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It was revealed that the Hyuga Clan is Konoha's oldest and greatest bloodline. (Even though the Uchiha and Senju Clan both had reside in Konoha at a time) Also Kakashi mentioned that the Uchiha's origins lie with the Hyuga. A metaphore meaning that the first Uchiha was brought into the 1st generation shinobi world by a Hyuga woman, Rikidou's wife. So now we all know what that means for the next Sage Of The 6 Paths (Naruto)

Yep. Clearly a clan based around ninjutsu and chakra control predate the creators of ninjutsu and chakra.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Yep. Clearly a clan based around ninjutsu and chakra control predate the creators of ninjutsu and chakra.


And certainly not a sign someone was working off incorrect information!

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Yep. Clearly a clan based around ninjutsu and chakra control predate the creators of ninjutsu and chakra. No. The Hyuga clan is based around Taijustu and Chakra control, provided with the fact that the first stage of their byakugan is based on Focus & Sensory. Focus that targets the opponent's chakra circulatory system, effectively cutting off the target's Chakra with their taijustu style. (Gentle Fist) which is enough in some cases for the capture or death of a enemy depending on how many chakra points were hit by their Taijustu.

And the Byakugan's sensory is as well as obvious the all seeing white eye, thats unparalleled in vision including telescopic compared to the other Doujustus (Rinnegan) (Sharingan)

Rikidou Sennin was not the creator of Martial arts nor the creator of physical fighting, for self defense or otherwise. Rikidou Sennin was the discovered reality of Ninjustu and Genjustu NOT Taijustu.

To make myself more clear: Kakashi has no way of knowing who really came first. Much knowledge from back then was explicitly lost, the only reason we know the Sage really was real was the Biju confirmed it.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Rikidou Sennin was not the creator of Martial arts nor the creator of physical fighting, for self defense or otherwise. Rikidou Sennin was the discovered reality of Ninjustu and Genjustu NOT Taijustu.

But he defeated the being who was the progenitor of all chakra in the world. Ergo, he predates chakra techniques like Gentle Fist.

But keep in mind that you're using Kakashi's information to say these things. You are aware Kakashi believed the Sage to be nothing more than a myth right?

My internet is being shutdown for a week, so i wont be able to reply to this and other threads when there are disagreements & contradictions, so dont make anymore disagreements conserning this thread untill i come back and have a chance to reply. (That includes YOU Q99, play fair)

Originally posted by Q99
To make myself more clear: Kakashi has no way of knowing who really came first. Much knowledge from back then was explicitly lost, the only reason we know the Sage really was real was the Biju confirmed it. You have a point there. but it was confirmed that the Hyuga were around before the Uchiha and Senju. the quote The Hyuga clan is Konoha's Oldest and Greatest Bloodline confirms it which means that they were around before Rikidou Sennin.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
But he defeated the being who was the progenitor of all chakra in the world. Ergo, he predates chakra techniques like Gentle Fist.

But keep in mind that you're using Kakashi's information to say these things. You are aware Kakashi believed the Sage to be nothing more than a myth right? Rikidou defeated the Juubi. no one knows how why or when the Juubi was created. the Juubi come before the (shinobi world) but the Hyuga came before Rikidou Sennin.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
You have a point there. but it was confirmed that the Hyuga were around before the Uchiha and Senju. the quote The Hyuga clan is Konoha's Oldest and Greatest Bloodline confirms it which means that they were around before Rikidou Sennin. As much as I love the Hyuuga...there is no proof they were around before Rikidou. They ARE the oldest and greatest bloodline in Konoha...wanna know why. Senju and Uchiha are all but wiped out while they survive. Not to mention they are they most cocky, excluding Hinata. Also Konoha wasn't around until a Senju and Uchiha created it, but that's besides the point I suppose.

Originally posted by Kento
As much as I love the Hyuuga...there is no proof they were around before Rikidou. They ARE the oldest and greatest bloodline in Konoha...wanna know why. Senju and Uchiha are all but wiped out while they survive. Not to mention they are they most cocky, excluding Hinata. Also Konoha wasn't around until a Senju and Uchiha created it, but that's besides the point I suppose. You further proved my point. The Hyuga were said to be Konoha's oldest bloodline even though the Uchiha and Senju both founded Konoha and had reside in Konoha at the same time.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
You further proved my point. The Hyuga were said to be Konoha's oldest bloodline even though the Uchiha and Senju both founded Konoha and had reside in Konoha at the same time. One still exists within Konoha, one is all but died out, and the others bloodline doesn't exist except in distant relatives. Of course Hyuuga are gonna be the oldest bloodline. The villages aren't really that old either

Originally posted by Kento
One still exists within Konoha, one is all but died out, and the others bloodline doesn't exist except in distant relatives. Of course Hyuuga are gonna be the oldest bloodline. The villages aren't really that old either Nah my point is. The 2 bloodlines (Uchiha) (Senju) that founded Konoha should have been the oldest and greatest since they were supposed to be the first ones there, but instead the Hyuga were the oldest and greatest bloodline.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Nah my point is. The 2 bloodlines (Uchiha) (Senju) that founded Konoha should have been the oldest and greatest since they were supposed to be the first ones there, but instead the Hyuga were the greatest bloodline. As only said by Kakashi, and Hyuuga members, in present day time, when no Senju or Uchiha (except non-plot device Sasuke) are alive in Konoha.

Originally posted by Kento
As only said by Kakashi, and Hyuuga members, in present day time, when no Senju or Uchiha (except non-plot device Sasuke) are alive in Konoha. True, but Kakashi wouldn't have said that unless he had a source that mentioned the said quote, but who is unknown.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
True, but Kakashi wouldn't have said that unless he had a source that mentioned the said quote, but who is unknown. Source being, that in present time Hyuuga was the strongest clan that came from the start of Konoha in Konoha in the present. Its only ever been used in the present tense never said they have always been the oldest.

Originally posted by Kento
Source being, that in present time Hyuuga was the strongest clan that came from the start of Konoha in Konoha in the present. Its only ever been used in the present tense never said they have always been the oldest. Of course it never said directly that the Hyuga were the oldest. but the Hyuuga being the first clan around will be a known fact after naruto & hinata **** some ****** and start the rebirth of the Uchiha.

Using a one off quote from Kakashi, who didn't even believe the Sage was a real person even though he'd just fought someone with the same eyes.

Of course you're only saying this as a way of arguing for NaruHina, which is fine I guess. Not big on the ship but shippers are weird anyway so hey.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
You have a point there. but it was confirmed that the Hyuga were around before the Uchiha and Senju. the quote The Hyuga clan is Konoha's Oldest and Greatest Bloodline confirms it which means that they were around before Rikidou Sennin.

a) The Hyuuga refer to themselves as such due to the fact that the Senju & the Uchiha are all but dispersed and/or extinct, and as such, no longer exist within Konoha. The Hyuuga could be the oldest bloodline to be a part of Konoha, but they would be far from the greatest if the Senju & the Uchiha were around and at full strength.

b) Konoha is not older than the Sage of the Six Paths, ergo your line of logic makes little to no sense.

c) Let us assume the Hyuuga are in fact an older clan than the Senju & the Uchiha, which is perfectly possible as far as I am concerned, as the Senju & the Uchiha founded Konoha merely 80 years before the storyline began. It's obvious that the system of clans existed long before Konoha was founded

It still does not mean they predated the Sage of the Six Paths, as the Sage lived during the time of the Ten-Tails, the being that was the source of chakra. In addition, apparently the Sage's older son was the progenitor for the Sharingan & the Byakugan, though meh on that last bit.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Using a one off quote from Kakashi, who didn't even believe the Sage was a real person even though he'd just fought someone with the same eyes.

