trunks (dbz) vs hiei (yu yu hakusho) vs zoro (one piece)
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Luffygear4
rules:
trunks -
has sword
ki blasts
cant fly
hiei -
has sword
DOTDF
jagan eye
zoro -
has all swords
all abilities previously demonstrated
speed is equalized because hiei is 6 mach speed above zoro and idk what trunks is.
super saiyan. asura, and jaganshi form are not allowed. either zoro would rape, hiei wouls just summon eight dragons and rape, or trunks wouls super speedblitz.
they are on cells stadium, 15 feet away. no prep time.
PLEASE GIVE 1ST, 2ND AND 3RD PLACE.
Gecko4lif
so much stupid...
Q99
1) Trunks, easily, because he's easily the most powerful and no-one here could cut him.
2) Hiei, easily. Trunks here is the only one that could cut him.
3) Zoro, easily, because he couldn't cut anyone else.
Kento
1st Trunks
2nd Doesn't matter because Trunks has just used Burning Attack and killed his opponents at the same time.
Luffygear4
well, i dont see how hiei would easily get 2nd over zoro, he is the most durable charatcer ive seen in a while. he is mach 12, and three sword provide alot more defence then then 1 would. also, his pond cannons are ranged attacks he can spam alot more then hiei with dotdf. i cant decide a winner but it wouldnt be easy for anyone
AuraAngel
Trunks cut through a character able to survive a planet exploded. There is nothing Zoro has that could save him. You could put Mihawk and every other swordsmen from One Piece on his side and it would change nothing.
Q99
Originally posted by Luffygear4
well, i dont see how hiei would easily get 2nd over zoro, he is the most durable charatcer ive seen in a while. he is mach 12, and three sword provide alot more defence then then 1 would. also, his pond cannons are ranged attacks he can spam alot more then hiei with dotdf. i cant decide a winner but it wouldnt be easy for anyone
Hiei in late YYH is an S-class demon, i.e. he's a world threatening force on his own.
Yusuke and Sensui destroyed a mountain down to sand as a *side effect* of their battle, which is more power than Zoro's ever shown by a ton, and Hiei's ending power was superior to that.
Some S-class vs S-class fights lasted for days to boot. The amount of power needed to take one down is massive, and Zoro doesn't have anywhere near enough.
It'd be super easy for Trunks.
And for second place, it'd also be super easy for Hiei to beat Zoro.
They simply aren't in the same leagues as each other.
Based
Does Trunks have access to his arms and legs? If not, Zoro and Hiei might last an extra second or two.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Trunks cut through a character able to survive a planet exploded.
All because Frieza has the ability to survive with most of his body missing, not because of his durability.
AuraAngel
Doesn't change the fact that his body took an explosion of that magnitude.
Bro SMASH
And lost big chunks of his body because of it.
AuraAngel
Trunks cut the parts that survived.
carver9
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
All because Frieza has the ability to survive with most of his body missing, not because of his durability.
This post is half crazy. Frieza surviving an attack is because he was durable enough, it had NOTHING to do with him surviving with holes in his body...don't know where you all are getting this nonsense from. Using your logic, that would make Piccolo durability>>>>Goku and I know for a freaking fact Piccolo can survive with holes in his body, parts of him ripped off but he sure as hell isn't surviving a blast from beings like Cell and Buu like Goku did.
Frieza and anyone above Frieza power level can survive planetary level attacks...get over it.
carver9
Who is more durable, Captain Ginyu (who had a hole in punched through his chest) or Goku? The blasts Cell used on Gohan that Gohan withstood would melt Frieza (and no planet was destroyed). The blasts 2nd form Cell used against Ascended SSJ Vegeta and Vegeta tanked (and no planet was destroyed), would melt Frieza. Common sense is the key factor here.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by carver9 This post is half crazy. Frieza surviving an attack is because he was durable enough, it had NOTHING to do with him surviving with holes in his body...don't know where you all are getting this nonsense from.
It wasn't just "holes". Big pieces of his body were missing after Namek exploded. Duh!
Except that I already said that Frieza's body is NOT as durable as you're making it is so don't pull that "using your logic" mess. Frieza survived because that's just the way his body works, not because he could physically survive it.
*Looks at Cell's planet exploding attack on Goku*
Sure...

KingD19
Wasn't Frieza already nothing but a torso and one arm by the time Namek exploded? I seem to remember him getting cut in half by his own razor disk. Then him surviving Namek exploding not only because his durability, but because Goku gave him some energy. And I think he tried to attack him or something and Goku blasted him away?
I could be wrong, but yeah, Trunks, then Hiei, and finally Zoro.
Because Hiei is the guy who was 2nd in command behind one of the most powerful characters seen on Yu-Yu-Hakusho, and she acknowledged how dangerous he was, despite her being able to literally slice through reality like a hot knife through butter.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by KingD19
Wasn't Frieza already nothing but a torso and one arm by the time Namek exploded? I seem to remember him getting cut in half by his own razor disk. Then him surviving Namek exploding not only because his durability, but because Goku gave him some energy. And I think he tried to attack him or something and Goku blasted him away?
Frieza was already cut in half by his disc attack but still lost even more of himself after the explosion and was dying because of it (I think one of his arms was completely gone and so was half of his face). Either way, he likely didn't take the full blunt of the explosion.
carver9
Piccolo was shattered into some pieces when he was turned into stone. He reverted back and re-grew his entire body. That ft is above anything Frieza ever did on panel. This doesn't include Piccolo arm being lopped off, etc...if anyone in their right mind thinks Piccolo is more durable than Goku, then they are half crazy. Just because Frieza and Piccolo survived things because of their physique doesn't make them as durable or more durable than people with higher power level.
Goku durability>>>>>Frieza and Frieza withstood planetary destruction. Get over it brosmash and move on.
@King19...
Yes, Frieza body was already damaged and near gone before the planet explosion. He just withstood the blast.
carver9
By the way...Frieza would have died when he was cut in half. The only reason he lived was due to Goku giving him power so that throws Bro logic completely out of the window.
carver9
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Frieza was already cut in half by his disc attack but still lost even more of himself after the explosion and was dying because of it (I think one of his arms was completely gone and so was half of his face). Either way, he likely didn't take the full blunt of the explosion.
Goku blast before the explosion did all the damage you are talking about.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by carver9
Piccolo was shattered into some pieces when he was turned into stone. He reverted back and re-grew his entire body. That ft is above anything Frieza ever did on panel. This doesn't include Piccolo arm being lopped off, etc...if anyone in their right mind thinks Piccolo is more durable than Goku, then they are half crazy. Just because Frieza and Piccolo survived things because of their physique doesn't make them as durable or more durable than people with higher power level.
Once again, that's not physical durability. The fact that Frieza's body parts were even missing proved it.
You keep bringing up Piccolo but that's totally irrelevant since his body was also into pieces and was just lucky his head didn't shatter. The only difference is he can regenerate and Freiza can't.
*Once again looks at Cell's planet exploding attack on Goku*
Keep deluding yourself.
Originally posted by carver9
Goku blast before the explosion did all the damage you are talking about.
Except you don't even know Freiza's condition after Goku's attack and before the explosion.
Originally posted by carver9
By the way...Frieza would have died when he was cut in half. The only reason he lived was due to Goku giving him power so that throws Bro logic completely out of the window.

