X-men Movie series vs Twilight Movie Series

Placidity

Jean Grey as in Phoenix? If so, she wins.

Assuming not, X-men are generally too slow.

Professor X(first class version)

- Assuming Bella's shield is effective, he won't be any use.

Magneto(first class version)

- Limited effectiveness, will die quickly. Could stay in the air, then he could possibly contribute.

Storm

- If she stays in the air, could do a little damage. Don't want to hear about cyclones, since she would kill friendlies.

Wolverine

- Slice and Dice a few, but gets KO'ed or incapacitated by venom.

Cyclops

- Could take out a few before dying.

Havok

- Same as Cyke.

Jean Grey(Last Stand Version)

- Dark Phoenix rapes. Normal Jean too slow + Bella's shield.

Emma Frost(First Class)

- Useless - Bella's shield and will get ripped apart easily.

Gambit(orgins)

- Too slow. Although could do some damage with constant AOE ground strikes to keep them at bay.

NightCrawler

- Kung fu won't do anything. Using his father's technique, he'll be useful.

Azazel

- A real threat. Could at least take out all the wolves.

Mystique

- Useless.

Sesbastion Shaw

- Major weapon. Hard to take down, physically invulnerable, and AOE energy attacks.

Riptide

- Possibly useful, but cannot target enemies only and extremely vulnerable.

Juggernaut

- Slow, but good distraction and could do some damage, especially against the wolves.

Shawdowcat

- Major threat, however may be taken down by Jane or Alec.

Beast(last stand)

- Useless.

Iceman

- Freeze the ground, make it slippery? Very vulnerable.

Overall, I would say Twilight wins, they are too fast, and too many. At most only half of the X-men are serious threats, and even then most are vulnerable. I'd say around 10 of them are useful. Compare that to the Twilight team, there are at least 60 of them, and that is a rough, very conservative estimate. Even without special abilities, they would win on physical stats and numbers alone.

the ninjak

Didn't Bella's ability only work on Twivamps? Otherwise all the Werewolves wouldn't have been able to transform considering they were in her area of influence. stick out tongue

Nibedicus

Magneto could fly up to max range and use Wolverine as his little flying indestructible adamantium slice and dicer doll. :-p

Would be fun to watch.

Robtard

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Magneto could fly up to max range and use Wolverine as his little flying indestructible adamantium slice and dicer doll. :-p

Would be fun to watch.

Wolverine spinning at 10,000 rpm on his tippy-toes with arms and claws stretched out = THE DEADLIEST DREIDAL KNOWN TO MAN

FrothByte

Originally posted by the ninjak
Didn't Bella's ability only work on Twivamps? Otherwise all the Werewolves wouldn't have been able to transform considering they were in her area of influence. stick out tongue

We will never know.

Regardless her power had a limited focus point once the action got heavy.
She could only focus on individual areas.
The Xmen have knowledge on the vamps abilities and Cyclops or Havok can blast her whilst Xavier mind rapes the lot of them. (did he perform he feat in Origins?)

Game Over Twivamps. Cyclop's and Havok's beams will force Bella to unfocus her power long enough for an easy takedown.

Azazel teleports Sabastian Shaw in the middle of the crowd and he stomps his foot and incinerates them.

Mutants 10/10 If Origins Xavier has the minp rape feat.

Bella made a shield bubble protecting her entire "army" from outside powers. It didn't affect those inside. I'm not sure if the shield can protect from physical attacks like Havok or Cyclop's blast, but I do know it negated every mental attack, meaning Prof. X's and Jean Grey would be useless here unless they can enter that shield bubble.

Sebastian Shaw is the biggest challenge here, but if Twilight team has knowledge of Xmen then Jane takes out Sebastian Shaw first. Then there's Jane's brother, Alec. He has the power to cut off the senses of multiple targets. What's the Xmen gonna do if they can't see, hear, smell, or feel?

BruceSkywalker

lols, Twilight dies

'nuff said end thread

Placidity

I could be wrong, but I remember her shield protecting wolves as well. She can also be selective in her shield, and it only blocks psychic powers.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Regardless her power had a limited focus point once the action got heavy.
She could only focus on individual areas.

I don't think so. I don't remember it very well, but I'm inclined to think she can shield en masse in the film since in the book she was such a threat because Jane and Alec's powers became useless.

Originally posted by the ninjak

The Xmen have knowledge on the vamps abilities and Cyclops or Havok can blast her whilst Xavier mind rapes the lot of them. (did he perform he feat in Origins?)

And the Vampires will have knowledge of the X-men and their capabilities. Cyclops/Havok will take a few simply because there are so much of them, it's likely they will tag some with wide blasts. However, they are very vulnerable.

Your whole argument here is based on Xavier, and there are no Origin feats. I'm assuming you mean First Class, which is the version being used. Nothing too impressive there either, nowhere near as good as Patrick Stewart. He had to use illusions against the soldiers (hiding in truck scene) AND they had to maintain silence otherwise the illusion may have been broken. And he was struggling to telepathically hold Shaw in place, and that is only one person. In my opinion, it would be equally hard if not even harder to control a vampire with telepathic powers.

If it was Patrick Stewart, then there could be a real case made, but even then you'd need a mighty good argument against Bella - which if anything is immune herself, and will target Xavier first if we are going with the prior knowledge scenario. However likewise, X-men would try to protect him.

Originally posted by the ninjak

Game Over Twivamps. Cyclop's and Havok's beams will force Bella to unfocus her power long enough for an easy takedown.

Nope. There are over 60 vampires + wolves. All superspeed, who can finger-flick them. There is no way Cyke/Havok can be that selective in their targets, otherwise someone else will kill them rather quickly. They will die either way, in my opinion.

Originally posted by the ninjak

Azazel teleports Sabastian Shaw in the middle of the crowd and he stomps his foot and incinerates them.

Possible. I don't think that is instant kill/win, but could be effective strategy. Shaw is a real threat no matter what unless they know to remove his helmet.

Nibedicus

Jean Grey Last Stand version is Phoenix.

She solos, end of discussion.

omgchos

Yeah i dont see the vamps tanking a disintegration from her. Especially on the scale at the end of last stand.

FrothByte

Originally posted by omgchos
Yeah i dont see the vamps tanking a disintegration from her. Especially on the scale at the end of last stand.

And if Alec completely disables her senses?

Mindset

Originally posted by FrothByte
And if Alec completely disables her senses? She will just go crazier and disintegrate everything.

It's not like she cared about killing anyone.

omgchos

Yeah shes not gonna take kindly to that.

Nibedicus

I like my idea of the spinning Topverine of death, tho. :-p

Out of curiosity, what's the range of Alec's ability?

FrothByte

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I like my idea of the spinning Topverine of death, tho. :-p

Out of curiosity, what's the range of Alec's ability?

In the books I believe it's mentioned that he's used it on whole battlefields before.

As for the movies, well he was pretty much ready to use it on the Cullen's entire army if Bella didn't stop him, so.... how big was that area?

It's pretty unfair to put phoenix in this match. She was a cosmic entity. Completely whacko though, and will probably kill everyone else here not named Wolverine. I guess that counts as an X-men win, but I'm still not sure if her powers can get through Bella's shield. Phoenix's powers (at least on the movies) seemed to be based off Jean's telekinesis and telepathy (although incredibly amped up). Bella's shield has been shown to completely deaden mind powers.

rox

Originally posted by FrothByte
In the books I believe it's mentioned that he's used it on whole battlefields before.

As for the movies, well he was pretty much ready to use it on the Cullen's entire army if Bella didn't stop him, so.... how big was that area?

It's pretty unfair to put phoenix in this match. She was a cosmic entity. Completely whacko though, and will probably kill everyone else here not named Wolverine. I guess that counts as an X-men win, but I'm still not sure if her powers can get through Bella's shield. Phoenix's powers (at least on the movies) seemed to be based off Jean's telekinesis and telepathy (although incredibly amped up). Bella's shield has been shown to completely deaden mind powers.

but remember jean is so powerful mind constrants didn't work on her and only pissed her off to where she distingrated everything. xavier was at his best when he tried this.

FrothByte

Originally posted by rox
but remember jean is so powerful mind constrants didn't work on her and only pissed her off to where she distingrated everything. xavier was at his best when he tried this.

True, but Bella's power is not the same as Professor X's. Bella is completely immune to any mind powers and mind attacks. She repels mind powers even without her putting effort into it. That's completely different from Prof. X putting a conscious effort into battling another person with mind powers.

We do not know whether it is enough to counter Phoenix, but we do not have enough feats to judge accurately.

Phoenix seemed more powerful, but at the same time Bella didn't seem to even break a sweat repelling mind powers even when she was human.

Casper Whitey

What's to keep Jasper from altering DP's emotions, making her horny as hell, causing her to sneak into a dark corner and pleasure herself?

Robtard

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
What's to keep Jasper from altering DP's emotions, making her horny as hell, causing her to sneak into a dark corner and pleasure herself?

Maybe the fact that she's so powerful she not only resisted Xavier's mind, she then surpassed it and turned him into ash. Maybe that.

Casper Whitey

Originally posted by Robtard
Maybe the fact that she's so powerful she not only resisted Xavier's mind she then surpassed it and turned him into ash. Maybe that. I had a visual and you ruined it. Ass.

Robtard

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
I had a visual and you ruined it. Ass.

She can still go pleasure herself after she's turned everyone into ash.

Casper Whitey

Originally posted by Robtard
She can still go pleasure herself after she's turned everyone into ash. Now you're talkin'.

Mindset

rox

Originally posted by Robtard
Maybe the fact that she's so powerful she not only resisted Xavier's mind, she then surpassed it and turned him into ash. Maybe that.

and jean realized her full potential when she wa a young girl.

Casper Whitey

Juggernaut slams into a group of Twivamps at full speed. Result?

FrothByte

Originally posted by Mindset
When did Bella affect telekinesis?

Admittedly, never. Bella has been able to counter 4 different mind powers of 4 different vamps though, without even thinking about it.

Whether it will block Dark Phoenix's telekinesis, I'm undecided. Like I said before, putting Dark Phoenix in this match was a bit too unfair. OP should have made it just plain Jean Grey.

Best bet for the vamps is for Alec and Jane to hit Phoenix and Shaw immediately as soon as the fight starts and incapacitate them.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by FrothByte
Best bet for the vamps is for Alec and Jane to hit Phoenix and Shaw immediately as soon as the fight starts and incapacitate them.

You would have to assume that the Twivamps attack (and get to) the optimal targets first before the (far more combat, tactical and teamwork trained, longer ranged and possesing of far more versatile sets of abilities) X-Men/Mutants manage to deploy their abilities in defense sufficiently to buy Phoenix enough time to blink the Twifags to ash....

Not likely, IMO

stick out tongue

rox

Actually the vamps would need to stop jean erik and ororo from takinh flight otherwise there toast

FrothByte

Originally posted by Nibedicus
You would have to assume that the Twivamps attack (and get to) the optimal targets first before the (far more combat, tactical and teamwork trained, longer ranged and possesing of far more versatile sets of abilities) X-Men/Mutants manage to deploy their abilities in defense sufficiently to buy Phoenix enough time to blink the Twifags to ash....

