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http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u387/spotty3/Emperors_zpsaa6cc38a.jpg

Emperor Palpatine as of Return of the Jedi and Emperor Vitiate as of Tales of the Old Republic are whisked away through time and space to fight on the unfinished Death Star - within Palpatine's Throne Room.



They start 15 Feet apart and are Blood-lusted.

The two Emperors will battle it out to see who will rule over the Galaxy.

All out - who is superior?

Considering Emperor Palpatine was caught off gaurd by an injured, hulking-cyborg and Emperor Vitiate was caught off gaurd by an expertly-thrown lightsaber - I'd say their reactionary-abilities are about the same here.

So now it's a Force Battle of power and knowledge.

From those pictures.... It looks like Vitiate was just a knock-off of Palpatine.

Originally posted by Pwned
From those pictures.... It looks like Vitiate was just a knock-off of Palpatine.

- Welcome to the new Star Wars!

It looks like knock-off Palpatine wins here, though.

It seems Vitiate is indeed superior to this version of Sidious.

The arguments were pretty convincing on both sides.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The arguments were pretty convincing on both sides.

I really agree with your sentiment - I'd love to see what people think about this battle.

This is effectively a pure battle of power and knowledge, without any "speed blitzing" - and I don't think either side can win easily.

I personally don't know of any way Palpatine can overcome Vitiate, but it seems like perhaps Vitiate might be able to over-power him?

Again, it depends on how generous both sides want to be.

Originally posted by Rookwood
I really agree with your sentiment - I'd love to see what people think about this battle.

This is effectively a pure battle of power and knowledge, without any "speed blitzing" - and I don't think either side can win easily.

I personally don't know of any way Palpatine can overcome Vitiate, but it seems like perhaps Vitiate might be able to over-power him?
Vitiate is more lethal with the Force.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate is more lethal with the Force. And Palpatine is arguably stronger. I believe the quote of him being the most powerful still stands due to backtracking. I remember some thread with a debate on this, about how Vitiate's quote is for his era? Something about Palpatine's quote encompassing Vitiates time and being from Lucas himself or some shit. Idk. Don't care. Vitiate has the same facial structure as Palpatine in that picture. Stupid how they just copied him.

Originally posted by Rookwood
I really agree with your sentiment - I'd love to see what people think about this battle.

This is effectively a pure battle of power and knowledge, without any "speed blitzing"


You mean a battle without lightsaber's, or are you saying Palpatine doesn't get his speed at all here? Because speed is not limited to lightsaber combat.


Originally posted by Rookwood
but it seems like perhaps Vitiate might be able to over-power him?


How is that exactly? TP? TK? FL?

The only thing Sidious has on Vitiate is sabers

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate is more lethal with the Force. Can he drain a planet without any rituals like Palpatine? Can he summon a wormhole that could destroy an entire armada or tear off a planets surface?

Originally posted by jadams3928
The only thing Sidious has on Vitiate is sabers


And what exactly does Vitiate have on Sidious? Living longer?

Sabers is what it comes down to when two opponents are near equals in the force.

Originally posted by Pwned
And Palpatine is arguably stronger. I believe the quote of him being the most powerful still stands due to backtracking. I remember some thread with a debate on this, about how Vitiate's quote is for his era? Something about Palpatine's quote encompassing Vitiates time and being from Lucas himself or some shit. Idk. Don't care. Vitiate has the same facial structure as Palpatine in that picture. Stupid how they just copied him.
I don't buy this argument.

In a recent 'real-world perspective' based Star Wars book from Pablo Hidalgo, no Sith Lord has been declared most powerful.

People do not bother to ascertain if such quotes are in 'in-universe perspective' based sources or 'real-world perspective' based sources.

Also, this is a matter of subjective opinion.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Can he drain a planet without any rituals like Palpatine?
You are trying to make this feat look more impressive then it is. Nihilus trumps every Sith Lord in this aspect. Should we consider him more powerful then Palpatine?