...This has absolutely NOTHING to do with what I said.
carver9
@Brosmash...
Frieza body wasn't blown to bits and we clearly see him damaged when Goku blasts him. The half of Frieza body that was still there withstood the attack. If Frieza didnt survive a planet's destruction, nothing would have been there. What we do see is him being alive and the pieces that was remaining was still intact after Goku killing attack. Even Frieza father stated a planet explosion shouldn't do anything to Frieza.
Lol @Goku dying from a planetary attack. It doesn't take a planet explosion to kill Goku, Galactus, Thanos, Gladiator, Zod, Phoenix, etc...the planet's explosion is a side affect. Cell POWER killed Goku, not the planet's explosion. I feel got darn safe at saying that Roshi can hit Goku with as many moon busting blasts as he wants and it won't do a thing to him. I feel got darn safe at saying Saiyan Saga Vegeta can hit Super Saiyan Goku with as many Planetary blast as he wants and it will not do a thing to him. Cell can kill Frieza with a casual blast if he wants and the planet would still be intact, hell, the city would still be intact. This is called "knowing power levels" my friend. Cell exploding on a Goku (and we have no idea if this would have only destroyed a planet since the blast laid waste to snake way) doesn't mean that Goku CAN'T withstand planetary+ attacks, what it means is that Cell had the power to kill Goku. You're smarter than this friend...stop basing everything off of collateral damage, doesn't bode well for ya.
Lek Kuen
Iirc when Frieza blew up the planet he was trying to keep goku there so he'd die from not being able to breathe in space and not directly from the explosion. Been years though, could be wrong.
Luffygear4
Wait, with speed equalized, hiei CANNOT beat zoro. His defense, durability, physical strength and swordsmanship curb stomps hiei. The DOTDF is the ONLY thing that can hurt zoro but if zoro has 5 seconds, knowing hiei he will, than the gives zoro enough time for a santoryu or ONI giri, shishi sonson doesn't matter zoro beats hiei with equalized speed.
carver9
And Brosmash, this is all in fun, don't take my messages to personal, you are cool with me.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by carver9
@Brosmash...
Frieza body wasn't blown to bits and we clearly see him damaged when Goku blasts him. The half of Frieza body that was still there withstood the attack. If Frieza didnt survive a planet's destruction, nothing would have been there. What we do see is him being alive and the pieces that was remaining was still intact after Goku killing attack. Even Frieza father stated a planet explosion shouldn't do anything to Frieza.
We never see Frieza's body until after the explosion. We didn't see it after Goku blasted him so it's pointless to keep claiming that the blast did all of that. Also, what King Cold said sounds kind of vague. It doesn't go into details over what he meant that "it shouldn't do anything to Frieza".
Originally posted by carver9
Lol @Goku dying from a planetary attack. It doesn't take a planet explosion to kill Goku, Galactus, Thanos, Gladiator, Zod, Phoenix, etc...the planet's explosion is a side affect. Cell POWER killed Goku, not the planet's explosion. I feel got darn safe at saying that Roshi can hit Goku with as many moon busting blasts as he wants and it won't do a thing to him. I feel got darn safe at saying Saiyan Saga Vegeta can hit Super Saiyan Goku with as many Planetary blast as he wants and it will not do a thing to him. Cell can kill Frieza with a casual blast if he wants and the planet would still be intact, hell, the city would still be intact. This is called "knowing power levels" my friend. Cell exploding on a Goku (and we have no idea if this would have only destroyed a planet since the blast laid waste to snake way) doesn't mean that Goku CAN'T withstand planetary+ attacks, what it means is that Cell had the power to kill Goku. You're smarter than this friend...stop basing everything off of collateral damage, doesn't bode well for ya.
When the heck has Goku said he can shrug off planet destroying attacks? Never.
When has Goku ever kept his cool and never tried to prevent the planet's destruction that was coming at him? Never.
So don't give me that. Goku can't survive a planetary destruction. Nothing proves otherwise. You're just exaggerating things.
carver9
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Iirc when Frieza blew up the planet he was trying to keep goku there so he'd die from not being able to breathe in space and not directly from the explosion. Been years though, could be wrong.
Yeah, you are correct. He brought up the fact that he can breath in space but Goku couldn't. He didn't think the attack would kill Goku (because he would have tried hitting him with it instead of directing it towards the planet), he thought the lack of air would kill Goku.
carver9
@Brosmash...
Of course he would prevent a planetary attack "from hitting the planet"...why wouldn't he. Doesn't mean that planet busters or moon busters can harm him. Make a thread. Roshi and Piccolo with a power level below 400 had moon busting power, make a thread proving they could scratch Nappa with their most powerful attack.Dont even need to make this a super saiyan. Vegeta was classified as a planet buster during the Saiyan Saga...make a thread and ask if that version of Vegeta can harm Namekian Saga Goku. All of this is simple. Collateral damage means nothing in DBZ, its all about power levels. A planet doesn't have to explode to kill "any" character . Like I've stated before, even though the pieces of Frieza body withstood a planetary attack, Cell let alone Super Saiyan Goku can melt his body completely with a casual blast because collateral damage means nothing in DBZ.
KingD19
Nappa casually vaporized one of the largest cities in DBZ on he and Vegeta's arrival, yet he was hurt by much less.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Iirc when Frieza blew up the planet he was trying to keep goku there so he'd die from not being able to breathe in space and not directly from the explosion. Been years though, could be wrong.
That was just incase Goku tried to escape. He meant to destroy the planet instantly but he held too much back.
Originally posted by carver9
Yeah, you are correct. He brought up the fact that he can breath in space but Goku couldn't. He didn't think the attack would kill Goku (because he would have tried hitting him with it instead of directing it towards the planet), he thought the lack of air would kill Goku.
Frieza never said he thought Goku would survive the attack and the reason he didn't hit Goku directly with it was because it was a slow attack that Goku would have easily dodged or blocked with his Kamehameha. Heck, I think the reason he held too much back was because he didn't want to get caught while powering it up.
Originally posted by carver9
@Brosmash...
Of course he would prevent a planetary attack "from hitting the planet"...why wouldn't he.
I said when it's coming at him.
Originally posted by carver9
Doesn't mean that planet busters or moon busters can harm him. Make a thread. Roshi and Piccolo with a power level below 400 had moon busting power, make a thread proving they could scratch Nappa with their most powerful attack.Dont even need to make this a super saiyan. Vegeta was classified as a planet buster during the Saiyan Saga...make a thread and ask if that version of Vegeta can harm Namekian Saga Goku. All of this is simple. Collateral damage means nothing in DBZ, its all about power levels. A planet doesn't have to explode to kill "any" character . Like I've stated before, even though the pieces of Frieza body withstood a planetary attack, Cell let alone Super Saiyan Goku can melt his body completely with a casual blast because collateral damage means nothing in DBZ.
Until they're proven that they can withstand those things, I stand by what I said. The reason those characters you mentioned couldn't beat the other characters is not because they can just shrug off their planet and moon busting attacks, but because they're stronger and faster. That's the way it's always been.
And once again, Goku died from a planet explosion. It was Cell's power but was the power was to destroy the planet.
carver9
Originally posted by KingD19
Nappa casually vaporized one of the largest cities in DBZ on he and Vegeta's arrival, yet he was hurt by much less.
Someone seems to be catching on. Collateral damage in DBZ means nothing.
KingD19
Originally posted by carver9
Someone seems to be catching on. Collateral damage in DBZ means nothing.
Lol, I knew this already Carver. I'm backing you up, bro.
Also, Frieza didn't hold back, his attack was meant to de-stabilize Namek's core and cause a planetary explosion. It just took a while to happen since Namek was huge.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by KingD19
Nappa casually vaporized one of the largest cities in DBZ on he and Vegeta's arrival, yet he was hurt by much less.
He wasn't even hurt by the same kind of attack anyway. It'd be different if he was hurt by a weaker blast or something but that's not the case.
Originally posted by carver9
Someone seems to be catching on. Collateral damage in DBZ means nothing.
Yes it does. It means a lot more than you think.
Originally posted by KingD19
Lol, I knew this already Carver. I'm backing you up, bro.
Also, Frieza didn't hold back, his attack was meant to de-stabilize Namek's core and cause a planetary explosion. It just took a while to happen since Namek was huge.
It was just bigger than he thought, if I recall correctly.
Bro SMASH
Also carver, I'm glad this isn't personal.
carver9
@King...
Yep, I was agreeing with you.
@Brosmash...using your logic, if Collateral damage means something, that would make Roshi and Piccolo>>>>>a lot of people in DBZ. Collateral damage doesn't mean a thing. Doomsday killed Superman with a punch that only destroyed some windows. We know it takes much more than that to take Superman out. Hell, using Collateral damage as an arguement, that would make Hulk, Superman, and Gladiator strength>>>Galactus. How about this...I am about to make a thread...let's see what others say.
Astner
Originally posted by KingD19
Also, Frieza didn't hold back,
He did hold back.
http://i.imgur.com/EzcDi.png
Originally posted by KingD19
his attack was meant to de-stabilize Namek's core and cause a planetary explosion. It just took a while to happen since Namek was huge.
The core was destroyed. You can't destabilize a body by adding more energy that it can hold.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by carver9
@Brosmash...using your logic, if Collateral damage means something, that would make Roshi and Piccolo>>>>>a lot of people in DBZ. Collateral damage doesn't mean a thing. Doomsday killed Superman with a punch that only destroyed some windows. We know it takes much more than that to take Superman out. Hell, using Collateral damage as an arguement, that would make Hulk, Superman, and Gladiator strength>>>Galactus. How about this...I am about to make a thread...let's see what others say.
You're comparing two different things here. A punch is not the same as a blast.
If those guys could shrug off moon and planet destroying attacks, they wouldn't need to always use a blast of their own just to do that.
carver9
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
You're comparing two different things here. A punch is not the same as a blast.
If those guys could shrug off moon and planet destroying attacks, they wouldn't need to always use a blast of their own just to do that.
Lol...so Roshi can damage/kill Frieza with a power level of 150? So Piccolo with a power level of 350 can kill Goku with a moon busting attack. There is so much evidence against your claim that its terrible.
jinzin
Pretty much what Carver's already attempting to explain.
If you believe that DBZ characters can not tank planetary busting attacks, then you must also believe that every attack from the start of DBZ onward is one where a character is using less than a third of their power. By the time the Frieza/Goku battle starts (and we know Frieza could destroy *easily* a planet in his first form which is weaker than a FRACTION of 1 percent of his total power), you would ALSO have to believe that every attack Frieza was using AGAINST GOKU was held back so much that it was on a level weaker than .0025 percent of his total power... which is not only wrong but retarded based on the premise that Frieza was powering up alone. If you honestly think these characters are holding back their power THAT much despite their intent to KILL one another, then you must also believe Hulk's the type of character to "hold back" when he's screaming "Hulk smash!". And if you believe THAT... Then I've got a bag of magic beans I'd like to sell you. Just give me your Paypal and I'll send you the invoice.
Also...
I'd like to remind you that we saw Goku overturn an attack that would have incinerated the planet, and Frieza stopped one in similar fashion literally hundreds of times stronger than that with his bare hand so whatever this "they need to use blasts to stop blasts" nonsense is, you need to get that out of here... Or...
By all means, keep talking out of your ass and continue looking stupid.. If nothing else, it is at the very least quite amusing.
As for the thread itself...
1. Trunks.
2. Hiei
3. Zoro
Because even "equalized" in some regards, they are STILL nowhere NEAR the same level of power as one another.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...so Roshi can damage/kill Frieza with a power level of 150? So Piccolo with a power level of 350 can kill Goku with a moon busting attack. There is so much evidence against your claim that its terrible.
You make it seem like power levels mean something. They don't. That's why I'm not against the possibility that these guy can't take these attacks. Tanking moon busting attacks is a possibility but it's never proven.
Originally posted by jinzin
Pretty much what Carver's already attempting to explain.
If you believe that DBZ characters can not tank planetary busting attacks, then you must also believe that every attack from the start of DBZ onward is one where a character is using less than a third of their power.
Where did you get the "less than a third of their power" from?
Originally posted by jinzin
By the time the Frieza/Goku battle starts (and we know Frieza could destroy *easily* a planet in his first form which is weaker than a FRACTION of 1 percent of his total power), you would ALSO have to believe that every attack Frieza was using AGAINST GOKU was held back so much that it was on a level weaker than .0025 percent of his total power... which is not only wrong but retarded based on the premise that Frieza was powering up alone. If you honestly think these characters are holding back their power THAT much despite their intent to KILL one another, then you must also believe Hulk's the type of character to "hold back" when he's screaming "Hulk smash!". And if you believe THAT... Then I've got a bag of magic beans I'd like to sell you. Just give me your Paypal and I'll send you the invoice.
Again, where are you pulling these numbers from?
And I didn't say Freiza held back during the entire fight. He DID held back at certain parts, like at the beginning.
Talking out of my ass? You're the one who's pulling all of these random numbers out of nowhere (seriously, a "hundreds of times stronger"?). And Goku always stops a planet busting blast with his own blast. Don't know which part about Freiza you're talking.
You need to grow up and stop throwing insults. You sound like an obsessed fanboy right now.
carver9
@ Brosmash
Power levels does mean something. Goku hit Frieza with the Kamehameha times TWENTY (the Kamehameha times 3 had enough power to destroy earth) and Frieza tanked the attack. Moon busting doesn't mean a thing to a DBZ character durability just like planet busting doesn't either. The issue come into play when they are blasted by someone more powerful than them.
KingD19
Well, consider this. Frieza has 5 forms.
1st Form(tiny one in the chair)
2nd Form(Bigger version of 1st form, looks like King Cold)
3rd Form(That big...weird looking thing)
4th Form(When he gets small again and gets more "streamlined"

100%(he gets stronger and more muscle mass without sacrificing speed.)
Now, 1st Form Frieza has a power level of 530,000.
2nd Form's power level jumps to over 1,000,000.
3rd Form isn't stated.
Final Form has him roughly around 10,000,000. He jumps up to 60,000,000 at 50%, and 120,000,000 at 100%
Now considering 1st form is only 530,000, and it was that form that he used to easily destroy Planet Vegeta... I think his math is solid.
carver9
And if power levels didn't mean anything...why did Vegeta have to lower his power level so that Krillin can damage him.?
http://i.imgur.com/eqhmn.png
jinzin
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Where did you get the "less than a third of their power" from?
Math...
Roshi destroyed a planetary body (i.e. the moon) with a power level of about 139 and Both Goku and Piccolo start off the show roughly 3 times that strong.
Although, I suppose... you're right... since those are base levels I'm referring to and they both reach an excess of 1,300-1,400 on the PL system... so sure... I suppose "less than a third of their power" was inaccurate. I meant roughly less than a tenth.

Happy now?
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Again, where are you pulling these numbers from?
And again.. Math...
As KingD has pointed out to you by now Frieza has an "official" power level of 120 million at 100%. His first form blows up planet Vegeta and everyone on it, and it's a form that maxes out at 530,000. So, at his max first form Frieza would STILL only be using about .44% of his total power... I think we can all agree that incinerating a planet, while sitting in a hover-chair, laughing is ass off, and using a single finger to do it is far from going "all out"....
So consider this.... Roshi busted a moon, at 139.
Typical assessments for how many moons would fit in the Earth are in about the 49-50 range... but we'll give you 50 just to be nice.
So if we say that Roshi's moon busting attack was his total max on destructive capability.. (which is again... quite generous to you since we never see a cap and what he *couldn't* do), and 50 moons equal 1 Earth. Then, these characters would only have to be in the PL range of 6950, to destroy the Earth. (This is again being incredibly generous seeing the difference that even 1,000 makes in fights etc but whatever).
So we know that Frieza doesn't need more than about 7000 to dust a planet.
Which is 1.3% of his first form's max power, and .00583% (which is *actually* .00579% if we don't round up to 7,000 and *ACTUALLY ACTUALLY* only .00567% if we don't give you the benefit of the doubt on that extra moon) of his 100% forth form max power total... So you were right again, annnnnd that's even WORSE than I assumed off the top of my head!
You're not helping your case by making me to the actual math here.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
And I didn't say Freiza held back during the entire fight. He DID held back at certain parts, like at the beginning. Oh you don't have to! That's the beautiful part about this whole math thing (you should try it out some time)! You necessarily HAVE to believe that Frieza and Goku are attacking eath other with less than .005 percent of their respective power by the time they start fighting.... just by numbers alone. Tell me... can you throw a microsecond punch using less than .005 percent of your full strength?.... Cause that's what you're argument tends to lend itself. I guess that's what we were watching Frieza do the whole time he fought Goku.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Talking out of my ass? You're the one who's pulling all of these random numbers out of nowhere (seriously, a "hundreds of times stronger"?). And Goku always stops a planet busting blast with his own blast. Don't know which part about Freiza you're talking.
You need to grow up and stop throwing insults. You sound like an obsessed fanboy right now.
Yes... If you think that these characters are fighting each other using less than a fraction of a PERCENT of their actual limit then you are INDEED sir... absolutely talking out of your ass.
You can't just arbitrarily *decide* that one of the main premises/tropes that the series INTRODUCED itself with as relevant simply does not matter because you don't agree with it. Power levels matter, and if you think that these characters are intending to kill each other using less than 1% of their power, then you sir, ARE an idiot. I *would* be less insulting if I hadn't already felt offended *by* your absurd argument. Frankly, it's insulting to anyone who watched the show and didn't buy into the plot holes more than they did the plot.
Obsessed fanboy? Hardly. Fan who actually watched the show, understands the concepts of tropes, comprehends the matter of plot holes, and has a basic grasp of grade-school mathematics? Youbetcha.
Now.... GTFO.

NemeBro
It requires a thousand times the energy to destroy the moon than it takes to destroy Earth, last I heard.
And only fools actually combine math and the power level system to powerscale.
carver9
And we have a clear definition and on panel proof on where to start with DBZ characters being capable of shedding a planet.
jinzin
Originally posted by NemeBro
It requires a thousand times the energy to destroy the moon than it takes to destroy Earth, last I heard.
And only fools actually combine math and the power level system to powerscale.
Sounds like some bull to me. The moon's what? 1/80th the mass of earth and a little over half as dense? I guess you *could* adjust the numbers to that but even then, arguing that DBZ characters aren't dishing and tanking planetary busting power is asinine beyond words and that's ignoring that we adjusted the first set to give every benefit of the doubt *against* Z-fighters.
And....
Nah, only fools think that one has nothing to do with the other when the manga directly told us otherwise.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by carver9
@ Brosmash
Power levels does mean something. Goku hit Frieza with the Kamehameha times TWENTY (the Kamehameha times 3 had enough power to destroy earth) and Frieza tanked the attack. Moon busting doesn't mean a thing to a DBZ character durability just like planet busting doesn't either. The issue come into play when they are blasted by someone more powerful than them.
Power levels are only good in seeing who can beat up who. That's it. It's not like Marvel's power grid or anything. And you really can't say for sure if a character has moon busting durability. Seeing that their durabilities do increase, it's possible but there's no clear evidence confirming it.
Originally posted by jinzin
Math...
Roshi destroyed a planetary body (i.e. the moon) with a power level of about 139 and Both Goku and Piccolo start off the show roughly 3 times that strong.
Although, I suppose... you're right... since those are base levels I'm referring to and they both reach an excess of 1,300-1,400 on the PL system... so sure... I suppose "less than a third of their power" was inaccurate. I meant roughly less than a tenth.