Not likely, IMO

stick out tongue

What makes you think that the Xmen have more combat and tactical experience? Most of these vamps are hundreds of years old. And whereas the Xmen might have more diverse powers, ALL the vamps have super strength, super speed, and super durability... plus all their special powers. Even if the mutants are able to get inside Bella's shield, they'd still have to deal with the speed and strength of the vamps, not to mention their other powers. Storm can start hurling lightning and such, it would still be a challenge to actually hit the vamps.

As for who has the faster attacks, Jane's power is instantaneous. Speed of thought and all that. Of course, Prof. X's and Jean Grey's powers are instantaneous as well. So it all boils down to whether Bella's shield can block Phoenix. Prof X I'm pretty sure won't work, since Bella's shield has been proven against telepathy before.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by FrothByte
What makes you think that the Xmen have more combat and tactical experience? Most of these vamps are hundreds of years old. And whereas the Xmen might have more diverse powers, ALL the vamps have super strength, super speed, and super durability... plus all their special powers. Even if the mutants are able to get inside Bella's shield, they'd still have to deal with the speed and strength of the vamps, not to mention their other powers. Storm can start hurling lightning and such, it would still be a challenge to actually hit the vamps.

As for who has the faster attacks, Jane's power is instantaneous. Speed of thought and all that. Of course, Prof. X's and Jean Grey's powers are instantaneous as well. So it all boils down to whether Bella's shield can block Phoenix. Prof X I'm pretty sure won't work, since Bella's shield has been proven against telepathy before.

Age does not translate to tactical skill, else Thor would be the most tactcially skilled character in these forums. Super strength and durability don't matter if you're reduced to ash before you can bring it to bear. And super speed won't help them other than maybe getting them close (w/c won't be enough as they won't have enough time). Phoenix's disintegration attack can't be dodged. The X-Men don't have to get to Bella's shield, they just have to fight defensively long enough to buy Phoenix enough time to blink.

And no, Bella has never stopped TK (a physical effect triggered by a mental ability) before so you can't manufacture powers that was never shown in the movies.

FrothByte

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Age does not translate to tactical skill, else Thor would be the most tactcially skilled character in these forums. Super strength and durability don't matter if you're reduced to ash before you can bring it to bear. And super speed won't help them other than maybe getting them close (w/c won't be enough as they won't have enough time). Phoenix's disintegration attack can't be dodged. The X-Men don't have to get to Bella's shield, they just have to fight defensively long enough to buy Phoenix enough time to blink.

And no, Bella has never stopped TK (a physical effect triggered by a mental ability) before so you can't manufacture powers that was never shown in the movies.

Yes agreed, Bella hasn't shown that she can stop TK. Question is, which attack is faster? Phoenix disintegrating the twi-army or Jane crippling Phoenix?

In the end, the X-men's main weapon here is Phoenix. If Phoenix fails, then the odds start favoring the twi-vamps.

I didn't mention the super strenght and speed of the vamps thinking that they can beat Phoenix. I mentioned those in reply to your statement of the Xmen having more diverse powers.

IN the event that Phoenix gets taken down, the rest of the X-men will have trouble taking out the twi-army considering they are all supplied with super speed and super strength.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes agreed, Bella hasn't shown that she can stop TK. Question is, which attack is faster? Phoenix disintegrating the twi-army or Jane crippling Phoenix?

In the end, the X-men's main weapon here is Phoenix. If Phoenix fails, then the odds start favoring the twi-vamps.

I didn't mention the super strenght and speed of the vamps thinking that they can beat Phoenix. I mentioned those in reply to your statement of the Xmen having more diverse powers.

IN the event that Phoenix gets taken down, the rest of the X-men will have trouble taking out the twi-army considering they are all supplied with super speed and super strength.

It is highly arguable that mental attacks would affect Phoenix. Prof X poops over any Twivamp "feat" out there and all his focused assault vs. Phoenix got him was dusted. In fact, I'd go out and say that "feat-to-feat" ain't no way Jane is even affecting Phoenix with her powers at all as she has resisted far more powerful mental attacks than what Jane is capable of.

Also, no one has ever been able to get close to Phoenix without her wanting them to (other than maybe PIS-y Wolverine). She froze syringe-bullets in mid air while her back was turned for Pete's sake. No one from is taking Phoenix down. Physically or mentally.

FrothByte

Originally posted by Nibedicus
It is highly arguable that mental attacks would affect Phoenix. Prof X poops over any Twivamp "feat" out there and all his focused assault vs. Phoenix got him was dusted. In fact, I'd go out and say that "feat-to-feat" ain't no way Jane is even affecting Phoenix with her powers at all as she has resisted far more powerful mental attacks than what Jane is capable of.

Also, no one has ever been able to get close to Phoenix without her wanting them to (other than maybe PIS-y Wolverine). She froze syringe-bullets in mid air while her back was turned for Pete's sake. No one from is taking Phoenix down. Physically or mentally.

Prof. X doesn't exactly "poop" on twivamp feats. Prof. X has consistently struggled when confronted with strong willed minds. Jane has never had even the slightest difficulty initiating pain, regardless of will power and other powers of her target. The only exception is Bella, but Jane didn't struggle here either. Her power just didn't work.

Jane's power will either work instantaneously on Phoenix or it won't. There's no "Phoenix is so strong she will fight through Jane's psychic pain". At least, that's how Jane has been depicted in both the books and the movies.

Claiming that Phoenix is immune to Jane's pain attacks is about as baseless as me claiming that Bella's shield can withstand a TK attack.

omgchos

FrothByte

Originally posted by omgchos
But if phoenix is in pain i guarantee that turns into lashing out of the disintegration variety. Even if shes the only one standing after its a victory.

True. Her and Wolverine.

Mindset

Yea, if DP actually cared about her team it would be different, but...lol

Nibedicus

Originally posted by FrothByte
Prof. X doesn't exactly "poop" on twivamp feats. Prof. X has consistently struggled when confronted with strong willed minds. Jane has never had even the slightest difficulty initiating pain, regardless of will power and other powers of her target. The only exception is Bella, but Jane didn't struggle here either. Her power just didn't work.

Jane's power will either work instantaneously on Phoenix or it won't. There's no "Phoenix is so strong she will fight through Jane's psychic pain". At least, that's how Jane has been depicted in both the books and the movies.

Claiming that Phoenix is immune to Jane's pain attacks is about as baseless as me claiming that Bella's shield can withstand a TK attack.

Seriously? What has Twivamps done that puts them in any close neighboorhood to controlling groups of ppl at once, freezing entire masses of people while maintaining a conversation? The guy nearly ended the mutant/human race while just slightly concentrating on Cerebro.

Phoenix has "showings" of being able to resist mental attacks of Prof X's caliber. Jane can't even penetrate Bella's shield while she was mortal IIRC. Proof thay Phoenix can defend against mental assaults? Check. Proof that Jane's ability can be stopped by mental defenses? Check. Proof that Bella can stop TK? Nadda.

And who (as you claim) exactly has Prof X "consistently" struggled against in the movie (not First Class Prof X, X-Men:Last Stand Prof X who Phoenix dusted)?

No, "feat-to-feat" Last Stand Prof X poops on every single Twivamp "feat" out there and all his efforts got him dusted by Phoenix. I will repeat, unless you present a "feat" even remotely close to what Prof X can do, Phoenix laughs off Jane's best effort and dusts her.

That is assuming she even gets close enough to use her powers.

FrothByte

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Seriously? What has Twivamps done that puts them in any close neighboorhood to controlling groups of ppl at once, freezing entire masses of people while maintaining a conversation? The guy nearly ended the mutant/human race while just slightly concentrating on Cerebro.

Phoenix has "showings" of being able to resist mental attacks of Prof X's caliber. Jane can't even penetrate Bella's shield while she was mortal IIRC. Proof thay Phoenix can defend against mental assaults? Check. Proof that Jane's ability can be stopped by mental defenses? Check. Proof that Bella can stop TK? Nadda.

And who (as you claim) exactly has Prof X "consistently" struggled against in the movie (not First Class Prof X, X-Men:Last Stand Prof X who Phoenix dusted)?

No, "feat-to-feat" Last Stand Prof X poops on every single Twivamp "feat" out there and all his efforts got him dusted by Phoenix. I will repeat, unless you present a "feat" even remotely close to what Prof X can do, Phoenix laughs off Jane's best effort and dusts her.

That is assuming she even gets close enough to use her powers.

Just re-watched Last Stand. Prof X. never launched a mental assault on Jean. He tried to talk to her. That's not the same as Jane launching a mental attack on DP. Also, Jean never "brushed off" Prof. X. They spent long minutes locked in a stare down as Jean tried to keep Prof. X out of her head. She's not as strong as you make her seem.

As for Prof. X freezing people in a room, sure none of the twivamps can do that, simply because none of them have that particular power. Much the same way that Prof. X doesn't have the power to see the future. The only telepath in the twivamp side is Edward and his powers are limited to reading minds. No use trying to compare different powers.

On that note, when has prof. X shown the capability to generate instantaneous pain by making his target imagine it? And Charles needed to "concentrate hard" while using cerebro to kill all humans.

So no, DP hasn't shown any defense against a mental assault. She showed defense against a mental conversation.

No twivamp has shown the power to freeze a group of people in their steps, but neither has Prof. X shown the ability to create imagined pain nor the ability to rob people of their senses.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by FrothByte
Just re-watched Last Stand. Prof X. never launched a mental assault on Jean. He tried to talk to her. That's not the same as Jane launching a mental attack on DP. Also, Jean never "brushed off" Prof. X. They spent long minutes locked in a stare down as Jean tried to keep Prof. X out of her head. She's not as strong as you make her seem.

Are you seriously saying that Prof X wasn't using his powers on Phoenix? Did I read that right???

The most powerful telepath in the world who can manipulate things at a molecular level just by TK isn't as strong as we make her seem?

................

You might wanna watch Last Stand again.....

Originally posted by FrothByte
As for Prof. X freezing people in a room, sure none of the twivamps can do that, simply because none of them have that particular power. Much the same way that Prof. X doesn't have the power to see the future. The only telepath in the twivamp side is Edward and his powers are limited to reading minds. No use trying to compare different powers.

They don't have different powers, it's both telepathy. Edward just has a very basic version of it.

Originally posted by FrothByte
On that note, when has prof. X shown the capability to generate instantaneous pain by making his target imagine it? And Charles needed to "concentrate hard" while using cerebro to kill all humans.

Instantaneous pain? You mean like at the end of Mutants United when he started focusing on all humans/mutants? Bear in mind Cerebro only increases his range and helps him find targets better.

Originally posted by FrothByte
So no, DP hasn't shown any defense against a mental assault. She showed defense against a mental conversation.

/facepalm

Dude. Not even worth replying to this comment....

Originally posted by FrothByte
No twivamp has shown the power to freeze a group of people in their steps, but neither has Prof. X shown the ability to create imagined pain nor the ability to rob people of their senses.

Wrong. Try again.

Mindset

Lmao at this attempt to discredit mutants.

Prof X can completely control someone with tp...that alone puts him over Twilight tp.

