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This is the Battle of Helm's Deep as seen in Two Towers. But instead of the original defenders, they get replaced by:

General Maximus (leader) from Gladiator
Conan from Conan the Barbarian (original)
Mathayus from Scorpion King
Achilles and 50 Myrmidons from Troy
Paris and 100 Trojan Archers from Troy
King Leonidas and the 300 Spartans from 300
All 13 warriors from 13th Warrior
Balian and 50 Fully Geared Knight horsemen from Kingdom of Heaven

Everyone will be armed with steel weapons, armor and shielding instead of the bronze/copper that would be prevalent in their time (only if it improves their current gear). To not handicap their weapons skills, the items are still in the form of the equipment that they are used to.

However, unlike the Two Towers, they do NOT get rescued by Gandalf in the end. Can this force beat the odds??

Achilles solos.

Originally posted by Mindset
Achilles solos. He will kill many Uruks. One of the few who'd be able to.

The New Conan would slaughter as well.

Also balian was pretty damn good at strategy along with the defensive capabilities of leo's 300. If the uruks somehow manage to set the bomb off(unlikeley) Leos 300 block the entrance with the phalanx. Not a single uruk would get through that.

Originally posted by omgchos
Also balian was pretty damn good at strategy along with the defensive capabilities of leo's 300. If the uruks somehow manage to set the bomb off(unlikeley) Leos 300 block the entrance with the phalanx. Not a single uruk would get through that.

They lose eventually, Balain was good at delaying things but he was never going to win his fight he just needed to make it at as costly as possible so he could negotiate terms with the Muslims.

The Persain Archers were not better than Elven Archers

Achilles is a very skilled fighter but not better than any of the LOTR fighters imo.

The 300 would be overrun from the sheer tidal wave of monsters coming at them. Plus the Uru-Kai were much better armed and organized than what the Spartans fought. The Immortals were able to kill a few Spartans I think the Uru-kai were much better than them.

They may kill many but the forces will get over run.

Originally posted by Newjak
They lose eventually, Balain was good at delaying things but he was never going to win his fight he just needed to make it at as costly as possible so he could negotiate terms with the Muslims.

The Persain Archers were not better than Elven Archers

Achilles is a very skilled fighter but not better than any of the LOTR fighters imo.

The 300 would be overrun from the sheer tidal wave of monsters coming at them. Plus the Uru-Kai were much better armed and organized than what the Spartans fought. The Immortals were able to kill a few Spartans I think the Uru-kai were much better than them.

They may kill many but the forces will get over run.
The immortals only kllled any spartans because of the fail battle plan that they used for no apparent reason. If they had stuck to the phalanx leo and his 300 woulda pwnt.

Originally posted by omgchos
The immortals only kllled any spartans because of the fail battle plan that they used for no apparent reason. If they had stuck to the phalanx leo and his 300 woulda pwnt. Possibly even though the Immortals were over matched they still seemed to present some challenge to the Spartans even after they formed up.

And I only use it as a reference cause the Uru-Kai were better equipped, more dangerous and more numerous than the Immortals.

I don't think the 300 would do well against them not nearly enough to sway this fight.

Originally posted by Newjak
Possibly even though the Immortals were over matched they still seemed to present some challenge to the Spartans even after they formed up.

And I only use it as a reference cause the Uru-Kai were better equipped, more dangerous and more numerous than the Immortals.

I don't think the 300 would do well against them not nearly enough to sway this fight.
My point is that you have the uruks in the same hard spot they were in the movie. They have to get through the wall. If the 300 are chillin in the courtyard beyond the deeping wall, the second the bomb goes off theyll be ready to set up the guard. No one ver actually got through the phalanx. The only time they lost was when the persians knew the goat path and surrounded them with archers and soldiers. From a frontal standpoint they are as far as we know impenitrable. The uruks had basically the same equipment as the immortals besides the fact that the immortals had leather armor. The only hope the uruk hai have is climbing the wall with their ladders. Which is unlikely as even some unskilled humans managed to prevent that.

Originally posted by omgchos
My point is that you have the uruks in the same hard spot they were in the movie. They have to get through the wall. If the 300 are chillin in the courtyard beyond the deeping wall, the second the bomb goes off theyll be ready to set up the guard. No one ver actually got through the phalanx. The only time they lost was when the persians knew the goat path and surrounded them with archers and soldiers. From a frontal standpoint they are as far as we know impenitrable. The uruks had basically the same equipment as the immortals besides the fact that the immortals had leather armor. The only hope the uruk hai have is climbing the wall with their ladders. Which is unlikely as even some unskilled humans managed to prevent that. They were only in the Phanalanx once or twice throughout the whole movie, it was used against under equipped hordes charging into them.

The difference is that the Uru-Kai are more numerous, better organized, better equipped.

The Uru-Kai were head to toe covered in armor, physically powerful, and equipped with spears and shields of of their own.

It wasn't just a few rag tag humans keeping them at bay. There were a whole group of Elves helping to defend Helm's deep and those elves would have made mence meat out of the 300 spartans.

Originally posted by Newjak
They were only in the Phanalanx once or twice throughout the whole movie, it was used against under equipped hordes charging into them.

The difference is that the Uru-Kai are more numerous, better organized, better equipped.

The Uru-Kai were head to toe covered in armor, physically powerful, and equipped with spears and shields of of their own.

It wasn't just a few rag tag humans keeping them at bay. There were a whole group of Elves helping to defend Helm's deep and those elves would have made mence meat out of the 300 spartans.
They almost exclusively used the phalanx unless they had broken up the forces that beseeched them. In which case they wrecked what was left. Also when they let their athosian buddies out to brawl.

Originally posted by omgchos
They almost exclusively used the phalanx unless they had broken up the forces that beseeched them. In which case they wrecked what was left. Also when they let their athosian buddies out to brawl. Okay name all the times they are actually shown in a phanalax formation in the movie where they were fighting people?