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Can he summon a wormhole that could destroy an entire armada or tear off a planets surface?
To be honest, this is the only saving grace of Palpatine.

However, Vitiate has some skills of his own:

1- Could create phantoms/illusions with the Force during combat situations (very taxing feat mind you)
2- Demonstrated highest proficiency in FL
3- Could unleash powerful blasts of energies with bare hands (Exar Kun required amulets for this feat)
4- Arguably demonstrated highest proficiency in Mind Tricks/Telepathy
5- Possessed the ability to fight even in essence phase (Palpatine never demonstrated this ability)
6- Better defensive abilities then Palpatine's
7- Also have one of the most potent display of powers under his belt; purged an entire Dark Council with a single blast of a mysterious power described as flash of light.
8. Demonstrated relatively higher proficiency with TK then Palpatine; destroyed a gigantic Dark Temple and caused earthquakes in surroundings.

In addition, Vitiate was also natural with Force Drain/Sever Force techniques. When he was just 10 years old, he stripped Lord Dramath from his powers and mind. And he put his affinity with Force Drain to impressive use with the ritual he performed on Nathema.

Also, this isn't the peak of Vitiate. He was planning to make himself omnipotent and so powerful that he would be able to create Galaxies himself. Fortunately, he was stopped.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And what exactly does Vitiate have on Sidious? Living longer?

Sabers is what it comes down to when two opponents are near equals in the force.
See above.

Where are your sources for ANY of this?

EDIT: FAIL. I just noticed this is RoTJ Palpatine. How many of his DE powers does he have? By now he doesn't really get much. Apart from turning an entire legion or Stormtroopers to ash with one blast of lightning. Yeah, can't get much better with lightning that that, or a Sith Wyrm (I can't remember if that is canon or not. If it isn't, I retract it in advance)

If this is anything other than DE Sidious, he gets stomped.

Originally posted by Pwned
EDIT: FAIL. I just noticed this is RoTJ Palpatine. How many of his DE powers does he have? By now he doesn't really get much. Apart from turning an entire legion or Stormtroopers to ash with one blast of lightning. Yeah, can't get much better with lightning that that, or a Sith Wyrm (I can't remember if that is canon or not. If it isn't, I retract it in advance)

The only difference between the Emperor and the reborn Emperor is the ability to loose Force Storms (though The Book of Sith says he's been working on this particular power for decades).

That's not the only difference. Apparently, DE Sidious came up with some brand new, nifty techniques. Also, in a young body, he was a potent saber combatant, whereas ROTJ Sidious was not.

Originally posted by jadams3928
That's not the only difference. Apparently, DE Sidious came up with some brand new, nifty techniques.

If you're referring to the remark that he can invent new techniques at his leisure, it's an in-universe claim from The Dark Empire Sourcebook.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Also, in a young body, he was a potent saber combatant, whereas ROTJ Sidious was not.

There is no evidence for this. Dooku was eighty-years-old and still one of the finest duelists in galactic history, as was Yoda at eight-hundred and change.

The Emperor may very well not have honed his skills in the two decades he reigned, but that doesn't mean between his extraordinary reflexes and speed that he would not be a formidable duelist. We see in TFU that he still carries his lightsaber with him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If you're referring to the remark that he can invent new techniques at his leisure, it's an in-universe claim from The Dark Empire Sourcebook.


I can only imagine how much more superior Palpatine would be to Vitiate if we took that quote as fact, considering that the only difference between ROTJ Palpatine and DE Palpatine that has been shown, was his ability to destroy entire starfleets.

