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Perfect Cell before he kamikaze'd
vs.
Goku
Gohan
Vegeta
Trunks
(Cell Games versions. Gohan cannot go SS 2.)

Crap, I forgot to add round 2.

Round 2:
Same stips as round 1, except Pikkon is added to the Saiyan roster.

Cell wins round 1. As was made apparent in his fight with SSJ2 Gohan, Cell had been holding back a huge portion of his power... Against everyone... The entire time. In fact, Goku was literally left in awe when Cell fully powered up. Aside from that, tiny fractions of his power (Cell Juniors) were able to effortlessly shit-stomp most of the Z fighters (to Goku's credit, he was still battle-worn from his fight with Cell.)

Cell likely wins round 2 as well, but it'd be a hard-earned battle-- Pikkon adds more than you'd think. I just rewatched the Goku vs. Pikkon episodes, and Pikkon was superior to SSJ Goku(who, by that time, was likely stronger than he was during the Cell Games.) Heck, Goku only won that battle by exploiting a 'flaw' in one of Pikkon's techniques, which gave him the opportunity to knock Pikkon out of the ring--- but before that, Pikkon was winning decisively.

Didn't Pikkon effortlessly stomp Cell with like one hit?

Ha, you're right! I'd totally forgotten about that! Damn, I wish that shit would've happened in the manga.

So yeah, I'd like to change half of my former opinion. Cell obviously gets spite-stomped in round 2. Like you mentioned, Pikkon owned Perfect Cell with a single blow.

Unless there's a detail I'm forgetting, I don't think Goku got stronger during his 2nd time in the afterlife until he started training under the Grand Kai, so Pikkon lost to what was basically the same USSJ level Goku that surrendered to Cell during the Other World Tournament finals. And it looked like Cell was just cheapshotted when it came to Pikkon stopping him and Goku from fighting at that moment. Put that same Cell in a ring with Pikkon and he should knock Pikkon out of the ring faster than Goku did, as he also has instant transmission which was used to counter Pikkon's thunderflash.

Well, we know Goku was training hard in the afterlife. He eventually reached SSJ3 while there, after all. Dunno how long he had to train at that point.

Goku's training during his 2nd trip to the afterlife didn't start till after the Other World Tournament though IIRC. SSJ3 he reached at some point whilst training under the Grand Kai.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Goku's training during his 2nd trip to the afterlife didn't start till after the Other World Tournament though IIRC. SSJ3 he reached at some point whilst training under the Grand Kai.


Actually, Goku trained for the other-worldly tournament. The scene, in the anime, where Goku trains with the weights occurs before the tournament and was used to intimidate another Kai and his fighter:

R8SfpOj6vmU

Wasn't SSJ1 Gohan already at Perfect Cell's level? I remember Goku saying Gohan was much stronger than Goku or even Cell before he transformed but that was also before Cell showed his "true power"

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Unless there's a detail I'm forgetting, I don't think Goku got stronger during his 2nd time in the afterlife until he started training under the Grand Kai, so Pikkon lost to what was basically the same USSJ level Goku that surrendered to Cell during the Other World Tournament finals. And it looked like Cell was just cheapshotted when it came to Pikkon stopping him and Goku from fighting at that moment. Put that same Cell in a ring with Pikkon and he should knock Pikkon out of the ring faster than Goku did, as he also has instant transmission which was used to counter Pikkon's thunderflash. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYcEvG3rvl0
(1:46)

Not even the initial strikes from SSJ2 Gohan put Cell out of commission like Pikkon's blows did.

Originally posted by juggerman
Wasn't SSJ1 Gohan already at Perfect Cell's level? I remember Goku saying Gohan was much stronger than Goku or even Cell before he transformed but that was also before Cell showed his "true power" It was stated that SSJ Gohan was more powerful than SSJ Goku-- but it was also stated that Gohan only stood a chance against Cell due to his SSJ2 potential. As a regular SSJ he was still nothing in comparison.

Sorry, didn't realize Pikkion was so powerful. This has inspired another thread though.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, Goku trained for the other-worldly tournament. The scene, in the anime, where Goku trains with the weights occurs before the tournament and was used to intimidate another Kai and his fighter:

R8SfpOj6vmU
Ah, forgot about that part. I guess it's a question then on how much stronger Goku became prior to the Other World Tournament. Still pretty debatable though whether or not he already surpassed Super Cell by that point who was one-shotting USSJs.