Of course you're only saying this as a way of arguing for NaruHina, which is fine I guess. Not big on the ship but shippers are weird anyway so hey. Yeah but where he got the quote from is of question. someone mentioned to kakashi that the origins of the uchiha lie with the hyuga, and kakashi said the same thing later on. when it comes to NaruHina that is not arguable its a fact, that will make Rikidou's hyuga wife a known fact.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
a) The Hyuuga refer to themselves as such due to the fact that the Senju & the Uchiha are all but dispersed and/or extinct, and as such, no longer exist within Konoha. The Hyuuga could be the oldest bloodline to be a part of Konoha, but they would be far from the greatest if the Senju & the Uchiha were around and at full strength.

b) Konoha is not older than the Sage of the Six Paths, ergo your line of logic makes little to no sense.

c) Let us assume the Hyuuga are in fact an older clan than the Senju & the Uchiha, which is perfectly possible as far as I am concerned, as the Senju & the Uchiha founded Konoha merely 80 years before the storyline began. It's obvious that the system of clans existed long before Konoha was founded

It still does not mean they predated the Sage of the Six Paths, as the Sage lived during the time of the Ten-Tails, the being that was the source of chakra. In addition, apparently the Sage's older son was the progenitor for the Sharingan & the Byakugan, though meh on that last bit. First get something clear, i never said Konoha was nearly as old as the hermit. 2nd I kept mentioning Konoha due to the uchiha and senju connection to it. the Uchiha and Senju was brought into the ninja world and 1 was chosen to lead it. And so those 2 clans were supposed to be the oldest Bloodlines around, and yet when they finally stop killing each other and form a truce founding Konoha, they for some reason arent the oldest bloodline that Konoha has to offer (The Hyuga are) even though the Uchiha weren't completely dead to stop the bloodline, they still had 4 Survivors. The sage is not the starter of the Byakugan, his Rinnegan only shared a trait similar to it.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
First get something clear, i never said Konoha was nearly as old as the hermit. Get something clear. I never said you said Konoha was nearly as old as the Sage. However, you do seem to be using Konoha as a reference point in order to somehow take the Hyuuga from being older than the Uchiha/Senju to being older than the Sage of the Six Paths himself.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
the Uchiha and Senju was brought into the ninja world and 1 was chosen to lead it. And so those 2 clans were supposed to be the oldest Bloodlines around, and yet when they finally stop killing each other and form a truce founding Konoha, they for some reason arent the oldest bloodline that Konoha has to offer (The Hyuga are)

Are you assuming that the two sons of the Sage were actually part of the Uchiha & the Senju clans? They were not. They were the ancestors of the two clans. It is clearly stated that a lot of time had passed ("time passed...the blood thinned" and that certain descendants of the two sons still battled each other. The descendants in question being the Uchiha & the Senju. I guess this confusion is what makes you believe the Hyuuga were older than the Sage of the Six Paths.

Probably because the Hyuuga are quite possibly an older clan than the Uchiha & the Senju. Still does not make them older than the Sage of the Six Paths.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
even though the Uchiha weren't completely dead to stop the bloodline, they still had 4 Survivors.

No, the Uchiha had 1 unknown & 2 known survivors of the massacre, and all three of them were males. Ergo, the clan was effectively extinct after the massacre, as no pure-blooded members could be born; in addition, a clan is not made up of two individuals, but scores of individuals. One of the known survivors was a member of Akatsuki while the other eventually became a missing-nin. As far as the rest of Konoha was concerned, Obito was dead when the massacre occurred.
As for the Senju, the only known Senju member at the time was Tsunade, who wasn't even in Konoha when the massacre took place.
Also, it's telling that most if not all of the known Uchiha/Senju members are all more powerful than any known Hyuuga. Never mind it being explicitly stated that the Uchiha & the Senju were the strongest clans before the foundation of Konoha, by a good margin.

Again, the Hyuuga may very well be older than the Senju and the Uchiha, especially if Kakashi's line is true (which hasn't been confirmed or even referenced ever since it was stated). However, how the hell do you get that the Hyuuga are older than the Sage from Kakashi's & Hiashi's lines, when we know that the Sage is the first ninja, the Uchiha/Senju ancestors lived centuries before Konoha was formed, and the bloodline thinned before the birth of the Uchiha/Senju?


EDIT: Missed this part:
Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
The sage is not the starter of the Byakugan, his Rinnegan only shared a trait similar to it.

No proof to confirm either side of the argument as far as I know. On one hand, if the Byakugan did give rise to the Sharingan, then the Sage is, to put it in your own words, 'the starter of the Byakugan', as the Sage existed long before the Hyuuga.
On the other hand, since Tobi never bothered to mention the Byakugan when he talked about the Sage's tablet, it's possible the Byakugan isn't even related. But that's too weak IMO, and the Sage has numerous descendants. The Uchiha, the Senju, and the Uzumaki are merely the known ones.

Ergo:
Rinn'egan --> Older Son's Doujutsu --> Byakugan --> Sharingan.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Yeah but where he got the quote from is of question. someone mentioned to kakashi that the origins of the uchiha lie with the hyuga, and kakashi said the same thing later on. when it comes to NaruHina that is not arguable its a fact, that will make Rikidou's hyuga wife a known fact.

Someone likely told Kakashi that the Sage was a myth to. And lol shippers. I'm hoping Hinata gets killed again anyway so meh.

^ Pretty sure SWL thinks the two sons were actually part of the Uchiha/Senju clans, instead of being their ancestors.

Also, lol @ NaruHina. Hinata died in the Pain arc. We have a Zetsu clone running amok.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Get something clear. I never said you said Konoha was nearly as old as the Sage. However, you do seem to be using Konoha as a reference point in order to somehow take the Hyuuga from being older than the Uchiha/Senju to being older than the Sage of the Six Paths himself.



Are you assuming that the two sons of the Sage were actually part of the Uchiha & the Senju clans? They were not. They were the ancestors of the two clans. It is clearly stated that a lot of time had passed ("time passed...the blood thinned" and that certain descendants of the two sons still battled each other. The descendants in question being the Uchiha & the Senju. I guess this confusion is what makes you believe the Hyuuga were older than the Sage of the Six Paths.

Probably because the Hyuuga are quite possibly an older clan than the Uchiha & the Senju. Still does not make them older than the Sage of the Six Paths.



No, the Uchiha had 1 unknown & 2 known survivors of the massacre, and all three of them were males. Ergo, the clan was effectively extinct after the massacre, as no pure-blooded members could be born; in addition, a clan is not made up of two individuals, but scores of individuals. One of the known survivors was a member of Akatsuki while the other eventually became a missing-nin. As far as the rest of Konoha was concerned, Obito was dead when the massacre occurred.
As for the Senju, the only known Senju member at the time was Tsunade, who wasn't even in Konoha when the massacre took place.
Also, it's telling that most if not all of the known Uchiha/Senju members are all more powerful than any known Hyuuga. Never mind it being explicitly stated that the Uchiha & the Senju were the strongest clans before the foundation of Konoha, by a good margin.

Again, the Hyuuga may very well be older than the Senju and the Uchiha, especially if Kakashi's line is true (which hasn't been confirmed or even referenced ever since it was stated). However, how the hell do you get that the Hyuuga are older than the Sage from Kakashi's & Hiashi's lines, when we know that the Sage is the first ninja, the Uchiha/Senju ancestors lived centuries before Konoha was formed, and the bloodline thinned before the birth of the Uchiha/Senju?


EDIT: Missed this part:


No proof to confirm either side of the argument as far as I know. On one hand, if the Byakugan did give rise to the Sharingan, then the Sage is, to put it in your own words, 'the starter of the Byakugan', as the Sage existed long before the Hyuuga.
On the other hand, since Tobi never bothered to mention the Byakugan when he talked about the Sage's tablet, it's possible the Byakugan isn't even related. But that's too weak IMO, and the Sage has numerous descendants. The Uchiha, the Senju, and the Uzumaki are merely the known ones.

Ergo:
Rinn'egan --> Older Son's Doujutsu --> Byakugan --> Sharingan. You contradicted yourself. Hikuja Sennin is the Progenitor of the Uchiha Clan (Elder Brother) which means he was the first leader of the soon to be renamed Uchiha Clan. and no there were 4 survivors of the Uchiha's massacre.(Sasuke Uchiha) (Obito Uchiha) (Itachi Uchiha) (Idashi Uchiha) Either Madara's nephew will make his appearence during the 4th great ninja war after everyone has been incapacitated from fighting the Juubi and help Sasuke Uchiha in defeating Madara. Or he will enter Konoha after the war is over in search of the Namizaze's body and attempt to break Shinigami's soul seal on Minato Namikaze.



another thing is you don't know who's the strongest clan with certainty right now, you only say that because you witnessed the Sharingan's abilities and the Rinnegan's abilities for most of the series. the Secret of the Byakugan hasn't been revealed yet but instead its being undermined, but for a reason. that and Hinata still needs to awaken the 2nd Stage Of the Byakugan



And you say why did i come to the conclusion that the Hyuga have been around before the hermit? thats because Rikidou's wife was a Hyuga and the Mother of the 2 Sons. And now history is repeating itself with Naruto & Hinata.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Someone likely told Kakashi that the Sage was a myth to. And lol shippers. I'm hoping Hinata gets killed again anyway so meh. She didn't get killed the first time JACKASS

Thanks to a girl who is a far better character and far more deserving of Naruto-kuns love.

Actually joking with the last part shipping is barely worth mentioning. And I hope she gets grievously beaten for the fourth time if I have to be precise.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Thanks to a girl who is a far better character and far more deserving of Naruto-kuns love.

Actually joking with the last part shipping is barely worth mentioning. And I hope she gets grievously beaten for the third time if I have to be precise. But why do you hate Hinata so much? she has everything a man would want, that includes that Tsunade type body she has? and her personality will take a great change after the war is over (just for those people who's tired of her acting like a elementary school kid)

I dislike Hinata because she is one of the most boring underdeveloped characters for all the fanwank she gets. She herself is not bad in theory but Kishimoto doesn't write her very well and she regresses. This makes sense for a shy person I suppose but after a while I stop wondering when the cute little shy girl will come out of her shell and just want to leave her to her own devices.

