Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57559261/children-gunman-dead-in-conn-elementary-school-shooting/




I really really really detest this type of shit. Why did this shooting happen? Why the kids, FFS? I want to know more about this. But does this really make a case for more gun control or is this a symptom of another problem? How can we stop shit like this from happening?

Waits for: "If there where more guns and the teachers were armed, this wouldn't have happened".

Edit: May fav response in the responses.

"I am not a Bible thumper by any stretch of the imagination, but this is what happens when we take God out of our society because allowing people in our society to be Christian is so offensive. No one respects human life anymore and we see more and more of this happening as we become more and more detached as a society."

Just has to use a horrific incident as a springboard to push own personal belief of God. Assclown.

Originally posted by Robtard
Waits for: "If there where more guns and the teachers were armed, this wouldn't have happened".

I just can't say that about this situation. This is an Elementary School not a college. There are no armed guards at almost every Elementary school in the US, as well. There is pretty much no avoiding this type of shit in elementary school and the "arm everyone!" answer just won't cut it.

We need to know more, of course. I'm sure others will update this thread with more information as they discover it. But there still has to be a solution.


Originally posted by Robtard
"I am not a Bible thumper by any stretch of the imagination, but this is what happens when we take God out of our society because allowing people in our society to be Christian is so offensive. No one respects human life anymore and we see more and more of this happening as we become more and more detached as a society."

Just has to use a horrific incident to as a springboard to push own personal belief of God. Assclown.

I may agree with that person if Christianity meant what it did waaaaaaay back in the day where: individuals would knowingly contract deadly diseases to take care of perfect strangers as required by "Christian Doctrine", Christians were not among the most-war-mongering US Citizens which is contrary to Christian Doctrine.

To state it more succinctly, I may agree with that notion if Christians were actually Christians these days (oooooh! Sick burrrn!)

I'm a little jaded, I used to post in a board that was filled with Far Right Conservatives and Religious whacks; that was there standard answer to every "shooting" incident.

eg Columbine = Need more guns


But to the story, said the shooter (or at least one of the shooters) was a 20 year old father of a child that went to the school.

Originally posted by dadudemon
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57559261/children-gunman-dead-in-conn-elementary-school-shooting/




I really really really detest this type of shit. Why did this shooting happen? Why the kids, FFS? I want to know more about this. But does this really make a case for more gun control or is this a symptom of another problem? How can we stop shit like this from happening?

I come from a place where guns a prohibited..... cept for the dealers.

And everyday I'm surprised North America isn't riddled with school shootings every week considering their easy distribution of weapons.

Every geek on the street who feels insecure, every confused durbrain who wants revenge on those who made him feel small.

Just shoot em, is all that runs through their heads.
With the freaks I have to watch everyday I thank HeyZues above that we don't have guns lying around every corner.

Originally posted by Robtard
I'm a little jaded, I used to post in a board that was filled with Far Right Conservatives and Religious whacks; that was there standard answer to every "shooting" incident.

eg Columbine = Need more guns


But to the story, said the shooter (or at least one of the shooters) was a 20 year old father of a child that went to the school.
Yeah a guy at work is like that. Every time anything happens he goes on massive rants and preaching about how everyone needs to have guns and lessening of the requirements so we can personally stop all crime.

Can you imagine the daily bloodshed if just about everyone was packing and were pulling out their guns are every perceived "crime."

Originally posted by dadudemon
I just can't say that about this situation. This is an Elementary School not a college. There are no armed guards at almost every Elementary school in the US, as well. There is pretty much no avoiding this type of shit in elementary school and the "arm everyone!" answer just won't cut it.

Where I lived we had a cop in school almost every day during elementary school and on staff at my highschool. I doubt its super expensive.

God, this is just horrific. I really wish this would stop. But banning guns simply woulddn't work given that there are already about 300 million of them in the US. In his propoganda film "Bowling for Columbine" spin doctor Michael Moore even admits the media are probably the primary cause for this type of thing. But I'm not for supressing free speech either. I just don't know the answer.

Wish Lanza would have been taken alive so he could face the parents in a courtroom.....before he got the needle

Information is not being generated fast enough for this. I want to know his reasons. I have guesses that are probably close but it is quite obvious a piece of shit like this is a coward. Why not try this at a police station (I'm guessing on his reasons)? Seems he could have gotten closer to the point if he'd done that. Much less loss of life and it would have happened to people who were reasonably prepared for something like that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
(I'm guessing on his reasons)

Let's not do that. Our information on cases like this is distorted by haste on the part of the media. Why deliberately deceive ourselves?

It's been said that his mother was a teacher the the school. He shot her and took some of the pupils with him.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Let's not do that. Our information on cases like this is distorted by haste on the part of the media. Why deliberately deceive ourselves?

Because I don't have to worry about wrong guesses: I am not a professional member of the media. This is a discussion board and we can definitely make guesses, here.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Because I don't have to worry about wrong guesses: I am not a professional member of the media. This is a discussion board and we can definitely make guesses, here.

So you just want to whip yourself into a frenzy? I guess that's a human reaction to tragedy. Why not engage in emotional masturbation with something entirely imaginary, though?

Originally posted by Robtard
Waits for: "If there where more guns and the teachers were armed, this wouldn't have happened".

Edit: May fav response in the responses.

"I am not a Bible thumper by any stretch of the imagination, but this is what happens when we take God out of our society because allowing people in our society to be Christian is so offensive. No one respects human life anymore and we see more and more of this happening as we become more and more detached as a society."

Just has to use a horrific incident as a springboard to push own personal belief of God. Assclown.

He was expressing how he felt, just as you are. What concerns me is that in the midst of this tragedy, you took the time to cherry pick through hundreds of comments to insult someone who believes in something you don't. How does that make you any different than him?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Information is not being generated fast enough for this.

Maybe it's being generated too fast. Maybe information overload and media saturation is contributing to this type of thing. I have a feeling many of these shooters just might be doing this type of thing for their 15 minutes

Originally posted by Grinning Goku
How does that make you any different than him?

