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Who is the wisest of these movie superstars ? Gandalf, Albus Dumbledore, or Yoda ? Feel free to explain or cite reasoning as to why you pick a certain candidate over the other two. You can also give an order as well.

Gandalf. /thread

Originally posted by Robtard
Gandalf. /thread So you don't even think it's close ?

I honestly haven't seen Harry Potter yet, but out of the other two, definitely Gandalf.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you don't even think it's close ?

You asked who was the wisest. You didn't ask "who is the wisest and how close in wisdom are the other two in relation".

The answer is: Gandalf, he's the wisest of the three.

Listen, if you can't handle facts and resort to crying, stop seeking.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Who is the wisest of these movie superstars ? Gandalf, Albus Dumbledore, or Yoda ? Feel free to explain or cite reasoning as to why you pick a certain candidate over the other two. You can also give an order as well. Originally posted by Robtard
You asked who was the wisest. You didn't ask "who is the wisest and how close in wisdom are the other two in relation".

The answer is: Gandalf, he's the wisest of the three.

Listen, if you can't handle facts and resort to crying, stop seeking. Read it again. You acted as if it's an open and shut case. I want to hear why.

CRAP! I selected the wrong guy!


But, yes, it is Gandalf, by far. No one else comes even close. Gandalf is mildly Clairvoyant due to his massive amounts of Wisdom/experience. They didn't call him Lathspell and Stormcrow because he wanted to talk about pies. Also, he's an eternal being that has lived millions or even billions of years. Heh...he's Mormon.

I do agree Gandalf is my pick as well but I don't think it's a curbstomp. The guy wasn't wise enough to realize Saruman betrayed him and went over to the darkside. I mean it caught him completely by surprise.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Read it again. You acted as if it's an open and shut case. I want to hear why.

I don't need to read it again, I fully recall. You gave the option for explaining the choice; I choose not to.

Gandalf is wisest. /thread Deal with it or GTFO of my thread.

Originally posted by Robtard
I don't need to read it again, I fully recall. You gave the option for explaining the choice; I choose not to.

Gandalf is wisest. Deal with it or GTFO of my thread. I agree he is the wisest but you saying Gandalf/thread presumes it's an open and shut case like these other dirtbags don't belong in the same room as he does.

LoL, so you agree with my awesome and factual assessment, but you're going to argue anyways. Gandalf is wisest here. /thread

Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, so you agree with my awesome and factual assessment, but you're going to argue anyways. Gandalf is wisest here. /thread It's not a fact but explain to me how the rest of your order goes. Who takes second and third ?

I'm gonna go with Albus.

Originally posted by juggerman
I'm gonna go with Albus.

Why did you choose to go with the wrong choice?

Originally posted by Robtard
Why did you choose to go with the wrong choice? What makes Gandalf head and shoulders above Albus ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
What makes Gandalf head and shoulders above Albus ?

Just stop with the strawman arguments, okay. I'm tired of kicking you out of my threads.

Originally posted by Robtard
Just stop with the strawman arguments, okay. I'm tired of kicking you out of my threads. I asked you to explain your reasoning and you have been unable to do so. That's why I think you're a fanboy. You can't answer simple questions and resort to posturing.

Originally posted by Robtard
Why did you choose to go with the wrong choice?



Just because of how HP ended. It was like Dumbledore knew EVERYTHING that would happen and it seemed as tho he planned just about everything from the start.

Even when he did f*** up and used the Resurrection Stone he seemed to immediately turn it in the favor of the good guys(allowing Snape to kill him putting him farther in the good graces of Voldey)

He always seemed to be several steps ahead of everyone.

Seems to me like Yoda and Gandolf had more times when they didn't know what the heck was going on

Originally posted by quanchi112
I asked you to explain your reasoning and you have been unable to do so. That's why I think you're a fanboy. You can't answer simple questions and resort to posturing.
There are so many answers as to gandalfs superior wisdom that there just arent enough hours in the day.

Originally posted by omgchos
There are so many answers as to gandalfs superior wisdom that there just arent enough hours in the day. Then a few examples shouldn't be difficult. I mean Gandalf was so wise he really saw Saruman betraying him, amirite ?

Gandalf played Middle Earth like a conductor conducts and orchestra. He knew the right thing to say and when to say it, and when that didn't work, he took the necessary action.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I asked you to explain your reasoning and you have been unable to do so. That's why I think you're a fanboy. You can't answer simple questions and resort to posturing.

You gave the option, I choose not to. Besides, you're agreeing the Gandalf is wisest here, so don't you have your own reasons or are you hoping to glean some off me/others?

Learn to think for yourself, man.

Originally posted by Robtard
You gave the option, I choose not to. Besides, you're agreeing the Gandalf is wisest here, so don't you have your own reasons or are you hoping to glean some off me/others?

Learn to think for yourself, man. I have my own reasons but I'd like to hear yours. None of these characters were perfect and obviously had flaws so any answer isn't 100 percent iron clad in stone.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I have my own reasons but I'd like to hear yours. None of these characters were perfect and obviously had flaws so any answer isn't 100 percent iron clad in stone.

Reasons which apparently you're unable to state. Yeah, Quan. Good show. *golf clap*

Who said "Gandalf is perfect"? I don't recall anyone saying that.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Then a few examples shouldn't be difficult. I mean Gandalf was so wise he really saw Saruman betraying him, amirite ?
How did i know you'd say that. I must have psychic powers amirite?

Saruman was ranked above gandalf for the very reason that his was altogether more cunning and shrewd. Also how was he supposed to know, according to the movie(tho he went there for a different reason in the book) he was there for sarumans council. So logically even gandalf thought saruman was wiser than he. Your trying to gimp gandlaf by sayin ghe was ricked by someone who was always supposed to be superior to him. He was given the keys to isenguard and dominion over fangorn forest. He got corrupted by the equivelant of a god, who used the palantir to whisper to him. Sarumans pride was his only downfall. He thought he could bend the palantir to his will. Your argument is invalid.

If you really want a reason as to his wisdom ill give you one.

Hes a divine being who was placed in middle earth to defend it against its 2 greatest foes, morgoth and sauron. His powers and wisdom may not have quite rivaled theirs, but he was placed to offer council to the people fighting them and to aide in the fight. So hes no dummy. The powers of evil in middle earth were spawned from a being second only to eru the one who created it all.

Originally posted by Robtard
Reasons which apparently you're unable to state. Yeah, Quan. Good show. *golf clap*

Who said "Gandalf is perfect"? I don't recall anyone saying that. I can state reasons but apparently you can't. Every question I ask you evade and run like you're gandalf in a room full of fat goblins.

Originally posted by omgchos
How did i know you'd say that. I must have psychic powers amirite?

Saruman was ranked above gandalf for the very reason that his was altogether more cunning and shrewd. Also how was he supposed to know, according to the movie(tho he went there for a different reason in the book) he was there for sarumans council. So logically even gandalf thought saruman was wiser than he. Your trying to gimp gandlaf by sayin ghe was ricked by someone who was always supposed to be superior to him. He was given the keys to isenguard and dominion over fangorn forest. He got corrupted by the equivelant of a god, who used the palantir to whisper to him. Sarumans pride was his only downfall. He thought he could bend the palantir to his will. Your argument is invalid.

If you really want a reason as to his wisdom ill give you one.

Hes a divine being who was placed in middle earth to defend it against its 2 greatest foes, morgoth and sauron. His powers and wisdom may not have quite rivaled theirs, but he was placed to offer council to the people fighting them and to aide in the fight. So hes no dummy. The powers of evil in middle earth were spawned from a being second only to eru the one who created it all.

Well said.

If Quan bothered to read the books and watch the LoTR and Hobbit films, he'd know and have his own reasons instead of just opinion-jumping others and hoping they tell him why it's the correct choice.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I can state reasons but apparently you can't. Every question I ask you evade and run like you're gandalf in a room full of fat goblins.

Ah, the classic "I could totally kick your ass, but I won't" tactic, it's often favoured by loudmouths and cowards. Shocking you picked it.

So now once again you force me to levy an ultimatum on you, either state these reasons (which you totally could, right?) or GTFO of my thread, Quano.

Originally posted by Robtard
Well said.

If Quan bothered to read the book and watch the LoTR and Hobbit films, he'd know and have his own reasons instead of just opinion-jumping others and hoping they tell him why it's the correct choice.
Iv'e been brushin up on my silmarillion recently. Its bin a while so my facts arent as perfect as they once were.

Originally posted by omgchos
How did i know you'd say that. I must have psychic powers amirite?

Saruman was ranked above gandalf for the very reason that his was altogether more cunning and shrewd. Also how was he supposed to know, according to the movie(tho he went there for a different reason in the book) he was there for sarumans council. So logically even gandalf thought saruman was wiser than he. Your trying to gimp gandlaf by sayin ghe was ricked by someone who was always supposed to be superior to him. He was given the keys to isenguard and dominion over fangorn forest. He got corrupted by the equivelant of a god, who used the palantir to whisper to him. Sarumans pride was his only downfall. He thought he could bend the palantir to his will. Your argument is invalid.

If you really want a reason as to his wisdom ill give you one.

Hes a divine being who was placed in middle earth to defend it against its 2 greatest foes, morgoth and sauron. His powers and wisdom may not have quite rivaled theirs, but he was placed to offer council to the people fighting them and to aide in the fight. So hes no dummy. The powers of evil in middle earth were spawned from a being second only to eru the one who created it all. So because someone is stationed above you and is more shrewd and cunning then you have to totally trust everything they say and do. The signs were there. Gandalf was completely caught off guard. That's the point. The guy was resilient and was rescued out of there but come on. The whole give the ring to Frodo backfired in the end. The guy wouldn't even toss the ring into Mount Doom. It happened by luck. Mostly your reasons fall into book hyperbole. Not surprised he's an angel/divine, lol.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ah, the classic "I could totally kick your ass, but I won't" tactic, it's often favoured by loudmouths and cowards. Shocking you picked it.

So now once again you force me to levy an ultimatum on you, either state these reasons (which you totally could, right?) or GTFO of my thread, Quano. Gandalf seemed to read those around him well. He seemed to see what people were capable of before anyone else was. Gandalf knew the right path to go on and was up against much harder odds than the other two. The reason why I don't think it was a stomp is because Gandalf was completely hoodwinked by Saruman and the whole ring into Mount Doom bit almost blew up in his face. Frodo wasn't going to toss it in there.