There's the initial charge, you can maybe count once they reorganize against the Immortals, and when they drive the people off the cliff.

After that when do they use it like in the opening?

Almost all of their fighting except for those are in open formations showing very cool fighting choreography.

Originally posted by Newjak
Okay name all the times they are actually shown in a phanalax formation in the movie where they were fighting people?

There's the initial charge, you can maybe count once they reorganize against the Immortals, and when they drive the people off the cliff.

After that when do they use it like in the opening?

Almost all of their fighting except for those are in open formations showing very cool fighting choreography.

They use the phalanx for a vast majority of the battle as stated by the narrator(david wenham). The instances you're referring to are those times when they battled a foe out of the ordinary, such as rhinoceros, chicks with g'nades and for some reason when the immortals showed up. In the case of the immortals they faught them on equal ground and then re-formed the phalanx. When the re-grouped into formation they utterly owned them. The phalanx itself was never broken and we know they use it in the case of foot soldiers attacking them. Once the wall goes down they'll form up and easily keep the uruk hai at bay. Their armor doesnt make them invulnerable. Even Theodin managed to get one in the neck with a spear. The ork-men never showed strength feats greater than that of the persians. They were as any other orc army. They just happened to outnumber the forces at helms deep quite considerably. The 300 managed to take down hundreds of thousands of the persians irrc from david's narration.

The humans in this scenario will actually hold up better than the humans in the original helm's deep. But losing the elves is a big blow though. Paris and his archers are a pale comparison to legolas and the elven archers.

Achilles, Conan, and Mathayus all can take out hordes of Urukai. Maximus and Balain will prove better at tactics than that Rohan king. Leonidas' 300 and the 13 warriors will definitely be hard to take down.

But in the end, I still think they fall due to being severely outnumbered. The Urukai were mentioned to be "at least 10 thousand strong". And even if the 300 can bottle neck the breach in the wall like an above poster mentioned, the defenders would then lack the proper number to defend the other parts of the wall.

Without Gandalf and his troop hitting the Urukai from the rear to eventually save the day, I say the defenders make a better stand than the original group from the movie but will eventually get overwhelmed or just drop dead from plain exhaustion.

Originally posted by omgchos
They use the phalanx for a vast majority of the battle as stated by the narrator(david wenham). The instances you're referring to are those times when they battled a foe out of the ordinary, such as rhinoceros, chicks with g'nades and for some reason when the immortals showed up. In the case of the immortals they faught them on equal ground and then re-formed the phalanx. When the re-grouped into formation they utterly owned them. The phalanx itself was never broken and we know they use it in the case of foot soldiers attacking them. Once the wall goes down they'll form up and easily keep the uruk hai at bay. Their armor doesnt make them invulnerable. Even Theodin managed to get one in the neck with a spear. The ork-men never showed strength feats greater than that of the persians. They were as any other orc army. They just happened to outnumber the forces at helms deep quite considerably. The 300 managed to take down hundreds of thousands of the persians irrc from david's narration. Yet for the majority of their fights and fighting they are 'shown' to not be in the Phalanx at all.

The only time we see the Phanalx tested is against a bunch of under equipped armies not used to fighting in organized formations.

That's not exactly a great be all test of it to state it was impenetrable.

Their armor makes most of them pretty well guarded against the Spartan's spears and swords. They also showed pretty good durability without it. The one uruk hai was able to shrug off arrows into him to launch himself at the bomb.

They have cross bows which would help make even more hardships for the spartans. A series of cross bow bolts into the spartans legs would hurt them badly.

Originally posted by FrothByte
The humans in this scenario will actually hold up better than the humans in the original helm's deep. But losing the elves is a big blow though. Paris and his archers are a pale comparison to legolas and the elven archers.

Achilles, Conan, and Mathayus all can take out hordes of Urukai. Maximus and Balain will prove better at tactics than that Rohan king. Leonidas' 300 and the 13 warriors will definitely be hard to take down.

But in the end, I still think they fall due to being severely outnumbered. The Urukai were mentioned to be "at least 10 thousand strong". And even if the 300 can bottle neck the breach in the wall like an above poster mentioned, the defenders would then lack the proper number to defend the other parts of the wall.

Without Gandalf and his troop hitting the Urukai from the rear to eventually save the day, I say the defenders make a better stand than the original group from the movie but will eventually get overwhelmed or just drop dead from plain exhaustion.
They have the manpower to pull this off. The 300 can at the very least kill id say half if they are very unlucky. Another 10% are easily taken down by the arches while Leo and his spartans hold the uruks at bay. Bailian and the Spaniard would easily be able to outsmart the ladder units and instruct archers to periodically take down those trying to erect them. If not sending forces to knock them down. While you have the 50 men and achiles ready to rape anyone that gets up a ladder or makes it through the deeping wall. Having ample room for a fight in the courtyard. And even if they make it all the way through all of that somehow theres another bottle neck for them in the keep. Their numbers will count for nothing as leo so eloquently put it.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yet for the majority of their fights and fighting they are 'shown' to not be in the Phalanx at all.

The only time we see the Phanalx tested is against a bunch of under equipped armies not used to fighting in organized formations.

That's not exactly a great be all test of it to state it was impenetrable.

Their armor makes most of them pretty well guarded against the Spartan's spears and swords. They also showed pretty good durability without it. The one uruk hai was able to shrug off arrows into him to launch himself at the bomb.

They have cross bows which would help make even more hardships for the spartans. A series of cross bow bolts into the spartans legs would hurt them badly.
Their armor means nothing as the spartans showed ample skill with their spears and swords. They'll figure out quickly where to stab an uruk. I saw plenty of them going down from spears to the neck and arrows to the neck. That one uruk didnt get hit in a vital area, tho why the elsves missed so horrible idk. The point of the movie was that when they used the phalan they never lost. It was a montage showing all the crazy shit xerces threw their way. When it came down to it they used the phalanx because of the terrain. They wouldnt let the perisans advance into greece any further up the thermopole coast line. They only ended up losing when they got surrounded.