Originally posted by Galan007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYcEvG3rvl0
(1:46)

Not even the initial strikes from SSJ2 Gohan put Cell out of commission like Pikkon's blows did.
Doesn't really change what I said. Pikkon still lost to a USSJ during the Other World Tournament, so he likely just got Cell when he did because of having the element of surprise.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Doesn't really change what I said. Pikkon still lost to a USSJ during the Other World Tournament, ...Because he got knocked out of the ring and disqualified. Before that cheap-shot, Pikkon was very clearly superior to SSJ Goku--- he even tanked a full-force punch from Goku, who was utilizing a "Super kaioken" at the time(which would have doubled his base SSJ power.)

Regardless, in this battle there isn't a ring that Pikkon can be knocked out of for the DQ win. That'd be the difference.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
so he likely just got Cell when he did because of having the element of surprise. Pikkon flew at Cell head-on(Cell even saw him coming.) Truth is, Pikkon trounced Cell with such ease because he is simply that powerful.

Here's what happens when a being less powerful than Cell kicks him head-on:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14427089/db32_146.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14427090/db32_147.gif.html

Compare that, again, to Pikkon's kick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYcEvG3rvl0
(1:46)

Surprise was certainly an element and Cell was caught off guard.

That said it doesn't change the fact that after two hits Cell was down for the count. Really Goku shouldn't have beaten Pikkon lol.

Surprised or not, Pikkon still must have been far more powerful than Cell to be able to trounce him in such an effortless fashion.

Pikkon was SSJ2-level+.

^ Gets even worse when you take into consideration the notion that Cell probably had his Super Perfect form PL.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Goku's training during his 2nd trip to the afterlife didn't start till after the Other World Tournament though IIRC. SSJ3 he reached at some point whilst training under the Grand Kai.

Iirc, he never trained under Grand Kai, who made an excuse not to due to Pikkon and Goku being far stronger than him already.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
^ Gets even worse when you take into consideration the notion that Cell probably had his Super Perfect form PL.

And if that was the case(which it should have been, unless you think Cell lost power when he died) then Pikkon's power would have been somewhere between a SSJ2 and a SSJ3--- more powerful than the former, but weaker than the latter.

But then the inevitable question arises: "If Pikkon was SSJ2-level(or beyond) how was SSJ1 Goku able to contend with him at all!?" Two answers:
a.) Pikkon was definitely more powerful than Goku, and had the clear upper hand throughout the entire battle-- even when Goku doubled his SSJ power, his blow barely even fazed Pikkon. Like I mentioned, Pikkon was only 'beaten' because Goku cheap-shotted the shit out of him with instant transmission+Kamehameha, subsequently knocking him out of the ring.

b.) Goku evidently got a lot more powerful between the Cell Games and his battle with Pikkon--- which makes sense given a Saiyan's natural ability to become vastly stronger after enduring a severe beatdown(of which he received en gros during the Cell Games.) And as dadudemon pointed out: Goku had also been receiving training from King Kai during this period.

Aside from that, did anyone else notice that even after Goku saw Cell was coming to attack him, he still didn't opt to power up beyond the Giji(False) SSJ form he assumed when he owned the Ginyu Force?

Goku didn't receive any training before the tournament in which he fought Pikkon...at least I don't remember him having any. The clip Dadudemon posted was from after that and they clearly talk about him preparing for the tournament on Earth, not in the Other World.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Goku didn't receive any training before the tournament in which he fought Pikkon...at least I don't remember him having any. The clip Dadudemon posted was from after that and they clearly talk about him preparing for the tournament on Earth, not in the Other World. Immediately after Goku beat Pikkon, the story shifted to earth where Gohan had now aged into a teenager-- so the 5 filler episodes which featured the Tournament in Otherworld evidently represented a time lapse of several years.

Which means what? Goku had no time to train for the tournament where he fought Pikkon. The training scene Dadudemon linked took place after that.