I'm not sure if I can express to you how little sense that question makes in context.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'm not sure if I can express to you how little sense that question makes in context.
OK. He hits out at this person for using a message board as a soapbox to voice his personal spiritual beliefs and proceeds to insult them. He used THIS message board to voice his belief regarding the other person's belief. So in my eyes, he's doing the same thing he loathes the other person for. Pretty simple, I think.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So you just want to whip yourself into a frenzy? I guess that's a human reaction to tragedy. Why not engage in emotional masturbation with something entirely imaginary, though?

Can you explain to me how my comment was "whipping myself into a frenzy"?

Symmetric Chaos, you're just messin' with me, right? 313



Originally posted by Archaeopteryx
Maybe it's being generated too fast. Maybe information overload and media saturation is contributing to this type of thing. I have a feeling many of these shooters just might be doing this type of thing for their 15 minutes

There are at least of a couple of areas in psychology that make* you right, actually.

*I don't know if that is the right word.

Originally posted by Grinning Goku
OK. He hits out at this person for using a message board as a soapbox to voice his personal spiritual beliefs and proceeds to insult them. He used THIS message board to voice his belief regarding the other person's belief. So in my eyes he's doing the same thing he loathes the other person for. Pretty simple, I think.

I understood that, as well: seemed simple to me. However, I love Robby too much to hate on him for doing that. inlove We are probably getting off topic, though.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Wish Lanza would have been taken alive so he could face the parents in a courtroom.....before he got the needle

There is nothing you could do to him (if he was taken alive) that would a) bring back anyone or b) punish him in accordance with his heinous deeds.

I only saw one "we need God" post in my newsfeed, among many more reasonable reactions, so that's promising.

The quickest buzzkill on the religion things is that we're one of the most religious countries on Earth. But the reverse, that lack of religion causes less shootings, seems almost as silly. So obviously religion one way or another doesn't have much to do with this.

BUT, if we want to look for societal trends, we might onto something. America has something like 3x the school shooting in the last 8 years than the rest of the world combined. It's identifying the cause that's tricky. Gun control laws? Media tendencies? Something within the education system? Religious polarization? There are options. I have no easy answer.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Can you explain to me how my comment was "whipping myself into a frenzy"?

Symmetric Chaos, you're just messin' with me, right? 313

He's basically asking you what the point of speculating is. There doesn't seem to be one. I tend to agree. Ruminating on hypotheticals is fruitless, at best.

Do we know how long this shooting took place? Some are saying arming the teachers and requiring training would have saved lives. I think I agree. But let us assume most elementary school teachers care about kids (true) and would be very emotionally distraught when seeing something like this happen and probably miss once or twice...possibly killing a kid or two (probably true...don't know).


Originally posted by Digi
He's basically asking you what the point of speculating is. There doesn't seem to be one. I tend to agree. Ruminating on hypotheticals is fruitless, at best.

I thought most threads required speculation in one form or another. If you think speculating is pointless, then there pretty much is no point to any thread outside of the OTF. And, based on another's post, it would seem he was enraged at "the system" in one form or another so it seems my speculation was legit. I see no point to balk at speculation besides to chest puff and troll.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Do we know how long this shooting took place? Some are saying arming the teachers and requiring training would have saved lives. I think I agree. But let us assume most elementary school teachers care about kids (true) and would be very emotionally distraught when seeing something like this happen and probably miss once or twice...possibly killing a kid or two (probably true...don't know).

This sort of response seems intuitively right. I have no doubt it would have been less of a tragedy if the teachers were armed. It's almost impossible to argue otherwise, even if there are risks of hitting someone else. But that's not the equation we're dealing with. The actual equation includes this tragedy vs. the potential accidents of deputizing a teaching force. Misfires, misuse, lack of training, kids stealing the weapons provided to teachers, etc. etc.

Originally posted by Grinning Goku
There is nothing you could do to him (if he was taken alive) that would a) bring back anyone or b) punish him in accordance with his heinous deeds. Wouldn't stop it from being satisfying as all hell.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wouldn't stop it from being satisfying as all hell.

Tru dat. The only thing I cam think of is somehow killing him 26 times in different ways only to revive him one last time so that he can face all of the parents, and all other loved ones that were impacted by his actions, so that they can insult and berate him like the animal he is. Finally, he should be tortured to death over a period of 26 months (if he doesn't die first) then left to rot in a prison for the rest of his life. Or not.

Originally posted by Grinning Goku
He was expressing how he felt, just as you are. What concerns me is that in the midst of this tragedy, you took the time to cherry pick through hundreds of comments to insult someone who believes in something you don't. How does that make you any different than him?

Actually I've yet to post an expression of why this happened.

You shouldn't be concerned, only looked at the first page and that one was in the top 3 post of about 15, at the time.

Different? You tell me, how am I being an assclown when I've yet to blind-blame someone or something for this tragedy or try to use it as a means to push my opinions on a belief? I definitely didn't say "this happened because there's too much god!"

When seconds count, cops are only minutes away.



As for the teachers carrying guns, well, it sounds a littler slippery. It would indeed prevent this but not always and it could cause more trouble if the mass of american teachers are doing it. The only way I see that working is if they keep the gun on them while the clip stays locked in their desk. Separated from the gun.

Originally posted by Robtard
Actually I've yet to post an expression of why this happened.

You shouldn't be concerned, only looked at the first page and that one was in the top 3 post of about 15, at the time.

Different? You tell me, how am I being an assclown when I've yet to blind-blame someone or something for this tragedy or try to use it as a means to push my opinions on a belief? I definitely didn't say "this happened because there's too much god!"

I never called you an assclown.

Originally posted by Digi
This sort of response seems intuitively right. I have no doubt it would have been less of a tragedy if the teachers were armed. It's almost impossible to argue otherwise, even if there are risks of hitting someone else. But that's not the equation we're dealing with. The actual equation includes this tragedy vs. the potential accidents of deputizing a teaching force. Misfires, misuse, lack of training, kids stealing the weapons provided to teachers, etc. etc.