Casper Whitey

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Juggernaut slams into a group of Twivamps at full speed. Result?

Nibedicus

Phoenix solos. Shaw soloes.

If Bella dies, Proff X solos.

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Phoenix solos. Shaw soloes.

If Bella dies, Proff X solos.

Shaw can't solo

BruceSkywalker

thread is still going SMDH

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Shaw can't solo

Why not?

juggerman

Because one of the vamps could easily pick him up and toss him to Canada. Or just hold him while he kicks and screams like a child. Without some kind of energy to absorb he's useless

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Because one of the vamps could easily pick him up and toss him to Canada. Or just hold him while he kicks and screams like a child. Without some kind of energy to absorb he's useless

They don't know how his powers work. It wasn't common knowledge even in the movies. And it's very hard to figure out til he tells you about it. They're gonna hit him a few times, by then, it'll be too late.

With Cyclops there, he'll prolly just have Clops blast im for a few seconds anyway.

juggerman

Edward can read minds remember? He'll know everyone's power and how they work.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Edward can read minds remember? He'll know everyone's power and how they work.

He wears a helmet as standard gear remember? Jane, Alec and Edward will be useless against him.

Check and mate.

the ninjak

Shaw proved he could walk through steel girders, he eased his hands through them.

What makes you think the Twivamps can counter his kinetic control whilst he stomps his foot and creates a controlled kinetic fire eruption around his and his allies bodies?

Plus the helmet he wears allows him telepathic immunity.

Mindset

Originally posted by juggerman
Edward can read minds remember? He'll know everyone's power and how they work. Couldn't he only read surface thoughts. I doubt Shaw is going to be thinking about how his powers work.

AlsoOriginally posted by Nibedicus
He wears a helmet as standard gear remember? Jane, Alec and Edward will be useless against him.

Check and mate.

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
He wears a helmet as standard gear remember? Jane, Alec and Edward will be useless against him.

Check and mate.

Nice one thumb up

juggerman

Originally posted by Mindset
Couldn't he only read surface thoughts. I doubt Shaw is going to be thinking about how his powers work./B]

Yes. But Shaw could be thinking "Hope one of these stupid sparkly bastards punches me in the face. Then i'll absorb that energy and whoop some ass!" Or he could be taking the approach mentioned earlier and think about having his own team pound on him. Either way Ed would catch it

Mindset

This is getting ridiculous.

Edward gets snapped in half by Shaw.

juggerman

I think the Mutants can win just not thru Footloose soloing

Mindset

Maybe not, but your scenarios for Edward finding out about Shaws powers and immediately dispatching him are inane.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Nice one thumb up

But even if he has it (or Magneto does. Or Both) what's stopping the vamps from running over and taking it off in the blink of an eye? Edward can read the other mutants' minds so he'll know what it is and what it does. Now a vamp has protection against X and Frost.

1) The debate was about Shaw soloing. This would mean the othet mutants wouldn't need to be there
2) There are a lot of mutant out there and most all of em don't know what the helmet is for and Edward reads surface thoughts only.
3) Even Magneto couldn't remove it without getting close and distracting Shaw first. It seems like Shaw's power works as an aura that protects him and abrorbs energy around him. It's arguable if they'd even manage to grab into it.
4) He'd blow them up before they got close.
5) Edward wouldn't even think of trying to read what the helmet is for unless he's had prior knowledge of it, w/c he doesn't.
6) He could just, y'know, HOLD ONTO IT. With one hand. No twivamp is even in the same continent as strong as he is when he's charged up.
7) There's a 7th reason and possibly an 8th or 9th but I feel like the whole line of argument you presented is silly and feel like we do 't need to go on any further.

So are we in agreement? Shaw soloes?

BruceSkywalker

more dumb shit up in here... Twilight dies, gets obliterated, etc.. etc.. etc..

juggerman

Originally posted by Mindset
Maybe not, but your scenarios for Edward finding out about Shaws powers and immediately dispatching him are inane.

Not really. If you're going into a fight what do you think about? You make a plan right? What you can and can't do. What you're opponent can and can't do. All thses thoughts will be going thru his head and every one of them will go thru Ed's head at the same time.

And (say he has the helmet) in a team fight you tend to think of your partner's advantages and disadvantages. Out of All the people here you think not one of them would think of Shaw's/Magneto's helmet at all? Espeically if they learn of the mental power's on the vamp squad?

Plus once one of them attacks Shaw and he absorbs it they would know they had to get exotic anyway. Shaw's not fast enough to tag any of them or do much against a BFR anyway

Mindset

Didn't read; give it up.

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) The debate was about Shaw soloing. This would mean the othet mutants wouldn't need to be there
2) There are a lot of mutant out there and most all of em don't know what the helmet is for and Edward reads surface thoughts only.
3) Even Magneto couldn't remove it without getting close and distracting Shaw first. It seems like Shaw's power works as an aura that protects him and abrorbs energy around him. It's arguable if they'd even manage to grab into it.
4) He'd blow them up before they got close.
5) Edward wouldn't even think of trying to read what the helmet is for unless he's had prior knowledge of it, w/c he doesn't.
6) He could just, y'know, HOLD ONTO IT. With one hand. No twivamp is even in the same continent as strong as he is when he's charged up.
7) There's a 7th reason and possibly an 8th or 9th but I feel like the whole line of argument you presented is silly and feel like we do 't need to go on any further.

So are we in agreement? Shaw soloes?

1 Ok
2 Ok
3 Magneto was being an idiot. There was no indication anything was stopping mags from doin exactly what he did later from jump
4 Only if he got some power. If it was just 1 against all of them they probably wouldn't just try punching him to death. One might and get destroyed but the rest would be more cautious
5 He doesn't control his mind reading it's always on so once he couldn't read Shaw's mind he's know something was up with the helmet

Agree to disagree i guess

juggerman

Originally posted by Mindset
Didn't read; give it up.

sad

Utrigita

X-men for the win, and not with a whole lot of effort too, the majority of the team (read everyone except Jean) gets teleported to a safe distance by Azreal and settle down to watch the ash cloud.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
1 Ok
2 Ok
3 Magneto was being an idiot. There was no indication anything was stopping mags from doin exactly what he did later from jump
4 Only if he got some power. If it was just 1 against all of them they probably wouldn't just try punching him to death. One might and get destroyed but the rest would be more cautious
5 He doesn't control his mind reading it's always on so once he couldn't read Shaw's mind he's know something was up with the helmet

Agree to disagree i guess

3) There seems to always be a kinetic aura around Shaw the reason Magneto was able to getbthe helmet off was proximity and distraction.
4) Twiwolves would keep hitting him as they're not exactly the smartest ppl in the world. Good enough source of power for Shaw. And no, they won't figure out how his powers work unless he tells em.
5) He's fighting an entire army of ppl who wears silly costumes if anything, he'd think there was something up with Shaw's suit as it's the only thing that stands out against a sea of costumed weirdoes.

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
3) There seems to always be a kinetic aura around Shaw the reason Magneto was able to getbthe helmet off was proximity and distraction.
4) Twiwolves would keep hitting him as they're not exactly the smartest ppl in the world. Good enough source of power for Shaw. And no, they won't figure out how his powers work unless he tells em.
5) He's fighting an entire army of ppl who wears silly costumes if anything, he'd think there was something up with Shaw's suit as it's the only thing that stands out against a sea of costumed weirdoes.

3 I don't recall an "aura". Just how Shaw kept Matrix moving when he was hit. Magneto was blinded by rage (and a heaping amount of PIS) so he didn't go for the helmet til him and Shaw had their chat. He never went for it until then and when he did he got it. No reason to think he couldn't have gotten it from jump had he tried

4 It has been shown that they follow directions pretty well and MUST obey the Packmaster. Both PM's (Jacob and the other guy) have no problem following the lead of the vamps and would hold their guys back if asked to.

5 This was about Shaw soloing remember? That means no one else is there. No army. He would notice Shaw's thoughts were blocked right away.

And if it were an army it wouldn't matter. Edward reads everyone's mind he's around and can expand his range few miles. He noticed right away he couldn't read Bella's mind in a school filled with hundreds of people. He'd take notice

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
3 I don't recall an "aura". Just how Shaw kept Matrix moving when he was hit. Magneto was blinded by rage (and a heaping amount of PIS) so he didn't go for the helmet til him and Shaw had their chat. He never went for it until then and when he did he got it. No reason to think he couldn't have gotten it from jump had he tried

4 It has been shown that they follow directions pretty well and MUST obey the Packmaster. Both PM's (Jacob and the other guy) have no problem following the lead of the vamps and would hold their guys back if asked to.

5 This was about Shaw soloing remember? That means no one else is there. No army. He would notice Shaw's thoughts were blocked right away.

And if it were an army it wouldn't matter. Edward reads everyone's mind he's around and can expand his range few miles. He noticed right away he couldn't read Bella's mind in a school filled with hundreds of people. He'd take notice

3. It wasn't him moving. Looks more like the aura responding to kinetic energy and distorting the air/light around him thus distorting how he looks rather than him doing the macarena at superspeed..

4. From the pack leader who is also not gonna stand there, open a comic and realoze "hey! It's kinetic energy absorption!!!!". He would no doubt simply attack in rapid succession, charging and hitting and calling out attack formations at most. If the US military/FBI or whoever was guarding the installatuon couldn't figure it out, neither are the Twifags. Not until it's way too late, anyway.

SERIOUSLY, (no offense) this whole argument that they'd figure out how his powers work is asinine. Half the people watching the movie wouldn't have figured out how Shaws powers worked without him explaining it and I bet there were even some who didn't figure out how it worked even AFTER the movie ended. All he shows are energy blasts and extreme durability. The only thing that would happen is that they'd hit him more often and try and dodge his attacks.

5. When Bella blocked Edward's abilitiies, not once in the movies did he assume it was her headband blocking his powers.

/facepalm

And if it was an group battle, isn't it silly to assume that Edward would just HAPPEN to come by a stray thought of someone describing how Shaw's powers/helmet works? Not to mention that Emma and Prof X CAN detect telepaths and CAN block telepaths using their powers (see First Class).

Seriously, man, stop. This is painful to watch....

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
3. It wasn't him moving. Looks more like the aura responding to kinetic energy and distorting the air/light around him thus distorting how he looks rather than him doing the macarena at superspeed..

4. From the pack leader who is also not gonna stand there, open a comic and realoze "hey! It's kinetic energy absorption!!!!". He would no doubt simply attack in rapid succession, charging and hitting and calling out attack formations at most. If the US military/FBI or whoever was guarding the installatuon couldn't figure it out, neither are the Twifags. Not until it's way too late, anyway.

SERIOUSLY, (no offense) this whole argument that they'd figure out how his powers work is asinine. Half the people watching the movie wouldn't have figured out how Shaws powers worked without him explaining it and I bet there were even some who didn't figure out how it worked even AFTER the movie ended. All he shows are energy blasts and extreme durability. The only thing that would happen is that they'd hit him more often and try and dodge his attacks.

