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What duo (Jedi, Sith, or combination) can take on DE Sidious and Lord Vitiate in a all out battle?

Originally posted by Kotor3
What duo (Jedi, Sith, or combination) can take on DE Sidious and Lord Vitiate in a all out battle?

Luke Skywalker (FOTJ), Yoda (ROTS), Mace Windu (ROTS), Revan (Post Revan: TOR series), Satele Shan (TOR MMO) and the Starkiller Clone (TFU II).

Son and Abeloth could take out the duo as well.

And finally, Father and Daughter could take them out.

Son could solo if he was in possession of the Dark Staff (because he could overpower it's will and wield it to a more devastating extent than all these lists put together).

I believe Darth Nihilus and Son, or Abeloth and Darth Nihilus might could pull off a win as well.

I agree that any of the people listed could put up a fight aside from Satale. She's way out of her weight-class here.

Not familiar enough with Satele, but Revan is definitely the weakest link here. Marek or Yoda would make mincemeat of Vitiate. If we go strictly by highest showings and not PIS/nerf-age, then Luke could beat them. Mind control won't work and Luke's combat feats outstrip either of them. Perhaps not together, but definitely one-on-one.

Just how good is Revan? I never ended up reading Drew's book, although I know the Emperor overpowers him. And did something ever happen with him after that Sith mission in TOR game, where he disappears in a flash of light?

Originally posted by -kV-
And did something ever happen with him after that Sith mission in TOR game, where he disappears in a flash of light?

We'll have to see what the Brain-Boxes come up with.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not familiar enough with Satele, but Revan is definitely the weakest link here.

That... doesn't really make sense.

I'm not familiar with Satele to know where she ranks, but of the others Revan is the weakest.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not familiar enough with Satele, but Revan is definitely the weakest link here. Marek or Yoda would make mincemeat of Vitiate. If we go strictly by highest showings and not PIS/nerf-age, then Luke could beat them. Mind control won't work and Luke's combat feats outstrip either of them. Perhaps not together, but definitely one-on-one.

As far as combat Vitiate could pwn any of those Jedi 1 on 1 without using his lightsaber, and thoroughly I might add. Think Abeloth in her avatar bodies times a billion in Force powers. Although Abeloth wasn't very talented compared to Vitiate, though she did pull off incredible feats of destruction beyond Vitiate's immediate ability: leveling a city, and generating a much more massive blast comparable to an atom bomb using the technique known as Dark Side Energy Containment.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not familiar enough with Satele, but Revan is definitely the weakest link here. Marek or Yoda would make mincemeat of Vitiate. If we go strictly by highest showings and not PIS/nerf-age, then Luke could beat them. Mind control won't work and Luke's combat feats outstrip either of them. Perhaps not together, but definitely one-on-one.
You do not understand how Vitiate works. Marek and Yoda will be broke even before they touch Vitiate. Reason is that none of them have experience with the kind of mental/telepathic powers that Vitiate possesses. These powers are his surprise weapon; specially for the new potential opponents.

Even in terms of power in the Force; Vitiate can (logically) handle either; singlehandedly at minimum. Reason is that some dark side prodigies already serve Vitiate; and this is an indication of his incredible power.

The greatest mistake that you make in your assessment is that you only look at feats without trying to comprehend that how a character has been promoted within the Star Wars environment.

This is your mindset:

Yoda lifted an X-Wing; he is bad@ss. Fact is that some dark side prodigies serving Vitiate could do the same as well. So just because we did not see Vitiate performing this feat; doesn't means he cant or is weaker then Yoda or something. Only thing is that Vitiate's story isn't so much explored in terms of telekinetic feats. Same is true for Revan.

Also, how is Revan the weakest link here? The best opponent that Marek beat is Vader, correct? Revan have arguably done better.

Originally posted by -kV-
Just how good is Revan? I never ended up reading Drew's book, although I know the Emperor overpowers him. And did something ever happen with him after that Sith mission in TOR game, where he disappears in a flash of light?
Long time; bro.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan:

Meetra's assessment of Revan:

It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met.

Keep in mind that Meetra have contended with Sith Triumvirate. Still need any explanation?

About Darth Sion;

This left him in eternal pain, his broken body held together only by his hatred and power of the dark side. Sion was exceedingly difficult to kill, because his mastery over his own body granted him supernatural vitality. (Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia)

&

Kriea confronted Darth Sion in order to ensure that Exile would be able to escape. She barely survived the encounter, in which she lost the use of one hand. (Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia)

About Darth Traya;

After the Jedi Exile traveled to Onderon and defeated General Vaklu, Kriea realized her "pupil" was growing in strength and would become a threat to her truimverate of power. She tried to kill her on Dantoonie but fled. After the deaths of Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion, Darth Traya was the only surviving member of her Order, and she lost her life in her final showdown with the Jedi Exile. (Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia)

Keep in mind that Darth Traya WTFpwned those 3 Jedi Masters who attempted to punish Meetra Surik after the Jedi Civil War.

Lord Scourge, was an expert swordsman, and matched Meetra Surik in strength. This was apparent from his accomplishments as he had killed hundreds of Force-wielders during his life-time. He could cipher energies from (organic) opponents to fuel his own power during his duels.

Both Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik, depite being FAR ABOVE AVERAGE, stood no chance against an extraordinarily powerful Force-wielder; Darth Nyriss (who was plotting to overthrow the Sith Emperor). And when Darth Nryiss engaged Revan in combat; she was destroyed. This shows how powerful Revan was (Champion of the Jedi Order); able to blitz through entire armies; being able to draw power from both the light and dark sides of the Force simultaneously; handling heavy objects like fodder; and vice versa.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not familiar with Satele to know where she ranks, but of the others Revan is the weakest.
We had a debate on this not long ago;

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t572462.html

You have short memory, it seems.

More explanation:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
To understand the power of Revan and Satete, it is important to focus on their combat history and how good their opponents were.

Darth Malgus: (One of the greatest opponents of Satele Shan)

http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/return

This duel ended with Malgus emerging victorious. The Jedi Master he cut down was extraordinarily talented in lightsaber dueling arts and his command of the Force was also impressive (as you can see in this footage). Malgus's Master was no match for Darach in the Force despite packing strong defensive abilities (He easily tolerated a direct missile hit and absorbed its blast as an example). Later on, Darach hurled a Starship Engine towards Malgus like a missile. And even this formidable attack didn't stop Malgus; such was his strength. So if Malgus could bring down such a powerful Jedi Master in his junior days; think about it that how strong he would have been during his battle in Aldeeran.

http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/hope-cinematic-trailer

You see what kind of feats Satele performed as a Jedi Knight in this duel?

Malgus afterwards faced two more Jedi on the same planet but at a different place. This battle has been explored in a source called The Third Lesson.

During this battle, a Jedi Master collapsed two buildings on the position of Malgus. The Sith Lord was trapped within a mountain of rubble with a chunk of it landing on top of him. However, Malgus prevented tons of rubble from crushing him. He then blew that heavy rubble apart and climbed out of the mountain of rubble to fight the Jedi. The duel was very intense. During the fight, Malgus sensed presence of another Jedi nearby even though this Jedi has masked his connection with the Force (But Malgus's telepathic abilities were amazing); he send the Jedi Master packing with a Force-augmented kick; used the Force to pull the hidden Jedi out from his place of hiding; and crushed his windpipe. The Jedi Master once again attempted to subdue Malgus but the latter Sith unleashed such a powerful blast of Force Lightning that couldn't be repelled by even two lightsabers and this burst of Force Lightning mortally wounded the Jedi Master who died from his injuries afterwards. This entire performance after Malgus was mortally wounded from his battle with Satele Shan; very impressive.

So now try to comprehend that how powerful Satele Shan would have become when she became the Grand Jedi Master. She could also perform shatterpoints like Mace and Luke, blow droids from inside-out like Luke, and even survive in space by using the Force (unlike anyone; if memory serves me correctly).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Long time; bro.

Yeah man, it's good to see you again. Dare I say I'll be somewhat active during my upcoming Winter Break, but once uni starts, the hiatus may resume again. Hopefully not!

But d@mn, sounds like Revan is still as powerful as ever. Out of curiosity, where would you rank him? I remember I once had him at 5 or 6 among the best Jedi ever.

Originally posted by Dolos
As far as combat Vitiate could pwn any of those Jedi 1 on 1 without using his lightsaber, and thoroughly I might add. Think Abeloth in her avatar bodies times a billion in Force powers. Although Abeloth wasn't very talented compared to Vitiate, though she did pull off incredible feats of destruction beyond Vitiate's immediate ability: leveling a city, and generating a much more massive blast comparable to an atom bomb using the technique known as Dark Side Energy Containment.

Originally posted by The_Tempest



Why are you laughing? You don't believe he can? Well let me remind you that he did overpower Revan.

Revan has redirected very powerful lightning one time, and can move heavy objects with the force. He has precognition and can react instantaneously (this proves he is at least as fast as Sidious; hell, probably even faster). His dueling feats include defeating Malak, defeating Mandalore, defeating some of Vitiates guards etc... Oh yeah, and he has fought through giant droids. Obviously he's up there with the likes of Yoda and Luke. It's not like any of their feats surpass Revan's by miles.

So if Vitiate can overpower Revan, he can do the same to Yoda and Luke.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Why are you laughing? You don't believe he can? Well let me remind you that he did overpower Revan.

Revan has redirected very powerful lightning one time, and can move heavy objects with the force. He has precognition and can react instantaneously (this proves he is at least as fast as Sidious; hell, probably even faster). His dueling feats include defeating Malak, defeating Mandalore, defeating some of Vitiates guards etc... Oh yeah, and he has fought through giant droids. Obviously he's up there with the likes of Yoda and Luke. It's not like any of their feats surpass Revan's by miles.

So if Vitiate can overpower Revan, he can do the same to Yoda and Luke.

Your horrible attempts at sarcasm and Sidious fanboyism notwithstanding, it's unclear as to who, if anybody, can withstand the mental powers of Vitiate. If there was anybody, my money would be on Luke. Yoda? A big fat LOL to that one.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Your horrible attempts at sarcasm and Sidious fanboyism notwithstanding, it's unclear as to who, if anybody, can withstand the mental powers of Vitiate. If there was anybody, my money would be on Luke. Yoda? A big fat LOL to that one.


Awww look, the sorry ass TOR era worshiper still upset because Vitiate and Revan didn't live up to his expectations.

Revan was able to resist Vitiate's mind control long enough to put him on his ass, so it's not something that Vitiate can do instantly. Yoda was able to fight at equal speed to a sith lord who can blitz other incredibly fast force users before they could react. Give me proof that Vitiate can penetrate Yoda's mind before Yoda can slaughter him. If Yoda does allow Vitiate to attack first, all Yoda has to do is sense Vitiate trying to enter his mind, break Vitiate's concentration with a force push, and then blitz him. Why couldn't he? Please give me a reasonable argument, and not another baseless fanboy assumption.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Why are you laughing? You don't believe he can? Well let me remind you that he did overpower Revan.

Revan has redirected very powerful lightning one time, and can move heavy objects with the force. He has precognition and can react instantaneously (this proves he is at least as fast as Sidious; hell, probably even faster). His dueling feats include defeating Malak, defeating Mandalore, defeating some of Vitiates guards etc... Oh yeah, and he has fought through giant droids. Obviously he's up there with the likes of Yoda and Luke. It's not like any of their feats surpass Revan's by miles.

So if Vitiate can overpower Revan, he can do the same to Yoda and Luke.
Silly argumentation.

Gallen's feats surpass that of Vader by miles. And yet Vader was not an easy prey for him.

----------

About Revan's part: He was fully prepared in his second encounter. He reacted to Vitiate's mental brush on the spot and he did so in unorthodox fashion; he had to step out from the normalcy of using the Force to prevent Vitiate from breaking him this time.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Awww look, the sorry ass TOR era worshiper still upset because Vitiate and Revan didn't live up to his expectations.

