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Team kage:
Hashirama
Onoki
Third raikage
Second mizukage
Gaara

Gauntlet:
Scenario 1: baroque works
Scenario 2: CP9
Scenario 3: first half of the gotei 13
Scenario 4: second half of the gotei 13(no yama)
Scenario 5: admirals

Define 'first' and 'second' half. Like, divisions 1-6 and then 7-13? Including or not including defectors?


Scenarios 1 and 2 are easy in any case.

Originally posted by Q99
Define 'first' and 'second' half. Like, divisions 1-6 and then 7-13? Including or not including defectors?


Scenarios 1 and 2 are easy in any case.

1-6 and 7-13
Now I remember how messed up the gotei 13 are.
Okay so take aizen. gin and tousen out. And the cap commander won't be in it.

So the first half will be:
Mayuri
Unohana
Hitsuguya
Kommamaru
Kenpachi

Sceond half will be:
Ukitake
Shunsui
Soi fon
Byakuya

Alright, I think they can handle the first half of the gotei just fine. Hashirama's a megahealer, so Mayuri's poison isn't too useful. Komamaru's a really poor opponent for a dust user too, Onoki can deal with him solidly. Onoki'll be good against Kenny as well. I think Hitsuguya's ice is likely to have trouble with 3rd Raikage's black lightning that'll conduct through it, too. Unohana's the only real X factor, but we don't really know what she can do and there's enough counter points that odds are high she can be managed.


Second half, that's trickier, Ukitake and Shunsui are real powerhouses, and even the more junior members are speedsters, which is good. We are hampered somewhat by not knowing the bankai of the first two. Oh yea, and second mizukage's illusion can still mess them up. I'd say... the Kage may be able to win thanks to numbers, far superior teamwork (Bleach characters don't do teamwork, only duels), and Hashirama, but they'll take fairly heavy casualties.


The admirals... they're really tough, since sealing or Onoki are the only ways to beat them (except for Sengoku). Mizukage's genjutsu is a nice help, though, and Hashirama's done some major sealing. Not really sure on this one. Probably the Admirals.

Originally posted by Q99
Alright, I think they can handle the first half of the gotei just fine. Hashirama's a megahealer, so Mayuri's poison isn't too useful. Komamaru's a really poor opponent for a dust user too, Onoki can deal with him solidly. Onoki'll be good against Kenny as well. I think Hitsuguya's ice is likely to have trouble with 3rd Raikage's black lightning that'll conduct through it, too. Unohana's the only real X factor, but we don't really know what she can do and there's enough counter points that odds are high she can be managed.


Second half, that's trickier, Ukitake and Shunsui are real powerhouses, and even the more junior members are speedsters, which is good. We are hampered somewhat by not knowing the bankai of the first two. Oh yea, and second mizukage's illusion can still mess them up. I'd say... the Kage may be able to win thanks to numbers, far superior teamwork (Bleach characters don't do teamwork, only duels), and Hashirama, but they'll take fairly heavy casualties.


The admirals... they're really tough, since sealing or Onoki are the only ways to beat them (except for Sengoku). Mizukage's genjutsu is a nice help, though, and Hashirama's done some major sealing. Not really sure on this one. Probably the Admirals.

Agree with the first one and the second one I don't think it would be that hard when hashirama starts spamming tree flower world I don't think they would last long.

I think the deciding factor is kizaru as his element allows him really good intangiility as light can't be touched by most things then there is that speed. It would be hard. But I think they can get rid of aokiji for sure.

One major factor is if they know of the water weakness. Because both Hashirama and 2nd Mizukage can use that. But if they don't know, Hashirama'll use trees and 2nd Mizukage will use the water for explosions and the like.

If they get that knowledge, they can win.

So like, are you really under the impression that either have the water control feats to suggest their efforts won't be instantly evaporated by a magma fist from Akainu?

Originally posted by Q99
Hashirama's a megahealer, so Mayuri's poison isn't too useful.

Does his spiritual poison (remember, they are spiritual beings) work on corporeal beings?


Originally posted by Q99
Komamaru's a really poor opponent for a dust user too, Onoki can deal with him solidly.

Koma can throw enemies that are as tall as skyscrapers. Onoki can throw 350,000 ton objects at Koma: he'll be okay. Koma is also much faster than Onoki because he has Flash step. He also has a beastly bankai that makes him similar to Madara's ultimate Susano'o.

And we all saw how poorly all 5 kage's did against Madara's Susano'o.

Originally posted by Q99
Onoki'll be good against Kenny as well.

He'll be oneshotted, actually, by Kenpachi. Kenpachi solos. I am not joking. In fact, Kenpachi is enough to kill all kage before they have a chance to react or pull out much jutsu. Keep in mind that Ichigo, who at the time was stronger than all ninja minus Sage Mode Naruto/Jiraiya and Tsunade, wasn't even able to cut Kenpachi. The ninja won't even be able to injure Kenpachi, raw, besides the raikage's.


