where Buu is more impressive anyway) and even then only because of the thread.

So congrats NemeBro you're arguing over something completely irrelevant. If I didn't know you better I'd think you'd like to argue over pointless things because you have nothing better to do. uhuh

Neither Galan nor DSZ made this thread.

Their "opinions" concerning powerscaling from Z to GT are irrelevant for this thread, and, honestly, I can't imagine why this thread would be considered viable if they were acknowledging GT as canon to Z.

I am arguing because I am right, and they are wrong.

Originally posted by NemeBro
When did I claim that you said Buu's power level fluctuated since the end of Z?

Then why the hell are you crying about it?

Originally posted by NemeBro
GT, the anime, is not canon to Z, the manga. Therefore, powerscaling or comparing one character's (In this case Rildo's) power to a character in Z's (Buu's) means absolutely nothing in a versus thread setting.

You are being retarded...

The fact that the GT anime follows off of the Z anime is more than enough evidence to trounce your pithy little critique. The fact that this thread deals with a GT character vs 2 Z characters completely blows your shit out of the water here.

Originally posted by NemeBro
If Rildo has the feats and shit to suggest he is as powerful as Buu (Can't recall if he does, but I do know SSJ4 Goku has the feats to suggest he is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku from Z), fine, but Goku's, as he appeared in GT, claim concerning Rildo's comparative power to Buu means nothing in of itself.

Thats also bullshit, because not only does goood Buu and Uub both exist in GT, but because GT is a flow-on from Z, Goku has fought BOTH Fat Buu and Kid Buu, (and as Vegito he fough Buuhan too) means that Goku can draw that comparative from personal experience and compare it to what he felt from Rildo at the time he made that statement.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Neither Galan nor DSZ made this thread.

No, but neither did you, so stop pretending you can make the rules.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Their "opinions" concerning powerscaling from Z to GT are irrelevant for this thread, and, honestly, I can't imagine why this thread would be considered viable if they were acknowledging GT as canon to Z.

Z is canon to GT, not vice versa... GT may have mangled many things, but the events immediately flowed into GT following the end of Z. Reguardless of wether or not GT is canon, thats what this thread discusses, so please, go cry your rivers of crocodile tears elsewhere.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I am arguing because I am right, and they are wrong.

You are arguing simply to annoy. You are about as far from right as Phenomenol was when we trounced him reguarding Goku vs Pyron. Ok, maybe not THAT bad, Phenom was really bad, but your becoming an irritant with your insistances here Neme. Knock it off.

i think u all forgot ssj 3 gotenks, he could fight buu tho not seriously, he is up their. gohan in mystic form is also up their. i say they can win. also if you give gohan three months of serious traing he wouldnt need gotenks

Originally posted by Luffygear4
i think u all forgot ssj 3 gotenks, he could fight buu tho not seriously, he is up their. gohan in mystic form is also up their. i say they can win. also if you give gohan three months of serious traing he wouldnt need gotenks

New trailer of the DBZ movie. Looks like Goku can breath in space...Galan was right. This link is from my Cell Phone.

its not letting me post the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtHKMsA4yjM

We see Gotenks, which is a plus. What worries me is that we also see Gohan as an actual Super Saiyan(0:50). That isn't his Mystic form. :/

It was never stated Gohan "couldn't" go Super Saiyan.

Wasn't it stated he was at his full power in that state? If so super saiyan is pointless, which is why he didn't transform when Buu absorbed Gotenks iirc.

Mystic Gohan was able to tap into the full extent of his power while in his base-level Saiyan state. This gave him a huge advantage because he was able to maintain power far beyond that of a SSJ3 without using hardly any ki. That said, transforming into a formal Super Saiyan would be entirely superfluous, and defeats the purpose of his 'Mystic' form all together.

Damn, I hope they don't neuter him again. :/

Originally posted by carver9
It was never stated Gohan "couldn't" go Super Saiyan. If I recall, he can't even transform into Super Saiyan. Old Kaioshin told him to do the Super Saiyan thing but he didn't transform just his power came out.

Originally posted by dvampire
Gohan has always been more gifted than Goku when it came to power, he just lack the motivation to train. After the Cell saga he stop training like Goku to reach a new ssj form. But when he did train, he was always shown to be able reach a new level of power faster than Goku. He should be more power than Goku even at ssj4 level because he has more hidden power than Goku does. Goku has always been shown to have to work a little harder to reach a new level (ssj2). So Gohan's mystic powers should put him above ssj4 Goku, if we ignore the fact that Gohan was able to go ssj in GT. I really don't agree, once the elder kai FULLY unlocked gohan's hidden power and potential that was it, the only reason gohan was keeping up with everybody and even surpassed everyone was because of the hidden power he had that he unlocks when he is angry or upset enough, but once his hidden power was fully unlocked he has nothing to make him progress as fast any more. But buy the Gt series and after years of goku training with uub and after 16 to 17 years of gohan NOT training goku had far surpassed mystic gohan without even having to go super saiyan 2. And as to why he went super saiyan in the gt series my theory is that his mystic gohan form was just a new base level transformation so that reset his ability to transform to super saiyan levels, so by the GT series mystic gohan had ascended to a mystic super saiyan gohan, which would explain how someone who virtually never trains super saiyan form has kept up with the likes of vegeta and goku, but that is just my theory he could have just lost his mystic gohan and super saiyan 2 forms from lack of training.

Let's not discuss DBGT as if made sense shall we?

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By the time GT rolls around, Goku can oneshot Super Boo while in Super Saiyan. Hell there's a chance he can oneshot SUper Boo with Kaioken. SS4 is overkill akin to Freeza vs Raditz.

If we use Goku's base during the Boo saga with a SSJ4 multiplier the fight is a lot closer. But Goku wins without effort regardless.