...actually, even that equation isn't quite right. Because we're looking at this after the fact where something bad DID happen. So, like, 27 deaths vs. the potential risk of deputizing a teaching force in this school...the "giving them guns" argument wins handily. But let's take a particular county. You give each teacher a weapon and some training. At this point, it's not accident risk vs. 27 deaths, but accident risk vs. a potential shooting. And, much as these things seem more common, the chances of NOT facing an attack are far greater than of facing one.

So accident risk vs. the easily < 1% chance of this happening (we'll say in a 10-year span for simplicity), at which point any single death as a result of teachers having guns is much more than enough to swing the argument in favor of not providing them.

It's not a locktight argument, but it's why there's debate on this subject.

Originally posted by Grinning Goku
I never called you an assclown.

It was implied. I said he/she was an "assclown", you posed that I was no different.

So?

leave it to Rob to make this about himself. sneer

Originally posted by Robtard
It was implied. I said he/she was an "assclown", you posed that I was no different.

So?

I'm saying that you both exercised your right to self expression. That's all. Calm down.

Originally posted by marwash22
leave it to Rob to make this about himself. sneer

I feel like the "thoughts and prayers" sentiments that we're required to include on Facebook for social reasons are implied here. No one's that heartless. But they're also superfluous here on KMC, amidst discussion that's still on point but of a different nature than simply sympathizing.

What's known about the shooter? Did he have any outstanding mental health problems?

Originally posted by Grinning Goku
I'm saying that you both exercised your right to self expression. That's all. Calm down.

Except no. I didn't go out and blame someone/thing and make it about "this is what happens when you can't be a Christian", while self promoting my personal beliefs.

I did express my right to self expression in calling that person an assclown for his/her statement, which is funny, since you're bashing me on that. So if any one needs calming down, it's you.

IMO, it's best to wait a day or more; let the facts come out, before you start blaming. Could very well be that this guy is certifiably insane and he did it because he thought God was speaking to him and telling him to. Who the hell knows right now.

Originally posted by Digi
I feel like the "thoughts and prayers" sentiments that we're required to include on Facebook for social reasons are implied here. No one's that heartless. Ahem.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Can you explain to me how my comment was "whipping myself into a frenzy"?

You were getting angry and accusatory about the possible motives you though he might have. What if his point was "education has turned our children into mindless slaves and by killing them they are set free"? He couldn't make that point at a police station. Your speculated motives and intended statements are just whatever will make you feel angry and righteous.

Originally posted by Robtard
Can you imagine the daily bloodshed if just about everyone was packing and were pulling out their guns are every perceived "crime." It would be an interesting experiment in biological, technological and societal evolution, to see what (if anything) is selected for as the population whittles itself down.

Originally posted by Mindship
It would be an interesting experiment in biological, technological and societal evolution, to see what (if anything) is selected for as the population whittles itself down.

Wealth. Good body armor is expensive or difficult to make.

Originally posted by Mindship
It would be an interesting experiment in biological, technological and societal evolution, to see what (if anything) is selected for as the population whittles itself down.

Ha. You and your "science".

more guns wouldn't solve the problem.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/bcf3a9edb08df4d25f715a1c4efb64e5/tumblr_mf1fki5TTR1ri2mfro1_1280.jpg

+

http://25.media.tumblr.com/d673aaf08740c931b5d75cbef4235bfa/tumblr_mf1ejo3Hgm1r2pghbo1_400.png

LolZ

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Wealth. Good body armor is expensive or difficult to make. Telepresence / telecommuting could be a cheaper alternative.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ha. You and your "science". Would've made a good Serling Twilight Zone episode, I'll bet.

Originally posted by Mindship
Telepresence / telecommuting could be a cheaper alternative.

Wealth. Hardened telecommunications channels and armored delivery services are expensive.

is anyone more outraged or saddened because it was children who were killed?

Originally posted by marwash22
is anyone more outraged or saddened because it was children who were killed?

Not to belittle the loss of anyone's mother, father, adult sister, brother, uncle etc., but yes, it makes me angrier and sadder when children are the targets.

that seems to be the way most people feel.

I guess I'm weird because it wouldn't have been any less disgusting or heartbreaking to me if it were 40 year old adults who were the victims.

Originally posted by marwash22
that seems to be the way most people feel.

I guess I'm weird because it wouldn't have been any less disgusting or heartbreaking to me if it were 40 year old adults who were the victims.

The easy answer would be "you're not a parent,so you don't have the 'must protect' instinct", but I don't necessarily think that is the correct all encompassing answer.

Originally posted by Mindship
It would be an interesting experiment in biological, technological and societal evolution, to see what (if anything) is selected for as the population whittles itself down.

I agree.

Originally posted by Robtard
http://25.media.tumblr.com/bcf3a9edb08df4d25f715a1c4efb64e5/tumblr_mf1fki5TTR1ri2mfro1_1280.jpg

+

http://25.media.tumblr.com/d673aaf08740c931b5d75cbef4235bfa/tumblr_mf1ejo3Hgm1r2pghbo1_400.png

LolZ

Oh good God. I hope that dude gets a fat paycheck from Fox or CNN. He's going to be receiving death threats and hate mail within the hour.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You were getting angry and accusatory about the possible motives you though he might have.

I was? I thought I was wondering why he didn't try to stick it to the system by storming a police station? It seems to get more to the point, don't you think?


Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What if his point was "education has turned our children into mindless slaves and by killing them they are set free"?

Could be...but since he had a student there, seems less likely than: he was just trying to stick it to a system he was extremely angry with.


Originally posted by Digi
...actually, even that equation isn't quite right. Because we're looking at this after the fact where something bad DID happen. So, like, 27 deaths vs. the potential risk of deputizing a teaching force in this school...the "giving them guns" argument wins handily. But let's take a particular county. You give each teacher a weapon and some training. At this point, it's not accident risk vs. 27 deaths, but accident risk vs. a potential shooting. And, much as these things seem more common, the chances of NOT facing an attack are far greater than of facing one.

So accident risk vs. the easily < 1% chance of this happening (we'll say in a 10-year span for simplicity), at which point any single death as a result of teachers having guns is much more than enough to swing the argument in favor of not providing them.