Originally posted by Q99
I think Hitsuguya's ice is likely to have trouble with 3rd Raikage's black lightning that'll conduct through it, too.

Not true: Hitsu solos, as well. He should be able to defeat all Kage even easier than Kenpachi because he's faster...I think.


Originally posted by Q99
Unohana's the only real X factor, but we don't really know what she can do and there's enough counter points that odds are high she can be managed.

She has no feats: she cannot be used.


Originally posted by Q99
Second half, that's trickier, Ukitake and Shunsui are real powerhouses, and even the more junior members are speedsters, which is good.

It gets ridiculous when you get to people like those two: just too damn fast.


Originally posted by Q99
Oh yea, and second mizukage's illusion can still mess them up.

Problem: they don't have brains to use genjutsu against. Another problem: they won't be able to see them.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd say... the Kage may be able to win thanks to numbers, far superior teamwork (Bleach characters don't do teamwork, only duels), and Hashirama, but they'll take fairly heavy casualties.

Except that they don't win at all any any scenario. Like I said, Kenpachi is enough to solo..much less any other captain that is better or faster.

Originally posted by NemeBro
So like, are you really under the impression that either have the water control feats to suggest their efforts won't be instantly evaporated by a magma fist from Akainu?

Considering this is "Maps get re-written when I fight," Hashirama, yes, he's got the scale/power for it.


Also, ninja. Get Akainu to magma fist something else, *then* submerge him in water. Once submerged he can't use his power to evap it.

If it was one on one it'd be a major problem, but don't forget genjutsu will be in play, as well as other dangers.






Onoki has dust disintegration, throwing heavy objects wasn't what I was talking about. Koma's one of the slowest captains and the ninja have body flicker. He and Kenpachi are at something of a speed disadvantage.

And while Komamaru's bankai is as *big* as Madara's perfect susano'o, it's got absolutely nothing on it in destructive power, with it's mountain-destroying cuts.


Madara's raw power (and Hashirama by extension) was well in excess of the large majority of Bleach captains. It's only Final Form Ichigo, Aizen, Yamamoto and the like who are in that range. I.e. people not here.


This isn't the old days, high Naruto characters outmatch Bleach captains in destructive feats.





Disintigration, sealing, repeated Jokey Boy blasts, and Hashirama's raw power, which is in excess of the Biju.




He might not be out-sped like Kenpachi and Komamura, but the ninja have a lot more power than him.

And I think his ice wouldn't be able to block lightning, since it conducts electricity.




Solution: Yes they do, the biology may be made of spiritual particles but they still have hearts, muscles, livers, other organs (which the mad scientist arrancar demonstrated).

Solution: Anyone was spiritual powers can see them and hurt them. Chakra is a half-spiritual power.

Komamaru going bankai would be the worst thing he could do. Onoki would dust release his bankai and kill him in a single hit.

Anyone else think Komamaru's bankai is just about the worst one?

Originally posted by Q99
Onoki has dust disintegration, throwing heavy objects wasn't what I was talking about. Koma's one of the slowest captains and the ninja have body flicker. He and Kenpachi are at something of a speed disadvantage.


Onoki can't hit what he can't see, however. Additionally, I'd still put Koma and Kenpachi as faster than any of the ninja's. Remember, I did the new, improved, and correct speed calcs that clearly showed how silly and waaaaaaaaay overestimated the speed feats for Naruto are. Additionally, Onoki does not have body-flicker. Lastly, Kenpachi was able to keep up with the "sonido-using" Nnoitra. All kage are at a speed disadvantage against Kenpachi...but no Koma.

Also, Koma is supposedly proficient at flash step.

Originally posted by Q99
And while Komamaru's bankai is as *big* as Madara's perfect susano'o, it's got absolutely nothing on it in destructive power, with it's mountain-destroying cuts.

Not mountain destroy, at all, actually.

Also, Sajin's Bankai strike is nuke level, at least (actual mountain busting):

http://youtu.be/LuLioez0788?t=5m46s

Notice all the houses getting destroyed in the blast.



Originally posted by Q99
Madara's raw power (and Hashirama by extension) was well in excess of the large majority of Bleach captains. It's only Final Form Ichigo, Aizen, Yamamoto and the like who are in that range. I.e. people not here.

Incorrect. The weakest captain exceeds both.


Originally posted by Q99
This isn't the old days, high Naruto characters outmatch Bleach captains in destructive feats.

Incorrect, still. You've been reading too much OBD. The weakest captain can easily kill any Kage or Kage level character including Nagato and his paths.





Originally posted by Q99
Disintigration,

Impossible to use against any of them.

