Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

On Ambria at Caleb's camp. Three rounds: Sabers, Force, and All-Out. Who wins each round and why?

Originally posted by jmoul
On Ambria at Caleb's camp. Three rounds: Sabers, Force, and All-Out. Who wins each round and why?

Zannah might could win with her Sith Magic ability known as Dark Side Tendrils. Dooku has no experience with that, but he may be able to destroy the projections with his lightsaber, especially on Ambria.

I'd say Dooku 7/10.

Bane tried to hit them with his lightsaber, and it just passed through the tendrils. So not sure how Dooku will be any different there

Zannah stomps.

Sabers, Dooku stomps hard.

Force, might give it to Zannah due to variety of feats.

All out, Dooku.

Even on Ambria, Zannah must exude both concentration and time to gather the energies necessary to summon either psychic attacks or "dark side tendrils" per her confrontation with Bane in Dynasty of Evil. When she finally does get the opportunity to unleash the former, Bane overcomes them through sheer force of will and hatred. I could see Dooku replicating this, given his training of Savage emphasized these two things, using pain to fuel hatred, which in turn fuels a Sith Lord's powers.

The tendrils present a much greater challenge. They only landed a blow because Bane was foolish enough to stand still and try to skewer one with his lightsaber. Otherwise, they were slow enough that even when he fell to the ground and nearly passed out from shock, he was able to evade a second strike. I submit that Dooku is comparable in speed to a semi-conscious, wounded Bane. We see in his various duels that he's fast enough to contend with the likes of Yoda as well as Ventress and Savage unarmed and in close quarters.

Keeping the tendrils animated, per the text, is exhausting for Zannah even on Ambria, leaving her body relatively vulnerable. Dooku, meanwhile, can replenish his energy reserves at whim (per ROTS). And as we see on Vjun, a dark side nexus also enhances Dooku's powers.

Zannah has the tools to win this, but it's too taxing for her to maintain even in a favorable setting. Dooku, despite his age, is simply a vastly more efficient fighter. His skills as a Force user are considerable and, without her esoteric trump cards, I don't think Zannah can beat him skill to skill.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
They only landed a blow because Bane was foolish enough to stand still and try to skewer one with his lightsaber.

Why do you think Dooku would be wiser? Arrogance is practically his defining character trait.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why do you think Dooku would be wiser? Arrogance is practically his defining character trait.

Who says he would be?
We're talking about a hypothetical match, I'm uninterested in scripting the fight.

What Bane did with the tentacles was no different inherently from what AOTC Anakin did when he recklessly charged Dooku in the hangar on Geonosis. We do not assume he would do something similar in these threads. Similarly, Revan was a retard of the highest order, but we don't assume he would behave as foolishly as he did in his fight with Vitiate. The examples go on and on: we don't expect that Sidious, in a moment of advantage, would forgo his beneficial position simply to gloat in the face of an incapacitated adversary.

Dooku is smart and fast enough to evade the tentacles. The only way they'd land a blow is if he commits a specific blunder.

We assess situations based on skills and capability, nothing else. Dooku has the means to properly evade the tentacles and nullify whatever advantage they provide Zannah.

But surely intelligence, resourcefulness and tactical acumen are an element of any fighters skill and capability. I'm just not seeing what makes you think that Dooku will know that he has to evade the tentacles instead of blocking them.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sabers, Dooku stomps hard.

Force, might give it to Zannah due to variety of feats.

All out, Dooku.

Actually Dooku was stronger in the Force, but he didn't delve into Sith Magic at all.

That's how Mother Talzin got the better of him despite being waaay below his caliber...Aryan Magic.

I wouldn't necessarily say that Dooku was stronger. Zannah had the potential at least to surpass Bane, and did defeat him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wouldn't necessarily say that Dooku was stronger. Zannah had the potential at least to surpass Bane, and did defeat him.

She didn't beat him.

But.... she did?

Originally posted by Nephthys
But.... she did?

Neither of them survived that fight.

:?

Zannah sure as hell did. Drew specifically clarified that she won the mind-duel.

Originally posted by Nephthys
:?

Zannah sure as hell did. Drew specifically clarified that she won the mind-duel.

Zannah lay on the ground, still disoriented from the struggle for dominion of her own body with Bane. Even though Bane had been defeated, part of him remained imprinted upon her in the form of a spasming left hand. She rose awkwardly, and cleared the last vestiges of confusion before addressing the approaching Iktotchi. When Cognus called the name of Bane, Zannah declared that Bane was no more, and that she, Darth Zannah, was the new Dark Lord of the Sith. As Cognus's new Master, she instructed the Iktotchi to take Bane's lightsaber, which she would use until she built one of her own. Zannah added that they were Bane's legacy, and that they would continue the ways of the Rule of Two. That way, although an individual might die, the Sith Order would live on forever.

My apologies, this page was expanded upon since last I read it.

So yes, I would rebuttal my previous claim that Dooku was stronger in the Force, Zannah seems to be.

Originally posted by jmoul
On Ambria at Caleb's camp. Three rounds: Sabers, Force, and All-Out. Who wins each round and why?
IMO;

Sabers: Dooku (after a decent battle)
Force: Zannah (she can gain advantage due to her proficiency with Sith Sorcery; Dooku doesn't have powers that can WTFpwn her.)
All-Out: Zannah (This setting favors her)

Originally posted by Nephthys
But surely intelligence, resourcefulness and tactical acumen are an element of any fighters skill and capability. I'm just not seeing what makes you think that Dooku will know that he has to evade the tentacles instead of blocking them.

I'm saying that Dooku has the readily apparent option of evading them rather than attacking them. It's not as if evasion is some secret tactic elusive to Jedi or Sith. It's not my place to script the fight, nor is it yours.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wouldn't necessarily say that Dooku was stronger. Zannah had the potential at least to surpass Bane, and did defeat him.

Why are you wording it like that bro? You know as well as I do that Zannah is in compeltely different league to Dooku in force strength, even bane is and Zannah had far greater potential.

So why is you understating what you really feel?

I get impression you are trying to get on tempest good side and comprosing your beliefs to get on his good side.

Yeah, but Zannah never really did anything that impressive so you couldn't say that she lived up to her potential. If it wasn't for her tentacles she'd kind of suck.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm saying that Dooku has the readily apparent option of evading them rather than attacking them. It's not as if evasion is some secret tactic elusive to Jedi or Sith. It's not my place to script the fight, nor is it yours.

Why would she use tendrils against a Sith as someone as weak as Dooku? She only did against Bane because she needed to. Against Dooku she wouldnt need them.

You clearly heavily underestimate the siths of old. Zannah is one of the most talenetd Force Users of all time/

You underestimate Dooku, sir.

By canon, Zannah had the potential to surpass Bane, and Bane outclasses Dooku every day of the week in terms of both saber and Force prowess.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Bane outclasses Dooku every day of the week in terms of both saber and Force prowess.

While obviously Bane is superior to Dooku, I don't believe Zannah was. As a saberduelist, Dooku could hold his own against Mace, and Yoda--combatants who are well equivalent in swordsmanship to Bane. As a Force Weilder, Dooku is one of the greatest of his time, again, being able to hold his own to Yoda, who is one of the greatest force users of ALL time.

In the end, Dooku has slashed down the main character of the series, Anakin Skywalker, multiple times. He is a Force to be reckoned with.

My point is that it is specifically stated by Bane that Zannah has it within her to surpass him, which is why he took her on as his apprentice. She would certainly have the capability to take down Dooku.

Originally posted by axel_jovan

Feel free to argue otherwise, but Bane is discussed in multiple threads as one of the top Sith. Both his saber and Force feats top Dooku's best showings.

facepalm

Apparently fallacious appeals to consensus are contagious as of late. To quote the good Count, surely you can do better.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
While obviously Bane is superior to Dooku
Obviously?

Read your own words and think again:

Originally posted by Arhael
Obviously?

Yes.

We could always attempt to find a feat of Sidious or Dooku that is on par with the speed, reflex and agility of Bane's rain-feat, and then calc them to be sure.

If we could find a feat for both, that can be realistically considered to be on par with, or greater than the attributes of Bane's rain-feat, then that should put this to rest.

'Cause yeah, it sucks that apparently a lot of people are apparently aware that Bane outclasses Dooku and Sidious in sabers - but at least this will test the belief of the masses, and validate what they've come to know.

Ye, rain is certainly more worthy foe than Sidious or Dooku.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ye, rain is certainly more worthy foe than Sidious or Dooku.

That's right - now go back to playing with your Legos.

Temp, you believe that in context Dooku compares favorably with Bane?

I doubt it. Bane is noted for his speed. He does not just have the rain feat. I am unaware of Dooku being fast enough to appear to be wielding 12 lightsabers at once, at least. His best feat of speed is not losing to an out-of-practice Yoda.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Temp, you believe that in context Dooku compares favorably with Bane?

I was referring more to Sidious than the good Count, but I certainly don't think Bane outclasses him, no.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I doubt it. Bane is noted for his speed. He does not just have the rain feat. I am unaware of Dooku being fast enough to appear to be wielding 12 lightsabers at once, at least.