It's not a locktight argument, but it's why there's debate on this subject.


Consider the following:

A handgun exists that only fires when the owner of the handgun is holding it correctly.


I can think of 2 technological methods that this could work and a 3rd which already exists (which I obviously did not think of).

Does that change the equation you had even a little?


Originally posted by marwash22
I guess I'm weird because it wouldn't have been any less disgusting or heartbreaking to me if it were 40 year old adults who were the victims.

Well...kids and animals (yes, I went there) are seen as more innocent and pure than 40 year old adults. Also, the kids have not gotten to live a life, yet. Most 40 year olds have experienced life with an adult mind. I must say that if given the choice between a complete 8 year old stranger and my own life, I'd logical chose the kid's life: I've lived quite a long time the kid should have a chance to at least live as long as I have. But I'm placing value on experience and knowledge that comes from that which is technically an extension of the ontological argument for the existence of God: to exist is better than not to exist. I'm just adding a time-frame in there: to exist longer is better than not to exist.

Edit - I think most people are thinking the same thing, but just not in those exact words, when they are saying that dead kids are worse than dead adults.

Originally posted by Digi

He's going to be receiving death threats and hate mail within the hour.

Check and check.

They're saying it's his brother, Adam, who's the dead shooter.

They probably should have checked before they plastered his picture and name everywhere...

Probably a rush to be the first with the "breaking news"; facts be damned.

Originally posted by Robtard
Could very well be that this guy is certifiably insane and he did it because he thought God was speaking to him and telling him to. Who the hell knows right now.

NOTE: I understand many of you will look at my post with a "What the heck?" kid of look. Now that we've gotten that out of the way...

It could also very well be that this guy is demon-possessed to the toenails and he did it because Satan (or some other demon) posing as God was speaking to him and telling him to. Who the heck knows right now?

In the occult, the highest sacrifice one can make is a child. I'm not saying he was an occultist, but you don't have to be an occultist to be possessed. And nothing makes Satan happier than defiling innocence.

Originally posted by Digi
I agree.

Oh good God. I hope that dude gets a fat paycheck from Fox or CNN. He's going to be receiving death threats and hate mail within the hour.

Heard it was his brother using his ID.

Anyway, why not just have an undercover, armed and trained "school marshal" (similar to an air marshal) in schools? I'm feeling that in any area where masses of civilians are common, there should be someone armed and trained who can at least out a stop to these things.

I know that the local police/city government would never be able to all the bases, but maybe if you let the parents, customers, etc foot some of the bill, you'd at least be able to pay for the salary of at least one trained/armed marshal.

In my country, every place has an armed security guard (usually a pistol or rifle) schools would havd a few, cinemas several and malls would have literally dozens and, to my memory, there has been zero incidence of school/mall/cinema/etc shooting like ever. Tho, I'm not using that as an indicator of anything.

Has there been ANY instance where a shooter went berzerk in an area where there was at least the immediatr risk of an armed response?

Originally posted by Bat Dude
NOTE: I understand many of you will look at my post with a "What the heck?" kid of look. Now that we've gotten that out of the way...

It could also very well be that this guy is demon-possessed to the toenails and he did it because Satan (or some other demon) posing as God was speaking to him and telling him to. Who the heck knows right now?

In the occult, the highest sacrifice one can make is a child. I'm not saying he was an occultist, but you don't have to be an occultist to be possessed. And nothing makes Satan happier than defiling innocence.

I'd drop that in the "certifiably insane" bucket too, but that's just me.

A better solution that giving teachers guns is for parents of children that attend schools to get together and hire security with their own money. If they truely care about the safety of their children.


Teachers can snap.



I wish I saw this much outrage over the kids we're killing with our forieng policy. But americans will care about the americans.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Consider the following:

A handgun exists that only fires when the owner of the handgun is holding it correctly.


I can think of 2 technological methods that this could work and a 3rd which already exists (which I obviously did not think of).

Does that change the equation you had even a little?

Of course it does. It's a good point. And my "equation" wasn't perfect to begin with. It was essentially just a series of variable, for which we don't have exact values.

But it doesn't change the central debate. The point was: the instinctual tendency to believe that putting a gun in the teachers' hands is a good thing, is flawed. Or at least, it's only looking at the side that supports doing it without considering everything else. You're clever enough to realize this, but the way you presented the argument is the way MANY people present the argument, and it's not a fair assessment of the issue.

I don't really have a stance on gun control, much as this may seem that I'm advocating for more of it. I just dislike talking points that aren't comprehensive enough to be balanced.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well...kids and animals (yes, I went there) are seen as more innocent and pure than 40 year old adults. Also, the kids have not gotten to live a life, yet. Most 40 year olds have experienced life with an adult mind. I must say that if given the choice between a complete 8 year old stranger and my own life, I'd logical chose the kid's life: I've lived quite a long time the kid should have a chance to at least live as long as I have. But I'm placing value on experience and knowledge that comes from that which is technically an extension of the ontological argument for the existence of God: to exist is better than not to exist. I'm just adding a time-frame in there: to exist longer is better than not to exist.

Edit - I think most people are thinking the same thing, but just not in those exact words, when they are saying that dead kids are worse than dead adults. yeah, and it doesn't make sense to me.

I don't place value on life based on age, gender, race, intelligence, etc. It's terrible... PERIOD, when people are killed, and to me it comes off as shallow to say it's more tragic when a younger person dies. I especially think it's nonsense because if it were your mother or some random little kid who was about to be gunned down, i seriously doubt you'd want the kid to be spared.

Human life is human life, age shouldn't even be a factor in how you feel about it when it's taken away.


I'm gonna pretend you didn't equate human and animal life.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
It could also very well be that this guy is demon-possessed to the toenails and he did it because Satan (or some other demon) posing as God was speaking to him and telling him to. Who the heck knows right now?

It could also be that God sent him on an actual divine mission. Mysterious ways.

Originally posted by marwash22
yeah, and it doesn't make sense to me.