Seriously, Palpatine stomps Vitiate through sheer speed. He can easily evade most of Vitiate's force attacks while doing circles around him, dishing out his own force attacks. Vitiate would be so hardpressed trying to defend himself against Sidious' attacks that he wouldn't have time to dish out any attacks of his own. (If someone wants to convince me otherwise, I'd be happy to hear them out. An argument other than: "nuh uh, Palpatine can't outspeed Vitiate because Vitiate is powerful and he has powerful mind powers!" or something equally stupid)

Glad there's proof of this other than rampant fanboyism and stupidity. Here, let me try it. Vitiate mind rapes Sidous, destroys him with force lightning, a flash of light, or any other technique in his arsenal. See how stupid that sounded? Of course you don't

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Seriously, Palpatine stomps Vitiate through sheer speed. He can easily evade most of Vitiate's force attacks while doing circles around him, dishing out his own force attacks. Vitiate would be so hardpressed trying to defend himself against Sidious' attacks that he wouldn't have time to dish out any attacks of his own. (If someone wants to convince me otherwise, I'd be happy to hear them out. An argument other than: "nuh uh, Palpatine can't outspeed Vitiate because Vitiate is powerful and he has powerful mind powers!" or something equally stupid)

It took a lumbering injured-cyborg with low-testosterone to trudge up to Palpatine and toss him aside like useless trash.

I don't think RotJ Palpatine has any plausible speed advantage over Vitiate, here.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You mean a battle without lightsaber's, or are you saying Palpatine doesn't get his speed at all here? Because speed is not limited to lightsaber combat.

See my quote about Palpatine and the injured Tin-man, disposing of him, like so much useless compost.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

How is that exactly? TP? TK? FL?

Possibly any of the above.

Vitiate seemed to have Broly-esque developmental capacities as a Sith.

He was already rape-stomping people once he hit puberty, and then went on to rule an Empire of Force users, virtually unopposed.

At the point of his Peak in power, he's possibly more than a match for this somewhat physically-dilapidated Sidious.

I agree that a younger RotS Sidious could likely speed-blitz him - and DE Sidious would rape Vitiate like a cheap Vietnamese hooker.

But this particular Palpatine seems to be as lacking in the reactionary-capability department as much as Vitiate is.

This is a contest of power and knowledge - and it would seem Vitiate might be able to edge it out, here.

It is fact that precludes us from accepting the quote at face value. Not only is it entirely in-universe, but the implied ease with which the Emperor is alleged to create Force techniques is inconsistent with even his arguably unparalleled mastery. There's an implicit no-limits fallacy to it: if he could create new techniques at leisure, why couldn't he stop the decay of his sabotaged clone bodies? Why couldn't he invent a technique to overwhelm Empatajayos Brand's attempts to contain his essence? Or displace Luke's personality and inhabit his fully mature body as opposed to settling for the newborn Anakin Solo.

Regardless, feat-to-feat, the Emperor still enjoys an advantage over Vitiate.



Honestly, I doubt that this would really be the case, but yes, in terms of sheer evidence and excluding deduction and inference, you're right.



As I recall, a lot of that has been seriously contended by you quite recently.





Definitely a damning moment on ol' Palpatine's part, but it was hardly a duel or even an actual contest. The Emperor's utter focus was on Luke and Vader's betrayal was unexpected. It was clearly circumstantial. Embarrassing, yes, but all evidence indicates Vader would be unable to reproduce that outcome in a general match, with the Emperor's attention fixated on him.



Feat-to-feat, yes he does, unless we have reason to believe the Emperor's speed reduced dramatically in 20 years.



According to an unverified legend.



Impressive, certainly, but he suffered betrayals and attempts on his life.



All possible.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Glad there's proof of this other than rampant fanboyism and stupidity.


LMAO. Proof of what, retard? The burden of proof would be on you to prove that Vitiate can react to Palpatine's speed. Palpatine speed is far superior, as is his reaction speed considering he was reacting to opponents who stalemated him in sheer speed. You haven't given one speed feat from Vitiate that suggests he can compete with Sidious in sheer speed. The only thing you've argued is, "nuh uh Vitiate is more powerful than B-team therefore he's faster." Well sorry, idiot, that's not proof that he can react to Palpatine's speed.


Originally posted by jadams3928
Vitiate mind rapes


Not if Sidious mind rapes him first. Speed is the issue here lol.