On another note Sakura is one of my personal favorites and comparisons often have the two bumping heads when there really isn't much competition in my eyes.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
You contradicted yourself. Hikuja Sennin is the Progenitor of the Uchiha Clan (Elder Brother) which means he was the first leader of the soon to be renamed Uchiha Clan. and no there were 4 survivors of the Uchiha's massacre.(Sasuke Uchiha) (Obito Uchiha) (Itachi Uchiha) (Idashi Uchiha) Either Madara's nephew will make his appearence during the 4th great ninja war after everyone has been incapacitated from fighting the Juubi and help Sasuke Uchiha in defeating Madara. Or he will enter Konoha after the war is over in search of the Namizaze's body and attempt to break Shinigami's soul seal on Minato Namikaze.

I can't decide if I should laugh at or facepalm at this fan-fic crap of yours, and here I thought you were actually discussing Naruto canon all this time.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/200/043/1321320961002.jpg


Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
another thing is you don't know who's the strongest clan with certainty right now, you only say that because you witnessed the Sharingan's abilities and the Rinnegan's abilities for most of the series. the Secret of the Byakugan hasn't been revealed yet but instead its being undermined, but for a reason. that and Hinata still needs to awaken the 2nd Stage Of the Byakugan

Right now, the strongest clan is probably a tie between the Sarutobi clan, Nara clan, the Akimichi clan, and the Yamanaka clan, but that's really only because the Uchiha, Senju, & Uzumaki clans are non-existent. Pit any one of the strongest known ninja from any of these 7 mentioned clans, and they'd solo the Hyuuga.

The Hyuuga clan is SMALL-TIEM ma boi. Don't forget that.

Oh, and yeah, Hinata's probably going to have to implant Neji's microscopic balls into her eyes in order to awaken the 2nd Stage of the Byakugan.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
And you say why did i come to the conclusion that the Hyuga have been around before the hermit? thats because Rikidou's wife was a Hyuga and the Mother of the 2 Sons.

Actually no. Rikidou's wife was a 1 legged, 2 headed, 4 breasted platypus-panda with 8 pig toes, 16 pink wings, 32 porcupine quills on her ass, and 64 purple eyes.

Rikudo-sennin on the other hand had no wife. He created his sons.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Rikudo-sennin on the other hand had no wife. He created his sons.

That would be awesome. haermm

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I dislike Hinata because she is one of the most boring underdeveloped characters for all the fanwank she gets. She herself is not bad in theory but Kishimoto doesn't write her very well and she regresses. This makes sense for a shy person I suppose but after a while I stop wondering when the cute little shy girl will come out of her shell and just want to leave her to her own devices.

On another note Sakura is one of my personal favorites and comparisons often have the two bumping heads when there really isn't much competition in my eyes. Well you do have a point there, she will come out of her shell after the war is over. Naruto Movie 6 Road To The Ninja was a spoiler twords her personality. Hinata is the biggest pervert of them all. you wil soon understand exactly what im talking about. As for Sakura, She is as flat as a board and tight like plastic with a incredible hulk face & attitude, she makes me S I C K

Hinata a pervert...?

Road to Ninja takes place in an alternate universe where Kiba hates Akamaru and Shino hates bugs. Her being a pervert in that movie means she's the complete opposite in the real Naruto universe.

As for the physically attraction thing since I can't actually have sex with either of them that doesn't really matter. Besides beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that jazz.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I can't decide if I should laugh at or facepalm at this fan-fic crap of yours, and here I thought you were actually discussing Naruto canon all this time.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/200/043/1321320961002.jpg




Right now, the strongest clan is probably a tie between the Sarutobi clan, Nara clan, the Akimichi clan, and the Yamanaka clan, but that's really only because the Uchiha, Senju, & Uzumaki clans are non-existent. Pit any one of the strongest known ninja from any of these 7 mentioned clans, and they'd solo the Hyuuga.

The Hyuuga clan is SMALL-TIEM ma boi. Don't forget that.

Oh, and yeah, Hinata's probably going to have to implant Neji's microscopic balls into her eyes in order to awaken the 2nd Stage of the Byakugan.



Actually no. Rikidou's wife was a 1 legged, 2 headed, 4 breasted platypus-panda with 8 pig toes, 16 pink wings, 32 porcupine quills on her ass, and 64 purple eyes.

Rikudo-sennin on the other hand had no wife. He created his sons. You are so quick to call what i said fan fic when you don't have any proof of that whatsoever. because there aren't any fan fiction of Idashi Uchiha anywhere and if there were, those would be made to contradict me. And no Rikidou didnt create his sons he's not playing the role of god in Naruto he's playing the role of a very overpowered Adam. Im surprised you didnt realize that when he had brought and named all the Bijuus. (Animals) The Strongest clan physically is the Hyuga. Remember Masashi was inspired to make Naruto Mainly because of Dragonball Z. and you will see the Hyuga unleash their true power soon or in the 3rd series he's planning on making.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Road to Ninja takes place in an alternate universe where Kiba hates Akamaru and Shino hates bugs. Her being a pervert in that movie means she's the complete opposite in the real Naruto universe.

As for the physically attraction thing since I can't actually have sex with either of them that doesn't really matter. Besides beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that jazz. No i didn't mean to confuse i know its animation they aren't supposed to be real. its still Fun though to think outside the box. Hinata is not a pervert in Movie 6 she's a domintrix and a nympho manic. After the war is over in shippuden you are going to start seeing signs her perversions little by little, it will all start when she french kisses Naruto, his Reaction will be disgusted.

Truly theirs is a love to last then.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
That would be awesome. haermm

You never thought it could be true?

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Hinata a pervert...?

She has the Byakugan. ermmha

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
You are so quick to call what i said fan fic when you don't have any proof of that whatsoever. because there aren't any fan fiction of Idashi Uchiha anywhere and if there were, those would be made to contradict me. And no Rikidou didnt create his sons he's not playing the role of god in Naruto he's playing the role of a very overpowered Adam. Im surprised you didnt realize that when he had brought and named all the Bijuus. (Animals) The Strongest clan physically is the Hyuga. Remember Masashi was inspired to make Naruto Mainly because of Dragonball Z. and you will see the Hyuga unleash their true power soon or in the 3rd series he's planning on making.

My proof is the entire Naruto manga that has been written up until this point in time. Your fan-fic crap is not going to convince anyone with sufficient knowledge of Naruto and an ounce of logic in their brains. Not unless you can divine the future of Naruto.

Rikidou never had any sons. He had 128 overgrown hamsters with his 1 legged, 2 headed, 4 breasted platypus-panda wife, with 8 pig toes, 16 pink wings, 32 porcupine quills on her ass, and 64 purple eyes. He brought all of them from his local convenience store at a very nice bargain...two potatoes I believe it cost him for the whole set. He was very happy. He spent the rest of his life hoping another bargain like that would come along. Sadly, he was delusional.
Rikudō Sennin on the other hand had two sons, and he created them with the Rinnegan. Just like he created and named all the Bijuus. So no, he is more of a creator-deity than a man who names things in a garden.

Nope. Strongest clan physically is the Akimichi. Choji would take Hinata as his sex slave, and then proceed to stomp the Hyuuga out of existence, who are smaller than SMALL-TIEM.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
My proof is the entire Naruto manga that has been written up until this point in time. Your fan-fic crap is not going to convince anyone with sufficient knowledge of Naruto and an ounce of logic in their brains. Not unless you can divine the future of Naruto.

Rikidou never had any sons. He had 128 overgrown hamsters with his 1 legged, 2 headed, 4 breasted platypus-panda wife, with 8 pig toes, 16 pink wings, 32 porcupine quills on her ass, and 64 purple eyes. He brought all of them from his local convenience store at a very nice bargain...two potatoes I believe it cost him for the whole set. He was very happy. He spent the rest of his life hoping another bargain like that would come along. Sadly, he was delusional.
Rikudō Sennin on the other hand had two sons, and he created them with the Rinnegan. Just like he created and named all the Bijuus. So no, he is more of a creator-deity than a man who names things in a garden.

Nope. Strongest clan physically is the Akimichi. Choji would take Hinata as his sex slave, and then proceed to stomp the Hyuuga out of existence, who are smaller than SMALL-TIEM. Its no Fan Fiction if so then how about you try to find this "fan fiction" with (Idashi Uchiha's) name on it.

Thats "your" proof that you have read visually leading up to the point of Neji's Death and have no Knowledge to speak of beyond that point due to your mindset being stuck solely on literacy. Literacy is not anywhere near a bad thing, but it shouldn't be used for 90% of cases. because if used too much, then that person will only rely on literacy in order to make something out as factual, that lowers the independant perception of the person tremendously. I thought you would have known that, but obviously you didn't. And yet you say you have an ounce of Logic? laughable.

You really don't know what he's talking about when he says fanfiction.

It's fanfiction because you will never find the name Idashi Uchiha in the past chapters. Not a face, not his name, not even a hint to his existence. If you can prove otherwise then it's not just fanfiction. Until then he is entirely correct in calling it fanfiction.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
You really don't know what he's talking about when he says fanfiction.