Revan was able to resist Vitiate's mind control long enough to put him on his ass, so it's not something that Vitiate can do instantly. Yoda was able to fight at equal speed to a sith lord who can blitz other incredibly fast force users before they could react. Give me proof that Vitiate can penetrate Yoda's mind before Yoda can slaughter him. If Yoda does allow Vitiate to attack first, all Yoda has to do is sense Vitiate trying to enter his mind, break Vitiate's concentration with a force push, and then blitz him. Why couldn't he? Please give me a reasonable argument, and not another baseless fanboy assumption.
I don't get this "long enough" part. Revan reacted instantly to the threat. And he had to use unorthodox means to save himself. If their would have been ample time as you claim, Revan would have gotten the opportunity to land a Force push or something but he didn't. In fact, no one else did either. This is why so many individuals fell in to trap of Vitiate; his mental/telepathic powers were so quick and effective.

You have excuses and nothing else. Looking for spots to give advantage to your favourite characters without proper grasp of canonical events.

Sorry folks, this isn't how things work. Unless Yoda is too close to Vitiate, he wouldn't get the time to land a blow to defend himself from telepathic domination.

Just a minor mental brush from Vitiate nearly broke Scourge who was also a powerful individual. And Vitiate was being soft with him.

When Revan felt the brush, he reacted on the spot with unorthodox means to save himself. He knew that he didn't had much time to think about his options. Revan was mentally prepared beforehand during this second encounter. The situation of Revan is entirely different then that of a first-timer in this encounter.

In fact, the whole duel didn't last long in terms of span of time, as per descriptions in the novel.

That just proves that Vader is very powerful, not that Marek isn't as strong as claimed.

Vader has the feat of making Marek struggle for a victory.

Random question: Is TFU2 considered canon?

Originally posted by NemeBro
That just proves that Vader is very powerful, not that Marek isn't as strong as claimed.

Vader has the feat of making Marek struggle for a victory.
It also proves that 'incredible feats' do not necessarily translate to domination in duels against other powerful individuals. Unfortunately, members (SIDIOUS 66) and (The_Tempest) think only in terms of feats.

Vader has a feat, as I illustrated.

As far as I know, Vitiate nor Revan have ever fought Vader, Marek, nor anyone they have fought.

So feats matter a lot.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't get this "long enough" part. Revan reacted instantly to the threat. And he had to use unorthodox means to save himself. If their would have been ample time as you claim, Revan would have gotten the opportunity to land a Force push or something but he didn't. In fact, no one else did either. This is why so many individuals fell in to trap of Vitiate; his mental/telepathic powers were so quick and effective.

You have excuses and nothing else. Looking for spots to give advantage to your favourite characters without proper grasp of canonical events.

Sorry folks, this isn't how things work. Unless Yoda is too close to Vitiate, he wouldn't get the time to land a blow to defend himself from telepathic domination.

Just a minor mental brush from Vitiate nearly broke Scourge who was also a powerful individual. And Vitiate was being soft with him.

When Revan felt the brush, he reacted on the spot with unorthodox means to save himself. He knew that he didn't had much time to think about his options. Revan was mentally prepared beforehand during this second encounter. The situation of Revan is entirely different then that of a first-timer in this encounter.

In fact, the whole duel didn't last long in terms of span of time, as per descriptions in the novel.


"The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn't even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready."

^Like I said, Vitiate's mind control is not instantaneously. Revan was able to sense it and he was fast enough to respond to it, so why wouldn't one of the fastest force users in the history of SW be able to do the same? You're assuming that Yoda will ignore this "dark presence" entering his mind, which may be true, but I'm not sure how you are in any position to know this.

Also, the only unorthodoxed method used by Revan was the way he attacked Vitiate with the force.





Yes.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Awww look, the sorry ass TOR era worshiper PT era/Sidious worshiper still upset because his favorite characters didn't live up to his expectations.


Your dumbass forgot to mention that Revan did this by channeling the dark and light sides into a perfect equilibrium, which we haven't seen from any other character. Moving on.
Yoda was able to fight at equal speed to a sith lord who can blitz other incredibly fast force users before they could react
LOL. Wonderful, incredibly fast force users. That's NOT a general statement that doesn't really say anything about him fighting someone top tier.

Give me proof Yoda can slaughter Vitiate before Vitiate mind ****s him. See what I did thurr?


I'll take "random made up bullshit from Yoda's psychologist" for $50, Alex. Let me try. All Vitiate has to do is mind **** Yoda, watch Yoda try to fight back mentally, and push harder. See? Awesome!.Why couldn't he?

Both the irony and hypocrisy of this statement ends an already pitiful argument on your part.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Your dumbass forgot to mention that Revan did this by channeling the dark and light sides into a perfect equilibrium, which we haven't seen from any other character. Moving on.


Show me where Revan needed to channel both sides of the force in order to sense Vitiate's mental intrusion and to be able to react to it.


Originally posted by jadams3928
Give me proof Yoda can slaughter Vitiate before Vitiate mind ****s him. See what I did thurr?


I did. He fought at equal speeds to a sith lord who can blitz jedi masters before they could react. Now give me a speed feat from Vitiate that suggests he can react faster than those jedi masters.

Also, the speed feats from those jedi masters have been posted. I'm pretty sure your dumbass as seen them already. Now how about you do your part and provide a decent argument backed up with feats.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Both the irony and hypocrisy of this statement ends an already pitiful argument on your part.


Damn, I'm better off debating this with LeGenD, lmao.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Show me where Revan needed to channel both sides of the force in order to sense Vitiate's mental intrusion and to be able to react to it.
It's in the book. Revan creates a technique for Vitiate's mental powers, and channels the equilibrium when he is in the throne room.






He fought a sith lord who blitzed the B team? Wonderful argument. When 8,000 sith lords came to Nathema, they immediately fell under the sway of Vitiate. When Revan and Malak met Vitiate for the first time, they immediately fell under his sway. This is becoming too easy.


Seeing as I have, and your responses include either "nuh uh" or "find the info yourself", you probably should stop right about now.




You're right, that way you would be getting your ass kicked by one person instead of two. LOL

facepalm

Did you just suggest S66 is worse than SWL? I'm trying to think of a more potentially offensive statement... and I'm drawing blank.

That's just cold, bro.

But he is right: there hasn't been any evidence to suggest Vitiate is fast enough to contend with Yoda, who is prodigiously fast even among Force adepts (Shadow Hunter).

starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Lokess

I would appreciate the exact entry from the Encyclopedia, if you have it. Wookieepedia is all well and good as a general reference guide, but it's not something to dictate these threads.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I would appreciate the exact entry from the Encyclopedia, if you have it. Wookieepedia is all well and good as a general reference guide, but it's not something to dictate these threads.

I posted the wiki because my encyclopedia is at home, i'll post the exact quote when I get back but as I recall, it's 100% accurate on wiki. The entire dark council member died in a flash of instantaneous light.

Originally posted by jadams3928
I posted the wiki because my encyclopedia is at home, i'll post the exact quote when I get back but as I recall, it's 100% accurate on wiki.

Thanks, it's appreciated. The Encyclopedia is a great read, but it's just too expensive for me to purchase, particularly with my limited interest in the era.

Originally posted by jadams3928
The entire dark council member died in a flash of instantaneous light.

But if that's all the Encyclopedia has to say, that's still not a decisive instance. It has been pretty exhaustively and successfully argued that Vitiate overwhelmingly relies on preparation and rituals for his most powerful attacks.

If the Dark Council died in this instance through Vitiate's powers, how are we to know such abilities are available to him at whim? Consider his struggles to bring down Revan, among others.

No it doesn't. It was stated that the 8,000 sith lords were dominated mentally as soon as they stepped on Nathema. The same was said when Revan and Malak first met him. Sometimes he needs preparation, sometimes he doesn't. And I'm not saying the first Dark Council purge was a mental attack, I'm saying he has instantaneous attacks at his disposal. Again, the Dark Council was purged in a flash of light.


Revan prepared for Vitiate's attack with whatever technique he invented. You also don't see Vitiate getting serious about the fight until Revan knocks him down. Then he unleashes a force storm that Revan can't stop.

Not exactly.
I'm familiar with three sources regarding the ritual conducted on Nathema: Darth Nyriss, The Old Republic Encyclopedia, and the in-game datacron entitled "The Ritual of Nathema." None of them claim that the Sith Lords were enthralled the moment their boots touched the world's soil:







All three sources share two traits: one, they are all in-universe texts and two, they conflict with one another. Nyriss claims the Sith Lords were compelled to participate whereas the other two suggest it was an act of voluntary cooperation.

The closest support for your claim is Nyriss's account, but "quickly" and "instantaneously" are not equitable.



The Encyclopedia says the domination took "mere moments," yes, but Revan explains to Scourge and Surik that the entire affair was an elaborate trap by the Emperor:







I know you're not.



But we don't know if the attack was the product of a Sith weapon, ritual, or other phenomenon that required channeled energies. When relegated to his standard abilities, Vitiate never displays this sort of potency or anything close to it.



Per the text, Vitiate channels his power to unleash a telekinetic blast as Revan charges him. When Scourge and Surik enter the fray, Vitiate visibly hesitates and only attacks when the former betrays and murders the latter. When we combine the undeniably persistent trend of Vitiate relying on channeling, foresight, nexuses, preparation, rituals, and traps with the fact that we never see this sort of power used in combat at whim, I don't see why we should assume he'd be capable of unleashing it here.

It also said it took a fraction of the emperor's powers to do it. Nothing suggests he was conducting a ritual or anything of the sort, only that he was ready and waiting for them.


The Second Dark Council Purge. All members enter his throne room, none leave alive.



Vitiate didn't rely on anything when he unleashed his force storm. Vitiate didn't rely on anything when Tol Braga and his Jedi came to his space station. Nor when he unleashed his force storm on them.

Originally posted by jadams3928
It also said it took a fraction of the emperor's powers to do it.

I'm aware. But, courtesy of Revan, we understand that that's not true: a substantial degree of his strength and concentration, per the text, was marshaled to to the effort of subjugating Revan in their second encounter.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Nothing suggests he was conducting a ritual or anything of the sort, only that he was ready and waiting for them.

Prior knowledge of an impending attack affords one an undeniable advantage when that attack occurs. The Emperor could very well have gathered his energies and simply waited for Yarri to bring Malak and Revan through the front door, which is a reasonable assumption given what we know of him.

Originally posted by jadams3928
The Second Dark Council Purge. All members enter his throne room, none leave alive.

And as he was the one who summoned them there, that is another tremendous advantage: he knew that they'd be coming and when they'd be coming. Not to mention that details of the encounter elude us, unless the Encyclopedia mentioned something I forgot.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Vitiate didn't rely on anything when he unleashed his force storm.

The text notes he stopped to gather his power for the storm.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Vitiate didn't rely on anything when Tol Braga and his Jedi came to his space station. Nor when he unleashed his force storm on them.

How do you know? When I say "ritual," I am not necessarily meaning an elaborate affair with candles and incantations. I simply mean that he might have taken the time, as he observed the confrontation between Braga's men and Scourge, to gather his energies in preparation of a fight.

His consistent use of such preparation makes such an assumption absolutely reasonable.

He summoned them but it's unlikely he knew when they'd be coming, just that they'd be coming.



You'll have to refresh my memory.


This is also not something I remember. The only thing I remember about their fight was that when Vitiate got knocked on his ass, he had a snarl on his face and went apeshit, then unleashed a force storm. He wasn't taking Revan seriously until that point.



Even if that IS the case, which is debatable, he took every one of those masters down.

It's not reasonable to assume that Yoda would overwhelm Vitiate with his speed, especially when Revan couldn't. You forget, Vitiate WAS prepared for Revan the 2nd time around. When Revan walked in, Vitiate said "I did not think you would return".

That, actually, seems rather unlikely given how dangerously paranoid and extraordinarily well-informed he is.











I disagree. He took Revan seriously enough to "focus and channel his power" and unleash a telekinetic blast at the "last possible instant" to curtail Revan's charge before trying to dominate his mind.