Dumbledore seemed to always be a step ahead despite Voldemort assraping the Harry Potter universe. Dumbledore even used his own death to his advantage and used it against Voldemort into fooling him with Snape.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So because someone is stationed above you and is more shrewd and cunning then you have to totally trust everything they say and do. The signs were there. Gandalf was completely caught off guard. That's the point. The guy was resilient and was rescued out of there but come on. The whole give the ring to Frodo backfired in the end. The guy wouldn't even toss the ring into Mount Doom. It happened by luck. Mostly your reasons fall into book hyperbole. Not surprised he's an angel/divine, lol.
There werent many options when it came to who was gonna take the ring to mordor. Elves didnt want the job, dwarves are too greedy, men are to easily corrupted with the expetion of a few(faramir for one), boromir being a perfect example, and gandalf along with the other powerful beings would have instantly been taken by the power of the ring. Hobbits such as bilbo have shown resilience to its power. He made it all the way to the presipice without totally succumbing. The point of him losing it was that sam was going to have to make a choice, but was saved that by smeagle. Gandalfs origional plan was good but was taken apart by sarumans orcs and boromirs corruption. He's not omniscient for crying out loud. And as to gandalf and saruman, he did see it coming and was trying to leave. My point is that saruman is almost equal to gandalf and they had to choose who to be in charge, but gandalf bowed out gracefully and let saruman take over as he didnt think he was suited for the top spot. Which he was in the end. He had power even greater than that of saruman.

^
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Okay, no one said "Gandalf is so much wiser he stomps!". Just that Gandalf is the wiser of the three here.

Glad you agree with my first assessment that Gandalf wins, Quan. Good, good. You're learning.

Gandalf's position as Maiar is one of power, not wisdom. Gandalf as a Maiar doesn't show up in any substantial narrative prior to The Hobbit, so no displays of wisdom exist to suddenly make him wise. Even during The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, he shows himself to be wise... but to be the wisest?


Novel Dumbledore is heads and tails above any Gandalf, IMO. He showed a level of intelligence, understanding, and foresight that Gandalf never did. Richard Harris' portrayal captured that sense pretty well. Gambon's Dumbledore seemed like a lunatic--Gandalf>Gambondore, but not by a landslide.



Yoda isn't wise. Not by a long shot. He's a glorified quip spouter, and they don't make much sense.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Gandalf seemed to read those around him well. He seemed to see what people were capable of before anyone else was. Gandalf knew the right path to go on and was up against much harder odds than the other two. The reason why I don't think it was a stomp is because Gandalf was completely hoodwinked by Saruman and the whole ring into Mount Doom bit almost blew up in his face. Frodo wasn't going to toss it in there.

Dumbledore seemed to always be a step ahead despite Voldemort assraping the Harry Potter universe. Dumbledore even used his own death to his advantage and used it against Voldemort into fooling him with Snape.
Voldy showed time and again how unwise he was. Power and intelligence do not make wisdom. Gandalf showed that he always made the right decsion. And him being betrayed was not a mistake on his part. He had no idea before coming to isenguard taht saruman was jerking of sauron through the palantir.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Gandalf's position as Maiar is one of power, not wisdom. Gandalf as a Maiar doesn't show up in any substantial narrative prior to The Hobbit, so no displays of wisdom exist to suddenly make him wise. Even during The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, he shows himself to be wise... but to be the wisest?


Novel Dumbledore is heads and tails above any Gandalf, IMO. He showed a level of intelligence, understanding, and foresight that Gandalf never did. Richard Harris' portrayal captured that sense pretty well. Gambon's Dumbledore seemed like a lunatic--Gandalf>Gambondore, but not by a landslide.



Yoda isn't wise. Not by a long shot. He's a glorified quip spouter, and they don't make much sense.
At least you have reasons as to why Ill give you that dumbledore showed alot of wisdom in the books moreso than the movies. Tho that can be said about any book turned movie.

Originally posted by omgchos
There werent many options when it came to who was gonna take the ring to mordor. Elves didnt want the job, dwarves are too greedy, men are to easily corrupted with the expetion of a few(faramir for one), boromir being a perfect example, and gandalf along with the other powerful beings would have instantly been taken by the power of the ring. Hobbits such as bilbo have shown resilience to its power. He made it all the way to the presipice without totally succumbing. The point of him losing it was that sam was going to have to make a choice, but was saved that by smeagle. Gandalfs origional plan was good but was taken apart by sarumans orcs and boromirs corruption. He's not omniscient for crying out loud. And as to gandalf and saruman, he did see it coming and was trying to leave. My point is that saruman is almost equal to gandalf and they had to choose who to be in charge, but gandalf bowed out gracefully and let saruman take over as he didnt think he was suited for the top spot. Which he was in the end. He had power even greater than that of saruman. I get all this but acting like Gandalf is on another level than Albus Dumbledore just isn't true. He did go with his best option but the guy wasn't out thinking everyone there was a huge bit of luck the way things ended up. Albus' plan was definitely more sound than Gandalf's plan. You're right he wasn't omniscient but my god the guy should be slapped for not suspecting Saruman's corruption. Albus and Voldemort seemed like two equal opponents as well in terms of intelligence but Albus even used his own death to his advantage.

Gandalf did die but unlike Albus he couldn't just shoot back into reality which made Albus' plans that much more difficult to carry out since he couldn't jump right back into the mix as Gandalf got the chance to do.

Originally posted by Robtard
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Okay, no one said "Gandalf is so much wiser he stomps!". Just that Gandalf is the wiser of the three here.

Glad you agree with my first assessment that Gandalf wins, Quan. Good, good. You're learning. You implied as much with the /thread. You also can't argue for poop. You can't even explain to me why you believe a certain way. That's awful.

Originally posted by quanchi112

You implied as much with the /thread. You also can't argue for shit. You can't even explain to me why you believe a certain way. That's awful.

No, I didn't imply a thing, you're just too stupid to see it. You asked who was wisest of 'these' three; I said "Gandalf" and you copied me and started crying for some reason.

-

^
Gandalf's choice to pick Frodo shits on all over wisdoms. As from outward appearances, Frodo was an utterly poor and stupid choice.

Originally posted by omgchos
Voldy showed time and again how unwise he was. Power and intelligence do not make wisdom. Gandalf showed that he always made the right decsion. And him being betrayed was not a mistake on his part. He had no idea before coming to isenguard taht saruman was jerking of sauron through the palantir. Voldemort was ruled by his own fear and what not. He was wise in accomplishing what he did. He separated his own soul and became the most powerful wizard ever. The fact he had no idea someone he knew well had betrayed him is his own damn fault. Who the hell's fault is it ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
I get all this but acting like Gandalf is on another level than Albus Dumbledore just isn't true. He did go with his best option but the guy wasn't out thinking everyone there was a huge bit of luck the way things ended up. Albus' plan was definitely more sound than Gandalf's plan. You're right he wasn't omniscient but my god the guy should be slapped for not suspecting Saruman's corruption. Albus and Voldemort seemed like two equal opponents as well in terms of intelligence but Albus even used his own death to his advantage.

Gandalf did die but unlike Albus he couldn't just shoot back into reality which made Albus' plans that much more difficult to carry out since he couldn't jump right back into the mix as Gandalf got the chance to do.

You implied as much with the /thread. You also can't argue for poop. You can't even explain to me why you believe a certain way. That's awful.
Albus showed that even he could was not wise enough to avoid the curse on the gaunt ring. And as to gandalf dying, he didnt. And i dont rmember albus ever battling something as powerful as balrog so give gandalf a break.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, I didn't imply a thing, you're just too stupid to see it. You asked who was wisest of 'these' three; I said "Gandalf" and you copied me and started crying for some reason.

-

^
Gandalf's choice to pick Frodo shits on all over wisdoms. As from outward appearances, Frodo was an utterly poor and stupid choice. He picked a hobbit who was corrupted all the same as well. He was lucky the ring was destroyed. /thread implies stomp or not even close. You are quite awful at even understanding the meaning of simple phrases and forumspeak.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He picked a hobbit who was corrupted all the same as well. He was lucky the ring was destroyed. /thread implies stomp or not even close. You are quite awful at even understanding the meaning of simple phrases and forumspeak.

Actually, why do you think Sam was sent with him in the first place?

And, he wasn't "duped" by Saruman. nobody could have foreseen that he'd turn against them. And Gandalf, even when Saruman did, was able to account for it and adapt.

Originally posted by omgchos
Albus showed that even he could was not wise enough to avoid the curse on the gaunt ring. And as to gandalf dying, he didnt. And i dont rmember albus ever battling something as powerful as balrog so give gandalf a break. Albus wasn't all knowing either. But he used all of that to his advantage. He also knew enough not to be frightened by death. Gandalf died in the movie but whatever I mean gandalf wasn't wise enough to step away from the edge of a cliff as the Balrog fell. He also wasn't very wise when he left the dwarves and they were almost killed by trolls. Gandalf has a temper and isn't the angel you make him out to be in the movies.

I could see Albus or Voldemort take on and beat the Balrog as well.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He picked a hobbit who was corrupted all the same as well. He was lucky the ring was destroyed. /thread implies stomp or not even close. You are quite awful at even understanding the meaning of simple phrases and forumspeak.

LoL, stop arguing when you don't know the source material. Bildo did extremely well against the Ring's corruption aura. He had it for close to 60 years.

facepalm You orangutan. "/thread" does not mean a "stomp" by some default. It implies that the best answer was given and that the thread is done because of it. It could or could not be a stomp, that is a separate issue.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Actually, why do you think Sam was sent with him in the first place?

And, he wasn't "duped" by Saruman. nobody could have foreseen that he'd turn against them. And Gandalf, even when Saruman did, was able to account for it and adapt. Just because Gandalf didn't foresee it didn't mean it wasn't happening. That's his problem. The manner in which he conducted himself in the hobbit should also be an indicator of it being a possibility. Gandalf did adapt and win out just like Albus. Albus didn't have the benefit of being alive and helping which made his plan that much more difficult. Gandalf was hoping they made it he had no idea what was going on or anything. Like I said let's hope for the best type attitude.

Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, stop arguing when you don't know the source material. Bildo did extremely well against the Ring's corruption aura. He had it for close to 60 years.

facepalm You orangutan. "/thread" does not mean a "stomp" by some default. It implies that the best answer was given and that the thread is done because of it. It could or could not be a stomp, that is a separate issue. He was copprupted so who cares the point is the ring took it's hold. It was luck that saw the ring destroyed not some well oiled plan. I also didn't say he didn't do very well but the point is he succumbed to it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Albus wasn't all knowing either. But he used all of that to his advantage. He also knew enough not to be frightened by death. Gandalf died in the movie but whatever I mean gandalf wasn't wise enough to step away from the edge of a cliff as the Balrog fell. He also wasn't very wise when he left the dwarves and they were almost killed by trolls. Gandalf has a temper and isn't the angel you make him out to be in the movies.

I could see Albus or Voldemort take on and beat the Balrog as well.
I would only give you the point of the dwarves because this is a movie forum. In the books gandalf wasnt their babysitter he was just helping them along. And he did save their lives in the books by tricking the trolls into arguing until daybreak. As i said he did not die, darkness took him and he wandered aimlessly until he was put were he needed to be as gandalf the white. never said he died. And as to the edge thing he has the body of an old man, he thought the fight was over or at least that hed be able to get away. He has the body of an old man, and after his fight with the balrog and crumbling the bridge he was weakend. Also in the books he had just one shoted a cave troll and was also tired from that.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He was copprupted so who cares the point is the ring took it's hold. It was luck that saw the ring destroyed not some well oiled plan. I also didn't say he didn't do very well but the point is he succumbed to it.

If by "corrupted" and "succumbed" you mean he reluctantly gave the ring away; being the only one to do so voluntarily. Sure.

JUST STOP TALKING NOW.

Originally posted by Robtard
If by "corrupted" and "succumbed" you mean he reluctantly gave the ring away; being the only one to do so voluntarily. Sure.

JUST STOP TALKING NOW. By that I mean he put it away when near Mount Doom instead of throwing it in initially. I guess you didn't see the movie or thought he just liked the look of the ring. The whole point of the movies was the ring was getting to him as time progressed. The fact you didn't get that when it was clear to even newborns in the same room as this movie is beyond me.

Originally posted by omgchos
I would only give you the point of the dwarves because this is a movie forum. In the books gandalf wasnt their babysitter he was just helping them along. And he did save their lives in the books by tricking the trolls into arguing until daybreak. As i said he did not die, darkness took him and he wandered aimlessly until he was put were he needed to be as gandalf the white. never said he died. And as to the edge thing he has the body of an old man, he thought the fight was over or at least that hed be able to get away. He has the body of an old man, and after his fight with the balrog and crumbling the bridge he was weakend. Also in the books he had just one shoted a cave troll and was also tired from that. The books have no place here. That's the point. Gandalf isn't on another level than Albus. No way in hell. I like Gandalf a lot more than Albus as well but the degree in which people are acting like he's just on another level is disturbing.

Originally posted by quanchi112
By that I mean he put it away when near Mount Doom instead of throwing it in initially. I guess you didn't see the movie or thought he just liked the look of the ring. The whole point of the movies was the ring was getting to him as time progressed. The fact you didn't get that when it was clear to even newborns in the same room as this movie is beyond me.

I was obviously talking about Bildo, hence the "had the ring for almost 60 years" comment. If you paid attention to the films you'd have known that Frodo didn't have the ring for 60ish years.

But speaking of Frodo, he was another wise choice, giving the options. Frodo only succumbed while at the heart of Mount Doom, where the Ring's pull is most powerful.

GTFO of my thread, Quan.

Originally posted by Robtard
I was obviously talking about Bildo, hence the "had the ring for almost 60 years" comment. If you paid attention to the films you'd have known that Frodo didn't have the ring for 60ish years.

But speaking of Frodo, he was another wise choice, giving the options. Frodo only succumbed while at the heart of Mount Doom, where the Ring's pull is most powerful.

GTFO of my thread, Quan. He put the ring away and hid it from gandalf. Only when Gandalf scared the hair off his feet did he give it back. His face even got crazy later as he lusted over the ring. Frodo is the hobbit Gandalf gave the ring to so why you're bringing up another character who just happened across the ring in a thread about which character is the wisest is again only something you would so.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Just because Gandalf didn't foresee it didn't mean it wasn't happening. That's his problem. The manner in which he conducted himself in the hobbit should also be an indicator of it being a possibility. Gandalf did adapt and win out just like Albus. Albus didn't have the benefit of being alive and helping which made his plan that much more difficult. Gandalf was hoping they made it he had no idea what was going on or anything. Like I said let's hope for the best type attitude.

i really hope you didn't just become a total **** and spoil the hobbit for me.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i really hope you didn't just become a total **** and spoil the hobbit for me. Quit reading this thread then. I thought you saw it. I figure most people who haven't seen it avoid these threads until they do.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Quit reading this thread then. I thought you saw it. I figure most people who haven't seen it avoid these threads until they do.

You ****.

Originally posted by -Pr-
You ****. I won't purposely do so but things get cray in threads. Who knows what will happen ? Blame robtard. It's his fault.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He put the ring away and hid it from gandalf. Only when Gandalf scared the hair off his feet did he give it back. His face even got crazy later as he lusted over the ring. Frodo is the hobbit Gandalf gave the ring to so why you're bringing up another character who just happened across the ring in a thread about which character is the wisest is again only something you would so.

LoL, you fail so hard. Gandalf scared him straight, it was still ultimately Bildo's decision to give the ring up and he's the only one to do so voluntarily. Listen, if you can't be bothered to read the books, at least look shit up, unless you like looking like a chimp?

Here, let me help your chimp-like mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilbo_Baggins

Did you not pick up in the films that Frodo was about the only person who could have taken the Ring all the way to Mount Doom without succumbing to its will? Cos he did exactly that, made it to the heart of the mountain, only then when the ring was at full potential did Frodo falter. Considering the ring held the will of a god-like being, that's not too shabby. Speaks well for Gandalf's decision making, again.

I'm getting tired of having to explain the basics to you, Quam.

The Architect from the Matrix >


his wisdom is so great no one knew wtf he was talking about.

Originally posted by marwash22
The Architect from the Matrix >


his wisdom is so great no one knew wtf he was talking about.
Thats the wachowski bros for ya.

Gandalf had the foresight and wisdom to allow Gollum life, and advised Frodo do the same, suspecting he had an important part to play.

Gollum went on to destroy the One Ring.

Gandalf>

Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, you fail so hard. Gandalf scared him straight, it was still ultimately Bildo's decision to give the ring up and he's the only one to do so voluntarily. Listen, if you can't be bothered to read the books, at least look shit up, unless you like looking like a chimp?

Here, let me help your chimp-like mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilbo_Baggins

Did you not pick up in the films that Frodo was about the only person who could have taken the Ring all the way to Mount Doom without succumbing to its will? Cos he did exactly that, made it to the heart of the mountain, only then when the ring was at full potential did Frodo falter. Considering the ring held the will of a god-like being, that's not too shabby. Speaks well for Gandalf's decision making, again.

I'm getting tired of having to explain the basics to you, Quam. Bilbo is a tiny powerless hobbit. So I guess scaring a hobbit is something worth noting. You're terrible. Frodo wasn't going to destroy the ring on his own so Gandalf was wrong. Events played out that destroyed the ring the plan didn't work out. Albus' did. You actually help my argument you silly little man.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Bilbo is a tiny powerless hobbit. So I guess scaring a hobbit is something worth noting. You're terrible. Frodo wasn't going to destroy the ring on his own so Gandalf was wrong. Events played out that destroyed the ring the plan didn't work out. Albus' did. You actually help my argument you silly little man.



LoL, Bildo proved he's more than the sum of his size (if you watched the Hobbit, you know what I was talking about) . Bildo wasn't "corrupted" or "succumbed" to the ring, he gave it up voluntarily. You're simply wrong again and again and again. This is basic Hobbit 101 stuff btw.

Except it ultimately did. Bildo could have killed Gollum, but didn't due to Gandalf's words of wisdom (if you watched the Hobbit, you know what I was talking about) and it was utlimately Gollum's actions that destroyed the ring once Frodo finally succumbed to the ring's full power. Again, you'd know if you paid attention and watched films before arguing out of ignorance.

Listen. You don't understand the basics of Tolkein's works. So just stop talking.

Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, Bildo proved he's more than the sum of his size (if you watched the Hobbit, you know what I was talking about) . Bildo wasn't "corrupted" or "succumbed" to the ring, he gave it up voluntarily. You're simply wrong again. This is basic Hobbit 101 stuff btw.

Except it ultimately did. Bildo could have killed Gollum, but didn't due to Gandalf's words of wisdom (if you watched the Hobbit, you know what I was talking about) and it was utlimately Gollum's actions that destroyed the ring once Frodo finally succumbed to the ring's full power. Again, you'd know if you paid attention and watched films before arguing out of ignorance.

Listen. You don't understand the basics of Tolkein's works. So just stop talking. That has nothing to do with the thread since Gandalf didn't give Bilbo the ring to destroy it. Bilbo is some easily impressionable never been on adventure hobbit. No crap does Gandalf leave an impression but Gandalf didn't 'send him on a quest which begs the question did he choose the wrong hobbit.

Again nicely done.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That has nothing to do with the thread since Gandalf didn't give Bilbo the ring to destroy it. Bilbo is some easily impressionable never been on adventure hobbit. No crap does Gandalf leave an impression but Gandalf didn't 'send him on a quest which begs the question did he choose the wrong hobbit.

Again nicely done.

Oh my. Repeat: Gandalf did have the wisdom to pick Bildo for the journey, despite every outward appearance telling us that Bildo is not some brave and capable adventurer . If you knew The Hobbit, you'd know Bildo was the right choice.

Same as if you paid attention in the LoTR films, you'd know that Frodo was the right choice, giving the options.

Just stop talking out of ignorance and let the learned men deal with the topic. Besides, you already copied me and went with Gandalf as your pick. What else have you to say? Nothing.

Originally posted by Robtard
Oh my. Repeat: Gandalf did have the wisdom to pick Bildo for the journey, despite every outward appearance telling us that Bildo is not some brave and capable adventurer . If you knew The Hobbit, you'd know Bildo was the right choice.