It's fanfiction because you will never find the name Idashi Uchiha in the past chapters. Not a face, not his name, not even a hint to his existence. If you can prove otherwise then it's not just fanfiction. Until then he is entirely correct in calling it fanfiction. No its not Fan Fiction, because if it was it would have been searchable to find and legitimately confirm to be fan fiction as was said previously by Demonic Phoenix. (since we're being literate for this brief moment) he contradicted himself by making a accusation about something being fake, when he has no evidence to speak of in order to confirm it as false or fan fiction, even though he's been saying he has a ounce of logic.



The Hint to his existence is Naruto Shippuden episode 136. When Itachi was explaining the history of the uchiha to Sasuke, he shows the brothers Izuna and Madara Uchiha training with each other. In Genjustu form for sasuke to visibly witness the past events leading up to the uchiha's destruction. Over the time Madara and Izuna became corrupted with visions of power and using any attempts to achieve that visualized power, eventually leading up to the Night Madara unlocked the Mangekyou Sharingan unintentionally. the events leading up to madara achieving the Mangekyou Sharingan had motive, and that motive was Idoshen Uchiha the 2nd Brother of Madara and Father Of Idashi Uchiha. Before the night of the murder where madara unknowingly unlocked the Mangekyou, he found out that Idoshen Possessed the Black Flames as a Kekkei Genkai,



Thus Madara became infatuated with the Black Flames and more infatuated with discovering a way to possess the black flames for his own purposes and using any methods to achieve that visualized success, even using Idoshen's wife and newborn son as leverage. The Plan worked and Idoshen unwillingly volunteered to accompany Madara provided with the promise that Madara wouldn't kill his wife and newborn son Idashi. And in the end Madara killed Idoshen (a person close to him) in attempt to possess the Black Flames to a normal but failed, instead Madara alongside Izuna Uchiha awakened the Mangekyou Sharingan and the ability to use amaterasu. (Which is similar to the Kekkei Genkai that Idoshen possessed but it came with a cost) During the same night of the murder Madara had awakened a special Genjustu (Instead of the Kekkei Genkai black flames) a Genjustu that paralyzes an enemy within eye contact of the user,



Most Notably Seen during the 4th Great Ninja War when the Tsuchikage Onoki fell prey to the Genjustu, but was eventually freed.


Idashi's existence in Naruto Shippuden is proved to be a fact by Idoshen Uchiha being his father, and being the unrecognized Uchiha that Madara murdered on the night that he achieved the Mangekyou Sharingan. Idashi's existance is proved in Naruto Shippuden episode 136. The same episode where Madara took Izuna's eyes in order to achieve the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan.

Originally posted by Astner
http://i.imgur.com/Y3wfy.png. the senju clan predates the leaf, rikkudo predates ninja

one would assume the sage had parents and other people populated the earth so it's fair to say the hyuuga could have been a reputable clan of normal humans like the oda clan, but to say so for sure without kishi showing proof doesn't mean much

Originally posted by psycho gundam
the senju clan predates the leaf, rikkudo predates ninja

one would assume the sage had parents and other people populated the earth so it's fair to say the hyuuga could have been a reputable clan of normal humans like the oda clan, but to say so for sure without kishi showing proof doesn't mean much I can say for sure because of one reason. Rikudo Sennin Predates the NINJA WAY. NOT PEOPLE. it will be proven as a fact when Hinata confesses after the 4th Great Ninja war is over, and Naruto's acceptance to the confession will factify Rikudo's hyuga wife as history repeating itself.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
I can say for sure because of one reason. Rikudo Sennin Predates the NINJA WAY. NOT PEOPLE. it will be proven as a fact when Hinata confesses after the 4th Great Ninja war is over, and Naruto's acceptance to the confession will factify Rikudo's hyuga wife as history repeating itself.

your grasping for straws pretty heavily ever since you started this thread. he only thing you have to go on is fan theory, and not a popular one at that.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
your grasping for straws pretty heavily ever since you started this thread. he only thing you have to go on is fan theory, and not a popular one at that. It's not fan theory nor was it meant to be popular. Im just revealing the plotholes of the past and telling what will become of Naruto's future.

So, in other words, a fan theory.... Since nobody, including you can accurately predict the future, all you actually posess is speculation.

In fact, the only thing of actual substance you have, is Kakashi's word, and word of mouth from a fallible character in-universe is not treated as a fact unless it is substantiated.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
So, in other words, a fan theory.... Since nobody, including you can accurately predict the future, all you actually posess is speculation.

In fact, the only thing of actual substance you have, is Kakashi's word, and word of mouth from a fallible character in-universe is not treated as a fact unless it is substantiated. Yep thats your opinion. You don't know the definition of Fact. FACTS come in more forms then just literacy. You and everyone else better be lucky that i have a high tolerance for other individual opinionated contradiction.

no offense, but you might not even know what constitutes a fact. you may believe it with the entirety of your heart and soul, but it's still just speculation at the end of the day unless kishi confirms it since his manga doesn't really fallow real logic 100%.

3 major things that people speculated about the manga that were later proven true: 1 naruto taming the 9-tails, 2 minato being naruto's father, and 3 obito ending up actually being tobi. those were the three most prevalent theories that were later proven correct, iirc all the other things about the manga were pretty nebulous

Originally posted by psycho gundam
no offense, but you might not even know what constitutes a fact. you may believe it with the entirety of your heart and soul, but it's still just speculation at the end of the day unless kishi confirms it since his manga doesn't really fallow real logic 100%.

3 major things that people speculated about the manga that were later proven true: 1 naruto taming the 9-tails, 2 minato being naruto's father, and 3 obito ending up actually being tobi. those were the three most prevalent theories that were later proven correct, iirc all the other things about the manga were pretty nebulous I know that this and most other forum sites follow the sole code of literacy conserning the debates of fictional Series. You confuse (Known facts) with (Facts). There's a big difference between known facts and facts itself. The 3 theories that you mentioned were facts to begin with but unknowingly. (But whether they are known facts or facts itself is for the perception of the individual to uncover in hopes to achieve the actual verification) Even a physiologically challenged adult would have seen those 3 possibilities coming into actuality. And in the end the facts that were already told before the revelation will not become (Known) facts untill Masashi states it himself. Don't confuse the meanings to both of those words even if they are easily misinterpreted.

NUuzxjwXVXE

All that is going through my head right now.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
I know that this and most other forum sites follow the sole code of literacy conserning the debates of fictional Series. You confuse (Known facts) with (Facts). There's a big difference between known facts and facts itself. The 3 theories that you mentioned were facts to begin with but unknowingly. (But whether they are known facts or facts itself is for the perception of the individual to uncover in hopes to achieve the actual verification) Even a physiologically challenged adult would have seen those 3 possibilities coming into actuality. And in the end the facts that were already told before the revelation will not become (Known) facts untill Masashi states it himself. Don't confuse the meanings to both of those words even if they are easily misinterpreted.

Long story short: You're probably not familiar with how burdens of proof and rules of evidence work in debate.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Its no Fan Fiction if so then how about you try to find this "fan fiction" with (Idashi Uchiha's) name on it.

Idashi Uchiha is Fan-Fictional crap.


Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Thats "your" proof that you have read visually leading up to the point of Neji's Death and have no Knowledge to speak of beyond that point due to your mindset being stuck solely on literacy.

This is not called 'Knowledge'. It is called 'Speculation'. Use a dictionary every once in a while. Even an online dictionary will suffice for you.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Literacy is not anywhere near a bad thing, but it shouldn't be used for 90% of cases. because if used too much, then that person will only rely on literacy in order to make something out as factual, that lowers the independant perception of the person tremendously.

Some of the events that occur Naruto are hinted at in previous chapters by Kishimoto, some are not, and some do not make an inkling of sense (forum term is 'asspull').

'Idashi Uchiha' isn't even hinted at in Naruto, whatsoever. If he does make an appearance, it will be the worst asspull Kishimoto has ever made. Sasuke, while at Ground Zero of a massive explosion, pulling off a summoning jutsu, a genjutsu, and a Shunshin (i.e. massive asspull), makes more sense than the existence of this supposed nephew of Madara.
Though frankly, I wouldn't put it past Kishimoto to reveal such a character, or to hint at his existence. Dude has done some crazy shit these past 12 years.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
I thought you would have known that, but obviously you didn't. And yet you say you have an ounce of Logic? laughable.

B*tch please.
Claiming the lowly Hyuuga clan were around before the Sage of the Six Paths by using one single forgotten line by a fallible character (Kakashi) as supposed evidence, in addition to a prideful boast by a Hyuuga member who would get one-shotted by a Sasuke Uchiha who is banging Hinata while blind-folded, is the very definition of illogical.
As is taking that one single forgotten line as gospel, and wrongly assuming that the two brothers who were the ancestors of the Uchiha & Senju clans, were actually a part of the Uchiha & Senju clans.
As is stating that the Hyuuga clan is older than the Sage of the Six Paths as the Uchiha & Senju clans supposedly started during the era of the two brothers.
As is stating that the Sage of the Six Paths had a Hyuuga as his wife.