You also ignore the fact that Palpatine himself is also an extremely potent telepath, with one of the strongest wills in the mythos, being able to will the force out of balance (along with Plagueis). Not only that, Palpatine has shown telepathic resistance even at a young age, before he recieved any force training at all. It would be a waste of time for Vitiate to try to mind dominate in the middle of battle


Originally posted by jadams3928
destroys him with force lightning


Not if Sidious can attack him with his lightning first, dumbass.


Originally posted by jadams3928
a flash of light


Quote with context of this ability?

I can just as easily say Palpatine can open a wormhole on Vitiate, seeing how he was already a practictioner of this ability as of ROTJ, and even used it to transfer his own essence accross space.


Originally posted by jadams3928
or any other technique in his arsenal


Palpatine has shrugged off an explosion that destroyed his tower on the Death Star. What can Vitiate dish out that would be able to take Palpatine down? Assuming Vitiate is fast enough.


Originally posted by jadams3928
See how stupid that sounded?


Yeah, but I'm not surprised since it's coming from a sad fanboy like you.

I think Tempest was being nice when he said your grasp of logic is far beyond idiocy. But he knows you better than I do, so IDK. But either you're an idiot, or just a huge fanboy. It's one or the other. Which one is it?

Errbody needs to let the fanboy thing go.

Some people have one character's name in their user title, others create their accounts specifically to exclusively support one character and his faction, and so on. It manifests in many forms.

Don't know why people are being caustic and hostile unprovoked, either. Take a good long look in the mirror and let it go, my sons.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It is fact that precludes us from accepting the quote at face value. Not only is it entirely in-universe, but the implied ease with which the Emperor is alleged to create Force techniques is inconsistent with even his arguably unparalleled mastery. There's an implicit no-limits fallacy to it: if he could create new techniques at leisure, why couldn't he stop the decay of his sabotaged clone bodies? Why couldn't he invent a technique to overwhelm Empatajayos Brand's attempts to contain his essence? Or displace Luke's personality and inhabit his fully mature body as opposed to settling for the newborn Anakin Solo.


That's why I said if we took it as fact.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
Honestly, I doubt that this would really be the case, but yes, in terms of sheer evidence and excluding deduction and inference, you're right.


Probably not, but the Vitiate fanboys are being unreasonable. And my claims have more to go by, so I'm sticking to it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Errbody needs to let the fanboy thing go.

Some people have one character's name in their user title, others create their accounts specifically to exclusively support one character and his faction, and so on. It manifests in many forms.

Don't know why people are being caustic and hostile unprovoked, either. Take a good long look in the mirror and let it go, my sons.


Actually, you're right but they're not being civil so why should I?

Am I sounding immature? lol

In my eyes, no. But in the eyes of mature folk, yes. lol

I wouldn't back down either until the other side did, hence why I'm ordering an immediate ceasefire by all parties.

lol

What's your opinion on the thread?

I'm not sure.

I've already called you a pathetic fanboy. I appreciate you repeating the insult back to me. That's what morons do when they have nothing else.



I've yet to see anyone take you seriously on here so please, continue amusing us with your hilariously retarded posts

@Tempest and Rookwood

What feats can Emperor Vitiate conclusively claim
(1) bereft the aid of ritual, meditation, or other preparatory measures
(2) clear of a world or structure inferred or explicitly stated to be strong in the dark side
(3) without the tenuity of hearsay, legend, or ambiguous circumstance

that
(a) warrant his repute as a formidable top-tier combatant?
(b) Emperor Palpatine hasn't done first or better?

Originally posted by Eminence
@Tempest and Rookwood

What feats can Emperor Vitiate conclusively claim
(1) bereft the aid of ritual, meditation, or other preparatory measures
(2) clear of a world or structure inferred or explicitly stated to be strong in the dark side
(3) without the tenuity of hearsay, legend, or ambiguous circumstance

that
(a) warrant his repute as a formidable top-tier combatant?
(b) Emperor Palpatine hasn't done first or better?