Originally posted by omgchos
They have the manpower to pull this off. The 300 can at the very least kill id say half if they are very unlucky. Another 10% are easily taken down by the arches while Leo and his spartans hold the uruks at bay. Bailian and the Spaniard would easily be able to outsmart the ladder units and instruct archers to periodically take down those trying to erect them. If not sending forces to knock them down. While you have the 50 men and achiles ready to rape anyone that gets up a ladder or makes it through the deeping wall. Having ample room for a fight in the courtyard. And even if they make it all the way through all of that somehow theres another bottle neck for them in the keep. Their numbers will count for nothing as leo so eloquently put it.

The Urukai also had siege engines. If the 300 put up a wall of shields in the breach, the Urukai can just aim their catapults at that. Besides, the Urukai had crossbows. The 300 will have a pretty hard time holding off against the Urukai.

Also, putting the 300 to block that breach would cut down the defender's numbers in half. Eventually Urukai would get over the wall (those siege ladders were pretty darn hard to push off) and once they're inside and the fighting becomes 1 on 1, well let's say I'd rather have 300 elves than 300 spartans.

In the Two Towers movie, by the time day break came and the defenders were nearly dead on their feet from exhaustion, the Urukai only lost a small percentage of their number.

Like I said, the defenders in this scenario can probably hold off longer than the original movie, but they will eventually fall from exhaustion.

IN the 300 movie, the persians never attacked the spartans continuously. They'd send different groups from their army against the 300 at different times of the day, which gave the 300 time to rest in between the attacks. This scenario is different, the Urukai will be launching a continuous attack that no man can hope to keep on standing against unless given respite.

If you guys were Maxiumus, what would be the optimal deployment of your troops (not knowing about the Urukbomb)?

Can Mathayus stop the Urukbomb where Legolas failed?

Wouldn't the keep be a better defensible position for the spartans?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
If you guys were Maxiumus, what would be the optimal deployment of your troops (not knowing about the Urukbomb)?

Can Mathayus stop the Urukbomb where Legolas failed?

Wouldn't the keep be a better defensible position for the spartans? I won't answer the first one.

But No if Legolas fails you don't get much better than him, other than Hawkeye.

No the Hot gates had one main entrance and one hidden path.

Helm's deep has multiple areas to enter from via bomb, ladders or front entrance. Plenty of places to surround the Spartans.

Once the castle wall is breached, the only team to stand a chance are the 300 Spartans and their phalanx of death.

Problem is, the Uruks also had scaling ladders, so eventually they'd take the Spartans from the rear (teehee) and they'd eventually fall from having to fight on all fronts.

And lol, "300 against 10,000." -Legolas.

Originally posted by Newjak
I won't answer the first one.

But No if Legolas fails you don't get much better than him, other than Hawkeye.

No the Hot gates had one main entrance and one hidden path.

Helm's deep has multiple areas to enter from via bomb, ladders or front entrance. Plenty of places to surround the Spartans.

Not a question of accuracy (where Legolas is FAR superior in), tho. More a question of stopping power. Mathias' bow has flung full grown men like they were hit by a speeding car. I can certainly imagine it taking out an Uruk Zerker in one or two shots.

The Keep proper had one entrance, too, tho. At the end of the movie, the Uruk's were banging at the door and couldn't get in by using their catapults (due to it being too high up) IMO as they used battering rams instead.

They used up their stock of explosive on the wall, tho (I think).

They would lose the walls + battlements eventually since they're outnumbered, but win in the keep. Once the fight turns to one-to-one combat (something the Uruks are terrible at) the defenders will win. The Uruk army would get demoralized and flee.

Originally posted by Newjak
Achilles is a very skilled fighter but not better than any of the LOTR fighters imo. I say he's better than all of them. Legolas is a debate but in melee combat, up close, Achilles is better. Not that that means anything here.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
I say he's better than all of them. Legolas is a debate but in melee combat, up close, Achilles is better. Not that that means anything here. Feats man,

Achilles was the best fighter in Troy but even he couldn't just plow through Hector without some difficulty and Hector had trouble with Ajax.

The LOTR characters were crazy with what they fought.

Aragorn, Legolas, even Gimili had some pretty crazy feats taking on Trolls, hordes of Goblins, Worgs, Elephants.

Plus the Uruk Kai army has crossbows something the 300 will have a tough time standing up to.

There is a reason why the Phalanx became outdated in history.

It wasnt because of crosbows, lol. In all actuallity even the confederates considered using spears in the civil war which is a staple of the phallanx. They used it all the way up to the 16-17th century. It got phased out at one point due to romans taking over after alexander the great. They already had their own tactics, and still adopted the phllanx in one way or another. And it ultimately got permanently phased out with the rise of the bayonet.

Originally posted by omgchos
It wasnt because of crosbows, lol. In all actuallity even the confederates considered using spears in the civil war which is a staple of the phallanx. They used it all the way up to the 16-17th century. It got phased out at one point due to romans taking over after alexander the great. They already had their own tactics, and still adopted the phllanx in one way or another. And it ultimately got permanently phased out with the rise of the bayonet. I didn't say phased out I said outdated especially as a stand alone tactic.

It was because the weaknesses of the Phanalax were beginning to become known and exploitable.

Using long range reliable weapons has been a way of wearing down the Phalanx before.

Crossbows are also good at helping large groups of people shoot into tightly knit formations much like the Spartan Phalanx.

The defenders simply don't have the numbers to defend everything.

Plus technologically speaking the Uruk Hai warriors are superior to most of the units with only the Medieval Knights and Balian possessing similar tech.