I don't place value on life based on age, gender, race, intelligence, etc. It's terrible... PERIOD, when people are killed, and to me it comes off as shallow to say it's more tragic when a younger person dies. I especially think it's nonsense because if it were your mother or some random little kid who was about to be gunned down, i seriously doubt you'd want the kid to be spared.

Human life is human life, age shouldn't even be a factor in how you feel about it when it's taken away.


I'm gonna pretend you didn't equate human and animal life. Adding the "personal factor" is not really fair to objectivity.

But if I were in a situation where a 40 year old mother and a 5 year old boy (not her son) were in danger of immediate death and I could only save one, I'd go for the child each and every time. Kid's just started out his life and children are the future, as cliche' as that sounds. This is in no means is lessening that hypothetical woman's life though.

Originally posted by marwash22
I especially think it's nonsense because if it were your mother or some random little kid who was about to be gunned down, i seriously doubt you'd want the kid to be spared.

That's because people place greater value on the life of their close family members than on people who are not related. It's internally consistent.

Most mothers (most parents, actually) would prefer that you save their children rather than them, given a choice. I also find the death of a 91 year old to be less tragic than the death of a newborn, tbh, when discussing natural causes.

I find the murder of anyone tragic regardless of age, tho. I can't really say why.

Originally posted by Robtard
Adding the "personal factor" is not really fair to objectivity. it's fair because age is the issue being discussed. If you think a younger person dying is more tragic, then your relation to the older person shouldn't matter.



Originally posted by Robtard
But if I were in a situation where a 40 year old mother and a 5 year old boy (not her son) were in danger of immediate death and I could only save one, I'd go for the child each and every time. Kid's just started out his life and children are the future, as cliche' as that sounds. This is in no means is lessening that hypothetical woman's life though. i didn't intend this to be about saving or choosing which one lives... it's about how you feel about them dying. Your stance is that you feel worse when a younger person dies... THAT is what I'm saying doesn't make sense.


If you were in that situation where you had to choose and you chose the younger kid, that's fine because it's logical to think the kid hasn't lived his/her life and the older person has... but if you don't feel just as bad about the older person dying as you would have if the younger person died, i think there is something wrong with you.

Originally posted by marwash22
it's fair because age is the issue being discussed. If you think a younger person dying is more tragic, then your relation to the older person shouldn't matter.

i didn't intend this to be about saving or choosing which one lives... it's about how you feel about them dying. Your stance is that you feel worse when a younger person dies... THAT is what I'm saying doesn't make sense.

Because you're adding in the "family" factor; that adds another angle. eg Would you feel just as angry/sad if someone killed your mother or some unknown woman that was your mother's age, size, ethnicity etc, or feel equally the same?

Yes, and the younger that person is, the worse I feel. ie I'd feel bad if I heard a 90 year old man was run over and killed by a drunk driver, but I'd feel even worse if a 9 year old boy was run over and killed by a drunk driver. Your almost stone-wall approach doesn't make sense to me.

The USA should make it mandatory for All us citizens 18 and over to possess a firearm at all times and places, shit like this would get shut down quick

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
The USA should make it mandatory for All us citizens 18 and over to possess a firearm at all times and places, shit like this would get shut down quick Shut up.

LoL, took 4 pages, but lol.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It could also be that God sent him on an actual divine mission. Mysterious ways.

Anyone seen this insane ****?

http://www.towleroad.com/2012/12/fischerschool.html

Originally posted by GCG
Anyone seen this insane ****?

http://www.towleroad.com/2012/12/fischerschool.html

503 Service Unavailable

Originally posted by Mindset
Shut up. whats wrong with you and my posts?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
whats wrong with you and my posts? Nothing is wrong with me, everything is wrong with your post.

Originally posted by Mindset
Nothing is wrong with me, everything is wrong with your post. Nothing is wrong with post, so everything must be wrong with you.

Originally posted by Robtard
Because you're adding in the "family" factor; that adds another angle. eg Would you feel just as angry/sad if someone killed your mother or some unknown woman that was your mother's age, size, ethnicity etc, or feel equally the same?

Yes, and the younger that person is, the worse I feel. ie I'd feel bad if I heard a 90 year old man was run over and killed by a drunk driver, but I'd feel even worse if a 9 year old boy was run over and killed by a drunk driver. Your almost stone-wall approach doesn't make sense to me. okay, so basically, i value all human life equally, and you don't.

you disgust me. sneer

Originally posted by Robtard
503 Service Unavailable

They took that link down, but this is another link.

http://www.inquisitr.com/438879/afas-brian-fischer-says-ct-school-shooting-happened-because-schools-dont-allow-prayer-video/

Originally posted by GCG
They took that link down, but this is another link.

http://www.inquisitr.com/438879/afas-brian-fischer-says-ct-school-shooting-happened-because-schools-dont-allow-prayer-video/

And another assclown using a tragedy to promote their own agenda. Deplorable.

Originally posted by marwash22
okay, so basically, i value all human life equally, and you don't.

you disgust me. sneer

So you're saying all death affects you the same; your father dying is no more painful than some dude in Florida that you've never met.

That's like some seriously deep spiritual shit, dude.

This sort of thing never happens in schools in the ghetto, where all the children are already carrying guns.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
This sort of thing never happens in schools in the ghetto, where all the children are already carrying guns. There aren't any kids in school.

Originally posted by Robtard
So you're saying all death affects you the same; your father dying is no more painful than some dude in Florida that you've never met.

That's like some seriously deep spiritual shit, dude. if they were both murdered, yup.

I would obviously grieve more for my father, but I would feel just as bad about that random dude being killed because my father and that guy are both human.

No you wouldn't.

Originally posted by marwash22
if they were both murdered, yup.

I would obviously grieve more for my father, but I would feel just as bad about that random dude being killed because my father and that guy are both human.

Okay, no one is saying they wouldn't feel bad if 20+ adults had been killed by a gunman. Just that they "grieve" more cos it's children.

Originally posted by Mindset
No you wouldn't. i would feel absolutely nothing if you died.

Lies. You'd feel joy.

mhmm



that is true.

Originally posted by marwash22


I would obviously grieve more for my father Originally posted by marwash22
i would feel absolutely nothing if you died. Make up your mind.