Obvious hyperbole is obvious and as gratuitous as Karpyshyn is in that respect, Stover is no lightweight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His best feat of speed is not losing to an out-of-practice Yoda.

To paraphrase you, "Yoda is noted for his speed." Why should holding his own against Yoda be to Dooku's detriment?

Originally posted by Nephthys
His best feat of speed is not losing to an out-of-practice Yoda.
And Yoda is apparently not among the fastest in mythos, if not the fastest.

If Kas'im's proclamations about the relationship between the Force and physicality is true, Bane cannot be faster than Sidious by default.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Right.

Well, as the passage simply indicates, blocking and dodging every drop in a down-pouring storm for ten minutes, would evidently require an insane amount of speed, reflex and endurance, as he kept this up, for example, far longer than we've seen Dooku or Sidious keep up a defensive maneuver against thousands of projectiles launched by the sky.

The maneuver also required a gathering and concentration of power before hand:



The novel also explains, prior, that Bane's speed has fractionally declined with age. Despite the considerable physical and metaphysical enhancements of orbalisks in Rule of Two, Bane is not known (at least by me) to have employed such speed in a duel, at least to degree that he blitzed any Force user of note.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The maneuver also required a gathering and concentration of power before hand:

Well, that makes sense. It would be the same for Dooku or Sidious, if they needed the Force to amplify their actions.



Originally posted by The_Tempest

The novel also explains, prior, that Bane's speed has fractionally declined with age. Despite the considerable physical and metaphysical enhancements of orbalisks in Rule of Two, Bane is not known (at least by me) to have employed such speed in a duel, at least to degree that he blitzed any Force user of note.

I think it was our great Nephthys, who pointed out a good speed feat for Bane that was excerpted from Rule of Two.

Dynasty of Evil would apparently have us believe that Bane's speed reached a sort of peak in that book, though I can't remember how many people he fought in it.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Well, that makes sense. It would be the same for Dooku or Sidious, if they needed the Force to amplify their actions.

I'm unaware of a scenario where that has been the case for Sidious. The only time I recall Dooku needing to pause and draw on the Force to replenish his energy was during the brief lull in the duel against Anakin in ROTS.

Originally posted by Rookwood
I think it was our great Nephthys, who pointed out a good speed feat for Bane that was excerpted from Rule of Two.

Dynasty of Evil would apparently have us believe that Bane's speed reached a sort of peak in that book, though I can't remember how many people he fought in it.

Those feats were conducted when Bane was wearing orbalisk armor.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

To paraphrase you, "Yoda is noted for his speed." Why should holding his own against Yoda be to Dooku's detriment?
In the end Dooku had to put others in danger to pull Yoda off of him. I wouldn't say he was a true match for Yoda, even at his best.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
In the end Dooku had to put others in danger to pull Yoda off of him. I wouldn't say he was a true match for Yoda, even at his best.

Neither would I. But then, I didn't make that claim.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm unaware of a scenario where that has been the case for Sidious. The only time I recall Dooku needing to pause and draw on the Force to replenish his energy was during the brief lull in the duel against Anakin in ROTS.

If Yoda or Dooku do it, I don't see why it would be any different for Sidious.



Originally posted by The_Tempest

Those feats were conducted when Bane was wearing orbalisk armor.

There is nothing to indicate that Bane is any slower during his rain-feat in the next book.

Originally posted by Rookwood
If Yoda or Dooku do it, I don't see why it would be any different for Sidious.

Yoda, being a diminutive alien more than eight centuries old, can barely walk without the Force. Dooku and Sidious are considerably more mobile and not nearly as destitute physically. Obviously they must use the Force to enhance their abilities, but there is no reason to think that Sidious has to stop and gather it in a concerted effort.

Originally posted by Rookwood
There is nothing to indicate that Bane is any slower during his rain-feat in the next book.

Per Rule of Two, orbalisks enhance Bane's attributes. The only thing not indicated is the idea that he's magically as fast without them.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yoda, being a diminutive alien more than eight centuries old, can barely walk without the Force. Dooku and Sidious are considerably more mobile and not nearly as destitute physically. Obviously they must use the Force to enhance their abilities, but there is no reason to think that Sidious has to stop and gather it in a concerted effort.

Drawing upon the Force doesn't necessarily have anything to do with ones age or physical stature.

I can remember a number of times in the novels, where Luke would concentrate and draw upon the Force to make a leap, etc.

That's essentially how it is for Force users; both Jedi and Sith.

I don't see how there would be a special exception for Sidious, though.


Originally posted by The_Tempest

Per Rule of Two, orbalisks enhance Bane's attributes. The only thing not indicated is the idea that he's magically as fast without them.

But didn't the rain-feat exemplify that?

Obralisk enhanced Bane's speed was compared to dozen lightsabers.

Windu's speed was compared to 24 lightsabers. Sidious matched Windu in speed, yet, both Sidious and Dooku had hard time fighting Yoda.

By your mathematics logic Bane is around twice slower than Dooku.

Drawing upon the Force is ubiquitous. Stopping to gather energy is not. Why should I assume that Sidious must expend similar effort and energy to Bane?



No.

The rain-feat exemplifies that Bane is still extremely fast. If an item is noted to provide physical enhancements, why would we assume that those enhancements would remain in the item's absence?

It's no different than telling me that my 5'4" girlfriend would stand 5'10" when wearing 6 inch heels but remain that height with bare feet. It doesn't make any sense at all.

No one is suggesting Bane is a slow-poke, but the incontrovertible fact remains that he's slower without orbalisks.

We know Sidious is more powerful than Bane from a number of sources. He should be correspondingly faster.

Originally posted by Arhael
Obralisk enhanced Bane's speed was compared to dozen lightsabers.

Windu's speed was compared to 24 lightsabers. Sidious matched Windu in speed

By your mathematics logic Bane is around twice slower than Dooku.

And?

By your mathematical logic, NJO Luke must be slower than Sidious, because his speed was compared to just twenty lightsabers, while Sidious was on par with Mace Windu, whose visual speed is apparently greater than NJO Luke's.

- And I think you mean twice slower than Sidious, not Dooku. Since Dooku was below Sidious and Windu in speed.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Drawing upon the Force is ubiquitous. Stopping to gather energy is not. Why should I assume that Sidious must expend similar effort and energy to Bane?


Because Sidious is just like any other Force user - just powerful.

Other powerful practitioners also have to absorb energy and expend it, so I don't see how he's the sole exception.



Originally posted by The_Tempest

No.

The rain-feat exemplifies that Bane is still extremely fast. If an item is noted to provide physical enhancements, why would we assume that those enhancements would remain in the item's absence?

It's no different than telling me that my 5'4" girlfriend would stand 5'10" when wearing 6 inch heels but remain that height with bare feet. It doesn't make any sense at all.

No one is suggesting Bane is a slow-poke, but the incontrovertible fact remains that he's slower without orbalisks.

We know Sidious is more powerful than Bane from a number of sources. He should be correspondingly faster.


Apparently, you're hinging your argument on the assumption, that for some reason, Bane didn't grow to become knowledgeable and powerful enough to end up as fast as Sidious, toward the end of his life.

Yes, the Orbalisks gave him augmented speed and power - but after he got rid of them, his total training and research in the Sith arts ended up gifting him with that kind of speed, anyway.

What the rain-feat exemplifies, is not only is he visually faster with a blade than any character we've seen, apart from NJO Luke+ - but, that he has grown in skill and power in the Dark side, to the point where he doesn't need them, anyway.

Also, Force users might be stronger in one Force ability and weaker in another - so you're also hinging you're argument off of the assumption, that just because Sidious tends to be strong in certain Force powers, he should automatically be equally strong in all powers, which isn't how it works.

Sidious is great at utilizing the Force Storm ability later on - yet he's too slow and lacks the agility, even in a younger body, to defeat a Pre-NJO Luke.

RotS Sidious is great enough with Telekinesis to hurl Senate Pods like toys - but he lacks the speed and agility to defeat Mace Windu, who is below Yoda.

Until I see otherwise, there is no evidence to suggest any version of Sidious in on par with (Peak) Bane in terms of speed and agility.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Temp, you believe that in context Dooku compares favorably with Bane?

I doubt it. Bane is noted for his speed. He does not just have the rain feat. I am unaware of Dooku being fast enough to appear to be wielding 12 lightsabers at once, at least. His best feat of speed is not losing to an out-of-practice Yoda.

I know this isn't 12 Lightsabers at once(something they've never actually shown visually), but 0:21-0:25 is amongst the fastest footwork and movement I've seen in Star Wars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3wcQEhXwyw

And who said Yoda was out of practice against Dooku? It always amuses me the lengths people will go to downplay Dooku's feat of temporarily holding his own against Yoda.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And who said Yoda was out of practice against Dooku?

Uh, me and Nephthys, Pal.

Remember that big debacle?

- And no one is trying to downplay Dooku's feat of holding Yoda off.

Dooku himself, was out of practice.

So what you're saying is, when it suits your argument, all Force users are alike. Because Characters X and Y share a specific trait, so too must Character Z?

I might buy that if you didn't jettison that line of thought later in the post when it suits Bane.