So yes, I am the one with at least an ounce of logic. The same cannot be said of you.



In summary:

1) You lost the Hyuuga argument. The Hyuuga were, are, and will always be, SMALL-TIEM.

2) You don't know the manga as well as you think you do.

3) You obviously do not know the difference between what is logical and what is illogical, much less the difference between fact and fiction. Claiming otherwise will not change this.

4) Your fan-fictional crap has been picked apart by multiple people, and on multiple boards. No one here will believe it, and no one here will ever believe it until Kishi hints at it in the manga, or you provide solid evidence as to how you know Idashi Uchiha exists, which so far, you have failed to do so, spectacularly.

5) This is a shonen manga, not a literary masterpiece. It does not warrant extreme scrutiny for anything, including foreshadowing.

6)
http://i.imgur.com/bJulZl.jpg

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
'Idashi Uchiha' isn't even hinted at in Naruto, whatsoever. If he does make an appearance, it will be the worst asspull Kishimoto has ever made. Sasuke, while at Ground Zero of a massive explosion, pulling off a summoning jutsu, a genjutsu, and a Shunshin (i.e. massive asspull), makes more sense than the existence of this supposed nephew of Madara.
Though frankly, I wouldn't put it past Kishimoto to reveal such a character, or to hint at his existence. Dude has done some crazy shit these past 12 years.
wtf? actually, i'm glad i know nothing of that

.....

...

phuck, had to read it

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Idashi Uchiha is the Ninja Known as the Shadow, he is the same age as Asuma Late 40's to early 50's. He is the Son of Idoshen Uchiha and Nephew of Madara Uchiha.He will Appear either During the 4th Great Ninja War to assist Sasuke Uchiha in Defeating Edo Tensi Uchiha Madara. or Appear Sometime after the War to break Shinigami's Curse on Minato Namikaze, Bringing Him Back to life with a Unidentified Spiritualization Justu. he is also is also the Bearer of Pyro The Pheniox Dragon. But thats Something to be Explained for Another time A.N.Y Q.U.E.S.T.I.O.N.S?

favorite part is underlined. I have a lot of questions, sir

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Yep thats your opinion. You don't know the definition of Fact. FACTS come in more forms then just literacy. You and everyone else better be lucky that i have a high tolerance for other individual opinionated contradiction.

Hey look, I don't care if you theories to your hearts content kid, but don't EVER treat your theories as canon facts until you have actual evidence.

Oh, and don't try to outline what I know or don't know kid, all that does is prove your an idiot.

If anything predates the Sage it would be the Samurai. If he was the founder of ninjutsu(or rather the manipulation of chakra) then it would make sense for wars at the time to be fought with plain ol' swords. In addition to that Hanzo implies that ninjutsu eventually replaced samurai teachings most every where.

But that time is really far in the past so meh.

Originally posted by Q99
Long story short: You're probably not familiar with how burdens of proof and rules of evidence work in debate. Long story short. This is not a debate in the real life court system. this is a debate on a forum website conserning a fictional series that is based on Adam. (Rikudo Sennin) and Eve. (Rikidou's Hyuga wife mother of the 2 sons) (In the later generations Hinata) In other words the would-be logic that you were tought in the clouded educational system does not apply here conserning the Naruto series, since naruto's logic highly contradict your mindset and most of what you were tought. ( which is why you can't use the perception you have left to uncover the future events nor the past plotholes in Naruto)

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Idashi Uchiha is Fan-Fictional crap.




This is not called 'Knowledge'. It is called 'Speculation'. Use a dictionary every once in a while. Even an online dictionary will suffice for you.



Some of the events that occur Naruto are hinted at in previous chapters by Kishimoto, some are not, and some do not make an inkling of sense (forum term is 'asspull').

'Idashi Uchiha' isn't even hinted at in Naruto, whatsoever. If he does make an appearance, it will be the worst asspull Kishimoto has ever made. Sasuke, while at Ground Zero of a massive explosion, pulling off a summoning jutsu, a genjutsu, and a Shunshin (i.e. massive asspull), makes more sense than the existence of this supposed nephew of Madara.
Though frankly, I wouldn't put it past Kishimoto to reveal such a character, or to hint at his existence. Dude has done some crazy shit these past 12 years.



B*tch please.
Claiming the lowly Hyuuga clan were around before the Sage of the Six Paths by using one single forgotten line by a fallible character (Kakashi) as supposed evidence, in addition to a prideful boast by a Hyuuga member who would get one-shotted by a Sasuke Uchiha who is banging Hinata while blind-folded, is the very definition of illogical.
As is taking that one single forgotten line as gospel, and wrongly assuming that the two brothers who were the ancestors of the Uchiha & Senju clans, were actually a part of the Uchiha & Senju clans.
As is stating that the Hyuuga clan is older than the Sage of the Six Paths as the Uchiha & Senju clans supposedly started during the era of the two brothers.
As is stating that the Sage of the Six Paths had a Hyuuga as his wife.

So yes, I am the one with at least an ounce of logic. The same cannot be said of you.



In summary:

1) You lost the Hyuuga argument. The Hyuuga were, are, and will always be, SMALL-TIEM.

2) You don't know the manga as well as you think you do.

3) You obviously do not know the difference between what is logical and what is illogical, much less the difference between fact and fiction. Claiming otherwise will not change this.

4) Your fan-fictional crap has been picked apart by multiple people, and on multiple boards. No one here will believe it, and no one here will ever believe it until Kishi hints at it in the manga, or you provide solid evidence as to how you know Idashi Uchiha exists, which so far, you have failed to do so, spectacularly.

5) This is a shonen manga, not a literary masterpiece. It does not warrant extreme scrutiny for anything, including foreshadowing.

6)
http://i.imgur.com/bJulZl.jpg In other words you still have no literate proof. That link you provided was not fanfiction but rather my words that lead to his name being revealed previously on another forum in order to find more of a reason to disagree. Fanfiction is actually what it means FANFICTION, there's a section for that on every forum site for a reason, the same reason why i didn't go there. Because its not fanfiction and you still have no proof to speak of to verify legitimately that the (Idashi Uchiha) is "fanfiction" but rather me revealing his name on another forum. In summary. I revealed the plothole of the Sage Of The 6 Paths Era only to find people disagreeing for their own reasons. And when it comes to (logic) you have no clue as to what logic means, but rather got taught the self proclaimed meaning by human prognosticators (Science) which is surrounded by hypothesis with little evidence to show for. The evidence conserning Idashi Uchiha's existence is proven by Idoshen Uchiha being his father. and proven by Idoshen Uchiha being the unidentified Uchiha that madara murdered on the night he awakened the Mangekyou Sharingan. (Naruto Shippuden Episode 136)

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hey look, I don't care if you theories to your hearts content kid, but don't EVER treat your theories as canon facts until you have actual evidence.

Oh, and don't try to outline what I know or don't know kid, all that does is prove your an idiot. Oh now you are calling me an idiot and a kid eh? (even though you don't know the full meaning as to what theory nor fact means) (And yet you use those words so much when you have a disagreement conserning something) ha! pathetic. The meaning to the word theory has been largely misinterpreted by you when the only things i have been stating are Facts.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
wtf? actually, i'm glad i know nothing of that

.....

...

phuck, had to read it



favorite part is underlined. I have a lot of questions, sir Do you have alot of Questions? or alot of Insults?

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Oh now you are calling me an idiot and a kid eh? (even though you don't know the full meaning as to what theory nor fact means) (And yet you use those words so much when you have a disagreement conserning something) ha! pathetic. The meaning to the word theory has been largely misinterpreted by you when the only things i have been stating are Facts.
Theory - an unproved assumption

So yea, you just have a theory. There is not one single basis for Hyuuga being older than The Great Sage. Hyuuga will never get that kinda storyline either to prove it. They may be the oldest clan in Konoha, but that's cause they marry within their clan too so, and because the oldest clans (Senju, and Uchiha) are all but dead. And they never said the oldest clan in the world, just of Konoha. If they ever said the world you may have had some valid point. And they use chakra based taijutsu. Their taijutsu doesn't work without chakra so they can't predate the founding of Chakra...

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Oh now you are calling me an idiot and a kid eh? (even though you don't know the full meaning as to what theory nor fact means) (And yet you use those words so much when you have a disagreement conserning something) ha! pathetic. The meaning to the word theory has been largely misinterpreted by you when the only things i have been stating are Facts.

I didn't call you an idiot, what I said was: "Oh, and don't try to outline what I know or don't know kid, all that does is prove your an idiot." Thats a far cry from me saying: "You ARE an idiot." And as for me calling you kid, your obviously far too precious about your age... Almost everyone in KMC is younger than I am, you'll forgive my assumption, Kid.

And once again, you are going to assume that you know what I know, and continue to brandish a false sense of security, and yet you have not a single iota of evidence at all. Debating is obviously not your strong suit, nor is manifesting evidence to turn a theory into a proven fact.