You're my father?



cbeR6uYxU50

Originally posted by marwash22
You're my father?



cbeR6uYxU50 Well, there's a 1 in 30 chance.

Assuming your mother is estimating the right day of your conception.

I just know I got there first.

well she did say my dad was a limp dick closeted homo who needed her to plug his butthole for him to get erect, so yeah, i guess it's you.

hello, dad.

Originally posted by marwash22
well she did say my dad was a limp dick closeted homo who needed her to plug his butthole for him to get erect, so yeah, i guess it's you.

hello, dad. Are you having Gecko write you material?

that's harsh.

I'm sorry, that was too far.

"robham777 says:
This event has shaken me more than anything since 911. I have a daughter in K4, and all I can think about is how scared and helpless she would have been in that situation. I can't even imagine the pain of the parents, who at this point must know that their child is one of the victims. I think the one possible deterrent to this type of attack would be to get faculty volunteers to undergo extensive vetting and training in the use of firearms. Considering the age of the victims, in this situation the perpetrator probably could have inflicted similar damage with a number of weapons, but one well trained faculty member could have stopped him.
reply

shawnbz99 replies:
linkicon reporticon emailicon
I couldn't agree more.

"

Sorry, but I still have to say the better answer is to keep an officer or two in the schools. I suppose the teachers could do it, but one, that's putting a lot of extra firearms within the reach of children and all it takes is one careless action. Two, most teachers or faculty having a bad day might snap on someone; those with a firearm at hand might lose it in a much more violent way. Only in America is one of the most resounding solutions always, "More guns, more guns, more guns."

I didn't see those in Norway clamoring for camp counselors to start carrying weapons after that asshat showed up and killed all of those kids. It was a tragedy, but loading up on weapons is not the answer.

Having an officer or two at the school is, in fact, asking for more guns.

Having officers and guards is also a reactionary measure, not a deterrent. In the time it would take for an officer to physically get to an incident (probably around 10 seconds or so if he sprints), a gunman with a semi-automatic could very easily empty a clip or two into some kids.

A proper preventive measure would be metal detectors at the entrance to the school, and armed security guards manning them imo.

Only problem with that is the huuuuge cost. You might be better off with a team of guards, cost for cost.

No metal allowed in public places.

Have giant magnets at all the doors.

If you have a a surgical implant of some kind, get bent.

http://us.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html?sr=sharebar_facebook

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Having an officer or two at the school is, in fact, asking for more guns.

Having an officer or two at the school is, in fact, asking for more guns but only when they're attached to people who have specific training in how and when to use those guns.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Having officers and guards is also a reactionary measure, not a deterrent.

Cops are only not a deterrent if you lock them in their own special room. You could post them by the door.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Having an officer or two at the school is, in fact, asking for more guns but only when they're attached to people who have specific training in how and when to use those guns. Which is irrelevent, considering his statement about asking for more guns was in reply to a proposal that teachers "receive extensive vetting and training in the use of firearms".



What door? In my elementary school there were 6 entrances to the school, and about 40 classrooms. I wouldn't feel deterred if I saw a police officer on the other side of the school from where I am. If I'm on a suicidal charge with my only objective being to shoot as many kids as possible before I kill myself, knowing that I'll only be able to shoot five instead of ten because a cop will reach me eventually isn't a deterrent. The trick is to prevent the individual from getting into the school with a gun in the first place.

My idea is far more realistic and effective.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
The USA should make it mandatory for All us citizens 18 and over to possess a firearm at all times and places, shit like this would get shut down quick

facepalmfacepalmfacepalmfacepalmfacepalmfacepalmfa
cepalmfacepalmfacepalmfacepalm

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
My idea is far more realistic and effective. You have absolutely no care or consideration for individual rights and personal freedom, do you?

How the hell did you come up with that ?

Forcing people to carry guns is infringing on their freedoms.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
It could also very well be that this guy is demon-possessed to the toenails and he did it because Satan (or some other demon) posing as God was speaking to him and telling him to. Who the heck knows right now?

In the occult, the highest sacrifice one can make is a child. I'm not saying he was an occultist, but you don't have to be an occultist to be possessed. And nothing makes Satan happier than defiling innocence.

It's all gravy, man. I don't think you're dumb/lame for saying something like that. I hold that, in the end, the individual is responsible for the actions...demon or no demon.

Originally posted by Digi
Of course it does. It's a good point. And my "equation" wasn't perfect to begin with. It was essentially just a series of variable, for which we don't have exact values.

But it doesn't change the central debate. The point was: the instinctual tendency to believe that putting a gun in the teachers' hands is a good thing, is flawed. Or at least, it's only looking at the side that supports doing it without considering everything else. You're clever enough to realize this, but the way you presented the argument is the way MANY people present the argument, and it's not a fair assessment of the issue.

I don't really have a stance on gun control, much as this may seem that I'm advocating for more of it. I just dislike talking points that aren't comprehensive enough to be balanced.


Well, my question was genuine: I wanted to see if that technology would change how you put together that equation you were making. If it did, then I wanted you to entertain the scales: did it tip it in favor of giving guns to teachers? If it didn't, then I wanted your reasons.

I am still not certain putting a gun in a teacher's hand is bad nor am I certain it is good. Wasn't there a town that required everyone carry a gun? Did that result in more accidental deaths (I genuinely do not know and I can't be arsed to look it up, either).

Don't get the wrong idea: I just got done writing a massive Persuasion-Argumentation presentation for the end of the semester...it was over gun control. I was convinced that assault weapons were unnecessary for the average civilian and I argued that point. I am for gun control but not the elimination of guns. As for putting more guns in more people's hands: I generally do not think that is a good idea. I think getting a gun should require a decent level of proficiency and knowledge: both a shooting test and a written test. I see no reason to put AK's in people's hands, though.

Originally posted by marwash22
yeah, and it doesn't make sense to me.

That's okay: I don't expect it to nor do I require you to agree with me (but it would be nice )

Originally posted by marwash22
I don't place value on life based on age, gender, race, intelligence, etc.