Now obviously he wasn't pissed until Revan put him on his ass, but that doesn't mean he wasn't taking him seriously.



No one suggested otherwise. The problem is that we have yet to ascertain where those Masters ranked. Braga, the leader and one of the last to succumb, was renowned as a pacifist, not a warrior.



I disagree. It would be unreasonable only if Revan were established to be comparable to Yoda with respect to speed or general martial prowess, a suggestion for which no proof has been offered.



That Vitiate did not, in his own words, "expect" Revan to return to Dromund Kaas does not mean that he didn't sense Revan and his companions brawl with the Imperial Guard just outside his throne room. In fact, it stands to reason that he did.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

Did you just suggest S66 is worse than SWL? I'm trying to think of a more potentially offensive statement... and I'm drawing blank.


I made the suggestion about him. And it's the truth.

DS is a little shit-talking idiot.


Originally posted by jadams3928
It's in the book. Revan creates a technique for Vitiate's mental powers, and channels the equilibrium when he is in the throne room.


That was after he sensed Vitiate entering his mind.

The quote I provided indicates that Vitiate's mind control is not instantaneously, which is why Revan was fast enough to react to it. And it's Probably the reason why Vitiate didn't attempt it a second time during their combat, but instead uses lightning and TK.

If I'm forgetting something, feel free to correct me.

Originally posted by jadams3928
He fought a sith lord who blitzed the B team?


Yup, B team which inludes members who have better speed feats than Vitiate. Palpatine slaughtered the first two before Fisto (who was fast enough to overwhelm Grievous in sheer speed) or even Windu were able to do anything about it.


Originally posted by jadams3928
Wonderful argument. When 8,000 sith lords came to Nathema, they immediately fell under the sway of Vitiate. When Revan and Malak met Vitiate for the first time, they immediately fell under his sway. This is becoming too easy.


Revan says that they underestimated Vitiate's abilities, which, like I said, Yoda might underestimate Vitiate too; he might ignore the "dark presence" entering his mind, but we both are not in any position to know that. I'm only arguing what Yoda is capable of.

And as for the 8,000 sith lords: are we to ignore an on-panel feat in favor of an off-panel feat that lacks any details? As stated before, Vitiate's mind control took enough time for Revan to react to. Wasn't there also another instance where Vitiate had to overpower his adversaries with FL before he mindraped them?

Not saying Vitiate's telepathic abilities require hours or anything, but it takes more than enough time for someone like Yoda to react to. Regardless, if Yoda can attack Vitiate before Vitiate can react, how is his mind control going to come into play?

By your own wordes, if he waited until the last possible instance to curtail Revan's charge, then he did not take him seriously, or as seriously.



See above.




And the 8,000 sith lords? At this point, it's a numbers game.




This is my point. The only chance Yoda MIGHT have is to catch the emperor unaware, and as we've seen, then chances of that happening are INCREDIBLY slim.

That interpretation is precluded by the fact that Vitiate gathered his energies at all. If he didn't take Revan seriously, such a precaution would have been unnecessary and he would have dismissed him less effortlessly. As it stands, the better, more logical interpretation is that he waited "until the last possible instant" to unleash his attack in order to spend more time increasing its potency before Revan reached him.



Re-framing the issue as a matter of numbers is unreasonable and, ultimately, unwise if one is attempting to construct a favorable argument for Vitiate in any context.

The three relevant in-universe sources conflict. One submits the Sith Lords were coerced into participating, the other two suggest that it was a cooperative effort. But even if the former is correct, two mitigating facts remain: one, the event took place on Vitiate's home turf and at his request; two, we don't know of the Sith Lords expected any sort of attack of that nature. Nyriss notes that they probably didn't, given their overconfidence.



If Yoda were invading Vitiate's citadel on Dromund Kaas, I would probably agree. But unless denoted in the opening post, the assumption is usually that both sides engage one another on neutral territory and without prior preparation.

Yoda's combat feats exceed Revan's and Vitiate's by virtue of magnitude and variety.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I made the suggestion about him. And it's the truth.

DS is a little shit-talking idiot.
When a dumbass is calling someone else an idiot, people stop paying attention.

Honestly, you both have a grasp of logic that is far away from idiocy. I'd get it if one or both of you were acting like... some other folks around here, but since you're not, there's no need to exchange insults or accuse the other of fanboyism.

This has been a pretty good discussion anyway, let's not taint it.

I'm not following. It's anything but an unfavorable argument, at least when numbers are concerned.


You're still talking about 8,000 sith lords. That's more than small towns.



Then assuming Yoda is took quick for the mind **** and can somehow withstand a force storm, he may have a chance.

When you say combat, you've got to be referring to lightsaber combat because Vitiate's force feats are vastly superior to Yoda's.

I'd rather not get into particulars there, since it will threaten to derail this discussion and tangents are so exhausting. Suffice it to say that playing the numbers game in another context might make Vitiate appear flaccid compared to other telepaths whose manipulations were much broader in scale and size.

But that's all that needs to be said, because that's a different conversation for another time.



Refer above: numbers alone are no credit to Vitiate's feats.



That's the prevailing assumption. In the critical seconds it would take for Vitiate to dominate him, Yoda has displayed the reaction time, speed, and powers to retaliate and break the connection as Revan did.



I'm referring to combat.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd rather not get into particulars there, since it will threaten to derail this discussion and tangents are so exhausting. Suffice it to say that playing the numbers game in another context might make Vitiate appear flaccid compared to other telepaths whose manipulations were much broader in scale and size.
The only one you could be referring to is Exar Kun. We have no idea how many beings in the senate chamber were force sensitive. They were also made to watch and not do anything for a few minutes. Vitiate made 8,000 force sensitive sith participate in a ritual for 10 days. Hardly a comparison.


Mind domination to the highest extent.




Again, what did Revan do to break the connection? Create a technique where one needs to channel the light and dark sides in perfect equilibrium, where nobody besides Revan has shown to do this?

jadams3928
The only one you could be referring to is Exar Kun. We have no idea how many beings in the senate chamber were force sensitive. They were also made to watch and not do anything for a few minutes.

Not quite, but as I said, that's another topic altogether.

jadams3928
Vitiate made 8,000 force sensitive sith participate in a ritual for 10 days. Hardly a comparison.

The three relevant sources conflict and only one suggests he forced them to do anything.

jadams3928
Mind domination to the highest extent.



jadams3928
Again, what did Revan do to break the connection? Create a technique where one needs to channel the light and dark sides in perfect equilibrium, where nobody besides Revan has shown to do this?

Nothing suggests that this particular maneuver was necessary to prevent Vitiate's domination of Revan's mind.

Everything suggests this. I'll get the quotes from the book a little later. It's implied that Revan needed to create a technique to break the domination. In the entire mythos, he's the only one we've seen do that to Vitiate, unless we count the hero of tython to a weakened Emperor's Voice.


You can't say that a numbers game would lower the perception of Vitiate's power and then say it's another discussion. We don't need a discussion, just examples.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Everything suggests this. I'll get the quotes from the book a little later. It's implied that Revan needed to create a technique to break the domination. In the entire mythos, he's the only one we've seen do that to Vitiate, unless we count the hero of tython to a weakened Emperor's Voice.

I'd need to see the quotes first. Scourge and Surik weren't enthralled by Vitiate without channeling the light and dark sides into some sort of TK burst. Kira Carsen threw Vitiate from her mind by simply channeling the light side.

Originally posted by jadams3928
You can't say that a numbers game would lower the perception of Vitiate's power and then say it's another discussion. We don't need a discussion, just examples.

I said making it a numbers game would lower Vitiate's perception of power because there are other Force adepts who have enthralled far more than 8,000 people. Making it a matter of numbers wouldn't make him number one by any stretch, but that's a discussion that need not be had here.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd need to see the quotes first. Scourge and Surik weren't enthralled by Vitiate without channeling the light and dark sides into some sort of TK burst. Kira Carsen threw Vitiate from her mind by simply channeling the light side.
I don't recall this. She was a child of the Emperor so that's not quite the same thing. The mechanics of his essence in her body are totally different than total mind domination.




Right, and I disagreed with this assessment because it's not 8,000, it's 8,000 sith lords. Unless you're saying ONLY numbers would lower the perception.

After the confrontation with Darth Angral, Vitiate assumes control over Carsen's body and attempts to kill the player. She is defeated, Vitiate moves to attack again, Carsen claims allegiance to the light side and says Vitiate and the dark side has no power over her, repulsing him.



True. In fact, I'd imagine what Carsen achieved was a good deal more impressive, since it required rejecting Vitiate's very essence as opposed just his will.



Bingo.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
"The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn't even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready."

^Like I said, Vitiate's mind control is not instantaneously.
Now check this example:

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.

Good enough? Emperor didn't even tried to break Scourge. He just gave him a hint about what he can do to him, if he betrays him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Revan was able to sense it and he was fast enough to respond to it, so why wouldn't one of the fastest force users in the history of SW be able to do the same? You're assuming that Yoda will ignore this "dark presence" entering his mind, which may be true, but I'm not sure how you are in any position to know this.
Revan's position is very different from that of a first-timer in the second confrontation. Revan was fully prepared to counter this threat; this is why he saved himself.

Yoda is a first-timer and he would be caught unaware.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, the only unorthodoxed method used by Revan was the way he attacked Vitiate with the force.
That was the technique Revan developed to prevent Vitiate from breaking him again. You can see that it isn't a normal Force power.

The assumption that one can land a Force push while Vitiate is trying to crush the mind is silly and unsupported. No one has ever succeeded in preventing Vitiate from crushing wills in this manner.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

Did you just suggest S66 is worse than SWL? I'm trying to think of a more potentially offensive statement... and I'm drawing blank.

That's just cold, bro.
Again?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But he is right: there hasn't been any evidence to suggest Vitiate is fast enough to contend with Yoda, who is prodigiously fast even among Force adepts (Shadow Hunter).
Now comprehend this;

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are overlooking the fact that those Jedi Masters were standing very close to Sidious. They were already in vulnerable position.

Also, you recall when Yoda confronted Sidious for the first time, what happened?

After exchanging statements, Sidious launched a burst of Force Lightning and Yoda watched it coming towards him; getting knocked out afterwards for a brief period.

Sidious is relatively much more aggressive combatant then Yoda is. Yoda, unfortunately, regardless of his power, is more in to defensive posture then aggressive posture.

Funny thing is that Yoda knew that Sidious was not to be taken lightly. And he still adopted defensive posture initially. But I am not surprised by this; Yoda adopted defensive posture against Dooku as well.

Up against Vitiate; this means death or broke. Heck, Revan understood this and was on the offensive since the beginning but couldn't get close to Vitiate; such was the power of latter.

Yoda is not without his flaws; be they mental or whatever.


Those arguments are inconclusive. I suggest that we do not get in to them because they will only mislead us.

Sidious moved like a blur during his duel with Mace. In contrast, Padawan Obi-Wan also once moved like a blur. Therefore, should we assume that Padawan Obi-Wan would match Sidious in speed?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But if that's all the Encyclopedia has to say, that's still not a decisive instance. It has been pretty exhaustively and successfully argued that Vitiate overwhelmingly relies on preparation and rituals for his most powerful attacks.

If the Dark Council died in this instance through Vitiate's powers, how are we to know such abilities are available to him at whim? Consider his struggles to bring down Revan, among others.
This is the case with every Force-wielder.

Do you think that Sidious could unleash Force Storm instantly?

Extreme powers require some level of preparation and time to manifest.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
After the confrontation with Darth Angral, Vitiate assumes control over Carsen's body and attempts to kill the player. She is defeated, Vitiate moves to attack again, Carsen claims allegiance to the light side and says Vitiate and the dark side has no power over her, repulsing him.
You're not understanding. He was ALWAYS inside her as she was the Emperor's child. He manifests himself through the children at will. He has an unlimited amount "children" out there and he has to separate his will among all his children, as opposed to mentally dominating one person.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nothing suggests that this particular maneuver was necessary to prevent Vitiate's domination of Revan's mind.