Definiotion of the word "theory".

Definition of the word "fact".

And as a bonus; Definition of the word "proof".

Read these, learn them well, and use them in the future, and do not attempt to posture with me when debating something you have not even rationalised adequately, I will mop the floor with your pithy non-replies every time.

And lets not forget that your entire reply to me is an Ad Hominem Fallacy

Originally posted by Kento
Theory - an unproved assumption

So yea, you just have a theory. There is not one single basis for Hyuuga being older than The Great Sage. Hyuuga will never get that kinda storyline either to prove it. They may be the oldest clan in Konoha, but that's cause they marry within their clan too so, and because the oldest clans (Senju, and Uchiha) are all but dead. And they never said the oldest clan in the world, just of Konoha. If they ever said the world you may have had some valid point. And they use chakra based taijutsu. Their taijutsu doesn't work without chakra so they can't predate the founding of Chakra... No the full meaning to theory is. When a statement has been said about something specifically, and there is no evidence backing it up in all forms. For example, if there isn't something explaining a oddity in any form of evidence then its considered a (theory) and those forms of evidence also includes.

Previous refferences to the said subject. (Metaphor) Someone explaining the confusing plot holes conserning something in specific with all of the pieces put together from a independent observational viewpoint. (Explanatory) And someone who has the ability to look and read for knowledge and then make a confirmation about specific judging from what he has seen or read. (Literate)


Those are all the forms of evidence. Evidence comes in. (Metaphorical) Evidence comes in. (Explanatory) And Evidence comes in. (Literacy) evidence dosen't just come in 1 form (Literacy) (As is overused to resolve the most simple and difficult of situations which includes arguements)


I used explanatory evidence conserning Idashi Uchiha's existence by using his father Idoshen as an example and proof, and that proof is that madara killed Idoshen (a person close to him) to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan alongside Izuna Uchiha. Naruto Shippuden Episode 136.

You confuse Rikudo for the Juubi. The Juubi was the first one with Chakra and the ultimate amount not Rikudo.

It was said that Rikudo preached the way of Chakra and its usage, Ninjustu & Genjustu. And since Rikudo was preaching that would mean that there were people there to hear his preaching. (Basically There were people around and before Rikudo's time that used Chakra for purposes but was not nearly as proficient with it and alot more smaller in number) For short back during Rikudo's time him preaching Chakra was similar to preaching word of god to the vast majority of atheist. (Preaching the Spirit itself) (Chakra) But in the Naruto Universe Rikudo's preaching reached the ears of the disbelievers and chakra became a known fact as a result. And not just a supposed belief that ignorant people contradict

So you can't in any way say that the Hyuga weren't around before and during the Sage Of Six Path's time, since his wife was a hyuga woman and the mother of the 2 sons. And now since everyone knows that Naruto is the next Sage Of The Six Paths history is repeating itself, with Naruto (The next Rikudo Sennin) and with Hinata the soon to be wife of the new Sage.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I didn't call you an idiot, what I said was: "Oh, and don't try to outline what I know or don't know kid, all that does is prove your an idiot." Thats a far cry from me saying: "You ARE an idiot." And as for me calling you kid, your obviously far too precious about your age... Almost everyone in KMC is younger than I am, you'll forgive my assumption, Kid.

And once again, you are going to assume that you know what I know, and continue to brandish a false sense of security, and yet you have not a single iota of evidence at all. Debating is obviously not your strong suit, nor is manifesting evidence to turn a theory into a proven fact.

Definiotion of the word "theory".

Definition of the word "fact".

And as a bonus; Definition of the word "proof".

Read these, learn them well, and use them in the future, and do not attempt to posture with me when debating something you have not even rationalised adequately, I will mop the floor with your pithy non-replies every time.

And lets not forget that your entire reply to me is an Ad Hominem Fallacy How about you read the full definition of what (evidence) and (theory) truly means in my post below yours. (I have already shown evidence in the form of explanatory) (Not in the form of literacy where even a scatterbrain could understand) since you need to read & link the definitions of the 2 words you use so oftenly and to also show me, that is truly a sign of age so i wouldn't doubt you if you told me you were ancient. And you with your would-be insults are enough to make me laugh, i've heard worse insults from 14 year olds. I guess you are right about your age. But the only thing i couldn't figure out is why is. Why is it that your body kept growing and not your brain(:?

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
No the full meaning to theory is. When a statement has been said about something specifically, and there is no evidence backing it up in all forms. For example, if there isn't something explaining a oddity in any form of evidence then its considered a (theory) and those forms of evidence also includes.

The thing here is that there IS no evidence supporting your explanation. Explanations on their own do not transform theory into fact.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Previous refferences to the said subject. (Metaphor) Someone explaining the confusing plot holes conserning something in specific with all of the pieces put together from a independent observational viewpoint. (Explanatory) And someone who has the ability to look and read for knowledge and then make a confirmation about specific judging from what he has seen or read. (Literate)

And here is where your argument falls apart. Cherry Picking Fallacy, Slippery Slope Fallacy, Genetic Fallacy, And Special Pleading Fallacy.

You are not exempt from the rules of debating, and scoring 4 logical fallacies in a row is a record for poor sportsmanship.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Those are all the forms of evidence. Evidence comes in. (Metaphorical) Evidence comes in. (Explanatory) And Evidence comes in. (Literacy) evidence dosen't just come in 1 form (Literacy) (As is overused to resolve the most simple and difficult of situations which includes arguements)

No, an explanation without logical construct is not passed as explanatory theory, nevermind expolanatory fact.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
I used explanatory evidence conserning Idashi Uchiha's existence by using his father Idoshen as an example and proof, and that proof is that madara killed Idoshen (a person close to him) to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan alongside Izuna Uchiha. Naruto Shippuden Episode 136.

That in itself is a Genetic Fallacy argument, not to mention that this has absolutely nothing to do with why the Hyuuga could possibly predate the Sage of Six Paths, considering Madara himself is several hundred to several thousand generations after the SOSP's passing...

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
You confuse Rikudo for the Juubi. The Juubi was the first one with Chakra and the ultimate amount not Rikudo.

Chakra is the compination of two primal energy forces that give lifeforms their life force. The Juubi is not the actual source of Chakra, but raw life energy (Both spiritual and physical, the components that make Chakra.) But, it was the Sage that was the first to create Chakra in this way, and molded it into techniques that formed the basis for all ninja arts and fighting styles, which eventually lead to the modern incarnations we see in the mangas and anime today, which happen to include the Gentle Fist style of the Hyuuga clan.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
It was said that Rikudo preached the way of Chakra and its usage, Ninjustu & Genjustu. And since Rikudo was preaching that would mean that there were people there to hear his preaching. (Basically There were people around and before Rikudo's time that used Chakra for purposes but was not nearly as proficient with it and alot more smaller in number) For short back during Rikudo's time him preaching Chakra was similar to preaching word of god to the vast majority of atheist. (Preaching the Spirit itself) (Chakra) But in the Naruto Universe Rikudo's preaching reached the ears of the disbelievers and chakra became a known fact as a result. And not just a supposed belief that ignorant people contradict

Nobody claimed that the Riduko was the first human.... I'm pretty sure that the world was a chaotic place filled with near endless warfare, and thats why the Juubi became enraged.

What we are saying is that the Riduko had learned how to utilise the primal forces and mould them into Chakra, thereby inventing the modern definition of the term, and was the originator of the method. before that, people had no way to use their own energies like they do now with modern Jutsu.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
So you can't in any way say that the Hyuga weren't around before and during the Sage Of Six Path's time, since his wife was a hyuga woman and the mother of the 2 sons. And now since everyone knows that Naruto is the next Sage Of The Six Paths history is repeating itself, with Naruto (The next Rikudo Sennin) and with Hinata the soon to be wife of the new Sage.

Irrelevant Conclusion Fallacy. This entire line of thought is in no way related to your previous statement. Therefore it is not evidence for the conclusion your reaching for. And you STILL have yet to explain then how the Hyuuga learned the Gentle Fist style before the Riduko developed the method of creating and manipulating Chakra, never mind the fact that the Byakugan is specifically designed to trak Chakra, how the heck was it developed... BEFORE Chackra was even a thing?

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
How about you read the full definition of what (evidence) and (theory) truly means in my post below yours. (I have already shown evidence in the form of explanatory) (Not in the form of literacy where even a scatterbrain could understand) since you need to read & link the definitions of the 2 words you use so oftenly and to also show me, that is truly a sign of age so i wouldn't doubt you if you told me you were ancient. And you with your would-be insults are enough to make me laugh, i've heard worse insults from 14 year olds. I guess you are right about your age. But the only thing i couldn't figure out is why is. Why is it that your body kept growing and not your brain(:?

AAAAAnd we have a 2nd Ad Hominem Fallacy to your account... Along with a Reification Fallacy that covers the entire thread...

