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Anakin Skywalker was able to defeat the Count.
So would it be a different story after becoming sith?

And this is also without the help of Kenobi.

Why wouldn't he be able to?

Originally posted by Based
Why wouldn't he be able to? Dooku is able to defeat Obi Wan, who defeated Pre Suit Vader.

Originally posted by mnat801
Dooku is able to defeat Obi Wan, who defeated Pre Suit Vader.

Obi Wan had something that Dooku didn't have, unbreakable defense.

Although that didn't allow him a victory until he happened to gain a superior position where his defensive style could be used offensively. Obi-Wan was merely defending Anakin's attack, and he didn't mean to amputate all those limbs or he would have just killed Anakin. See the Ep III novelization for proof.

Without the high ground Obi-Wan lacked the skill and power to even touch Anakin, who was a far better duelist.

Dooku's skill allowed him to toy with Obi-Wan, Anakin tore through Dooku's style with rage-fueled focus and precision. Dooku was better than Obi-Wan, and could actually break his defense. But Anakin couldn't because his style was actually too aggressive and ferocious to break it, Dooku's style was more concealed in it's assault and his Dun Moch strategy caused Obi Wan to lose his defensive tactics.

As we see in the Clone Wars saga, when Obi Wan is provoked and angered, he loses that defensive perfection that makes him so deadly, as Darth Maul was able to get the best of him with Dun Moch. Provocation is Obi Wan's weakness, he needs to stay cool.

Anakin was stronger in the Force than Dooku, who was stronger in the Force than Obi Wan. But every titan has their weakness, Obi-Wan's weakness was Don Much, Anakin's weakness was Obi-Wan's defensive Soresu Style which eventually wore Anakin out physically.

However, as Darth Vader, his loss of motility, equilibrium, neurokinetics and calisthenics utterly destroyed his maelstrom of destruction, and he had to change his style because the aggression amplified his weakness as an awkward cyborg.

Originally posted by mnat801
Dooku is able to defeat Obi Wan, who defeated Pre Suit Vader.

ABC fallacy.

Originally posted by Based
ABC.

Is how it works in DBZ, not Star Wars.

EDIT Yeah pretty much.

Wait what?

I'm gonna go ahead and say Dooku because of superior force powers.

Would be a good fight. I can see Dooku on the defense and using his force powers to hold Skywalker at bay.

I'd probably give Dooku the win.

Originally posted by Dolos
Obi Wan had something that Dooku didn't have, unbreakable defense.

Although that didn't allow him a victory until he happened to gain a superior position where his defensive style could be used offensively. Obi-Wan was merely defending Anakin's attack, and he didn't mean to amputate all those limbs or he would have just killed Anakin. See the Ep III novelization for proof.

Without the high ground Obi-Wan lacked the skill and power to even touch Anakin, who was a far better duelist.

Dooku's skill allowed him to toy with Obi-Wan, Anakin tore through Dooku's style with rage-fueled focus and precision. Dooku was better than Obi-Wan, and could actually break his defense. But Anakin couldn't because his style was actually too aggressive and ferocious to break it, Dooku's style was more concealed in it's assault and his Dun Moch strategy caused Obi Wan to lose his defensive tactics.

As we see in the Clone Wars saga, when Obi Wan is provoked and angered, he loses that defensive perfection that makes him so deadly, as Darth Maul was able to get the best of him with Dun Moch. Provocation is Obi Wan's weakness, he needs to stay cool.

Anakin was stronger in the Force than Dooku, who was stronger in the Force than Obi Wan. But every titan has their weakness, Obi-Wan's weakness was Don Much, Anakin's weakness was Obi-Wan's defensive Soresu Style which eventually wore Anakin out physically.

However, as Darth Vader, his loss of motility, equilibrium, neurokinetics and calisthenics utterly destroyed his maelstrom of destruction, and he had to change his style because the aggression amplified his weakness as an awkward cyborg. Hmm, some of what you said isn't totally right.

Obi Wan didn't have unbreakable defense, as Dooku broke his defense and almost killed him in AOTC.

Saying Anakin is a far better duelist than Obi Wan is a contradiction. Because then Obi Wan wouldn't have been much of a problem for him in that duel.