The fact remains that Sidious, to my knowledge, is not known to require such meditative gathering of energy to attack with preternatural speed whereas Bane was forced to in order to combat the rain.



Because Sidious is more powerful in the Force than Bane and, if we subscribe to Kas'im's logic, correspondingly capable of greater feats of physicality.



Not only is this a baseless assumption, it's flat out wrong. Bane laments in Dynasty of Evil that, courtesy of the aging process, he is slower than he once was. And that's not even taking the orbalisks into consideration, which (at his physical peak), made him stronger and his "reflexes quicker" than they'd ever been (Rule of Two).



This is another baseless assumption. Bane muses more than once in Dynasty of Evil that the removal of the orbalisks required a shift in tactics when combating his enemies. Furthermore, unlike Bane, Luke demonstrates the blade speed in the midst of combat and is not so easily exhausted.



That's true, but Sidious's superiority over Bane isn't conveyed in the form of specific abilities. The Dark Side Sourcebook, The Complete Visual Dictionary, and The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia simply conveys superior power. Obviously Bane could be superior in certain respects, but greater power in the Force (per Kas'im) lends an individual greater capabilities for combat physicality.



Setting aside the obvious fact that the outcome of one battle does not necessarily confer superiority, the second duel between the Emperor and Luke is one of relative party. In one scan, Sidious has taken the offensive and has Luke with his back against the wall; in the next, Sidious is disarmed.

But more importantly, Luke displays tremendous power in Dark Empire. Losing to him is hardly an embarrassment.



Because Mace Windu was bolstered by Vaapad (and Sidious's own speed). But don't let little things like facts get in your way.



Actually, there's plenty to suggest it. But I'm cool with agreeing to disagree: I have little energy for a multi-page debate where I'm constantly chasing down an enemy running with the goalpost and leaving an obstacle course of double standards in his wake.

Originally posted by Rookwood
If we could find a feat for both, that can be realistically considered to be on par with, or greater than the attributes of Bane's rain-feat, then that should put this to rest.


How about when Sidious blitzed Kolar and Tiin before either of them were able to react? Tiin himself is known for his precog abilities, being able to pilot ships in hyperspace and reacting to space debri coming at him at great speed (lightspeed?), but yet Sidious was able to attack Kolar and then him before he could react. Have you calculated how fast Sidious must have been to accomplish this?


Originally posted by Rookwood
'Cause yeah, it sucks that apparently a lot of people are apparently aware that Bane outclasses Dooku and Sidious in sabers - but at least this will test the belief of the masses, and validate what they've come to know.


Darth Bane's rain feat is no more of a dueling feat than blocking blasters bolts with saber. While it does show that Bane has an exceptionally fast defense, but engaging in an actual lightsaber duel requires more than just swinging a blade really fast in a single sequence. And I'm not sure how it makes him faster than Sidious, unless you or anyone else can calculate how fast Sidious was going.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How about when Sidious blitzed Kolar and Tiin before either of them were able to react? Tiin himself is known for his precog abilities, being able to pilot ships in hyperspace and reacting to space debri coming at him at great speed (lightspeed?), but yet Sidious was able to attack Kolar and then him before he could react. Have you calculated how fast Sidious must have been to accomplish this?

The Jedi during that time were gimped.

Sidious had utilized the Dark side to dampen their connection and ability to perceive the Force.

"..our ability to use the Force has diminished." - Mace Windu


Effectively blindfolding them to their extermination.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Darth Bane's rain feat is no more of a dueling feat than blocking blasters bolts with saber. While it does show that Bane has an exceptionally fast defense, but engaging in an actual lightsaber duel requires more than just swinging a blade really fast in a single? sequence. And I'm not sure how it makes him faster than Sidious, unless you or anyone else can calculate how fast Sidious was going.

It's not just the speed - it's also the sheer number of projectiles he's successfully blocking - and how long he keeps it up.

He apparently managed to block thousands upon thousands (requiring great speed and dexterity to block) of tiny (requiring incredible control and perception in the process) projectiles, launched from the sky at great speeds - and managed to block every one of these objects in a violent downpour - for ten minutes.

- That's like someone shooting thousands of rounds of tiny pins at you, at high speeds - but from all around you - for ten minutes.

And you block and dodge them all, perfectly.

That equals insane speed, reflex, agility and endurance. The likes we've yet to see Sidious match.

And in regards to swordsmanship, Bane at this point was already a Master of many Forms and had great experience with dueling.

So, couple this with speed and dexterity that goes beyond everyone in the mythos, with the exception of Luke - and you've got something.

Originally posted by Rookwood
The Jedi during that time were gimped.

Sidious had utilized the Dark side to dampen their connection and ability to perceive the Force.

"..our ability to use the Force has diminished." - Mace Windu


Effectively blindfolding them to their extermination.




It's not just the speed - it's also the sheer number of projectiles he's successfully blocking - and how long he keeps it up.

He apparently managed to block thousands upon thousands (requiring great speed and dexterity to block) of tiny (requiring incredible control and perception in the process) projectiles, launched from the sky at great speeds - and managed to block every one of these objects in a violent downpour - for ten minutes.

- That's like someone shooting thousands of rounds of tiny pins at you, at high speeds - but from all around you - for ten minutes.

And you block and dodge them all, perfectly.

That equals insane speed, reflex, agility and endurance. The likes we've yet to see Sidious match.

And in regards to swordsmanship, Bane at this point was already a Master of many Forms and had great experience with dueling.

So, couple this with speed and dexterity that goes beyond everyone in the mythos, with the exception of Luke - and you've got something.


Just shut up k? lol

Honestly, I need to read the entire passage. How windy was it? Because I don't see how he had to block rain from all around when rain comes down from one direction. And I still don't see how we can compare it with how fast Sidious was going. Sidious was attacking, while Bane was defending.

I can't think straight right now, so IDC.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just shut up k? lol

Honestly, I need to read the entire passage. How windy was it? Because I don't see how he had to block rain from all around when rain comes down from one direction. And I still don't see how we can compare it with how fast Sidious was going. Sidious was attacking, while Bane was defending.

I can't think straight right now, so IDC.

Make sure to switch out your tampon with a fresh one, so it isn't smelly.

Is this your first period?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Just shut up! I need to.. I need to...THINK.

Shut..up.... I love you... I HATE you! Why don't you ever listen to me?

......no

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The idea that Jedi combat abilities were gimped is heretofore baseless:

- Exactly.

The Jedi majorly appear to have high reflexes, because of their ability to use Precognition in battle.

Palpatine's shroud diminished their ability to see into the future - thereby gimping their Precog and taking away most of their defensive capability in a fight.

Which is also a good reason as to why so many skilled Jedi died in ridiculous ways during Order 66.

But essentially, Palpy fought some gimped-Jedi, so if the situation had been different, they probably would have done a good job holding him off, or maybe even overpowering him.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Except you overlook the fact that Windu specifically pointed out their diminished ability to use the Force - at that later particular part in the war, when it had become apparent.

The only thing being overlooked is the context of Windu's admission. Yoda says that the Jedi must have been blind not to foresee the development of a clone army; Dooku later says that the dark side cloud around the Jedi vision is what prevents them from detecting Sidious's presence.

Nowhere is combat said to play a role.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Perhaps earlier on the Shroud had not been potent enough to affect them so greatly - but at that point, it definitely was.

I'm pretty sure Mace's shatterpoint charism was used just fine in the duel against Sidious, whereas after Dooku's death he was unable to glean much from a non-combat standpoint.

Maybe they time-traveled!

Originally posted by Rookwood
And is just another reason for the way everything transpired - including Palpatine's dispatching of the now-gimped Jedi Masters.

Well, there's no evidence to support this. But on the other hand, you say so, so why not?

I'm not sure what the point of any debate is with you on hand to lay down the law with such clarity.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only thing being overlooked is the context of Windu's admission. Yoda says that the Jedi must have been blind not to foresee the development of a clone army; Dooku later says that the dark side cloud around the Jedi vision is what prevents them from detecting Sidious's presence.

Nowhere is combat said to play a role.

Dampened Precog is dampened precog.


Originally posted by The_Tempest

I'm pretty sure Mace's shatterpoint charism was used just fine in the duel against Sidious, whereas after Dooku's death he was unable to glean much from a non-combat standpoint.

Maybe they time-traveled!

His ability to use Shatterpoints may have dampened as well.

I'm not saying they lost their Precog completely - just that it was weakened; apparently significantly - Which makes sense.


Originally posted by The_Tempest

Well, there's no evidence to support this. But on the other hand, you say so, so why not?

I'm not sure what the point of any debate is with you on hand to lay down the law with such clarity.

Well, their Precog was weakened. Just Saiyan.

Way to lay down the law, bro.

Given that your presence renders things like canon and debate obsolete, we should probably look into renovating these forums. Maybe you could post a thread and tell us the winner in the next post and we could just read it and agree.

mmm

That's what her polls are for.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Way to lay down the law, bro.

Given that your presence renders things like canon and debate obsolete, we should probably look into renovating these forums. Maybe you could post a thread and tell us the winner in the next post and we could just read it and agree.

mmm

Actually, I'm way into Canon - and logic.