Originally posted by Newjak
I didn't say phased out I said outdated.

It was because the weaknesses of the Phanalax were beginning to become known and exploitable.

Using long range reliable weapons has been a way of wearing down the Phalanx before.

Crossbows are also good at helping large groups of people shoot into tightly knit formations much like the Spartan Phalanx.

The defenders simply don't have the numbers to defend everything.

Plus technologically speaking the Uruk Hai warriors are superior to most of the units with only the Medieval Knights and Balian possessing similar tech.

Armor/weapons/shields were updated to be made out of steel, tho. Just to update their weaponry.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Armor/weapons/shields were updated to be made out of steel, tho. Just to update their weaponry. Just because you update the metal they use doesn't their mean technology has increased.

If you have people in duel and you give one a flintlock pistol and the other revolver and say the pistol has been updated to fire the same ammunition as the revolver that doesn't mean the flintlock pistol itself is as technological as the revolver.

The Greek Warriors would still have massively exposed areas of flesh, they would still not have crossbows which are Armor piercing weapons.

They still don't have siege weapons to match the Uruk Hai's seige weapons.

They lack the man power to hold all points of contention.

Originally posted by Newjak
Just because you update the metal they use doesn't their mean technology has increased.

If you have people in duel and you give one a flintlock pistol and the other revolver and say the pistol has been updated to fire the same ammunition as the revolver that doesn't mean the flintlock pistol itself is as technological as the revolver.

The Greek Warriors would still have massively exposed areas of flesh, they would still not have crossbows which are Armor piercing weapons.

They still don't have siege weapons to match the Uruk Hai's seige weapons.

They lack the man power to hold all points of contention.

The only thing that the knights have techwise (due to the materials upgrade) vs the phalanx would be chainmail, tho. And that can do very little against crossbows anyway.

Big steel shields in a tigh formation would help, tho

I mentioned defending the upper keep that they used at tbe end of Two Towers (w/c seemed too high in for their laddes/catapults as they were only using battering rams vs the door). It had one entrance connected only by a high narrow bridge. Easily defensible.

Also, I have an argument about Mathayus' bow stopping the Uruo Zerker who triggered the bomb to breach the main wall (see above pls).

Originally posted by Newjak


The Greek Warriors would still have massively exposed areas of flesh, they would still not have crossbows which are Armor piercing weapons.

They still don't have siege weapons to match the Uruk Hai's seige weapons.

They lack the man power to hold all points of contention.

The uruks dont have crossbows, event the far superior equiped forces of mordor didn't have crossbow. Ur thinking of the ballista that they used to fire the grappling hooks for the pull up ladders. Which if i may point out was not how the uruks ultimately penetrated the castle. Even when Gandalf and crew showed up not a single arrow was given that day. Also the uruk that killed boromir wasnt using a crossbow either.

Their seige weapons only ended working even slightly because of sheer numbers, which is all they really have in this fight. Without bows of any kind i dont see them getting through the phalanx, which btw outdated is the same thing as phased out. Thats what you do to something that is outdated or you have no need for. But as i said it wasnt truly phased out until the 16th century.

This is your only valid point but as the movie versions of achiles and his myrmidons were OP in the movie( he was said to be unbeatable in the the myth, tho that is irrelevant here), and Leo + his 300 were almost meta human, they deffintely will stand up to the surprisingly easy to kill giant orc men.

Originally posted by omgchos
The uruks dont have crossbows

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Crossbow

There were crossbows during Two Towers. They just used it once and never seemed to use it again throughout the whole trilogy, tho.

And they only really used it to shoot ppl off the battlements, not in medium ranged combat where crossbows really shine.

Hmm doesnt ring a bell. Seems like it wasnt in wide use then. Did they have regement using them. Ima go watch the battle one more time lol.

Yeah you see them for a few seconds and then they dissapear. lol.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
The only thing that the knights have techwise (due to the materials upgrade) vs the phalanx would be chainmail, tho. And that can do very little against crossbows anyway.

Big steel shields in a tigh formation would help, tho

I mentioned defending the upper keep that they used at tbe end of Two Towers (w/c seemed too high in for their laddes/catapults as they were only using battering rams vs the door). It had one entrance connected only by a high narrow bridge. Easily defensible.

Also, I have an argument about Mathayus' bow stopping the Uruo Zerker who triggered the bomb to breach the main wall (see above pls). They also have better Armor Design and weapons better designed for fighting against Heavily Armored foes I also think some of the Knight from Kingdom of Heaven were using their own Crossbows.

It doesn't matter if they decide to protect the High Keep. They would leave the rest of the area undefended and would end up surrounded and they still don't have an answer for the Invading forces Crossbows.

Also it doesn't matter if Mathayus could stop the one Berserker, cause even if he did they could just send in two after that. Either way that bomb is going off.

Originally posted by Newjak
They also have better Armor Design and weapons better designed for fighting against Heavily Armored foes I also think some of the Knight from Kingdom of Heaven were using their own Crossbows.

It doesn't matter if they decide to protect the High Keep. They would leave the rest of the area undefended and would end up surrounded and they still don't have an answer for the Invading forces Crossbows.

They won't get surrounded defending the high keep's entrance, tho. It's a sealed structure with only one entrance (a narrow elevated bridge).

I just see thick steel tower shields locked together capable of blocking crossbow bolts.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
They won't get surrounded defending the high keep's entrance, tho. It's a sealed structure with only one entrance (a narrow elevated bridge).

I just see thick steel tower shields locked together capable of blocking crossbow bolts. Yeah they will as long as we are thinking the same things. There were multiple areas to get into the position they were blocking the main entrance with.

The Spartans don't have tower shields. They have large rounded shields. That still exposed their lower legs and heads. A team of Uruk hai firing into the Spartan Formation would hurt and disable some of them. It could outright kill others.