Same as if you paid attention in the LoTR films, you'd know that Frodo was the right choice, giving the options.

Just stop talking out of ignorance and let the learned men deal with the topic. Besides, you already copied me and went with Gandalf as your pick. What else have you to say? Nothing. Yes, Bilbo was the right choice for the Hobbit but was Frodo the right choice for the ring destruction ? He failed. Things ended up working out but you said Bilbo is by far and away better with the ring than Frodo. Gandalf's plan was due to a huge element of luck and like I said frodo failed when it was time to cast it in the lava.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, Bilbo was the right choice for the Hobbit but was Frodo the right choice for the ring destruction ? He failed. Things ended up working out but you said Bilbo is by far and away better with the ring than Frodo. Gandalf's plan was due to a huge element of luck and like I said frodo failed when it was time to cast it in the lava.

The **** are you rambling about?

Bildo was a wise choice for the journey he went on, despite outward appearances. He proved himself.

Frodo was the wisest choice for his journey, giving anyone else would have likely succumbed to the ring long before reaching Mt. Doom.

Really, what can't you follow? Are you trying desperately to um-pick Gandalf now through claims made from Tolkien ignorance?

Gandalf didn't realize that an army of giant Eagles could have saved thousands of lives, national infrastructure, and like 2 1/2 books worth of paper. He also dropped the ball by not telling everyone that a Balrog lived in Moria and instead "let the Ringbearer decide." That's pertinent information that should have been discussed back in Rivendell.

Originally posted by Robtard
The **** are you rambling about?

Bildo was a wise choice for the journey he went on, despite outward appearances. He proved himself.

Frodo was the wisest choice for his journey, giving anyone else would have likely succumbed to the ring long before reaching Mt. Doom.

Really, what can't you follow? Are you trying desperately to um-pick Gandalf now through claims made from Tolkien ignorance? If Bilbo didn't give into the ring in 60 plus years why wouldn't he be the best choice ? Frodo gave into the ring so his plan failed. You basically shat all over Gandalf's wisdom when he already had the perfect choice by putting failure Frodo into the game. The same idiot who trusted Gollum over his own friend. Yeah, great pick Gandy.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If Bilbo didn't give into the ring in 60 plus years why wouldn't he be the best choice ? Frodo gave into the ring so his plan failed. You basically shat all over Gandalf's wisdom when he already had the perfect choice by putting failure Frodo into the game. The same idiot who trusted Gollum over his own friend. Yeah, great pick Gandy.

LoL, more basic Tolkien lore I have to explain to you. Okay, fine, Quab.

At the time of Fellowship of The Ring, Bildo was over a hundred years old and the ring after 60ish years of ownership had started taking its toll on him. He says as much to Gandalf "feeling stretched out and thin". He literally was not physically nor mentally fit to make a tremendously arduous trip.

So that is why you fail yet again, you don't know the basics and argue out of ignorance.

Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, more basic Tolkien lore I have to explain to you. Okay, fine, Quab.

At the time of Fellowship of The Ring, Bildo was over a hundred years old and the ring after 60ish years of ownership had started taking its toll on him. He says as much to Gandalf "feeling stretched out and thin". He literally was not physically nor mentally fit to make a tremendously arduous trip.

So that is why you fail yet again, you don't know the basics and argue out of ignorance. The ring slowed down his aging. So yes he could have made the trip. Frodo was also captured and released and survived by mere luck so don't act like Frodo was this physical specimen. The ring wasn't given to someone who was a powerful or physical specimen it was given due to not letting the ring overtake your willpower. Frodo failed. Gandy's plan failed. You failed.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The ring slowed down his aging. So yes he could have made the trip. Frodo was also captured and released and survived by mere luck so don't act like Frodo was this physical specimen. The ring wasn't given to someone who was a powerful or physical specimen it was given due to not letting the ring overtake your willpower. Frodo failed. Gandy's plan failed. You failed.

No, he couldn't have, as it still affected Bildo negatively. Did you not pay attention in the film? I even quoted a line for you. He was tired and worn and mentally not tip-top due to 60ish years of owning the One Ring. Granted, Bildo could probably still kick your pansy 121lbs ass, but that's not saying much.

You swung from my nuts and copied me with Gandalf being the wises here; it's right here in this thread. LoL, you nut-swinger.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, he couldn't have, as it still affected Bildo negatively. Did you not pay attention in the film? I even quoted a line for you. He was tired and worn and mentally not tip-top due to 60ish years of owning the One Ring. Granted, Bildo could probably still kick your pansy 121lbs ass, but that's not saying much.

You swung from my nuts and copied me with Gandalf being the wises here; it's right here in this thread. LoL, you nut-swinger. He still handled the ring by far better than Frodo who succumbed in far less time. Frodo failed yet you think Gandalf was awesome for making the wrong choice. Wow. I mean you sure are biased.

The more I think about it and the lack of arguments for Gandalf besides myself I am unsure now. You can't even form an argument and omgchos's is basically hyperbole from the books.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He still handled the ring by far better than Frodo who succumbed in far less time. Frodo failed yet you think Gandalf was awesome for making the wrong choice. Wow. I mean you sure are biased.

The more I think about it and the lack of arguments for Gandalf besides myself I am unsure now. You can't even form an argument and omgchos's is basically hyperbole from the books.

BASIC TOLKIEN LORE and it's already been explained to you: Frodo succumbed while in Mt. Doom, where the ring and Sauron were most powerful.

You had no argument, you nut-swung, nut-swinger.

Quan went from being the biggest ***** in the comic vs. forum to being the biggest ***** in this forum. Atleast he's not riding Thanos' nutsack in here.

Originally posted by Robtard
BASIC TOLKIEN LORE and it's already been explained to you: Frodo succumbed while in Mt. Doom, where the ring and Sauron were most powerful.

You had no argument, you nut-swung, nut-swinger. Yes, Frodo succumbed on the one yard line what difference does it make ? The guy failed. Gandalf picked a loser. Yes, I do. Albus was far more effective in his planning than Gandalf. The difference is Gandalf was up against Sauron's forces and an army. That's why I give him the nod but Albus was on point even in death.

So you still agree with my initial assessment that Gandalf is wisest here; which you copied. Good, nut-swinger.

Originally posted by Robtard
So you still agree with my initial assessment that Gandalf is wisest here; which you copied. Good, nut-swinger. I agreed before you posted but when I asked you why you couldn't give me one reason. That's why you are a fanboy you roll with who you like more and are unable to answer the simplest of questions.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I agreed before you posted but when I asked you why you couldn't give me one reason. That's why you are a fanboy you roll with who you like more and are unable to answer the simplest of questions.

Oh, more of this "I totally believed Gandalf wins here, I just waited for you to say it first and and waited until you and others gave reasons" assclownery. Just stop.

Except I gave reasons you lying queer, they're in the thread. I had to belittle you until you finally voiced reworded thoughts from others.

Originally posted by Robtard
Oh, more of this "I totally believed Gandalf wins here, I just waited for you to say it first and and waited until you and others gave reasons" assclownery. Just stop.

Except I gave reasons you lying queer, they're in the thread. I had to belittle you until you finally voiced reworded thoughts from others. I didn't copy anyone's reasoning. I gave my own and I definitely exposed critical flaws in Gandalf's game. You want to talk about Bilbo and the ring which has nothing to do with Gandalf's wisdom.

Gandalf > Yoda > Dumbledore

Surprised Yoda is getting no love here.

Because he's not wise.

Originally posted by The Silent Hero
Gandalf > Yoda > Dumbledore

Surprised Yoda is getting no love here. How is Yoda more wiser than Dumbledore ?

Originally posted by The Silent Hero
Gandalf > Yoda > Dumbledore

Surprised Yoda is getting no love here. Because he is not as wise as the other two.

Yoda is a distant 3rd.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Gandalf didn't realize that an army of giant Eagles could have saved thousands of lives, national infrastructure, and like 2 1/2 books worth of paper. He also dropped the ball by not telling everyone that a Balrog lived in Moria and instead "let the Ringbearer decide." That's pertinent information that should have been discussed back in Rivendell.
He didnt know it was there. That was saruman poking fun at him.

Saruman was intentionally forcing them into moria or the gap of rohan. Either was they were screwed.

It wasnt a statement when he said "you know what they awoke in the darkness of kazad dum?" twas a question. If we go by the books all he knew was that something drove the orcs out and they called it durins bane.

Movie wise even saruman only refered to it as shadow and flame. Tho saruman appeared to have an artists rendering of the rough shape of a balrog with a couple of eyes in the middle.

Also since apperently Balin had established himself near the east gate, gandalf had every reason to think that whatever it was may not be a threat anymore.

His ultimate decision was to let the good instincts of Frodo make his decision for him. He even states his wonderment at how amazing and surprising he finds the hobbits.

Also as to the eagles thing, they came of their own free will because they wanted to help. The army of eagles was not at gandalfs beck and call. He did the king a solid once and he helps out from time to time. You really think that the eagles wanted to go anywhere near mordor? They came at a moment of need. They arent taxis.

Originally posted by juggerman
Yoda is a distant 3rd. yeah.

Originally posted by omgchos
He didnt know it was there. That was saruman poking fun at him.

Saruman was intentionally forcing them into moria or the gap of rohan. Either was they were screwed.

It wasnt a statement when he said "you know what they awoke in the darkness of kazad dum?" twas a question. If we go by the books all he knew was that something drove the orcs out and they called it durins bane.

Movie wise even saruman only refered to it as shadow and flame. Tho saruman appeared to have an artists rendering of the rough shape of a balrog with a couple of eyes in the middle.

Also since apperently Balin had established himself near the east gate, gandalf had every reason to think that whatever it was may not be a threat anymore.

His ultimate decision was to let the good instincts of Frodo make his decision for him. He even states his wonderment at how amazing and surprising he finds the hobbits.

Also as to the eagles thing, they came of their own free will because they wanted to help. The army of eagles was not at gandalfs beck and call. He did the king a solid once and he helps out from time to time. You really think that the eagles wanted to go anywhere near mordor? They came at a moment of need. They arent taxis. Yeah, no. When you yourself are more willing to risk the perilous mountain pass, and yell out "NO!" in the middle of a killer snowstorm when someone says to turn back--you know damn well that there's some seriously dangerous shit going on in that mine.