5. When Bella blocked Edward's abilitiies, not once in the movies did he assume it was her headband blocking his powers.

/facepalm

And if it was an group battle, isn't it silly to assume that Edward would just HAPPEN to come by a stray thought of someone describing how Shaw's powers/helmet works? Not to mention that Emma and Prof X CAN detect telepaths and CAN block telepaths using their powers (see First Class).

Seriously, man, stop. This is painful to watch....

3 When he absorbs energy his body appears to be moving at extreme speeds. Once he's absorbed it that stops. No "aura" appears. There's nothing protecting the helmet from being taken off

4 Have you even seen or read Twilight? These guys don't just attack mindlessly. They find themselves against a normal looking guy with a helmet and you think that everybody would just run over and trying to hit him to death? Anytime they were in a fight they worked together and followed orders very well. They also took time to asses the situation before barreling in as you seem to believe they would.

If they believed him to be simply a human then why would it be needed to jump him? Or even use more than a fraction of their strength in just one hit? Once that didn't work and (big maybe here) Shaw killed whoever attacked him the rest would be uber careful. And besides it took Shaw absorbing a F*** LOAD of energy to blow everybody up like that. A single hit would not give him that much power.

Plus Alice CAN TELL THE FUTURE!!!!!!!!!!! She would see that attacking him like crazed lunitics would be STUPID!!!!!!!!!

5 Now that was just stupid. Bella doesn't wear headbands. big grin

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
3 When he absorbs energy his body appears to be moving at extreme speeds. Once he's absorbed it that stops. No "aura" appears. There's nothing protecting the helmet from being taken off

4 Have you even seen or read Twilight? These guys don't just attack mindlessly. They find themselves against a normal looking guy with a helmet and you think that everybody would just run over and trying to hit him to death? Anytime they were in a fight they worked together and followed orders very well. They also took time to asses the situation before barreling in as you seem to believe they would.

If they believed him to be simply a human then why would it be needed to jump him? Or even use more than a fraction of their strength in just one hit? Once that didn't work and (big maybe here) Shaw killed whoever attacked him the rest would be uber careful. And besides it took Shaw absorbing a F*** LOAD of energy to blow everybody up like that. A single hit would not give him that much power.

Plus Alice CAN TELL THE FUTURE!!!!!!!!!!! She would see that attacking him like crazed lunitics would be STUPID!!!!!!!!!

5 Now that was just stupid. Bella doesn't wear headbands. big grin

But seriously Edward tried to figure out why he couldn't read Bella's mind. So you mean to tell me that if you could read anyone's mind and then this guy with a funky helmet came around and you couldn't read his you would NEVER think the helmet could be the reason? REALLY? And keep in mind that Ed wouldn't be the only one pondering this once he says "Hey i can't read this dude's head."

Shaw. Can. Not. Solo.

EDIT: And again im not arguing that the entire team couldn't take out the vamps and wolves. Just arguing that Shaw can't alone. Which he can't

3) When someone shoots him, blasts him with a grenade and shoots a rocket at him, do you notice any of his clothes get burned/torn/shredded? It is easier to believe that an aura protects him and his clothes rather than his clothes being woven from indesctructible thread.

4) They were coordinated, yes. At running towards their enemies and punching, dodging, biting, clawing. There were times they used their powers against their opponents and were tactical,yes. But nothing suggests that they'd figure out what Shaw's extremely obscure powers are. Nothing, dude. How exactly are they suddenly gonna "asses" how his powers work?

Alice can tell the future, but all that's gonna show her is ppl getting blown up or punched/blown up to death when they attack him. The most it'll tell her to do is "run away!". NOT figure out how his power works.

SHEESH. Come on, man!

5) That black thing on her head is actually called a headband. Look at her pictures.

And yes, when Bella blocked his powers he didn't go: "that headband must be blocking my powers! Maybe she's wearing something in her clothing that is blocking my telepathy somehow!!1!!" He just assumed it was her. And seriously, how difficult is it to assume that a man who deflects yoir strongest blows, dances the macarena at superspeeds and blasts people with bolts of energy would have some other powers once they see him do it?

Without prior insider knowledge (that you have) it is extremely doubtful that Edward would figure out what the helmet is for OTHER than thinking he's wearing a silly looking helmet for the same reason normal ppl do.

And in order for them to win, you're making a TON of assumptions and The only one I'm making is that they'd behave in the same way they did in the movies.

juggerman

Ok try looking at it this way:

Shaw is standing in a field ready to fight The Cullens The Wolves and the Volturi. Right away Edward will realise he can't read guy's mind. Dakota Fanning (forgot her character's name), who always attacks first, would try to cause him pain which wouldn't work. Right away they would put everyone on alert that this guy is different somehow. (Alec might try but eh) Now "insert name here" will want to finish this guy quickly via punch/kick/bite/fart.

Alice would see right away that any attack they try would fail and cause their demise. Now since the future is constantly shifting she will see multible futures but they will have one thing in common. THEY ATTACK FIRST! She'll see that without them outright hitting him he can't/won't do spit. She'll relay this and boom goes the dynamite.

Also the wolves don't harm humans and only kill vampires so they would be the least likely to attack

That's very in character for everybody including Shaw to just sit there waiting to be hit. He might also try to goad them but all in all Alice would see the results and stop them from playing his game

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Ok try looking at it this way:

Shaw is standing in a field ready to fight The Cullens The Wolves and the Volturi. Right away Edward will realise he can't read guy's mind. Dakota Fanning (forgot her character's name), who always attacks first, would try to cause him pain which wouldn't work. Right away they would put everyone on alert that this guy is different somehow. (Alec might try but eh) Now "insert name here" will want to finish this guy quickly via punch/kick/bite/fart.

Alice would see right away that any attack they try would fail and cause their demise. Now since the future is constantly shifting she will see multible futures but they will have one thing in common. THEY ATTACK FIRST! She'll see that without them outright hitting him he can't/won't do spit. She'll relay this and boomi goes the dynamite.

Also the wolves don't harm humans and only kill vampires so they would be the least likely to attack

That's very in character for everybody including Shaw to just sit there waiting to be hit. He might also try to goad them but all in all Alice would see the results and stop them from playing his game

So now you're saying that they'll just stare at each other?

Have you abandoned your "they'll figure out what his powers/helmet is for?" argument? Admit concession on this end and I'll adress your new argument. Otherwise, I refuse to engage in a circular debate until you address the points I made individually.

Also, sux that you used the word "stupid" only to be proven wrong (regarding the headband) yet again, eh? stick out tongue

juggerman

Ok the headband was a joke. Did you miss the " big grin

"?

And im saying they find themselves looking at their opponent. Isn't that how fights usually start right?

I didn't abandon it im just now thinking Alice is a better option to debate from. Whether they figure out his powers and/or helmet or not Alice would still see what would happen. Makes more sense since you seem to believe that these guy would never ever ever ever notice his helmet

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Ok the headband was a joke. Did you miss the " big grin

" online, dude. Don't make incorrect comments (especially if it's somehow related to your argument) w/o taking it back after as sarcasm/jokinh don't translate well in the interwebs.

You need to concede your previous argument before segueing to another argument. I'm unwilling to engage ina circular debate with you returning to your old argument and making me repeat myself once I prove your new argument wrong in another set of arguments.

juggerman

Ok well i figured you'd realise i was kidding.

And i will not concede my point. You seem to be of a mind that it is totally impossible that these ancient highly intelligent beings would ever think to look at the ridiculous helmet as a source blocking their mental powers. And even if they did Shaw would never think of him using his power in a fight even tho they are in a fight and his power is all he can use.

Seems like we are at an impasse so i decided to move on to another angle the vamps have working in their favor. If you do not wish to argue this point then don't. If you do in fact want to yet are being held back due to lack of a concension plz feel free to pretend i conceded so we may continue.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Ok well i figured you'd realise i was kidding.

And i will not concede my point. You seem to be of a mind that it is totally impossible that these ancient highly intelligent beings would ever think to look at the ridiculous helmet as a source blocking their mental powers.

Do you see what the Twivamps wear throughout the whole movie?? These ppl live with ridiculous clothing all the time.

On-screen we've seen Edward's powers get blocked. On screen, we've seen how he reacted to it and what assumptions he made. Most likely reaction is how he actually reacted on screen. You can't suddenly fabricate new reactions for them because you want them to win a battleboard especially because you have prior knowledge of how Shaw's powers/gear work.

This is fiction. Nothing is impossible. But in battleboards we deal with probables (w/c is why we use a 1-10/10 win-lose system) and use ACTUAL onscreen/panel evidence to support them.

Originally posted by juggerman
And even if they did Shaw would never think of him using his power in a fight even tho they are in a fight and his power is all he can use.

What is this supposed to mean? Pls elaborate.

Originally posted by juggerman
Seems like we are at an impasse so i decided to move on to another angle the vamps have working in their favor. If you do not wish to argue this point then don't. If you do in fact want to yet are being held back due to lack of a concension plz feel free to pretend i conceded so we may continue.

No. I made several arguments (numbered for your convenience) that you've yet to refute while I've refuted you time and again. You need to give up the whole "they'll figure shit out" argument so that we can proceed with your new line of thought because I'm not about to re-argue this same point with you again 5 pages from now. This line of logic of yours failed. I know it. And evidently, due to your sudden change of approach, you know it as well.

I'll not "pretend" crap. If you can't defend your old stance then you need to concede it before going into a completely different direction. I'll not debate with someone who's wasted my time for almost 5 pages of back and forths just for him to hide behind a "pretend I conceded" BS repsonse when he's finally gotten cornered with his faled logic.

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Do you see what the Twivamps wear throughout the whole movie?? These ppl live with ridiculous clothing all the time.

On-screen we've seen Edward's powers get blocked. On screen, we've seen how he reacted to it and what assumptions he made. Most likely reaction is how he actually reacted on screen. You can't suddenly fabricate new reactions for them because you want them to win a battleboard especially because you have prior knowledge of how Shaw's powers/gear work.

This is fiction. Nothing is impossible. But in battleboards we deal with probables (w/c is why we use a 1-10/10 win-lose system) and use ACTUAL onscreen/panel evidence to support them.

Have we seen any wearing crazy ass helmets? And we see how Ed reacted to Bella and what he thought but Bella was not wearing a massive HELMET!

It is probable that Edward would look for reasons he could read this guy wearing a very strange helmet. Now Ed has been around for about 100 yeaers and is about as smart as a person could be. He would be able to tell that wasn't a normal (motorcycle, football) helmet. Now he might think it was battle armor but since it's unlikely he has encountered anyone in a suit of armor before it's logical for his thought process to go "Hmm i can't read his mind. Could the helmet somehow be blocking me?" If Bella had been wearing a similar helmet (that didn't block her thoughts) it's natural for his thoughts to have gone there 1st as well only to be proved wrong.

You said something earlier about how "Shaw wouldn't think about exactly how is powers worked" or some such similar. Im saying that of course he would be thinking about it. That's all he has to offer. If you've ever been in a fight try to recall your thought process. You try to think of everything that could possibily happen. Everything you can do. The desired results of every action and reaction. Shaw would indeed think about his powers and how they worked even in the most basic sense and as the thoughts passed thru his head they would pass thru Ed's head at the same time (with no helmet)

I've given you my answer. Sorry you don't like it. Again if you wish to move on then let's do so. If you wish to stop feel free

Casper Whitey

Pretty sure Shaw solos.

juggerman

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Pretty sure Shaw solos.