But again, I'm just putting my viewpoints out there - and I greatly respect yours.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Actually, I'm way into Canon - and logic.



Are you?


Originally posted by Rookwood

I did watch it - paid money to go see the Pilot in Theaters.

Then I watched season 1 - until the episode where Dooku was caught like a mouse by some pirates.

Then I realized it's essentially Retarded-garbage intended for children or those with an IQ of 10 or below.

I don't consider any of that crap to be Canon, and not surprisingly, a lot of other people don't, as well.






If you really want to be into Canon, then you need to be into ALL OF IT. You can't just pick and choose what is canon and what is not according to your own likes and dislikes.

Does it matter if he does it in combat or out combat? He can move at those speeds either way.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And the way Sidious slaughtered them is more impressive than anything Bane has done in actual combat, IMO. Bane's rain feat is impressive, but how can we compare it with Palpatine's blitzing? Bane's feat was more of a display of defensive speed.

Defensive speed? What do you mean? Speed is speed, and it can be used offensively or defensively...

No, it requires far more coordination to apply that same speed in a duel. And, no, defensive speed is not the same as offensive speed. For example, I can have exceptionally fast reflexes, but that doesn't mean I can do boxing combos with the exact same amount of speed. And in a fight I would also be defending against more than just an opponents speed, I would also be defending against his strength, while dishing out punches of my own, which would leave me open to any possible attacks. Rain? Come on defending against rain is not the same as defending against a lightsaber attack, as rain has hardly any impact whatsoever compared to force inhanced lightsaber attacks. Bane can casually defend himself against rain by moving his blade really fast in a single sequence, forming a shield out of his blade. Do you think that's all he will be doing in a lightsaber duel that requires more than moving his blade in a single sequence, but that also requires foot work (or moving his entire body with force inhanced speed) and attacks of his own.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Bane is not skilled or that he is not strong enough to defend against saber attacks. I'm saying that Sidious has by far the better speed feat in context of actual combat.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Come on defending against rain is not the same as defending against a lightsaber attack, as rain has hardly any impact whatsoever compared to force inhanced lightsaber attacks. Bane can casually defend himself against rain by moving his blade really fast in a single sequence, forming a shield out of his blade.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it requires far more coordination to apply that same speed in a duel. And, no, defensive speed is not the same as offensive speed. For example, I can have exceptionally fast reflexes, but that doesn't mean I can do boxing combos with the exact same amount of speed. And in a fight I would also be defending against more than just an opponents speed, Rain? Come on defending against rain is not the same as defending against a lightsaber attack, as rain has hardly any impact whatsoever compared to force inhanced lightsaber attacks. Bane can casually defend himself against rain by moving his blade really fast in a single sequence, forming a shield out of his blade. Do you think that's all he will be doing in a lightsaber duel that requires more than moving his blade in a single sequence, but that also requires foot work (or moving his entire body with force inhanced speed) and attacks of his own.

Right.

You have absolutely no clue of what you're talking about.

If Bane (or anyone) has the reflexes to block and dodge every droplet in a violent storm for ten minutes - they have no need to meet physical force with physical force - and with that kind of reflex, they can defend - and time their counter-strikes.

You don't need to use a goddamn "combo" if you know where your opponent is going to be - all you need to do is defend, wait till he gets there, and strike through an opening, either present, or created by your defense.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I would also be defending against his strength, while dishing out punches of my own, which would leave me open to any possible attacks.
Yeah, maybe if you no concept of timing, or no understanding of how to block punches.

And who the hell teaches you to meet force with force? That's utterly retarded.


I get the feeling you watch a lot of UFC/Boxing on tv, without understanding how it actually works.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Bane is not skilled or that he is not strong enough to defend against saber attacks. I'm saying that Sidious has by far the better speed feat in context of actual combat.
Bullshit.

In terms of pure speed, the physical attributes and demands of Bane's rain-feat go beyond everyone in the mythos, except for Luke.

If you want to argue Palpatine has better technique - that might be debatable.

But in terms of physical visual speed? That's quite evidently Bane.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it requires far more coordination to apply that same speed in a duel. And, no, defensive speed is not the same as offensive speed. For example, I can have exceptionally fast reflexes, but that doesn't mean I can do boxing combos with the exact same amount of speed.

Um, yes you could.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Rain? Come on defending against rain is not the same as defending against a lightsaber attack, as rain has hardly any impact whatsoever compared to force inhanced lightsaber attacks. Bane can casually defend himself against rain by moving his blade really fast in a single sequence, forming a shield out of his blade. Do you think that's all he will be doing in a lightsaber duel that requires more than moving his blade in a single sequence, but that also requires foot work (or moving his entire body with force inhanced speed) and attacks of his own.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Bane is not skilled or that he is not strong enough to defend against saber attacks. I'm saying that Sidious has by far the better speed feat in context of actual combat.

You should actually read the passage before you run your mouth next time.

'As the first fat drops splattered onto the patio stones around him, Bane exploded into action. Abandoning the overpowering style of Djem So, he shifted to the quicker sequences of Soresu, his lightsaber tracing tight circles above his head in a series of movements designed to intercept enemy blaster bolts.

The wind rose to a howling gale, and the scattered drops quickly became a downpour. His body and mind united as one, he channeled the infinite power of the Force against the driving rain. Tiny clouds of hissing steam formed as his blade picked off the descending drops while Bane twisted, twirled, and contorted his body to evade those few that managed to slip through his defenses.

For the next ten minutes he battled the pelting storm, reveling in the power of the dark side. And then, as suddenly as it had begun, the tempest was gone, the dark cloud scurrying away on the breeze. Breathing hard, Bane extinguished his lightsaber. His skin was sheened in sweat, but not a single drop of rain had touched his bare flesh.'

Its pretty clear that he's not just spinning his lightsaber above his head.

Indeed.

Originally posted by Rookwood
If Bane (or anyone) has the reflexes to block and dodge every droplet in a violent storm for ten minutes - they have no need to meet physical force with physical force


No, you're just not getting what I'm saying. Physical force of a lightsaber attack can somewhat slow a person down. For example, it was the power behind Anakin's attacks that allowed him to beat Dooku, causing Dooku to stagger. However, Dooku was reacting to Anakin's attacks just fine. It was Anakin's strength that Dooku was having trouble with. Now, if the strength/impact behind Anakin's attacks were replaced with the impact of rain, then Dooku would have casually defended against the attacks just fine considering that Anakin isn't much faster than Dooku. Dooku also didn't have trouble reacting to Savage's speed considering that Dooku is considerably faster (it's how he dodged Savage's strikes while unarmed afterall); it was the strength behind Savage's attacks that Dooku couldn't defend against.

If you are implying that Bane is so fast that he can blitz opponents before crossing blades with them, then give me a feat that shows him doing that. He has never replicated the same amount of speed in combat. He has never blitzed exceptionally fast jedi as easily as Palpatine has. His best speed feat was defending himself from rain. And again, defensive speed is not the same as offensive speed. You and Neph can argue "yah-huh" all you want. Dooku reacted to Yoda's speed, but that doesn't mean he can attack as fast.



Originally posted by Rookwood
You don't need to use a goddamn "combo" if you know where your opponent is going to be - all you need to do is defend, wait till he gets there, and strike through an opening, either present, or created by your defense.



It depends on who you're fighting. Defending against the speed of Palpatine's attacks would be far more trouble for Bane than defending against rain, as Palpatine's attacks would have about a million times the greater impact. And you have not quite proven that Bane is faster than Palpatine, who can move far beyond the inhanced perception and reaction speed of jedi who can use the force to navigate starships in hyperspace, or casually defend against mulitiple blaster bolts at once (Palpatine can also defend against opponents who stalemate him in speed). The best you can do is grasp at straws and say that the force was dampening the jedi's ability to use the force, as if that somehow change's their accomplished feats; it doesn't.

Now calculate Palpatine's speed for me and explain how it compares to Bane's, because I have absolutley no idea. I'm no expert on this kind of stuff (evidently neither are you). Otherwise, I'm not interested in debating with some troll who tries to be some comedian that laughs at her own jokes because noone else will.

For example, it was the power behind Anakin's attacks that allowed him to beat Dooku, causing Dooku to stagger. However, Dooku was reacting to Anakin's attacks just fine. It was Anakin's strength that Dooku was having trouble with. Now, if the strength/impact behind Anakin's attacks were replaced with the impact of rain, then Dooku would have casually defended against the attacks just fine considering that Anakin isn't much faster than Dooku.
That's true. Dooku had less trouble fighting Yoda, while Yoda does more attack per second, they carry little strength.


Palpatine moves faster than hyperspace traveling?

Originally posted by Arhael
Palpatine moves faster than hyperspace traveling?


Well it is a bit to extreme to say that. But it's safe to say that Tiin is exceptional with pregoc and reaction speed among force users. And the way Sidious slaughtered him right after slaughtering Kolar suggests that Palpatine's speed is far beyond even his inhanced reaction.


http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/silver2467/saesee-tiin-respect-thread/87-78153/

There is also a list of other speed feats from Tiin here (along with sources)

Ye, I know that.
Blaster bolts for example (not even talking about hyperspace) are much faster than Sidious or any other Force user. Those Jedi simply couldn't anticipate him and it is not necessarily because of speed.