I mean I might be remembering wrong but I don't recall there being any training aside from Goku racing the East Kai.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Which means what? Goku had no time to train for the tournament where he fought Pikkon. The training scene Dadudemon linked took place after that.

I mean I might be remembering wrong but I don't recall there being any training aside from Goku racing the East Kai. Oh I don't know if there was any training explicitly shown. I just mentioned the time lapse because I'd forgotten about it--- 5 episodes equated to several years. Wow.... But more on track: assuming Goku's natural Saiyan ability to gain significant amounts of power after being injured was still in effect(no reason it wouldn't have been) then I could realistically see his power naturally improving to the point where he was able to combat Pikkon, just from the events of the Cell saga.

During the Frieza saga, for example, Goku's PL was 180,000 before he was injured in the Ginyu affair. After he healed from that encounter, his PL was now at a point where he was able to match 50% Frieza whilst utilizing a 20x kaioken. Frieza's PL @ 50% was 60,000,000--- therefore, Goku's base PL was 3,000,000(3,000,000*20(kaioken)=60,000,000)--- these PLs were confirmed in the Daizenshuu, btw. This means Goku received a power increase of over 1,500% from that one beat-down!

And during the Cell Games, Cell whooped his ass. Then the Cell Juniors beat him down even worse. Then he got killed by Cell's kamikaze. Even if his power increase from said beatings was remotely comparable to the upgrade he received in the Frieza saga, I could definitely see him gaining enough power through his natural Saiyan evolutionary process to contend with a being who was around SSJ2 Gohan's level(likely stronger.) Remember, sans cheap-shots, Goku was still weaker than Pikkon-- he was just able to put up a really good fight, is all.

Originally posted by Galan007


And if that was the case(which it should have been, unless you think Cell lost power when he died) then Pikkon's power would have been somewhere between a SSJ2 and a SSJ3--- more powerful than the former, but weaker than the latter.

But then the inevitable question arises: "If Pikkon was SSJ2-level(or beyond) how was SSJ1 Goku able to contend with him at all!?" Two answers:
a.) Pikkon was definitely more powerful than Goku, and had the clear upper hand throughout the entire battle-- even when Goku doubled his SSJ power, his blow barely even fazed Pikkon. Like I mentioned, Pikkon was only 'beaten' because Goku cheap-shotted the shit out of him with instant transmission+Kamehameha, subsequently knocking him out of the ring.

b.) Goku evidently got a lot more powerful between the Cell Games and his battle with Pikkon--- which makes sense given a Saiyan's natural ability to become vastly stronger after enduring a severe beatdown(of which he received en gros during the Cell Games.) And as dadudemon pointed out: Goku had also been receiving training from King Kai during this period.

Aside from that, did anyone else notice that even after Goku saw Cell was coming to attack him, he still didn't opt to power up beyond the Giji(False) SSJ form he assumed when he owned the Ginyu Force?

Only reason I would assume Cell lost his power was because iirc, there were no electric sparks in his aura, and he wasn't acting batshit insane like he did post-resurrection. The former can be chalked up to animation team laziness (wouldn't be the first time), and the latter can be attributed to him no longer being around Gohan.

b) I can't remember the training, but yeah, Zenkais can really boost a Saiyan's power by a ridiculous margin. And when your base PL is in the millions, that equates to a massive, massive boost from the Zenkai.
That said, assuming your PL guide is accurate, Goku's PL as a SSJ during the Buu saga was still lower than Perfect Cell's, by a significant margin, unless of course, that isn't Perfect Cell but Super Perfect Cell.

Makes little sense IMO for Goku to survive for so long against Pikkon when the latter could two-shot Cell, but then again, it is anime filler, and I can simply be an ass and say that Pikkon never wanted to go all out against someone who was his friend. Either way, there's no reason to assume Cell's PL dropped when he was in the Other World.

Point.

Goku ALWAYS train. I see no reason for him not to train within the 7 yr gap from his fight with Cell to his fight with Pikkon. Anyone disputing this have little to no knowledge about Goku. The only reason Goku was able to even contend against a holding back Pikkon was due to a power increase (because of his battle and death at the cell games) and him training. There isn't any evidence concerning Cell being depowered when he faced Pikkon. Some people are making stuff up as they type.