Nope. It took all of a second and a half for Xaiver to deduce the helmet was blocking his mind reading. Why would Ed not be able to figure it out? Not to mention Alice would see that there attacks would only power Shaw up.

Casper Whitey

Alice solos.

juggerman

Not against Xavier and Frost

Utrigita

Originally posted by juggerman
Nope. It took all of a second and a half for Xaiver to deduce the helmet was blocking his mind reading. Why would Ed not be able to figure it out? Not to mention Alice would see that there attacks would only power Shaw up.

Probably because Ed given his experience is more likely to think it's a taint ala Bellas then a result of the helmet, Xavier was able to deduce it because this time he knew there was no telepath blocking Shaws mind, so it had to be a different source.

juggerman

Originally posted by Utrigita
Probably because Ed given his experience is more likely to think it's a taint ala Bellas then a result of the helmet, Xavier was able to deduce it because this time he knew there was no telepath blocking Shaws mind, so it had to be a different source.

Edward has also said he's met "shields" before yet didn't know that's what Bella was since he said she was different than the others. She was an anomaly. Highly doubtful he'd just assume there was another like her. Especially since he wearing that weird helmet. Maybe he wouldn't think or if in the first nano second but to assume the thought would never ever cross his mind is crazy.

He'd try to figure out the reason for the block and the helmet is a more likely option than most anything else.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Have we seen any wearing crazy ass helmets? And we see how Ed reacted to Bella and what he thought but Bella was not wearing a massive HELMET!

It is probable that Edward would look for reasons he could read this guy wearing a very strange helmet. Now Ed has been around for about 100 yeaers and is about as smart as a person could be. He would be able to tell that wasn't a normal (motorcycle, football) helmet. Now he might think it was battle armor but since it's unlikely he has encountered anyone in a suit of armor before it's logical for his thought process to go "Hmm i can't read his mind. Could the helmet somehow be blocking me?" If Bella had been wearing a similar helmet (that didn't block her thoughts) it's natural for his thoughts to have gone there 1st as well only to be proved wrong.

You said something earlier about how "Shaw wouldn't think about exactly how is powers worked" or some such similar. Im saying that of course he would be thinking about it. That's all he has to offer. If you've ever been in a fight try to recall your thought process. You try to think of everything that could possibily happen. Everything you can do. The desired results of every action and reaction. Shaw would indeed think about his powers and how they worked even in the most basic sense and as the thoughts passed thru his head they would pass thru Ed's head at the same time (with no helmet)

I've given you my answer. Sorry you don't like it. Again if you wish to move on then let's do so. If you wish to stop feel free

Except all you have is conjecture and a "hope they behave this way" Reply further tainted by your prior knowledge of how Shaw's powers/gear work. You have no further evidence go support your answer rather than "he's old and smart, he'll figure it out" while I have ACTUAL on screen proof on how he ACTUALLY responded.

And no, I don't have to prove show anyonr wearing a silly helmet, you have ppl running around with no shirts all day long and you have ppl dressed up like in silly cloaks and yet no one seems to think that no shirts and silly cloaks is the source of anyone's power.

Listen: ppl with innate mental powers exist in Twiworld. But tech that negate/duplicate mental powers? They do not. It is far easier to assume something that exists in your world is present when something that has happened before (getting your TP blocked) happens again than it is to assume that a completely new factor is causing it. Pls get that thru your head. Also, Bella is not unique. Her dad has a weaker version of the mental shield.

Let me repeat: You're assuming that they'd behave out of character, think about things that DOES NOT exist in thier world, notice things that would not seem all that out of the ordinary considering what is common in their environment and deduce ALL this before the fighting even begins/prior to them taking sufficient casualties or Shaw getting hit with enough energy at the start or if any of the damned arguments that you didnt't adress come up to render your whole argument moot (if Edwards dies your argument is pointless, if Shaw is hit enough times by the wolves to pwer him up yoir argument is pointless, if Shaw holds on to the damned helmet your argument is pointless, if the aura protects the helmet, your argument is pointless, seriously, your argument is pointless). Can't you see how flimsy your entire argument is? It's sad that you can't see it.

And btw, you've conveniently skipped over my previous numbered response. Did you take the debate into a tangent to avoid answering them?

Why would it be relevant to this debate at all if Shaw would think about his powers? Without the helmet, this debate is moot as Jane could prolly (arguably) affect him with his powers.

It's silly to say it however, cuz Shaw, who is a man stepped deep in both subterfuge and deciet and is actually USED to hanging around telepaths on a daily basis as well as having a strong/trained enough mind where Prof X comments on how strong his mind is would CONVENIENTLY mention in his head how exactly his powers would work for the benefit of your beloved Twivamps so that they might win.....

Well, it's sad then. Cuz I'd love to pwn your new argument. Too bad you refuse to admit that your previous argument is flawed even though you have been unable to address my points (numbered for your convenience).

juggerman

So how does Shaw defeat Alice again? Or Edward since he'll be reading Alice's thoughts and therefore will know the future as well?

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
So how does Shaw defeat Alice again? Or Edward since he'll be reading Alice's thoughts and therefore will know the future as well?

Skipping my responses cuz you can't address them, eh?

Nice.

juggerman

Originally posted by juggerman
So how does Shaw defeat Alice again? Or Edward since he'll be reading Alice's thoughts and therefore will know the future as well?

Nibedicus

I have an argument. And it'll blow your mind

But first: do you concede the point that Edward and the Twivamps will NOT figure out the purpose of the helmet and Shaw's powers throughout the fight?

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I have an argument. And it'll blow your mind

But first: do you concede the point that Edward and the Twivamps will NOT figure out the purpose of the helmet and Shaw's powers throughout thr fight?

No i do not. So what's your argument?

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
No i do not. So what's your argument?

Well, too bad then.

I guess our little argument ends with me presenting points you are unable to adress and you just being too stubborn (or you wanting the Twivamps to win oh so badly against big bad Shaw) to concede.

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Well, too bad then.

I guess our little argument ends with me presenting points you are unable to adress and you just being too stubborn (or you wanting the Twivamps to win oh so badly against big bad Shaw) to concede.

Ok then. Shaw continues not to solo due to the mind reader and the fortune teller.

Guess this can just move on back to whether or not the vamps and wolves can take down the mutants.

Im thinking no due to X and Frost. Bella can't protect everyone so the telepaths could just start shutting off minds leaving only her

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Ok then. Shaw continues not to solo due to the mind reader and the fortune teller.

Guess this can just move on back to whether or not the vamps and wolves can take down the mutants.

Im thinking no due to X and Frost. Bella can't protect everyone so the telepaths could just start shutting off minds leaving only her

Nope. Shaw soloes as you have not disproven any of my points.

Denial is a sad sad thing.

Tho, I do agree that the mutants rape. As, yknow, Phoenix or Shaw could just solo.

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Nope. Shaw soloes as you have not disproven any of my points.

Impasse. No reason to continue that route. Shaw has no answer for Alice.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Impasse. No reason to continue that route. Shaw has no answer for Alice.

How is it an impasse when I've disproven all your points and you never addressed mine? laughing

If you feel that there is no reason to continue (or you are unable/unwilling to defend) that route why not concede it? I did you the courtesy of addressing your points (it takes time, thought and effort to type all that up) why not either give me the courtesy of addressing mine or give me the courtesy of a concession so we can proceed?

Is courtesy in debating beyond you? What are you so afraid of?

Utrigita

Originally posted by juggerman
Edward has also said he's met "shields" before yet didn't know that's what Bella was since he said she was different than the others. She was an anomaly. Highly doubtful he'd just assume there was another like her. Especially since he wearing that weird helmet. Maybe he wouldn't think or if in the first nano second but to assume the thought would never ever cross his mind is crazy.

He'd try to figure out the reason for the block and the helmet is a more likely option than most anything else.

It's also highly doubtfull that Edward will just instantly or even after a prolonged amount of time begin to wonder why he couldn't read Shaws mind, as you said he has encountered the situation before where he was in some shape or form incapable of reading the thoughts of various beings. Now he is standing (along with his friends) infront of a guy in a suit with a silly helmet, that is just smiling at them. I would personally ascribe the inability to read shaws mind as a result of insanity on Shaws part if I was Edward.

And while he tries to figure that out the rest of the group is just going to stand still and look at Shaw? The wolves isn't going to engage him, Emma (or whatever the girl that sets things on fire) isn't going to try that, they are all going to wait for Edward to figure out why he can't read Shaws mind?

Nibedicus

juggerman

Originally posted by Utrigita
It's also highly doubtfull that Edward will just instantly or even after a prolonged amount of time begin to wonder why he couldn't read Shaws mind, as you said he has encountered the situation before where he was in some shape or form incapable of reading the thoughts of various beings. Now he is standing (along with his friends) infront of a guy in a suit with a silly helmet, that is just smiling at them. I would personally ascribe the inability to read shaws mind as a result of insanity on Shaws part if I was Edward.

And while he tries to figure that out the rest of the group is just going to stand still and look at Shaw? The wolves isn't going to engage him, Emma (or whatever the girl that sets things on fire) isn't going to try that, they are all going to wait for Edward to figure out why he can't read Shaws mind?

Actually he has never encountered a person whose thoughts he could not read. He says so himself which is why Bella intrests him so much. And this was about Shaw vs the other team alone. If that were the case Ed would notice it right away. In a group it is much less likely unless that were all he was focused on

EDIT: Sorry i misread. In character they all wouldn't attack one person at once. When the Volturi attacked that one vamp Jane was the only one actively attacking and no one else did a thing until she stopped. Then it was Alec's turn. That's how they work.

And the wolves would most likely be the last to attack since they don't hurt humans and that's what they would think Shaw was.

Once Jane, Alec, and Edward realised their mental powers didn't work they would be cautious and maybe try to figure out why just like they tried right away with Bella

Nibedicus

To: Utriga

Some of what he said up there I already addressed. The fact that he repeats the same weak argument means that he didn't take the time to read my posts or just plain ignored it. Which means he just likes to waste ppl's time. He'll do the same to you. Best just to ignore him.

Shaw soloes. Phoenix soloes.

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
To: Utriga

Some of what he said up there I already addressed. The fact that he repeats the same weak argument means that he didn't take the time to read my posts or just plain ignored it. Which means he just likes to waste ppl's time. He'll do the same to you. Best just to ignore him.

Shaw soloes. Phoenix soloes.

Didn't realise i was so important to you that you just need to keep bringing me up.

So what's Shaw's answer for Alice?

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Didn't realise i was so important to you that you just need to keep bringing me up.

So what's Shaw's answer for Alice?

I wasn't talking to you. Utriga seems like a logical debater, don't want him wasting his time on someone who doesn't debate properly.

I'd answer but I don't want you going off on a tangent again and then claming "impasse" on arguments you have 0 answers for. It's a waste of my time, yknow? Why would anyone wanna answer if you debate that way?

