Ozymandias vs Loki..

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Flyattractor
At manipulating groups of superdupes.


Who wins?

Lord Lucien
Ozy's plan to prevent nuclear war came to fruition.

Loki's plan at uniting the only people who could possibly stop him in order to somehow make them all hate each other... was a complete failure.

KingD19
But Ozy had the advantage of fooling people he was friends with and who had no reason to suspect him.

The Avengers knew Loki had to be up to something, they just found out too much.

NemeBro
Ozymandias's plan is ultimately doomed to failure, in all likelihood.

He'd win though, due to some particularly bad writing that hinders Loki.

Kazenji
That's not really bad writing for Loki

all they had to do is get all info from Thor since he knows all about his half brother's tricks & lies.

NemeBro
Your main villain being buttraped as a punchline continuously throughout the movie and being rendered a non-threat in the eyes of the audience is bad writing.

It is difficult to take a villain meant to be the god of dirty tricks, lies, and manipulation seriously when some Russian spy makes him look like an assclown. That inexplicably Loki does manage to turn the Huc against them (Through largely their own stupidity) doesn't change that Loki suffered so much assramming abuse that he can't be considered a truly threatening villain.

He was always going to be Thanos's *****, but then he turned out to be the personal assmonkey of everyone.

Placidity
He caught an arrow, that's sort of cool.

Wonder why he bothered though, since apparently he is bullet proof. Maybe he thought it was an "enchanted" arrow. maybe.

juggerman
Originally posted by Placidity
He caught an arrow, that's sort of cool.

Wonder why he bothered though, since apparently he is bullet proof. Maybe he thought it was an "enchanted" arrow. maybe.

He did it to show show his utter badassery!!!!!!

Flyattractor
Originally posted by NemeBro
Ozymandias's plan is ultimately doomed to failure, in all likelihood.

He'd win though, due to some particularly bad writing that hinders Loki.
Are you refering to that god awful scene with BlackWidow and the backwards chair bit?

juggerman
Ozy is a better mastermind. Loki was just someone else's puppet

FrothByte
It's not really a fair fight. Ozy had the complete trust of the entire country, not to mention his entire team and he had the capability to make all his plans under cover.

Loki was a known villain to the entire Avengers, plus they had advanced intel on him because of Thor. I'd like to see Ozy try and pull off a chitauri invasion if he was in the shoes of Loki.

Robtard
I'd like to see Loki outplay Dr. Manhattan.

FrothByte
Originally posted by Robtard
I'd like to see Loki outplay Dr. Manhattan.

If Dr. Manhattan completely trusts Loki and has no suspicions of him whatsoever? Ozy didn't quite "outplay" Manhattan so much as he simply "manipulated" his friend. That's not quite as hard as taking on the entire Avengers and SHIELD when they know full well who you are.

Had Dr. Manhattan known fully well what Ozy was doing, or even had an inkling of it, there's no way Ozy could "outplay" Dr. Manhattan.

A better comparison for manipulation should be Joker vs. Loki.

juggerman
Originally posted by FrothByte
If Dr. Manhattan completely trusts Loki and has no suspicions of him whatsoever? Ozy didn't quite "outplay" Manhattan as he simply "manipulated" his friend. That's not quite as hard as taking on the entire Avengers and SHIELD on your own when they know full well who you are.

It's not as tho Loki had to actually outsmart anyone tho. He let them capture him and had his buddies bust him out. Ozy could easily replicate that.

The only manipulation Loki did was due to his "magical staff" that caused to entire team to get crabby. And all they did was fight over stuff they already had issues about(Stark and Rogers bickering, Banner upset he's a monster and no one loves him, no one trusting Snakes on a Plane). If Oz had the staff he'd do that same if not better

FrothByte
Originally posted by juggerman
It's not as tho Loki had to actually outsmart anyone tho. He let them capture him and had his buddies bust him out. Ozy could easily replicate that.

The only manipulation Loki did was due to his "magical staff" that caused to entire team to get crabby. And all they did was fight over stuff they already had issues about(Stark and Rogers bickering, Banner upset he's a monster and no one loves him, no one trusting Snakes on a Plane). If Oz had the staff he'd do that same if not better

Good argument. I'd say Ozy has about as good a chance at succeeding if he had the staff as Loki would have if he had the trust of his entire team and country... at least from the mental point of view (because I'm not sure Ozy could physically withstand a thrashing by the Avengers).