Another contradiction is when you say provocation is Obi Wan's weakness. Maul did get the better of him in TCW series season 4, but in TPM when Maul provoked him after killing his master, Obi Wan performed better against Maul which forced Maul to force push Obi Wan.

Obi Wan wasn't defending Anakin's attacks the whole time, there were some par to par moments.

And I don't know about Anakin being stronger in the force than Dooku, but only the potential.

Originally posted by Based
ABC fallacy. Not declaring ABC argument, just stating the facts.

Originally posted by mnat801

Another contradiction is when you say provocation is Obi Wan's weakness. Maul did get the better of him in TCW series season 4, but in TPM when Maul provoked him after killing his master, Obi Wan performed better against Maul which forced Maul to force push Obi Wan.


It should be noted that Obi-Wan was using Ataru during TPM, and afterwards he switched to Soresu. Utilising Soresu, if Obi-Wan were to fall victim to provocation, it would have far worse consequences than if he were using Ataru, a more aggressive form.

In any case, when Maul did force push Obi-Wan, Maul had already staggered him due to overpowering him in the saber lock, leaving Obi-Wan open to being force pushed or similar. I'm not denying Obi-Wan fought better after Qui-Gon was killed, but Maul still managed to get the better of him via the saber lock and simply using the environment to his advantage.

Originally posted by mnat801
Not declaring ABC argument, just stating the facts.

Facts, in a debate?

The only people here who pay attention to those are Nephthys, Stealth Moose, Borbarad and Gideon.

Anyone else other than them, and expect nothing different from "ABC Fallacy".

Backward ass logic, not facts.

> does not mean anything. What you're trying to say is Dooku beat Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan got lucky against Anakin.

Anakin's rage allowed him to overpower Dooku, and his master, Obi-Wan was just about to die before he got the high-ground and Anakin foolishly tried to rush Obi-Wan, Dooku wouldn't have gotten past Kenobi's Soresu defense had he been in Anakin's shoes with Kenobi's high-ground. That had nothing to do with his rage, that was his arrogance. He was stronger than Dooku, who was stronger than Obi-wan.

He had become stronger than Dooku in the Force, and had long since surpassed his master, before his powers even doubled and went above Dooku's.

Originally posted by KylarWhite
It should be noted that Obi-Wan was using Ataru during TPM, and afterwards he switched to Soresu. Utilising Soresu, if Obi-Wan were to fall victim to provocation, it would have far worse consequences than if he were using Ataru, a more aggressive form.

In any case, when Maul did force push Obi-Wan, Maul had already staggered him due to overpowering him in the saber lock, leaving Obi-Wan open to being force pushed or similar. I'm not denying Obi-Wan fought better after Qui-Gon was killed, but Maul still managed to get the better of him via the saber lock and simply using the environment to his advantage. Fair enough point, but that didn't mean that Obi Wan never used Ataru after learning Soresu. He still implemented at times, however Soresu stayed as his dominant style.

Yup, your right about Maul and the saber lock.

Originally posted by Dolos
Backward ass logic, not facts.

> does not mean anything. What you're trying to say is Dooku beat Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan got lucky against Anakin.

Anakin's rage allowed him to overpower Dooku, and his master, Obi-Wan was just about to die before he got the high-ground and Anakin foolishly tried to rush Obi-Wan, Dooku wouldn't have gotten past Kenobi's Soresu defense had he been in Anakin's shoes with Kenobi's high-ground. That had nothing to do with his rage, that was his arrogance. He was stronger than Dooku, who was stronger than Obi-wan.

He had become stronger than Dooku in the Force, and had long since surpassed his master, before his powers even doubled and went above Dooku's. It is facts. Obi Wan didn't defeat Vader because of luck, it was because of his patience and Vader's stupidity. It was still a pretty even fight, I don't know whether it got to the point where Obi Wan was almost going to die.

I don't think Vader was stronger in the force than any of them, remember he and Obi Wan stalemated a force push in that duel on Mustafar.

Originally posted by Dolos
Backward ass logic, not facts.

> does not mean anything. What you're trying to say is Dooku beat Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan got lucky against Anakin.

Anakin's rage allowed him to overpower Dooku, and his master, Obi-Wan was just about to die before he got the high-ground and Anakin foolishly tried to rush Obi-Wan, Dooku wouldn't have gotten past Kenobi's Soresu defense had he been in Anakin's shoes with Kenobi's high-ground. That had nothing to do with his rage, that was his arrogance. He was stronger than Dooku, who was stronger than Obi-wan.