And crossbows can pierce steel.

A crossbow cannot pierce steel. Some crossbows cant even make through plate armor.

Originally posted by omgchos
A crossbow cannot pierce steel. Some crossbows cant even make through plate armor. Tell that to a knight who got them through their chests

Originally posted by Newjak
Tell that to a knight who got them through their chests
It's true tho that some crossbow werent al that powerful depending on who the inteded target was. And most of the forces at the deep were only rockin chain mail.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah they will as long as we are thinking the same things. There were multiple areas to get into the position they were blocking the main entrance with.

The Spartans don't have tower shields. They have large rounded shields. That still exposed their lower legs and heads. A team of Uruk hai firing into the Spartan Formation would hurt and disable some of them. It could outright kill others.

And crossbows can pierce steel.

Where the entrances ever shown to be usable in the movie, tho? Doesn't seem to make sense that the only area they seem to be worried about was the main door of the keep and not those other entrances...

KQPFwgQi8z8

Watched 300 clips again, My mistake. I kept seeing them as "Troy" shields for some reason. Lol. Nonetheless, their shields interlocked when they did their phalanx formation w/c would definitely offer some defense to the crossbows.

Tho, I'll have to reiterate that the crossbows got used once and only for shooting ppl off battlements prior to getting the ladders up. They never used it in mid ranged combat. My theory is that they only wanted to use it to clear room for the ladders. Once the ladders were up, Uruk's prefer to fight up close.

300 Elves replaced by 300 Spartans? I'd say that's a downgrade, what with no bows, but... I doubt the Spartans would be so stupid as to break ranks and charge in to a heavy-armored infantry battalion. The Elves were.


I have a feeling that Paris and the Trojan archers are superior to Rohan's rabble of old men and boys. Not Elves though.

In fact, I think everyone on this list is superior to Rohan's rabble of old men and boys. Who have one eye and/or poor nerves.


Achilles, Conan, and Mathayus>>>anything Aragorn or Gimli ever did. Only Legolas isn't satisfyingly replaced. But then again... in that entire battle, with all his archery skill and dagger swinging, he only killed 43/10000. His absence isn't a huge loss. Not to mention his PIS-poor aim with the suicide bomber.



Really, the biggest issue is who's in command and where. Who gets overall strategic command? At least we knew it was Theoden over the Rohirrim, and Aragorn over the Elves. But who command who this time? Issues will arise.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Where the entrances ever shown to be usable in the movie, tho? Doesn't seem to make sense that the only area they seem to be worried about was the main door of the keep and not those other entrances...

KQPFwgQi8z8

Watched 300 clips again, My mistake. I kept seeing them as "Troy" shields for some reason. Lol. Nonetheless, their shields interlocked when they did their phalanx formation w/c would definitely offer some defense to the crossbows.

Tho, I'll have to reiterate that the crossbows got used once and only for shooting ppl off battlements prior to getting the ladders up. They never used it in mid ranged combat. My theory is that they only wanted to use it to clear room for the ladders. Once the ladders were up, Uruk's prefer to fight up close. Obviously if the people can get in and out then they are usable

And what I'm trying to say is if they concentrate all their efforts on the main entrance keep area. The invaders will climb the ladders, the blow the wall and get inside the keep where they will be able to get behind the people defending the main entrance.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien


Achilles, Conan, and Mathayus>>>anything Aragorn or Gimli ever did. Only Legolas isn't satisfyingly replaced. But then again... in that entire battle, with all his archery skill and dagger swinging, he only killed 43/10000. His absence isn't a huge loss. Not to mention his PIS-poor aim with the suicide bomber.

I take issue with this. Aragorn was extremely skilled and had some pretty good feats for him, and he faced much harder competition than anything those 3 faced.

Gimili while not getting many great screen feats did have some good ones. For instance he was able to kill a Worg, snap its rider's neck with one hand. Then he was benching pressing an animal off of him that was about as big as a horse.

Him and Aragorn were fending off the Main Entrance long enough for the people inside to re-enforce it.

Originally posted by Newjak
Obviously if the people can get in and out then they are usable

And what I'm trying to say is if they concentrate all their efforts on the main entrance keep area. The invaders will climb the ladders, the blow the wall and get inside the keep where they will be able to get behind the people defending the main entrance.

The keep had one entrance from the main courtyard IIRC. That's the main door that the uruk's are banging on. Other than that, there's the "secret path that leads into the mountains" and the stairs that lead up to the great horn. Certainly not an open door policy there.

The keep was too high for ladders, I think (it's shaped like a high tower) and uruk's used up their entire explosive load on the main wall, else they wouldn't be using a small portable battering ram on the main keep door.

Seriously, if the uruks did what they did in Two Towers vs the most-certainly-slightly-insane Spartans, they'd be the ones going:

"So much death... What can uruks do against such reckless hate?"

Originally posted by Nibedicus
The keep had one entrance from the main courtyard IIRC. That's the main door that the uruk's are banging on. Other than that, there's the "secret path that leads into the mountains" and the stairs that lead up to the great horn. Certainly not an open door policy there.

The keep was too high for ladders, I think (it's shaped like a high tower) and uruk's used up their entire explosive load on the main wall, else they wouldn't be using a small portable battering ram on the main keep door.

Seriously, if the uruks did what they did in Two Towers vs the most-certainly-slightly-insane Spartans, they'd be the ones going:

"So much death... What can uruks do against such reckless hate?" Okay we are thinking of different areas. I thought you thinking of the main entrance into helm's deep itself.

If they go to that point and surrender their only real fortification positions, the Uruk-hai could just outlast them. They have no supplies, no way of mounting an effective counter attack.

Also if they retreat from the main area into that little place(Assuming they could fit everyone), then they won't have to use the explosive bomb on the wall to get in, they can just batter down the entrance and place at the door to the high tower keep you're talking about light it and boom no more Defenders.