Force users can confuse precognition of others:
"This allowed him to keep his mind focused so he could use the Force to anticipate his opponent's moves, while at the same time obscuring and confusing his enemy's own precognitive senses."

Jaina got kicked by Boba Fett. She was focused on him and still completely failed to anticipate his attack. If non-sensitive can pull such trick, so can Force user of Palpatine's caliber.

As for Bane's rain feat. Well, it is written by Karpyshyn, in his books even average lightning vaporises instantly.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, you're just not getting what I'm saying. Physical force of a lightsaber attack can somewhat slow a person down. For example, it was the power behind Anakin's attacks that allowed him to beat Dooku, causing Dooku to stagger. However, Dooku was reacting to Anakin's attacks just fine. It was Anakin's strength that Dooku was having trouble with. Now, if the strength/impact behind Anakin's attacks were replaced with the impact of rain, then Dooku would have casually defended against the attacks just fine considering that Anakin isn't much faster than Dooku. Dooku also didn't have trouble reacting to Savage's speed considering that Dooku is considerably faster (it's how he dodged Savage's strikes while unarmed afterall); it was the strength behind Savage's attacks that Dooku couldn't defend against.

If you're assuming that Bane for whatever reason, still has to meet the force of Sidious' swings - then Sidious is still beat.

Palpatine is a small 5'8 man, while Bane is heavier and around 6'5.

Both empower their attacks with the Force, but Bane is heavier, bigger and more physically-imposing.

Sidious' feeble physicality is a trivial factor, here.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

If you are implying that Bane is so fast that he can blitz opponents before crossing blades with them, then give me a feat that shows him doing that. He has never replicated the same amount of speed in combat. He has never blitzed exceptionally fast jedi as easily as Palpatine has. His best speed feat was defending himself from rain.

Which is much greater speed than anything we've seen from Sidious.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

And again, defensive speed is not the same as offensive speed.

You have no clue of what you're talking about. Speed is speed; it just depends on how it's utilized.

And if one has great defensive speed - then they can set up for an interceptive-attack - using defensive speed to create an opening, and then time a strike which goes through the opening; into the target.

In MMA, this would be known as "Counter-striking" - which would hinge on "defensive speed".


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

You and Neph can argue "yah-huh" all you want. Dooku reacted to Yoda's speed, but that doesn't mean he can attack as fast.

Apparently they could attack as quickly as each other - as neither was able to strike the other; and simply defended during the skirmish.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

It depends on who you're fighting. Defending against the speed of Palpatine's attacks would be far more trouble for Bane than defending against rain, as Palpatine's attacks would have about a million times the greater impact.

Bane is bigger, heavier, and the stronger man.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

And you have not quite proven that Bane is faster than Palpatine, who can move far beyond the inhanced

It's "enhanced".


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

perception and reaction speed of jedi who can use the force to navigate starships in hyperspace, or casually defend against mulitiple blaster bolts at once (Palpatine can also defend against opponents who stalemate him in speed). The best you can do is grasp at straws and say that the force was dampening the jedi's ability to use the force, as if that somehow change's their accomplished feats; it doesn't.

Yeah, typically gimping someone's abilities, does affect their overall ability to fight.

And while the "hyperspace" thing is probably an Apples/Oranges thing, Bane can also defend multiple blaster bolts at once - oh, and thousands of tiny projectiles hurled from the sky, as well.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I have absolutley no idea
I know you don't, Transvestite.

You are the one with the period, after all. How did that go down, by the way?

Is there still blood in your underwear?

And yes, you "absolutely" have no clue as to what you're talking about, or how to win this debate.

You know that Bane has demonstrated greater speed than Palpatine, and he's also beaten great Jedi, who weren't gimped in the Force.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Unless, of course, it was too fast for them to see.
Why would they need to see? Jedi don't react, they anticipate before attack even starts.

Recall, Luke's training session in ANH. His eyes were closed. He felt the droid and was putting lightsaber in the pass of blaster bolts before they were even shot. Speed of blaster bolts was irrelevant because lightsaber was placed in the right position in advance to intercept it. Speed alone is insufficient factor, it;s all about prediction.

Indeed, Sidious is blindly fast. Quote you provided, also, mentions dexterity apart from speed but don't want to speculate on that.
It just doesn't make sense to me that Luke holding lightsaber second time in his life can anticipate blaster bolt with close eyes, yet, two Jedi masters failed to even flick their lightsaber in a failed attempt to block attack.

Originally posted by Rookwood
If you're assuming that Bane for whatever reason, still has to meet the force of Sidious' swings


He will and the force behind Palpatine's attacks are enough to slow him down considerably. Not saying Palpatine will own Bane through sheer strength as easily as Anakin did Dooku or anything, but the force behind Palpatine's attacks are such that Bane wouldn't be defending as fast as he did against the rain considering that far more pressure would be applied against his saber, slowing down his movements.



Originally posted by Rookwood
Which is much greater speed than anything we've seen from Sidious.



Not convinced.




Originally posted by Rookwood
You are the one with the period, after all. How did that go down, by the way?


Idk. Since you seem to be turned on by the thought of it seeing how you keep asking about it, how 'bout you come taste it and find out.



Originally posted by Rookwood
You know that Bane has demonstrated greater speed than Palpatine, and he's also beaten great Jedi, who weren't gimped in the Force.


Right. lol

Bane has blitzed far greater jedi (what were their names again? lmao) than Palpatine has.

Move on, troll.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He will and the force behind Palpatine's attacks are enough to slow him down considerably. Not saying Palpatine will own Bane through sheer strength as easily as Anakin did Dooku or anything, but the force behind Palpatine's attacks are such that Bane wouldn't be defending as fast as he did against the rain considering that far more pressure would be applied against his saber, slowing down his movements.

Palpatine is smaller and weaker than Bane, and would be little more than a speed bump to him.

And not much later, a dead little speed bump.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Not convinced.


And I'm convinced that the slower Sidious can't keep up with his much larger, stronger; faster adversary.

Sidious has yet to show anything that can compare with the pure physicality of Bane's storm feat.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Idk. Since you seem to be turned on by the thought of it seeing how you keep asking about it, how 'bout you come taste it and find out.

I should know the address of the one who is going to be sucking my dick.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Right. lol

Bane has blitzed far greater jedi (what were their names again? lmao) than Palpatine has.

Palpatine rushed some Jedi, whose senses were dulled by the Dark side - and he was still kicked down, by a Jedi weaker than Yoda, afterwards.

Palpatine is too weak; too slow.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Move on, troll.
After you suck my dick, Susie.

Right after I make you pregnant, I'm going to name my kid Dessel.

- And I'll sue you in court, to retain custody of him.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Palpatine is smaller and weaker than Bane,

A quick whizz through this page and I can see the weakness thing has already been addressed.



Anyway I've not read any Bane novels but can someone please explain why the heck Bane was desperately defending himself from rain drops?

I hope it was some seriously acidic rain.

He was training.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
A quick whizz through this page and I can see the weakness thing has already been addressed.



Anyway I've not read any Bane novels but can someone please explain why the heck Bane was desperately defending himself from rain drops?

I hope it was some seriously acidic rain.

Hes had a crippliung fear of water ever since his father tried to drown him when he was a 6 years old.

Regardless of all this tangential banter, Bane>Dooku every day of the week. Bane directly states that Zannah had the potential to surpass him in the Force, she took the mantle from him in the end, and her sorcery gives her an edge over whatever Dooku could throw her way.

Dooku falls to the superior Sith.

Luke couldn't blitz even Lumiya. He at most could only drive her back and still only because of desire to avenge Mara. Also, Mara herself handled Lumiya in combat. Now either you argue that half machine Lumiya and Mara are also have speed beyond Sidious or shut up.

I would suggest that maybe Luke wasn't going all-out but he was in a legitimately murderous mood. The only possibility is that the lightwhip makes it harder to blitz because of the length and unpredictable nature of the attack pattern. He didn't have the shoto as well.

However, after looking at the fight, Lumiya does actually block his attacks with her lightwhip handle. Multiple times, its implied.

What is Lueks best speed feat?

I am pretty interested in that myself. IIRC his best feat was during a Battle Meld with Jacen and Jaina. I can't recall much else from him.

Not exactly.

I'm looking through Silver's Respect Thread atm.

X-wings flying at near-relativistic speeds is still loltarded.

Why is it that you are extraordinarily butthurt about "l33t feats" only when they're not attached to, say, Bane? mmm

Because Bane's feats actually make sense within the framework of the mythos and, well, physics. For the Rebels to be flying around at near-lightspeed is retarded given that they are mere humans. In Ep. 1, Anakin was the only human with the reflexes fast enough to perform podracing, and podracers only go a few machs at best, so we know that humans are not secretly super sayains in Star Wars (alliteration ftw!). The novels claim makes no sense and is utterly ridiculous. Surely you must know that.

I'm not defending the X-Wing notion, which is retarded, but then this franchise has been morbidly inconsistent with character depictions.