Happy now?
And again.. Math...
As KingD has pointed out to you by now Frieza has an "official" power level of 120 million at 100%. His first form blows up planet Vegeta and everyone on it, and it's a form that maxes out at 530,000. So, at his max first form Frieza would STILL only be using about .44% of his total power... I think we can all agree that incinerating a planet, while sitting in a hover-chair, laughing is ass off, and using a single finger to do it is far from going "all out"....
So consider this.... Roshi busted a moon, at 139.
Typical assessments for how many moons would fit in the Earth are in about the 49-50 range... but we'll give you 50 just to be nice.
So if we say that Roshi's moon busting attack was his total max on destructive capability.. (which is again... quite generous to you since we never see a cap and what he *couldn't* do), and 50 moons equal 1 Earth. Then, these characters would only have to be in the PL range of 6950, to destroy the Earth. (This is again being incredibly generous seeing the difference that even 1,000 makes in fights etc but whatever).
So we know that Frieza doesn't need more than about 7000 to dust a planet.
Which is 1.3% of his first form's max power, and .00583% (which is *actually* .00579% if we don't round up to 7,000 and *ACTUALLY ACTUALLY* only .00567% if we don't give you the benefit of the doubt on that extra moon) of his 100% forth form max power total... So you were right again, annnnnd that's even WORSE than I assumed off the top of my head!
You're not helping your case by making me to the actual math here.
That's the point, jinzin

I thought it was agreed a long time that math doesn't work with the power levels.
Answer me this; how much energy does it actually takes to destroy a moon?
Originally posted by jinzin
Oh you don't have to! That's the beautiful part about this whole math thing (you should try it out some time)! You necessarily HAVE to believe that Frieza and Goku are attacking eath other with less than .005 percent of their respective power by the time they start fighting.... just by numbers alone. Tell me... can you throw a microsecond punch using less than .005 percent of your full strength?.... Cause that's what you're argument tends to lend itself. I guess that's what we were watching Frieza do the whole time he fought Goku.
I said nothing about a "microsecond" punch. Come on, dude...

Besides, you should realize that Frieza was holding back and it wasn't until later when he got serious and was beating Goku, forcing him to use the Spirit Bomb. There's no way to measure how much he was holding back.
Originally posted by jinzin
Yes... If you think that these characters are fighting each other using less than a fraction of a PERCENT of their actual limit then you are INDEED sir... absolutely talking out of your ass.
You can't just arbitrarily *decide* that one of the main premises/tropes that the series INTRODUCED itself with as relevant simply does not matter because you don't agree with it. Power levels matter, and if you think that these characters are intending to kill each other using less than 1% of their power, then you sir, ARE an idiot. I *would* be less insulting if I hadn't already felt offended *by* your absurd argument. Frankly, it's insulting to anyone who watched the show and didn't buy into the plot holes more than they did the plot.
Obsessed fanboy? Hardly. Fan who actually watched the show, understands the concepts of tropes, comprehends the matter of plot holes, and has a basic grasp of grade-school mathematics? Youbetcha.
Now.... GTFO.
Unlike you, I'm not the who's coming up with all these different measurements. If these measurements aren't in the anime/manga, then it's pointless.
You also keep forgetting that the characters don't want to use up too much of their energy during fights, that's why they don't start off at doing their strongest attacks. Do you really think it's smart to start off the fight charging up a planet destroying attack when an opponent can either interrupt you or dodge it? Because it's not.
"Youbetcha"? You had to actually redo the math because you WERE talking out of your ass, with a very insulting tone too. Maybe if you weren't so quick to jump on the defense on the DBZ characters, you wouldn't sound like a fanboy.
Originally posted by jinzin
I guess you *could* adjust the numbers to that but even then, arguing that DBZ characters aren't dishing and tanking planetary busting power is asinine beyond words
No...it isn't. It's never been proven that they can "tank" planetary busting power.
jinzin
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
That's the point, jinzin

I thought it was agreed a long time that math doesn't work with the power levels.
Wasn't agreed by me.... Or Akira Toriyama for that matter. Goku definitively proved with Kaio-ken that power levels are in direct relation to speed, strength, power and durability. Simple as that.
There's you *deciding* you know better once again.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Answer me this; how much energy does it actually takes to destroy a moon?
139 or less (to some undetermined number).... That much power...
Shown on panel... How are you seriously asking me this question?
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
I said nothing about a "microsecond" punch. Come on, dude...

You don't have to... Once more this is an issue concerning common sense. The DBZ fighters throw punches and attacks operating on levels past the speed of sound in some cases, exceeding the speed of light in others. These characters are attacking each other using power AND speed... Can you throw a fast punch using .005 percent of your strength? No. You can't. No one can.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Besides, you should realize that Frieza was holding back and it wasn't until later when he got serious and was beating Goku, forcing him to use the Spirit Bomb. There's no way to measure how much he was holding back. No one is arguing he *wasn't* holding back... That much is clear the moment we are told Frieza has transformed states, it's clear the moment it's understood even in his final form he goes from 1% power to 100.
What's being argued is that Frieza wasn't holding back planetary busting power just because the collateral damage doesn't measure up. It's a plot hole.... Just like when Hulk hits Rulk and doesn't send him flying off the planet with the hurricane of the force of his arm alone.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Unlike you, I'm not the who's coming up with all these different measurements. If these measurements aren't in the anime/manga, then it's pointless.
Except for that they ARE in the manga.

Roshi busted a moon at 139.
Frieza's power maxes at 120 million.
This isn't hard to figure out.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
You also keep forgetting that the characters don't want to use up too much of their energy during fights, that's why they don't start off at doing their strongest attacks. Do you really think it's smart to start off the fight charging up a planet destroying attack when an opponent can either interrupt you or dodge it? Because it's not. The problem is that you *think* these characters would need any effort AT ALL to be able to destroy a planet. Uh no. Piccolo blew up the moon again with a single wave of his hand in an instant without powering up while wearing his weighted clothing... mid saiyan saga Piccolo is not Frieza and to think that Frieza being afraid of expending planetary busting energy is even a remote thought in his head when he nuked planet Vegeta with a single finger in his first form.... Like I said, you're being insultingly ignorant.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
"Youbetcha"? You had to actually to redo the math because you WERE talking out of your ass, with a very insulting tone too. Maybe if you weren't so quick to jump on the defense on the DBZ characters, you wouldn't sound like a fanboy. I had to redo the math because I was giving you a MASSSSSSSIVE benefit of the doubt as the numbers end up showing.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
No...it isn't. It's never been proven that they can "tank" planetary busting power. Yeah... because every character in DBZ is attacking one another with a power LOWER than the one Roshi used in his early Dragon Ball appearances....

This is so utterly stupid it doesn't even deserve a response.
And.... understanding how DBZ works doesn't make one a fan boy... having to ask a DBZ fan how much power it takes to destroy a moon when we already have panels, numbers, and proof provided however? That *does* make you an idiot.
dvampire
Well the DBZ characters has only shown resistence to ki attacks, against other type of attacks they were actually able to be hurt.
They can be burned,, cut, and beaten physically which aren't planetary attacks.
They can be burned (yes, if you're close in PL you can be burned).
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-2957-14/dragon-ball/chapter-308.html
Or cut
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-2959-3/dragon-ball/chapter-310.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-2959-4/dragon-ball/chapter-310.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-2959-5/dragon-ball/chapter-310.html
And the the moon busting feat was rejected twice through out the entire series. How can they fight if one ki blast can destroy the moon? They can't even see the moon, so how can they align their blasts with object. Several times it's been shown that DBZ characters can't see very far distances. Remember the Freeza fight with Goku when freeza knocked him into the water and he couldn't see? Both moon feats didn't make sense.
As for this fight, I give it to Hiei for having vastly more physcial power than Trunks or Zoro, both who's strength I don't think could even rival Toguro's which is only B class.
Luffygear4
As for the thread itself...
1. Trunks.
2. Hiei
3. Zoro
Because even "equalized" in some regards, they are STILL nowhere NEAR the same level of power as one another.
No, hiei WILL tank the first attack which will only kill him.
jinzin
Originally posted by dvampire
Well the DBZ characters has only shown resistence to ki attacks, against other type of attacks they were actually able to be hurt.
They can be burned,, cut, and beaten physically which aren't planetary attacks.
They can be burned (yes, if you're close in PL you can be burned).
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-2957-14/dragon-ball/chapter-308.html
Or cut
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-2959-3/dragon-ball/chapter-310.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-2959-4/dragon-ball/chapter-310.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/105-2959-5/dragon-ball/chapter-310.html
And the the moon busting feat was rejected twice through out the entire series. How can they fight if one ki blast can destroy the moon? They can't even see the moon, so how can they align their blasts with object. Several times it's been shown that DBZ characters can't see very far distances. Remember the Freeza fight with Goku when freeza knocked him into the water and he couldn't see? Both moon feats didn't make sense.
As for this fight, I give it to Hiei for having vastly more physcial power than Trunks or Zoro, both who's strength I don't think could even rival Toguro's which is only B class.
Ah, so the moon feat doesn't count... because... it just doesn't... Nice..
They can only be hurt, cut, beaten or battered by someone with a similar power level or higher. The only exception we see to this is when the characters literally reduce their PL defensively like with the Vegeta example already posted.
Even in your "examples" we have Goku burnt by the blast of a character above his own power. Annnddd...... Him dodging and kicking some rocks... not really sure what that was supposed to prove... especially considering that Frieza was moving them using his own energy which is again... above Goku's anyway.
Kid goku was pushing around 60 ton boulders... teen Goku tossed a 100+ ton Piccolo... Goku kicked Frieza through islands. I don't think physical strength or stopping power in striking are things DBZ characters lack despite forum myths.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by jinzin
Wasn't agreed by me.... Or Akira Toriyama for that matter. Goku definitively proved with Kaio-ken that power levels are in direct relation to speed, strength, power and durability. Simple as that.
There's you *deciding* you know better once again.
That's a trait specific to Kaioken, not a common trait for power levels. That's a big difference.
Originally posted by jinzin
139 or less (to some undetermined number).... That much power...
Shown on panel... How are you seriously asking me this question?
I'm talking about in real-life.
Originally posted by jinzin
You don't have to... Once more this is an issue concerning common sense. The DBZ fighters throw punches and attacks operating on levels past the speed of sound in some cases, exceeding the speed of light in others. These characters are attacking each other using power AND speed... Can you throw a fast punch using .005 percent of your strength? No. You can't. No one can.
Wait..."exceeding the speed of light"? Are you serious?

No, you gotta be joking. There are no "lightspeed" feats in DBZ.
Originally posted by jinzin
No one is arguing he *wasn't* holding back... That much is clear the moment we are told Frieza has transformed states, it's clear the moment it's understood even in his final form he goes from 1% power to 100.
What's being argued is that Frieza wasn't holding back planetary busting power just because the collateral damage doesn't measure up. It's a plot hole.... Just like when Hulk hits Rulk and doesn't send him flying off the planet with the hurricane of the force of his arm alone.
So he's using planet destroying powers without actually destroying the planet?
Originally posted by jinzin
Except for that they ARE in the manga.

Roshi busted a moon at 139.
Frieza's power maxes at 120 million.
This isn't hard to figure out.
That's power levels. I'm talking about stuff like "a hundred times stronger" or "less than a fraction". Where can you find any of this in the manga?
Originally posted by jinzin
The problem is that you *think* these characters would need any effort AT ALL to be able to destroy a planet. Uh no. Piccolo blew up the moon again with a single wave of his hand in an instant without powering up while wearing his weighted clothing... mid saiyan saga Piccolo is not Frieza and to think that Frieza being afraid of expending planetary busting energy is even a remote thought in his head when he nuked planet Vegeta with a single finger in his first form.... Like I said, you're being insultingly ignorant.
I don't "think" they could. I KNOW they would need effort to destroy a planet (the only who doesn't is probably Buu). The moon is not the same as a planet so that's a bad comparison.
So what if Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta with a blast from his finger? It'd be really silly to assume he didn't use a lot of energy to do it.
Originally posted by jinzin
I had to redo the math because I was giving you a MASSSSSSSIVE benefit of the doubt as the numbers end up showing.
It's not like it matters in the end.
Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah... because every character in DBZ is attacking one another with a power LOWER than the one Roshi used in his early Dragon Ball appearances....

This is so utterly stupid it doesn't even deserve a response.
Have you ever thought that they're trying hold back enough energy so as they won't use up too much of their power during the fight? Seriously, you make it seem like they have to use their strongest blasts right away. Doing such a thing would drain their energy. It's simple.
Originally posted by jinzin
And.... understanding how DBZ works doesn't make one a fan boy... having to ask a DBZ fan how much power it takes to destroy a moon when we already have panels, numbers, and proof provided however? That *does* make you an idiot.
You clearly didn't understand me but I cleared that up already.
Galan007
Pretty much any Z fighter starting from late in the Frieza Saga through the continuation of the series could have destroyed a planet with rather minimal effort. Heck, even Saiyan Saga Vegeta(PL=18,000) was capable of destroying the earth.
Fast-forward to the Frieza Saga, and base form Frieza(PL=530,000) remarked that he destroyed the planet Vegeta along with all of its inhabitants "easily":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14599730/DB296-02.jpg.html
Fast-forward to the Cell Saga, and Cell stated that he'd gathered enough energy to destroy the entire solar system:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14600011/350704.gif.html
ie. destroying a single planet would've been child's play.
jinzin
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
That's a trait specific to Kaioken, not a common trait for power levels. That's a big difference.
No there isn't, higher power equals better everything... In fact, I'm being QUITE generous to you on this whole power level business because the fact of the matter is that using Kioken as the basis for PL related arguments is INCREDIBLY unfair to DBZ supporters because the cold truth is... having twice the power level of another character makes you MANY times stronger, faster, and more powerful than the ratio would indicate...
How do we know? Because a farmer with a PL of 5 couldn't stand still while shooting a gun... and Goku with a PL of 10 was axe proof, bullet proof, could throw cars, blow them up, vanish to the naked eye.
The only way power scaling *doesn't* work in DBZ arguments is if you want to take what's actually suggested by the on panel material and admit that not only does a higher power level mean better stats, but that it means MUCH better stats by a ridiculous degree far beyond what the ratio indicates.
The only reason we throw you all the bones we do in these arguments is because everyone wants quantifiable data rather than just admit that DBZ characters are light speed planet dusters who are littered with plot holes like EVERY superhero.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
I'm talking about in real-life. In a thread about anime characters, where it takes a PL of 139 to blow up a moon.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Wait..."exceeding the speed of light"? Are you serious?