Given the resistance to TK than his followers are granted by him and the fact that Vitiates redirected lightning only made himself slide back and his clothes to smoke, I would suggest that nothing Revan could do other than that particular maneuver would have caused Vitiate to lose concentration/affected him.

You could argue that this does not apply to characters more powerful than Revan however, obviously.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Please give me a reasonable argument, and not another baseless fanboy assumption.

You are one big ass hypocrite. I mentioned the word fanboy once when arguing with you and you went on rant how that was out of order, how it's specifically "against the rules" and used it as an excuse to insult the shit out of me for a good 10 pages.

And now look at you. Throwing that word around yourself. And this thread has hardly been a couple of pages and your already insulting the shit out of people.

If you can't handle people expressing an opposing opinion to yours then don't bother coming to a debate forum.

facepalm

It was jadams3928 was the one who traipsed into this thread and started lobbing that particular word about.

Given the hilarious ease with which one could paint all of us as fanboys (jadams, S_W_LeGenD, Nephthys, SIDIOUS_66, you, and me), it's probably best that we just table that discussion.

Let it go, son.



He possesses them at once and at all times? I would need evidence of that.



This does not follow.
Unlike the Guard, Vitiate was specifically noted to be exerting both concentration and effort to dominating Revan's mind. Perhaps if his attention was fixated on combat and not such overt telepathic control, he would be all but immune to telekinetic attacks.

However, with so much of his strength diverted to another enterprise, there is no reason to assume such immunity remains.

Not to mention that, as with anything else Vitiate achieves during Revan and his battles, the advantage afforded to him by a dark side nexus is considerable. There is no telling that Vitiate, and in turn, the Guard would be so formidable on neutral ground.



That too.

All of the Emperor's children underwent a ritual to have his will imprinted in them.


The argument could be made that Vitiate's exertion was due to Revan not only being prepared for it, but developing a technique for it.

This, or at least the way it's phrased, does not answer my question.

Carsen does not appear to be under Vitiate's control at all times; when he is possessing her, her body released dark side energy and she speaks in Vitiate's voice.



The text only remarks that "this time, however, Revan was ready" (which further suggests Vitiate's success is contingent on preparation his part and lack thereof on part of his enemies) and does not mention any technique.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This, or at least the way it's phrased, does not answer my question.

Carsen does not appear to be under Vitiate's control at all times; when he is possessing her, her body released dark side energy and she speaks in Vitiate's voice.

I've beaten the game several times. It was explicitly stated that Vitiate has his essence in all of the children, and chooses to take over the children whenever he needs to, such as right after he was defeated by the Hero of Tython.



Except Revan mentioned many times that Vitiate's initial attack is mind domination and he has prepared a technique for it for the next time, so he would be ready.

And Carsen gave him the proverbial boot, yes? To repulse him when he is, to borrow a popular phrase, "assuming direct control" is an extraordinary feat in and of itself.



I do not recall preparation or invention of a special technique being used nor does the text mention any beyond Revan simply being ready for Vitiate and not making the critical mistake he made with his first visit: underestimating Vitiate's power.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Carsen gave him the proverbial boot, yes? To repulse him when he is, to borrow a popular phrase, "assuming direct control" is an extraordinary feat in and of itself.
It may be impressive but how does that compare to direct mind domination from the Emperor himself? Those are not the same things.




You do not recall Revan creating a technique specifically for fighting Vitiate's mind domination.

Originally posted by jadams3928
It may be impressive but how does that compare to direct mind domination from the Emperor himself? Those are not the same things.

No, but they are comparable.

Carsen, who seems to be for our purposes a neophyte next to any of the Force adepts here, was able to overwhelm Vitiate's direct control through sheer force of will. Next to that, I would imagine what amounts to a mind trick on steroids to be rather pedestrian.

Originally posted by jadams3928
You do not recall Revan creating a technique specifically for fighting Vitiate's mind domination.

No and a cursory examination of the text does nothing to change my mind.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You are one big ass hypocrite. I mentioned the word fanboy once when arguing with you and you went on rant how that was out of order, how it's specifically "against the rules" and used it as an excuse to insult the shit out of me for a good 10 pages.

And now look at you. Throwing that word around yourself. And this thread has hardly been a couple of pages and your already insulting the shit out of people.

If you can't handle people expressing an opposing opinion to yours then don't bother coming to a debate forum.


Lol have you only been reading my posts, or did you forget when I said I show others the same respect they show me (which I explained to you numerous times). Maybe you're still not getting it, which wouldn't surprising considering you do have a history here of being pretty dense.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, but they are comparable.

Carsen, who seems to be for our purposes a neophyte next to any of the Force adepts here, was able to overwhelm Vitiate's direct control through sheer force of will. Next to that, I would imagine what amounts to a mind trick on steroids to be rather pedestrian.
Being dominated by Vitiate himself is not comparable to going through a ritual, have a piece of the emperor's essence inside you, and being able to fight through it with the help from the Hero of Tython.




It doesn't have to change your mind. Revan states that he created a technique specifically for the next time he meets the Emperor. Hence, "I'll be ready for him".

Originally posted by jadams3928
Being dominated by Vitiate himself is not comparable to going through a ritual, have a piece of the emperor's essence inside you, and being able to fight through it with the help from the Hero of Tython.

You've presented an eloquent case that the compulsion Carsen overcame was considerably more intimate and powerful.

What help did she receive from the player?

Originally posted by jadams3928
It doesn't have to change your mind. Revan states that he created a technique specifically for the next time he meets the Emperor. Hence, "I'll be ready for him".

I would need to see the quote for this. Because alone, "I'll be ready for him" seems to be nothing more than a vow to not underestimate Vitiate a second time.

The more digging I do, the more holes I find with Vitiate's mind control and the less impressed I am.

The specter of Orgus Din does not seem to convey any top secret technique, but instead simply tells the Hero to be "stronger than influence" and, in a matter of moments, the Hero is released. Afterwards, Carsen indicates her achievement with Vitiate is very similar: "I know you're still in there. You're not one of them. If I can beat him, you can too! Additionally, an enthralled!Tol Braga had long "broke free" of Vitiate's influence by the time the player duels him.

It's also telling that Vitiate only succeeded in breaking Braga and the Hero down after they were helpless and either unconscious or lapsing into it.

Unless there is something else to be offered, I am completely unconvinced that Vitiate can dominate a powerful Force user on his guard, much less restraining them indefinitely.

haermm

Originally posted by Nephthys
haermm

More to say, have you?

Maybe. I don't know if that even warrants a rebuttal.

mmm

Well, it's a well-researched and sensible argument.

On the other hand, it's not what you want to hear.

So no, probably not.

I probably will eventually. In case you hadn't noticed I'm kind of a big deal. I have so many irons in the fires who even knows when I'll have the time.

Your mom told me you'd have the time tonight after I banged the eff out of her.

With my penis.

And now I am bangin her!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The more digging I do, the more holes I find with Vitiate's mind control and the less impressed I am.
He did better job then Palpatine in this aspect. Give credit where due.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The specter of Orgus Din does not seem to convey any top secret technique, but instead simply tells the Hero to be "stronger than influence" and, in a matter of moments, the Hero is released.
This is what we get to know from the video. Fact remains that Hero of Tython was under control of Vitiate for a long time; and this is an extremely impressive feat of mind domination. And he managed to break free from Vitiate's influence after that specter showed up; doesn't this gives us an hint that the specter actually helped him in doing so regardless of the statement?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Afterwards, Carsen indicates her achievement with Vitiate is very similar: "I know you're still in there. You're not one of them. If I can beat him, you can too! Additionally, an enthralled!Tol Braga had long "broke free" of Vitiate's influence by the time the player duels him.
And Hero of Tython helps her break free in turn (he logically learns the trick from the specter). Of-course, this is all about mind games.

Heck, Revan and Malak succeeded in significantly reducing the influence of Vitiate on their own.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's also telling that Vitiate only succeeded in breaking Braga and the Hero down after they were helpless and either unconscious or lapsing into it.
No, this is an assumption based on what we see in the footage. If Vitiate could break Revan and Malak without even the need to fight them; he could do the same with other powerful individuals as well.

Also, you underestimate Tol Braga. This guy almost held his own against Hero of Tython with his command of the Force. Tol Braga is the only Force-wielder, I am aware off, who broke free from Vitiate's mental influence without external help (as per his own claim). But this is questionable, since Tol Braga was found to be corrupted when Hero of Tython met him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Unless there is something else to be offered, I am completely unconvinced that Vitiate can dominate a powerful Force user on his guard, much less restraining them indefinitely.
Your attempts to downplay Vitiate is not a new thing. You seem to downplay the significance of Vitiate's ability to break powerful Force-wielders during confrontations. And this is the only part which is important in this discussion.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now check this example:

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.

Good enough? Emperor didn't even tried to break Scourge. He just gave him a hint about what he can do to him, if he betrays him.


Revan's position is very different from that of a first-timer in the second confrontation. Revan was fully prepared to counter this threat; this is why he saved himself.

Story based developments and the time it took some individuals to partially reduce Vitiate's influence on their own or get out of it with external help are invalid excuses.

Point is that Vitiate can break powerful individuals and turn the tide of confrontations in his favour at will. What his victims manage to do with his influence in the long run is irrelevant in the context of confrontations.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This does not follow.
Unlike the Guard, Vitiate was specifically noted to be exerting both concentration and effort to dominating Revan's mind. Perhaps if his attention was fixated on combat and not such overt telepathic control, he would be all but immune to telekinetic attacks.

However, with so much of his strength diverted to another enterprise, there is no reason to assume such immunity remains.

Except that the Imperial Guardsmen are not Force-sensitive and as such can't wield the Force. Therefore it logically stands that they do not have to consciously activate Vitiates protection in order for it to be in effect. Which leads us to logically conclude that neither does Vitiate.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I do not recall preparation or invention of a special technique being used nor does the text mention any beyond Revan simply being ready for Vitiate and not making the critical mistake he made with his first visit: underestimating Vitiate's power.

Other than the Light/Darkside Combo technique, you mean? Also, doesn't he teach the Exile and Scourge a method of resisting Vitiates control?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not to mention that, as with anything else Vitiate achieves during Revan and his battles, the advantage afforded to him by a dark side nexus is considerable. There is no telling that Vitiate, and in turn, the Guard would be so formidable on neutral ground.

Since when is Vitiates palace a dark side nexus?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The more digging I do, the more holes I find with Vitiate's mind control and the less impressed I am.

The specter of Orgus Din does not seem to convey any top secret technique, but instead simply tells the Hero to be "stronger than influence" and, in a matter of moments, the Hero is released.

So what? Legend is correct, the Hero was dominated for a considerable time and wouldn't have broken free without interference from Din's spirit. Its also illogical to assume that Din did nothing when any form of telepathic assistance would by its very nature be hidden from the audiences eyes.

Also recall that Palpatines telepathy was foiled by Koto merely speak, with no actual resistance or special technique from Marek at all.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Afterwards, Carsen indicates her achievement with Vitiate is very similar: "I know you're still in there. You're not one of them. If I can beat him, you can too!'

As others have pointed out, this is apples and oranges. You cannot equate possession to telepathic mind-control.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Additionally, an enthralled!Tol Braga had long "broke free" of Vitiate's influence by the time the player duels him.

I highly doubt that this is actually the case. Recall that Revan and Malak also 'broke free' from his control and still did his work for him, just as Braga did. Braga may have thought he was free, but his opinion is worthless considering his confused mental state and that he continued to serve Vitiate afterwards. Its entirely possible that Vitiate merely allowed him to believe he was free. With mind-control, can you ever actually know?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's also telling that Vitiate only succeeded in breaking Braga and the Hero down after they were helpless and either unconscious or lapsing into it.

It tells us nothing but what we chose to take from it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Unless there is something else to be offered, I am completely unconvinced that Vitiate can dominate a powerful Force user on his guard, much less restraining them indefinitely.

Like Revan and Malak? Like 8000 fvcking Sith Lords?