It's just been a recurring theme that you have a really hard time accepting when your boy/s are outplayed. It's ok that Nihilus can fart and blow up planets but god forbid someone ever move faster than Bane. facepalm

Nihilus is supposed to be ungodly powerful in Kotor II. Thats his entire role in the story and the game reinforces this adequately. Plus it is consistent with Vaders words in the original movie. (unless you said that you were ok with Nihilus being able to do that, in which case nevermind)

As for Bane, do you expect me not to argue my point in an argument? Even when I am not arguing explicitly for Bane I can't exactly say that I believe someone to be faster without it getting thrown in my face at some point, as you are eager to do with me. Fortunately, I do honestly believe that Bane is one of the fastest characters in Star Wars and the text supports me on that. However, it is my belief that even if he is faster than other characters like Sidious, Yoda or Plagueis, or they are faster than him, then such a difference is negligible at best and wouldn't factor into the fight. I will debate that others are faster than him, but I will not deny that he has peers (and will debate those who argue that he is not a peer of those characters).

And its not as if you always accept that your 'boys' are outclassed. How many times have you attempted to undermine Nihilus's ability now? A half dozen maybe?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus is supposed to be ungodly powerful in Kotor II. Thats his entire role in the story and the game reinforces this adequately. Plus it is consistent with Vaders words in the original movie. (unless you said that you were ok with Nihilus being able to do that, in which case nevermind)

So then you'd be cool with Vader doing the same thing?

Originally posted by Nephthys
As for Bane, do you expect me not to argue my point in an argument? Even when I am not arguing explicitly for Bane I can't exactly say that I believe someone to be faster without it getting thrown in my face at some point, as you are eager to do with me. Fortunately, I do honestly believe that Bane is one of the fastest characters in Star Wars and the text supports me on that.

I expect you to argue your point if that's where the facts lead you. I don't expect you to get so whiny when other people do the same thing and you openly seethe at their conclusions. Your attitude with Silver is a prime example of that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And its not as if you always accept that your 'boys' are outclassed. How many times have you attempted to undermine Nihilus's ability now? A half dozen maybe?

My boy is the principal villain of this entire universe, whose job quite frankly is to be better than everyone else (per Rick McCallum). But that's not my point either. You can make the argument all you want, but I don't discriminate in what I find stupid: the idea that Sidious can, with mere thought and inclination, destroy a planet is moronic as is essentially the entirety of Dark Empire. I don't make an exception for that just because he's one of my favorites and (narratively) supposed to be better than every Sith who's come before him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So then you'd be cool with Vader doing the same thing?

Well no, because Vader has never been hinted to be capable of planetary destruction.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I expect you to argue your point if that's where the facts lead you. I don't expect you to get so whiny when other people do the same thing and you openly seethe at their conclusions. Your attitude with Silver is a prime example of that.

I dislike Silver because of his attitude and that he was exceptionally rude and dismissive of me. I'm also jealous of your admiration of him and of your disturbingly submissive interactions with him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
My boy is the principal villain of this entire universe, whose job quite frankly is to be better than everyone else (per Rick McCallum). But that's not my point either. You can make the argument all you want, but I don't discriminate in what I find stupid: the idea that Sidious can, with mere thought and inclination, destroy a planet is moronic as is essentially the entirety of Dark Empire. I don't make an exception for that just because he's one of my favorites and (narratively) supposed to be better than every Sith who's come before him.

Just because you're the main villian doesn't mean you have to outclass everyone at everything. And Sidious can't destroy a planet. Like Nihilus, he can obliterate the surface, but its not like he's just pointing and watching it blow up. It is logically conceivable and believable that he can do this.

But you do make exceptions for the feats of characters I champion. You constantly tried to poke holes in Nihilus, Traya, Vitiate and Bane. Hell, a few weeks ago you were poking holes in Bane's temple feat. I don't see you giving Sidious' feats the same treatment. So get off your ****ing high horse and stop thinking that you have the right to lecture me on how I conduct my arguments. Your farts smell just as rancid as mine.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well no, because Vader has never been hinted to be capable of planetary destruction.

That's pretty weak, bro. Stupid feats are cool as long as they're created for specific characters.


Originally posted by Nephthys
I dislike Silver because of his attitude and that he was exceptionally rude and dismissive of me. I'm also jealous of your admiration of him and of your disturbingly submissive interactions with him.

You dislike Silver because he curbstomped you utterly and I admire him for how takes these dumb feats and turns them around on the characters you love. If you weren't so whiny ("NO, only BANE CAN MAKE AN UMBRELLA OUT OF HIS LIGHTSABER!!!!111!" then it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because you're the main villian doesn't mean you have to outclass everyone at everything. And Sidious can't destroy a planet. Like Nihilus, he can obliterate the surface, but its not like he's just pointing and watching it blow up. It is logically conceivable and believable that he can do this.

It's retarded as hell and conflicts horribly with higher canon, regardless of who wields it.

Sidious, as the main villain and culmination of the Rule of Two, is supposed to be the best Sith (per Bane's own intention).

Originally posted by Nephthys
But you do make exceptions for the feats of characters I champion. You constantly tried to poke holes in Nihilus, Traya, Vitiate and Bane. Hell, a few weeks ago you were poking holes in Bane's temple feat. I don't see you giving Sidious' feats the same treatment. So get off your ****ing high horse and stop thinking that you have the right to lecture me on how I conduct my arguments. Your farts smell just as rancid as mine.

I have zero problem with you trying to poke holes in my argument, that's what you're here to do. I have a problem when you get upset that people borrow your tactics and support a character you don't champion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus it is consistent with Vaders words in the original movie. (unless you said that you were ok with Nihilus being able to do that, in which case nevermind)

Not really. Vader isn't actually saying that someone can destroy a planet with the Force. Rather, he is saying that the force can be used for far greater things. Such as allowing one man to conquer the entire galaxy or allowing a pilot to destroy the Death Star.

Nicely put Aeris.

@nephtys/Tempest: Link to Silver please??

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's pretty weak, bro. Stupid feats are cool as long as they're created for specific characters.

The feat is not stupid if it is narratively believable. Nihilus consuming worlds is instantly acceptable because of Kotor II's excellent writing and presentation. In contrast, if Vader suddenly started vaping cities it would be wildly inconsistent with his other showings.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
You dislike Silver because he curbstomped you utterly and I admire him for how takes these dumb feats and turns them around on the characters you love. If you weren't so whiny ("NO, only BANE CAN MAKE AN UMBRELLA OUT OF HIS LIGHTSABER!!!!111!" then it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

Believe what you want, my issue towards him is purely due to how contemptuous he was towards me. He didn't even respond to my Zannah post, instead just calling me an idiot and then refusing to speak to me despite me apologizing for my perceived slight.

Also, if you check my post at the top of the page, I explicitly say that I believe Bane to have many peers in terms of speed. So, er, fvck you?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's retarded as hell and conflicts horribly with higher canon, regardless of who wields it.

Sidious, as the main villain and culmination of the Rule of Two, is supposed to be the best Sith (per Bane's own intention).

Well I don't think so, which obviously is why I don't take offense to it like you do. Its pretty arrogant to think that you can admonish me for not ascribing to your personal beliefs.

Sidious is the best Sith. That does not mean that he must have the greatest combat powers in all areas or that he alone can be a galactic level threat. He is the best because he is the embodiment of Bane's order and that he accomplishes more than any other Sith in history. Not because he can gut 3 Jedi Masters before they know what the ****.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I have zero problem with you trying to poke holes in my argument, that's what you're here to do. I have a problem when you get upset that people borrow your tactics and support a character you don't champion.

Well frankly you can take your problems with me and shove them up your rectum hole. I am tired of you arrogantly attempting to 'correct my thinking' and of your constant b*tching. How ironic that you're chewing me out for being 'upset' and 'whiney' when you are the only one I've seen whine lately. And I'm sick of it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The feat is not stupid if it is narratively believable. Nihilus consuming worlds is instantly acceptable because of Kotor II's excellent writing and presentation. In contrast, if Vader suddenly started vaping cities it would be wildly inconsistent with his other showings.

Except it's not narratively believable. But I get it, it's cool as long as you have a man crush on the character.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Believe what you want, my issue towards him is purely due to how contemptuous he was towards me. He didn't even respond to my Zannah post, instead just calling me an idiot and then refusing to speak to me despite me apologizing for my perceived slight.

Also, if you check my post at the top of the page, I explicitly say that I believe Bane to have many peers in terms of speed. So, er, fvck you?

He rightly condemned you for your whiny heresy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I don't think so, which obviously is why I don't take offense to it like you do. Its pretty arrogant to think that you can admonish me for not ascribing to your personal beliefs.

No, I admonish you for being so petulant when you openly accept retarded feats as long as your favorites have cornered the market on them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious is the best Sith. That does not mean that he must have the greatest combat powers in all areas or that he alone can be a galactic level threat. He is the best because he is the embodiment of Bane's order and that he accomplishes more than any other Sith in history. Not because he can gut 3 Jedi Masters before they know what the ****.

Please. Setting aside the fact that the Rule of Two is solely about inoculating superior Sith, Lucas made it pretty clear in the 2005 interview with Rolling Stone that the goal is to find a more powerful apprentice. ("That's what Siths do!". By definition, Bane is inferior to Sidious.