No, you gotta be joking. There are no "lightspeed" feats in DBZ.
Wrong. Piccolo blew up the moon (again) in an instant. Radditz sidestepped that attack at point blank range. Done.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
So he's using planet destroying powers without actually destroying the planet?

YES! Now you're gettin' it! It's called a plot hole.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
That's power levels. I'm talking about stuff like "a hundred times stronger" or "less than a fraction". Where can you find any of this in the manga?
You... *do* understand the concept of mathematics no?
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
I don't "think" they could. I KNOW they would need effort to destroy a planet (the only who doesn't is probably Buu). The moon is not the same as a planet so that's a bad comparison.
The moon is not *much* different to an energy beam indifferent to what it is it's hitting...
Taking one more adjustment for Namebro's sake.
This is once again giving a benefit of the doubt to DBZ haters in that ki-blasts do more or less damage to inanimate objects contingent on density and mass... Which is not suggested anywhere in DBZ to my knowledge barring Gods and magic.
The earth is roughly equivalent to the mass of 80 moons. Most approximations are anywhere between 74 to 82 so we'll compromise at 80.
Which means going off of Roshi's feat of moon busting at 139; to adjust for mass one would need about 11,120 on the PL system.
Adjusting for the density difference between earth and the moon we need to note that the moon is about 3/5 the density of Earth.
Our final assessment is that one would need a power level of about 17,792 to be able to level the Earth assuming that the Earth can stand up to a ki blast any better than the moon.
Concerning Frieza, this is STILL only 3.35% of Frieza's first form max...
Annnnnnnd.....
still only .014% of his forth form 100% max power.
So we know they can level something the *size* of the Earth at 7,000
and we know they can smash a body with the mass/density of earth at about 18,000....
And we ARE talking in terms of "vaporizing" here.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
So what if Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta with a blast from his finger? Just THAT... THAT'S THE POINT. Asking me "so what if your point happened" ignores why I brought it up... I brought it up because it DID happen... Effortlessly.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
It'd be really silly to assume he didn't use a lot of energy to do it. It *would* be silly wouldn't it? Good thing no one's doing that here. Did he use a lot of energy? Of course! It was enough to blow up a planet filled with the strongest warrior race in the universe, and it had to go through one of their most powerful warriors to get to the planet...
What I *am* arguing is that it was not a lot of energy... FOR FRIEZA.... less than .014 to .005 percent of his full power depending.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
It's not like it matters in the end. Oh I wholly agree. I wasn't aware before but now I see, you have as much an aversion to math as you do common sense and logic
So the numbers *wouldn't* matter would they?
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Have you ever thought that they're trying hold back enough energy so as they won't use up too much of their power during the fight? Seriously, you make it seem like they have to use their strongest blasts right away. Doing such a thing would drain their energy. It's simple. Using their strongest blast at the start of the fight *would* cause a drain on their energy. What you don't seem to understand is that Frieza would need NOWHERE NEAR his "strongest blast" to dust a planet.. as stated, shown, and proven.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
You clearly didn't understand me but I cleared that up already. The only thing that's clear here is that you are possibly the biggest troll I've seen here in years... I forgot I was talking to the guy who thought Kenshiro could pose a threat to Frieza unless Frieza got "serious"...

jinzin
Originally posted by Galan007
Pretty much any Z fighter starting from late in the Frieza Saga through the continuation of the series could have destroyed a planet with rather minimal effort. Heck, even Saiyan Saga Vegeta(PL=18,000) was capable of destroying the earth.
Fast-forward to the Frieza Saga, and base form Frieza(PL=530,000) remarked that he destroyed the planet Vegeta along with all of its inhabitants "easily":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14599730/DB296-02.jpg.html
Fast-forward to the Cell Saga, and Cell stated that he'd gathered enough energy to destroy the entire solar system:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14600011/350704.gif.html
ie. destroying a single planet would've been child's play.
X'actly!
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by jinzin
No there isn't, higher power equals better everything...
No it doesn't. If that was the case, an ASSJ's speed would increase along with his power, but it doesn't. That just shows you that power levels don't work the way you say it.
Yeah. It just shows how different power levels work from the way you're claiming.
Wrong. The attack Piccolo used on Radditz wasn't even the same one.
But that's not a "plot hole". That's something only you came up with. Stuff made up by a viewer/reader doesn't mean it's a plot hole.
That's not what I'm talking about. I understand you using mathematics but that doesn't mean that that's the way it works in the series because there's hardly any consistent measurements of speed, strength, and power and there's no darn way it's like in real-life.
No, it wasn't "effortlessly". If you're going by that scan, Frieza was only talking about when he fought King Vegeta, not when he destroyed the planet.
But you can't argue that because there's no evidence to back it up. You really have no idea how little energy it zapped from him so that is pointless to talk about.
I already said power levels are meaningless before you even got here. Perhaps you should try to reading next time.
Once again, it's not "shown or proven".
You know what...I'm getting real sick and tired of you! You couldn't even keep a consistent argument back then and here you are stumbling over your own argument like last time. You really got no room to call anybody else a troll when you're acting like a complete douchebag over a discussion about anime/manga characters unprovoked, so how the heck can you talk about anybody else? You can't! All you've been doing is acting like an obsessed DBZ fanboy troll yourself! Heck, you don't even know what trolling is! You're just spouting that out like some of those idiots from GameFAQs.
So I'll tell you what, you learn how to respond to my post like an adult and maybe I'll consider responding back.
Bro SMASH
Oh and just to clear something up, I'm a DBZ fan, not a hater. I'm not biased for or against DBZ. I grew up on the series. It's what introduced me to anime in the first place.
KingD19
Well we're getting a bit off topic. Frieza's 100% final form was 120 Million. And we have to assume his cyborg form was either slightly less, or slightly more considering he wasn't in his 100% form, but was more than likely enhanced beyond it with the cybernetics.
And Trunks killed him with just a bit of flash and not all that much effort.
And even though numbers are all over the place, Trunks still easily killed a legit planet buster who made Goku sweat several times before he unlocked the first level of his ultimate power.
That puts him solidly in first place.
Next we have Hiei, wielder of the Dragon of the Darkness Flame, and 2nd in command to one of the 3 most powerful beings in the YYH-verse. She also acknowledges how powerful Hiei himself is. And beings in the S-Class(which Hiei is a part of, albeit in the lower to middle range), can bust mountains as a result of a fight, can sink islands and peninsulas, etc... Puts him in second considering his speed/durability/strength/energy powers/etc...
And Zoro, while awesome, brings up the rear. There's no real debate about that.
jinzin
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
No it doesn't. If that was the case, an ASSJ's speed would increase along with his power, but it doesn't. That just shows you that power levels don't work the way you say it.
Really? The same tired old argument as last time?
Once more (though this is more for onlookers rather than yourself as I know you'll never grasp this concept)... That's an exception to the rule specifically because ASSJ is a form that massively increased the bulk to the body of it's user. The bodies were not those of changelings, so the strain on the BODY had an effect on the BODY. Their power output, strength, and durability went up with their power. None of the Saiyans had the time to adjust to the bigger bodies they were using.. If they did, the wouldn't be effected by the size of the body... Kind of like Broly. As we've gone over before.
Don't you think it's funny that the only example you can think of is ALSO the only one that has a tremendous physical effect on the body of the person using it? Probably not, because you're an absurd little man with a lot of empty space where your brains *should* be.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Yeah. It just shows how different power levels work from the way you're claiming.
Nope..
You asked how much power it takes to dust a moon... 139... That's EXACTLY how power levels work. As shown on panel.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Wrong. The attack Piccolo used on Radditz wasn't even the same one. Piccolo used the special beam canon and was shocked that Radditz dodged it, because it's an attack boasted for speed and power. Radditz dodged a> light speed attack. Unless you now think Piccolo could have peppered Radditz with faster attacks and just chose... not to... despite the fact that Radditz was faster than him and Goku... Which... considering your blundering in this thread wouldn't be surprising one bit.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
But that's not a "plot hole". That's something only you came up with. Stuff made up by a viewer/reader doesn't mean it's a plot hole.
Uh no.... If a story gives you a rule and does things that go against that rule it's called a plot hole.
Superman got knocked out by an exploding gas station.
Silver Surfer's been knocked out by Mexican farmers with a hammer.
Hulk doesn't typically punch people across nations in fist fights.
Batman's dodged light speed attacks along with every other street level... This is plot hole city, welcome to the world of the modern superhero!
Ooooorrrrrr you can tell me again about how DBZ characters try to kill each other using less than 1 percent of their power.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
That's not what I'm talking about. I understand you using mathematics but that doesn't mean that that's the way it works in the series because there's hardly any consistent measurements of speed, strength, and power and there's no darn way it's like in real-life.
It should be. Because that's what we have to quantify things here. And yeah, it's pretty clear that the series kind of supports my argument in that *if it doesn't work that way, then it actually works much worse against DB haters*. Again, the math being used here is base level, benefit of the doubt given to you and it STILL looks horrific for ya.
The bottom line is that power level increases are FARRRRR more potent than the ratio/geometric increase indicates, as suggested by the proof of Goku being used as a measuring stick against the farmer.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
No, it wasn't "effortlessly". If you're going by that scan, Frieza was only talking about when he fought King Vegeta, not when he destroyed the planet. Yes it WAS effortlessly. Even if we ignore the anime for nothing but the manga, and ignore the multiple representations of Frieza killing the planet with a single finger, there's still the fact that Frieza didn't have to transform for the destruction of the planet either.
Even if we were *all* ludicrously stupid like yourself and forced ourselves to believe that Frieza needed *full power* at form 1 to destroy planet Vegeta, it would STILL only be using .44% of his total power.... .44% of 100%..... Yes. Effortlessly.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
But you can't argue that because there's no evidence to back it up. You really have no idea how little energy it zapped from him so that is pointless to talk about.
Uh yes there is...
(going by manga only)
Frieza didn't have to transform. Even maxing his first form out he's only using 530,000... out of a total 120,000,000.... .44%.... That's less energy than I use up to take a piss.
It might be pointless to talk about it with *you* since you're a ridiculous human being who thinks that Frieza would even have to bat an eyelash at Kenshiro... but most people would grasp this concept just fine.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
I already said power levels are meaningless before you even got here. Perhaps you should try to reading next time.
Lol
Well you may have said that... but since everything you say is endlessly incompetent and entirely inaccurate I decided to clear up the air here.
Power levels are only meaningless to someone like you who doesn't understand the first thing about mathematics, common sense, percentages, staying awake in the classroom, the notion that you shouldn't sniff glue and sharpies, etc ... But to people that watched/read DBZ and understood what they were looking at.. Yeah, they matter. As stated by Akira.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Once again, it's not "shown or proven".
Y'know except... on panel, on screen, and everything in between. You're the equivalent of a little kid plugging his ears, closing his eyes and screaming at the top of his lungs so he doesn't have to hear what he doesn't like.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
You know what...I'm getting real sick and tired of you! You couldn't even keep a consistent argument back then and here you are stumbling over your own argument like last time.
If I'm stumbling, it's only over the rotting carcass of your putrid excuse of an argument.
I've been consistent since day one.
Power levels matter. Akira says so. Akira proves so. Akira based the first chapter of DBZ on insisting so... Your defections to plot holes, bad examples, insanity, and willful stupidity doesn't change that.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
You really got no room to call anybody else a troll when you're acting like a complete douchebag over a discussion about anime/manga characters unprovoked, so how the heck can you talk about anybody else? You can't! All you've been doing is acting like an obsessed DBZ fanboy troll yourself! Heck, you don't even know what trolling is! You're just spouting that out like some of those idiots from GameFAQs.
So I'll tell you what, you learn how to respond to my post like an adult and maybe I'll consider responding back.
As I said, I feel like you're insulting our collective intelligence with your... "arguments"
Truth be told, I'm only HOPING you're a troll because my faith in humanity forces me to REFUSE to believe that you're actually this preposterous. I mean, I could be absolutely wrong, and you're not a troll.... but then, as with the rest of this "argument", it doesn't look good for you.
Oh, I eagerly await your response... I mean, I heavily doubt it will be any more than the "nu-uh" argument you've provided so far but your retorts are... at the least, *very* entertaining!

jinzin
Originally posted by KingD19
Well we're getting a bit off topic. Frieza's 100% final form was 120 Million. And we have to assume his cyborg form was either slightly less, or slightly more considering he wasn't in his 100% form, but was more than likely enhanced beyond it with the cybernetics.
And Trunks killed him with just a bit of flash and not all that much effort.
And even though numbers are all over the place, Trunks still easily killed a legit planet buster who made Goku sweat several times before he unlocked the first level of his ultimate power.
That puts him solidly in first place.
Next we have Hiei, wielder of the Dragon of the Darkness Flame, and 2nd in command to one of the 3 most powerful beings in the YYH-verse. She also acknowledges how powerful Hiei himself is. And beings in the S-Class(which Hiei is a part of, albeit in the lower to middle range), can bust mountains as a result of a fight, can sink islands and peninsulas, etc... Puts him in second considering his speed/durability/strength/energy powers/etc...
And Zoro, while awesome, brings up the rear. There's no real debate about that. THIS.
carver9
Brosmash is a trip. He is trying to find a way to down play DBZ characters as much as he can and the evidence is right there in front of his face. Stated on panel, Goku kamehameha times 3 blast was planetary, Goku hit Frieza with a kamehameha time 20 and Frieza tanked it. What more evidence do you need? Sad thing is, he honestly thinks that in order for DBZ characters durability to be planetary and above, every blast that is shot has to destroy a planet...WTF. Just because every blast from a DBZ character doesn't destroy Earth doesn't make it weaker than a blast that laid waste to a planet.
It common freaking sense that every blast Frieza used against Goku was greater than anything Master Roshi can conjure. Hell, during the Saiyan Saga, Master Roshi even admitted he was useless against the Saiyans and this is a being that vaporized a moon. Brosmash, you are clearly lowballing and doing a bad job at it bro.
Akira made all of this too obvious for people to screw it up and mess it up like some of you all are doing.
carver9
Goku allowed Frieza to compete with him and let's not forget, the super Saiyan power level was new to him, he didn't have control of his power. When Goku stopped holding back, he destroyed Frieza. Whatever Frieza did during that fight, Goku allowed it and when he let loose, Frieza wasn't a challenge.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by carver9
Brosmash is a trip. He is trying to find a way to down play DBZ characters as much as he can and the evidence is right there in front of his face. Stated on panel, Goku kamehameha times 3 blast was planetary, Goku hit Frieza with a kamehameha time 20 and Frieza tanked it. What more evidence do you need?
But you're ignoring the fact that Goku was also weaker from all the damage he was taking from Frieza and from his earlier uses of the Kaio-ken in that fight, as it harms the body as a side effect.
Although that's not to say that the blast was weaker than the one he shot on back on Earth, it probably wasn't "20 times stronger" either. It's also likely that Frieza used ki energy of his own to stop the blast.
Originally posted by carver9
Sad thing is, he honestly thinks that in order for DBZ characters durability to be planetary and above, every blast that is shot has to destroy a planet...WTF. Just because every blast from a DBZ character doesn't destroy Earth doesn't make it weaker than a blast that laid waste to a planet.
There's definitely no evidence of that.
Originally posted by carver9
It common freaking sense that every blast Frieza used against Goku was greater than anything Master Roshi can conjure. Hell, during the Saiyan Saga, Master Roshi even admitted he was useless against the Saiyans and this is a being that vaporized a moon. Brosmash, you are clearly lowballing and doing a bad job at it bro.
Roshi was useless because he wasn't as strong or as fast as anyone else there. Just a moon busting blast wouldn't be enough, especially since he's not the only one who could do that.
I'm not lowballing or anything. I'm in no way saying DBZ characters are weak. They're powerful characters. Heck, I even agree with most of the posters on this topic that Trunks is top dog here (even though I like Hiei and Zoro better) but I don't need to exaggerate his abilities to show that.
jinzin
And I have NO idea why I keep replacing where with were in that last response.

Galan007
First off, I agree with everything carver said. I'm simply going to elaborate on his statements a bit...
Originally posted by carver9
Stated on panel, Goku kamehameha times 3 blast was planetary, Vegeta's PL was 15,000 and he was capable of planet-busting. Goku's PL (/w/ x3 kaioken) was 32,000, and he clearly manifested a more powerful blast than Vegeta--- which means his blast was likely far beyond planetary.
Originally posted by carver9
Goku hit Frieza with a kamehameha time 20 and Frieza tanked it. What more evidence do you need? Goku's base PL at the time was 3,000,000, which made his PL 60,000,000 after a x20 kaioken, and he was able to harm 50% power Frieza with his blast... That blast could have easily busted a planet.
Originally posted by carver9
Sad thing is, he honestly thinks that in order for DBZ characters durability to be planetary and above, every blast that is shot has to destroy a planet...WTF. Just because every blast from a DBZ character doesn't destroy Earth doesn't make it weaker than a blast that laid waste to a planet. Exactly. DBZ attacks cannot be measured solely by the collateral damage they produce.
Originally posted by carver9
It common freaking sense that every blast Frieza used against Goku was greater than anything Master Roshi can conjure.
If Roshi(PL=139) were to blast first form Frieza(PL=530,000) with his 'moon buster', what do you think would happen? Probably the same thing that happens ANY time a weaker character blasts a more powerful character: NOTHING.
Examples...
Nail vs. Frieza:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613016/DB291-05.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613017/DB291-06.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613018/DB291-07.gif.html
Piccolo vs. Cell:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613009/310906.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613010/310907.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613013/310908.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613014/310909.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613015/310910.gif.html
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by Galan007
Vegeta's PL was 15,000 and he was capable of planet-busting. Goku's PL (/w/ x3 kaioken) was 32,000, and he clearly manifested a more powerful blast than Vegeta--- which means his blast was likely far beyond planetary.
A mere assumption that's never proven on panel.
Originally posted by Galan007
Goku's base PL at the time was 3,000,000, which made his PL 60,000,000 after a x20 kaioken, and he was able to harm 50% power Frieza with his blast... That blast could have easily busted a planet.
Another assumption. Like I said, Freiza likely used his own ki power to stop it and if he didn't charge it up the way he did on Earth, then there's a good chance that it wasn't more powerful.
Originally posted by Galan007
Exactly. DBZ attacks cannot be measured solely by the collateral damage they produce.
That's the only way to determine how powerful they are.
Originally posted by Galan007
If Roshi(PL=139) were to blast first form Frieza(PL=530,000) with his 'moon buster', what do you think would happen? Probably the same thing that happens ANY time a weaker character blasts a more powerful character: NOTHING.
Unless they stand there and not do anything.
Galan007
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
A mere assumption that's never proven on panel. The writer is using a character in his own story to TELL US how powerful the blast was. It would be utterly illogical, and moreover ridiculous, to assume that Vegeta's statement was false/inaccurate. If you're going to baselessly question one character's statement, then you must question ALL statements made by ALL characters. Are you really prepared to do that, or would you rather just admit how laughably absurd that is?
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Another assumption. Like I said, Freiza likely used his own ki power to stop it and if he didn't charge it up the way he did on Earth, then there's a good chance that it wasn't more powerful. What the heck?
Goku's PL was 60,000,000 when he fought Frieza. It was 32,000 when he fought Vegeta. Are you honestly trying to say that the Kamehameha Goku used (with a x3 kaioken amp) against Vegeta was more powerful than the Kamehameha he used (with a x20 kaioken amp) against Frieza? Do you not see how dumb that sounds? Frieza outright said that Goku's blast nearly killed him, so it's not like he was holding back.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
That's the only way to determine how powerful they are. Not in DBZ. If you think otherwise, then you need to read up a bit.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Unless they stand there and not do anything. So Roshi, with a PL of 139, was capable of harming Frieza? This is unquestionably the dumbest thing I've heard in quite some time.
jinzin
Originally posted by Galan007
So Roshi, with a PL of 139, was capable of harming Frieza? This is unquestionably the dumbest thing I've heard in quite some time. If you're going to tango with Bro Smash, be prepared for a lot of that. lol!

Bro SMASH
Originally posted by Galan007
The writer is using a character in his own story to TELL US how powerful the blast was. It would be utterly illogical, and moreover ridiculous, to assume that Vegeta's statement was false/inaccurate. If you're going to baselessly question one character's statement, then you must question ALL statements made by ALL characters. Are you really prepared to do that, or would you rather just admit how laughably absurd that is?
The part about the blast being "far beyond planetary" is an assumption. That was never said by Vegeta or anybody. Heck, even you're not 100% sure of it.
Originally posted by Galan007
What the heck?
Goku's PL was 60,000,000 when he fought Frieza. It was 32,000 when he fought Vegeta. Are you honestly trying to say that the Kamehameha Goku used (with a x3 kaioken amp) against Vegeta was more powerful than the Kamehameha he used (with a x20 kaioken amp) against Frieza? Do you not see how dumb that sounds? Frieza outright said that Goku's blast nearly killed him, so it's not like he was holding back.
You're also once again ignoring the fact that Goku was weakened and Frieza was caught off-guard because he had the advantage.
Originally posted by Galan007
Not in DBZ. If you think otherwise, then you need to read up a bit.
Perhaps you should take your own advice.
Originally posted by Galan007
So Roshi, with a PL of 139, was capable of harming Frieza? This is unquestionably the dumbest thing I've heard in quite some time.
You make it seem like weaker characters never harmed stronger characters. They have if they let their guards down. Cell got destracted by Vegeta's blast and Vegeta was weaker. Gohan kicked Nappa into a rock and Gohan was weaker.
Oh and jinzin, stay in a child's place.
KingD19
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
You make it seem like weaker characters never harmed stronger characters. They have if they let their guards down. Cell got destracted by Vegeta's blast and Vegeta was weaker. Gohan kicked Nappa into a rock and Gohan was weaker.
Oh and jinzin, stay in a child's place.
Sure weaker characters have harmed stronger characters, but within reason.
Jackie Chun level Roshi is not going to hurt Frieza. Not 1st Form, and certainly not anything after that.
Galan007
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
The part about the blast being "far beyond planetary" is an assumption. That was never said by Vegeta or anybody. Heck, even you're not 100% sure of it. Vegeta's PL was 15,000. Goku's PL was 32,000. Vegeta's blast was capable of destroying the earth. Goku's blast overpowered his.
In short, Goku's PL was more than twice that of Vegeta's, and his Kamehameha was a lot more powerful than the Galick Gun. It is perfectly logical to assume said Kamehameha WAS far beyond planetary. Heck, it would be illogical to assume otherwise. /shrug
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
You're also once again ignoring the fact that Goku was weakened and Frieza was caught off-guard because he had the advantage. The Daizenshuu states that Goku's base PL when he fought Frieza was 3,000,000, and then 150,000,000 when he transformed into a SSJ. Therefore, his PL WOULD have still been 3 million upon transforming into a SSJ. Why? Because said transformation increases a Saiyan's power by 50x(3,000,000*50=150,000,000.) You cannot argue with Daizenshuu figures.
So like I said, Goku's PL /w/ a 20x kaioken amp was 60,000,000, and he damn near killed 50% powered Frieza with his Kamehameha. Certainly you don't think Roshi's moon buster could have done the same to Frieza..?
srsly
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Perhaps you should take your own advice.My friend, the nerdery I possesses where DBZ is concerned vastly outclasses your own.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
You make it seem like weaker characters never harmed stronger characters. They have if they let their guards down. Cell got destracted by Vegeta's blast and Vegeta was weaker. Gohan kicked Nappa into a rock and Gohan was weaker.When characters are fairly close in power, they are able to harm one another to varying degrees. If their powers aren't close(as is the case here), then the more powerful character typically no sells any attacks thrown his way (see the examples I posted above.)
In this case, we know Roshi's PL was 139 when he busted the moon, and we know base form Frieza's PL was 530,000. This means Frieza's power was 381,294% greater than Roshi's! It is utterly laughable to assume that Roshi would be capable of harming a being that is more powerful than himself by several hundred thousand percent.
srsly
jinzin
Originally posted by KingD19
Sure weaker characters have harmed stronger characters, but within reason.
Jackie Chun level Roshi is not going to hurt Frieza. Not 1st Form, and certainly not anything after that.
Pffft seriously, Roshi doesn't have a prayer of hurting Child Vegeta. There's no reason to even bring Frieza up in the same breath.
KingD19
His strongest blast might have given Vegeta a nice haircut.
jinzin
Lol doubtful.. but I like the idea.
KingD19
Vegeta: Alright old man. Just a little off the top. I want that battle damage, singed look from the pictures.
Roshi: Alright, I know whatcha mean. I used to cut Korrin's hair dont'cha know?
-deep breath- KAMEHAMEHA!!!!
-smoke clears, nothing has changed-
Nappa- I think it looks good, Vegeta.
Vegeta - Dammit, Nappa. You haven't had hair for 60 years, your judgement is lacking in this situation.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by Galan007
Vegeta's PL was 15,000. Goku's PL was 32,000. Vegeta's blast was capable of destroying the earth. Goku's blast overpowered his.
In short, Goku's PL was more than twice that of Vegeta's, and his Kamehameha was a lot more powerful than the Galick Gun. It is perfectly logical to assume said Kamehameha WAS far beyond planetary. Heck, it would be illogical to assume otherwise. /shrug
No it isn't. It would be more logical to assume that maybe it would have destroyed a planet much easier than Vegeta's Galick Gun. But more than that? No way!
Originally posted by Galan007
The Daizenshuu states that Goku's base PL when he fought Frieza was 3,000,000, and then 150,000,000 when he transformed into a SSJ. Therefore, his PL WOULD have still been 3 million upon transforming into a SSJ. Why? Because said transformation increases a Saiyan's power by 50x(3,000,000*50=150,000,000.) You cannot argue with Daizenshuu figures.
So like I said, Goku's PL /w/ a 20x kaioken amp was 60,000,000, and he damn near killed 50% powered Frieza with his Kamehameha. Certainly you don't think Roshi's moon buster could have done the same to Frieza..?
srsly
Once again, it only "nearly killed Frieza" because he was off-guard. Frieza wasn't dying, he just had a hard time defending it because he wasn't doing it fast enough.
Do you really think Frieza will shug off planet or moon busting attacks without preparing to defend himself first? I'll tell you right now that he wouldn't.
Originally posted by Galan007
My friend, the nerdery I possesses where DBZ is concerned vastly outclasses your own.
Don't get so cocky.
Originally posted by Galan007
When characters are fairly close in power, they are able to harm one another to varying degrees. If their powers aren't close(as is the case here), then the more powerful character typically no sells any attacks thrown his way (see the examples I posted above.)
In this case, we know Roshi's PL was 139 when he busted the moon, and we know base form Frieza's PL was 530,000. This means Frieza's power was 381,294% greater than Roshi's! It is utterly laughable to assume that Roshi would be capable of harming a being that is more powerful than himself by several hundred thousand percent.
srsly
It really isn't.
Okay, let me put it like this, while it does make sense that if a character's power is close enough to a stronger character, they can deal some damage to them but it's also the case of the more stronger their opponents are, the more energy have to put in to harm them. For Gohan and Vegeta, they didn't have to use their strongest attacks they weren't that much weaker their enemies, but it would be the case for Roshi...and despite that, notice how I never said Roshi is stronger than Frieza. Even if Roshi's moon busting Kamehameha could hurt Frieza, that doesn't mean much because Frieza either take him out before the thought even occured or cancel it out with a blast of his own. But there's no way I'm gonna say that it's completely ineffective to a vulnerable Frieza.
Galan007
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
But there's no way I'm gonna say that it's completely ineffective to a vulnerable Frieza. I was going to respond to each of your statements... Until I read this.
Frankly I am dumbfounded by the level of low-balling you've displayed. I have never heard anyone so much as suggest that Roshi would be capable of harming base form Frieza... Let alone final form Frieza. Lets do the math: Roshi's PL=139. Final form Frieza's PL(@50%)=60,000,000. Ergo, Frieza was 43,165,367% more powerful than Roshi! Hell, when base form Frieza fought Nail, he literally no sold EVERY attack Nail threw at him, and at the time Nail's PL=42,000 and Frieza's PL=530,000--- which equates to a power difference of 1,161%. That in itself is a HUGE gap in power, yet it is still utterly insignificant next to the difference between Roshi and final form Frieza (which, again, is a difference of over 43 MILLION percent!)
Point: if Nail's best efforts were entirely ineffectual against base form Frieza, then Roshi sure as hell isn't doing shit to final form Frieza. End of story.
I'm done with this subject. Troll someone else.

Luffygear4
what are we arguing about???
carver9
Lol...what I'm getting from Brosmash is complete power Roshi>>>>Piccolo, base Goku, and Nail. Frieza tanked attacks from each but Roshi can harm him...lol. The guy is amazing.
Galan007
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...what I'm getting from Brosmash is complete power Roshi>>>>Piccolo, base Goku, and Nail. Frieza tanked attacks from each but Roshi can harm him...lol. The guy is amazing. Amazing is right.
Luffygear4
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...what I'm getting from Brosmash is complete power Roshi>>>>Piccolo, base Goku, and Nail. Frieza tanked attacks from each but Roshi can harm him...lol. The guy is amazing.
yes, roshi can harm piccolo. right, im pretty sure. thats what ur arguing about?
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by Galan007
I was going to respond to each of your statements... Until I read this.
Frankly I am dumbfounded by the level of low-balling you've displayed. I have never heard anyone so much as suggest that Roshi would be capable of harming base form Frieza... Let alone final form Frieza. Lets do the math: Roshi's PL=139. Final form Frieza's PL(@50%)=60,000,000. Ergo, Frieza was 43,165,367% more powerful than Roshi! Hell, when base form Frieza fought Nail, he literally no sold EVERY attack Nail threw at him, and at the time Nail's PL=42,000 and Frieza's PL=530,000--- which equates to a power difference of 1,161%. That in itself is a HUGE gap in power, yet it is still utterly insignificant next to the difference between Roshi and final form Frieza (which, again, is a difference of over 43 MILLION percent!)
Point: if Nail's best efforts were entirely ineffectual against base form Frieza, then Roshi sure as hell isn't doing shit to final form Frieza. End of story.
I'm done with this subject. Troll someone else.
You still don't quite understand what I'm saying...or even understand what trolling means.
I mean, I just explained all of that in detail and all you got was "Roshi can harm Frieza" and made a very pointless reply just for the sake of it.
Man, you got a real bad case of selective reading.
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...what I'm getting from Brosmash is complete power Roshi>>>>Piccolo, base Goku, and Nail. Frieza tanked attacks from each but Roshi can harm him...lol. The guy is amazing.
How many times do I have to say that he wasn't completely vulnerable to those attacks? That's why they didn't harm him.
carver9
Brosmash...
What I am telling you is, if Roshi should be able to harm Frieza, base form Goku during the Saiyan saga should be able to melt Frieza instantly with no hesistation since he is significantly more powerful than Roshi. Hell, Nappa should be able to kill Frieza with just a partial of his power, even if Frieza prepared for the attack or not. Your argument sucks.
carver9
Wait a minute, Junior (Piccolo), should be able to kill Frieza with a casual blast. Hell, King Piccolo should be able to melt Frieza EASILY...if he is prepared for the attack or not. Let's not forget Roshi admitting King Piccolo is far more powerful than him.
carver9
Let's not forget that Vegeta hit Frieza in the back with an all out, ongoing blast of energy while Frieza was fighting Gohan and Krillin and Frieza tanked the blast and turned around and smiled at Vegeta and told him he will finish him later. That was a surprise attack. If Roshi can harm Frieza (first transformation form), then that puts him above Vegeta, the same Vegeta that trounced Captain Ginyu.
Bro SMASH
How can you say my argument sucks when you don't even understand it? I explained it twice and you still don't get it.
carver9
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
How can you say my argument sucks when you don't even understand it? I explained it twice and you still don't get it.
You said Roshi can harm Frieza, that's all I need to understand. Frieza can be at .0001% of his power with his eyes closed and Roshi still shouldn't be able to scratch him (going by DBZ logic).
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by carver9
You said Roshi can harm Frieza, that's all I need to understand. Frieza can be at .0001% of his power with his eyes closed and Roshi still shouldn't be able to scratch him (going by DBZ logic).
That's just another excuse for you to exaggerate the DBZ characters' abilities.
And based on all that other mess you just posted, no, you really don't understand what I'm saying. It's just another case of selective reading.
carver9
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
That's just another excuse for you to exaggerate the DBZ characters' abilities.
And based on all that other mess you just posted, no, you really don't understand what I'm saying. It's just another case of selective reading.
Can Roshi harm Frieza?
Villelater
maybe if Roshi fought in big muscle mode instead of only doing Kamahama blasts we would have an arguement...
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by carver9
Anything.
Like what? Any example?
carver9
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Like what? Any example?
Any attack Roshi can do.
jinzin
I love how something like 4 or 5 people are telling Bro-smash how utterly absurd his argument is. Go into vast detail why using proof after proof after proof and after all of it, he thinks it's US that are "selectively reading" or that it's us with the failure of "understanding"....
Stop talking to him Carver, he's either the worlds biggest troll, or the planet's biggest idiot. You can't argue with someone so oblivious.
He thinks Kenshiro can harm Frieza too remember?
What a joke... Even if he's trolling, he's good for a laugh... I'll give him that.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by carver9
Any attack Roshi can do.
I asked for examples.
Also, I noticed jinzin still dipping in with some useless posts...of course, I don't expect much from someone who acts like a douchebag over an anime/manga discussion. Typical habit of a troll.
Kirikaze Fuuma
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
I asked for examples.
Also, I noticed jinzin still dipping in with some useless posts...of course, I don't expect much from someone who acts like a douchebag over an anime/manga discussion. Typical habit of a troll.
lol you're still asking for examples?
Let me give you one example. Roshi's strongest kamehameha. Can he harm Freeza with this? I'll be waiting.
Bro SMASH
What is his strongest Kamehameha capable of?
Kirikaze Fuuma
Well... if you don't even know it, then I guess it's futile to talk about this with you. I thought you have more knowledge of DB/DBZ than this.
Have a nice day.
carver9
He thinks Roshi moon busting attack would work on Frieza. Sad thing is, Roshi admitted with ALL his power, he can NOT beat King Piccolo...that's why he tried to contain Piccolo with an outside power source. If he admits he can't do a got darn thing against KP, what is he going to ddo to Frieza.?
jinzin
Roshi'll moiderize 'im!!!!!

Bro SMASH
Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
Well... if you don't even know it, then I guess it's futile to talk about this with you. I thought you have more knowledge of DB/DBZ than this.
Have a nice day.
Just like I thought, you don't even know what the discussion is.
Originally posted by carver9
He thinks Roshi moon busting attack would work on Frieza. Sad thing is, Roshi admitted with ALL his power, he can NOT beat King Piccolo...that's why he tried to contain Piccolo with an outside power source. If he admits he can't do a got darn thing against KP, what is he going to ddo to Frieza.?
You know, I'm really not in the best condition to argue so I'm gonna end it right here and be as blunt as possible.
Yes, I do think Roshi's moon busting attack would hurt Frieza. There's no evidence or even hints that he can just stand there and take it without at least putting up some kind of defense and until there is, I'm sticking to that because so far, it's not been proven.
Another thing is, most people who argue for DBZ seem to always have this narrow-minded view of what makes a DBZ character "stronger" than another. Character 1 stronger than Character 2 doesn't mean Character 2's strongest abilities are completely ineffective against Character 1. Being stronger could mean faster speed, stronger strength, better powers, and powerful beams (because that's what the fight is mostly centered around anyway), not JUST durability. If anything, their durability should be compared to the other character's, not just the destruction of their blast. And it's been shown from time to time that weaker characters CAN harm stronger characters (such as the thing with Gohan vs. Nappa or Vegeta, base form Goku vs. Frieza, Vegeta vs. Cell) so it makes sense to think that Frieza, a character that was dying from a planet destruction and has never shown any moon-destruction durability, just MIGHT be harmed by a moon-busting attack (like Roshi's Kamehameha, his strongest attack). Plus, it's already known that DBZ characters' can't always take what they can dish out. Now am I saying that Roshi can beat Frieza? No, I'm not. So what's your excuse to start tripping, besides trying to exaggerate the character? Because that's likely all you're doing anyway. You can't MAKE me agree with your exaggerations.
Another thing is, why can't you guys stay on the subject about a DBZ character's abilities without bringing up another to change the subject? This has ALWAYS been in a problem when DBZ is being discussed. There's a whole conversation about one character's many abilities and as soon as one of them questioned enough, somebody just HAS to ask "Do you think can beat/hurt him?" and that changes the WHOLE thing into a different conversation. I'm really getting tired of that because it's not the same subject. It wasn't even suppose to be a "vs." thing so it shouldn't be changed into one. What is the point of it anyway? To overrate your character? And if that is all you're thinking about, then you're not paying attention to the subject. You want to talk about a character's durability, talk about what he can and can't withstand instead of about WHO shot the blast at him. That's why in my last few posts, I didn't give a direct answer because I knew that's where you guys were heading.
And one more thing, stop trying to turn it personal. Me and carver don't always agree when it comes to DBZ (despite the fact that we're both fans) but at LEAST he didn't resort to name-calling and I'll keep having my respect for him as long as he doesn't do that. But jinzin, you really need to grow up. If you're trying to make a point, throwing insults is NOT the way to do it. To do so makes you seem very much like a trolling fanboy. It's ridiculous.
That's all folks.

Bro SMASH
Oh and just to clear up one more thing carver; Roshi said that he can't beat King Piccolo with all of his power. It just means that he's not strong enough to beat King Piccolo, not that King Piccolo can withstand his strongest attack.
Like, when Goku conceded that he couldn't beat Cell, that doesn't mean that Cell could shrug off the Spirit Bomb.
Galan007
Originally posted by carver9
He thinks Roshi moon busting attack would work on Frieza. Sad thing is, Roshi admitted with ALL his power, he can NOT beat King Piccolo...that's why he tried to contain Piccolo with an outside power source. If he admits he can't do a got darn thing against KP, what is he going to ddo to Frieza.? Yeah, if I'm not mistaken King Piccolo's PL=260, which means he was 87% more powerful than Roshi--- yet by Roshi's own accord, he didn't stand a chance against KP. And like I've been saying: final form Frieza is over 43,000,000% more powerful than Roshi, and has already withstood a Kamehameha from a x20 kaioken amped Goku(PL=60,000,000) without being massively affected (not to mention that Frieza also survived a spirit bomb shortly thereafter.)
Hell, back when Goku's PL was only a meager 32,000 /w/ a x4 kaioken, he unleashed a planet-busting++ Kamehameha against Vegeta, and guess what? VEGETA SURVIVED THE FULL FORCE OF IT W/O EVEN BEING MOMENTARILY KO'D!
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14626996/chap233i13.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14626997/chap233i14.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14626998/chap234i04.jpg.html
That said, to think Roshi can cause any sort of damage to Frieza with a moon busting Kamehameha, when not even Saiyan Saga Vegeta was so much as briefly incapacitated by a planet-busting++ Kamehameha, is, well, idiotic considering final form Frieza was over 300,000% more powerful than Saiyan Saga Vegeta!
It really shouldn't be this hard to understand.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Oh and just to clear up one more thing carver; Roshi said that he can't beat King Piccolo with all of his power. It just means that he's not strong enough to beat King Piccolo, not that King Piccolo can withstand his strongest attack.
Like, when Goku conceded that he couldn't beat Cell, that doesn't mean that Cell could shrug off the Spirit Bomb This makes no sense. Roshi obviously knew what he was capable of and would've factored that into his assessment... Unless you think he would have held back his Kamehameha against KP.
srsly
Using the spirit bomb as an analogy is faulty as it is not comprised of energy exclusively from Goku, but rather, energy from ALL living things across the entire planet/galaxy/universe.
There are so many holes in your 'arguments' that it's making my head spin.
Kirikaze Fuuma
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, if I'm not mistaken King Piccolo's PL=260, which means he was 87% more powerful than Roshi--- yet by Roshi's own accord, he didn't stand a chance against KP. And like I've been saying: final form Frieza is over 43,000,000% more powerful than Roshi, and has already withstood a Kamehameha from a x20 kaioken amped Goku(PL=60,000,000) without being massively affected (not to mention that Frieza also survived a spirit bomb shortly thereafter.)
Hell, back when Goku's PL was only a meager 32,000 /w/ a x4 kaioken, he unleashed a planet-busting++ Kamehameha against Vegeta, and guess what? VEGETA SURVIVED THE FULL FORCE OF IT W/O EVEN BEING MOMENTARILY KO'D!
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14626996/chap233i13.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14626997/chap233i14.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14626998/chap234i04.jpg.html
That said, to think Roshi can cause any sort of damage to Frieza with a moon busting Kamehameha, when not even Saiyan Saga Vegeta was so much as briefly incapacitated by a planet-busting++ Kamehameha, is, well, idiotic considering final form Frieza was over 300,000% more powerful than Saiyan Saga Vegeta!
It really shouldn't be this hard to understand.
Agreed with this.
Like Galan said, Saiyan saga Vegeta survived Goku's kamehameha 4x kaioken, which is obviously much more powerful than Roshi's Kamehameha. Don't tell me that Roshi's energy output is still higher than Goku, while Roshi has 139 PL and Goku has 32000 PL (when he blasted Vegeta with kamehameha 4x kaioken).
Kento

Roshi could easily kill Freeza with a caught off guard attack. After all he could easily learn Destructo Disk
carver9
Originally posted by carver9
And if power levels didn't mean anything...why did Vegeta have to lower his power level so that Krillin can damage him.?
http://i.imgur.com/eqhmn.png
I want brosmash to answer this scan. Krillin who is far more powerful than Roshi admits he can't hurt Vegeta and Vegeta pretty much agrees and lower his power level so that Krillin can damage him. Unless you think Roshi is more powerful than Roshi, this is all the evidence we need.
jinzin
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Just like I thought, you don't even know what the discussion is. At this point... the discussion is whether or not Roshi can hurt Frieza.. yeah... he can't.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
You know, I'm really not in the best condition to argue. Oh yes scarecrow, we've noticed. *If you only had a brain.*
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Yes, I do think Roshi's moon busting attack would hurt Frieza.
Which is an absolutely ludicrous opinion completely unfounded and just one more reason why people don't take you seriously here.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
There's no evidence or even hints that he can just stand there and take it without at least putting up some kind of defense and until there is, I'm sticking to that because so far, it's not been proven. Yes... Yes there is.
Frieza form II gets blasted by an enraged Gohan while sprawled out on the ground.. it had ass-all result.
Frieza form II also got attacked by Vegeta with his back turned and the blast did absolutely nothing.
Frieza form I no sells Nails attacks. Standing there, tanking the shots with his arms literally behind his back.
And that just a handful of examples from Frieza alone against characters who have titanic strength compared to Roshi. I *could* go on, but I don't really need to. The "proof" you're looking for happened in the first chapter of DBZ when Radditz stood there hands at his sides and let Piccolo blast him. Radditz is nowhere even CLOSE to Frieza's power and Piccolo was roughly 3 times stronger than Roshi at base level.
Not ONLY this, there's also the fact that Frieza survived a planetary explosion that was likely many times the size of earth, while beaten, battered, blasted, and cut in half, and the explosion didn't do much of anything to Frieza...
Again, to think ROSHI of all people could harm him is beyond stupidity, it's out and out insanity... But then again, you ARE the guy who thinks Kenshiro stands a chance in hell against Frieza too so it isn't exactly surprising.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Another thing is, most people who argue for DBZ seem to always have this narrow-minded view of what makes a DBZ character "stronger" than another.
Yeah, it's called a power level. We're "narrow-minded" because it's the rule established by the show and repeatedly and constantly proven.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Character 1 stronger than Character 2 doesn't mean Character 2's strongest abilities are completely ineffective against Character 1. Unless they're remotely close to one another in power, it most certainly does!
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Being stronger could mean faster speed, stronger strength, better powers, and powerful beams (because that's what the fight is mostly centered around anyway), not JUST durability. If anything, their durability should be compared to the other character's, not just the destruction of their blast. Nail could not take a blast from Nail with his arms behind his back and be absolutely unscathed. Frieza COULD and Frieza DID, so no, you're wrong like usual.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
And it's been shown from time to time that weaker characters CAN harm stronger characters (such as the thing with Gohan vs. Nappa or Vegeta, base form Goku vs. Frieza, Vegeta vs. Cell) Gohan only managed to harm Nappa after Nappa had already run through the Z gauntlet, by increasing his power to 3/4's of what Nappa's was and even THEN he only barely managed to hurt Nappa... Think about what all that means.
Vegeta was put through the damned wringer before he fought with Gohan including surviving a blast that he was lucky to live through. And Gohan didn't really hurt Vegeta... He kicked him once while airborne, and then got utterly stomped.. Stalling Vegeta and hurting him are not the same thing.
Goku vs. Freiza... It's already been outright explained to you. Goku was 3/4 of Frieza's strength when they started fighting already. When he actually managed to threaten Frieza it's because he assaulted Frieza with an attack that was equal to the amount of power that Frieza was fighting with...And again, EVEN THEN it only managed to burn his hand a bit.
Vegeta vs. Cell.... Well there's nothing official about it, but most theorize that the blast Vegeta was using piqued out at a more powerful level than Cell's base form. This would be consistent with Vegeta being able to draw enough energy to more than double his own power level with the Gallet Gun.
So no.. out of all of those examples, the closest on you have to helping your argument is Gohan and Nappa... in an attack where Nappa was BARELY effected, and certainly not life-threatened, and the distance between him and Gohan is a grain of sand compared to the desert of of distance between Frieza and Roshi.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
so it makes sense to think that Frieza, a character that was dying from a planet destruction and has never shown any moon-destruction durability, just MIGHT be harmed by a moon-busting attack (like Roshi's Kamehameha, his strongest attack).
Except that he wasn't... He was floating out in space for some indeterminate time period after surviving the planetary explosion, after taking a massive blast from SS Goku, after being cut in half, AFTER being put through the fight of his life.... Saying that this would make sense of your Roshi theory is beyond absurd. You can't make sense of nonsense.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Plus, it's already known that DBZ characters' can't always take what they can dish out. Frieza doesn't HAVE to take what he can dish out. He only has to take moon busting force to unravel your argument, and since he was in the worst shape he could have been in and still be alive AND survived a planetary explosion without any further evidence of damage, I'd say it's pretty much settled that surviving a moon buster isn't even worth discussing.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Now am I saying that Roshi can beat Frieza? No, I'm not. So what's your excuse to start tripping, You think Roshi can hurt Frieza, it's all the reason a man needs.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
besides trying to exaggerate the character? Because that's likely all you're doing anyway. You can't MAKE me agree with your exaggerations.
Frieza was feared on a galactic level. He was feared by entire races. He was feared by gods. He destroyed with a single finger the strongest collective race in the universe on a planet ten times the size/density of Earth.... No one has to "exaggerate" the character to be fully confident that old man Roshi with all his might would still do diddly squat to Frieza.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Another thing is, why can't you guys stay on the subject about a DBZ character's abilities without bringing up another to change the subject?
If you're going to act like an idiot, asking for proof about things that have been WELL established in the DBZ verse, you had better prepare yourself for people to come and educate you... or at the least, attempt to. Power levels matter despite what your stupidity would lead you to believe.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
This has ALWAYS been in a problem when DBZ is being discussed. There's a whole conversation about one character's many abilities and as soon as one of them questioned enough, somebody just HAS to ask "Do you think can beat/hurt him?" and that changes the WHOLE thing into a different conversation. Except that it doesn't. Since everything being discussed is relative and... power levels matter.. Despite what your stupidity would lead you to believe.
jinzin
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
I'm really getting tired of that because it's not the same subject. It wasn't even suppose to be a "vs." thing so it shouldn't be changed into one. What is the point of it anyway? To overrate your character? And if that is all you're thinking about, then you're not paying attention to the subject. You want to talk about a character's durability, talk about what he can and can't withstand instead of about WHO shot the blast at him. That's why in my last few posts, I didn't give a direct answer because I knew that's where you guys were heading.
And one more thing, stop trying to turn it personal. Me and carver don't always agree when it comes to DBZ (despite the fact that we're both fans) but at LEAST he didn't resort to name-calling and I'll keep having my respect for him as long as he doesn't do that. But jinzin, you really need to grow up. If you're trying to make a point, throwing insults is NOT the way to do it. To do so makes you seem very much like a trolling fanboy. It's ridiculous.
That's all folks.

As stated, I feel insulted by your constant trolling and/or willful ignorance despite the sheer amount of proof being provided for you. Not a single person has come in here to overrate a character and your insistence otherwise just goes to show how utterly bereft you are of a single shred of decency and/or a brain with a frontal lobe.
In DBZ power levels matter. Power scaling matters. Your arbitrary decision to claim that they don't is an insult to anyone who has read/watched the material in question and understood what they were looking at. Your insistence that Roshi could harm Frieza is without a shadow of a doubt one of the most moronic things that I've ever seen uttered in a DBZ related thread and that's considering some pretty mind-numbing competition. This isn't me being personal, this is me telling you that you're being an absolute idiot if you think that's actually the case.
Idiot- An idiot dolt, or dullard is a mentally deficient person, or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way.
Yep, I think that DEFINES you in this argument. Perhaps I'd be less apt to insult you if you were less apt to ignore the countless arguments presented before you instead reaching for your "nu-uh" retort.

KingD19
Jinzin...I felt that one, and I'm on your side in this thing, lol.
NemeBro
What are you two arguing now?
jinzin
Originally posted by KingD19
Jinzin...I felt that one, and I'm on your side in this thing, lol.

ouch.
Originally posted by NemeBro
What are you two arguing now?
Whether or not Master Roshi can hurt Frieza with an attack if Frieza let Roshi attack him.
NemeBro
I guess if Freeza lowered his power level enough Roshi could, lol.
Bro SMASH
Huh? Oh, people like Galan still missing the point.
Jinzin, I'll tell you what, cite every single thing you just said in that post. Lets you actually make an attempt to back up your claims about me. Until then...

jinzin
The fact that you're asking me to cite examples of shit that's well known to EVERYONE in this thread including yourself is beyond anything even resembling ludicrous. No need to waste me time getting proof for a "wall".
Bro SMASH
What's the matter, jinzin? You're saying you need OTHER people to see your "proof" for you now? I thought one of the main of problems with me was ignoring the proof given to me and now when I asked you directly for it, you're backing off? That's not exactly a good stance for someone in your position.
So which is it, jinzin? Are you gonna actually show proof of all those things you just said about me? Or are you gonna cowardly back down from something that should have been easy for you?
carver9
Brosmash, you are the only person who believes what you are saying. No one here will argue that Roshi can hurt Frieza. You are acting stubborn bro. Please answer my question above.
Thanks.
jinzin
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
What's the matter, jinzin? You're saying you need OTHER people to see your "proof" for you now?
On what planet does it look like *that's* what I'm saying? And you want to call out other people on their reading comprehension?!
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
I thought one of the main of problems with me was ignoring the proof given to me and now when I asked you directly for it, you're backing off? That's not exactly a good stance for someone in your position.
Someone in *my* position? I have half a dozen people in this thread with coherent arguments, credibility, and common sense that agree with me. All of whom have displayed superior DBZ knowledge compared to yourself.
You have what now?..... Ummmmmm...... a screen name that denotes your level of intellect I guess.
I've *already* "cited" numerous examples to support my argument... A number of them were clarifications of the ones you were inaccurately using for the purposes of this debate. Perhaps you meant that I should post scans, which is something else entirely (again, reading comprehension FTW?).
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
So what is it, jinzin? Are you gonna actually show proof of all those things you just said about me? Or are you gonna cowardly back down from something that should have been easy for you?
Proof that you're an idiot? Aside from what's *already* in this thread? I don't need much... And yes, it's quite easy for me...
There's a link for power levels by 2 official sources. Nothing fan-based or subjective there but you can take your pick. Data Books or Akira's own designations.
http://dragonball.neoseeker.com/wiki/Official%20Power%20Levels
Both sources define Nail as having a 42-43000 PL. Both Define base form Frieza as 530,000-540,000. And both define Master Roshi at 139 even.
This is really the only example I'll go into detail right now with you and frankly, it's far more than you deserve, but, it's also far more than enough to dismantle what little pea-brained argument you've come up with so far.
So here we go.
When the fight begins we see Nail clearly powering up his energy for an all out attack against Frieza. We even have Frieza, on panel, define Nail's power level max as well as his own first form PL if the "proof" for power levels wasn't enough for you.
nail powers up
http://www.mangatoyou.org/Dragon_Ball/286/04/
http://www.mangatoyou.org/Dragon_Ball/286/05/
http://www.mangatoyou.org/wp-content/manga/682/285/2u004.jpg
http://www.mangatoyou.org/wp-content/manga/682/285/2u005.jpg
We have Frieza who says he'll only use one arm to fight, allow Nail to hit him with his first attack without putting up *any* defense whatsoever. Frieza asserts that the power level is indeed what he thought (which is to say nothing) right before casually ripping Nail's arm off.
http://www.mangatoyou.org/Dragon_Ball/286/07/
http://www.mangatoyou.org/wp-content/manga/682/285/2u007.jpg
And finally, we have Nail trying one last futile effort against Frieza using a blast at point blank range. Frieza not only notes that Nail's wasted a lot of energy in the attack, but ALSO notes that there's NO WAY the attack would work against him.
http://www.mangatoyou.org/Dragon_Ball/291/06/
http://www.mangatoyou.org/Dragon_Ball/291/07/
http://www.mangatoyou.org/wp-content/manga/682/290/2u006.jpg
http://www.mangatoyou.org/wp-content/manga/682/290/2u007.jpg
And so there you go. Nail, a character who measured roughly over 300 TIMES the Power Level of Roshi's strongest attack failed to do ANYTHING to a form 1 Frieza who was not putting up any defense.
Not only did Nail fail in a physical attack but ALSO in an energy based one, completely, and utterly.
http://www.mangatoyou.org/Dragon_Ball/286/10/
We also have Frieza make note twice that Nail has used a "lot" of energy, so aside from the common sense it would take to read this little scuffle, we have on panel statements that indicate Nail wasn't holding back.
Nail at a power level of 42,000 would NECESSARILY HAVE TO hold back to using less than .33% of his overall power (that's holding back 99.7% of his power in his attacks) to attack him with a power level even SLIGHTLY less than Master Roshi's max level attack. But we have on panel evidence that proves he wasn't holding back at all! Ergo, Nail couldn't inflict damage on a casual and defenseless Frieza, therefor Roshi would do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to him. Thus we can say without any shadow of a doubt that you're INDISPUTABLY a god-damned MORON!
Oh and here's one more example of a fighter landing an attack on Frieza with his back turned... Yep.... Nothing.. just like Roshi would manage to do.
http://www.mangatoyou.org/Dragon_Ball/298/05/
http://www.mangatoyou.org/Dragon_Ball/298/06/
Now, I *could* flood this thread with more scans and more examples, but frankly you're asking me to prove one of the baseline premises of the ENTIRE SHOW and while that may certainly be *easy* it would also be entirely too time-consuming to do when I've already raped your argument and left it's lifeless looking corpse for dead.
And... You and I both know I'd be doing nothing but wasting more of my time (more than I have already), since you're nothing but a damned troll, or an utter idiot. Either way...
Can't fix stupid.

Bro SMASH
I said that power levels are good in knowing who can beat up who.
And carver, before I address that, I want to know for sure if that is indeed an accurate translation.
@jinzin
I'm a bit disappointed, jinzin. I wasn't asking for any of that (all which was totally irrelevant). I'm talking everything you said about me in this post here:
Originally posted by jinzin
As stated, I feel insulted by your constant trolling and/or willful ignorance despite the sheer amount of proof being provided for you. Not a single person has come in here to overrate a character and your insistence otherwise just goes to show how utterly bereft you are of a single shred of decency and/or a brain with a frontal lobe.
In DBZ power levels matter. Power scaling matters. Your arbitrary decision to claim that they don't is an insult to anyone who has read/watched the material in question and understood what they were looking at. Your insistence that Roshi could harm Frieza is without a shadow of a doubt one of the most moronic things that I've ever seen uttered in a DBZ related thread and that's considering some pretty mind-numbing competition. This isn't me being personal, this is me telling you that you're being an absolute idiot if you think that's actually the case.
Idiot- An idiot dolt, or dullard is a mentally deficient person, or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way.
Yep, I think that DEFINES you in this argument. Perhaps I'd be less apt to insult you if you were less apt to ignore the countless arguments presented before you instead reaching for your "nu-uh" retort.
The stuff about my "trolling", "ignorance", the "proof" against my claim (you failed to prove that any one of these were moon-busting), where I said both power scaling and power levels didn't mean anything.
Back up all of your accusations of me.
KingD19
You've not questioned the validity of any other scan here. Why would you question that one? I'm pretty sure Krillin and Vegeta said as much in the anime as well regardless.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by KingD19
You've not questioned the validity of any other scan here. Why would you question that one? I'm pretty sure Krillin and Vegeta said as much in the anime as well regardless.
Don't worry, it's all fair...if you see what I'm talking about.
Galan007
Astner's scan was taken directly from the published English manga... As was mine:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14638944/db26_037.gif.html
So yeah, it's 100% accurate.
Bro SMASH
If that's REALLY the case, then carver, I'm afraid you just shot yourself in the foot.
Vegeta says right there that he'll "weaken his defenses".
Now what have I basically been saying this whole time? Frieza putting up a defense against moon/planetary attacks.
This really didn't help your case at all.
KingD19
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
If that's REALLY the case, then carver, I'm afraid you just shot yourself in the foot.
Vegeta says right there that he'll "weaken his defenses".
Now what have I basically been saying this whole time? Frieza putting up a defense against moon/planetary attacks.
This really didn't help your case at all.
What that scan means is that normally, Krillin wouldn't be able to hurt Vegeta. He has to consciously make himself weaker for him to be hurt. And their power levels are much closer than Roshi and Frieza.
So the point stands that Roshi's attack wouldn't hurt Frieza unless he weakened himself. It's logical to say that it's not even possible for Frieza to lower his self enough that it could hurt him, considering how powerful he is.
Bro SMASH
Normally, Vegeta would be prepared to defend himself against attacks like that. That's why Krillin says he's not strong enough, as he wasn't under the impression that Vegeta won't resist it until Vegeta said "I'll weaken my defense". In otherwords, he lets his defense down, just like what I've been saying this whole time.
KingD19
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Normally, Vegeta would be prepared to defend himself against attacks like that. That's why Krillin says he's not strong enough, as he wasn't under the impression that Vegeta won't resist it until Vegeta said "I'll weaken my defense". In otherwords, he lets his defense down, just like what I've been saying this whole time.
No, that's just wrong.
Because Vegeta plainly told Krillin to try and hurt him so he could employ the Saiyan healing/empowerment trance. If he wanted to get hurt, he'd have no reason to try and defend against an attack. Krillin's weak, but he's not stupid, and neither is Vegeta. That's just logic.
What he meant was that he'd weaken himself to the point that Krillin could hurt him enough to cause him to jump in power level.
carver9
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Don't worry, it's all fair...if you see what I'm talking about.
Answer the question. The scan is accurate unless you think Roshi is more powerful than Krillin.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by KingD19
No, that's just wrong.
Because Vegeta plainly told Krillin to try and hurt him so he could employ the Saiyan healing/empowerment trance. If he wanted to get hurt, he'd have no reason to try and defend against an attack. Krillin's weak, but he's not stupid, and neither is Vegeta. That's just logic.
What he meant was that he'd weaken himself to the point that Krillin could hurt him enough to cause him to jump in power level.
No, he didn't. He said "I'll weaken my defense", not that he'll weaken his power level. There's a difference. You're making way too much out of what Krillin said.
Vegeta wouldn't have been referring specifically to his defense if he actually meant his "power level". But no, he just said "his defense", because it won't work unless he lowers that.
Oh and carver; your description was too inaccurate (Krillin never said he couldn't hurt Vegeta, nor did Vegeta say he was gonna lower his power level).
carver9
Originally posted by KingD19
No, that's just wrong.
Because Vegeta plainly told Krillin to try and hurt him so he could employ the Saiyan healing/empowerment trance. If he wanted to get hurt, he'd have no reason to try and defend against an attack. Krillin's weak, but he's not stupid, and neither is Vegeta. That's just logic.
What he meant was that he'd weaken himself to the point that Krillin could hurt him enough to cause him to jump in power level.
This...brosmash, I don't know what to say about you.
jinzin
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
@jinzin
I'm a bit disappointed, jinzin. I wasn't asking for any of that (all which was totally irrelevant). I'm talking everything you said about me in this post here:
The stuff about my "trolling", "ignorance", the "proof" against my claim (you failed to prove that any one of these were moon-busting), where I said both power scaling and power levels didn't mean anything.
Back up all of your accusations of me.
Loooooove your constant use of backtracking bullllll!
Oh, we've SEEN you say power scaling and power levels don't mean anything, in fact that is in part what makes you an absolute idiot in this thread yes. But, just because you insist on something ad nauseam doesn't make it true no. So you can keep blabbing on about them not mattering but that's not what Akira Toriyama says, that's not what the story says, and that's not what a single battle in the history of DBZ barring circumstantial evidence would even remotely suggest.... In short... What I've provided is actually EXACTLY what you asked for.
It's proof that power levels work the matter in which has been claimed.
It's proof OF the power levels being cited for examples.
It's proof that someone HUNDREDS of times more powerful than Roshi could ever DREAM of being, failing to put a scratch on Frieza.
It's proof that you are willfully ignorant DESPITE the multitudes of examples and proof presented before you.
Your continued resistance to the relevance of power levels only serves as further proof that you are either completely ignorant, or a an absolute troll.
Your argument necessarily facilitates that you believe Nail attacked Frieza with less than .33% of his power level in any one of his attacks, because it would HAVE to be in order to be even *slightly* weaker than Roshi's moon buster.
If that's your argument, then you're ignoring the on panel evidence that prove otherwise which makes you ignorant, an idiot, and/or a troll. And yeah, your likely all three of those.
Bro SMASH
jinzin, I'm still waiting.
Or are you just all bark and no bite?
jinzin
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
If that's REALLY the case, then carver, I'm afraid you just shot yourself in the foot.
Vegeta says right there that he'll "weaken his defenses".
Now what have I basically been saying this whole time? Frieza putting up a defense against moon/planetary attacks.
This really didn't help your case at all.
And I knew this would eventually BE what your argument came down to because you are too stupid to avoid such a trap....
This is EXACTLY WHY I provided that second example of Vegeta blasting Frieza from behind...
There's a MASSIVE difference between a character not putting up a defense to an attack, and a character actively lowering their natural defenses. Vegeta was actively lowering his level to allow himself to be met by Krillins, hell, that's exactly WHY Krillin makes a point of addressing how he's not strong enough to hurt Vegeta in the first place.
But of course you interpret it differently....
Like I said... Can't fix stupid.

jinzin
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
jinzin, I'm still waiting.
Or are you just all bark and no bite?
Trololololol

KingD19
This thread makes my head hurt. I think I should lower my intelligence to keep up.
Bro SMASH
Originally posted by jinzin
And I knew this would eventually BE what your argument came down to because you are too stupid to avoid such a trap....
This is EXACTLY WHY I provided that second example of Vegeta blasting Frieza from behind...
Oh, really? So that was a moon busting blast?
If not, then be quiet.
Originally posted by jinzin
Trololololol
Just like I thought. You can't prove anything you just accused me of. Just full of crap.
carver9
Brosmash,
Who is more powerful, Nail or Roshi?
jinzin
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Oh, really? So that was a moon busting blast?
If not, then be quiet.
YES! That's EXACTLY what that was and more. If you went to school you should definitely sue. I think you would have a strong case, just go talk for 5 minutes. Easy win for you.
Dragonball Z characters are fully capable of insane Ki/Chi manipulation.
They've used it for physical augmentation, flight, explosive attacks, telepathy, telekinesis. They HAVE the ability to concentrate the power of the attack so that it's focused on it's target instead of wasted on useless collateral damage. The anime exemplified this perfectly when random blasts would go off target and blow up planets around the planets they were fighting on.
If that attack was not a concentrated effort and only allowed to result in collateral damage the effect would have been many many many times more powerful than Roshi's moon buster. But as I said before, you don't have any grasp on what the concept of a literary device like a trope even *is* soooo... yeah.... Can't fix stupid.
Again, to believe otherwise necessitates that you believe Vegeta attacked him with .01% of his full power, even though he was clearly attempting to KILL him.... Again, all this goes back to the Nail example and what *IT* proves... About the series, AND about you being an idiot.
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Just like I thought. You can't prove anything you just accused me of. Just full of crap.
Trolololololololol!!!

jinzin
Originally posted by KingD19
This thread makes my head hurt. I think I should lower my intelligence to keep up.
Such is the power of Bro SMASH.
Bro SMASH
Oh look, it's jinzin with more unproven crap as usual.
Originally posted by carver9
Brosmash,
Who is more powerful, Nail or Roshi?
If I say Nail?
jinzin
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
More unproven crap as usual.

Yes..... Vegeta tried to KILL Frieza.... with .01% of his fighting strength....

Trololololol
Bro SMASH

Every random blast is a planet/moon buster

KingD19
The ki control is a very defining point of the Dragonball series. For example, when Trunks challenges Goku, you see him focus a large amount of ki in his index finger, then he proceeds to easily block every sword strike of Trunks' with just that finger, despite Trunks being in his super saiyan form as well. And that form being that one that easily cut Frieza and his father down.
Bro SMASH
NOW we're getting somewhere. So Goku uses ki in his finger as a form of defense, right?
jinzin
Originally posted by Bro SMASH

Every random blast is a planet/moon buster
Yep, pretty much. Unless you don't have any grasp on logic, math, common sense, literary tropes, fundamental reading comprehension, facts, character history etc etc etc....
And I think we've pretty firmly established that fits you a T.

Thank you for the chuckles. It's not often I feel like an all around superior human being at the expense of someone else.
Bro SMASH
Oh, that's just a fancy way of saying "you're right, I'm just a deluded fanboy who can't back up anything I say".
At least you finally admit that.
...

jinzin

And the delusions persist. You need your own TV show. Trying to carry a conversation with you is near mind altering.
Bro SMASH
Maybe you should be my first guest. I could show everybody just how well I can put some sense into your mind.

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