Originally posted by Dolos
He had become stronger than Dooku in the Force, and had long since surpassed his master, before his powers even doubled and went above Dooku's.

Originally posted by mnat801
I don't think Vader was stronger in the force than any of them, remember he and Obi Wan stalemated a force push in that duel on Mustafar.

Being stronger in the force doesn't necessarily translate into superior telekinesis. ROTS Anakin WAS Stronger in the Force than both Dooku and Obi-Wan.

Also Skywalker has proven many times in the Clone Wars that he can tank Dooku's force attacks far far better than Kenobi can. In fact Kenobi can't.

Originally posted by mnat801
It is facts. Obi Wan didn't defeat Vader because of luck, it was because of his patience and Vader's stupidity.

He won due to Vader's arrogance. Jedi Anakin did not make such stupid moves. In fact he has been consistently shown to be much smarter tactically than Kenobi.

Originally posted by mnat801
It was still a pretty even fight, I don't know whether it got to the point where Obi Wan was almost going to die.

Kenobi was getting choked to death at one point. And Anakin landed more blows and was "Forcing" Kenobi back the whole fight. Plus Kenobi was tiring, whilst Skywalker has pretty unlimited stamina. I don't see how that's pretty even.

Dooku dies even quicker unless he manages to disable Anakin with some surprise Force attack like in CW.


Anakin as more powerful can put more effort into each attack without getting tired. Kenobi in turn because of style concerves energy, so anyone he fights will get tired first, that's what happened to Darth Krayt.
In other words Anakin and Kenobi cancel each other out and that's why we have such and even performance in film.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Being stronger in the force doesn't necessarily translate into superior telekinesis. ROTS Anakin WAS Stronger in the Force than both Dooku and Obi-Wan.
Anakin was stronger in raw sense but his command of the Force haven't yet developed to such a degree that he could put his great affinity with the Force to effective use.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also Skywalker has proven many times in the Clone Wars that he can tank Dooku's force attacks far far better than Kenobi can. In fact Kenobi can't.
It is possible that Anakin's defensive abilities were superior to that of Obi-Wan's.

However, I do recall two CW fights between Dooku and Anakin; in one such fight, Dooku send Anakin packing away from him with his telekinetic abilities; in another, Dooku knocked out Anakin unconscious with his Force Lightning.

But Dooku was already showing signs of aging since he was unable to keep up with Anakin in martial combat situations. On the contrary, Anakin was improving with passage of time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He won due to Vader's arrogance. Jedi Anakin did not make such stupid moves. In fact he has been consistently shown to be much smarter tactically than Kenobi.
Yes. Pre-suit Vader made a miscalculation in the end.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi was getting choked to death at one point. And Anakin landed more blows and was "Forcing" Kenobi back the whole fight. Plus Kenobi was tiring, whilst Skywalker has pretty unlimited stamina. I don't see how that's pretty even.
In a duel, the Soresu practitioner continues to give space to the opponent with the intent to tire out the opponent by prolonging the duel and eventually take advantage of an opening. This is precisely what happened during the duel in Mustafar.

On top of this, pre-suit Vader, couldn't overwhelm Obi-Wan with the Force either because his command of it wasn't good enough during this time to grant him edge against Obi-Wan's. This proved to be a major drawback.

Originally posted by Dolos
What you're trying to say is Dooku beat Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan got lucky against Anakin.

That's pretty ****ing much what happened; in a nutshell.

Pretty sure Tyranus takes this. His application of Dun Moch will be much more effective.

RotS Anakin beat Dooku. Since Pre-Suit Vader was even more powerful than RotS Anakin, it only makes sense that, with the same body and much greater power, Vader rapes sh*t.

Originally posted by jmoul
RotS Anakin beat Dooku. Since Pre-Suit Vader was even more powerful than RotS Anakin, it only makes sense that, with the same body and much greater power, Vader rapes sh*t.

I agree.

That's essentially how Anakin beat Dooku the first time around - using his brute force to beat/wear Dooku down - and then out-technique him and surgically remove his hands.