Nor do I...except in the case of strangers (no matter who they are) I would prefer the loss of an adult's life over a child's.


Originally posted by marwash22
It's terrible... PERIOD, when people are killed, and to me it comes off as shallow to say it's more tragic when a younger person dies.

Well, the opposite is true: my reason for placing the value is uses an ontological argument and then modifies further to make the point: hardly "shallow".

Maybe you'll change your mind when you have children of your own: you'll see how innocent children really are (up to an extent).


Originally posted by marwash22
I especially think it's nonsense because if it were your mother or some random little kid who was about to be gunned down, i seriously doubt you'd want the kid to be spared.

Wrong: my mother and I have had this discussion before (shortly after 9/11, to be exact). The life of a stranger's kid is more important to my mother than her own life. My brother disagrees, of course: he doesn't "care about some stranger's brat". People are different.

If my mother gave up her life to save a random stranger's child, of course I would be sad...but it wouldn't be as bad if she just died of natural causes.

Originally posted by marwash22
Human life is human life, age shouldn't even be a factor in how you feel about it when it's taken away.

Yeah...that just doesn't work for me. Like I said, a random 5 year old's life is more important to me than my own life if given that circumstance or choice.

Originally posted by marwash22
I'm gonna pretend you didn't equate human and animal life.

Newsflash: humans are animals, too.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It could also be that God sent him on an actual divine mission. Mysterious ways.

That could be true...but it would be difficult to justify that action from an omnibenevolent God. Maybe the dude killed a future American version of Hitler? The Watchmen, man....THE WATCHMEN ENDING!

Originally posted by marwash22
okay, so basically, i value all human life equally, and you don't.

you disgust me. sneer

No you don't...you made it quite clear you value your family's life more than strangers.



Originally posted by Robtard
So you're saying all death affects you the same; your father dying is no more painful than some dude in Florida that you've never met.

That's like some seriously deep spiritual shit, dude.


He's Neo: he's The One.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
This sort of thing never happens in schools in the ghetto, where all the children are already carrying guns.

That's why Symmetric Chaos's school had armed security.


Originally posted by Tzeentch._
http://us.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html?sr=sharebar_facebook


Much happier ending to a horrible crap incident than this shooting, of course. Some of those kids...have to be mentally scarred for life in addition to the real scars.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
How the hell did you come up with that ? You want the government to force people to carry weapons. Despite being unbelievably foolish and unrealistic, it's a gross infringement on people's rights.

Well, he is a commie.

Now an american one.

It all makes sense.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
My idea is far more realistic and effective.

Because nothing protects children better than four stupid retarded dipshits in a firefight.

Seriously, has your reasoning always been like this or did you have a TBI at some point? White matter injuries make people more violent and more ready to seek out violent solutions to problems you know.

I;m pretty sure Collosus is black.

Grey matter is the stuff you really don't want to injure. White matter is the stuff you really, really, really, really, really don't want to injure

What a tragedy. 20 kids, dead. I'm speechless.

Originally posted by Astner
even though the population is relatively small.

Relative to which countries? India and China?

The only way to prevent avenger violence (which this WAS), is to treat mental health and mental checkups the same way we do physical health and to make sure that individuals like this kid or the Virginia Tech kid or James Holmes have permanent mental health checkups since they start shooting people primarily when they lose coverage after switching schools or aging out of coverage. In other words, universal screening and universal healthcare. Everyone should also expect a smaller scale shooting within a week or two since avengers provoke each other on a smaller scale statistically. One successful shooting will give a second avenger enough confidence to attempt the same thing in his own life.

My condolences to the victims and their families.

My initial reaction after getting over the shock was that if this doesn't change things then nothing will.

I'd like to think that this would create some movement in the gun laws but I'm afraid that the usual defensiveness by the pro-gun community would arise and court/legislation proceedings would drag on for years accomplishing nothing. Quite Infuriating.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
I;m pretty sure Collosus is black.

lol...you had no idea what he was talking about which makes it even funnier. Either that or I "didn't see what you did there."

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Relative to which countries? India and China?

He meant population density. Despite how his posts read, he does not quite have a grasp on English in all circumstances. The higher the population density, the more violent crime there is (not necessarily per capita...I don't think). "...both property and violent crimes were moderately correlated with population density..." http://www.sascv.org/ijcjs/harries.html



Originally posted by Darth Jello
The only way to prevent avenger violence (which this WAS), is to treat mental health and mental checkups the same way we do physical health and to make sure that individuals like this kid or the Virginia Tech kid or James Holmes have permanent mental health checkups since they start shooting people primarily when they lose coverage after switching schools or aging out of coverage. In other words, universal screening and universal healthcare. Everyone should also expect a smaller scale shooting within a week or two since avengers provoke each other on a smaller scale statistically. One successful shooting will give a second avenger enough confidence to attempt the same thing in his own life.


1. Revenge Violence, not avenger violence...well...if what was said earlier in this thread was supposed to correct: he was trying to get back at the system.

2. Your idea is fascist, for sure. However, mandatory mental and physical checkups is not a bad idea. We just do not have the nurses and doctors capable of supporting such a requirement. It would be nice...so many premature deaths could be prevented that way (both for medical as well as criminal related deaths...maybe even suicides, too).

3. I like the idea of universal healthcare. A minimum amount of healthcare for all that goes beyond just preventative healthcare (meaning, beyond annual checkups).

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
I;m pretty sure Collosus is black. He's from Russia, so I doubt it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
facepalmfacepalmfacepalmfacepalmfacepalmfacepalmfa
cepalmfacepalmfacepalmfacepalm

There just isn't enough facepalms in the world sometimes, is there?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=PezlFNTGWv4

It was right then and it's still right now.

But it's only part of the problem. I still maintain it's symptomatic of how little the US does to tackle mental illness. It will no doubt come out in time, if it hasn't already, that this boy was deeply troubled and severely mentally ill. There were 16 mass shootings in the US between 1999 and 2009. There's been 16 this year alone and over 25 since 2009. Any coincidence that spending on mental health care has dropped $5,000,000,000 in the last 3 years?