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I wasn't talking to you. Utriga seems like a logical debater, don't want him wasting his time on someone

I'd answer but I don't want you going off on a tangent again and then claming "impasse" on arguments you have 0 answers for. It's a waste of my time, yknow? Why would anyone wanna answer if you debate that way?

You were talking to someone about me yes?

What tangent? All i said was i don't see a point in continuing that line. The same situation is still in play (Shaw by himself vs the Twilight guys) im just giving another reason don't think Shaw could win

If there was a tangent it came from you my friend. "I cannot argue another point at all ever unless you pat my head and say i was a good boy!"

I'm very interested in any way you or anyone else thinks Shaw can overcome Alice whenever you're ready

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
You were talking to someone about me yes?

What tangent? All i said was i don't see a point in continuing that line. The same situation is still in play (Shaw by himself vs the Twilight guys) im just giving another reason don't think Shaw could win

If there was a tangent it came from you my friend. "I cannot argue another point at all ever unless you pat my head and say i was a good boy!"

I'm very interested in any way you or anyone else thinks Shaw can overcome Alice whenever you're ready

Lol. Now you're either lying or don't know what a tangent is.

Or maybe you have a short memory?

Let me recap for your benefit. We've been debating about Shaw soloing. Your primary argumrnt against it was that "Edward will read his mind while Shaw is thinking about how his power work. As asinine as that is (yes completely asinine), I easily kicked that argument in the balls vis Shaw's helmet. Then we went back and forth about Edward figuring out what the helmet is for. I kicked that argument in the balls, too, but this time you head out into a COMPLETELY NEW direction w/o first addressing the arguments that I put together or at least conceding the point like any decent debator would.

THAT my friend is going off on a tanget. What I'm simply requesting is that you go back to the topic we were discussing snd either a) address my previous points with a counterargument or b) concede that the whole "Edward figures it out" logic was flawed (it is) from the beginning. I mean, why even defend this stance?? You, yourself, mentioned that his line of thought is no longer worth discussing (in your opinion). Why not concede it?

I would address your new argument but I refuse to waste my time with you if (by your current behavior) all you do is run off on tangents the minute you're losing in your current line of thought.

Or are you just trolling now?

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Lol. Now you're either lying or don't know what a tangent is.

Or maybe you have a short memory?

Let me recap for your benefit. We've been debating about Shaw soloing. Your primary argumrnt against it was that "Edward will read his mind while Shaw is thinking about how his power work. As asinine as that is (yes completely asinine), I easily kicked that argument in the balls vis Shaw's helmet. Then we went back and forth about Edward figuring out what the helmet is for. I kicked that argument in the balls, too, but this time you head out into a COMPLETELY NEW direction w/o first addressing the arguments that I put together or at least conceding the point like any decent debator would.

THAT my friend is going off on a tanget. What I'm simply requesting is that you go back to the topic we were discussing snd either a) address my previous points with a counterargument or b) concede that the whole "Edward figures it out" logic was flawed (it is) from the beginning. I mean, why even defend this stance?? You, yourself, mentioned that his line of thought is no longer worth discussing (in your opinion). Why not concede it?

I would address your new argument but I refuse to waste my time with you if (by your current behavior) all you do is run off on tangents the minute you're losing in your current line of thought.

Or are you just trolling now?

Aren't you wasting your time with me now? Why not do so with a argument about how Shaw beats Alice

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Aren't you wasting your time with me now? Why not do so with a argument about how Shaw beats Alice

Because now I'm enjoying wasting your time as much as you wasted mine.

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Because now I'm enjoying wasting your time as much as you wasted mine.

I guess that makes sense. Tho i really think you've wasted your own time. I tried to continue past our back and forth time by bringing a new dimension to the debate and you kept trying to avoid it.

I g2g soon but i'll be back tomorrow to continue wasting time.

Silent Master

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Because now I'm enjoying wasting your time as much as you wasted mine.

Actually, he originally admitted to trolling you, but he seems to have realized that admtting it was a bad idea and edited his post

juggerman

Originally posted by Silent Master
Actually, he originally admitted to trolling you, but he seems to have realized that admtting it was a bad idea and edited his post

Nah i was gonna leave it but i actually had a question

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
I guess that makes sense. Tho i really think you've wasted your own time. I tried to continue past our back and forth time by bringing a new dimension to the debate and you kept trying to avoid it.

I g2g soon but i'll be back tomorrow to continue wasting time.

Hey, I'm just burning time til my gf gets back from work (took a sabbatical from work to help her apartment hunt, move, etc after Sandy). Got nothing but time to burn.

I want to continue past it, too. What I do not get is why you refuse to concede your previous argument when you are obviously unable and unwilling to defend it any further.

BruceSkywalker

after reading some of this is Juggerman saying that Edward can Shaw's mind even though Shaw has on the helmet??

Casper Whitey

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
after reading some of this is Juggerman saying that Edward can Shaw's mind even though Shaw has on the helmet?? Shaw solos. Not sure how they can hurt him here.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
after reading some of this is Juggerman saying that Edward can Shaw's mind even though Shaw has on the helmet??

For a time, I think he was (or it seemed like he was). He recently retracted/corrected it with his comment (in parenthesis) about how the helmet would be off when Edward read's Shaw's mind (w/c would make the whole mind reading moot as Jane would be able to use her powers instead). Don't ask me where he was taking that line of thought, tho. stick out tongue

Casper Whitey

Originally posted by Nibedicus
For a time, I think he was (or it seemed like he was). He recently retracted/corrected it with his comment (in parenthesis) about how the helmet would be off when Edward read's Shaw's mind (w/c would make the whole mind reading moot as Jane would be able to use her powers instead). Don't ask me where he was taking that line of thought, tho. stick out tongue

Yeah, Jane solos.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Yeah, Jane solos.

laughing out loud

Make up your mind, damn you! /poke

Casper Whitey

Originally posted by Nibedicus
laughing out loud

Make up your mind, damn you! /poke

Jane is a major force here, honestly. As is Shaw. I can't decide.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Jane is a major force here, honestly. As is Shaw. I can't decide.

mmm

BruceSkywalker

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Shaw solos. Not sure how they can hurt him here.

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Yeah, Jane solos.

you must enjoy waffles, don't you??? laughing out loud

maybe he'll extract on it more lol

rox

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Shaw solos. Not sure how they can hurt him here.

would love to see shaw kick some vampire ass

juggerman

No i think you misunderstood my meaning. At first yeah i said Ed would read his mind until someone brought up the helmet. Which i replied Ed would realise then he was being blocked and suspect the helmet. You argued he wouldn't look to the helmet. After some back and forth i said Jane would also try her power and fail due to the helmet and no you have more ppl looking for the reason they are being blocked. You said they still wouldn't suspect the helmet so i dropped that and looked to Alice for a reason Shaw would lose.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
No i think you misunderstood my meaning. At first yeah i said Ed would read his mind until someone brought up the helmet. Which i replied Ed would realise then he was being blocked and suspect the helmet. You argued he wouldn't look to the helmet. After some back and forth i said Jane would also try her power and fail due to the helmet and no you have more ppl looking for the reason they are being blocked. You said they still wouldn't suspect the helmet so i dropped that and looked to Alice for a reason Shaw would lose.

You "dropped" the argument but refuse to concede it?

mmm

You DO know that once you concede the whole "Ed will figure out Shaw's powers/helmet" argument, we can proceed to your new one right away?

As you seem to be unable/unwilling to defend that argument, what exactly is your reason to refuse concession other than just being a poor sport?

Is there any reason to it other than that?

juggerman

Because it doesn't make sense to me to continue an argument point when a whole new and better one popped into my head.

But ok since i think dragged out long enough i hereby agree that none of the Twilight team will find anything weird at all about Shaw's helmet and would never ever suspect it of blocking their mental powers. Hell if Shaw just stood there screaming "The helmet is protecting my mind from you chumps!!!" they still wouldn't be able to figure it out.

I feel a whole lot beter now.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Because it doesn't make sense to me to continue an argument point when a whole new and better one popped into my head.

But ok since i think dragged out long enough i hereby agree that none of the Twilight team will find anything weird at all about Shaw's helmet and would never ever suspect it of blocking their mental powers. Hell if Shaw just stood there screaming "The helmet is protecting my mind from you chumps!!!" they still wouldn't be able to figure it out.

I feel a whole lot beter now.

I was gonna congratulate you on your graciousness in accepting the flaw in your argument up until you inserted: "Hell if Shaw just stood there screaming "The helmet is protecting my mind from you chumps!!!" they still wouldn't be able to figure it out." That makes it seem more of a backhanded admission than anything.

If you simply said: "I am unwilling to proceed with this line of thought and therefore, I shall concede it." you woulda won tons of respect from me (and other ppl reading IMO), but I guess this is the best you can do.

Just to be clear, before I go forward, you're not going to suddenly claim that you were "joking" or "being sarcastic" when you admitted concession right? Yes or no to this would be acceptable.

juggerman

The consession will stand.

Nibedicus

I will hold you to that.

Very well, as promised, here is my argument regarding why Alice will not be such an issue with Shaw soloing:

As per forum rules, each combatant fights at full capacity. Which means that they will fight in character and fight how they are shown to fight a real threat/enemy. As per forum rules:

Full Capacity

It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.

It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

For the same reason Thor would not hesitate in a fight vs Captain America in a forum fight (even tho this is highly unlikely in a comic), we assume that Twiwolves will not "hang back" and hesitate in a fight vs a human.

The Twiwolves will attack. They will not hang back. And sadly this would mean that they will strike Shaw many times. Why Alice's power not help them you ask? Well this is because Alice's powers DO NOT WORK ON ANYTHING INVOLVING QUILEUTE SHAPESHIFTERS. Even if it is someone else's decisions she is tracking (that is why she can't see Bella's future while she was with Jacob IIRC).

Blew your mind yet? :O

juggerman

Actually i figured that's where you would go. Well played my friend

EDIT: You asked "Blew your mind yet?" like if it didn't you have more. Do you indeed have more or was that it?

Robtard

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Juggernaut slams into a group of Twivamps at full speed. Result?

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/3039458_o.gif

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I will hold you to that.

Very well, as promised, here is my argument regarding why Alice will not be such an issue with Shaw soloing:

As per forum rules, each combatant fights at full capacity. Which means that they will fight in character and fight how they are shown to fight a real threat/enemy. As per forum rules:

Full Capacity

It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.

It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

For the same reason Thor would not hesitate in a fight vs Captain America in a forum fight (even tho this is highly unlikely in a comic), we assume that Twiwolves will not "hang back" and hesitate in a fight vs a human.

The Twiwolves will attack. They will not hang back. And sadly this would mean that they will strike Shaw many times. Why Alice's power not help them you ask? Well this is because Alice's powers DO NOT WORK ON ANYTHING INVOLVING QUILEUTE SHAPESHIFTERS. Even if it is someone else's decisions she is tracking (that is why she can't see Bella's future while she was with Jacob IIRC).

Blew your mind yet? :O

Ok here's my retort. Numbered of course.