Against Pre-suit Vader - Dooku is dealing with even more brute force this time - and although this "Anakin" would be less clear-headed than before - I still don't believe Dooku could hold up properly against Vader's brutal assaults.

Eventually, Vader would wear him down again, and take him out.

Originally posted by Rookwood
I agree.

That's essentially how Anakin beat Dooku the first time around - using his brute force to beat/wear Dooku down - and then out-technique him and surgically remove his hands.

Against Pre-suit Vader - Dooku is dealing with even more brute force this time - and although this "Anakin" would be less clear-headed than before - I still don't believe Dooku could hold up properly against Vader's brutal assaults.

Eventually, Vader would wear him down again, and take him out.
As long as you acknowledge he'll be more focused and precise, just more arrogant as well.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Pretty sure Tyranus takes this. His application of Dun Moch will be much more effective.

That's exactly what got him killed in the first place.

Your opinions are completely contradictory to film and novelization continuity.

Originally posted by Dolos
That's exactly what got him killed in the first place.

Your opinions are completely contradictory to film and novelization continuity.

What got him killed was Anakin using his Rage but still fighting as a Jedi.

He didn't just lash out and kill Dooku like a maniac. He forced him back with power, skillfully out maneuvered him and still was NOT going for the kill until the fight was over and Palpatine goaded him to.

Whilst Pre-Suit Vader would be pretty easy to manipulate through Dun Moch. Just imagine Dooku saying "Go on... Make the jump you little s***"

Originally posted by Dolos
As long as you acknowledge he'll be more focused and precise, just more arrogant as well.

Pre-Suit Vader was not as focused as his Zonakin-self - but he'll still win.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Pre-Suit Vader was not as focused as his Zonakin-self - but he'll still win.

He was more focused, just more aggressive, to the extent that he was using higher level moves than he should have been. This would further smash Dooku's Makashi style, but Djem So had it's limits against Soresu, especially when you consider Vader constantly opened up his defense with these risky skillz, and his perpetual blitz maneuvers that put Obi-Wan back on defense were exhausting, the effect on Dooku would be far more favorable for the young Sith Lord. He was far more powerful than either of them, which was why in the end he was about to finally overpower Obi-Wan and break his defense ("this is the end for you" before attempting an impossible maneuver, which failed with the consequence of a loss to his weaker master (guess he didn't overestimate your power).

Originally posted by Dolos
He was more focused, just more agressive, to the extent that he was using higher level moves than he should have been. especially when you consider Vader' constantly opened up his defense with the risky skillz, before attempting an impossible maneuver, which failed with the consequence of a loss

That all happened because he was less-focused than his Zonakin-self - he had just experienced a major psychotic-episode, following the betrayal of his allies, murder of young children, and finally, the murder of his beloved wife.

So he was very unstable, and by definition, very unfocused.

Hence all the ding-bat maneuvers, and him getting his ass handed to him by a weaker opponent.

Originally posted by Rookwood
That all happened because he was less-focused than his Zonakin-self - he had just experienced a major psychotic-episode, following the betrayal of his allies, murder of young children, and finally, the murder of his beloved wife.

So he was very unstable, and by definition, very unfocused.

Hence all the ding-bat maneuvers, and him getting his ass handed to him by a weaker opponent.

-edit-

What supports the theory Pre Suit Vader>Lightside Anakin/CW Anakin?

IMO Anakin weren't very impressive in his fight with Obi-Wan. They where even in their force contest, what would stop Dooku from forceraping him like he usually forcerapes Obi-Wan?

Honestly, I sympathize with Janus, Nai, and the others on this issue now more than ever. The power hierarchy in ROTS went fvcking nuts: Dooku ragdolls Obi-Wan, but gets pwned by Anakin, who in turn duels with Obi-Wan for 3.5 hours without any real progress; Sidious b1tchslaps three Jedi Masters, loses to Mace for no reason, then beats Yoda. The explanations Stover and others had to come up with in order to rectify this situation are horrible, but I give them so much credit for trying.

The Flanneled Chins clearly didn't give a shit.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Honestly, I sympathize with Janus, Nai, and the others on this issue now more than ever. The power hierarchy in ROTS went fvcking nuts: Dooku ragdolls Obi-Wan, but gets pwned by Anakin, who in turn duels with Obi-Wan for 3.5 hours without any real progress; Sidious b1tchslaps three Jedi Masters, loses to Mace for no reason, then beats Yoda. The explanations Stover and others had to come up with in order to rectify this situation are horrible, but I give them so much credit for trying.