This is ridiculous, you actually are arguing that Vitiate cannot dominate anyone whose prepared? Despite him having the greatest telepathic feats in the mythos? If this was the case then why would Revan even need to stop Vitiates mental assault? Why do you need to take a droid to fight him? Because Satale and Scourge explicitly say that anyone else would be dominated.

When has anyone actually resisted him during his domination? Answer: They haven't. The only times when his control has been beaten or weakened was months after the fact and with outside help. Neither of which have any baring in this forum.

^

facepalm



Contrary to your outlandish suggestion, the Imperial Guard aren't just that awesome that they're somehow all but immune to telekinesis at all times, which is irretrievably stupid when you consider that Jedi Masters and Sith Lords across the mythos have been ragdolled by telekinesis when they were unprepared for it.



Well, if the "light side/dark side combo" TK burst is precisely what protected Revan from Vitiate and nothing else... then how did Scourge and Surik emerge unscathed, since they did not replicate the feat during the battle?



As youa rational person might expect from a world that has been populated by countless Sith Lords for a thousand years, the entire planet is a dark side nexus.





It only goes to show how fragile the bond really is, when all one need do to break it is tell one of the thralls to fight it.



haermm

Do you have any evidence to suggest that this is the case or are you simply throwing out baseless assumptions? Any ghost of a suggestion that Orgus Din somehow actively aided telepathically, when his words imply otherwise? You'll note he didn't say "you and I are stronger than his influence!" but rather, "you are stronger than his influence!"

Because if this discussion is going to devolve into "well, this could be the case," then I've already won it: I can do the exact same thing with Vitiate's reliance on preparation and rituals. The only difference is that I can actively support that theory with multiple lines of canonical text that support it.

Otherwise, your assumptions notwithstanding, I don't have to prove a negative.



Cool story, bro.

But not only is this thread not about Palpatine, no one has suggested that Sidious could permanently or indefinitely enthrall fully prepared Force users.



True, except for the fact that Carsen clearly does equate them.



I do recall. The fact that Revan and Malak continued to implement Vitiate's plan is irrelevant when they were assuming control of that plan for their own gain.



I'll remember this on all things Tobin, heneforth.
What a majestically-sprung trap, if I do say so myself. excellent



Except, unlike the Hero or Carsen, there is no evidence of Braga's release from Vitiate's hold, even when he agrees to return to the Jedi Order, indicating that such a release occurred long ago as he said.

The fact that he continued to align himself with Vitiate's goals and designs does not require that he be subject to mental domination.



The dilemma is that what I "chose" to take from it has an abundance of support: we never see Vitiate assume control of a fully prepared Force user. Instead, he relies on traps, misdirection, rituals, preparation, and an assortment of unfair advantages that, while clever, do not lend any support to the notion that he can achieve the same results on neutral ground with a fully conscious enemy who does not underestimate him.

You, however politely, are simply sticking your fingers in your ears and going "nuh uh."



There is no evidence to suggest that any of them were prepared to face him.

Revan openly confesses in the book that he and Malak highly underestimated Vitiate, who had sprung an elaborate trap for them. Scourge raises the same concern to Nyriss, who explains that the Sith Lords probably did not expect treachery from Vitiate, given that he was outnumbered dramatically. Additionally, the three relevant sources on the subject conflict: Nyriss says the Sith Lords were mentally enthralled by Vitiate, but The Old Republic Encyclopedia and the in-game codex suggest that it was a truly cooperative effort. Perhaps the Sith Lords didn't understand the ritual's true intent until it was too late.



Yup.
It's not ridiculous when, as usual, I have a mountain of support. It is ridiculous when, as usual, you protest when your support extends only to indignant outrage.



facepalm

Even if true, it does not follow that because Vitiate is the telepath supreme he can do whatever he wants to anyone telepathically despite their level of Force strength and resolve.

In case you've forgotten, even the most powerful adepts have in place limitations on their abilities. Which is why certain, more intelligent folks have sources that Sidious mentally subjugated billions and telepathically manipulated anywhere from millions to trillions of Coruscant's population, but don't argue that "lol he can mindpwn anyone anywhere mwahahahah!" As you indicated, a lone prepared Force user is able to shrug off the influence of a man who can do all that.

UnuThul was bolstered by the Force potential of countless Killiks and succeeded in manipulating Luke Skywalker, whose powers were bolstered by zilch, until Skywalker was prepared for him and then it ended in abject failure.

But I'll give you credit for trying to quietly introduce a blatant no-limits fallacy to Vitiate.



Where?



facepalm

How about Revan? Or are we skipping that big plot twist for your convenience?





That's if he succeeds in enthralling them in the first place. Which I suppose you could argue, if you mean to suggest that Yoda will either do nothing or take a nap.

Note: this awesomeness deserved a second post




What does have bearing in this forum is use of canon support and logical deduction.

I have painted a magnificent picture using ample support from three texts and in-game cutscenes. I have constructed an exhaustive argument, extraordinarily well-supported, that Vitiate relies inordinately on preparation, rituals, and traps to achieve his ends. I have successfully exposed the overwhelming failures on his part to ensnare prepared adversaries without either using those tools or first knocking them unconscious. I have successfully identified the fact that an attempt by Vitiate to subjugate a prepared enemy, even when on a dark side nexus in the heart of his empire, requires a considerable application of his concentration and strength, affording many enemies the time to counterattack before it the effect can be achieved. I have compiled examples of where Vitiate's control has been reduced by physical distance and shattered by sheer force of will.

In response, what you've done is offer baseless alternatives, rely on a blatant no-limits fallacy, and ignore the various text/s time and again in order to cling desperately to a staggering, battered worldview that will only continue to crumble beneath my superior intellect.

But even if I were to entertain your foolish, pedestrian responses... to borrow your plebeian phrase, "so what?" I need not conclusively prove that Vitiate's mind control is a two-bit parlor trick with respect to a prepared Force user. All I need do is continue to put my mighty fist through your flimsy hopes, standing triumphant over your impotent beliefs as they drown in a pool of tears and menstrual blood. You believe your argument to be a raging inferno, yet instead it is a dying match, soon to be snuffed out by my righteous urine.

Your failure could not possibly be more complete. You have failed me, you have failed your country, you have in fact failed the universe as we know it and you have failed us all for the last time.

You shall promptly exile yourself into total, obsequious silence and allow your betters to continue this discussion in your stead.

And by betters I mean me and jadams, with whom I am pleasantly enjoying a civil conversation. vin

And when that is done and he topples to the ground beside you in defeat, you will prepare your mother for the banging of a lifetime.

Am I clear?

I think its clear that I hit a nerve.

Well, duh.

Between the references to righteous urine and banging your mom, it's pretty obvious I'm seething with rage.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Contrary to your outlandish suggestion, the Imperial Guard aren't just that awesome that they're somehow all but immune to telekinesis at all times, which is irretrievably stupid when you consider that Jedi Masters and Sith Lords across the mythos have been ragdolled by telekinesis when they were unprepared for it.
If this point is about Vitiate's ability to handle telekinetic assaults; He was amazingly good in this aspect. Revan slightly managed to budge an Imperial Guard with a blast of power that otherwise would have been very effective against majority of adversaries in the Galaxy. However, Imperial Guard drew power from Vitiate to save himself. And this is an indication that Vitiate's defensive abilities aren't to be underestimated.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well, if the "light side/dark side combo" TK burst is precisely what protected Revan from Vitiate and nothing else... then how did Scourge and Surik emerge unscathed, since they did not replicate the feat during the battle?
Because Vitiate didn't attempted to mind-dominate them.

However, Vitiate have given Scourge a glimpse of his telekinetic abilities before:

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
As youa rational person might expect from a world that has been populated by countless Sith Lords for a thousand years, the entire planet is a dark side nexus.
Ok. This seems to be a valid point.

However, merely by standing on dark side nexus doesn't grants a dark-sider unlimited vitality or supernatural abilities. One has to tap in to that nexus to gain some leverage.

For example: Zannah had to tap in to the dark side nexus on Ambria to summon the tendrils, which she used to defeat Bane.

So, is their any sort of hint or evidence which suggests that Vitiate used the dark side nexus to his advantage at this point?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It only goes to show how fragile the bond really is, when all one need do to break it is tell one of the thralls to fight it.
This is your opinion. Of-course, Vitiate isn't a God. However, fact remains that until Din's Force Ghost showed up, Hero of Tython couldn't break from Vitiate's spell on his own.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
haermm

Do you have any evidence to suggest that this is the case or are you simply throwing out baseless assumptions? Any ghost of a suggestion that Orgus Din somehow actively aided telepathically, when his words imply otherwise? You'll note he didn't say "you and I are stronger than his influence!" but rather, "you are stronger than his influence!"
Din advised Hero of Tython to fight internally, yes. However, this could be a criteria for Din to help Hero of Tython break free from Vitiate's telepathic grasp as well. Din may have assisted the other Jedi on his own as well in some way or form; we just do not get to see this aspect visually.

Your assertion in this regard is inconclusive unless a written canonical description of this event comes out and clears the picture for audience, which I doubt will happen any time soon.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because if this discussion is going to devolve into "well, this could be the case," then I've already won it: I can do the exact same thing with Vitiate's reliance on preparation and rituals. The only difference is that I can actively support that theory with multiple lines of canonical text that support it.

Otherwise, your assumptions notwithstanding, I don't have to prove a negative.
No, you are picking and choosing lines that suit your agenda.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Cool story, bro.

But not only is this thread not about Palpatine, no one has suggested that Sidious could permanently or indefinitely enthrall fully prepared Force users.
This thread involves Palpatine. Recheck the title.

Self-proclaimed geniuses, these days.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
True, except for the fact that Carsen clearly does equate them.
She accomplished the feat with help from Hero of Tython. Whether we visually see him doing so or not, is another issue.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I do recall. The fact that Revan and Malak continued to implement Vitiate's plan is irrelevant when they were assuming control of that plan for their own gain.
They gained self-control! Yes. But they didn't fully break away from Vitiate's telepathic link. However, they lessened it to such an extent that they were no longer his puppets.

Revan broke free fully after he underwent mind-wipe.

Later on, Revan's understanding of the Force increased to such a degree that he was well-prepared to handle Vitiate's telepathic assault. Credit goes to Revan for this. This doesn't suggests that every Tom, D***, and harry can pull this off, specially as a first-timer.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'll remember this on all things Tobin, heneforth.
What a majestically-sprung trap, if I do say so myself. excellent
An example that exposes the weakness of your arguments and supports Neph's.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Except, unlike the Hero or Carsen, there is no evidence of Braga's release from Vitiate's hold, even when he agrees to return to the Jedi Order, indicating that such a release occurred long ago as he said.

The fact that he continued to align himself with Vitiate's goals and designs does not require that he be subject to mental domination.
And how can you be so certain about this? The story isn't complete yet! Remember?

And even if we assume Braga's claim to be correct; Vitiate still broke him regardless of his mental durability/abilities in the first encounter. This is the important part for this debate.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The dilemma is that what I "chose" to take from it has an abundance of support: we never see Vitiate assume control of a fully prepared Force user. Instead, he relies on traps, misdirection, rituals, preparation, and an assortment of unfair advantages that, while clever, do not lend any support to the notion that he can achieve the same results on neutral ground with a fully conscious enemy who does not underestimate him.
Actually, when did Din's spirit showed-up, we got a glimpse of Vitiate's dark powers that broke the Jedi Strike Team. (Image of those purplish energies)

This evidence indicates that Vitiate used FLS and his telepathic abilities simultaneously. So even if we are to assume that Vitiate faces fully prepared adversaries; they can still fall in to his trap.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You, however politely, are simply sticking your fingers in your ears and going "nuh uh."
You are doing the same to much higher degree.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
There is no evidence to suggest that any of them were prepared to face him.
Their is no evidence to the contrary either.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Revan openly confesses in the book that he and Malak highly underestimated Vitiate, who had sprung an elaborate trap for them.
That statement has more to it then what you are trying to imply here. The trap was that Vitiate allowed his (then) Imperial Guard commander Yarri to trick the duo in to believing that the Imperial Guard she would help them in their assassination plot. The duo was trying to confront Vitiate and assassinate him without making hooplah in the Empire but both Jedi underestimated the bond between Imperial Guard and Vitiate. Yarri led those Jedi to Vitiate as he wanted (this was the trap). However, how could Revan and Malak know about potency of Vitiate's telepathic powers? They never had experience with this kind of threat before. So you cannot fault Revan and Malak for underestimating Vitiate's preparation in this context.