Originally posted by Newjak
Okay we are thinking of different areas. I thought you thinking of the main entrance into helm's deep itself.

If they go to that point and surrender their only real fortification positions, the Uruk-hai could just outlast them. They have no supplies, no way of mounting an effective counter attack.

Also if they retreat from the main area into that little place(Assuming they could fit everyone), then they won't have to use the explosive bomb on the wall to get in, they can just batter down the entrance and place at the door to the high tower keep you're talking about light it and boom no more Defenders.

Maximus would prolly still deploy the majority at the walls (there are still the knights, myrmidons and archers after all) but would withdraw to the keep as soon as the walls are breached (not charge them like lunatics as the elves did. I'd go "elves gooood at shooty not so good at stabby" at Aragorn were I there at Helm's Deep beside im. Lol.) as they wouldn't really know the bomb existed. Aragorn was awesome at inspiring troops but his strategic and tactical acumen pales in comparison to Maximus IMO.

I'd argue that Mathayus would be able to one shot that torch wielding Uruk zerker, tho as his bow hits like a freakin car.

Also, I'd have to disagree about poor supplies. In any siege battle, supplies are protected the most and Helm's Deep, being a defensive fortress designed to break sieges, should have ample supplies. In fact, Theoden's point of withdrawing TO Helm's Deep was to outlast the Uruks.

Theoden: Crops can be re-sown, homes re-built. Within these walls... we will outlast them.

A counter attack is certainly possible once enemy morale is broken with enough casualties. Sometimes, a counter attack isn't even needed.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Maximus would prolly still deploy the majority at the walls (there are still the knights, myrmidons and archers after all) but would withdraw to the keep as soon as the walls are breached (not charge them like lunatics as the elves did. I'd go "elves gooood at shooty not so good at stabby" at Aragorn were I there at Helm's Deep beside im. Lol.) as they wouldn't really know the bomb existed. Aragorn was awesome at inspiring troops but his strategic and tactical acumen pales in comparison to Maximus IMO.

I'd argue that Mathayus would be able to one shot that torch wielding Uruk zerker, tho as his bow hits like a freakin car.

Also, I'd have to disagree about poor supplies. In any siege battle, supplies are protected the most and Helm's Deep, being a defensive fortress designed to break sieges, should have ample supplies. In fact, Theoden's point of withdrawing TO Helm's Deep was to outlast the Uruks.

Theoden: Crops can be re-sown, homes re-built. Within these walls... we will outlast them.

A counter attack is certainly possible once enemy moral is broken with enough casualties. Sometimes, a counter attack isn't even needed. Then they've lost the majority of their forces and would be relying on the Spartans to keep the inner sanctum safe.

And Legolas shows that Elves are very good at stabby. The reason why the Elves stayed where they were at was so the other people had time to retreat to the area you are talking about.

You do realize there is a difference between outlasting someone while you are within the walls and they aren't compared to them being inside the walls as well.

He may take out the one torch wielding Uruk - Hai doesn't mean he will do it when they decide to send two in the next time.

Let me get this straight you think an entire fighting force retreating into a very small room, with most of their supplies outside, is going to outlast and demoralize a bunch of monster men?

The Uruk-Hai are better than anything these forces faced. They are more heavily armed, armored, and much better fighters than your standard Persain/Greek/Knight Templar fighter in their respective movies.

Originally posted by Newjak
I take issue with this. Aragorn was extremely skilled and had some pretty good feats for him, and he faced much harder competition than anything those 3 faced.

Gimili while not getting many great screen feats did have some good ones. For instance he was able to kill a Worg, snap its rider's neck with one hand. Then he was benching pressing an animal off of him that was about as big as a horse.

Him and Aragorn were fending off the Main Entrance long enough for the people inside to re-enforce it. Yeah... that says more about the shittiness of Uruk-hai than the skill of Aragorn. Aragorn and Gimli are impressive for their endurance, not their incredible fighting prowess.


That's not to say they aren't really good, compared to normal people. But compared to their fellow movie warriors, they're very average. A LOT of endurance--being able to take the falls they do, fight for as long as they do-- but skill, swiftness, reflexes... those are all things Uruks and Orcs are shown to lack. Even Merry and Pippin soloed their fair share. Aragorn was given hell by Lurtz. There's no way someone like Achilles wouldn't have cut him down in seconds. Endurance and brute strength are great(!) but they won't defeat speed and skill.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah... that says more about the shittiness of Uruk-hai than the skill of Aragorn. Aragorn and Gimli are impressive for their endurance, not their incredible fighting prowess.


That's not to say they aren't really good, compared to normal people. But compared to their fellow movie warriors, they're very average. A LOT of endurance--being able to take the falls they do, fight for as long as they do-- but skill, swiftness, reflexes... those are all things Uruks and Orcs are shown to lack. Even Merry and Pippin soloed their fair share. Aragorn was given hell by Lurtz. There's no way someone like Achilles wouldn't have cut him down in seconds. Endurance and brute strength are great(!) but they won't defeat speed and skill. They fought Trolls man.

A single Troll would have devastated the Spartans, Achilles and his Mymodans, the Knights.

Swiftness Aragorn was able to swiftly dispatch foes so was Gimili.

And Lurtz was able to toss a shield with such accuracy, skill, and strength that he perfectly trapped Aragorn's head in it. Lurtz was obviously a formidable opponent and based on that one feat is tougher and better and more skilled than anything Achilles fought.

Originally posted by Newjak
Then they've lost the majority of their forces and would be relying on the Spartans to keep the inner sanctum safe.

And Legolas shows that Elves are very good at stabby. The reason why the Elves stayed where they were at was so the other people had time to retreat to the area you are talking about.

You do realize there is a difference between outlasting someone while you are within the walls and they aren't compared to them being inside the walls as well.