1. The wolves have shown that it is in character to follow the lead of the vampires in battles shown in Eclipse and again in Breaking Dawn. They would not attack 1st. Just because they would use all their might does not mean they go against their character. They would wait for the vamps to move 1st like they always have

2. Just went thru the Movie Vs Forum Rules and could not find a "Full Capacity" rule at all. Maybe you could show me where you saw it

3. Movie Alice (the character we are actually debating here) had no trouble seeing the wolves during the vision she had in BD2. Now i know what you'll say. Something along the lines of "well in the book she couldn't see them so she can't here" right? Close? Well after reading the Movie Vs Forum rules maybe you'll change your mind

"The MVF Golden Rule:
What is seen on screen is canon in these forums. If your character you wish to use has feats/actions/handicaps that contradict what that character did on screen (movie canon), then it is a violation and is illegal. MOVIE FEATS ONLY!"

Notice what's in BOLD?

Alice's handicap is NOT valid here since this was a "handicap that contradicts what the character did on screen and is ILLEGAL"

MOVIE FEATS ONLY

So seeing as how Movie canon is what is used here Alice sees ALL!!!!

4. Me thinks you're trying to bring other rules from other forums over here and sadly that is not allowed sad

5. Even if they did attack Shaw and powered him up (which they wouldn't for reasons mentioned above) Alice and Edward(who would be reading Alice's mind and therefore also seeing the future) would be able to see when and how Shaw was going to release the stored energy and would avoid any attack with their extreme speed. Everyone else may die(unlikely) but Shaw has no way to put them down. He will soon run out of energy and be harmless again and then they could easily do away with him. How you ask? BFR is the most likely route i think. Also one of them could just carry him to a shallow pond and hold him underwater until the bubbles stop.

6. eek!

juggerman

Just a quick FYI im really only on here while im at work. Im leaving work in about 40 mins then i dont work again until Monday. Maybe Sunday. So if you reply and feel like you've smashed my point and then don't hear from me for a few days i wouldn't want you think i ran off butthurt. thumb up

Nibedicus

See? This is proper debating. You toss points, I toss points. If one makes a point, we acknowledge it and toss me a courtesy and I will five you the same.

Anyway, understood. Won't expect a reply til next week then.

Will have my reply put together by tonight. Still going thru the Twi movie scripts before I finalize.

Don't have much time today, either. Gf is off today and she wants to go out on a run. Be back tonite.

juggerman

Good stuff

Nibedicus

1. They don't "follow the lead of vampires", they listen to their alpha who, in turn, had a battle plan set with the vampires.The wolves followed a coordinated attack plan when they engaged the in their fights with the vampires (prep). That is why they attacked in a sequenced (vampires at front, them from behind).

They do not have that luxury here. This is a no prep here and thus, no reason for them to execute any such battle plan. In order for your logic to work, they'd nearly have to behave in a forum controlled way, w/c is unlikely (tho, admittedly, remotely possible).

2. The "full capacity" rule would make sense in any fictional VS forum that allows allies/friends to fight each other, otherwise, it would be impossible to put theads that allow such matchups. But to be sure, I've msgd a mod about it and we should just wait for a ruling here.

3. The end of BD2 was very controversial from fans and critics alike (several articles out there that criticized it) due to it breaking a basic rule that was set in both the books and movies (Alice not being able to see the wolves due to their nature and the nature of her powers). And before you go around saying this isn't the case, New Moon mentioned this limitation of her power when Bella jumped off the cliff and she could no longer see what occured as soon as Jacob rescued her. That is why she thought Bella died. Forums/articles also mention another instance in Eclipse (but I can't for the life of me find it in the script) as well as in BD1 where she was unable to see Bella's future due to her hybrid daughter being involved.

Now the book will coroborate this rule as well (even tho we are not allowed to use it as evidence), if the book were allowed, under the normal circumatances, we could just chalk the end scene as blatant PIS. Hell, if the book description of how her power works is allowed, she should not be able to see Shaw at all as he is of a breed she never encountered before (mutant).

But, as it is, all we have are conflicting evidences about how her powers work. To proceed, I propose We debate on what we can find "acceptable" interpretations for both sides to use in creating debatable scenarious using on screen evidences.

However, if we simply used your method in determining how things work and what things are allowed then answer this: when exactly in the movie was it shown that Alice ACTIVELY used her powers in combat in a "constantly shifting" fashion?

Remember: movie "feats" only.

4) Already sent the msg to a mod for a ruling.

5) In every one of his showings in the movie. Shaw was never shown to NEED outside energy to charge up. He just used outside energy to get an added boost. So it's arguable if his base stats is even human-level in the movie. Case in point:

-dRuwBwnmsU

Even prior to him being shot, he was already stong enough to toss someone as if he was no lighter than a baseball.

Also, from what we saw in the movies, Shaw is a patient man. Also, very methodical and prone to gloat and monologue. He will no doubt kill a few but he's smart enough not to kill the wolves first if they're the ones whaling on him. And any warning from Alice or Edward won't placate the wolves once a few of them drop, they'll keep whaling on him til they die of exhaistion. He'll then target the ones "hanging back" (as you put it).

And movie Twivamps aren't that fast. Even Edward and Alice. You're giving them too much credit. And Shaw isn't stupid, he isn't gonna swing and miss all day long til his energy is depleted. I have serious doubts that they'd be avoiding Shaw's stomp. Did you see how fast that explosion travelled?? AND it's an AoE!

Drowning won't work, Magneto couldn't budge Shaw, neither are the Twivamps._

Utrigita

Originally posted by Nibedicus

-dRuwBwnmsU

Some of the movie is missing, the guy that Shaw lifts shot at him before the lift.

http://www.putlocker.com/file/AF792513692F8948#

Go to 1:02:49

Casper Whitey

Originally posted by Robtard
http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/3039458_o.gif lol.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Utrigita
Some of the movie is missing, the guy that Shaw lifts shot at him before the lift.

http://www.putlocker.com/file/AF792513692F8948#

Go to 1:02:49

Guess that's what happens when one posts at 1am while uber sleepy. Sloppy of me not to remember that scene right. Admittedly, it seemed shorter than how I remember it but I just assumed it was due to me being sleepy.

Disregard my "Shaw comes in charged argument" then.

Utrigita

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Guess that's what happens when one posts at 1am while uber sleepy. Sloppy of me not to remember that scene right. Admittedly, it seemed shorter than how I remember it but I just assumed it was due to me being sleepy.

Disregard my "Shaw comes in charged argument" then.

Np, just wanted to point it out, that the movie wasn't complete, which can hardly be your fault smile

It doesn't matter however what form Shaw arrives in, he still wins.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Utrigita
Np, just wanted to point it out, that the movie wasn't complete, which can hardly be your fault smile

It doesn't matter however what form Shaw arrives in, he still wins.

Yeah, my fault for committing to post "by tonight" of that day.

Was too cold to run so gf enrolled us at the gym instead. 2 months from the last time I was at the gym, suffice it to say, it kicked my butt and left me with a "ahhhh f- it!!" mindset last night leading to a rather sloppy argument (admittedly).

Impediment

Okay, so Nibedicus sent me a PM requesting that I make a ruling for an argument in this thread.

From what I've read, is the disagreement about the "seen on screen" golden rule?

Can both parties post a brief reply about how I can help solve this?

Casper Whitey

If it was shown onscreen, it's valid here.

If it was not shown onscreen, it's not valid here.

Robtard

Originally posted by Nibedicus

Disregard my "Shaw comes in charged argument" then. Shaw would be charging himself every time he takes a step. So he's likely never without some added power.

juggerman

Originally posted by Impediment
Okay, so Nibedicus sent me a PM requesting that I make a ruling for an argument in this thread.

From what I've read, is the disagreement about the "seen on screen" golden rule?

Can both parties post a brief reply about how I can help solve this?

Well i believe since we saw it on screen in BD2 then we should accept it as canon according to the "Golden Rule". It's pretty clear that here the movie feats are most important and are considered canon even if the source material contradicts it. To not accept this would be a direct violation of the "Golden Rule" and should not be allowed.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Well i believe since we saw it on screen in BD2 then we should accept it as canon according to the "Golden Rule". It's pretty clear that here the movie feats are most important and are considered canon even if the source material contradicts it. To not accept this would be a direct violation of the "Golden Rule" and should not be allowed.

Welcome back! Didn't wanna post til you got back in order to give you adequate chance to post your argument. smile

Anyway, I think you need to be more specific. stick out tongue

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Welcome back! Didn't wanna post til you got back in order to give you adequate chance to post your argument. smile

Anyway, I think you need to be more specific. stick out tongue

The request on ruling was about initial reaction/behavior of the Twiwolves with respect to who they were facing off against. You mentioned that they would "hang back" becausr they were fighting a human. I argued that they would fight at "full capacity" or attack like they were facing any normal enemy.

This is very relevant as Shaw's power is highly reactive and not all that proactive.

Your argument was based on Twiwolf sentiment about human not being their primary prey on Twiworld and would thus not want to engage and that the movie VS "golden rule" in limitations apply. _My point was that ANY VS thread where allies would fight or even when one side has emotional feelings for the opposing side, the fighter would no doubt not want to engage and would thus not make sense to debate about at all.

Anyway, a ruling would be nice. Thanks.

Yes my stance was that they would allow the vamps to engage the target 1st as shown in Eclipse and BD2. And in BD2 we see one of the wolves start to charge and the leader made him/her hold back.

Now we never see the wolves and vamps make an actual "battle plan" or at any point tell/ask the wolves to wait to attack. In the book there wasn't a "plan" either (other than trying to avoid a fight) so we can assume that allowing the vamps to head in 1st is just something the wolves/this pack master feels is in their best intrest. He isn't one to just let his guys rush in blindly. He seems to be a bit of a tactician himself and tries to ensure the safety of his pack. Also he seems smart enough to realise that attacking Shaw like lunitics(if they did) was doing nothing(even if he didn't know it was empowering Shaw) and would try a change of tactics.

Also Shaw hasn't really ever show the discretion of elemitating certain opponents while leaving others alive to continue powering him up. While being shot and blown up from all sides Shaw decides to take out everyone at once with his monster foot stomp. He didn't leave some around to keep firing as you suggest he would do with the wolves. He'd most likely do his foot stomp(if he got the power in the 1st place) trying to kill everyone at once as he's been shown to do.

This attack would probably kill every single wolf. Dunno about the vamps cuz nothing has been shown to hurt them besides other vamp's strength and shifter teeth which we can't calculate. But i'm willing to say it would kill a vamp caught in it.

Now we have the other issue. Alice would see this attack and all others coming. So would Edward thru Alice. And maybe anyone else who sees them get clear would do the same knowing Alice's power. The vamps have shown extreme speed and would be able to get clear of the blast if they knew it was coming which Alice and Ed would.

Now just like they don't know of Shaw's power and helmet Shaw doesn't know of Alice's future seeing. He'd assume she got lucky and try something else or the same thing over again. He would expend all of his energy leaving him a non threat. Alice can then just sit on him.

A big part of this depends on Alice "seeing" while the wolves are present so maybe we should wait for a ruling to continue?

juggerman

Originally posted by Robtard
Shaw would be charging himself every time he takes a step. So he's likely never without some added power.