Instead of nit-picking between the statements, try to comprehend the whole scenario.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Scourge raises the same concern to Nyriss, who explains that the Sith Lords probably did not expect treachery from Vitiate, given that he was outnumbered dramatically.
Scourge was feeling overwhelmed by what Nyriss revealed to him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Additionally, the three relevant sources on the subject conflict: Nyriss says the Sith Lords were mentally enthralled by Vitiate, but The Old Republic Encyclopedia and the in-game codex suggest that it was a truly cooperative effort. Perhaps the Sith Lords didn't understand the ritual's true intent until it was too late.
Codex entry doesn't confirms nor denies Nyriss's account.

Also, I will get this encyclopedia next month and will let you know, if your claim is valid or made-up.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yup.
It's not ridiculous when, as usual, I have a mountain of support. It is ridiculous when, as usual, you protest when your support extends only to indignant outrage.
Mountain of support, yeah right.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

Even if true, it does not follow that because Vitiate is the telepath supreme he can do whatever he wants to anyone telepathically despite their level of Force strength and resolve.
But Vitiate has shown the ability to break powerful individuals; and simultaneously often. Therefore, your point is moot.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
In case you've forgotten, even the most powerful adepts have in place limitations on their abilities.
This also applies to the Force adepts whom you are trying to defend here.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which is why certain, more intelligent folks have sources that Sidious mentally subjugated billions and telepathically manipulated anywhere from millions to trillions of Coruscant's population, but don't argue that "lol he can mindpwn anyone anywhere mwahahahah!" As you indicated, a lone prepared Force user is able to shrug off the influence of a man who can do all that.
So Palpatine's limitations apply to Vitiate now?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
UnuThul was bolstered by the Force potential of countless Killiks and succeeded in manipulating Luke Skywalker, whose powers were bolstered by zilch, until Skywalker was prepared for him and then it ended in abject failure.
I have read that book.

Luke didn't just brush-off UnuThul's mental assaults. He had history with UnuThul and he used that to his advantage whenever UnuThul attempted to manipulate him. Also, UnuThul's telepathic assaults involves Dun Moch. Vitiate's telepathic assaults are much different in nature and more effective.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But I'll give you credit for trying to quietly introduce a blatant no-limits fallacy to Vitiate.
No one is applying no-limits fallacy to Vitiate. However, your reasoning is flawed and filled with loop-holes.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Where?
Neph is talking about events in the game (Story of Hero of Tython)

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

How about Revan? Or are we skipping that big plot twist for your convenience?
How about you stop underestimating Revan?

Originally posted by The_Tempest


That's if he succeeds in enthralling them in the first place. Which I suppose you could argue, if you mean to suggest that Yoda will either do nothing or take a nap.
Yoda also has tendency to underestimate his opponents. As an example: recheck the opening scene of the encounter between Yoda and Sidious in ROTS.

-----------------

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think its clear that I hit a nerve.
He is feeling the heat. Victory is within our grasp.

For the record, there are no contradictions concerning the 8,000 sith lords. They became slaves of the emperors and as slaves, volunteered to partake in the ritual.

That doesn't make any sense, bro.
Volunteering while under mental compulsion isn't volunteering.

All right, it's 9:56am and I'm calling it. Unless anyone else has something to offer, I think I'm going to pull out (something some of your mothers have probably heard me say more than once).

Jadams, good to see you, bro. Try to stick around, that was one of the funnest debates I've had in many moons.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That doesn't make any sense, bro.
Volunteering while under mental compulsion isn't volunteering.

It's still technically volunteering. The opposite would be "against their will". Since they were mental slaves, nothing they were doing was against their will.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The more digging I do, the more holes I find with Vitiate's mind control and the less impressed I am.

The specter of Orgus Din does not seem to convey any top secret technique, but instead simply tells the Hero to be "stronger than influence" and, in a matter of moments, the Hero is released. Afterwards, Carsen indicates her achievement with Vitiate is very similar: "I know you're still in there. You're not one of them. If I can beat him, you can too! Additionally, an enthralled!Tol Braga had long "broke free" of Vitiate's influence by the time the player duels him.

It's also telling that Vitiate only succeeded in breaking Braga and the Hero down after they were helpless and either unconscious or lapsing into it.

Unless there is something else to be offered, I am completely unconvinced that Vitiate can dominate a powerful Force user on his guard, much less restraining them indefinitely.

That's very true. I pointed out about it long ago. All we have is vague statements from Revan and Nyriss and never see Vitiate demonstrating mind domination in action. Instead he handles strike team with lightning and later in fight with JK he uses old fashioned Dun Moch instead. Moreover, there was no survivors on Nathema, thus no witnesses, so Nyriss' story is likely just a fear device that Vitiate rumored himself.

Sidious in comparison demonstrated mind domination on Marek and DE Luke, yet, people don't assume that he just gonna mind dominate everyone.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's very true. I pointed out about it long ago. All we have is vague statements from Revan and Nyriss and never see Vitiate demonstrating mind domination in action. Instead he handles strike team with lightning and later in fight with JK he uses old fashioned Dun Moch instead. Moreover, there was no survivors on Nathema, thus no witnesses, so Nyriss' story is likely just a fear device that Vitiate rumored himself.

Sidious in comparison demonstrated mind domination on Marek and DE Luke, yet, people don't assume that he just gonna mind dominate everyone.

There are plenty of sources that confirm the ritual on Nathema.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
All right, it's 9:56am and I'm calling it. Unless anyone else has something to offer, I think I'm going to pull out (something some of your mothers have probably heard me say more than once).

Jadams, good to see you, bro. Try to stick around, that was one of the funnest debates I've had in many moons.

Sorry, I have work so I couldn't and probably won't reply for a while.

Sidious and especially Vitiate had exceeded the use of lightsabers, that means the weapon was useless for them and they could destroy the weapon wielded by any Jedi, even the like of Luke, Yoda, Satele and Revan.

But they weren't so far beyond the lightsaber that they were invulnerable like the Force Wielders from the Overlord episode of TCW Season 3.

Originally posted by jadams3928
There are plenty of sources that confirm the ritual on Nathema.
I never said it didn't happen.
Facts are that those Sith were his allies, so he didn't need to fight them immediately. Moreover, those Sith lost the war and ran away, they were already half cooked for someone to influence them.
Sidious influenced and established control over Anakin who wasn't even Sith. Don't see why Vitiate would have harder time influencing those random Sith.

In any case JK didn't even struggle to resist mind domination in final fight with Vitiate, don't see why others would struggle.

Not exactly. Sidious stopped using lightsaber because Darkside decayed his body and he simply wasn't fit to engage in physical combat but when he started using clone bodies, lightsaber became his first choice again. As for Vitiate he simply never learned to use it.

Originally posted by Arhael
In any case JK didn't even struggle to resist mind domination in final fight with Vitiate, don't see why others would struggle.
You make sense, if you ignore all of those force users Vitiate had mind dominated and instead focused on your own biases. Then again, the Hero of Tython was a special case, fighting a weakened version of the Emperor's Voice.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not exactly. Sidious stopped using lightsaber because Darkside decayed his body and he simply wasn't fit to engage in physical combat but when he started using clone bodies, lightsaber became his first choice again. As for Vitiate he simply never learned to use it.

They both kept their lightsabers as souvenirs. They could both wield it to a more ferocious degree than any Jedi (in their physical prime though they were both corrupted and decayed by The Dark that gave them their power and immortality). Sidious could simply blow up a lightsaber at full power or blow it out of a Jedi's hands with Sith lightning and Vitiate could simply cast a spell, dominate a mind, create a burst of evil energy that will pulverize any lightsaber wielding Jedi.

The Force is far more powerful than the weapon, yet every Jedi in history was more dangerous with the weapon than without. These two most successful and evil Sith Emperors were unaffected by use of the Jedi weapon, it neither helped nor hindered them in battle for the Force was stronger with them than with any Jedi.

As it was with the Ones, but to an astronomically greater degree.

It seems a lot of the arguments revolve around a Jedi's ability to resist mental domination. It seems everyone has acknowledged, to some degree, that Vitiate's mental domination can be beaten.

IMHO, I seem to be agree with Tempest - 99.99% of Jedi would probably be overwhelmed by such domination, but if the very best Jedi (Luke, Yoda, Mace, Marek, Revan, etc.) enter the fray without underestimating their opponent, they all have the ability to resist mental rapeage.

That's actually a bit more generous than my personal estimation, but for the purposes of this thread, we're aligned.

The idea that mind control hands Vitiate victory on a silver platter has been soundly defeated.

That was never the idea. The only thing that has been soundly defeated is that Yoda or the top tier jedi are guaranteed to beat Vitiate's mind control.

As for the purposes of this thread, which two Jedi can defeat DE Sidious & Vitiate: Luke & Yoda/Mace/Galen/Revan, or Yoda & Mace/Galen/Revan IMO.

Originally posted by jadams3928
That was never the idea.

No, that was the idea between you and Neph. My SOP regarding SWL is to ignore him, but I bet I'd find it in his posts too.

Originally posted by jadams3928
The only thing that has been soundly defeated is that Yoda or the top tier jedi are guaranteed to beat Vitiate's mind control.

lol

Originally posted by -kV-
As for the purposes of this thread, which two Jedi can defeat DE Sidious & Vitiate: Luke & Yoda/Mace/Galen/Revan, or Yoda & Mace/Galen/Revan IMO.

Feat-to-feat, Luke absolutely demolishes Vitiate once the mind tricks are all nullified. Then he goes on to waste Sidious after a better fight.

For the others? A combination of Sidious and Vitiate would require more than two.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Feat-to-feat, Luke absolutely demolishes Vitiate once the mind tricks are all nullified. Then he goes on to waste Sidious after a better fight.

That's precisely your problem. You say someone has a chance against Vitiate once (insert force power) has been nullified. That's not how this works. Ok, Once Luke loses control of his bowel movements, Vitiate owns him.

Originally posted by jadams3928
That's precisely your problem. You say someone has a chance against Vitiate once (insert force power) has been nullified.

facepalm

Vitiate is a one-trick pony. Without his mind tricks, he's an above average Force user whose combat prowess is woefully inadequate to take on someone of Luke's caliber.

Originally posted by jadams3928
That's not how this works.

lol

How is that not how this works? There is absolutely zero evidence to suggest Vitiate can successfully ensnare a prepared opponent at whim and without preparation. He would then have to rely on his combat skills to win the day and that's just not going to happen.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Ok, Once Luke loses control of his bowel movements, Vitiate owns him.

Of course, if Vitiate had the power to make that happen and Luke could not defend against it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

Vitiate is a one-trick pony. Without his mind tricks, he's an above average Force user whose combat prowess is woefully inadequate to take on someone of Luke's caliber.

Yep, one trick pony. If we ignore his purging of two dark councils, his destruction of Tol Braga and Co, and his ownage of Revan.



His force powers are sufficient enough for him to win almost any battle, and without a lightsaber.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Yep, one trick pony.

Exactly, yes.

Originally posted by jadams3928
If we ignore his purging of two dark councils,

Under unknown circumstances and with an unknown amount of preparation, one of which stems entirely from an in-universe source riddled with hyperbole.

Originally posted by jadams3928
his destruction of Tol Braga and Co,

He had plenty of time to prepare for the confrontation during the skirmish with Scourge that he witnessed. Additionally, the caliber of Braga's strike team has yet to be determined.

You uncharitably referred to Mace's strike team as "the B-team," why should I not scoff in turn?

Originally posted by jadams3928
and his ownage of Revan.

A victory that occurred on a dark side nexus. Revan allowed Vitiate to gather his energies and foolishly tried to absorb the attack.