Originally posted by Q99
sealing,

They'd actually have to seal them in order to seal them. Seems odd, right? But they tried against Madara who is slower than all captains and failed.

Originally posted by Q99
repeated Jokey Boy blasts,

Which would do nothing since Grand Cero's (which are more destructive than those blasts) do nothing.


Originally posted by Q99
and Hashirama's raw power, which is in excess of the Biju.

Incorrect. That is not true. You made that up. There are not feats.

Take your pick of one of the above.




Originally posted by Q99
He might not be out-sped like Kenpachi and Komamura, but the ninja have a lot more power than him.

He might be out-sped and the ninja have a lot less power than him, is what you meant.

Originally posted by Q99
And I think his ice wouldn't be able to block lightning, since it conducts electricity.

Incorrect: it'd have to be "salt-water" ice in order to conduct electricity.

It is water that has electrolytes dissolved in them that conducts electricity.




Originally posted by Q99
Solution: Yes they do, the biology may be made of spiritual particles but they still have hearts, muscles, livers, other organs (which the mad scientist arrancar demonstrated).

Prove that spirit matter operates under the same type of quantum physics as regular matter. Answer: impossible for you to do and it also proves you wrong since they are invisible without "spirit vision".


Originally posted by Q99
Solution: Anyone was spiritual powers can see them and hurt them. Chakra is a half-spiritual power.

Incorrect: The shinigami is invisible to everyone but the user (or a person touching the user). Proof that you're wrong.

I don't think I've seen those.

Most of the arguments I've seen for Naruto's speed being overestimated, btw, apply equally as much or more to Bleach and One Piece speed.

There's really no question that Naruto has shown some tremendous travel speed with kilometers covered in very short times. I'm not basing this off stuff like the Rasenshuriken calc or such, mind you, but in very obvious clearly visible speed feats like Gai and Kisame clearing an island for their fight quickly and being so fast that then when they fight the shockwave they make takes several seconds to arrive at the island.



He kept up just fine with Deidara, who can keep up with crazy-fast Sasuke.

All chunin and most genin have body flicker, let alone Kage. Some just have it better than others.



Nooo, I've been reading the Manga wherein the Naruto characters have gotten larger and larger feats as things progress (also I don't hang out on OBD). And Hashirama is far above Nagato.


What is it with people weirdly underestimating Naruto ninja and treating like it stacks up to the other series in the same way it did when it had like 1/10th the power it does now?

It seems like Naruto needs twice the feats to get half the credit. People just kinda... take it for granted that other fictions are faster when their own speed feats are often a lot shakier.





Unless you hit them with it.




It doesn't need to operate under the same quantum physics. We have seen spiritual and non-spiritual stuff interact easily.

And really when doing vs you gotta assume some general equivalence. Otherwise what you're really arguing isn't Bleach vs Naruto, but Bleach vs handicapped Naruto who you're fiating into not having their full powers.



The Naruto shinigami, yes.

However Bleach Shinigami are quite visible to humans with even minor spiritual powers and work very differently.


The Naruto shinigami is also totally intangible, while Bleach Shinigami will, in spirit forms, leave damage in physical objects if their body slams into it.

They're quite different.

I will add on the OBD thing- They're the source of most Bleach / One Piece calcs!

Originally posted by dadudemon
Does his spiritual poison (remember, they are spiritual beings) work on corporeal beings?




Koma can throw enemies that are as tall as skyscrapers. Onoki can throw 350,000 ton objects at Koma: he'll be okay. Koma is also much faster than Onoki because he has Flash step. He also has a beastly bankai that makes him similar to Madara's ultimate Susano'o.

And we all saw how poorly all 5 kage's did against Madara's Susano'o.



He'll be oneshotted, actually, by Kenpachi. Kenpachi solos. I am not joking. In fact, Kenpachi is enough to kill all kage before they have a chance to react or pull out much jutsu. Keep in mind that Ichigo, who at the time was stronger than all ninja minus Sage Mode Naruto/Jiraiya and Tsunade, wasn't even able to cut Kenpachi. The ninja won't even be able to injure Kenpachi, raw, besides the raikage's.




Not true: Hitsu solos, as well. He should be able to defeat all Kage even easier than Kenpachi because he's faster...I think.




She has no feats: she cannot be used.




It gets ridiculous when you get to people like those two: just too damn fast.




Problem: they don't have brains to use genjutsu against. Another problem: they won't be able to see them.



Except that they don't win at all any any scenario. Like I said, Kenpachi is enough to solo..much less any other captain that is better or faster.

Not sure.

Onoki I threw and island thanks to his techniques. Kommamaru strength is nothing. Kommamaru is the slowest captain and onoki has good speed. Using his bankai is a suicide wish as the damage from his bankai jinton inflicts will kill him. And don't compare that bankai to PS.