Originally posted by dadudemon
lol...you had no idea what he was talking about which makes it even funnier. Either that or I "didn't see what you did there."



He meant population density. Despite how his posts read, he does not quite have a grasp on English in all circumstances. The higher the population density, the more violent crime there is (not necessarily per capita...I don't think). "...both property and violent crimes were moderately correlated with population density..." http://www.sascv.org/ijcjs/harries.html






1. Revenge Violence, not avenger violence...well...if what was said earlier in this thread was supposed to correct: he was trying to get back at the system.

2. Your idea is fascist, for sure. However, mandatory mental and physical checkups is not a bad idea. We just do not have the nurses and doctors capable of supporting such a requirement. It would be nice...so many premature deaths could be prevented that way (both for medical as well as criminal related deaths...maybe even suicides, too).

3. I like the idea of universal healthcare. A minimum amount of healthcare for all that goes beyond just preventative healthcare (meaning, beyond annual checkups).


Universal healthcare is NOT FASCIST. Universal access to mental health services is NOT FASCIST. Nor is mandating that people with diagnosed violent disorders seek treatment as a public health concern or making mental health part of a physical exam.

It's called AVENGER VIOLENCE. It is a cataloged phenomenon that often rears it's head when an ill person with violent tendencies is either not diagnosed and goes off or goes off after losing coverage.

The aftershock is already happening in the form of a shooting at an Alabama hospital and the arrest of an 18 year old planning a school shooting in Oklahoma.

Originally posted by jaden101
There just isn't enough facepalms in the world sometimes, is there?

Originally posted by jaden101
There just isn't enough facepalms in the world sometimes, is there? Are, aren't.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Universal healthcare is NOT FASCIST. Universal access to mental health services is NOT FASCIST. Nor is mandating that people with diagnosed violent disorders seek treatment as a public health concern or making mental health part of a physical exam.


You do know that that is irrelevent to the point I made, right?

Let me requote for you, with emphasis added, so you can see where you went wrong:

"Your idea is fascist, for sure. However, mandatory mental and physical checkups is not a bad idea."

Originally posted by Darth Jello
It's called AVENGER VIOLENCE. It is a cataloged phenomenon that often rears it's head when an ill person with violent tendencies is either not diagnosed and goes off or goes off after losing coverage.

We do not know enough about the scenario...but...it looks like revenge violence, not Avenger Violence. He was getting revenge, literally...not the thing you're talking about.

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Are, aren't. Sentence fragment.

Sentence faction.

I wish there was less TV coverage. This tears my heart out.

Stop watching TV?

Who the hell watches TV anyway?

Losers, thats who.

Best to get your news from teh interw3bs so you can ignore the fifteen minute pieces that are supposed to "help us understand" the shooter. Eff that, I don't give two craps about his name. Whatever will help to prevent this in the future I'm all about, but his name doesn't need to live on.

Originally posted by Mindship
I wish there was less TV coverage. This tears my heart out. Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Stop watching TV?

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Are, aren't.

Didn't he play for Chelsea in the 90's?

Surprised there hasn't been one "Obama planned this so he can take away our guns!" comment yet on the internets.

believe it or not I have already seen people say it on facebook

I wonder how this went over in, say, Iran, or if there are Taliban dancing in the streets somewhere.

Originally posted by Mindship
I wonder how this went over in, say, Iran, or if there are Taliban dancing in the streets somewhere.

There are Westboro Baptist dancing in the streets here. Apparently they plan on picketing the funerals of the slain children, since the shooting happened cos of God's wrath cos the US allows gays to do things like marry, walk around the streets and even breathe.

Originally posted by Robtard
There are Westboro Baptist dancing in the streets here. Apparently they plan on picketing the funerals of the slain children, since the shooting happened cos of God's wrath cos the US allows gays to do things like marry, walk around the streets and even breathe.

I honestly thought this was sarcasm for a moment.

I'm pleased to see Westboro still defies such conventions as "moral limits".

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I honestly thought this was sarcasm for a moment.

I'm pleased to see Westboro still defies such conventions as "moral limits".

Sadly, the "gay" reason is true, as that's what they say causes all misfortunes and the planned picketing is apparently true.

Trolls will do anything for attention.

Originally posted by Robtard
There are Westboro Baptist dancing in the streets here. Apparently they plan on picketing the funerals of the slain children... I'm almost tempted to say, where's a crazed gunman when ya need one.

Originally posted by Mindship
I'm almost tempted to say, where's a crazed gunman when ya need one.

LoL, yeah.

Anonymous has gone ape shit on them in the last 24 hours. Bringing down their website, hacking their twitter account and releasing the names, addresses and phone numbers of all the church's members.

Trolls trolling trolls. Love it.

Originally posted by Mindship
I wonder how this went over in, say, Iran, or if there are Taliban dancing in the streets somewhere.
I think the (official) Iranian reaction would be one of condolences mixed with "see, their society is corrupt, and the children are paying for it" messages.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think the (official) Iranian reaction would be one of condolences mixed with "see, their society is corrupt, and the children are paying for it" messages. That sounds about right.

Originally posted by BackFire
Anonymous has gone ape shit on them in the last 24 hours. Bringing down their website, hacking their twitter account and releasing the names, addresses and phone numbers of all the church's members.

Glad to hear it!

Originally posted by BackFire
Anonymous has gone ape shit on them in the last 24 hours. Bringing down their website, hacking their twitter account and releasing the names, addresses and phone numbers of all the church's members.

Not very difficult to do...the WBBC aren't exactly geniuses much less security geniuses. I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.

Now that you mention it, I think maybe they have hacked their website before. Not sure. The biggest blow though is the releasing of all the member's personal information.

Originally posted by BackFire
The biggest blow though is the releasing of all the member's personal information.

Honestly, I did not know that that was "underwraps" information. They make such public displays of themselves but I guess that is only a select few. I suppose there are private people that support their cause but don't want the public ridicule the comes with associating themselves with such a pernicious and mean-spirited group.

Yes, I went through the list and was blown away by the amount of people that belong to the church. I always thought it was somewhere around 10 or so, but it seemed closer to 50.