Originally posted by jadams3928
His force powers are sufficient enough for him to win almost any battle, and without a lightsaber.

This is extraordinarily broad. It would be like me saying that, since Sidious killed three of the Jedi Order's finest swordsmen in seconds, he could replicate such a stomp "in almost any battle" against almost any three opponents.

Would you support this notion? Of course not, you'd call anyone who said it a fanboy and dismiss it out of hand.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Without his mind tricks, he's an above average Force user whose combat prowess is woefully inadequate to take on someone of Luke's caliber.

Lol. You really are seeming a little biased here. I can understand dismissing the telepathy, but ignoring Vitiates Force Lightning and telekinesis is just silly. On top of his other pretty cool powers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol. You really are seeming a little biased here.

facepalm

Bro, your argument was demolished on the last page. You should try contain the butthurt with the necessary ointments and contribute.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can understand dismissing the telepathy,

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Nephthys
but ignoring Vitiates Force Lightning and telekinesis is just silly.

Pardon, was this the same lightning that a minor prodigy circumvented casually via lightsaber? Or the lightning that required time to channel and unleash?

Or the TK that he has to charge in order to put Revan on his ass... who promptly got back on his feet, unharmed?

Originally posted by Nephthys
On top of his other pretty cool powers.

Name 'em.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

Bro, your argument was demolished on the last page. You should try contain the butthurt with the necessary ointments and contribute.



Concession accepted.



Pardon, was this the same lightning that a minor prodigy circumvented casually via lightsaber? Or the lightning that required time to channel and unleash?

Or the TK that he has to charge in order to put Revan on his ass... who promptly got back on his feet, unharmed?



Name 'em.

I haven't even read your post yet, lol.

That joke sure does never stop being funny.

All that shows is that the Hero is exceptionaslly powerful, not that Vitiates lightning is weak.

No, the lightning that disintegrated metal and was enough to domolish the temple at the start while Vitiate was dying.

Shadow Clone no jutsu for one. I have to leave for work but I'lll see if he did anything else in the morning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I haven't even read your post yet, lol.



Of course you didn't. It's not like you didn't read it anxiously and respond to comment on perceived anger.

Oh, wait. You did.

facepalm

Try harder, bro.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That joke sure does never stop being funny.

I know.

Originally posted by Nephthys
All that shows is that the Hero is exceptionaslly powerful, not that Vitiates lightning is weak.

Or it shows that Vitiate's lightning is weak and the Hero is just a minor prodigy?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, the lightning that disintegrated metal

Where?

Originally posted by Nephthys
and was enough to domolish the temple at the start while Vitiate was dying.

And yet somehow, during that same fight, the TK wasn't used with any success against a Force user and a non-Force sensitive droid?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Shadow Clone no jutsu for one.

Damn, forgot about that one. That'll definitely bag him a win. Luke Skywalker's only an exceptionally powerful Force user, but he's no astro-mech.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I have to leave for work but I'lll see if he did anything else in the morning.

So you're mad at me for not taking his "other pretty cool" powers into account, but when asked... you haven't apparently taken them into account either?

Are you sure you're not the biased one?

Sorry Tempest, but the only argument that was destroyed was yours. It was entertaining at the beginning but after pages of excuses, nonsense, and bias, quit while you're behind.

I'm not seeing why his arguments are shut down. If vitiate can't dominate Sidious which come on isn't happening, what does he have? He has no combat prowess.

And if he does his feats are nothing compared to Sids.

Originally posted by Based
I'm not seeing why his arguments are shut down. If vitiate can't dominate Sidious which come on isn't happening, what does he have? He has no combat prowess.

And if he does his feats are nothing compared to Sids.


Because for every one of Vitiate's accomplishments, it's nonsensical excuses. It's debatable whether or not he can dominate Sidious but his vast array of force powers are more than capable of taking Sidious down. Feats are irrelevant unless Sidious can get close enough with a saber.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Sorry Tempest, but the only argument that was destroyed was yours. It was entertaining at the beginning but after pages of excuses, nonsense, and bias, quit while you're behind.

Are you going to respond to my points or ruin what had been, up til the post I'm quoting, a civil conversation between the two of us on an issue that has historically led to flaming and trolling?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Are you going to respond to my points or ruin what had been, up til the post I'm quoting, a civil conversation between the two of us on an issue that has historically led to flaming and trolling?

There's not much to respond to, because your rebuttal is "nuh uh this happened because (insert excuse here) so if you take way (random force power), Vitiate has no chance."

Originally posted by jadams3928
There's not much to respond to, because your rebuttal is "nuh uh this happened because (insert excuse here) so if you take way (random force power), Vitiate has no chance."

lol

Ok, then let's dispense with pretense, and speak very plainly.

Why should I be charitable with Vitiate's feats and interpret things your way when you do not reciprocate?

As I specific example, why should I be impressed with Vitiate's massacre of Tol Braga's strike team but not Sidious's manhandling of "the B-team"?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
lol

Ok, then let's dispense with pretense, and speak very plainly.

Why should I be charitable with Vitiate's feats and interpret things your way when you do not reciprocate?

As I specific example, why should I be impressed with Vitiate's massacre of Tol Braga's strike team but not Sidious's manhandling of "the B-team"?

Because one deals with mind domination and a force arsenal, while the other one deals with lightsaber combat. You're wasting time comparing apples and oranges.

Actually, no, it's a fair question on an issue of combat prowess.

You clearly put no stock in Sidious's accomplishment with a team of celebrated swordmasters but take umbrage when I do not share your perspective on Vitiate's feats.

Because it's coming across like you're grumpy that people are questioning Vitiate while you question others.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Actually, no, it's a fair question on an issue of combat prowess.

You clearly put no stock in Sidious's accomplishment with a team of celebrated swordmasters but take umbrage when I do not share your perspective on Vitiate's feats.

Because it's coming across like you're grumpy that people are questioning Vitiate while you question others.

It's not a fair question because you're comparing lightsaber combat to mind domination and a force arsenal. The logical argument would conclude that Vitiate has a VERY good chance of mind dominating Sidious, or at the very least, holding his own in force combat. Logic also suggests that if Sidious CAN get close, he will win in a saber battle.

No, you're misunderstanding.

I want you to explain to me why it's logical to dismiss Sidious's feat when it suits your argument but it's not logical for me to dismiss Vitiate's when it suits mine.

I personally don't care that you lowballed Tiin, Kolar & Fisto. I do care when you expect your opponents to conduct themselves differently from you.

It's a methodological argument at this point and one I'd very much like resolved if this debate and others with you are to continue in the future.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, you're misunderstanding.

I want you to explain to me why it's logical to dismiss Sidious's feat when it suits your argument but it's not logical for me to dismiss Vitiate's when it suits mine.
Because my argument assumes Vitiate doesn't get to lightsaber combat and your argument assumes Sidious bypasses the mental domination and a force battle to use a saber.


Because it's not an impressive feat for me when I never mentioned lightsaber combat.



There's nothing to resolve. Vitiate never trained with a lightsaber because he never needed to so I expect him to lose IF he fails to subdue his opponent before his opponent can cleave him with a saber.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Because my argument assumes Vitiate doesn't get to lightsaber combat and your argument assumes Sidious bypasses the mental domination and a force battle to use a saber.

My argument isn't anything of the sort.

First, I haven't once pitted Sidious against Vitiate.

Second, with those whom I have pitted against Vitiate, my argument is that the mind trick will not work against a prepared Force user and not without prior preparation on Vitiate's part.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Because it's not an impressive feat for me when I never mentioned lightsaber combat.

But SIDIOUS_66 did on the first or second page and in that very context; you dismissed it out of hand, disparagingly referring to them as "the B team."

He was using it to suggest that Yoda, who held his own against Sidious, is extraordinarily fast among Force users.

Originally posted by jadams3928
There's nothing to resolve. Vitiate never trained with a lightsaber because he never needed to so I expect him to lose IF he fails to subdue his opponent before his opponent can cleave him with a saber.

There is everything to resolve. We are to exchange arguments. I will throw jabs and taunts in if my opponent becomes aggressive or hostile, but not at the expense of the overall argument. Anything else is just trolling.

Do you really want this to devolve into trolling? Because that is the ultimate waste of time.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
My argument isn't anything of the sort.

First, I haven't once pitted Sidious against Vitiate.

Second, with those whom I have pitted against Vitiate, my argument is that the mind trick will not work against a prepared Force user and not without prior preparation on Vitiate's part.
But this argument is pure speculation because we've seen it work on everybody.





Until you can show an example of someone withstanding Vitiate's mind domination (not the Emperor's Children or the Hero of Tython fighting a weakened Emperor's Voice), your argument is pure speculation.

I gathered and presented multiple quotes from three different sources that support the argument that Vitiate has never applied the technique successfully against a prepared Force user at whim.



It worked on opponents who have either underestimated him or were beaten unconscious.



It didn't work on Revan.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I gathered and presented multiple quotes from three different sources that support the argument that Vitiate has never applied the technique successfully against a prepared Force user at whim.
Except we've only seen one opponent who was truly prepared, and he needed to achieve perfect equilibrium of light and dark side. There are no other sources, so again, your argument is speculation. But regardless of preparation or not, 8,000 sith lords is 8,000 sith lords.




So you're going to make excuses again? "If this happens and then this happens and then this happens, then Vitiate loses." We get it. But you have absolutely no evidence that evidence other than Revan's technique would be sufficient enough to fight the mind domination.

There is no evidence that Revan needed to achieve perfect equilibrium with the light and dark side to resist.



No, The Old Republic Encyclopedia and in-game codex indicate that it was an effort of cooperation on part of the Sith Lords, not coercion from Vitiate.



Regardless of preparation?

Preparation can mean the difference between life and death, even for Force users. Aayla Secura was shot in the back by her clone commandos; by your logic, they'd kill her every time, "regardless of preparation."



You have absolutely no evidence to suggest that Revan's technique is necessary to resist when all it did was put Vitiate on his ass.

It isn't an excuse to point out that Vitiate's efforts, even on a dark side nexus, take time and concentration. Plenty of time for an extraordinarily fast Force user like Yoda to respond in kind.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
There is no evidence that Revan needed to achieve perfect equilibrium with the light and dark side to resist.
Except all Revan explicitly stated in the book. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not.




Who were already under his sway. I have the Encyclopedia too.




Lets see. Revan is the only one to create a specific technique to combat Vitiate's mind domination. Revan is the only one who succeeded in this regard. Logical deduction ftw! Next=?



Vitiate's throne room wasn't a dark side nexus.

No, JK is not special case. He broke free from mind domination because a ghost spirit encouraged him. Then same way other mind dominated Jedi from strike team broke free with encouragment from JK. What makes him special is that he was confident to confront Vitiate and others hyped him as the only one to resist domination because he never said them about a ghost helping him.
In any case the strike team got mind dominated after being rendered unconscious. Similarly Revan got his memory wiped out by Jedi while unconscious, do we assume that those Jedi can mind wipe him in combat?

There is no evidence that Vitiate could mind dominate any powerful and experienced Jedi in combat. Deal with it.

Also, it is not the fact that JK fought weakened Emperor. If player completes a quest, then he fights recovered Emperor. Also, JK was weakened as he needed to kill hell lot of people just to get to him. And Vitiate himself stated that JK wasted his power saving the weak. Like it or not JK defeated Vitiate fair and square.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Except all Revan explicitly stated in the book. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not.

Where is it explicitly stated in the book that one has to channel the light and dark side perfectly to stop Vitiate?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Who were already under his sway. I have the Encyclopedia too.

Where is that said in the Encyclopedia and what is the full quote?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Lets see. Revan is the only one to create a specific technique to combat Vitiate's mind domination. Revan is the only one who succeeded in this regard. Logical deduction ftw! Next=?

Revan was the only one who didn't underestimate him. I see no reason why we should assume Yoda would underestimate him.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Vitiate's throne room wasn't a dark side nexus.