I never intended to insult you originally, I was simply pointing out that the theory your trying to push here is not a fact until it is substantiated, to which you ran off of a tangent wildly and started hurling half-assed insults and pretending you know more about debating on KMC than someone who has been here on KMC for 8 years...

And because of your retarded reply here, you can consider yourself reported for flame baiting.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The thing here is that there IS no evidence supporting your explanation. Explanations on their own do not transform theory into fact.



And here is where your argument falls apart. Cherry Picking Fallacy, Slippery Slope Fallacy, Genetic Fallacy, And Special Pleading Fallacy.

You are not exempt from the rules of debating, and scoring 4 logical fallacies in a row is a record for poor sportsmanship.



No, an explanation without logical construct is not passed as explanatory theory, nevermind expolanatory fact.



That in itself is a Genetic Fallacy argument, not to mention that this has absolutely nothing to do with why the Hyuuga could possibly predate the Sage of Six Paths, considering Madara himself is several hundred to several thousand generations after the SOSP's passing...



Chakra is the compination of two primal energy forces that give lifeforms their life force. The Juubi is not the actual source of Chakra, but raw life energy (Both spiritual and physical, the components that make Chakra.) But, it was the Sage that was the first to create Chakra in this way, and molded it into techniques that formed the basis for all ninja arts and fighting styles, which eventually lead to the modern incarnations we see in the mangas and anime today, which happen to include the Gentle Fist style of the Hyuuga clan.



Nobody claimed that the Riduko was the first human.... I'm pretty sure that the world was a chaotic place filled with near endless warfare, and thats why the Juubi became enraged.

What we are saying is that the Riduko had learned how to utilise the primal forces and mould them into Chakra, thereby inventing the modern definition of the term, and was the originator of the method. before that, people had no way to use their own energies like they do now with modern Jutsu.



Irrelevant Conclusion Fallacy. This entire line of thought is in no way related to your previous statement. Therefore it is not evidence for the conclusion your reaching for. And you STILL have yet to explain then how the Hyuuga learned the Gentle Fist style before the Riduko developed the method of creating and manipulating Chakra, never mind the fact that the Byakugan is specifically designed to trak Chakra, how the heck was it developed... BEFORE Chackra was even a thing?



AAAAAnd we have a 2nd Ad Hominem Fallacy to your account... Along with a Reification Fallacy that covers the entire thread...

I never intended to insult you originally, I was simply pointing out that the theory your trying to push here is not a fact until it is substantiated, to which you ran off of a tangent wildly and started hurling half-assed insults and pretending you know more about debating on KMC than someone who has been here on KMC for 8 years...

And because of your retarded reply here, you can consider yourself reported for flame baiting. Im familiar with how debates work now these days, the educational system has done a good job in clouding the minds of people. I can consider my self reported for flame baiting? you provoked an arguement about me not having evidence when i did, and adding your little smart remarks on the side. But you have your opinions. but i will tell you this, if you manipulate this site's administration team. i will be forced to inact full override. But PLEASE try not to put your smart remarks in, while provoking someone before you do something very stupid

But back to the subject. I already had evidence conserning the Hyuga being before the Sage and Hinata will be proof of that after Naruto accepts her confession. But even then people will disagree for their own reasons.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/gifs/PANDAAAAA.gif

If we could all put our dicks away, please.

There's no need for baiting or flaming, guys.

Let's all calm down, m'kay?

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Im familiar with how debates work now these days, the educational system has done a good job in clouding the minds of people. I can consider my self reported for flame baiting? you provoked an arguement about me not having evidence when i did, and adding your little smart remarks on the side. But you have your opinions. but i will tell you this, if you manipulate this site's administration team. i will be forced to inact full override. But PLEASE try not to put your smart remarks in, while provoking someone before you do something very stupid

I did no such thing. What I did was point out that you have a fan theory, not an actual fact, to which you incorrectly assumed I didn't know the meaning of the terms. That in and of itself is flaming strictly speaking. You provoked, not I. And nothing I said could have been interpreted as a smart assed remark unless you are incredibly defensive.

You've brought up examples of characters not mentioned anywhere in the canon manga or the anime as an attempt to solidify your hypothesis in canon, which is not accurate. So the explanatory thesis you've conjured up is not a canon fact unless and until it is corroborated by actual in-manga quotes. Your refference to e139 of Shippuden not withstanding. You have provided no scans, aside from Kakashi's remark.

How the heck else is everyone supposed to take this? This is a serious question, because, and I'm going to be honest here, you came in out of nowhere, started spouting this around, and expecting eveyione to suddenly and spontaneously agree with you, and you ran the debate in circles when few actually did...

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
But back to the subject. I already had evidence conserning the Hyuga being before the Sage and Hinata will be proof of that after Naruto accepts her confession. But even then people will disagree for their own reasons.

Circular reasoning fallacy. Even if Naruto did accept Hinata's affections, that is still not proof that Ridoku's wife is a Hyuuga ancestor.

===========================================

Look, I can invent a hypothesis that you can use that actuially has more support in canon than what you have used here if you want.

Here, try this on for size and see if it fits: Ridoku's wife may very well be a Hyuuga. We obviously cannot prove this beyond all reasonable doubt, but the line that the Sharingan is a mutated off-shoot of the Byakugan stated by Kakashi could have it's roots here too, because the mixture of the byakugan and the Rinnegan may result in the Sharingan's creation.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110803151102/naruto/images/thumb/a/a5/D%C5%8Djutsu_Uchiha_Ancestor.svg/300px-D%C5%8Djutsu_Uchiha_Ancestor.svg.png

The Uchiha ancestor's dojutsu actually shares traits of all 3 of the infamous dojutsu, the near circular spiral is obviously influenced by the Rinnegan's circular pattern, whule retaining the spiraling swirls of a Mangekyou Sharingan, yet it's colour is that of the Byakugan.

However, we do not know whom thys hyuuga woman is, nor can we factor in why this should matter in the slightest, as the hyuuga obviously still has pure blodline members that have no relation to the Ridoku.

See here? i just invented a thesis that stands on less shaky ground and does not need to introduce more than one theoretical character to substantiate. Yet I do not toute this thesis of mine as proven canon fact, because outside of explanation, I cannot prove she even existed. Your these, which stands on less stable ground by introducing more unknwn elements than mine does, cannot be taken at face value of an explanantion either, no matter how rational it seems to you.

And on top of all that, you never addressed any point I raised at all, thus making your reply a non-answer. We accept your concession.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I did no such thing. What I did was point out that you have a fan theory, not an actual fact, to which you incorrectly assumed I didn't know the meaning of the terms. That in and of itself is flaming strictly speaking. You provoked, not I. And nothing I said could have been interpreted as a smart assed remark unless you are incredibly defensive.

You've brought up examples of characters not mentioned anywhere in the canon manga or the anime as an attempt to solidify your hypothesis in canon, which is not accurate. So the explanatory thesis you've conjured up is not a canon fact unless and until it is corroborated by actual in-manga quotes. Your refference to e139 of Shippuden not withstanding. You have provided no scans, aside from Kakashi's remark.

How the heck else is everyone supposed to take this? This is a serious question, because, and I'm going to be honest here, you came in out of nowhere, started spouting this around, and expecting eveyione to suddenly and spontaneously agree with you, and you ran the debate in circles when few actually did...



Circular reasoning fallacy. Even if Naruto did accept Hinata's affections, that is still not proof that Ridoku's wife is a Hyuuga ancestor.

===========================================

Look, I can invent a hypothesis that you can use that actuially has more support in canon than what you have used here if you want.

Here, try this on for size and see if it fits: Ridoku's wife may very well be a Hyuuga. We obviously cannot prove this beyond all reasonable doubt, but the line that the Sharingan is a mutated off-shoot of the Byakugan stated by Kakashi could have it's roots here too, because the mixture of the byakugan and the Rinnegan may result in the Sharingan's creation.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110803151102/naruto/images/thumb/a/a5/D%C5%8Djutsu_Uchiha_Ancestor.svg/300px-D%C5%8Djutsu_Uchiha_Ancestor.svg.png

The Uchiha ancestor's dojutsu actually shares traits of all 3 of the infamous dojutsu, the near circular spiral is obviously influenced by the Rinnegan's circular pattern, whule retaining the spiraling swirls of a Mangekyou Sharingan, yet it's colour is that of the Byakugan.

However, we do not know whom thys hyuuga woman is, nor can we factor in why this should matter in the slightest, as the hyuuga obviously still has pure blodline members that have no relation to the Ridoku.

See here? i just invented a thesis that stands on less shaky ground and does not need to introduce more than one theoretical character to substantiate. Yet I do not toute this thesis of mine as proven canon fact, because outside of explanation, I cannot prove she even existed. Your these, which stands on less stable ground by introducing more unknwn elements than mine does, cannot be taken at face value of an explanantion either, no matter how rational it seems to you.

And on top of all that, you never addressed any point I raised at all, thus making your reply a non-answer. We accept your concession. OF COURSE you can't prove it because it wasn't shown nor said LITERALLY, and you go solely by literacy as a way of confirming evidence and undisclosed events. No you did put provocative insults on the sides of what you were saying and claiming it to be logic as a way of covering it. (you are not slick) i said that Rikudo's wife is a hyuga because it was already said that the origins of the Uchiha derived from the Hyuga, meaning that the first Uchiha Hikuja Sennin was brought into the world by a hyuga woman, a.k.a common sense. Another thing is Kishimoto was never going to confirm that Rikudo's wife was a hyuga, because of so then that would have counted as a spoiler twords Naruto & Hinata soon to be relationship, and Kishimoto is known for confusing people with puzzles more then he is known for giving enlightenment. Thats why he didn't say anything conserning Rikudo's Hyuga wife, to keep people debating about who naruto was going to be with. and to prevent altering the romantic part of naruto's storyline.


And now since Naruto & Hinata are together, that proves that Rikudo Sennin had a Hyuga wife and history repeated itself with Naruto being the new Sage and Hinata being the source for new birth or rebirth of the Uchiha clan. This supposed arguement is closed i was right and everyone else (including) you were wrong.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
OF COURSE you can't prove it because it wasn't shown nor said LITERALLY, and you go solely by literacy as a way of confirming evidence and undisclosed events. No you did put provocative insults on the sides of what you were saying and claiming it to be logic as a way of covering it. (you are not slick) i said that Rikudo's wife is a hyuga because it was already said that the origins of the Uchiha derived from the Hyuga, meaning that the first Uchiha Hikuja Sennin was brought into the world by a hyuga woman, a.k.a common sense. Another thing is Kishimoto was never going to confirm that Rikudo's wife was a hyuga, because of so then that would have counted as a spoiler twords Naruto & Hinata soon to be relationship, and Kishimoto is known for confusing people with puzzles more then he is known for giving enlightenment. Thats why he didn't say anything conserning Rikudo's Hyuga wife, to keep people debating about who naruto was going to be with. and to prevent altering the romantic part of naruto's storyline.

Ok, I'm going to break this down, as easily as I possibly can... because you are simply not getting it....

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
OF COURSE you can't prove it because it wasn't shown nor said LITERALLY, and you go solely by literacy as a way of confirming evidence and undisclosed events.

Because the fictional peice in question (IE: The Naruto manga) IS literacy based (IE: as in you Read it), therein literally lies your problem. All the evidence comes from the said literacy peice. You can fabricate theories all day my friend, there is no shame in this, fanfic writers do this all the time. But unless your theory is backed up beyond all reasonable doubt within the manga, then you literally only posess a theory that is non-canon. I'm sorry, but no amount of wordplay you can summon is going to change the burden of proof that is enforced in every debating forum on the net.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
No you did put provocative insults on the sides of what you were saying and claiming it to be logic as a way of covering it. (you are not slick)

No, and I'm not intendingn to be slick, I'm being blunt, up front, and honest. I don't require deception to bat away this kind of fallacy riddled debate your farting into existance. If your taking anything I have said (And I have not directly insulted you, only your non-argument, nice try) as provocative, then perhaps you should re-examine your theory before attempting to cover up it's deficiencies in fallacies.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
i said that Rikudo's wife is a hyuga because it was already said that the origins of the Uchiha derived from the Hyuga, meaning that the first Uchiha Hikuja Sennin was brought into the world by a hyuga woman, a.k.a common sense.

Your relying on a hyperbolic statement from a fallible character, and you've even got the context wrong.... Kakashi was solely reffering to Konoha with that line, not the whole planet...

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Another thing is Kishimoto was never going to confirm that Rikudo's wife was a hyuga, because of so then that would have counted as a spoiler twords Naruto & Hinata soon to be relationship, and Kishimoto is known for confusing people with puzzles more then he is known for giving enlightenment. Thats why he didn't say anything conserning Rikudo's Hyuga wife, to keep people debating about who naruto was going to be with. and to prevent altering the romantic part of naruto's storyline.

Circular logic again, your argument above this one would require revealing that right away wouldn't it... You can't have it both ways SWL.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
And now since Naruto & Hinata are together, that proves that Rikudo Sennin had a Hyuga wife and history repeated itself with Naruto being the new Sage and Hinata being the source for new birth or rebirth of the Uchiha clan. This supposed arguement is closed i was right and everyone else (including) you were wrong.

That does NOT prove jack shit. Genetic fallacy again. The only thing proven is that Naruto gripped Hinata's hand, and as I said earlier, even if he did decide to date, engage, wed and have children with Hinata, that in no way proves that the Ridoku had a Hyuuga wife. it's 2 seperate and unconnected events.

Besides, Naruto still lacks the Rinnegan required to make your theory work.

I am appaled that it took you 3 weeks just to merely come bak in here and argue what basically amounts to a big "NO U!!!111!!1" at me...

Oh, SWL is back?


Anyway, yea, what DS Zero said.

I don't even care if this is true. Hyuga is the most interesting clan IMO. A waste us what they did to Neji

Well, it would seem that the Byakugan predated the Great Sage so, yes, OP was correct in a way.

How does it even work with chakra existing? And if not for activation, would it only be used for the 360 vision?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, it would seem that the Byakugan predated the Great Sage so, yes, OP was correct in a way.

The Byakugan predated the Sage, but we have no concrete evidence that the Hyuga clan itself predated the Sage.

I really wish Kishi would at least elaborate on how the Byakugan further relates to the Sage and how it & the Hyuga clan came to be, but I guess we'll have to wait until Kaguya reappears.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The Byakugan predated the Sage, but we have no concrete evidence that the Hyuga clan itself predated the Sage.

I really wish Kishi would at least elaborate on how the Byakugan further relates to the Sage and how it & the Hyuga clan came to be, but I guess we'll have to wait until Kaguya reappears.

I cannot disagree with anything in your post.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, it would seem that the Byakugan predated the Great Sage so, yes, OP was correct in a way.

No, his entire premise was that the Sage wedded a Hyuuga Wife. He said nothing about Kaguya, because she was not even thought of 2 years ago.

Besides, there is no evidence Kaguya is a Hyuuga either. She came from a distant land "outside" the Elemental Nations, and there was no other information regarding her history or bloodlines or ancestry or anything else.

If SWL had said that the Byakugan predated the Sage or the Rinnegan, then he would have been correct, as it stands, no, SWL is still incorrect.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, his entire premise was that the Sage wedded a Hyuuga Wife. He said nothing about Kaguya, because she was not even thought of 2 years ago.

Besides, there is no evidence Kaguya is a Hyuuga either. She came from a distant land "outside" the Elemental Nations, and there was no other information regarding her history or bloodlines or ancestry or anything else.

If SWL had said that the Byakugan predated the Sage or the Rinnegan, then he would have been correct, as it stands, no, SWL is still incorrect.

I didn't read the OP, only the title which says: "The Hyuga Clan predated Rikidou Sennin" which is partially true: it was just the byakugan that predated the Great Sage.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I didn't read the OP, only the title which says: "The Hyuga Clan predated Rikidou Sennin" which is partially true: it was just the byakugan that predated the Great Sage.

But it is not so, Kaguya, the only known person to possess the Byakugan from a time before the Sage, was not a Hyuuga.

How does this fact prove SWL's claim true? It does not. In any way.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
But it is not so, Kaguya, the only known person to possess the Byakugan from a time before the Sage, was not a Hyuuga.

How does this fact prove SWL's claim true? It does not. In any way.

Read my post, again:

Originally posted by dadudemon
I didn't read the OP, only the title which says: "The Hyuga Clan predated Rikidou Sennin" which is partially true: it was just the byakugan that predated the Great Sage.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, it would seem that the Byakugan predated the Great Sage so, yes, OP was correct in a way. that deserves an unbanning i would think Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
But it is not so, Kaguya, the only known person to possess the Byakugan from a time before the Sage, was not a Hyuuga.

How does this fact prove SWL's claim true? It does not. In any way. maybe one of her husbands was a hyuuga? she carries the traits so i mean...

Originally posted by psycho gundam
that deserves an unbanning i would think maybe one of her husbands was a hyuuga? she carries the traits so i mean...

It is still an assumption. I don't know about anyone else, but I never read anything about the Hyuuga anywhere in Kaguya's reveal

mangekyou byakugan in the works? lol jk

So does anyone think there will be a arc regarding the hyuuga clan when this war is over?

Originally posted by Zamiel
So does anyone think there will be a arc regarding the hyuuga clan when this war is over?

nah its over for the hyuga clan. kishi just dropped the ball on them and a slew of other opportunities to make this series even better

Originally posted by chasedown
nah its over for the hyuga clan. kishi just dropped the ball on them and a slew of other opportunities to make this series even better

Then why give Kaguya the byakugan?

Originally posted by chasedown
nah its over for the hyuga clan. kishi just dropped the ball on them and a slew of other opportunities to make this series even better

Originally posted by Zamiel
So does anyone think there will be a arc regarding the hyuuga clan when this war is over? lol no

kishi making kaguya have the byakugan was probably the biggest and last nod he will give them