Discussing with the group-- prior to leaving Rivendell-- that there's something so f*cking terrifying that even the ancient wizard doesn't want to go near it, is only rational. Gandalf, in all his wisdom, decided against chipping in his valued opinion, and decided against revealing pertinent information. That's not wise.


And the eagle thing is a cop out. They're willing to rescue a bunch of pissant Dwarves from some Orcs, and they're willing to rescue Gandalf from Saruman, and they're willing to fight the Nazgul over the gates of Mordor in the last-ditch effort to stop Sauron... but they're not willing to fly the One Ring to Mount Doom in order to stop Sauron? Everyone loses Wisdom points for this one-- neither Gandalf, Elrond, Bilbo, Gloin, Aragorn, or anyone else decided to pipe up and say "Hey! Do you guys want to at least ask the Eagles?"


You know... makes sense.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And the eagle thing is a cop out. They're willing to rescue a bunch of pissant Dwarves from some Orcs, and they're willing to rescue Gandalf from Saruman, and they're willing to fight the Nazgul over the gates of Mordor in the last-ditch effort to stop Sauron... but they're not willing to fly the One Ring to Mount Doom in order to stop Sauron? Everyone loses Wisdom points for this one-- neither Gandalf, Elrond, Bilbo, Gloin, Aragorn, or anyone else decided to pipe up and say "Hey! Do you guys want to at least ask the Eagles?"


The books do a great job of explaining that. They wished to remain neutral in that war but owed a debt to Gandalf and were friends with Gandalf. They were snobs.

How old is each member of this list?

Gandalf no question.

my response is Yoda however.....simply because he's Yoda.

Dumbledore is by far the youngest at under 200 years old.
Yoda is like 900 years old i think.
Gandolf could be in the thousands maybe millions?

As a Maia, Gandalf's been around for about.. 36,000 years, IRC. As an Ainu he existed before creation, so... he's timeless.


Originally posted by dadudemon
The books do a great job of explaining that. They wished to remain neutral in that war but owed a debt to Gandalf and were friends with Gandalf. They were snobs. I wish that was expanded on in the books too. Why were some races willing to stay neutral? It was pretty clear Sauron wanted a war of global extermination/enslavement. Why would Manwe's animals be okay with that. Or the Ents. Or f*cking Rohan. Theoden considering not riding to Gondor's aid. Once they're gone, you're next, *******.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
Atleast he's not riding Thanos' nutsack in here.
I wouldn't be too sure since the next Avengers movie is coming out in a few years and Thanos supposedly stars in it.

Speaking of Yoda, something always bugged me about the end of ROTS.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah, no. When you yourself are more willing to risk the perilous mountain pass, and yell out "NO!" in the middle of a killer snowstorm when someone says to turn back--you know damn well that there's some seriously dangerous shit going on in that mine.

Discussing with the group-- prior to leaving Rivendell-- that there's something so f*cking terrifying that even the ancient wizard doesn't want to go near it, is only rational. Gandalf, in all his wisdom, decided against chipping in his valued opinion, and decided against revealing pertinent information. That's not wise.


And the eagle thing is a cop out. They're willing to rescue a bunch of pissant Dwarves from some Orcs, and they're willing to rescue Gandalf from Saruman, and they're willing to fight the Nazgul over the gates of Mordor in the last-ditch effort to stop Sauron... but they're not willing to fly the One Ring to Mount Doom in order to stop Sauron? Everyone loses Wisdom points for this one-- neither Gandalf, Elrond, Bilbo, Gloin, Aragorn, or anyone else decided to pipe up and say "Hey! Do you guys want to at least ask the Eagles?"


You know... makes sense.

Well, nobody really knew what happened to Balin's colony in Moria. For all Gandalf knew, the dwarves may still have held a settlement. He probably didn't want to unnecessarily scare the others - Gandalf presumed he would either find dwarves or that the Fellowship would traverse Mora undetected by Goblins (which they almost did).

As for the second point, I don't think there were enough eagles to launch an aerial mission to throw the Ring into Mount Doom. The Nazgul on Fell Beasts would have been there, and not to mention tens of thousands of Orcs would have shot them down.

I just think the Eagles are a mix of inherently neutral and massive superiority complex - they only help when they see the lesser goodly races in deep sh1t.

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Speaking of Yoda, something always bugged me about the end of ROTS. Lol.


Originally posted by -kV-
Well, nobody really knew what happened to Balin's colony in Moria. For all Gandalf knew, the dwarves may still have held a settlement. He probably didn't want to unnecessarily scare the others - Gandalf presumed he would either find dwarves or that the Fellowship would traverse Mora undetected by Goblins (which they almost did).

As for the second point, I don't think there were enough eagles to launch an aerial mission to throw the Ring into Mount Doom. The Nazgul on Fell Beasts would have been there, and not to mention tens of thousands of Orcs would have shot them down.

I just think the Eagles are a mix of inherently neutral and massive superiority complex - they only help when they see the lesser goodly races in deep sh1t. It's not the point. A wise person would discuss why he doesn't want to. Gimli was propping up the idea, and Gandalf was just making a scared face and saying "No." A wise man will explain why. He won't leave the decision up to the inexperienced, ignorant, sheltered, Hobbit. It wasn't a wise decision, not by a long shot.

And you don't need an aerial assault to destroy the Ring, you just need a small group to sneak in--say... 9. Gather every Eagle, fly above arrow-height. They're clearly capable and willing to take on the Winged Beasts. And when the fate of the entire world hangs in the balance, you don't sit on the sidelines waiting for the last minute.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's not the point. A wise person would discuss why he doesn't want to. Gimli was propping up the idea, and Gandalf was just making a scared face and saying "No." A wise man will explain why. He won't leave the decision up to the inexperienced, ignorant, sheltered, Hobbit. It wasn't a wise decision, not by a long shot.

And you don't need an aerial assault to destroy the Ring, you just need a small group to sneak in--say... 9. Gather every Eagle, fly above arrow-height. They're clearly capable and willing to take on the Winged Beasts. And when the fate of the entire world hangs in the balance, you don't sit on the sidelines waiting for the last minute.

Exactly, Gandalf made it very evident that he was hesitant to risk going into the Mines. He didn't need to say, "Well...an 18 foot fire demon from the ancient world exists somewhere deep inside there". What's the point of saying that, when he knew there was a possibility of friendly dwarves or a possibility of sneaking through Moria without attracting any attention. He conveyed to the Fellowship that Moria was treacherous, and he feared going into the Mines, and that was sufficient.

And Gandalf is the fatalistic type. According to him, Frodo was meant to have the Ring, and since he (Gandalf) was undecided, he believed it was the Ring-Bearer's right to choose. And Frodo chose Moria. Ultimately, Durin's Bane was defeated, Gandalf was resurrected into a more powerful form, the Fellowship started to break (a blessing in disguise)...so the decision paid off lol.

The Eagles wouldn't have entered undetected. Sauron would have felt/seen them coming well in advance and would have prepared a defense. And even then, one Eagle would have needed to descend to be over Mount Doom to drop the ring. It would have been in arrow range. Basically, there was never any way the Eagles could have just done the mission solo from the get-go. And as for the Eagles' nature, that's what they are man...they like to be deus ex machinas. Shrug.

Fatalism and vague warnings =/= wisdom. It equals tight-lipped optimism. Saying "it all worked out in the end" (thankfully) doesn't excuse Gandalf from not speaking up in the first place. There was no practical need to withhold information.


And the Eagles can be detected and sensed by Sauron, but a Hobbit carrying the One Ring escapes his gaze--even when his gaze falls directly on that hobbit at one point? And no... there was no arrow range the Eagles needed to be in. That mountain is gigantic. Unless there's anti-grav Orcs flying above the top, the Eagles are safe. And again, it's not that the Eagles weren't used, it was that they weren't asked. They weren't even asked to fly them over the mountains--the place Gandalf was afraid of.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Lol.


Seriously, why did Yoda split from Obi Wan and Face Sidious alone? He and Obi were both right there on the same planet as Sidious, yet Yoda thought it better to face Sidious alone and send Obi Wan across the galaxy to face Vader.


Dumb move.

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Seriously, why did Yoda split from Obi Wan and Face Sidious alone? He and Obi were both right there on the same planet as Sidious, yet Yoda thought it better to face Sidious alone and send Obi Wan across the galaxy to face Vader.


Dumb move.


Yoda was being arrogant and petty. He had to learn a hard lesson and he pretty much admits his decision and efforts were a failure. For me, it was just showing, metaphorically, that the Jedi really were too arrogant and assumed too much power. Sidious and co were right about the Jedi.


So, yes, I see Yoda as the lowest, by far, in this thread. Yoda is no better than a Yogi, if we are to be honest. Sure, Yogi's are smart but not transcendentally wise like Gandalf.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I wouldn't be too sure since the next Avengers movie is coming out in a few years and Thanos supposedly stars in it.

Thought it was going to be the Wreaking Crew unless that has been squashed.

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Seriously, why did Yoda split from Obi Wan and Face Sidious alone? He and Obi were both right there on the same planet as Sidious, yet Yoda thought it better to face Sidious alone and send Obi Wan across the galaxy to face Vader.


Dumb move. He also couldn't sense (or see) that Anakin was pretty upset at "someone" he was afraid to lose. He was so stupid that he couldn't figure out Anakin was obsessed with Padme, and he gave him some useless platitude to console him. PT Yoda was one of many retarded characters.

Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Seriously, why did Yoda split from Obi Wan and Face Sidious alone? He and Obi were both right there on the same planet as Sidious, yet Yoda thought it better to face Sidious alone and send Obi Wan across the galaxy to face Vader.


Dumb move.

Dude, I brought that up a few years ago in the Star Wars forum, they came after me like a pack of rabid fanboys.

Their main response was that Obi Wan would "get in the way", no proof provided, but I got the impression it was a fact.

The other criticism I made was the fight scene b/w Obi Wan and Anakin when they had trouble balancing/walking across the beams. I said that wasn't good choreography or Jedi Master-like (Luke Skywalker didn't have trouble with balance in OT, neither do any Jedi in the EU, Cinematics). The response I got was... not sure what it was, but somehow my views were invalid.

If anyone wants some entertainment, you know where to go, the force is strong there.