He may take out the one torch wielding Uruk - Hai doesn't mean he will do it when they decide to send two in the next time.

Let me get this straight you think an entire fighting force retreating into a very small room, with most of their supplies outside, is going to outlast and demoralize a bunch of monster men?

The Uruk-Hai are better than anything these forces faced. They are more heavily armed, armored, and much better fighters than your standard Persain/Greek/Knight Templar fighter in their respective movies.

Did you see the size of that door? Barely 2-3 uruks at a time could get thru. Added to a narror corridor and you have Hot Gates version 2 right there. A much smaller one. You won't need all 300 spartans to guard that.

Also, that wasn't a small room. A narrow one, yes. But it had enough room to stash like close to 20 horses off screen as well as all the women and children (off screen as well) in the movie. A smart general (like Maximus) would fill these rooms with supplies first instead of horses and women/children.

Will certainly NOT store supplies near the walls or open courtyards where siege weapons, fire arrows and rot from dead bodies would get to them.

Not to mention the "secret path into the mountains" could well be a good place to store more supplies (also, Maximus/Leonidas/Balian would no doubt ASK if there was such a path EARLY. Seriously, who would FORGET to ask ppl about a secret escape path til much later when the battle has turned REAL badly?? That's some pretty crucial terrain/environment info missing from the battle plan right there).

Uruks were strong and savage. But were highly disorganized outside of the preplanned battle strat they had at the start of the battle. The concept of formations, flanking, skirmishing, maneuvering, etc. or overall warfare tactics just didnt exist that much for the LoTR bad guys (in the movies anyway).

PS. Didn't day Elves were BAD at stabby. Just nowhere as good as the shooty part. A smarter (and more ruthless) general would have let the weaker soldiers cover the elite soldier's retreat and not vice versa.

PPS. If they let them torch wielders do the olympics walk with all the other uruks's standing aside instead of shielding him, then I'd say Mathayus would take em down even two at a time.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Did you see the size of that door? Barely 2-3 uruks at a time could get thru. Added to a narror corridor and you have Hot Gates version 2 right there. A much smaller one. You won't need all 300 spartans to guard that.

Also, that wasn't a small room. A narrow one, yes. But it had enough room to stash like close to 20 horses off screen as well as all the women and children (off screen as well) in the movie. A smart general (like Maximus) would fill these rooms with supplies first instead of horses and women/children.

Will certainly NOT store supplies near the walls or open courtyards where siege weapons, fire arrows and rot from dead bodies would get to them.

Not to mention the "secret path into the mountains" could well be a good place to store more supplies (also, Maximus/Leonidas/Balian would no doubt ASK if there was such a path EARLY. Seriously, who would FORGET to ask ppl about a secret escape path til much later when the battle has turned REAL badly?? That's some pretty crucial terrain/environment info missing from the battle plan right there).

Uruks were strong and savage. But were highly disorganized outside of the preplanned battle strat they had at the start of the battle. The concept of formations, flanking, skirmishing, maneuvering, etc. or overall warfare tactics just didnt exist that much for the LoTR bad guys (in the movies anyway). How much time do these guys have to prepare it wasn't like the Fellowship had days to prepare for the fighting.

You also have no idea how big these escape paths are, nor where they lead or even if they could half the supplies needed to alst more than a week in that room.

Basically anyone outside of that little keep is going to die once they get surrounded.

The Spartans are arguably the best fighting force here and they are a downgrade from the Elves yet you expect them to be the trump card in this battle.

I honestly think you are overselling the Spartans. The Uruk-Hai won't go down as easily as the Persians did. They are to heavily armed, armed for that. Just because they only used the crossbows a few times doesn't mean they aren't there and can not be used.

Edit: Mathayus wasn't exactly a speed shooter nor was he better than Legolas nor can you prove one arrow from him will be enough to stop the Uruk-Hai warrior. It also took him quite a bit of time to line up that bad@ss shot you keep mentioning on the king guy.

They are still better at stabby stabby than the Spartans.

It would stand to reason that the main supplies would be in the deepest most defended part of a siege fortress. With that in mind, Theoden (who's extremely familar with the keep as well as siege warfare) mentioned that he had more than enough supplies to outlast the uruks outside the wall with his army plus women and children. A smaller army (due to losses) would need much less. It would not be an unreasonable assertion that they'd have more than enough supplies here.

Again, keep's not little. Enough room for all his women/children villagers as well as 20 horses. But yes, anyone outside the keep would be no doubt overwhelmed. But the keep was designed for layered defend->retreat to next defensible position->defend-> retreat to next defensible position combat. They'd lose many but as Maximus is a better commander than Theoden or Aragorn, I'd say enough of the elite troops would survive to hold at the keep.

Myrmidons weren't bad either. And can you imagine Achiless, Conan, Mathayus and Maximus standing side-by-side with the Spartans holding a narrow corridor against a somewhat disorganized attackers trickling thru a narrow door? It would be a massacre. Eventually. They'd be able to build a corpse-wall made out of Uruk bodies, IMO.

I agree that we don't know how big the escape paths are, but as they are paths, more supplies can be stashed lineary on it.

Not overselling the Spartans IMO. Their organizatiom and battle tactics make them a nightmare for the poorly organized Uruks.

Also, again, IIRC they never used the crossbows EVER outside of just shooting ppl off the battlements. They exist, yes, but the Uruks were prolly too battle and blood hungry to use them effectively to break lines.

Edit. They were spotted in the mid afternoon IIRC and arrived at nightfall (Tho, again Maximus would have had mounted scouts patrolling the countryside who would have spotted them wayyy earlier than Aragorn did, I mean it's a freakin HORDE slow-marching towards your keep. And they really weren't trying to be quiet about it. Spotting them isn't really a problem). At least several hours notice. More than enough to set up a battle plan.