All of Dromund Kaas is strong with the dark side, per Revan. I gave the quote earlier in this thread in a response to Nephthys.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Where is it explicitly stated in the book that one has to channel the light and dark side perfectly to stop Vitiate?
Revan explicitly stated that he figured out a way to combat Vitiate's mind domination, and he did it with his technique.




Yup, the same guy who watched Sidious raise his arms and shoot him with force lightning. Great example.



Nice Red Herring. You said dark side nexus. That is not the same thing as "strong with the dark side."



Except that he has, so quit crying. Maybe you should amend your idiot statement to say "there is no evidence Vitiate could dominate anyone that he hasn't dominated already." That idiocy would make more sense.



What are you babbling about? Completes what quest? I've played the JK twice. Him fighting a weakened Emperor's Voice IS the storyline.

Originally posted by Arhael
In any case the strike team got mind dominated after being rendered unconscious. Similarly Revan got his memory wiped out by Jedi while unconscious, do we assume that those Jedi can mind wipe him in combat?

That's a good point.

Or, as been referenced, the Emperor with Marek and Luke. In the case of the former, he was distracted and nearly-consumed with hatred: all it took was Bail Organa shouting at him to break him free. With Luke, he had just been beaten by Sidious on Byss, a dark side nexus. When urged by Leia aboard The Eclipse, he freed himself.

Originally posted by Arhael
If player completes a quest, then he fights recovered Emperor.

Really?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's a good point.

Or, as been referenced, the Emperor with Marek and Luke. In the case of the former, he was distracted and nearly-consumed with hatred: all it took was Bail Organa shouting at him to break him free. With Luke, he had just been beaten by Sidious on Byss, a dark side nexus. When urged by Leia aboard The Eclipse, he freed himself.
Great point, if you disregard the 8,000 mind wiped sith lords.

Why are you being so hostile lol?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Revan explicitly stated that he figured out a way to combat Vitiate's mind domination, and he did it with his technique.

That's not quite what I asked. You said Revan explicitly stated one need channel the light and dark sides of the Force in perfect equilibrium to resist Vitiate?

What is the full quote?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Yup, the same guy who watched Sidious raise his arms and shoot him with force lightning. Great example.

I didn't say Yoda was incapable of underestimating Vitiate, I asked you why we should assume he would when we typically do not include character idiosyncrasies in debates.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Nice Red Herring. You said dark side nexus. That is not the same thing as "strong with the dark side."

It's typically the same thing, is it not? A location potent with the dark side?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Great point, if you disregard the 8,000 mind wiped sith lords.

There is nothing to disregard. Of the three relevant sources, only one suggests that an unspecified number of Sith Lords were enthralled an unspecified time after arriving on Nathema.

The other two sources convey that they volunteered to partake in the ritual after their arrival.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Why are you being so hostile lol?
Because this forum has been full of morons for the past year so I call them out.



I did not say that, nor does it need to be said. Revan said he figured out a way to fight the emperor's domination and that next time, he'll be ready. When they meet, he's ready for the mind domination and unleashes the technique. The fact that he created a technique to specifically fight the mind domination DOES NOT NEED to be explicitly stated. The fact that this technique is the only thing that worked puts the burden of proof back on you.




Because we saw him already underestimating the most powerful sith lord ever?



No, it is not.

Which two sources? I have all these sources, and none of them contradict one another.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Because this forum has been full of morons for the past year so I call them out.

Are you sure? Because it seems like you're getting mad that people are disagreeing with you.

Originally posted by jadams3928
I did not say that, nor does it need to be said.

Are you sure?



Except all Revan explicitly stated in the book. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not.

^ That looks like you saying exactly that, IMHO.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Revan said he figured out a way to fight the emperor's domination and that next time, he'll be ready. When they meet, he's ready for the mind domination and unleashes the technique. The fact that he created a technique to specifically fight the mind domination DOES NOT NEED to be explicitly stated. The fact that this technique is the only thing that worked puts the burden of proof back on you.

It seems extremely unlikely that this is the case, bro. Revan notes that Vitiate was "hesitant" and "uncertain" when Surik entered the fray, yet she didn't channel the light and dark side in an explosion nor was she enthralled by him.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Because we saw him already underestimating the most powerful sith lord ever?

Again, since when do we consider character foibles and idiosyncrasies in these threads? That seems like a dangerous road to walk.

Originally posted by jadams3928
No, it is not.

Seems to be the case. Luke refers to a nexus as places where the Force lingers and concentrates in Fate of the Jedi: Outcast.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Which two sources? I have all these sources, and none of them contradict one another.

"Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon."

The text indicates that it was voluntary act that was later celebrated by Imperial scholars as a rare demonstration of cooperation among Sith for the betterment of the empire (the codex).

Use of mental suggestion/mind tricks/etc. would preclude that as being the case.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Are you sure? Because it seems like you're getting mad that people are disagreeing with you.
Like you were with DE? There's a difference. I don't get mad when I'm right





Positive




Yup


Yup, I said Revan explicitly stated that he figured out a way to combat the Emperor's mind domination. Good job.




Nor does it state anywhere that Vitiate tried to dominate her.





That was never a definition of a force nexus. Do a wiki on force nexus.

And you said two sources? Where are these sources. Then again, how valid would the SWTOR source be when nobody that could know about the Ritual could have survived? And the SWTOR source is the same one that stated that after Vitiate performed the ritual and destroyed the planet, he blamed the Jedi.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Like you were with DE? There's a difference. I don't get mad when I'm right

I already explained it to you:




Originally posted by jadams3928
Yup, I said Revan explicitly stated that he figured out a way to combat the Emperor's mind domination. Good job.

I said "there is no evidence" that one has to channel the light and dark sides in perfect equilibrium to resist; you said Revan "explicitly" says it in the book.

Maybe you misspoke?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Nor does it state anywhere that Vitiate tried to dominate her.

Why wouldn't he?

Originally posted by jadams3928
That was never a definition of a force nexus. Do a wiki on force nexus.

I'm supposed to take a wiki entry's word over Luke's in an actual source?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Also here's another source from the swtor game

http://www.wikiswtor.com/Codex/Galactic_History_31:_The_Ritual_of_Nathema

I'll take a look.

By the way, the official TOR website says Dromund Kaas "bristles" with the dark side.

Oh, didn't see your edit there. That's awkward, my bad.



No domination is mentioned in the source to which you just linked me. The sources I'm using are The Old Republic Encyclopedia and the codex, which separately indicate that it was an act of cooperation among the Sith as opposed to coercion by Vitiate.

As far as their validity, well, all of the sources in question are in-universe: Nyriss, the Old Republic Encyclopedia, and the codex. They're all equally fallible and we should be skeptical of all of them, which is why discerning information about the ritual is so damn hard.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I already explained it to you:
You can take all the jabs you want. If you're wrong, it doesn't matter me in the slightest.



The argument was regarding Revan's technique. The fact that you needed to mention the specific technique to try to shift the burden of proof, when it's already been proven that Revan created a technique to fight the Emperor, is telling enough. If you weren't reaching, you wouldn't have said what you said. Had you said, "there is no evidence that one has to have a technique to fight Vitiate's mind domination", you would be wrong. So I applaud your semantics.




Luke isn't an authority on force nexus. Wikipedia has plenty of sources that determine what a source nexus is.



So what? Ossus bristled with the light side. That doesn't make it a nexus.

All of the SWTOR sources support the Revan novel and Nyriss' account, which was written first, except for the ritual. The SWTOR sources contradict themselves regarding the ritual. When the game first created and we found out about the sith emperor, the source stated that Vitiate blamed the destruction of Nathema on the jedi.

Originally posted by jadams3928
You can take all the jabs you want. If you're wrong, it doesn't matter me in the slightest.

I... didn't say that it would bother you. I asked you why you were being so hostile, especially to poor Arhael, you deflected by comparing your behavior with my conduct's to Nephthys and I just explained to you that if my opponent is aggressive or hostile, I'll throw jabs back.

Just wondering why, when everyone's being pretty polite with you, you get angry when they disagree with you.

Originally posted by jadams3928
The argument was regarding Revan's technique. The fact that you needed to mention the specific technique to try to shift the burden of proof, when it's already been proven that Revan created a technique to fight the Emperor, is telling enough. If you weren't reaching, you wouldn't have said what you said. Had you said, "there is no evidence that one has to have a technique to fight Vitiate's mind domination", you would be wrong. So I applaud your semantics.

Bro, why are you trying to read into my posts rather than what they actually say? You don't see me snidely pointing out that the source you provided me about the Ritual of Nathema only helped my argument and, when you realized it, you edited your post to try to cover it up.

Let's just stick to the argument and disregard the rest, ok?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Luke isn't an authority on force nexus. Wikipedia has plenty of sources that determine what a source nexus is.

Well Luke's not infallible, if that's what you mean, but... an actual source (Outcast) vs. a Wookieepedia article? Come on.

Originally posted by jadams3928
So what? Ossus bristled with the light side.

According to what source?

Originally posted by jadams3928
That doesn't make it a nexus.

Well, according to Luke it does. He describes the cave on Dagobah as a dark side nexus in Outcast; Yoda described it in The Empire Strikes Back as being strong in the dark side.

Seems to be fairly synonymous, don't you think?

Originally posted by jadams3928
All of the SWTOR sources support the Revan novel and Nyriss' account, which was written first, except for the ritual. The SWTOR sources contradict themselves regarding the ritual. When the game first created and we found out about the sith emperor, the source stated that Vitiate blamed the destruction of Nathema on the jedi.

Well, the ritual is what we're talking about, right? Of the three sources, only one (the first written, as you say) indicates that any of Vitiate's Sith Lord guests were dominated by him via the Force.

The other two are also fallible, also in-universe, definitely. But that's my point: if all the fallible sources can't come to a consensus, which do we go with?

Because finding one conflicting source (when you said there were two) doesn't help your argument? Or are you just trying to convince yourself now?



That is not a source, that is what Luke considers a force nexus.



"Seems" the same isn't the same.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well, the ritual is what we're talking about, right? Of the three sources, only one (the first written, as you say) indicates that any of Vitiate's Sith Lord guests were dominated by him via the Force.

The other two are also fallible, also in-universe, definitely. But that's my point: if all the fallible sources can't come to a consensus, which do we go with?

You've still yet to come up with the second source. I'll dig up Master Gnost Dural's journal and the Encyclopedia tomorrow because I'm 100% positive they support the Revan novel

I've told you multiple times: the two conflicting sources are The Old Republic Encyclopedia, which says that the Sith Lords agreed to partake in the ritual after arriving on Nathema, and the codex, which says it was celebrated by Imperial scholars as an effort of cooperation.



Ok, well since we're apparently not going to come to a consensus on this issue (which is tangential), I'll amend my statement and say that Vitiate conducted the technique at a place that bristles with dark side energy. Is that better?

The fact that Nathema became "the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see" AFTER Vitiate performed the ritual, suggests that my definition of Nexus (the right definition), makes more sense than yours.

You actually haven't provided a definition, you just told me not to use Luke's.

Also, what does the magnitude of Nathema's nexus have to do with anything?

I don't have my copy of the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia on hand, but this is its definition of a dark side nexus according to Gideon's essay:

Except that he has, so quit crying. Maybe you should amend your idiot statement to say "there is no evidence Vitiate could dominate anyone that he hasn't dominated already." That idiocy would make more sense.

This thread is about combat, not ritual over unconscious Jedi. The only example is Revan and Malak who never fought a single Sith but Forceless Mandalorians before confronting Vitiate. As they turned to darkside and gained greater power, they both got freed from mind domination and started their own agenda without any encouragement like in case with JK and strike team. Give a single example of Vitiate mind dominating a conscious opponent of at least Tol Braga's caliber, then we talk. That shouldn't be hard, even unknown kid in Jedi Errand could demonstrate mind domination.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Really?
Player can choose to save his girlfriend instead of heading for Emperor straight away. As result later Scourge chides JK: "You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength. We are all fortunate to be alive."

Also, Emperor says: "You dissipated your energy saving the weak, there are consequences", so JK can be considered weakened as well.