But, of course, that's when narrative justification and thematic purpose goes out the window... because it puts my boy about a thousand years ahead of yours.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well frankly you can take your problems with me and shove them up your rectum hole.

I much prefer to shove them up yours, along with my junk. Take it like the b1tch you are. uhuh

Originally posted by Nephthys
I am tired of you arrogantly attempting to 'correct my thinking' and of your constant b*tching. How ironic that you're chewing me out for being 'upset' and 'whiney' when you are the only one I've seen whine lately. And I'm sick of it.

...This would be you whining, son.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Except it's not narratively believable. But I get it, it's cool as long as you have a man crush on the character.

Its pretty clear that no matter what I say you're going to accuse me of fanboyism and try to belittle me, so I'm not even going to bother responding to that anymore.

How is Nihilus' technique not narratively believable?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He rightly condemned you for your whiny heresy.

He got angry when I said that Zannah had demonstrated superior Force powers as a child than Ob-wan did as an adult. Considering Obi-Wan's greatest Force feat was his Push-off with Anakin whereas Zannah disintegrates matter and flies, I don't see that as an insane concept.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, I admonish you for being so petulant when you openly accept retarded feats as long as your favorites have cornered the market on them.

It's lucky that I haven't argued in favor of any retarded feats then, isn't it? Also, 'petulant?' I said it was stupid and you agreed with me. I didn't even mention Silver at all. It's on the guy who wrote Shadows of Mindor, not him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Please. Setting aside the fact that the Rule of Two is solely about inoculating superior Sith, Lucas made it pretty clear in the 2005 interview with Rolling Stone that the goal is to find a more powerful apprentice. ("That's what Siths do!". By definition, Bane is inferior to Sidious.

But, of course, that's when narrative justification and thematic purpose goes out the window... because it puts my boy about a thousand years ahead of yours.

And in this case 'superior Sith' refers to their ability at galactic manipulation and subterfuge, as is what Bane's Order focuses on, not force of arms. Even if they attempt to find a stronger apprentice, that doesn't mean that they always will (it would be illogical for that to occur after all), that the apprentice will succeed at their training and successfully kill their master, or that they will actualize their power. Zannah didn't become more powerful than Bane after all. In terms of combat skills she was weaker in all areas.

I only mentioned narrative justification to justify Nihilus' power. Not as an argument in of itself.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...This would be you whining, son.

I'm not arguing with you about this anymore. The point is that if I offend you so much, put me on ignore. I know I'm considering it.

As long as you try to redistrict believability so that it conveniently excuses the outlandish feats of your favorite characters, then yes, we'll be at odds on that.



Because it defies higher canon, along with a host of outliers from the EU (Sidious's own retarded feats included).



Given that Bane, unaided, has not been shown to disintegrate matter, child!Zannah must be superior to Bane as well in the Force.



Matthew Stover.

I agree because I find feats that contradict higher canon stupid no matter who displays them.



Then I won't find a single quote from Bane from Karpyshyn's trilogy wherein Bane emphasizes Sith superiority in combat means and that the apprentice should defeat the Master in a battle to the death?



Bane selected Zannah because she had the means to surpass him, which is George's point.



Likewise, the philosophy of the Rule of Two and the Sith as articulated by George should be enough to justify Bane's inferiority to Sidious. You can't have your cake and eat it too, bro.



Nah, I like you. You've just been unusually prone to whining and double standards as of late. Flogging you viciously and publicly not only brings me malicious joy, but will motivate you to correct your egregious conduct out of abject fear. You will then reenter the world bereft of your double standards and fragility, stronger as a result.

Everything I do, I do it for you.

If the rule of two philosophy always applies wouldn't that mean Maul had at least the potential to be more powerful than sidious and every sith between him and bane?

Yup.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yup. u don't really believe that though, do u? Wouldn't that also mean tahiri had the potential to to be more powerful than jacen?

With the direction they're going in with Maul, yes. Apparently the new line of thought endorsed by Lucas and espoused by Filoni and Witwer is that Maul was trained by Sidious to be his successor.

As far as Tahiri and Jacen go, they're not members of Bane's Sith order so I can't say.

lol, something i;ve notice about Tempest: he can be very stubborn sometimes, and will take on new opinion just so he doesnt have to admit that his argument was wrong in the first place.

The exact same thing happened when I pointed out tht the prsence of LostTribe of the Sith means that the darkside during palpatine's era was render veyr weak. Insteadn of admitting that what he was saying beofr was wrong, it became a contest of whos era had the most siths and was therefoire the weakest.

Anyway I have no problem with Maul having higher midi count than Sidious, just look at how powerful he was at not even 19 years of age.

Wow, really? Holding back in murderous mood?

Luke tried to cut off his own nephew's head at first possible opportunity for torturing his son. Why on earth he would hold back on a non-relative that killed his wife and who he wholeheartedly intended to kill? How does it make sence at all???


So blocking with hilt means she wasn't fast enough? Lightwhip is soft by the way, hilt is the only thing that can be used for actual blocking.

This "hold back" thing gets old, if Luke holds back, it doesn't mean that he holds back on speed.

This:
"That's enough." Luke advanced, activating his own lightsaber. Valin raised his in a preliminary block. Luke struck, twitching his blade out of the most obvious line of attack, and the blade sheared the hilt of Valin's weapon in two, not harming him.

Valin's blade switched off as the weapon's lower half dropped into the darkened urban chasm below. Valin took a step back, the last step he could afford before dropping off the front of the speeder, but Luke's advance was near instantaneous. The Grand Master slammed the butt of his own weapon into Valin's temple.

Luke held back on Valin, yet, took full advantage of his superior speed to incapacitate him without any harm.
Luke had his shoto in first fight with Lumiya, yet, couldn't do a thing to her because he didn't have significant speed advantage.

Moreover, Lumiya is not the only example, where Luke's speed can be compared. We have fight with Nyax.

Let me remind of his feats.

1. His strength was so enormous that single strike could knock Yuuzhan Vong over and drive Luke back.

2. His speed was such that he dodged Voxin and cut him in two with single slash. In comparison for Anakin's strike team killing Voxin was a "routine work" and they acted in combined effort.

3. Apart from super strength and super speed he, also, was equiped with 8 lightsabers.

Yet, Mara and Tahiri performed as good as Luke against him. The only thing that makes Luke stand out is that he managed to kick Nyax ones throughout entire fight.

I am willing to concede that Bane might be as fast as Sidious or Luke, despite the fact that he is less powerful. After all it's normal for less powerful characters to match speed of superior ones:
Dooku/Yoda, Dooku/Anakin, Sidious/Windu, Mara/Jacen and the most obvious ones Luke/Abeloth and Kenobi/Anakin.

But it is unreasonable to assume that Bane's speed is superior to everyone because of a non-combat feat that comes from an author in who's book average lightning turns into ash instantly.

I appreciate your general point, but it really doesn't negate the recurring inconsistency: sometimes Force users are matched by weaker or non-Force users; other times, they're blitzed by much more powerful Force users. If your quest is to make complete sense of it, you'll be at this for a while.

Originally posted by Arhael
Wow, really? Holding back in murderous mood?

Luke tried to cut off his own nephew's head at first possible opportunity for torturing his son. Why on earth he would hold back on a non-relative that killed his wife and who he wholeheartedly intended to kill? How does it make sence at all???

Er, no. I said that I would say that Luke was holding back as he usually is, however he was gunning for blood in that fight, so I will not say that.

Originally posted by Arhael
So blocking with hilt means she wasn't fast enough?



No, blocking with the hilt means that she was fast enough. Learn to read, noobzilla.

So now I'm wondering where exactly the idea that Luke is the best lightsaber duelist in the mythos comes from.

Is it purely based on Dark Empire I wonder?

\/ Cuz she kinda sucks?

So back on topic: any credible arguments as to why Dooku should be able to survive Bane's successor?

Because he's better? stoned



Here's a starting point.

I told you 2 pages ago that I was reading through it. There's nothing there that makes him stand out imo. I'm pretty sure Silver didn't put in any speed feats beyond the DE-era though. Hell, most of them are from before RotJ.

It's not complete. I'd check his posting history.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So now I'm wondering where exactly the idea that Luke is the best lightsaber duelist in the mythos comes from.

Is it purely based on Dark Empire I wonder?

\/ Cuz she kinda sucks?

I know, it's kind of interesting - in the Revenge of the Sith novel, Mace's speed is said to be that of two dozen lightsabers at once.

In The Unifying Force - the height of the NJO novels, Luke's speed is said to be that of twenty lightsabers at once.

So going off visual speed, it would seem that Mace Windu was still faster than NJO Luke.

If Mace was only "four lightsaber swings" faster than Luke, though, that means Sidious was likely somewhere just beneath Mace's speed.

Luke beat Sidious earlier on, meaning his speed would have had to have been comparable to Mace's, which would seemingly mean that his speed in between DE and NJO didn't increase by that much.

Interesting thoughts to think about.

But progressively, Luke has probably gotten faster since NJO and likely has surpassed Mace's speed by a significant margin; I'm sure there's probably a speed feat in the FotJ series that points to that.