Originally posted by Placidity
Dude, I brought that up a few years ago in the Star Wars forum, they came after me like a pack of rabid fanboys. We don't do that over there anymore. The jerks are gone and the remnant are castrated.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Fatalism and vague warnings =/= wisdom. It equals tight-lipped optimism. Saying "it all worked out in the end" (thankfully) doesn't excuse Gandalf from not speaking up in the first place. There was no practical need to withhold information.

All I can say is that he made the danger apparent, without having to say the obvious. Besides, it's not like the Fellowship (with the exception of the Hobbits maybe) didn't know of Durin's Bane and the fact that Moria had long been infested with Goblins, and only recently recolonized by Balin and company. Point being, they all knew Moria was dangerous, and Gandalf didn't have to mention the Balrog. It would have just unnecessarily scared the Fellowship, since Gandalf knew they could very well meet dwarves or avoid anyone altogether in the Mines. That's all from me.




Those are just some reasons that I have thought of as to why the Eagles weren't asked/used. Some others could be that:

* Eagles, because they are such a powerful race, may be tempted by the Ring - Gwaihir might take the Ring for himself. The Hobbits were chosen because they had special resilience to the Ring's power, and even then, Frodo claimed the Ring for himself at the end. It's simply too risky to place the Ring in the Eagles' "claws."

* Eagles have a similar 'policy' like that of the Istari - forbidden to directly counter Sauron, and only assist when the primary races of Middle Earth need it. Furthermore, they are technically a more neutral race, and so their involvement would be even lesser than that of the Istari. The Eagles would have never agreed to the mission, even if asked.

* The whole point of the Fellowship was to be a covert mission - even if Sauron knew the Ring was found and in the hands of a Hobbit, he didn't have any information on its whereabouts. Eagles flying the Ring to Mordor would have been bound to draw attention.
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As for Star Wars, I didn't understand why Yoda and Obi-Wan couldn't have just gone to Mustafar together and killed Vader. Who cares if Sidious knew? He would have essentially 'lost.'

"Scaring" the Fellowship shouldn't even have been a phrase going through Gandalf's mind (I'm sure it wasn't). Scaring the Hobbits maybe, but not the rest. And given Gandalf's personal praise for Hobbits' bravery and resilience, their recent showing of standing up to the Nazgul, and the very nature of their quest... unwillingness to "scare" them isn't even on the table. There was no indication that anyone besides Gandalf knew what was going on inside Moria. And he still decided to withhold important information, insist they go the ostensibly hard way 'round (without telling them why), and leave the vital decision to go forward or turn back to an unknowing Hobbit--in the middle of a killer storm. This route of theirs and the options available should have been discussed ad nauseam and to great detail in Rivendell. Everybody, but Gandalf especially, displayed a distinct lack of wisdom.


The Eagle thing is all just speculation from fans at this point. The issue was never discussed in the film, nor I think in the novels. It's a plot hole.

And the PT is nothing but one giant plot hole, so no surprises there.


Wisdom point being: Dumbledore>>Gandalf>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yoda.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
"Scaring" the Fellowship shouldn't even have been a phrase going through Gandalf's mind (I'm sure it wasn't). Scaring the Hobbits maybe, but not the rest. And given Gandalf's personal praise for Hobbits' bravery and resilience, their recent showing of standing up to the Nazgul, and the very nature of their quest... unwillingness to "scare" them isn't even on the table. There was no indication that anyone besides Gandalf knew what was going on inside Moria. And he still decided to withhold important information, insist they go the ostensibly hard way 'round (without telling them why), and leave the vital decision to go forward or turn back to an unknowing Hobbit--in the middle of a killer storm. This route of theirs and the options available should have been discussed ad nauseam and to great detail in Rivendell. Everybody, but Gandalf especially, displayed a distinct lack of wisdom.

Hmm, yeah I see your point in why he wouldn't tell them out of not scaring them.

Still, the movie didn't want to spoil to the audience that the "shadow and flame" Saruman is talking about is an 18 foot fire demon from the ancient world. It was all done for dramatic purpose. Everyone in the books knew of the Balrog (and in the books they recognize it upon sight). It's evident in the films that everyone in the party, except for perhaps the Hobbits, would have known of Durin's Bane (definitely Gandalf, Gimli, and Legolas for sure). Boromir only asks, "What is this new devilry?" later on because the Fellowship (sans Gandalf) isn't familiar with what a Balrog physically looks like. Everyone knew the danger of Moria beforehand.

And the route was discussed prior. That voice over of Gandalf in the "Ring Moves South" sequence indicates they had a planned path. There was no need for extended discussion - there really wasn't any other fallback options except for the Pass of Caradhras. In the end, each option was equally bad - continue forward in the blizzard, go back and head south towards Saruman, or go subterranean though Moria. Boromir wanted one option, Gimli the other. In the end, he left the option to Frodo because he trusted that his decision will ultimately work out - and also the movie did it for thematic element (since in the books Aragorn and Gandalf discuss the decision).

Ultimately, my entire point here is that even though Gandalf doesn't directly mention the Balrog in the blizzard, Frodo knew well enough that Moria was a dangerous place. Considering his monumental role as a whole in directing Sauron's downfall, I think Gandalf more than makes up for this blip.



Galadriel: "Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life."



I don't think it's far to deduct wisdom points from Gandalf due to a plot hole. Even then, the reason why the Eagles weren't asked could be explained logically through speculation.



Why would you say Dumbledore is "> >" than Gandalf in wisdom? Dumbledore's decision to isolate himself from Harry in OOTP completely backfired and ultimately resulted in Sirius's death , and nearly got Harry and co. killed. Dumbledore even admits his mistake.

Except Gimli. And everyone. Only Gandalf gave any indication that shit was serious in those mines. The movie doesn't get a free pass just because important things may have happened off-screen. If it doesn't show it, or show the characters acknowledging it, then it didn't happen. Speculation and wishful thinking from the fans doesn't change that. Gandalf dropped the ball about Moria, everyone dropped the ball about asking the Eagles, and Gandalf is not the ultra wise superman simply because he looks impressive and things turned out alright in the end. He also noted Pippin's excitement about the Palantir, but instead of hiding it away somewhere, or keeping it under tighter guard, he simply keeps out where anyone can see it. Not wise.

He sounds wise. He looks wise. But he doesn't do wise things. He's no more impressive than Aragorn.


Yes it is fair, because it's never explained. It's why Yoda can be considered nearly retarded. Lousy writing, editing, and story turned him from a semi-wise guy in the OT, to a total dumbass in the PT.


And Dumbledore>> Gandalf because Dumbledore has actually been shown to be wise. Dumbledore's biggest f*ck-up was the OotP example, but beyond that he's been consistently shown to have his shit together, knows what he's doing, and has amazing foresight. He's just been more impressive in those regards than Gandalf. And, at least until Michael Gambon butchered the character, he also was far less prone to anger or temper.

LMVtNEZUqFY#!

lol

Originally posted by juggerman
Dumbledore is by far the youngest at under 200 years old.
Yoda is like 900 years old i think.
Gandolf could be in the thousands maybe millions?

Gandalf walked in Arda around the time it came to be. Somewhere around 20,000 years ago.

Hard decision but it has to be Gandalf far off, he is the oldest out of them all, but you don't have be the oldest to be the wisest do you!?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Except Gimli. And everyone. Only Gandalf gave any indication that shit was serious in those mines. The movie doesn't get a free pass just because important things may have happened off-screen. If it doesn't show it, or show the characters acknowledging it, then it didn't happen. Speculation and wishful thinking from the fans doesn't change that. Gandalf dropped the ball about Moria

Saruman says, "The Dwarves delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in darkness of Khazad-Dum. Shadow and flame." The movie transcript reads, and the film depicts, that "Legolas's eyes show only fear - he clearly knows what the beast is." Gandalf knew of Durin's Bane. Legolas knew of Durin's Bane. Gimli the dwarf knew of Durin's Bane. Point being, members of the Fellowship knew of the Balrog and/or Moria was dangerous. Gandalf, in his hesitance to enter the Mines, emphasized that danger to everyone. Therefore, even though Gandalf didn't mention the Balrog on the pass, I wouldn't go so far as to call it "dropping the ball."

Considering the situation they were in during the blizzard, with Boromir saying "this will be death of the Hobbits" if they continued on the pass, they only had two options: go south towards Saruman and certain danger or face uncertainty in Moria. And if not for the Watcher in the Water, they wouldn't have even continued forward once they saw the bodies.




They didn't drop the ball on the Eagles. If we're only using movie scenes to explain why things didn't occur, then the reason they couldn't ask the Eagles was because the messenger Moth was nowhere to be seen. Gandalf could only contact Gwaihir because the Moth came to him. The Moth didn't pop up during the Council, ergo nobody could contact the Eagles.

And this is just nitpicking. Gandalf couldn't just hide the Palantir elsewhere in the castle where somebody else could stumble upon it. And he wouldn't trust others to look after something that dangerous and tempting. The safest place for the Palantir was right next to Gandalf, where even if it was taken from him, he would know instantly.




If Gandalf loses major wisdom points because of Moria and Palantir, Dumbledore completely dropped the ball in OOTP. That was a terrible mistake that's much worse than Gandalf's mistakes.

Care to provide examples where Dumbledore demonstrates greater feats of wisdom than Gandalf?

I've got to go with Albus Dumbledore. He clearly understands the wisdom that a man can still learn, even when it seems that he knows everything. He did say that he made mistakes - just that his mistakes were rather disastrous because they were few and far between. A wise man knows that he is not infallible.

He was clever enough to make the deal with Snape when he made the whoopsie with the Resurrection stone, a deal that would allow Snape first-hand access to the mind of a maniac.

I agree he made a big mistake when he kept Harry away from him when Harry went into CAPSLOCK! OF RAGE state. But it was a wise philosophy that helped make up his mind...

Gandalf was a little too self-assured for my taste - the books didn't show him as smug.

Yoda - well, I don't believe he belongs in the list. Maybe another LotR character - like Elrond?

Still wanna go with Gandalf on this one.

By far his biggest mistake though was not realizing Bilbo's ring was the One Ring. But I'd argue that while Dumbledore never had such a PIS mistake he had far more.

Originally posted by ares834
Still wanna go with Gandalf on this one.

By far his biggest mistake though was not realizing Bilbo's ring was the One Ring. But I'd argue that while Dumbledore never had such a PIS mistake he had far more.