Originally posted by Newjak
Edit: Mathayus wasn't exactly a speed shooter nor was he better than Legolas nor can you prove one arrow from him will be enough to stop the Uruk-Hai warrior. It also took him quite a bit of time to line up that bad@ss shot you keep mentioning on the king guy.

They are still better at stabby stabby than the Spartans.

That run took a while, tho, and IIRC, I remember him shooting not so slowly at the start of the movie. And you gotta admit, the king killshot was slow for dramaric effect.

I'd argue that. Legolas was an exception to the rule, no doubt. But I never really saw any impressive no-name elf feat outside of their stealth and archery. Plus no shields = automatically less effective in a formation.

Originally posted by Newjak
They fought Trolls man.

A single Troll would have devastated the Spartans, Achilles and his Mymodans, the Knights.

Swiftness Aragorn was able to swiftly dispatch foes so was Gimili.

And Lurtz was able to toss a shield with such accuracy, skill, and strength that he perfectly trapped Aragorn's head in it. Lurtz was obviously a formidable opponent and based on that one feat is tougher and better and more skilled than anything Achilles fought. A single troll would have taken a spear through the eye and dropped like a rhino. A single troll would also let a couple of midgets outwit him. Irrelevant since no trolls were at Helm's Deep.

So was Sam. And Merry. And Eowyn. Your sentence went nowhere.

Lurtz was a b*tch. But he'd go down Boagrius style to Achilles. Or Mathayus. Or Conan. Aragorn had no screen feats more impressive than any of them. Neither did Gimli. And the two of them have been replaced by warriors far more formidable than they.

Originally posted by Newjak
They fought Trolls man.

A single Troll would have devastated the Spartans, Achilles and his Mymodans, the Knights.

Swiftness Aragorn was able to swiftly dispatch foes so was Gimili.

And Lurtz was able to toss a shield with such accuracy, skill, and strength that he perfectly trapped Aragorn's head in it. Lurtz was obviously a formidable opponent and based on that one feat is tougher and better and more skilled than anything Achilles fought.

They fought that troll as a whole group and let's face it, without Legolas they wouldn't have brought it down as timely as they did... and yet even then they got pretty beaten up.

Aragorn and Gimli fought they're own share of fodder just like Achilles did (Urukai and Goblins vs. Trojans) but when it came to harder opponents you see the difference. Aragorn was getting hit and beat up by some opponents (Lurtz) and Gimli was getting hit by the normal rabble of worg riders. If Aragorn (or was it Legolas?) hadn't saved Gimli from that worg he'd be dead.

Achilles on the other hand walked through every competition he ever had with ease. He went through the whole war without a single hit except a scratch on his armor.

Legolas is on a whole different level though. I can't see anyone of the said warriors on this thread capable of replicating his feats. In fact if he was the one who faced Lurtz I have a feeling he'd have dispatched him way easier than Aragorn did.

In any case, we're still both in agreement that the Urukai end up conquering Helm's deep in this scenario.

Originally posted by FrothByte
In any case, we're still both in agreement that the Urukai end up conquering Helm's deep in this scenario.

An argument can certainly made for that. But, how do you think the Uruks would overwhelm the Spartans in the narrow building at the end of Two Towers?

Narrow corridor, narrower door, high bridge blocking access to it and protecting it from siege weapons, poor Uruk tactics (such as not using the crossbows effectively), more than adequate defender supplies, etc would really render a lot of the (edit!) Uruk's numbers useless.

Also, I think a lot of people are forgetting the Spartan's almost-superhuman "feats" here like one shotting a rhino with a THROWN spear and jumping ten feet in the air.

Originally posted by Newjak
Feats man,

Achilles was the best fighter in Troy but even he couldn't just plow through Hector without some difficulty and Hector had trouble with Ajax.

The LOTR characters were crazy with what they fought.

Aragorn, Legolas, even Gimili had some pretty crazy feats taking on Trolls, hordes of Goblins, Worgs, Elephants.

Plus the Uruk Kai army has crossbows something the 300 will have a tough time standing up to.

There is a reason why the Phalanx became outdated in history. If you look at the fight it looked liked Achilles wanted Hector to suffer, he was toying with him.

He definitely didn't have difficulty beating him.

He almost let a stone steal his glory.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
An argument can certainly made for that. But, how do you think the Uruks would overwhelm the Spartans in the narrow building at the end of Two Towers?

Narrow corridor, narrower door, high bridge blocking access to it and protecting it from siege weapons, poor Uruk tactics (such as not using the crossbows effectively), more than adequate defender supplies, etc would really render a lot of the (edit!) Uruk's numbers useless.

Also, I think a lot of people are forgetting the Spartan's almost-superhuman "feats" here like one shotting a rhino with a THROWN spear and jumping ten feet in the air.

In that narrow corridor where barely 3 people could fit chest to chest (let alone men carrying shields) the Spartan's phalanx wouldn't really be a phalanx. I mean, could you imagine a phalanx only 3 men wide?

Granted, a lot of Urukai will die charging that, but the sheer weight of the Urukai numbers should be enough to push the phalanx off balance. Either that, or dead Urukai start piling up high enough that Urukai climb up their dead brethren and attack the 300 from an elevated platform.

Originally posted by Newjak
They lose eventually, Balain was good at delaying things but he was never going to win his fight he just needed to make it at as costly as possible so he could negotiate terms with the Muslims.

The Persain Archers were not better than Elven Archers

Achilles is a very skilled fighter but not better than any of the LOTR fighters imo.

The 300 would be overrun from the sheer tidal wave of monsters coming at them. Plus the Uru-Kai were much better armed and organized than what the Spartans fought. The Immortals were able to kill a few Spartans I think the Uru-kai were much better than them.

They may kill many but the forces will get over run.

Exactly. Uruks were dervishes of destruction when compared to the conventional Orc.