Bor vs P5 Emma Frost

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keiththegreat
Who wins? No BFR.

DarkOdin
Bor would thrash her hard but he has no answer for her regenaration.

P5 Emma for a solid 8/10

Bor gets 2 by using some sort of magic vodoo

zopzop
Possibly P5 Emma Frost. If all Bor is gonna do is punch her, he's in for a long ass fight. She'll just reform and if she EVER remembers that she's a host to 1/5 of universal/multiversal psionic being, she'll just rearrange his molecules and turn him into toilet paper or a snowflake (again).

guy222
emma in a stomp

JakeTheBank
Tbh, I don't how she's going to put Bor down for the count, either.

Guy was durable enough to cause Mjolnir to shatter upon striking him hard enough.

zopzop
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Tbh, I don't how she's going to put Bor down for the count, either.

Guy was durable enough to cause Mjolnir to shatter upon striking him hard enough.
Yet got turned into a snowflake by Loki. Neither side is gonna win by punching each other.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by zopzop
Yet got turned into a snowflake by Loki. Neither side is gonna win by punching each other.

Who prepped for it and took advantage that Bor's defenses were lowered.

If Bor goes into his planetary destruction/"unleashed" mode, it probably won't bode well for Emma.

zopzop
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Who prepped for it and took advantage that Bor's defenses were lowered.

If Bor goes into his planetary destruction/"unleashed" mode, it probably won't bode well for Emma.
Fine, what happened after Bor realized he was being turned into a snowflake? Nothing. He couldn't resist AND he couldn't undo it. He was stuck in snowflake form till he was freed by another person.

Planetary destruction is over rated. Surfer and Morg devastated an entire solar system yet Surfer can't even put Thor down. P5 Emma made him her b|tch, literally.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by zopzop
Fine, what happened after Bor realized he was being turned into a snowflake? Nothing. He couldn't resist AND he couldn't undo it. He was stuck in snowflake form till he was freed by another person.

Planetary destruction is over rated. Surfer and Morg devastated an entire solar system yet Surfer can't even put Thor down. P5 Emma made him her b|tch, literally.

That's more of an incredibly high feat for Loki than it is a mark against the likes of Bor.

P5 Emma beat the crap out of Thor. Bor would have outright killed him even while Thor blocked his strike with Mjolnir if not for the Odinforce. He hadn't even tapped into his full power, yet. Entirely different leagues, imo.

Destroying the planet in of itself isn't the impressive part about Bor being "unleashed". If anything, it was merely an aftereffect of him merely tapping into his energy like something out of Dragonball Z. In any case, a guy capable of one shot killing Odin Force-less Thor and putting OF Thor through the ringer more so than the Destroyer Armor and causing Mjolnir to shatter upon hitting him is pretty goddamn powerful.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
That's more of an incredibly high feat for Loki than it is a mark against the likes of Bor.
For a guy who's been able to freeze the very Abstract embodiment of Death(it was point of contention for more than three comic book issues), turning a high-trans/low-skyfather(depending on where one puts Bor) character into a snowflake is hardly a high feat imo.
Edit:
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
a guy capable of one shot killing Odin Force-less Thor
Based on what? A statement? Hardly conclusive, when beings far more powerful than Bor have failed to put down Thor for the count on-panel. And they used more than one-shots.

zopzop
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
That's more of an incredibly high feat for Loki than it is a mark against the likes of Bor.

P5 Emma beat the crap out of Thor. Bor would have outright killed him even while Thor blocked his strike with Mjolnir if not for the Odinforce. He hadn't even tapped into his full power, yet. Entirely different leagues, imo.

Destroying the planet in of itself isn't the impressive part about Bor being "unleashed". If anything, it was merely an aftereffect of him merely tapping into his energy like something out of Dragonball Z. In any case, a guy capable of one shot killing Odin Force-less Thor and putting OF Thor through the ringer more so than the Destroyer Armor and causing Mjolnir to shatter upon hitting him is pretty goddamn powerful.
Again, this is all physical assaults, which meant nothing to P5 Emma. And if you want to talk about untapped power, I'd go with hosting 1/5 of the universal/multiversal embodiment of psionic energy over anything Bor could marshal.

P5 Emma wins.

Glorificus
Emma.

She should win via godly telepathy too. That whole "looking into the mind of a god" crap that kept her from turning Thor into a vegetable was riddled with PIS. Especially when she's host to a cosmic force way beyond Odin, and the mere fact that Xavier knocked out Thor with ease in a separate issue.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Glorificus
Emma.

She should win via godly telepathy too. That whole "looking into the mind of a god" crap that kept her from turning Thor into a vegetable was riddled with PIS. Especially when she's host to a cosmic force way beyond Odin, and the mere fact that Xavier knocked out Thor with ease in a separate issue.
She was trying to mind-control him while Xavier telepathically KOed Thor. While I get your point and agree with it, these 2 actions are somewhat different imo. Thor has traditionally fared well against mind-control anyways, so there's that.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
For a guy who's been able to freeze the very Abstract embodiment of Death(it was point of contention for more than three comic book issues), turning a high-trans/low-skyfather(depending on where one puts Bor) character into a snowflake is hardly a high feat imo.
Edit:

Based on what? A statement? Hardly conclusive, when beings far more powerful than Bor have failed to put down Thor for the count on-panel. And they used more than one-shots.

I didn't say it was his highest feat ever now, did I? It's a high feat for Loki as Loki doesn't go around turning trans/skyfathers (let alone higher than that) into snow conventionally.

Based on the statement, writer intent, and the very clear distinction in power from Thor and Odin Force Thor. Sure, Thor has crazy high end feats where he's taken punishment beyond the likes of Bor and has survived and even stayed conscious. Doesn't detract from what the comic and JMS is clearly trying to tell us.

If were doing that, we may as well render Emma's win over him as inconsequential, due to Thor having endured greater punishment than Emma and stayed conscious. That would be stupid and unfair to both characters, imo.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by zopzop
Again, this is all physical assaults, which meant nothing to P5 Emma. And if you want to talk about untapped power, I'd go with hosting 1/5 of the universal/multiversal embodiment of psionic energy over anything Bor could marshal.

P5 Emma wins.

Emma still has to do shit on panel with said power instead of merely being attributed to what she should or could do on panel.

On panel, Bor would have killed the same Thor that was fighting her and would have won if not for her regeneration.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Glorificus
Emma.

She should win via godly telepathy too. That whole "looking into the mind of a god" crap that kept her from turning Thor into a vegetable was riddled with PIS. Especially when she's host to a cosmic force way beyond Odin, and the mere fact that Xavier knocked out Thor with ease in a separate issue.

How is it PIS when Thor has more than a few instances of resisting telepathy outside of AvX?

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I didn't say it was his highest feat ever now, did I? It's a high feat for Loki as Loki doesn't go around turning trans/skyfathers (let alone higher than that) into snow conventionally.

The point is that if Loki could achieve it, and if Emma does use her powers intelligently, then its absolutely within the realm of possibility.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Based on the statement, writer intent, and the very clear distinction in power from Thor and Odin Force Thor. Sure, Thor has crazy high end feats where he's taken punishment beyond the likes of Bor and has survived and even stayed conscious. Doesn't detract from what the comic and JMS is clearly trying to tell us.

If were doing that, we may as well render Emma's win over him as inconsequential, due to Thor having endured greater punishment than Emma and stayed conscious. That would be stupid and unfair to both characters, imo.
It appears you're confused what my issue was with that snippet from your post. Your claim that he could have one-shot killed Thor based on mere statements clearly didn't sit well with me and I gave my reasoning as to why I disagreed. I am not disputing whether he could kill OF-less Thor or not, I am disputing the fact that he could do it in a one-shot, which is a fairly large claim to make based on only statements. I am sure that you understand my position since you held a similar stance when someone claimed in another thread once that Superman Prime could one-shot kill Thor, and you took issue with it.

In lieu of Thor's low end feats during that same time period, I doubt one can disregard the Emma instance at all. The Phoenix Force has been considered more or less a peer to beings such as Galactus and Celestials anyways, so a being empowered by 1/5th of the entity being able to beat Thor isn't an outlandish idea too imo.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Emma still has to do shit on panel with said power instead of merely being attributed to what she should or could do on panel.

Is it just me or did you miss the part where Zop was referring to that particular comparison as untapped power?

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How is it PIS when Thor has more than a few instances of resisting telepathy outside of AvX?
While Thor's feats of resisting mind-control clearly make such a scenario plausible, I can understand the other side of the story as well, since Emma has historically been considered a telepathic peer to the likes of Xavier and Jean.

Normal Emma being unable to affect Thor is understandable, but I can see why 1/5th of Phoenix Force amped Emma being unable to do the same(to Rulk as well) would rile up X-fans enough for them to dismiss it as PIS.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
The point is that if Loki could achieve it, and if Emma does use her powers intelligently, then its absolutely within the realm of possibility.

It appears you're confused what my issue was with that snippet from your post. Your claim that he could have one-shot killed Thor based on mere statements clearly didn't sit well with me and I gave my reasoning as to why I disagreed. I am not disputing whether he could kill OF-less Thor or not, I am disputing the fact that he could do it in a one-shot, which is a fairly large claim to make based on only statements. I am sure that you understand my position since you held a similar stance when someone claimed in another thread once that Superman Prime could one-shot kill Thor, and you took issue with it.

In lieu of Thor's low end feats during that same time period, I doubt one can disregard the Emma instance at all. The Phoenix Force has been considered more or less a peer to beings such as Galactus and Celestials anyways, so a being empowered by 1/5th of the entity being able to beat Thor isn't an outlandish idea too imo.

Is it just me or did you miss the part where Zop was referring to that particular comparison as untapped power?

Based on what? Loki only did so to Bor because he had prep and got the jump on him. What did Emma do to give you the idea she could replicate such a feat in the midst of combat?

It's not based off of mere statements, but rather how JMS presented Odin Force Thor in comparison to regular Thor. The Destroyer Armor, which has actually killed Thor on panel, merely gave OF Thor burns when it used its same attack. Bor pushed OF Thor even more than that. Ergo, statement or not, it's definitely not a baseless one or one made without any sort of backing.

And yet, Thor's endured greater punishment than from someone possessed by 1/5 of the PF entity. By all rights, based on feats alone instead of using things such as character comparison, writer intent, statements, and comics as a whole instead of just feats, Thor enduring a "merciless" barrage of Celestials should ensure that he should laugh at everything thrown his way under that level. But that would be stupid as shit to do.

It's speculation at best, though, which is fine to do, but really that's all it is.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
While Thor's feats of resisting mind-control clearly make such a scenario plausible, I can understand the other side of the story as well, since Emma has historically been considered a telepathic peer to the likes of Xavier and Jean.

Normal Emma being unable to affect Thor is understandable, but I can see why 1/5th of Phoenix Force amped Emma being unable to do the same(to Rulk as well) would rile up X-fans enough for them to dismiss it as PIS.

I can see why they'd be mad and decry it as PIS if they weren't aware of or ignored Thor's history of dealing with telepathy and mental based attacks/intrusions.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I can see why they'd be mad and decry it as PIS if they weren't aware of or ignored Thor's history of dealing with telepathy and mental based attacks/intrusions.
The point isn't as much about Thor's history of tp resistance feats(something which I acknowledged in my previous post), as much as it is about Emma getting nerfed. Or do you agree that Rulk's tp resistance is on par with Thor's?
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It's not based off of mere statements, but rather how JMS presented Odin Force Thor in comparison to regular Thor. The Destroyer Armor, which has actually killed Thor on panel, merely gave OF Thor burns when it used its same attack. Bor pushed OF Thor even more than that. Ergo, statement or not, it's definitely not a baseless one or one made without any sort of backing.

And yet, Thor's endured greater punishment than from someone possessed by 1/5 of the PF entity. By all rights, based on feats alone instead of using things such as character comparison, writer intent, statements, and comics as a whole instead of just feats, Thor enduring a "merciless" barrage of Celestials should ensure that he should laugh at everything thrown his way under that level. But that would be stupid as shit to do.

It's speculation at best, though, which is fine to do, but really that's all it is.
So you really think that Bor can one-shot kill Thor? I find that hard to believe, seeing how you were the same guy arguing against Superman Prime being able to do the same thing to Thor in another thread.

It would mean a lot except for the fact that Ben Grimm also survived a kill-shot from Celestials quite recently. So it basically comes down what level the PF is at in comparison to Celestials? Well, since the PF easily overpowered/destroyed a being empowered by the energies of one of the strongest Celestials in canon, there's that. As I said before, 1/5th of it being able KO a Thor who's been jobbed left and right in non-Thor titles, that too after a prolonged fight isn't an outlandish idea imo.

OK. I was just trying to make it up to my buddy zop for all the times I truthfully insulted him of being a lowballing hypocrite, by arguing his debate for him. I guess I'll leave it to him to take care of himself from now on.

TheGodKiller
Forgot this one:
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Based on what? Loki only did so to Bor because he had prep and got the jump on him. What did Emma do to give you the idea she could replicate such a feat in the midst of combat?
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I was just trying to make it up to my buddy zop for all the times I truthfully insulted him of being a lowballing hypocrite, by arguing his debate for him. I guess I'll leave it to him to take care of himself from now on.

DarkOdin
Well to addd to this old debate about Bor being able to oneshot Classic Thor.

Fact classic Thor was killed by the destroyers visor beams

Fact Odinforce Thor tanked it with no damaged

Fact Bor did more damaged to odinforce Thor then the destoryer's beam did

Thors admits the odinforce was used and he still was injuried

Bor is a beast

Sundipped
This is simple:

Bor puts up a decent fight against 1/5 PF Emma until she uses all her abilities to the fullest capacity however.....

Emma with 1/2 of the force prison rapes Bor to the point he can't control his defecation.

nwg202
Imo.. Xavier talking out thor and p5 namor effortlessly really screwed everything up. Rulk tanking p5 emma was another really bad showing.
Wasn't Xenmu able to mind control Rulk as well?

Apparently Xavier and Xenmu > then omega level telepath amped by 1/5 of the PF. Sinster's Maddie clones were tearing through mag's helmet and psy defenses like a hot knife through butter.

I really have no idea why PF emma of all people was turned into a brawler. She should have been mindraping people left and right.

Telepathy was the biggest jobber of avx everyone and their mother had tp resistance.

It can also be said that the P5 were all holding back. Colossus told kitty if he really wanted to he could just kill and bring everyone from the dead after.

zopzop
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Emma still has to do shit on panel with said power instead of merely being attributed to what she should or could do on panel.

On panel, Bor would have killed the same Thor that was fighting her and would have won if not for her regeneration.
You realize she didn't want to kill Thor right? Because she could have easily if she wanted to.


See? This is a CLASSIC example of PIS/CIS. Thor survived an assault that slagged the 2000ft Destroyer! Thor actually managed to chip one of the Celestial's armor while the combined power of THREE SKYFATHERS couldn't even scratch one.

Sundipped
Originally posted by nwg202
Imo.. Xavier talking out thor and p5 namor effortlessly really screwed everything up. Rulk tanking p5 emma was another really bad showing.
Wasn't Xenmu able to mind control Rulk as well?

Apparently Xavier and Xenmu > then omega level telepath amped by 1/5 of the PF. Sinster's Maddie clones were tearing through mag's helmet and psy defenses like a hot knife through butter.

I really have no idea why PF emma of all people was turned into a brawler. She should have been mindraping people left and right.

Telepathy was the biggest jobber of avx everyone and their mother had tp resistance.

It can also be said that the P5 were all holding back. Colossus told kitty if he really wanted to he could just kill and bring everyone from the dead after.

Correct.
The whole Phoenix 5 team held back thru the entire event.

Thor was one shotted how many times with ease?
Spidey's life was spared after he got brutally pummeled.
Erik was stuck and couldn't even move.
Scott played with Galadiator trying to talk sense to him.
Namor snapped Rulks arm like a twig.
One punch from Colossus wrecked Gladiator.

You get the picture.
All this stuff was done effortlessly.

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkOdin
Well to addd to this old debate about Bor being able to oneshot Classic Thor.

Fact classic Thor was killed by the destroyers visor beams

Fact Odinforce Thor tanked it with no damaged

Fact Bor did more damaged to odinforce Thor then the destoryer's beam did

Thors admits the odinforce was used and he still was injuried

Bor is a beast

Energy blasts=/= physical strikes
The two can't be compared when arguing whether Bor can kill Thor with a single strike (not blast).

ODG
Bor.

P5 Emma was clearly superior, physically, to normal Thor. She could, and did, beat him down with a rain of blows after her diamond storm attack.

Bor was also clearly superior, physically, to normal Thor -- since he took an Odinforce-amped Thor to the limits of his endurance (and beyond the limits of Mjolnir). But a holding back Bor broke Odinforce Thor's ribs with a single shot, which would have killed unamped Thor. P5 Emma certainly never one-shotted Thor or was implied to have such power.

And I don't see a Phoenix-diamond storm (P5 Emma's most impressive feat/attack) doing as much damage to a god who is literally harder than Mjolnir. She'd get busted by Bor (since Thor did it) and she'd likely reform, but it'd be irresponsible to assume she could reform without limit. And as I've just been reminded, P5 Emma's telepathy is rather useless against gods.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by ODG
Bor.

P5 Emma was clearly superior, physically, to normal Thor. She could, and did, beat him down with a rain of blows after her diamond storm attack.

Bor was also clearly superior, physically, to normal Thor -- since he took an Odinforce-amped Thor to the limits of his endurance (and beyond the limits of Mjolnir). But a holding back Bor broke Odinforce Thor's ribs with a single shot, which would have killed unamped Thor. P5 Emma certainly never one-shotted Thor or was implied to have such power.

And I don't see a Phoenix-diamond storm (P5 Emma's most impressive feat/attack) doing as much damage to a god who is literally harder than Mjolnir. She'd get busted by Bor (since Thor did it) and she'd likely reform, but it'd be irresponsible to assume she could reform without limit. And as I've just been reminded, P5 Emma's telepathy is rather useless against gods.

QFT.

Mshinu
P5 Emma gets axed. She wasn`t that impressive.

janus77
Emma stomps grand-dad like she stomped Thor.

The Sorrow
Problem with Emma is she sucked as 1/5 of PF, she got smashed into pieces by Thor, failed to mind control 2 mid/high heralds, messed up by Warbird, got punked by Quicksilver etc. She didn't show enough offensive power for me. Bor wins.

h1a8
Originally posted by ODG
Bor.

P5 Emma was clearly superior, physically, to normal Thor. She could, and did, beat him down with a rain of blows after her diamond storm attack.

Bor was also clearly superior, physically, to normal Thor -- since he took an Odinforce-amped Thor to the limits of his endurance (and beyond the limits of Mjolnir). But a holding back Bor broke Odinforce Thor's ribs with a single shot, which would have killed unamped Thor. P5 Emma certainly never one-shotted Thor or was implied to have such power.

And I don't see a Phoenix-diamond storm (P5 Emma's most impressive feat/attack) doing as much damage to a god who is literally harder than Mjolnir. She'd get busted by Bor (since Thor did it) and she'd likely reform, but it'd be irresponsible to assume she could reform without limit. And as I've just been reminded, P5 Emma's telepathy is rather useless against gods.


Even though your argument supports Bor being physically superior to Emma it still doesn't explain how he would win. She can reform over and over. There's nothing lasting he can do to her. IMO, She is powerful enough to hurt and affect Bor. Thinking otherwise is asinine.

Sundipped
Originally posted by The Sorrow
Problem with Emma is she sucked as 1/5 of PF, she got smashed into pieces by Thor, failed to mind control 2 mid/high heralds, messed up by Warbird, got punked by Quicksilver etc. She didn't show enough offensive power for me. Bor wins.

Yeah she got smashed but look what she had those smashed pieces do to him afterwards. That point is moot.
Warbird's attack had no lasting effect whatsoever.
Are you saying Quicksilver actually stands a chance against a PF avatar in a all out fight? Forum setting OR comic book? Really???
Lack of tp effectiveness (capital PIS btw) is not a must have tactic that would be relative to this fight.

The Sorrow
Originally posted by Sundipped
Yeah she got smashed but look what she had those smashed pieces do to him afterwards. That point is moot.
Warbird's attack had no lasting effect whatsoever.
Are you saying Quicksilver actually stands a chance against a PF avatar in a all out fight? Forum setting OR comic book? Really???
Lack of tp effectiveness (capital PIS btw) is not a must have tactic that would be relative to this fight.
What was the point of this post? You aren't really saying anything except trying to spin her low showings.

Bor is far more durable than regular Thor. If Thor can essentially out-muscle her and smash her into pieces Bor is going to do a helluva lot worse.

Despite having a supposed huge amp in power the only impressive thing I can remember her doing was reforming to ko Thor. It's going to take a lot more than that beat Bor.

Sundipped
Originally posted by The Sorrow
What was the point of this post? You aren't really saying anything except trying to spin her low showings.

Bor is far more durable than regular Thor. If Thor can essentially out-muscle her and smash her into pieces Bor is going to do a helluva lot worse.

Despite having a supposed huge amp in power the only impressive thing I can remember her doing was reforming to ko Thor. It's going to take a lot more than that beat Bor.

I'm not trying to "spin" anything. How is any of what I just explained a low showing? Rather, your description of those events has a lowball like feel to it.

Why are you reiterating Emma being smashed? That won't register a auto win against her being infused with the PF. And on the contrary, she outmuscled Thor after that happened.

You didn't see anything impressive because no one she faced required her to extend the upper limits of her power. There was no need. 1/5 of the PF power is sufficient enough to 1 shot ko a legitimate high herald. The reason this fight was as long as it was, was because it occurred in the AvX vs tie in series in which the entire comic was dedicated to having prolonged fights.

The Sorrow
Then why even reply to my post? Nothing I stated was a lie or exaggeration. She got punked by Q'silver, iirc she was momentarily taken out of the fight against the Sh'iar by Warbird, smashed by Thor etc etc. These all happened on panel in the same event that's not lowballing. I already mentioned her taking down Thor but afaik that's the most impressive thing she did.

You're missing the point. If a high herald can destroy her body in it's hardened form what do you think a trans tier or above being is going to do? She can't stay human so when Bor breaks her she's going to be vulnerable.

I'd agree somewhat but we can't judge beyond what was depicted on panel, especially with 2 characters who have no history together and have very limited appearances. We don't know just how much power Emma had in reserve, if any, but it works both ways in this case.

What we do know for 100% certain is that what Emma DID show as P5 wasn't enough to stop Bor.

ODG
Originally posted by Sundipped
1/5 of the PF power is sufficient enough to 1 shot ko a legitimate high herald. She never one-shot koed any high herald???

Sundipped
Originally posted by The Sorrow
Then why even reply to my post? Nothing I stated was a lie or exaggeration. She got punked by Q'silver, iirc she was momentarily taken out of the fight against the Sh'iar by Warbird, smashed by Thor etc etc. These all happened on panel in the same event that's not lowballing. I already mentioned her taking down Thor but afaik that's the most impressive thing she did.

You're missing the point. If a high herald can destroy her body in it's hardened form what do you think a trans tier or above being is going to do? She can't stay human so when Bor breaks her she's going to be vulnerable.

I'd agree somewhat but we can't judge beyond what was depicted on panel, especially with 2 characters who have no history together and have very limited appearances. We don't know just how much power Emma had in reserve, if any, but it works both ways in this case.

What we do know for 100% certain is that what Emma DID show as P5 wasn't enough to stop Bor.

This is a case where you have to apply common logic. My whole point from the beginning is that the cases you mention aren't low feats the way you're making it seem. This is obvious nitpicking in an attempt to discredit Emma. Those events have absolutely NO bearing on what would happen in a all out battle. Especially in a forum setting. They aren't even worth mentioning. At he drop of a dime she could transmute either Warbird or Pietro. Hell, she barbecued Clint without even trying.

And what's the big deal about Bor smashing the diamond form? No doubt he can do it but as you can see here, Emma has total molecular control of her smashed bodyparts. She went out into orbit and made it rain like a strip club. So no this isn't a vulnerable state.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12644161_ZONE-EMPIRE-018.JPG

All you need is a little common sense. With her amp, she is well within the realm of duplicating everything Namor and Scott did. Just because she chose to use that particular method to best Thor doesn't mean she couldn't have done it easier. She even said she expected more of a challenge from him, meaning his efforts were complete weaksauce....even in the VS series where the fights were meant to be drawn out over an extended period.

At any rate, if you want to take the "well we didn't see her do anything
monumental so it's unlikely she could do something of that nature" stance then be my guest. We have other hosts running off the same exact amp in terms of potency and amount to use as a measuring stick.

Sundipped
Originally posted by ODG
She never one-shot koed any high herald???

For me, she doesn't have to for me to know that she can.

Konton
Laura couldn't cut her.

mad

ODG
Originally posted by Sundipped
For me, she doesn't have to for me to know that she can. My eyebrow is raised, but you are entitled to your opinion. Either way, giving P5 Emma full faith and credit to oneshot ko a high herald doesnt exactly stack favorably against Bor who, should you also be giving him full faith and credit, can one shot kill high heralds.

Not sure how you get around that.

Sundipped
Originally posted by ODG
My eyebrow is raised, but you are entitled to your opinion. Either way, giving P5 Emma full faith and credit to oneshot ko a high herald doesnt exactly stack favorably against Bor who, should you also be giving him full faith and credit, can one shot kill high heralds.

Not sure how you get around that.

It does stack favorably if you consider the version of Emma with 1/2 of the force (op didn't specify or limit this to just Emma with only 1/5 of the power).

Basic logic would indicate that it's plausible for her to one shot kill a herald at that level even though it wasn't explicitly shown. You have to agree that a non holding back shot of that magnitude would be far more devastating than what 1/5 of the power holding back did to Thor by a host with the same amp.

zopzop
Debating anything regarding AvX is pretty much a waste of time. Did any of you guys/gals see that Comicbook Resources Forum post about the leaked notes behind the AvX storyline?

Clusterfxxk is the word that comes to mind. I think TheGodKiller linked to it in the Character Ownage Thread.

Sundipped
Originally posted by zopzop
Debating anything regarding AvX is pretty much a waste of time. Did any of you guys/gals see that Comicbook Resources Forum post about the leaked notes behind the AvX storyline?

Clusterfxxk is the word that comes to mind. I think TheGodKiller linked to it in the Character Ownage Thread.

What page is the link on?
Better yet, could you post it? It would save me the trouble of having to search.

DarkOdin
Originally posted by zopzop
You realize she didn't want to kill Thor right? Because she could have easily if she wanted to.


See? This is a CLASSIC example of PIS/CIS. Thor survived an assault that slagged the 2000ft Destroyer! Thor actually managed to chip one of the Celestial's armor while the combined power of THREE SKYFATHERS couldn't even scratch one. Not reaaly seeing Thor got zapped what once or twice by a celestial and which the destroyer took many many blast for the entire fourth host also is not like the 3 skyfathers went all out on their blast but they smart enough to know if they we not going to win a battle judging from the combine attack.

DarkOdin
Originally posted by Sundipped
It does stack favorably if you consider the version of Emma with 1/2 of the force (op didn't specify or limit this to just Emma with only 1/5 of the power).

Basic logic would indicate that it's plausible for her to one shot kill a herald at that level even though it wasn't explicitly shown. You have to agree that a non holding back shot of that magnitude would be far more devastating than what 1/5 of the power holding back did to Thor by a host with the same amp. I would hardly call unleashing a storm of diamond shards holding back more of Thor having a very high durability to live through it

The Sorrow
@Sundipped

In the context of this thread those less-than-stellar showings are absolutely relevant. She struggled with speed, high herald strength, suspect durability and even her greatest power which would have been significantly amped let her down. You seem to forget this a trans/skyfather being she's facing not Thor, Vision and Cap, What's stopping Bor from manipulating her broken form and grinding her into dust? I don't subscribe to the no limit fallacy that she can reform no matter what, and she was NEVER shown to.

Amped by the same source or not characters don't get to feat share, NONE of the hosts do. Not even Thor and BRB get that pass so I don't see why it should be any different here. The P5 received "standard" powers but they also received their own unique capabilities on top of their own mutant powers which contradicts your claim of them all being equal. Cyclops, even while holding back, was clearly shown to be more formidable than Emma for example.

Nibedicus
Originally posted by Sundipped
What page is the link on?
Better yet, could you post it? It would save me the trouble of having to search.

zopzop
@ Nibedicus and Sundipped
Sorry I can't remember it. I should have saved the link. Let's just say, this clusterfxxk event could have been FAR FAR worse. They had ideas like "Hex Knights" beating the P5 and other crap.

You could see the writers were all over the place and not on the same page.........at all.

EDIT - here is what I was referring to :
http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2012/11/tom-brevoort-reveals-tantilizing-first-draft-of-avengers-vs-x-men-ending/

The post in the forums that I'm still looking for had way more info. Trainwreck!
Originally posted by DarkOdin
Not reaaly seeing Thor got zapped what once or twice by a celestial and which the destroyer took many many blast for the entire fourth host also is not like the 3 skyfathers went all out on their blast but they smart enough to know if they we not going to win a battle judging from the combine attack.
Dude he took 2 or 3 "merciless" blasts from the Celestials and he wasn't even KOed. The Destroyer was sent reeling from ONE blast from a Celestial.

Three Skyfathers combined their power to attack Arishem, he didn't even get scratched. Thor hit a Celestial with a Mjolnir strike and bits of it's armor broke off. He didn't even have his Belt of Strength or anything.

That sh|t was so PIS ridden the whole issue smelled like urine.

DarkOdin
Originally posted by zopzop
@ Nibedicus and Sundipped
Sorry I can't remember it. I should have saved the link. Let's just say, this clusterfxxk event could have been FAR FAR worse. They had ideas like "Hex Knights" beating the P5 and other crap.

You could see the writers were all over the place and not on the same page.........at all.

EDIT - here is what I was referring to :
http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2012/11/tom-brevoort-reveals-tantilizing-first-draft-of-avengers-vs-x-men-ending/

The post in the forums that I'm still looking for had way more info. Trainwreck!

Dude he took 2 or 3 "merciless" blasts from the Celestials and he wasn't even KOed. The Destroyer was sent reeling from ONE blast from a Celestial.

Three Skyfathers combined their power to attack Arishem, he didn't even get scratched. Thor hit a Celestial with a Mjolnir strike and bits of it's armor broke off. He didn't even have his Belt of Strength or anything.

That sh|t was so PIS ridden the whole issue smelled like urine.

The destroyer took alot more then one blast in took a blast from all the fourth host to put down the destroyer for good, and it was not like Thor tanked the blast from the celestials he was about to be put down

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by zopzop
Debating anything regarding AvX is pretty much a waste of time. Did any of you guys/gals see that Comicbook Resources Forum post about the leaked notes behind the AvX storyline?

Clusterfxxk is the word that comes to mind. I think TheGodKiller linked to it in the Character Ownage Thread.
Are you referring to the PENIS team name for the P5?

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by zopzop
Dude he took 2 or 3 "merciless" blasts from the Celestials and he wasn't even KOed. The Destroyer was sent reeling from ONE blast from a Celestial.

Three Skyfathers combined their power to attack Arishem, he didn't even get scratched. Thor hit a Celestial with a Mjolnir strike and bits of it's armor broke off. He didn't even have his Belt of Strength or anything.

That sh|t was so PIS ridden the whole issue smelled like urine.
Iirc, in a letters page the writer of that arc gave an explanation to outraged Thor/Asgard fans that Odin and the skyfathers had been weakened from their stay on Earth.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I can see why they'd be mad and decry it as PIS if they weren't aware of or ignored Thor's history of dealing with telepathy and mental based attacks/intrusions.

Thor didn't resist her powers in the issue. She was stunned by his mind because according to the issue she didn't have experience peering into a "gods" mind. Rachel Grey didn't have this problem. And niether did Xavier.

Later on, after having this experience she was able to get into all the Avengers minds and was going to turn all their Avengers minds off with a thought.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Thor didn't resist her powers in the issue. She was stunned by his mind because according to the issue she didn't have experience peering into a "gods" mind. Rachel Grey didn't have this problem. And niether did Xavier.

Later on, after having this experience she was able to get into all the Avengers minds and was going to turn all their Avengers minds off with a thought.
Rachel didn't succeed in mindphucking him either, so that point is moot.

Xavier was the only one who could handle Thor telepathically, and I think that his past encounters with Phoenix and Galactus can be used to justify such a showing.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Rachel didn't succeed in mindphucking him either, so that point is moot.

Xavier was the only one who could handle Thor telepathically, and I think that his past encounters with Phoenix and Galactus can be used to justify such a showing.

Not really, because the reason given in the issue was lack of experience. It had nothing to do with Thor and everything to do with Emma. Besides, later on in the crossover, she located all the Avengers and was tempted to turn their minds off.

Thor has quite a few showings where telepathy has gotten him too. Bedlam and Moondragon too. His mental defenses are like any superhero, come into play when the plot requires it.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not really, because the reason given in the issue was lack of experience. It had nothing to do with Thor and everything to do with Emma. Besides, later on in the crossover, she located all the Avengers and was tempted to turn their minds off.

Thor has quite a few showings where telepathy has gotten him too. Bedlam and Moondragon too. His mental defenses are like any superhero, come into play when the plot requires it.
Later in the crossover, she failed to maintain control over Rulk's mind as well. Again, as I said before, that point is moot. Not to mention that the "explanation" that you're talking about was implied in the Rachel VS Thor fight, not in his encounter with Emma(the only thing that would suggest that is Emma shouting "Oh God" while trying to mindrape Thor).

The Xavier showing was stupid regardless when one considers the Spider Woman/psy-shield instance in that same showing.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Later in the crossover, she failed to maintain control over Rulk's mind as well. Again, as I said before, that point is moot. Not to mention that the "explanation" that you're talking about was implied in the Rachel VS Thor fight, not in his encounter with Emma(the only thing that would suggest that is Emma shouting "Oh God" while trying to mindrape Thor).

The Xavier showing was stupid regardless when one considers the Spider Woman/psy-shield instance in that same showing.

They're all linked. They came out at the same time. It's the same way editorial decided Thing and Colossus would get taken down by WWH in the same manner. They look at each others stuff. And no it was also implied in the issue itself. The narrator says "Emma Frost is one of the most powerful telepaths on Earth. But has she ever peered into the mind of a God?" She was stunned at first, never gave it a second shot because he charged at her she decided to stay in Diamond Form for the rest of the fight. Also, Warbird stuck a explosive sword through her when she was human and it blew up and she was fine there too. And on top of that she was playing with him.

I think the Rulk thing was more about what she saw in his mind. Again she was rattled by seeing him punch a Watcher. But again it, was to advance the plot. MODOK could mess him up with mental powers.

Anyway, in #9 she was linked to every mind on the planet and could have turned off all their minds if she wanted too.

The Xavier thing was fine. The Emma nad Psylocke things were stupid. Emma does have experience with the Phoenix too and Psylocke has dealt with super beings with super senses before. It was really to advance the plot.

Also, Bendis' issue tied in directly to Aarons one.

ExodusCloak
Also another thing to note about all the Phoenix 5 is that they never dedicated their full attention to any of the fights as shown in Uncanny X-Men.

They were busy doing other things heck Namor was busy orgasming as he fought the Avengers in Wakanda.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I think the Rulk thing was more about what she saw in his mind. Again she was rattled by seeing him punch a Watcher. But again it, was to advance the plot. MODOK could mess him up with mental powers.
Pretty sure she lost control of his mind the moment Ross began to transform. And that was before she revealed to Scott the Watcher and Silver Surfer incidents.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Anyway, in #9 she was linked to every mind on the planet and could have turned off all their minds if she wanted too.

Iirc, her portion of the phoenix had been increased by then. She was more powerful than before in that instance.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak

The Xavier thing was fine. The Emma nad Psylocke things were stupid. Emma does have experience with the Phoenix too and Psylocke has dealt with super beings with super senses before. It was really to advance the plot.
Seeing how the plot itself was retarded anyways, using 2 other examples of WIS to justify one stupid incident sounds very unappealing to me.

ExodusCloak
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Pretty sure she lost control of his mind the moment Ross began to transform. And that was before she revealed to Scott the Watcher and Silver Surfer incidents.

She went to Diamond the moment he attacked her. Then Magneto and Cyclops showed up and she revealed the memories. Anyway, like I said M.O.D.O.K. got him. Unless you're saying M.O.D.O.K. > Phoenix Emma. I'd personally put it down to her panicking in what memories she saw e.g. The Watcher. But I guess you could take that anyway you wanted.



She was already beaucoup powerful before that. The issue was about peering into a "gods mind". It was all about experience as shown with the Xavier incident. Not about power.

Also as I said on the previous page, keep in mind that none of the Phoenix 5 dedicated their full attention to any of the fights. They were busy doing other things as shown in Uncanny X-Men.

PillarofOsiris
Bor was KILLED by Odin Force Thor, who besides a couple of feats, wasn't really all that impressive to me, power wise (although in terms of attitude and story line he was admittedly awesome). I just don't see Bor challenging 1/5 of the Phoenix Force. And Emma hasn't one shot killed a herald, but neither have MANY other uber entities either. It doesn't mean they couldn't.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Bor was KILLED by Odin Force Thor, who besides a couple of feats, wasn't really all that impressive to me, power wise (although in terms of attitude and story line he was admittedly awesome). I just don't see Bor challenging 1/5 of the Phoenix Force. And Emma hasn't one shot killed a herald, but neither have MANY other uber entities either. It doesn't mean they couldn't.