Im not sure he didn't notice. Before it can be said for sure we will have to wait for one of the next two movies. In the scene that Bilbo is putting the ring in his pocket Gandalf gives him this "im on to you Hobbit" look. It looked like he knew what Bilbo had but didn't want to tell everyone else.

Oh, Gandalf realizes he has a ring right away. The problem is he doesn't realize or even seemingly suspect it's the One Ring for sixty years.

If the novel is followed, it takes Gandalf 60 years to suspect it's the One Ring, and another 17 years to confirm it. Call him wise or whatever, but muthaf*cka works slow.

The Eagles thing isn't even necessarily PIS, as there are reasons why it would have been a bad idea.

Even if you want to argue that it's PIS, though, characters can't be held accountable for that.

Gandalf is the wisest of the ones I've seen, imo.

The books may explain why the Eagles were never even asked (I don't remember), but the movie doesn't. It's a plot hole and PIS.

Even in the movies, didn't Gandalf say that the entire point of their mission was to keep the ring out of Sauron's view.

Flying up to the mountain would have been a pretty big "LOOK AT WHO HAS THE ****ING RING *****!" moment.

At least from what I recall.

That was the idea put forward in FotR. And that would have been fine if not for:

Sauron putting his gaze directly on Frodo, who's weak and exhausted with the Ring around his neck and not batting a fiery eyelash, instead turning his gaze to the extremely suspicious small brigade of all his enemies in one place. That scene has always bothered me, kickass though it be.

Frankly, a convocation of giant killer eagles (who can fly easily out of arrow range--I don't why people think otherwise), and who have no problem taking on Nazgul and their Beasts, seems like a pretty straightforward and bulletproof approach. Hell, put Legolas on one of them, he could probably take out a few of the Beasts himself up there. Given that Sauron's only way of stopping a Hobbit at the mountain is to recall the Nazgul ASAP, there doesn't seem to be much he can do (or see, stupidly enough).



I just want to put it out there: every character present-- including Gandalf, but mainly Aragorn, (and excepting Gimli)-- dropped the ball by not hanging on to the unstoppable ghost army. One small exchange where the Dead King refuses to help Aragorn any further--after being asked to do so-- would have been fine, but why nobody except the Dwarf decided to pipe up and suggest that they be sent on one final mission to clear out Mordor is kinda odd. So... wisdom points for Gimli WTF?

What would stop Sauron putting his armies at the entrance to Mount Doom? I mean, didn't they have to go through that small opening to get inside so they could destroy the ring?

I honestly thought Aragorn had to release them, as he had given them his word, AND at that point, hadn't decided to attack Mordor yet.

It's an active volcano, it's has an opening up top. The entrance and footwalk were there for all the people who couldn't fly over it.

Aragorn did have to release them, but we're never told the specifications. Did he agree to release them after they "fight for (him)" once, twice, or whenever? They never told us. And regardless of whether you're going to attack Mordor, it should be obvious that emptying that land of every Orc and Troll would really, really help, one way or another.

The movie makes it obvious that if Aragorn didn't release the Army of the Dead, he would be breaking his own word as a King to hold their oaths fulfilled. The Dead agreed to fight for him - they fought for him, and reclaimed their honor by saving Minas Tirith. As -Pr- mentioned, Aragorn also hadn't planned on marching to the Black Gates at that moment, so he couldn't just tell the Dead, "Wait a minute, before we're done, we gotta march on Mordor."

Yeah.


But the movie forgot to include an explanation as to why he couldn't have them sweep through Mordor. They took the time to board the ships, sail up the river, and then swept through Minas Tirith in minutes. Why couldn't they go through Mordor? What rush were they in? Why didn't Aragorn try to tell them to do that?


Keep in mind I don't want you to answer these questions, I want the movie to. The movie doesn't explain something that's going on, and leaves us to justify it for instead. Thus the movie has a plot hole. Plain and simple.

Originally posted by Kazenji
Thought it was going to be the Wreaking Crew unless that has been squashed.
That's probably Thor. Not the Avengers.

Gandalf wins this easily. He evolved into a higher state after hundreds if not a few thousand years of existence of perceiving the the world around him as threatened. He became Gandalf the White.

Yoda saw such a dark force and challenged the source straight on....just like Gandalf and also failed. Though he retreated and retired to a reclusive planet awaiting a champion. Gandalf fought back.

Gandalf evolved and kept fighting. He wins.

Dumbledore with all his spells and possessions still got killed by the enemy upon their first assault on his base. He was an extreme pacifist. And relied on the children to avenge his vision.

1. Gandalf.
2. Yoda.
3. Dumbledore.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Gandalf wins this easily. He evolved into a higher state after hundreds if not a few thousand years of existence of perceiving the the world around him as threatened. He became Gandalf the White.

Yoda saw such a dark force and challenged the source straight on....just like Gandalf and also failed. Though he retreated and retired to a reclusive planet awaiting a champion. Gandalf fought back.

Gandalf evolved and kept fighting. He wins.

Dumbledore with all his spells and possessions still got killed by the enemy upon their first assault on his base. He was an extreme pacifist. And relied on the children to avenge his vision.

1. Gandalf.
2. Yoda.
3. Dumbledore. You're being way too harsh on Albus. And let's not forget in Return of the King Gandalf was just sitting there waiting to die. Let's not act like every decision he made was just spot on. The guy relied on his allies as well to save his ass. He also had the chance to come back from death so don't act like Albus had the same opportunity. Albus had to make sure events would play out despite his death.

Dumbledore chose his death and it worked to his side's benefit. Dumbledore knew Voldemort had to destroy his own Horcrux in Harry. Something even Voldemort himself was unaware of. Dumbledore also challenged Lord Voldemort so I wouldn't say he was an extreme pacifist. He wasn't just knuckling for a brawl but wouldn't back down from a fight against the darkest wizard ever in existence either.

Seriously, why are people even considering Yoda to be smart, let alone wise? He's one of the dumbest characters in the prequels, and even in the OT he's nothing special.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Seriously, why are people even considering Yoda to be smart, let alone wise? He's one of the dumbest characters in the prequels, and even in the OT he's nothing special. He wasn't dumb. He was pretty wise as well just not at these guys levels. I mean the guy also had to deal with a galactic power after he had been duped. None of these three are beyond being duped or fooled.

I don't know if you've seen the prequels, but Yoda was pretty effing retarded.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I don't know if you've seen the prequels, but Yoda was pretty effing retarded.

Lmao yea.

Premonitions?....premonitions you say

Grave danger I fear in his training... go ahead and train him them.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Grave danger I fear in his training... go ahead and train him them.

I know right.

Obiwan and yoda fail! Fck its you guys fault he lost his arm! Empire ends on such a downer, Luke gets his hand cut off, Han Solo gets frozen and taken away by boba fet..thats life a series of downers..

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Grave danger I fear in his training... go ahead and train him them.

"Always in motion is the future."

Originally posted by dadudemon
"Always in motion is the future." So let's risk it for absolutely no reason.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So let's risk it for absolutely no reason.

Well, except that it was the dying wish of probably the wisest Jedi of them all: Qui Gon. And Anakin was the Chosen One. Oh, and the fact that Kenobi promised his master his last dying wish. So, yeah, those are pretty much 3 good reasons.


And Yoda was right: tons and tons of bad things happened because of "Vader's" training. It just happened to work out, in the end.

Qui-Gon was a terrible Jedi. Stupid too. Who cares if he's "the Chosen One" when the leader of the Jedi himself predicts grave danger. There's taking a chance and then there's being convenient to the plot. And who cares what Kenobi promised his dumbass of a master. He never liked Anakin to begin with. Not to mention that the leader of the Jedi himself predicted grave danger in his training. That the audience knows it "worked out in the end" is pointless--Yoda didn't. But he still went forward for absolutely no good reason, other than the plot needed him to.


Plus I wouldn't call the rise of the Empire, the death of the Republic and Jedi, the destruction of Alderaan, and a galactic civil war to be "working out in the end." It's a self fulfilling prophecy that says the chosen one will correct all the mistakes that he himself was the cause of.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Qui-Gon was a terrible Jedi.

Excellent Jedi, actually.


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Stupid too.

More intelligent than any on the council, actually. I'd say that if Qui Gon had lived, Anakin would not have fallen to the dark side.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Who cares if he's "the Chosen One" when the leader of the Jedi himself predicts grave danger.

A leader who was wrong about...pretty much everything in the end. Oh, and Qui Gon ended up being right, in the end.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
There's taking a chance and then there's being convenient to the plot.

Well, since the story was already written in the precious OT, Lucas did not have much choice but to show Anakin fall to the darkside, now did he?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And who cares what Kenobi promised his dumbass of a master.

Obviously, both Anakin and Kenobi care...as did the Jedi Council as well as the Grandmaster.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He never liked Anakin to begin with.

"I will train him." in TPM and "I loved you like the a brother..." in RotS...yeah, he never liked him.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Not to mention that the leader of the Jedi himself predicted grave danger in his training.

Ohhhh...mysterious! We didn't even know that that would happen when we saw it! Oh, wait...we did. We know he falls to the dark side.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That the audience knows it "worked out in the end" is pointless--Yoda didn't.

Except that it is not pointless, even slightly. The entire story is a story to which we already knew the result. Anyone who knew anything about Star Wars before the work on the PT even started knew several things, including the ending:

1. Anakin was trained by Kenobi against Kenobi's better judgement.

2. Anakin fell to the dark side and become Vader.

3. Vader became the slave of the Emperor and did all sorts of bad things.


Why are you devastated that the PT covered those obvious facts? It is like...you're furious because someone said to go look at an orange picture and you're like, "WTF is this shit? This picture is orange! FFS! ORANGE! Well I never!"


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But he still went forward for absolutely no good reason, other than the plot needed him to.

Except for the following reasons which you obviously forgot about:

1. Qui Gon made Obi Wan promise, in his last dying breath, to train Anakin.

2. Obi Wan agreed to to do #1 in addition to believing Anakin really was the Chosen One.

3. The Council agreed to allow Kenobi train Anakin. Or did you forget about this part? "Agree with you, the Council does. Your apprentice, Skywalker will be."

You can't just hand wave extremely strong character motivations from Kenobi to train Anakin. You can pretend there was no plot reasons but fulfilling the dying wishes of a man you loved and admired is hardly "no reason." You PT hater, you.


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Plus I wouldn't call the rise of the Empire, the death of the Republic and Jedi, the destruction of Alderaan, and a galactic civil war to be "working out in the end."

Yeah, cause a Clone Wars that lasted years were hardly any less destructive. Amirite? awesome

So let us destroy your points:


1. Death of the Republic: Jedi Council's fault, the Emperor's Fault, and the Senate's fault. Not Anakin's.

2. Destruction of Alderaan: Grand Moff Tarkin's fault. In fact, Vader urged Leia to kind of...you know...cooperate.

3. Both Galactic Civil Wars (Clone Wars and the Rebellion) were the fault of the Emperor, not Vader. Oh, guess what? The person that perpetuated the Clone Wars and the destruction you talk of in the OT? Yeah...the Emperor...the man Vader eventually overthrew? Guess you forgot about one of the very best moments in the OT, didn't you?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's a self fulfilling prophecy that says the chosen one will correct all the mistakes that he himself was the cause of.

Correction: "that the Emperor was the cause of."

Kinda confused here Donut Man. It seems like you are defending the idea that Yoda was "wise" but then you say:

Originally posted by dadudemon
A leader who was wrong about...pretty much everything in the end.

Seems to me like if someone was wrong about "pretty much everything" they don't belong in the "wise" bracket.....

Originally posted by juggerman
Kinda confused here Donut Man. It seems like you are defending the idea that Yoda was "wise" but then you say:



Seems to me like if someone was wrong about "pretty much everything" they don't belong in the "wise" bracket.....

Yoda was wise...by our regular human standards. By decent Jedi standards? He seemed to be wrong about far too much... He seemed more "arrogant" in the PT and the nearly broken Yoda of the OT shows he learned some hard lessons.

So, yes, he was wise but he made too many decisions that later came out to be wrong. I believe he even admits to failure about at least one of his decisions.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I don't know if you've seen the prequels, but Yoda was pretty effing retarded. I don't think he was retarded by any means. Wise; definitely. Screwed up; definitely. But all of these guys have made mistakes but probably not as many wrong decisions as Yoda but still he's a wise character who went up against one the most Machiavellian characters of all time; Palpatine.

Oh God, I can't tell you how terrified I am of point-by-point posts, given my propensity for explanation.


Originally posted by dadudemon
1.) Excellent Jedi, actually.

2.) More intelligent than any on the council, actually. I'd say that if Qui Gon had lived, Anakin would not have fallen to the dark side.

3.) A leader who was wrong about...pretty much everything in the end. Oh, and Qui Gon ended up being right, in the end.

4.) Well, since the story was already written in the precious OT, Lucas did not have much choice but to show Anakin fall to the darkside, now did he?

5.) Obviously, both Anakin and Kenobi care...as did the Jedi Council as well as the Grandmaster.

6.) "I will train him." in TPM and "I loved you like the a brother..." in RotS...yeah, he never liked him.

7.) Ohhhh...mysterious! We didn't even know that that would happen when we saw it! Oh, wait...we did. We know he falls to the dark side. Alright, by your sentence-to-number here:

1.) and 2.) No, terrible. He made bad calls. He made nonsense calls. He completely lacked logic. He was just plain dumb. Poor Liam Neeson.

3.) Yoda was wrong about pretty much everything, you say? Glad you agree.

4.) Well, since Lucas wrote the screenplay, he actually did have a choice. He could have chosen not to have Yoda predicting "grave danger" in Anakin's training, seconds before giving the go-ahead for his training. It makes Yoda appear either stupid, or schizophrenic; something I doubt he's supposed to be. This is one of (many) reasons people say the writing/dialogue in these movies sucks.

5.) I meant from an audience perspective. Frankly, none of these characters are likable or relatable, so Obi-Wan (who is boring) making a promise to a dying Qui-Gon (who is boring and stupid) about training Anakin (who is insufferably annoying in that quasi-Leave it to Beaver way) to Yoda (who is stupid) is not something I care about--tugs on no heartstrings, and doesn't make Yoda's snap-haste decision to go against his own judgement believable as anything other than a plot contrivance.

6.) I was actually referring to Obi-Wan's attitude toward Anakin in TPM... but frankly he doesn't really seem to "like" Anakin in the other films either--more like annoyance, but fondness. I digress; for most of TPM, Obi-Wan didn't seem to care about Anakin--at least not until Qui-Gon guilted him in to a dying promise. "...another pathetic lifeform" for example, or "the boy is dangerous. They all sense it, why can't you?"--a line he spoke right next to Anakin BTW. Almost like he doesn't care if the kid overhears him badmouthing him.

7.) Not the point whether we know. It's that Yoda knew. Unless Yoda read the script, or was bribed by Palpatine or something, he had no good reason for allowing this kid to be trained. He's supposed to be wise and knowledgeable, but when it comes to heeding his own warning, he doesn't? And honestly, I would have been fine if he had changed his mind. But do a better scene! He literally goes from assured denial to acceptance in less than a minute. "Agree with (Anakin's training) I do not... grave danger I fear in his training!" But I guess since Obi-Wan just really wants to, it's okay. Gee Yoda, didn't take much convincing for you to do a complete 180, huh? The basic premise of refusal-to-acceptance is fine, but make the 900 year old Jedi Leader less susceptible to the equivalent of "Whatever, I do what I want!"


Originally posted by dadudemon
Except that it is not pointless, even slightly. The entire story is a story to which we already knew the result. Anyone who knew anything about Star Wars before the work on the PT even started knew several things, including the ending:

1. Anakin was trained by Kenobi against Kenobi's better judgement.

2. Anakin fell to the dark side and become Vader.

3. Vader became the slave of the Emperor and did all sorts of bad things.

Why are you devastated that the PT covered those obvious facts? It is like...you're furious because someone said to go look at an orange picture and you're like, "WTF is this shit? This picture is orange! FFS! ORANGE! Well I never!" You're not getting the difference between audience knowledge, and character knowledge. The characters in this prequel aren't supposed to know what going's happen. It's why the very nature of a prequel is a b*tch, because the audience already knows what's going to happen to many of the characters. But if a developer knows what they're doing, they can come up with really creative ways to advance the plot in the right direction while simultaneously investing the audience's emotions. Lucas wrote the plot advances in this film (Yoda's acceptance of Anakin's training) in a sloppy, "get it out of the way" manner.

You are someone who doesn't give two shits about emotion, tone, or pacing--it's why you look at all these moments in the film as mere steps in the path... obstacles that need to be covered with no regard as to how you cover them, so long as it gets done.



Originally posted by dadudemon
Except for the following reasons which you obviously forgot about:

1. Qui Gon made Obi Wan promise, in his last dying breath, to train Anakin.

2. Obi Wan agreed to to do #1 in addition to believing Anakin really was the Chosen One.

3. The Council agreed to allow Kenobi train Anakin. Or did you forget about this part? "Agree with you, the Council does. Your apprentice, Skywalker will be."

You can't just hand wave extremely strong character motivations from Kenobi to train Anakin. You can pretend there was no plot reasons but fulfilling the dying wishes of a man you loved and admired is hardly "no reason." You PT hater, you. They're not strong character motivations. They're just character motivations. We get no real sense that Obi-Wan is interested in Anakin until Qui-Gon dies. It's a bed-side conversion if you will, and it's last minute and shoehorned for convenience. Qui-Gon's request, and Obi-Wan's insistence should not take precedence over a prediction of grave danger. This is an ancient order of mystics whose lives revolve around prediction, prophecy, meditation, and apparently wisdom... yet their venerable leader disregards his own prediction of--and I'll say it again in italics--grave danger. For no other reason than because Obi-Wan insisted, and that Lucas needed it to be so. We're shown no conflict within Yoda, we're shown no agreement, bargaining, or pleading on Obi-Wan's part, and we're shown no reason as to why Yoda suddenly about-faced. I've pretty much just tautologged my earlier paragraph, but, hopefully 2x will help get it through. Essentially we're shown nothing of these characters' character--which is why we all often call them "wooden" "boring" or "one-dimensional".




Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, cause a Clone Wars that lasted years were hardly any less destructive. Amirite? awesome

So let us destroy your points:


1. Death of the Republic: Jedi Council's fault, the Emperor's Fault, and the Senate's fault. Not Anakin's.

2. Destruction of Alderaan: Grand Moff Tarkin's fault. In fact, Vader urged Leia to kind of...you know...cooperate.

3. Both Galactic Civil Wars (Clone Wars and the Rebellion) were the fault of the Emperor, not Vader. Oh, guess what? The person that perpetuated the Clone Wars and the destruction you talk of in the OT? Yeah...the Emperor...the man Vader eventually overthrew? Guess you forgot about one of the very best moments in the OT, didn't you?

Correction: "that the Emperor was the cause of." Frankly... no, it wasn't any less destructive. What did we see in the Clone Wars that affected people? Don't quote me EU stuff or come up with your 'maybes' and 'perhapses'. I mean really... aside from a bunch of dead clones no one cares about, and a bunch of robots with ridiculous voices being destroyed... what destruction did the Clone Wars wreak. We don't see much of it. Like 2 1/2 battles filled with nothing but the aforementioned expendable soldiers. Maybe a couple of Jedi whose names we don't know and whom we know nothing about. That's about it. And hell... Yoda started it! Charging in like the Light Brigade with an army of Clones. Diplomacy, tact, and peaceful resolution not the Jedi way, it seems.


But this is one big digression here. My original (tongue-in-cheek) point was that, if Yoda could somehow predict all these (or if he read the script), then the ends (destroying the Emperor) does not justify the means (everything from RotS onward). It's like blowing up your neighborhood to kill a rat. A rat, mind you, that Yoda and his Jedi should have been able to smoke out with unimaginable ease before Anakin had even knocked up Padme. How he managed to get away with everything he did right under the Jedi's collective noses is thanks only to Yoda, Mace, and the rest of the Jedi being nothing short of brain damaged.






Sadly, that was as short as I could make it.

Kenobi is wiser than any other Jedi.

That's true.

Originally posted by Mindset
Kenobi is wiser than any other Jedi. Kenobi leaving Anakin alive was a very wise decision.

The Force was telling Obi-Wan to keep him alive so he could fulfill the prophecy. The billions of lives that ended as a result were a small price to pay.