I don't think so. He was never shown to be charging as he walked or ran. It was only when some outside force hit him or something. Maybe that's a way he's limited? Maybe he cannot charge himself but must have some kind of outside force do it like the reactor. Guess to stop him from just punching himself to Hulk level power?

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Yes my stance was that they would allow the vamps to engage the target 1st as shown in Eclipse and BD2. And in BD2 we see one of the wolves start to charge and the leader made him/her hold back.

Now we never see the wolves and vamps make an actual "battle plan" or at any point tell/ask the wolves to wait to attack. In the book there wasn't a "plan" either (other than trying to avoid a fight) so we can assume that allowing the vamps to head in 1st is just something the wolves/this pack master feels is in their best intrest. He isn't one to just let his guys rush in blindly. He seems to be a bit of a tactician himself and tries to ensure the safety of his pack. Also he seems smart enough to realise that attacking Shaw like lunitics(if they did) was doing nothing(even if he didn't know it was empowering Shaw) and would try a change of tactics.

Also Shaw hasn't really ever show the discretion of elemitating certain opponents while leaving others alive to continue powering him up. While being shot and blown up from all sides Shaw decides to take out everyone at once with his monster foot stomp. He didn't leave some around to keep firing as you suggest he would do with the wolves. He'd most likely do his foot stomp(if he got the power in the 1st place) trying to kill everyone at once as he's been shown to do.

This attack would probably kill every single wolf. Dunno about the vamps cuz nothing has been shown to hurt them besides other vamp's strength and shifter teeth which we can't calculate. But i'm willing to say it would kill a vamp caught in it.

Now we have the other issue. Alice would see this attack and all others coming. So would Edward thru Alice. And maybe anyone else who sees them get clear would do the same knowing Alice's power. The vamps have shown extreme speed and would be able to get clear of the blast if they knew it was coming which Alice and Ed would.

Now just like they don't know of Shaw's power and helmet Shaw doesn't know of Alice's future seeing. He'd assume she got lucky and try something else or the same thing over again. He would expend all of his energy leaving him a non threat. Alice can then just sit on him.

A big part of this depends on Alice "seeing" while the wolves are present so maybe we should wait for a ruling to continue?

They were discussing battle plans and tactics in Eclipse.

Also, the above is a new approach to the debate. Your previous argument was:

Originally posted by juggerman
Ok try looking at it this way:

Shaw is standing in a field ready to fight The Cullens The Wolves and the Volturi. Right away Edward will realise he can't read guy's mind. Dakota Fanning (forgot her character's name), who always attacks first, would try to cause him pain which wouldn't work. Right away they would put everyone on alert that this guy is different somehow. (Alec might try but eh) Now "insert name here" will want to finish this guy quickly via punch/kick/bite/fart.

Alice would see right away that any attack they try would fail and cause their demise. Now since the future is constantly shifting she will see multible futures but they will have one thing in common. THEY ATTACK FIRST! She'll see that without them outright hitting him he can't/won't do spit. She'll relay this and boom goes the dynamite.

Also the wolves don't harm humans and only kill vampires so they would be the least likely to attack

That's very in character for everybody including Shaw to just sit there waiting to be hit. He might also try to goad them but all in all Alice would see the results and stop them from playing his game

Am I to assume that you've abandoned this argument as well? Becaue, y'know, this would render the ruling moot as it has very little to do with who attacks first.

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
They were discussing battle plans and tactics in Eclipse.

They really only discussed how the new borns fight and how to get around that and kill them not who attacks 1st iirc. But i was talking about BD2 but if you're right that furthers my point. They set up how they engage a target together as a team and that carried over into their next battle as well. That shows the wolves are highly likely to keep this trend in future fights since it's been established that's what they do when they fight alongside vamps. They allow the vamps to engage 1st and set themselves up as the "second wave"

Meanwhile all the vampires have shown to act in certain ways in fights. Namely the Volturi sits back while Jane (and maybe Alec) does her thing. Once that doesn't work Aro gets very curious(as he did with Bella) and with Alice there he would look to her knowing her ability. The rest would follow suit since they wouldn't attack against Aro's wishes.

The Cullens would look to Alice and Edward 1st anyway. And the wolves seeing the vamps are slow to attack (knowing there mind reading and future seeing powers) they would know to be extra cautious and would heed any warnings and instructions

I thought you asked for a ruling about Alice seeing the future when the wolves are nearby. And i was simply addressing your pervious points about how the wolves would just attack and attack like mindless animals even tho they've shown to be otherwise.

Nibedicus

No, we were requesting a ruling on the "Full Capacity" rule.

We haven't done an interchange of evidences on the Alice scenario yet and it has less go do with rules interpretation and more to do with presenting evidences so a mod ruling is not even needed there at all.

However, if we go by your new scenario (w/c really is a better argument than your silly "they just stare at Shaw until Alice figures out hkw his powers work" logic) the mod ruling would no longer be needed.

And you might want to down on yoir churning out new theories until either Imp has issued his ruling unless you're willing to concede/give up your OLD theory to be replaced with your new one (in w/c a mod ruling would no longer be needed) as a courtesy to Imp (so as to not waste his time reading through things which has nothing to do with the ruling requested).

And with the parts above you DID insert that covers the "full capacity" rule: the wolves deffered to the vamp knowledge when fighting other vamps (where wolves are better off flanking the newborns (Jasper: you have to come at them from the side), There is no reason for them to do so when engaging a lone target and a human at that.

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
No, we were requesting a ruling on the "Full Capacity" rule.

We haven't done an interchange of evidences on the Alice scenario yet and it has less go do with rules interpretation and more to do with presenting evidences so a mod ruling is not even needed there at all.

However, if we go by your new scenario (w/c really is a better argument than your silly "they just stare at Shaw until Alice figures out hkw his powers work" logic) the mod ruling would no longer be needed.

And you might want to down on yoir churning out new theories until either Imp has issued his ruling unless you're willing to concede/give up your OLD theory to be replaced with your new one (in w/c a mod ruling would no longer be needed) as a courtesy to Imp (so as to not waste his time reading through things which has nothing to do with the ruling requested).

And with the parts above you DID insert that covers the "full capacity" rule: the wolves deffered to the vamp knowledge when fighting other vamps (where wolves are better off flanking the newborns (Jasper: you have to come at them from the side), There is no reason for them to do so when engaging a lone target and a human at that.

Imp said he figured we were debating the "Golden Rule" which i brought up in the case of Alice. I just figured since that's when i used it that's what he was referring to.

What part of my argument changed? I said the wolves wouldn't attack 1st and gave my reasons as to why. Which were 1. They give the vamps lead and 2. They might not be as eager to kill a (percieved) human.

Granted "2" might be nil considering this is a forum fight but that would still leave "1"

And as far as Jasper's advice goes: the situation was different in BD2. They weren't fighting New Borns they were fighting very experienced vamps which calls for a different "game plan" yet they still allowed the vamps to take lead. Since that's the case in both these two different instances it shows that it is just the wolves M.O. when it comes to battling alongside the vamps

Nibedicus

Originally posted by juggerman
Imp said he figured we were debating the "Golden Rule" which i brought up in the case of Alice. I just figured since that's when i used it that's what he was referring to.

What part of my argument changed? I said the wolves wouldn't attack 1st and gave my reasons as to why. Which were 1. They give the vamps lead and 2. They might not be as eager to kill a (percieved) human.

Granted "2" might be nil considering this is a forum fight but that would still leave "1"

And as far as Jasper's advice goes: the situation was different in BD2. They weren't fighting New Borns they were fighting very experienced vamps which calls for a different "game plan" yet they still allowed the vamps to take lead. Since that's the case in both these two different instances it shows that it is just the wolves M.O. when it comes to battling alongside the vamps

No, you brought "the golden rule" up later. I brought up the mod ruling.

This was the exhange:

You: 2. Just went thru the Movie Vs Forum Rules and could not find a "Full Capacity" rule at all. Maybe you could show me where you saw it

Me: 2. The "full capacity" rule would make sense in any fictional VS forum that allows allies/friends to fight each other, otherwise, it would be impossible to put theads that allow such matchups. But to be sure, I've msgd a mod about it and we should just wait for a ruling here.

But, as I mentioned, the segment of the debate that NEEDS a ruling are the portions where rules interpretations are needed. Parts of the debate wherein evidences from both sides haven't even been brought up yet don't need mod rulings.

You opinion 2 needed the mod ruling as it has a lot to do with the "full capacity" rule. Opinion 1 is open to debate (and I will bring up my points once opinion 2 has been ruled on/conceded to). I do this to keep things simple and to prevent the debate from degenerating into 3-page multiscenario stand offs with several dangling "loose end" arguments that never gets addressed w/c would just end up with both sides trolling each other i the end or just going "nuh uh!" all day (a common enough occurence in KMC especially when obsessive fanboys are involved, I noticed).

Esentially, I wang it conclusive for either side. So I'm sure you Can appreciate what I'm trying to do here.

Actually, when battling a single target, they're not all that cooperative with vampires. See: Victoria.

Edit. Correction: You indeed brought up the golden rule when it came to Alice early. However, I never disputed that the Golden rule applied to Alice and simply disputed the logic about "holding back Wolves" due to my understanding that "full capacity" applies.

juggerman

Originally posted by Nibedicus
No, you brought "the golden rule" up later. I brought up the mod ruling.

This was the exhange:

You: 2. Just went thru the Movie Vs Forum Rules and could not find a "Full Capacity" rule at all. Maybe you could show me where you saw it

Me: 2. The "full capacity" rule would make sense in any fictional VS forum that allows allies/friends to fight each other, otherwise, it would be impossible to put theads that allow such matchups. But to be sure, I've msgd a mod about it and we should just wait for a ruling here.

But, as I mentioned, the segment of the debate that NEEDS a ruling are the portions where rules interpretations are needed. Parts of the debate wherein evidences from both sides haven't even been brought up yet don't need mod rulings.

You opinion 2 needed the mod ruling as it has a lot to do with the "full capacity" rule. Opinion 1 is open to debate (and I will bring up my points once opinion 2 has been ruled on/conceded to). I do this to keep things simple and to prevent the debate from degenerating into 3-page multiscenario stand offs with several dangling "loose end" arguments that never gets addressed w/c would just end up with both sides trolling each other i the end or just going "nuh uh!" all day (a common enough occurence in KMC especially when obsessive fanboys are involved, I noticed).

Esentially, I wang it conclusive for either side. So I'm sure you Can appreciate what I'm trying to do here.

Actually, when battling a single target, they're not all that cooperative with vampires. See: Victoria.

I brought up the Golden Rule about Alice THEN you brought up the PM THEN Imp brought up the Rule again.

I guess i just misremembered what you said the PM was about but i looked back and I'm all caught up.

We can drop the number two reason since you've pointed out that since this is a forum fight the whole "we don't hurt humans" thing wouldn't be in play. I thought we were asking Imp for something else so we need not bother him

And are you refferring to when they were chasing Victoria BEFORE they decided to actually work together in Eclipse? Cuz well.... that was before they decided to work together. After they decided to be "friends" and not bicker they have followed the same (pretty effective) tactic. The vamps attack 1st then the wolves come out to play