Odin Force Thor didn't have many fights. But the fights he did have specifically drove home the fact that he was clearly above the likes of "classic"/non-Odin Force empowered Thor. OF Thor tanks the Destroyer's disintegration ray; normal Thor gets killed by it. OF Thor is able to block Bor's strikes and suffer only broken ribs; normal Thor would have apparently been killed outright. I'm legitimately baffled as to why there still seems to be people who believe OF Thor was only minimally more powerful than normal Thor, if he was even more powerful at all.

Bor was killed by OF Thor, and Bor was literally more durable than Mjolnir itself, as evidenced by the fact it shattered upon striking him. That suggests an insane level of power from OF Thor as well as durability from Bor himself.

Like ODG said, if one were to give full faith and credit to P5 Emma based on stuff she really hasn't done, then one should do the same for Bor based on stuff he actually did do on panel.

zopzop
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Iirc, in a letters page the writer of that arc gave an explanation to outraged Thor/Asgard fans that Odin and the skyfathers had been weakened from their stay on Earth.
Seriously? If that's the case, then Odin for sure can take on a Celestial and hold his own for a while (like he did vs Galactus). Hmm Odin+Zeus can probably beat a Celestial then.

PillarofOsiris
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Odin Force Thor didn't have many fights. But the fights he did have specifically drove home the fact that he was clearly above the likes of "classic"/non-Odin Force empowered Thor. OF Thor tanks the Destroyer's disintegration ray; normal Thor gets killed by it. OF Thor is able to block Bor's strikes and suffer only broken ribs; normal Thor would have apparently been killed outright. I'm legitimately baffled as to why there still seems to be people who believe OF Thor was only minimally more powerful than normal Thor, if he was even more powerful at all.

Bor was killed by OF Thor, and Bor was literally more durable than Mjolnir itself, as evidenced by the fact it shattered upon striking him. That suggests an insane level of power from OF Thor as well as durability from Bor himself.

Like ODG said, if one were to give full faith and credit to P5 Emma based on stuff she really hasn't done, then one should do the same for Bor based on stuff he actually did do on panel.

I agree OF Thor was more powerful than classic Thor, by quite a bit even. But a entity with 1/5 of the Phoenix Force should be quite a ways above even OF Thor, nevermind Bor, who OF Thor killed.

Sundipped
Originally posted by The Sorrow
@Sundipped

In the context of this thread those less-than-stellar showings are absolutely relevant irrelevant. She struggled with speed, high herald strength, suspect durability and even her greatest power which would have been significantly amped let her down. You seem to forget this a trans/skyfather being she's facing not Thor, Vision and Cap, What's stopping Bor from manipulating her broken form and grinding her into dust? I don't subscribe to the no limit fallacy that she can reform no matter what, and she was NEVER shown to.

See what I did there?
You continue to point to these showing as if it we're some kind of weakness. Well you can throw the Quicksilver encounter out the window because Bor is no speedster. Warbird did nothing.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12643899_WOLVERINE_X-MEN-ZONE-004.jpg on the next page she is unharmed http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12643900_WOLVERINE_X-MEN-ZONE-005.jpg

What makes you think it would be so simple as Bor grinding just grinding her into dust being that she has subatomic control via the Phoenix amp? You're clinging on to that "never shown" stance too tight. Common knowledge is that the PF has superb control on a molecular level. Scott dematerialized Tony's armor with a gesture.

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Amped by the same source or not characters don't get to feat share, NONE of the hosts do. Not even Thor and BRB get that pass so I don't see why it should be any different here. The P5 received "standard" powers but they also received their own unique capabilities on top of their own mutant powers which contradicts your claim of them all being equal. Cyclops, even while holding back, was clearly shown to be more formidable than Emma for example.

Stormbreaker = Miljnor. They both have and are capable of the same abilities. All of the P5 we're bestowed with telepathy, telekinesis, super human strength/durability and molecular control. All of which was shown throughout the arc. Magik even ko'ed Colossus with 1 punch. Something Gladiator failed at. You may have thought Scott was more powerful but he really wasn't. His optic beam was enhanced but so we're the others attributes. Flight was included also.

ODG
Originally posted by Sundipped
It does stack favorably if you consider the version of Emma with 1/2 of the force (op didn't specify or limit this to just Emma with only 1/5 of the power).

Basic logic would indicate that it's plausible for her to one shot kill a herald at that level even though it wasn't explicitly shown. You have to agree that a non holding back shot of that magnitude would be far more devastating than what 1/5 of the power holding back did to Thor by a host with the same amp. When I read "P5 Emma Frost" in the OP, I assumed this was Emma as one of the Phoenix Five. P2 Emma is a different story with almost no feats.

Despite the fact that she never came close to one shot killing a herald whilst "holding back" (something you haven't even proven)? If anything, Emma and Namor were the most aggressive and nastiest of the P5. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Thor didn't resist her powers in the issue. She was stunned by his mind because according to the issue she didn't have experience peering into a "gods" mind. Rachel Grey didn't have this problem. And niether did Xavier.

Later on, after having this experience she was able to get into all the Avengers minds and was going to turn all their Avengers minds off with a thought. Rachel had been the avatar of the Phoenix for years. Xavier has confronted godly minds before. He's had to deal with Legion, tried to force his way into Dark Phoenix's mind, Galactus' mind (twice), and helped mindrape the Goddess, among others. And this was far more intrusive than what P5 Emma attempted. And as shown in New Avengers: Illuminati he even peered into the Beyonder's mind and Thor's mind on Battleworld.

P2 Emma, and she never did. Not exactly something that overturns P5 Emma precedent.

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