As far as being the greatest duelist ever, that is interesting to think about..

The three fastest, indicated by Canon, are Mace, Bane and Luke.

It would be intriguing to have someone calc how many swings Bane would have to quickly and continuously make, per second, to make it so every incoming raindrop, in a violent downpour, would never touch him.

It's likely he'd be up there with Mace's speed.

It could be that Luke is the greatest - but only marginally, over the others.

Thus explaining why Luke still had a very rough time against Caedus, Lumiya, etc.

Originally posted by Rookwood
I know, it's kind of interesting - in the Revenge of the Sith novel, Mace's speed is said to be that of two dozen lightsabers at once.

In The Unifying Force - the height of the NJO novels, Luke's speed is said to be that of twenty lightsabers at once.

So going off visual speed, it would seem that Mace Windu was still faster than NJO Luke.

If Mace was only "four lightsaber swings" faster than Luke, though, that means Sidious was likely somewhere just beneath Mace's speed.

Luke beat Sidious earlier on, meaning his speed would have had to have been comparable to Mace's, which would seemingly mean that his speed in between DE and NJO didn't increase by that much.



Sidious was faster than Mace. Mace seemed like he was vanishing in and out of existence, but he was still at a speed where Skywalker could see him and recognize him. Wheres Sidious is just described as a "Blur of Speed" by both Skywalker and Windu.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious was faster than Mace. Mace seemed like he was vanishing in and out of existence, but he was still at a speed where Skywalker could see him and recognize him. Wheres Sidious is just described as a "Blur of Speed" by both Skywalker and Windu.

Mace was faster than Sidious.

Fast enough to keep up with him; defend against all his attacks - and fast enough to slice his lightsaber in two/kick him down.

Mace's weapon was so fast, it seemed as if it were coming from all directions at once - multi-directional combat, very useful; very dominating.

Mace was faster than Sidious, but only by a little bit. Hence Sidious being somewhere below Mace's two dozen swings.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Mace was faster than Sidious.
Bullshit. Sidious feared to fall out of window and Windu took advantage of that fear. It was circumstantial victory.

"Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete.

Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half."

Originally posted by Arhael
Bullshit. Sidious feared to fall out of window and Windu took advantage of that fear. It was circumstantial victory.

"Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete.

Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half."

Yah - I noticed that part beforehand.

If Sidious had been faster than Mace - he would have blocked that slash, and returned in kind.

But Mace was quicker than him, and Sidious lost.

No one argued that Sidious is faster than Windu. The fought at equal speed in prolonged fight right until Sidious became slower as result of partially redirecting his effort.

Originally posted by Arhael
No one argued that Sidious is faster than Windu. The fought at equal speed in prolonged fight right until Sidious became slower as result of partially redirecting his effort.

Wrong.

Also: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.

They both had to fight at a reduced speed, to stay on the ledge.

And with Mace forced to slow himself down as well, he was still quicker.

Mace was still faster than Sidious.

And Sidious, lost.

Originally posted by Rookwood

They both had to fight at a reduced speed, to stay on the ledge.

No

Originally posted by Arhael
No



You're somethin' special.

he angled the battle to bring them both out

Mace was still faster.

Although, then again, seeing as how he was victorious anyway, I'd think that even the most mentally-challenged of people, would already understand this.

But there is always one mentally-challenged person I underestimate: Ahrael.

Emotions is the reason of outcome of the fight, not the speed.

"in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge."

Originally posted by Arhael
Emotions is the reason of outcome of the fight, not the speed.

"in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge."

Yeah, he angled the battle to bring them out onto a place where their footwork would be slowed, to compensate for the slippery surface.

But aside from foot-speed - there is striking-speed. (Speed with arms/hands)

While inside the Office, Sidious still couldn't strike Mace, and had to move around, while Mace defended against everything.

Then, out in the rain, with the footwork of both fighters slowed, deliberately - it came down to striking/defense speed of both.

And Sidious was slower.

And he was slower because he partially redirected his effort as novel clearly states.

Fact is that they had dead even fight for long time.

"But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse."

"Impasse" as novel states.

Gonna agree with Arhael here. The two are perfect equals in the fight due to Vaapad but when Sidious reduced his speed slightly Mace was able to capitalize on that. Just because Mace was also fighting on the ledge doesn't mean that he similarly redirected some of his efforts in Force Speed.

They were dead even in the fight. But Sidious was actually moving faster from Anakin's perspective IIRC.

Mace also "Accepts the furious speed of the Sith Lord," and also describes him as a "Blur of Speed," IIRC.

Will have to re-check when I'm home. But that would suggest Sidious was faster.

Either way, Rockwood you have Zero evidence to say Mace was faster.

Indeed, Mace is in fact slower, and only through Vaapad is he able to equal Sidious' speed.

Originally posted by Arhael
And he was slower because he partially redirected his effort as novel clearly states.

he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.

- "Redirected his effort" meaning just that he essentially backed Palpatine out onto the ledge.

And out on the ledge, Mace also proved to be faster there.



Originally posted by Arhael

Fact is that they had dead even fight for long time.

"But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse."

"Impasse" as novel states.

And then it continues with: Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift. The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.

and then towards the end,

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced


Palpatine was smart enough to know he was going to eventually lose - whether it was to the younger, more powerful Jedi Master's speed, or the Shatterpoint technique - or both.

And it was both, that did him in.

Mace was faster.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Indeed, Mace is in fact slower, and only through Vaapad is he able to equal Sidious' speed.

Correct. Mace without Vapaad-speed, is indeed slower than Sidious.

But with "Vapaad-speed" as Mace exhibited to Kar Vastor, Mace becomes virtually invisible, etc.

Speed-enhancing Vapaad is what enabled Mace to defeat Sidious.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Correct. Mace without Vapaad-speed, is indeed slower than Sidious.

But with "Vapaad-speed" as Mace exhibited to Kar Vastor, Mace becomes virtually invisible, etc.

Speed-enhancing Vapaad is what enabled Mace to defeat Sidious.

That's not what Nephthys meant.

He was suggesting that Mace is only that fast when fighting Sidious. Against anyone else he would be slower than Sidious- referring to that whole stupid and confusing superconducting loop crap.

In any case he was an even match for Sidious. What allowed him to defeat Sidious was Shatterpoint and being more tactically minded in combat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They were dead even in the fight. But Sidious was actually moving faster from Anakin's perspective IIRC.

Mace also "Accepts the furious speed of the Sith Lord," and also describes him as a "Blur of Speed," IIRC.

Will have to re-check when I'm home. But that would suggest Sidious was faster.

Either way, Rockwood you have Zero evidence to say Mace was faster.
How about the fact that he won the fight, Dumbass?


Anyway, the novel points out that Mace's lightsaber moved so fast it was like two dozen blades a second and that it attacked from all directions.

Sidious was a blur because he was trying to keep from being chopped up - and then later realized he was going to lose.

Because Mace was the faster fighter.

Originally posted by Rookwood
How about the fact that he won the fight, Dumbass?

So people only win fights because their faster??

Forget skills, strength, tactics and talents like Shatterpoint. It's always just speed?


Originally posted by Rookwood
Anyway, the novel points out that Mace's lightsaber moved so fast it was like two dozen blades a second and that it attacked from all directions.

Sidious was a blur because he was trying to keep from being chopped up - and then later realized he was going to lose.

Because Mace was the faster fighter.

Yeah nice babble. Only problem is it's all made up.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced
Both felt that fight was approaching the end, yet, neither knew what would be the outcome. Shatterpoint was useless exercise, it led Windu to Anakin and he was clueless what that meant.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's not what Nephthys meant.

He was suggesting that Mace is only that fast when fighting Sidious. Against anyone else he would be slower than Sidious- referring to that whole stupid and confusing superconducting loop crap.

Nephthys wouldn't suggest that; he's not a water-head, like you.

Also:

Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade,that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

Vapaad-speed is Vapaad-speed.

Mace can feed off his own darkness, as well as the darkness of others, if need be.

Against other foes, like Kar Vastor, he produced similar speed.

So no, he feeds off energy, but his speed will always be extremely fast.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

In any case he was an even match for Sidious. What allowed him to defeat Sidious was Shatterpoint and being more tactically minded in combat.

No - ultimately, it was his speed.

When Mace backed Palpatine out onto the slippery ledge, where they both continued the battle; they had to deliberately slow their footwork to keep a grip on the ledge - and relied on their arm/hand speed to strike and defend.

And there, Mace was faster, and Palpatine, too slow to defend against Mace's slash.

Even within the Office, using Vapaad to soak up Sidious power, and being physically younger and stronger, Mace would have outlasted and out-moved Palpatine, anyway.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So people only win fights because their faster??

Forget skills, strength, tactics and talents like Shatterpoint. It's always just speed?

Speed is the main component.

You may be strong; you may have much technique, but it's all meaningless if you can't touch your opponent.

If Sidious had been fast enough with his arms/hands on the ledge, he would have blocked Mace's slash and countered.

But Mace was too fast, and Sidious was too slow.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Yeah nice babble. Only problem is it's all made up.

Mace's blade was, an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear.