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Instead of fighting the Republic, Darth Sidious' Galactic Empire is transplanted into the time of TOR and there is a war between his Empire and Lord Vitiates. For clarification, Sidious gets the half of the galaxy that the Republic has in SWTOR as well as any contested world in the game (any world that he possesses in his own time that Vitiate does not in the TOR-era).

This is both Empires at their full-power. The GE has all its forces as well as Darth Vader and the Death Star and any thing else it possessed at the time if RotJ, excepting the Galaxy Gun and the Suncrusher if it turns out that they existed at that time. The SE has all of its forces including the Sith Order, the Mandalorians and Imperial Intelligences. It also has the forces that it held at any point in the game including the superweapons from the Knight storyline and the Dreadmasters, except for the Foundry.

These terms are subject to change.

The Galactic Empire would definitely have much more military power/resources, and is more unified. It controls the entire galaxy, it uses bigger capital ships with more modern tech, has faster fighters, and such.

On the flip side, the Sith Empire definitely has the force user edge, and force users are pretty important in galactic combat.

It'd really come down to what the various Sith can pull off to counteract the military advantages of the GE.

Agreed, it will fall on how well the Empire counters the threat of such a large number of Sith. The greatest threat to Sidious is that Vitiate brings all of the Sith to bear in a direct attack in order to try and kill the Emperor in direct combat. Even with his hands and Force-adepts, as well as Vader, I doubt he'd be able to survive that, especially with the Mandos showing up to provide merc support.

The greatest threat to Vitiate is that the Emperor will bring all of his military against him in a single push to take overwhelm his forces. It would be more than ridiculous if they somehow got the Death Star or the Eye into range to destroy where ever he calls home.

Neph, what's the verdict on prior intelligence? If the Galactic Empire has access to records of the New Sith Empire's tactics, troop movements, etc. then this is a literal curbstomp in their favor. I think you should exclude it.

Originally posted by Q99
The Galactic Empire controls the entire galaxy,

Not according to the opening post.

Originally posted by Q99
On the flip side, the Sith Empire definitely has the force user edge, and force users are pretty important in galactic combat.

Not really. The Old Republic videos show that the rank-and-file Sith Lords are largely fodder for non-Force sensitive commandos like Jace Malcom. Regular stormtroopers may not be duplicating that, but it sets the bar pretty low. Monsters like Malgus are obviously exceptions.

IMHO superior logistics, technology, and greater numbers counteract any advantage more Sith brings.

The Sith found their empires on armies of normies for a reason.

Naturally, there are conflicts in the EU with respect to numbers, but The Ultimate Visual Guide and its updated edition released earlier this year states that the Galactic Empire was "the largest military force in galactic history."

When you consider the purported numbers of the Confederacy, that's a lot.

Originally posted by The_Tempest


Not really. The Old Republic videos show that the rank-and-file Sith Lords are largely fodder for non-Force sensitive commandos like Jace Malcom. Regular stormtroopers may not be duplicating that, but it sets the bar pretty low. Monsters like Malgus are obviously exceptions.

Top non-force sensatives like Jango Fett and Jarael and such have always been able to handle low-level force users, even while those force sensatives can pull off commando raids and handle squads of stormies and the like just fine.

Top non-force sensatives are pretty rare in themselves.




They still are given the military forces of the full thing.




Shouldn't be a major issue. The New Sith Wars trashed all kinds of records and such when it took down the holonet.

Even by the time the New Sith Wars just started (that is to say, 2k years before the GE), stuff like Revan's time had a lot of garbling of it's history, and there's more time and more events to throw fuzz on things in between.


There will be a few sources of info but probably not the type to go into details on troop movements and such.

Originally posted by Q99
Top non-force sensatives like Jango Fett and Jarael and such have always been able to handle low-level force users, even while those force sensatives can pull off commando raids and handle squads of stormies and the like just fine.

Top non-force sensatives are pretty rare in themselves.

Fair point.

Originally posted by Q99
Shouldn't be a major issue. The New Sith Wars trashed all kinds of records and such when it took down the holonet.

Even by the time the New Sith Wars just started (that is to say, 2k years before the GE), stuff like Revan's time had a lot of garbling of it's history, and there's more time and more events to throw fuzz on things in between.

There will be a few sources of info but probably not the type to go into details on troop movements and such.

Malgus kept an extensive war journal in The Book of Sith that has been perused personally by the Emperor. I doubt it is the only one in existence.

The lack of information about that conflict owes more to its recent out-of-universe creation than it does to any in-universe informational crisis. If you consult any of the sourcebooks and compendiums pre-2005, you'll find details about the prequels fairly sketchy, with phrases like "records of these events were lost, but what is known is... blah blah."

Post-2005? It's radically different. I see no reason to believe that such a tremendous conflict would be largely unknown to the Galactic Empire.

It depends really on which half of the galaxy each side gets IMO. A weakened Republic has most of the Core and thus they were able to stay in the fight.

If we split the galactic core too then I'm going with TOR here. The Emperor + Malgus + Dark Council would be too much.

Originally posted by Based
It depends really on which half of the galaxy each side gets IMO. A weakened Republic has most of the Core and thus they were able to stay in the fight.

If we split the galactic core too then I'm going with TOR here. The Emperor + Malgus + Dark Council would be too much.

According to the opening post, the Galactic Empire assumes control of the Core (it was Republic territory in the game) and the contested worlds.

Really, it's another unnecessary advantage for the Empire. Not only do they get more territory, but the Core affords them a titanic industrial advantage.

Neph, you should reconsider the terms and circumstances. The Galactic Empire has a colossal advantage in numbers, technology, industry, prior intelligence, territory, etc.

Then yes the GE would be too much. And I'm going to assume Thrawn is involved here which is another huge advantage.

I wonder what kind of resistance Joruus C'baoth could offer up, against the Sith warriors..

How would he fare against the likes of Darth Malgus, for instance?

Indeed, if the Empire has control over the entire core things may be more interesting, though consider that as DK writes it having control of the core systems didn't lead the Army of Light to crush the Brotherhood, though they were certainly more evenly matched than are the Empire and Vitiate's forces.

The GE has several thousand years of a technological edge over its opponent.

Granted, because Star Wars writers are unoriginal idiots who pretend that that isn't the case, there isn't really much of an tangible difference in TOR tech compared to GE tech, but all the same, I'd like to think that that counts for something.

The GE does not have the technological advantage some think they do. Simply because there was thousands of years between them does not mean the technology grew considering how stagnant the tech level of SW is. They still use durasteel to make starships, they still use blasters etc etc.

If we check out the SWTOR Encyclopedia to compare an Imperial Star Destroyer with a Harrower-Class Dreadnought:

Length
Harrower: 800 metres
Star Destroyer: 1600 metres

Troop Capactiy
Harrower: 7300
Star Destroyer: 9700

Starfighter/bomber Capacity
Harrower: 127 (35 shuttles)
Star Destroyer: 72 (23 shuttles)

Standard Armament:
Harrower: Turbolaser cannons, Quad-laser turrets, ion cannons, proton torpedo tubes, concussion missile launchers
Star Destroyer: ion cannons, turbolaser batteries, heavy turbolaser batteries, heavy ion cannons, tractor beams.

Overall the Star Destroyer is superior to the Harrower, but not by a considerable amount, a Harrower could still take on a Star Destroyer and win. Not even taking into account that all the player characters in TOR are ace pilot members of the Empires Fury who solo hundreds of fighters and multiple capitol ships every mission. The GE's fleet strength is further diminished by the Dread Masters, who can single-handedly destroy entire fleets as they did with the Republic.

And if we compare the troops the SE has a definite edge with not only Sith but also the Mandolarians.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The GE does not have the technological advantage some think they do. Simply because there was thousands of years between them does not mean the technology grew considering how stagnant the tech level of SW is. I know. That's, that's what I just said.

Yes, I was backing you up. Other people than you brought up the tech gap idea.

Other people besides you and I don't exist.

Not when I look into your eyes.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
I know. That's, that's what I just said.

He didnt post that long after you did bro he might not have seen it...

I did.

Furthermore, the Sith Empire has mini-Star Forges in the form of the Sun-Razers. ;o)

And a number of super-weapons that they produced. Plus regenerating cybernetics and other technological marvels.

Only thing that hasn't been seen around here is Mortis' mom.

Ever.

It's still not close. You should exclude knowledge inherited by the Empire of the Sith; it would help close that chasm of a disparity.

Ok.

The New Sith Empire not just have planet busting (mobile) superweapons but also many competent Sith Lords under its arsenal.

After the incident with the Sith Emperor (Vitiate), the New Sith Empire internally fractured, and this gave Republic the advantage it needed in the war. Otherwise, Republic would have never won.

Keeping in mind that an 'insignificant rebellion' was able to defeat The Galactic Republic, it should not be regarded as unstoppable and invincible force. Yes, Thrawn did not participated in the Battle of Endor but the New Sith Empire have some brilliant tacticans of its own as well.

Technological gap isn't big between these two Empires. And large number of Sith Lords serving the New Sith Empire can actually turn the tide of this hypothetical conflict in its favor.

Therefore, The New Sith Empire can win.

An, "insignificant force" that just so happened to be spearheaded by one of the most powerful force users to ever live (ableit severely undertrained) who then redeemed THE most powerful Force user to ever live and killed the man holding the ambitious assholes behind it all together and keeping them from infighting, yes. If Luke hadn't redeemed Vader, the Rebels would have been destroyed. They never really had any chance whatsoever until Luke, specifically Luke, joined them.

Wait, when was Vader the most powerful force user to ever live? You're confusing force potential with actually achieving that potential.

He's referring to Luke.

No, the first part of the sentence was referring to Luke.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I did.

Furthermore, the Sith Empire has mini-Star Forges in the form of the Sun-Razers. ;o)

And a number of super-weapons that they produced. Plus regenerating cybernetics and other technological marvels. Oh what the teats? Can nothing in TOR be original?

Originally posted by Pwned
who then redeemed THE most powerful Force user to ever live Vader? Neither Vader nor Anakin were ever close to being the most powerful. Potential means jack if it's not realized, and Vadakin never realized it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Malgus kept an extensive war journal in The Book of Sith that has been perused personally by the Emperor. I doubt it is the only one in existence.

True, that'd be a good source of intel.



There's in-universe fuzziness too. Like the Sith Lord Riven, who tried to name himself after Revan (and was invented post-Revan I believe).




Originally posted by Nephthys
The GE does not have the technological advantage some think they do. Simply because there was thousands of years between them does not mean the technology grew considering how stagnant the tech level of SW is. They still use durasteel to make starships, they still use blasters etc etc.

If we check out the SWTOR Encyclopedia to compare an Imperial Star Destroyer with a Harrower-Class Dreadnought:

Length
Harrower: 800 metres
Star Destroyer: 1600 metres


Overall the Star Destroyer is superior to the Harrower, but not by a considerable amount, a Harrower could still take on a Star Destroyer and win. Not even taking into account that all the player characters in TOR are ace pilot members of the Empires Fury who solo hundreds of fighters and multiple capitol ships every mission.

That length different is a *huge* thing. Especially with the Harrower putting more of it's space into hangers.



It means that the ISD is bigger, tougher, more guns, and has more power to put into guns and shields (since bigger size = bigger engines).

A Imperial Star Destroyer will overwhelm a Harrower in a gun fight 10 times out of 10, and should even be able to manage being outnumbered well (2-on-1, the ISD retains it's mass edge). Even a Victory Star Destroyer has the solid advantage one on one.





Not to mention, did the Sith Empire have any Dreadnaught-class ships like the Executors? Those are fleet killers themselves (even in their own era, let alone against a fleet of effectively lighter, more carrier-focused Vicstars!), and the Galactic Empire had quite a few of them.


As for aces... well, you do have the likes of Mareek Stele and Soontir Fel, who pull off that kind of thing too. The GE has it's super-aces as well, and in superior fighters.





Yes, it's really the force users who're key here.

Obviously there are voids in recorded history, but you can't exactly compare a no-name Sith Lord with the renewed Sith Empire. They sacked Coruscant, destroyed the Jedi Temple, and controlled half the galaxy. That's not something that is realistically going to be excised from the history books.

Of course it's a moot point because Neph acceded to my request.

Nevertheless, the military advantage remains firmly with the Empire. They're bigger, stronger, and more advanced. The number of troops they could hurl at ground battles is ridiculous, but more important is their naval advantage. They can afford to lose ground battles as long as a Base Delta Zero is on the table.

The Sith's best bet is to target the Emperor and incite in-fighting among the Empire. In a sheer slugfest, they're doomed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I did.

Furthermore, the Sith Empire has mini-Star Forges in the form of the Sun-Razers. ;o)

And a number of super-weapons that they produced. Plus regenerating cybernetics and other technological marvels.


Rather, they completed one, which was destroyed.

And most of the superweapons aren't exactly game changers. 'Super warships' and all that.

Just like the Death Star was destroyed? The Empires get things like that even if destroyed.

They're capable of defeating entire fleets. Nothing to sneeze at.

Question: does either side get ninjas, and if so, how many?

Yes. Only one each though. That kind of power isn't meant to be multiplied.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Of course it's a moot point because Neph acceded to my request.

Nevertheless, the military advantage remains firmly with the Empire. They're bigger, stronger, and more advanced. The number of troops they could hurl at ground battles is ridiculous, but more important is their naval advantage. They can afford to lose ground battles as long as a Base Delta Zero is on the table.

The Sith's best bet is to target the Emperor and incite in-fighting among the Empire. In a sheer slugfest, they're doomed.

I agree that the military advantage remains with the Empire and think you're overestimating the Empires power. The Empire may have more troops, but the Empire has access to Sith, who are easily superior to the Empires ground forces. Sure there might be some crap ones due to the Empires policy to just send every Force-sensitive to Korriban regardless of strength, but considering what they have to go through to get off Korriban, I doubt theres many. The Empire also has the Mandalorians, regenerating cyborgs etc. And imo I don't think the Empire has that much of an advantage in naval battles considering the Empire has multiple fleet-killers at there disposal and the ability to manufacture more.

In short, the Empire wins.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Empire may have more troops, but the Empire has access to Sith, who are easily superior to the Empires ground forces.

According to whom? Jace Malcom, for whom I cannot find a single shred of evidence of extraordinary skill, ragdolls Sith forces on Alderaan before giving Malgus himself hell. The rank-and-file Sith may very well be superior to the common stormtrooper, sure. On the other hand, that's hardly the totality of Imperial ground troops. You have everything from the Dark Trooper to the Shadow Guard to all the shiz Vader and the Empire threw at Starkiller, who's arguably more powerful than any of Vitiate's Sith (including Vitiate himself).

To say nothing of the fact that ground battles are ultimately meaningless when the Empire can simply conduct a Base Delta Zero operation from orbit and slag the surface. Unlike the Old Republic, Palpatine is more than willing to raze his own citizens, troops, and worlds to ensure victory.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure there might be some crap ones due to the Empires policy to just send every Force-sensitive to Korriban regardless of strength, but considering what they have to go through to get off Korriban, I doubt theres many.

Quite possibly, but by virtue of superior number, technology, and variety, the Empire definitely has a shot on the ground. That's not even touching the numerous support craft and space & aerial support.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Empire also has the Mandalorians, regenerating cyborgs etc.

I'm seeing nothing that would guarantee the Sith a victory in the war. On the ground, perhaps. I'm willing to concede that possibility. But ultimately, they are still hopelessly outclassed militarily.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And imo I don't think the Empire has that much of an advantage in naval battles considering the Empire has multiple fleet-killers at there disposal and the ability to manufacture more.

The Sith are outnumbered and outgunned ship-to-ship. The ImpStar outclasses the Harrower utterly, as Q99 explained. The Sith's superweapons might dent Imperial forces, but (as I recall) they aren't like the Death Star and practically invulnerable to conventional attack-- they can be destroyed through sheer superior firepower. The Ascendant Spear is a retrofitted Harrower, right?

As I said, the Emperor is literally their worst enemy: he'll go to the same ludicrous methods the Sith will, except he can foot the bill better than they can by virtue of resources.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In short, the Empire wins.

Indeed they do.

I'm not sure how this fight could be more comparable. Perhaps limiting it to the so-called "Dark Empire"?

The Sith definitely have a shot if they apply asymmetrical warfare and avoid slugfests with the Empire. Their best shot, IMHO, is to target Palpatine and bring as much force to bear against him. In a protracted war, they're fvcked.

That's the point of contention with me: how do you really call this? If Vitiate has his Sith and the Mandos carry out strategic hit & run raids, perhaps culminating in a focused effort against the Emperor to take him and throw his forces into chaos, they could take it all.

If Palps can locate Vitiate and send a concentration of his forces against him or over time against any collections of Sith and then against Vitiate then the Empire survives.

Realistically, it would likely end up with factions on both sides trying to exploit weaknesses where they see them in order to seize power themselves and both sides collapse into chaos.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just like the Death Star was destroyed? The Empires get things like that even if destroyed.

The designer was unfortunately on the only completed Sun Razer.

The individual weapons can be made without the Razer, but take so much time and effort they're hardly worth it.




Entire fleets at their time. Some of 'em are just exceptionally big, fast ships, perhaps with a slow-firing big beam gun. I.e. nothing that can't be taken down by being willing to expend some ships and jumping 'em at once. Not even necessarily requiring a particularly large fleet of GE ships (as an exceptionally large supership... may be the size of a base ISD).



Originally posted by The_Tempest

Indeed they do.

I'm not sure how this fight could be more comparable. Perhaps limiting it to the so-called "Dark Empire"?

The Sith definitely have a shot if they apply asymmetrical warfare and avoid slugfests with the Empire. Their best shot, IMHO, is to target Palpatine and bring as much force to bear against him. In a protracted war, they're fvcked.

Hm, the Dark Empire's forces were... interesting. While they didn't have as much resources as the GE as it's height, they had a much higher proportion of big ships than normal (drawing on as it did the forces of so many warlords, all of whom wanted to show off with big flagships), which'd make the psychological aspect of battling them worse.

And consider the World Devastators- as they continually grow and build up their power, there'd really be very, very little capable of stopping them from just going on building/destroying sprees across swaths of spacr. The Sith Empire'd need to send it's super weapons to take those out ASAP, which'd take out a lot of those super weapons in the process or at the least leave them exposed.


When it comes to force users, there's no Vader to worry about, just the 'Dark Side Elite,' though you may or may not count Darkside Luke as an asset of theirs.

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, the Dark Empire's forces were... interesting. While they didn't have as much resources as the GE as it's height, they had a much higher proportion of big ships than normal (drawing on as it did the forces of so many warlords, all of whom wanted to show off with big flagships),

True, but then the Emperor had been withdrawing resources to Byss for years.

Originally posted by Q99
which'd make the psychological aspect of battling them worse.

Psychological elements are fairly nebulous and even more difficult to argue, in my opinion.

Originally posted by Q99
And consider the World Devastators- as they continually grow and build up their power, there'd really be very, very little capable of stopping them from just going on building/destroying sprees across swaths of spacr. The Sith Empire'd need to send it's super weapons to take those out ASAP, which'd take out a lot of those super weapons in the process or at the least leave them exposed.

True, but perhaps the Sith slicers could hack the Master Control Signal and take them down?

Originally posted by Q99
When it comes to force users, there's no Vader to worry about, just the 'Dark Side Elite,' though you may or may not count Darkside Luke as an asset of theirs.

The Sith have a definite advantage in terms of the Force, through sheer numbers alone.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to whom? Jace Malcom, for whom I cannot find a single shred of evidence of extraordinary skill, ragdolls Sith forces on Alderaan before giving Malgus himself hell.

Malcom was the commander of Havoc Squad, the absolute Elite in the Republic military. Its the same position the Trooper class receives in TOR. There are plenty of examples of surpassingly talented non-force-sensitives defeating Jedi and Sith, even powerful ones.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The rank-and-file Sith may very well be superior to the common stormtrooper, sure.

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

Seriously?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
On the other hand, that's hardly the totality of Imperial ground troops. You have everything from the Dark Trooper to the Shadow Guard to all the shiz Vader and the Empire threw at Starkiller, who's arguably more powerful than any of Vitiate's Sith (including Vitiate himself).

Starkillers power is irrevelent. And as I've said, the Sith are hardly the totality of the SEs ground troops.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
To say nothing of the fact that ground battles are ultimately meaningless when the Empire can simply conduct a Base Delta Zero operation from orbit and slag the surface. Unlike the Old Republic, Palpatine is more than willing to raze his own citizens, troops, and worlds to ensure victory.

Quite funny considering Vitiate was willing to consume the entire galaxy for his own ends.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Quite possibly, but by virtue of superior number, technology, and variety, the Empire definitely has a shot on the ground. That's not even touching the numerous support craft and space & aerial support.

I doubt it. The technology is hardly useful compared to the Force and considering that their troops are outfitted with armor that yields to sticks and stones. And the SE also has support craft and aerial support as you see and fight in the game (droids, walkers, tanks, gunships etc).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm seeing nothing that would guarantee the Sith a victory in the war. On the ground, perhaps. I'm willing to concede that possibility. But ultimately, they are still hopelessly outclassed militarily.

Other than the best troops in the galaxy coupled with an army of Force users and unkillable cyborgs?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Sith are outnumbered and outgunned ship-to-ship. The ImpStar outclasses the Harrower utterly, as Q99 explained. The Sith's superweapons might dent Imperial forces, but (as I recall) they aren't like the Death Star and practically invulnerable to conventional attack-- they can be destroyed through sheer superior firepower. The Ascendant Spear is a retrofitted Harrower, right?

Q99's argument is that bigger = better. This is not necessarily the case at all, and is merely an assumption.

Considering the Ascendant Spear is twice the size of a Harrower, no, not really. Its outfitted with a megalaser capable of one-shotting capital ships.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
As I said, the Emperor is literally their worst enemy: he'll go to the same ludicrous methods the Sith will, except he can foot the bill better than they can by virtue of resources.

Considering the SE can strip-mine stars, I think they're fine on resources. They also hold Balmorra, the best factory-world in the galaxy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Indeed they do.

I'm not sure how this fight could be more comparable. Perhaps limiting it to the so-called "Dark Empire"?

The Sith definitely have a shot if they apply asymmetrical warfare and avoid slugfests with the Empire. Their best shot, IMHO, is to target Palpatine and bring as much force to bear against him. In a protracted war, they're fvcked.

Thats also a possibility. What chances do you think they have? Maybe if they hit him with the Desolator. It was a failure in the game because Angral was a tard and attacked Tython solo, but maybe backed by the SE's navy and the Dread Masters it would stand a chance.

Speaking of assassinations, the Empire also gains assess to a legion of HK-51 droids during the course of the game. Considering that HK-47 asserts that they can win the war for whomever holds them within a few years they shouldn't be underestimated.

Does Palpatine get his force storms?

I'm leaning towards no considering that he developed the power after the collapse of the Galactic Empire.

Yes or no.

No leaning.

No.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Psychological elements are fairly nebulous and even more difficult to argue, in my opinion.


Yes, but I'm not exactly talking subtle stuff here. I'm talking in a lot of battles there'll be "Oh crap there's giant ships that blow up half our fleet every time they show up!".

Very shock & awe situation where most captain's panic.

Every battle they manage to win, will involve massive casualties. Every battle where they lose, they'll get massive casualties *and* not even necessarily any ship kills to show for it.

Tactics that rely on heavy number can win the day and the situation can turn around when you actually start managing to drop them, but especially in early days of a war it can be expected to increase results.



Difficult. Programming is definitely one of the areas where we have an indication of advancement- Protocol droids advanced from hundreds of languages to millions during the intervening millennia.

Meaning their slicing tools will be underpowered. Though from what I gather, the base programming core is still more-or-less on similar structures, just more-so over time, so they can learn the new stuff.




Oh yes. The One Sith are pretty much the only other Sith that could take them on in the numbers front.




It holds true with ships from the same era in the wide majority of circumstances, let alone when the bigger ships are newer and more advanced as well.

If anything, merely going by size alone should understate the GE forces, as tech *has* improved, if not in a revolutionary way.


Heck, it's even visible during the life span of the GE- ISD2s noticeably surpass ISD1s at the same mass, and some clone war designs are considered underpowered for their size.




I'll note that back in KotoR/TOR era, the HK series resembled common protocol droids, allowing them to work in disguise.

In the GE era, they are the *only* droids who look like they do, obvious assassin droids, and they're very underpowered in the language department to try and sell themselves as new protocol droids.

It would probably come down to Malgus vs. Vader and Vitiate vs. Sidious. Vader would beat Malgus, Vitiate would beat Sidious, Vitiate would beat Vader. So... Sith Empire FTW!

Bump.

Vitiates Empire has 'millions of powerful sith'. So they win.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bump.

Vitiates Empire has 'millions of powerful sith'. So they win.

No, they don't.

The Galactic Empire possesses the largest military-industrial complex in the SW mythos, and technology literally thousands of years beyond that of the New Sith Empire. Millions of sith or no, the Empire's resources and military prowess turn Vitiate's Empire into a pile of smoking planets within months.

The largest military in the mythos doesn't matter when its made up of stormtroopers. Quality >>> Quantity, remember? Trolololol!

But seriously, millions of Sith shitstomp the Empire.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The largest military in the mythos doesn't matter when its made up of stormtroopers. Quality >>> Quantity, remember? Trolololol!

But seriously, millions of Sith shitstomp the Empire.

What good are millions of Sith (and I think you're assuming that every sith in this number are actual lords) against a fleet of millions (billions?) of warships? Are they going to launch sith lightning at the sky?

Furthermore, we see that the Empire can almost casually construct a 900 kilometer, planet busting superweapon, in secret, in the outer rim, within a matter of months. With a completed Death Star having no exhaust port weakness, how do you expect the other Empire to counter a fleet of those things?

Are thay actually referring to Sith as force users or not? Afterall, Sith often refers to all those under the Sith.

Originally posted by Master Han
What good are millions of Sith (and I think you're assuming that every sith in this number are actual lords) against a fleet of millions (billions?) of warships? Are they going to launch sith lightning at the sky?

Furthermore, we see that the Empire can almost casually construct a 900 kilometer, planet busting superweapon, in secret, in the outer rim, within a matter of months. With a completed Death Star having no exhaust port weakness, how do you expect the other Empire to counter a fleet of those things?

What good are fleets of starships against the Dark Masters, who can solo fleets? The NSE also has a superweapon that can take out fleets.

Lol, a fleet of Death Stars. Okay.

Originally posted by ares834
Are thay actually referring to Sith as force users or not? Afterall, Sith often refers to all those under the Sith.

There are millions of Sith just competing for the Dark Council positions. Millions of the most powerful Sith in the Empire were considered as Scourges replacement. The amount of Sith in Vitiates Empire is titanic.

Where is this stated? In the TOR encyclopedia and if so what page?

Anyway, a million Sith, while impressive, isn't going to turn the war around. I mean they weren't able to conquer the Republic after all. And, considering the GE has the largest military in the galaxy's history, I doubt the Sith are going to fair any better than they did against the Republic.

Edit: Ah, saw the millions of Sith being considered for the Wrath. Cool. Finally an author begins to understand the scale of the galaxy.

Page 172 and 163. The figure of millions vying for the Council is repeated again at least once.

The Republic had Jedi. Millions of Sith very much are going to turn the war around.

Nah, like Han said fleets are even more important to Galactic combat then ground forces.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What good are fleets of starships against the Dark Masters, who can solo fleets? The NSE also has a superweapon that can take out fleets.


I don't think you're properly considering how a galactic war will work out here. The Empire has millions of warships that can reduce Sith Empire planets into hulks of molten slag from astronomical units away (notice that Vader originally intended to bombard Hoth from beyond the star system, as clarified in the novelization). They can destroy any and all military installations, bases, and whatever with utter impunity, because their navy is orders of magnitude larger and more advanced. It would be like the modern US navy going against the Spanish Armada.

That some of the upper end sith have been implicated to "bring down" warships in specific situations, under unknown timeframes, does not mean that these "millions" of sith can just start one-shotting fleets from millions of kilometers away before they get a turbolaser bolt up their ass.



Not only is it insinuated in the EU that this was the Empire's goal with the projects, but when you consider that they've streamlined the process by RotJ to the point where they can secretly construct a massively oversized one in the outer rim within months, then at full military mobilization, they could have an entire fleet within a matter of years.

Even a single Death Star is more than a match for anything the sith could throw at them. What's to stop it from blowing up dromund kaas immediately upon dropping out of hyperspace?



Not only do I doubt that all of these Sith are particularly worth mentioning, they're still hopelessly outmatched by the Empire's industrial might and military prowess. And we're conveniently forgoing mention of the Empire's sun crushers, galaxy guns and world devastator that Palpatine could have whipped out past RotJ.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah, like Han said fleets are even more important to Galactic combat then ground forces.

And the Dark Masters plus fleet-killing superweapons even it out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And the Dark Masters

Useless against star destroyers.



Fleet killing? Being able to destroy TOR-era fleets is nothing compared to being able to mass scatter planets.

---

Furthermore, all of your trump cards exist for the sith empire only in small quantities, whereas the Empire has 25,000 ISDs and millions of smaller cruisers, each capable of rendering a planet's surface uninhabitable from millions of kilometers away.


----

And we're generously assuming only what both sides have at the start of the war, and that the Empire not only has a list of massively powerful superweapons close to development, and Palpatine almost learning how to conjure Force storms with impunity, but also has a military-industrial complex to the point where it can replace its warships ten times faster than the other empire can destroy them.

Book of Sith indicates Palpatine had already utilized Force storms prior to his death at Endor.

Palpatine solos.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And the Dark Masters plus fleet-killing superweapons even it out.

Sorry don't see that. Yes, they can wipe out a fleet, but could they do two at a time? What about three or four? See the problem here. Sure, they can take down a fleet but they haven't shown the aptitude to take down several at once.

Not sure about the super weapons, but the GE has its fair share of super weapons as well.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Book of Sith indicates Palpatine had already utilized Force storms prior to his death at Endor.

Palpatine solos.

No it doesn't. I have the book right in front of me now and it explicitly says he hadn't mastered it at the time of writing. He was 'decades' off from doing so.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it doesn't. I have the book right in front of me now and it explicitly says he hadn't mastered it at the time of writing. He was 'decades' off from doing so.

And he'll have plenty of more time, because he's winning this war within a matter of weeks.

Although it would be very, very, very interesting to see Palpatine and Vitiate meet.

I had the book a long time before you. And no one said anything about "mastering" it.

Palpatine solos.

Hell yeah it would. I imagine they'd hate each other at first sight.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I had the book a long time before you. And no one said anything about "mastering" it.

Palpatine solos.

It doesn't indicate he used it at all, fool.

Nephthys, given that the Empire has trillions of stormtroopers, millions of warships, and the industry to replace any losses far faster than the other empire can kill, why do "millions" of sith even matter? You have one sith to every billion stormtroopers (and an even larger, rarely mentioned "army corps". How is Vitiate surviving a total base delta zero of dromund kaas?

It doesn't have to. Palpatine destroys Dromund Kaas with a Force storm.

That said,



That's how terribly outgunned Vitiate's Sith are against the Galactic Empire.

Okay, I can't really argue with that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Okay, I can't really argue with that.

I know.

The Galactic Empire wins comfortably.

Not if Vitiate om-noms the galaxy. super13

I'd wager he'll have a hard time doing that in the midst of a Force storm, being ushered into oblivion or, worse, swept to Byss for a personal interview with the greater Sith Emperor.

Palpatine has no Force Storms, as per my authority as OP.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Palpatine has no Force Storms, as per my authority as OP.

Too bad for you that it doesn't matter.

Vitiate Doomsday rituals everyone ftw.

lawlz

Originally posted by Master Han
Too bad for you that it doesn't matter.

I'll translate for you so you don't waste your time. Neph, really, really, really, really wants Vitiate's empire to win. If you keep refuting him, he'll continue to change the circumstances until its Vader and a drunken stormtrooper versus the entirety of the Sith Empire. He's a lot like another user we have here called quanchi... look him up.

That crossed the line Tempest.

haha

You gotta admire quanchi's resolve, though.

Sure, if you admire insanity. Which outside of smexy beasts like Ledger, I do not.

I think he's funny.

So is a cat running into a glassdoor 20 times in a row. I do not admire that cat though.

And I already ruled that Force Storms were out 2 pages ago, so I'm not fixing it so Vitiates team wins, you big baby!

It would be interesting if Vitiate ever met Palpatine. I don't think Palpatine can do anything to Vitiate other than slice him up with a saber. Then again, Vitiate can make copies of himself.. Vitiate's voice is more manly.

You're precious.

Literally, you're a fatass black chick.

Anywho, Vitiate still loses. Palpatine's Empire is just ridiculously better.

Millions of sith lords probably don't match up with technology and overwhelming numbers.

Indeed.

'Specially when those Sith start to defect in droves when they take a gander at the other mean robed guy with the bigger stick.

I don't think anyone makes sith lords quiver in fear quicker than Vitiate

Originally posted by Thor Is Girly
I don't think anyone makes sith lords quiver in fear quicker than Vitiate

They fear Vitiate because he's the biggest bully in the playground. This scenario assumes an even bigger prick is prowling around.

There'd prolly be a mass exodus off Dromund Kaas, flocking to Coruscant.

Acclamator star destroyer solos. The Empire by this time is able to built ships that have power outputs equivalent to Stars, and the Death Star was producing 3 million times more energy than our Sun. So the Sun Razers can go f*** themselves.

That's all they'd get the chance to fvck, really.

The Empire takes the Sith Empire to the curb due to technological advances.

I wonder what will happen once the majority of the Sith sense Sidious, however. Vitiate will see it as a challenge of course.

Also there'd be nothing stopping Palps from mounting an invasion of Droumund Kaas with 200 gigaton per shot Acclamators (not even throwing in the heavier weight vessels) and forcing all 12 Dark Councilors to bend the knee to him right then and there.