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It seems to me.. that since the novel describes Dooku as being drained by every one of Anakin's strikes .. and on the contrary Kenobi survives a much longer assault by Anakin in a much worse environment. Surely, fighting near molten lava must drain your stamina to some degree.. So...

Does this mean Kenobi has more force reserves than Dooku..

Does it mean that Dooku was already weakened from having fought Kenobi and Anakin.. and thus didn't have much left

How do you guys explain that vast difference in how they wre able to handle Anakin's assault?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It seems to me.. that since the novel describes Dooku as being drained by every one of Anakin's strikes .. and on the contrary Kenobi survives a much longer assault by Anakin in a much worse environment. Surely, fighting near molten lava must drain your stamina to some degree.. So...

Does this mean Kenobi has more force reserves than Dooku..

Does it mean that Dooku was already weakened from having fought Kenobi and Anakin.. and thus didn't have much left

How do you guys explain that vast difference in how they wre able to handle Anakin's assault?

Horrible writing on Lucas's part.

Force reserves are, it seems, dependent on that character's strength in the Force/raw power/potential/midi-chlorian count/whatever as opposed to skill. To my knowledge, no accolades are ever extended to Obi-Wan in that regard. His impressive abilities are a result of skill over raw power, unlike Anakin.

Comparing Obi-Wan and Dooku in this regard seems difficult. It's suggested in the Complete Visual Dictionary that Dooku was considered the most tragic of the Lost Twenty because of his unusual strength in the Force whereas Obi-Wan was nearly relegated to to the Agricultural Corps.

It seems to me Dooku had an advantage in both skill and raw power over Obi-Wan, and as has been exhaustively, conclusively proven, Obi-Wan fought a much sloppier, emotional, and less dangerous Anakin than did Dooku.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Force reserves are, it seems, dependent on that character's strength in the Force/raw power/potential/midi-chlorian count/whatever as opposed to skill. To my knowledge, no accolades are ever extended to Obi-Wan in that regard. His impressive abilities are a result of skill over raw power, unlike Anakin.

Comparing Obi-Wan and Dooku in this regard seems difficult. It's suggested in the Complete Visual Dictionary that Dooku was considered the most tragic of the Lost Twenty because of his unusual strength in the Force whereas Obi-Wan was nearly relegated to to the Agricultural Corps.

It seems to me Dooku had an advantage in both skill and raw power over Obi-Wan, and as has been exhaustively, conclusively proven, Obi-Wan fought a much sloppier, emotional, and less dangerous Anakin than did Dooku.

Wow - great points.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Force reserves are, it seems, dependent on that character's strength in the Force/raw power/potential/midi-chlorian count/whatever as opposed to skill. To my knowledge, no accolades are ever extended to Obi-Wan in that regard. His impressive abilities are a result of skill over raw power, unlike Anakin.

Comparing Obi-Wan and Dooku in this regard seems difficult. It's suggested in the Complete Visual Dictionary that Dooku was considered the most tragic of the Lost Twenty because of his unusual strength in the Force whereas Obi-Wan was nearly relegated to to the Agricultural Corps.

It seems to me Dooku had an advantage in both skill and raw power over Obi-Wan, and as has been exhaustively, conclusively proven, Obi-Wan fought a much sloppier, emotional, and less dangerous Anakin than did Dooku.

being an emotional wreck doesn't really hold much water though.. Kenobi was also emotional about having to kill his apprentice.. which was like a son to him. Him being sloppy as doesn't change much. Why wouldn't Anakin's strikes be just as powerful as the one Dooku was having to take? It seems they would be.. Anakin was just as enraged IF NOT MORE SO and his style was one of power and strength. So then, how could Kenobi take many many more blows than Dooku did and there wasn't near the mention of it taxing him as much? So what gives here... Seems to be that Kenobi's force reserves are a bit underrated around these parts.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
being an emotional wreck doesn't really hold much water though..

But it really does. Lucien and others have tried to explain this truth to you exhaustively and I'm not willing to extend much effort in reiteration.

Stover's text, as a supplement to the film and script, indicates that Anakin was able exhaust Dooku by a controlled application of his Force reserves. A control that was lacking when Anakin fought Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan, in comparison, maintained a high degree of Jedi poise and calm throughout the battle that enabled him to win.

You might not like it, it might be bad writing (and it is, Stover had the unfortunate burden of trying to explain how Obi-Wan lasted longer than Dooku against Anakin when Lucas, who doesn't give a shit about that sort of consistency, wrote it in the screenplay), but it's there and it's canon.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But it really does. Lucien and others have tried to explain this truth to you exhaustively and I'm not willing to extend much effort in reiteration.

Stover's text, as a supplement to the film and script, indicates that Anakin was able exhaust Dooku by a controlled application of his Force reserves. A control that was lacking when Anakin fought Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan, in comparison, maintained a high degree of Jedi poise and calm throughout the battle that enabled him to win.

You might not like it, it might be bad writing (and it is, Stover had the unfortunate burden of trying to explain how Obi-Wan lasted longer than Dooku against Anakin when Lucas, who doesn't give a shit about that sort of consistency, wrote it in the screenplay), but it's there and it's canon.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But it really does. Lucien and others have tried to explain this truth to you exhaustively and I'm not willing to extend much effort in reiteration.

Stover's text, as a supplement to the film and script, indicates that Anakin was able exhaust Dooku by a controlled application of his Force reserves. A control that was lacking when Anakin fought Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan, in comparison, maintained a high degree of Jedi poise and calm throughout the battle that enabled him to win.

You might not like it, it might be bad writing (and it is, Stover had the unfortunate burden of trying to explain how Obi-Wan lasted longer than Dooku against Anakin when Lucas, who doesn't give a shit about that sort of consistency, wrote it in the screenplay),

but it's there and it's canon.

Do you have a link to what Stover said on this matter please?

Problem is... The reason why Anakin was so powerful against Dooku was him giving into the darkside a little more and thus making his blows more powerful. When he fought Kenobi he had given in even more. Let's say that Anakin wasn't as poised and was sloppy.. Okay.. Yet that doesnt' explain away Kenobi taking much more blows than Dooku did.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Do you have a link to what Stover said on this matter please?

Problem is... The reason why Anakin was so powerful against Dooku was him giving into the darkside a little more and thus making his blows more powerful. When he fought Kenobi he had given in even more. Let's say that Anakin wasn't as poised and was sloppy.. Okay.. Yet that doesnt' explain away Kenobi taking much more blows than Dooku did.

I didn't read the novelization but I'm willing to bet you your life savings it was never said that Anakin tapped into the dark side in order to beat Dooku. Maybe to behead him but that's a weak ass argument.

And if you know about the person you're trying oh so hard to defend you'd know that his ability to block his blows has to do with familiarity and his mastery of Soresu more than "epic force reserves."

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi


Does this mean Kenobi has more force reserves than Dooku..



Unlikely he can revitalize himself as well as Dooku can. Though being much younger he may have better stamina and last longer before he requires a "recharge."

Although it should be noted the ROTS Script noted BOTH Obi-Wan and Dooku as getting tired in the Dooku vs Anakin & Obi-Wan. Whilst Anakin was the Only One Not Tiring and actually getting more powerful.

Also Defending is Kenobi's most developed skill. So we'd expect his Saber defenses would be superior even to Count Dooku's.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
whereas Obi-Wan was nearly relegated to to the Agricultural Corps.



Do you have a quote for that?

It seems unlikely seeing as he parried 2 powerhouses (Maul and Opress) together.

So he obviously has considerable strength/power.

We've been over that battle already; I have no desire to crush you utterly again, foo'.

It was featured in the Jedi Apprentice series, I recall, by Jude Watson.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We've been over that battle already; I have no desire to crush you utterly again, foo'.

It was featured in the Jedi Apprentice series, I recall, by Jude Watson.

I've heard someone else mention something like that, but I've never had a quote or exact reference.

And we've never discussed this! That argument we were comparing Fisto and Kenobi.

My point here is for Obi-Wan to parry both Maul and Opress simultaneously shows he obviously doesn't lack power.

There's also Old Ben pretty much stalemating Vader. I doubt anyone with weak or average power could do that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Do you have a quote for that?

It seems unlikely seeing as he parried 2 powerhouses (Maul and Opress) together.

So he obviously has considerable strength/power.

It happens in the very first book of the series - it's also how he winds up becoming Qui-gwon's Apprentice.


Originally posted by The_Tempest

It was featured in the Jedi Apprentice series, I recall, by Jude Watson.

Awesome book series.

Originally posted by Rookwood
It happens in the very first book of the series - it's also how he winds up becoming Qui-gwon's Apprentice.



I'm lost. What happens?

Again though, its seems to me that Kenobi's force reserves are vastly underrated by some on here. Dooku was overwhelmed rather quickly and every strike by anakin was draining him. Kenobi survived Anakin's rage for a much greater time and wasn't experiencing near the same effects. Regardless of Kenobi is better at defense.. blocking is blocking.. just cause he's better at it.. doesn't mean anakin's strike aren't hiting him with the same force.

Kenobi took awhile to be selected, but I don't know if it was potential or attitude. He definitely showed to have a respectable amount of force power all in all.

Originally posted by Q99
Kenobi took awhile to be selected, but I don't know if it was potential or attitude.

Must have been attitude. That makes a lot more sense. Remember Ben's line to Yoda in ESB "So was I if you remember.."

Originally posted by Q99
He definitely showed to have a respectable amount of force power all in all.



Yep it's pretty damn unlikely anyone without considerable power could match 2 power houses like Maul & Opress together, defeat Sith Anakin and pretty much stalemate OT Vader.

Also let's consider who did pick him up in the end: Qui-Gonn, known somewhat-renegade who occasionally clashed with the counsel. The kind of guy who'd pick up a difficult-but-talented student.

No one is a Force God when they first begin their training (Anakin certainly wasn't). So maybe Obi-Wan was weak in the beginning. Or even below average, but that doesn't matter. He was obviously deemed powerful enough and wise enough to make the Jedi Council. Still think Dooku is more of a prodegy than Obi-Wan. That is why, like other people have said, it was such a tragedy that Dooku fell. He was also extremely powerful. Only Anakin was deemed to habe more potential (obviously Yoda is seen as more powerful, but how many centuries did it take for Yoda to get that powerful). So between the two, I would say that Dooku has higher force reserves, just based on seeing the feats he has pulled off without getting tired.

I would say Dooku had the greater output but by ROTS Kenobi had the greater reserves. Dooku could overwhelm him in the short term but his age had decreased his stamina so the longer they were fighting the more Kenobi would start to dominate. Dooku probably needs to use the force too keep up his physical mobility and strength, so any attacks he uses on top of this will drain him even faster.

Dooku in his prime would have outclassed Obi Wan in both though.

Kenobi could very much have had greater Force potential than Dooku, but still hadn't unlocked all of it by ROTS. He was, after all, several decades younger than Dooku, and was still getting better.

No, I don't buy it. Yoda said that Dooku was the strongest student he ever trained. Kenobi can't touch that bling.

Originally posted by DecayisAwesome
I would say Dooku had the greater output but by ROTS Kenobi had the greater reserves. Dooku could overwhelm him in the short term but his age had decreased his stamina so the longer they were fighting the more Kenobi would start to dominate. Dooku probably needs to use the force too keep up his physical mobility and strength, so any attacks he uses on top of this will drain him even faster.

Dooku in his prime would have outclassed Obi Wan in both though. I agree. Dooku has done so much as an old man, eg defeating Kenobi, Anakin and holding off Yoda all in one sitting, so i'd wonder how good he'd be in his prime.

When did Yoda ever personally teach Obi-Wan?

When Obi-Wan explicitly says he did in ESB?

As I recall, this is because as a prospect he clobbered one of his classmates in an exhibition for the Masters. Qui-Gon, specifically, disapproved of his aggression and passed.

Originally posted by Eminence
As I recall, this is because as a prospect he clobbered one of his classmates in an exhibition for the Masters. Qui-Gon, specifically, disapproved of his aggression and passed.

Are you sure?

Originally posted by Nephthys
When Obi-Wan explicitly says he did in ESB? Which could very well (and probably is) be referring to the mass training Yoda gives to students, which we saw in in AotC, not personal master-padawan training.

Neph loses again.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Which could very well (and probably is) be referring to the mass training Yoda gives to students, which we saw in in AotC, not personal master-padawan training.

Another flimsy continuity gaffe between the prequels and originals. You're right, but it seems pretty apparent to me that OT!Obi-Wan meant that he was Yoda's "padawan."

Turns out this was the case for Dooku as well.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Neph loses again.

Give him time. The child shall learn.

mmm.


Continuity gaffe indeed. It's too bad Lucas never introduced this plot point in the prequels. The Paragon of Jedi Ideals Obi-Wan that we got is cool, but seeing a ****ed up Obi-Wan would have been interesting as well.

TPM could have had angry Obi-Wan at the start, and by its end he can be Paragon Obi-Wan in time to mentor Anakin.

One of Stoklassa's finer points is that the attributes associated with Obi-Wan by Obi-Wan in the original trilogy are mistakenly conferred to Qui-Gon for the prequels. Don't get me wrong, it introduced a semi-cool sequential chain: Yoda, Dooku, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Anakin.

But then the EU introduced Thame fvcking Cerulian and the rest is history.

Who?

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Which could very well (and probably is) be referring to the mass training Yoda gives to students, which we saw in in AotC, not personal master-padawan training.

Neph loses again.

Which would still make Obi-Wan Yodas student. And Yoda forcefully says that Dooku is his greatest student.

Dooku's Master was a dude named Thame Cerulian.

Nice to see the SW tradition of really good names is standing strong.

Whats wrong with that guy?

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
When did Yoda ever personally teach Obi-Wan?

The Jedi Apprentice Series

Obi-wan was a member of the Bear Clan, I believe.

A group of younglings, instructed by Master Yoda.



I thought everyone already knew this? surprised.Gif



Yoda was Obi-wan's instructor (as he was with many Younglings) before Obi-wan was eventually paired up with Qui Gon.

Why do I know these things, and no one else does? x3

Surprises me, sometimes..