The Flanneled Chins clearly didn't give a shit.

George Lucas should be thankful for Special Effects - otherwise, if they hadn't been invented/developed, Star Wars would have bombed.

Lucas is just a terrible, terrible writer.

But thankfully, he had Frank Herbert to rip off, and Special Effects to use - otherwise he'd be washing dishes in the back of a Waffle House, today.

I'm not jumping on the Lucas hatewagon, he's a talented man. But he sucks at writing a few things: romantic dialogue & fight scenes.

That's very kind of you to say that.

I think the prognosis is worse, but at least there are kind, intelligent individuals who still support him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not jumping on the Lucas hatewagon, he's a talented man.






Originally posted by The_Tempest
But he sucks at writing a few things: romantic dialogue & fight scenes.

Well yeah the romantic dialogue in AOTC wasn't the best.

But the SW fights are great fun.

But Yes we could have used a proper in movie explanation on the huge inconsistency in the Anakin>Dooku>Obi-Wan=Anakin, and yes Mace beating Sidious who then beat Yoda was just gay.

But that's all more down to inconsistencies required for the plot than it was down to bad fight scenes.

Originally posted by Rookwood
George Lucas should be thankful for Special Effects - otherwise, if they hadn't been invented/developed, Star Wars would have bombed.



You have no taste.

The OT blew the world away back in the day and not just because of special effects (although they were amazing for the time).

Forget Harry Potter and LOTR. Neither of them compare to the cultural success that was Star Wars back in the 70's and 80's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You have no taste.

The OT blew the world away back in the day and not just because of special effects (although they were amazing for the time).

Forget Harry Potter and LOTR. Neither of them compare to the cultural success that was Star Wars back in the 70's and 80's.

Considering all George Lucas did was essentially rip off Frank Herbert and use his material to create a childishly-simple movie about robots and lasers - yeah, pretty much - if Lucas had not had advanced Special Effects to use - it would have bombed.

If you have actually watched the behind-the-scenes featurettes on the making of Star Wars - the early draft-shoots of the film (with intention, originally) lacked advanced special effects.

Lucas knew without really good special effects, his movie, essentially just a rip-off of Frank Herbert's work - would bomb.

I saw Star Wars first, and then later became immersed in Dune, and later, having discovered the process in which Lucas had rendered the PT Trilogy, I realized he was nothing more than a very clever, and lazy, Hack.

He owes all his success to other people - and to Special Effects technology - without that, and Frank Herbert, he'd be nothing.

And I love Star Wars - what I am speaking of is merely the cold, hard Truth.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Being stronger in the force doesn't necessarily translate into superior telekinesis. ROTS Anakin WAS Stronger in the Force than both Dooku and Obi-Wan. There's no proof stating that Anakin is officially stronger in the force than either of them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also Skywalker has proven many times in the Clone Wars that he can tank Dooku's force attacks far far better than Kenobi can. In fact Kenobi can't. I've watched every episode and not once have I seen this. Kenobi hasn't faced Dooku in the Clone Wars series so how can he prove whether he can or not? Just because I haven't shot 3 3-pointers in a row doesn't mean I can't.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He won due to Vader's arrogance. Jedi Anakin did not make such stupid moves. In fact he has been consistently shown to be much smarter tactically than Kenobi. Kenobi's style of fighting meant that he would wait for an opening, then exploit it, and thats exactly what he did. And don't even go there. Obi Wan is without doubt smarter than Anakin, in every sense of the word. Its beyond ridiculous to even think that.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi was getting choked to death at one point. And Anakin landed more blows and was "Forcing" Kenobi back the whole fight. Plus Kenobi was tiring, whilst Skywalker has pretty unlimited stamina. I don't see how that's pretty even. Just because Kenobi was getting chocked at one point in the duel doesn't make Anakin better than Kenobi. The fight kept on going. The reason it was pretty even is because the fight was so long, compared to Anakin vs Dooku.

Could go either way, depending on circumstance. When it comes to raw power, I believe Vader could take this, however, Dooku is more refined, and more skilled... Pretty tough decision.