The Silent Hero
Loki didn't really do anything. He made the group fight but they reconciled quickly after. In fact apart from Thor vs. Hulk they didn't fight at all but that's to be expected because it's Hulk. He got played by Black Widow like a fool. Ozymandias's plan was way more elaborate and it actually worked perfectly.

Robtard
Originally posted by FrothByte
If Dr. Manhattan completely trusts Loki and has no suspicions of him whatsoever? Ozy didn't quite "outplay" Manhattan so much as he simply "manipulated" his friend. That's not quite as hard as taking on the entire Avengers and SHIELD when they know full well who you are.

Had Dr. Manhattan known fully well what Ozy was doing, or even had an inkling of it, there's no way Ozy could "outplay" Dr. Manhattan.

A better comparison for manipulation should be Joker vs. Loki.

Ozymandias did in fact did outplay Manhattan until the very end, when he miscalculated that Manhattan could be destroyed, which he actually accomplished, Ozymandias just didn't realize that Manhattan could recreate himself again. But taking into account Manhattan's power and his ability to see past, future and present, that doesn't really frown upon Ozymandias too much.

Loki never showed the raw intelligence and planning that Ozymandias had. FFS, Black Widow beat him at his own "mind ****" games.

Mindset
Tbf, Ozy had years to study all of them, he knew their strengths, weaknesses, and how they would react to the things he set in motion.

Loki didn't have that luxury, he really just made assumptions.

I'd still give it to, Ozy though.

FrothByte
Originally posted by Robtard
Ozymandias did in fact did outplay Manhattan until the very end, when he miscalculated that Manhattan could be destroyed, which he actually accomplished, Ozymandias just didn't realize that Manhattan could recreate himself again. But taking into account Manhattan's power and his ability to see past, future and present, that doesn't really frown upon Ozymandias too much.

Loki never showed the raw intelligence and planning that Ozymandias had. FFS, Black Widow beat him at his own "mind ****" games.

True enough. I agree that Loki didn't really accomplish much in terms of manipulating. I just think it's unfair to compare Loki to Ozymandius simply because Ozy's situation was too much in favor of him whereas Loki had the odds stacked against him from the very start.

The Silent Hero
Originally posted by Mindset
Tbf, Ozy had years to study all of them, he knew their strengths, weaknesses, and how they would react to the things he set in motion.

Loki didn't have that luxury, he really just made assumptions.

I'd still give it to, Ozy though. He knew about them in advance though and he presumably had years to plan too before coming to Earth.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Are you refering to that god awful scene with BlackWidow and the backwards chair bit?

That is probably the most notable scene, yes, but really, the entire movie made Loki come off as a smug, bumbling buffoon, and generally much less threatening and competent than he was in Thor.

Originally posted by Robtard
I'd like to see Loki outplay Dr. Manhattan.

That isn't as hard as you make it out to be, IMHO.

Dr. Manhattan, for all his ability to see the past, present, and future (And even then, only his own), can't actually act upon his foresight. Not to mention, that power itself was pretty easily gimped by a Tachyon machine, which would theoretically be something Loki could acquire, considering the Asgardians are more advanced than we are.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by NemeBro
that power itself was pretty easily gimped by a Tachyon machine "No easy task. I put roughly $2 billion in to tachyon research..."

NemeBro
I am going to wager that the prince of Asgard and manbitch of Thanos has greater resources than Veidt

Mindset
Originally posted by The Silent Hero
He knew about them in advance though and he presumably had years to plan too before coming to Earth.

Knowing about them and having close personal knowledge from working with them as teammates for years is completely different.

And what makes you think he had years to plan?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by NemeBro
I am going to wager that the prince of Asgard and manbitch of Thanos has greater resources than Veidt I dunno, after that failed Chitauri thing, they're gonna have a hard time conjuring up the necessary space dollars.

Placidity
The Empire offers loans.

Newjak
If you really want to see Loki's feats of mischief it's probably better to look at Thor the Movie where he played almost all of Asgard for a fool the entire movie.

Which includes Odin and a guy who can see everything.

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