Um all the kage have great reaction speed and speed itself. He can easily be killed by a huge tree branch or jinton or the raikage. He can't even kill the mizukage.

No they actually are not at fast.

Stop underating them they would only have a lot of trouble with the admirals.

Originally posted by Q99
I will add on the OBD thing- They're the source of most Bleach / One Piece calcs!

Naruto has great calcs also.

Originally posted by Rikudo sennin
Naruto has great calcs also.

Dadudemon doesn't trust OBD calcs, though.


My point to him is if you don't trust OBD calcs, that takes out the calcs that he's using to try and judge the opponent's faster than Naruto. It's sorta all-or-nothing. If you don't want to use any OBD calcs, then you can't just toss out the one universe and keep the others. Toss 'em all out, and go by direct visuals (in which case Naruto does just fine), or use 'em all (in which case.. Naruto does just fine), but it has to be one or the other.

Originally posted by Q99
Dadudemon doesn't trust OBD calcs, though.


My point to him is if you don't trust OBD calcs, that takes out the calcs that he's using to try and judge the opponent's faster than Naruto. It's sorta all-or-nothing. If you don't want to use any OBD calcs, then you can't just toss out the one universe and keep the others. Toss 'em all out, and go by direct visuals (in which case Naruto does just fine), or use 'em all (in which case.. Naruto does just fine), but it has to be one or the other.

Exactly he is being a hypocrite with double standards to boot. People just hate that naruto has great calcs. And I trust obd calcs more than his considering how many people review those and still accept them in comparison to his. Example of this is when he thought the frs calc was wrong by using counters that were not only already destroyed but it also tells me he does not read the debates under the calcs where they have been already debated and accepted.

Nowhere here did dadudemon cite an OBD calculation.

How exactly could he be a hypocrite?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nowhere here did dadudemon cite an OBD calculation.

How exactly could he be a hypocrite?

Most of his over rating of bleach stems form the fact it has had years of good feats/calculations but for the last 2 or 3 years naruto has gotten much better and can make great calcs. He is beyond underrating naruto and overrating bleach when naruto actually has on par if not better calcs.

Nowhere did dadudemon cite a Bleach calculation.

Therefore, he can't be a hypocrite for denying OBD Naruto calcs.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyone else think Komamaru's bankai is just about the worst one?

Soifon's is pretty terrible.

Kensei's is horrible as well.

both have cool skikai abilities and then their bankai's are just lame ass destructive forces.

Originally posted by marwash22
Soifon's is pretty terrible.

Kensei's is horrible as well.

both have cool skikai abilities and then their bankai's are just lame ass destructive forces.

Soi Fon's, while not great, has the advantage of a totally different tactical use than the shikai, so she has wider options. Close in move vs ranged move.


Komamura's shikai seems to pack most of the functionality of his bankai anyway.





He didn't cite them specifically, but where do the ideas on OP and Bleach speeds come from? OBD.

(And I'll note I never citing OBD either but he was trying to decry Naruto on that basis too)


If we go by pure visuals, Naruto characters are faster than most OP ones (exception: Energy-type logia and their teleport move), faster than the slow Bleach characters, but slower than the fastest Bleach characters who rule the roost. Generally speaking.


I will also note that in the case of Bleach and One Piece both, the fast characters have been fought against by characters noticeably slower than the Naruto ones.


So the idea that Naruto characters'll be blitzed? It's not coming from the manga, any of the three manga.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nowhere did dadudemon cite a Bleach calculation.

Therefore, he can't be a hypocrite for denying OBD Naruto calcs.

What did you not get it is from the fact he think naruto would get blitzed and that idea came from the obd. Yet he does not believe in naruto calcs. He did not directly say it but that's where ti came from.

That idea does not come from the OBD, and I know for a fact that he doesn't use a single ODB calc, and refuses to so much as look at them.

Originally posted by NemeBro
That idea does not come from the OBD, and I know for a fact that he doesn't use a single ODB calc, and refuses to so much as look at them.

Well, I'll outright state that OBD is not where I get my views on speed from (they mainly focus on stuff like the Rasenshuriken calc, stuff like the Neji vs Kidomaru calc, and so on). But rather some very large and obvious speed feats wherein large distances are traveled in short times (Kisame and Gai by turtle island, Pain and Naruto chase where kilometers are traveled in short order in both cases), as well as high burst-speed has been shown (a couple Sasuke feats, some other main character flickers, as well as even a no-name chunin blinking across a room and grabbing someone halfway before the target can react).

Judging by which, higher end Naruto characters are faster than OP characters, slower than speedy Bleach characters, but faster than character who have successfully defended against and fought against said speedy Bleach characters.


Unless you get into the true crazy-fast characters like Final Ichigo, the blitzing conclusion doesn't hold up.