To my knowledge, none.

Damn, cocaine makes my hands tingle..

Originally posted by jadams3928
I've already called you a pathetic fanboy. I appreciate you repeating the insult back to me. That's what morons do when they have nothing else.


All that matters is: you fit the term far more than I do. But if calling me it first makes you feel like you have one-up on me, then give yourself a big pat on the back.

Vitiate seems to fit into a niche as a potent Force-user who is nonetheless a fairly inept combatant. I don't think he's undeserving of most of the accolades heaped upon him by the narration and character testimony in Revan and The Old Republic, the various sourcebooks you've all consulted, and whatever he is accorded in the Timeline entries, but with deference to context they seem to speak to scholarship and prowess ill-suited for confrontation. Like Old Daka's necromancy, Joruus C'baoth or Andeddu's telepathy, and the mastery of any number of practiced alchemists or users of dark side arcana, some esoteric pursuits do not necessarily pay dividends against a sufficiently capable foe, and perhaps like Abeloth not all Force-sensitives have the knack for combat you would expect given their potential. Vitiate has a general efficacy enabled by his talents; that he overpowered Revan when the efforts of Lady Nyriss were so contemptuously rebuked is a noteworthy testament to that. Yet what facilitated that favorable exchange was arrogance on Revan's part following a contest that was not one sided despite the advantages Vitiate enjoyed. I think it's reasonable to conclude that when the deck isn't favorably stacked, he's simply not as dangerous as Palpatine, Luke, and others.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
All that matters is: you fit the term far more than I do. But if calling me it first makes you feel like you have one-up on me, then give yourself a big pat on the back.

Except the opposite is true. Good show

Originally posted by Eminence
Vitiate seems to fit into a niche as a potent Force-user who is nonetheless a fairly inept combatant. I don't think he's undeserving of most of the accolades heaped upon him by the narration and character testimony in Revan and The Old Republic, the various sourcebooks you've all consulted, and whatever he is accorded in the Timeline entries, but with deference to context they seem to speak to scholarship and prowess ill-suited for confrontation. Like Old Daka's necromancy, Joruus C'baoth or Andeddu's telepathy, and the mastery of any number of practiced alchemists or users of dark side arcana, some esoteric pursuits do not necessarily pay dividends against a sufficiently capable foe, and perhaps like Abeloth not all Force-sensitives have the knack for combat you would expect given their potential. Vitiate has a general efficacy enabled by his talents; that he overpowered Revan when the efforts of Lady Nyriss were so contemptuously rebuked is a noteworthy testament to that. Yet what facilitated that favorable exchange was arrogance on Revan's part following a contest that was not one sided despite the advantages Vitiate enjoyed. I think it's reasonable to conclude that when the deck isn't favorably stacked, he's simply not as dangerous as Palpatine, Luke, and others.

What about the purge of both dark councils as well as his destruction of the jedi strike team?

Originally posted by Eminence
Vitiate seems to fit into a niche as a potent Force-user who is nonetheless a fairly inept combatant. I don't think he's undeserving of most of the accolades heaped upon him by the narration and character testimony in Revan and The Old Republic, the various sourcebooks you've all consulted, and whatever he is accorded in the Timeline entries, but with deference to context they seem to speak to scholarship and prowess ill-suited for confrontation. Like Old Daka's necromancy, Joruus C'baoth or Andeddu's telepathy, and the mastery of any number of practiced alchemists or users of dark side arcana, some esoteric pursuits do not necessarily pay dividends against a sufficiently capable foe, and perhaps like Abeloth not all Force-sensitives have the knack for combat you would expect given their potential. Vitiate has a general efficacy enabled by his talents; that he overpowered Revan when the efforts of Lady Nyriss were so contemptuously rebuked is a noteworthy testament to that. Yet what facilitated that favorable exchange was arrogance on Revan's part following a contest that was not one sided despite the advantages Vitiate enjoyed. I think it's reasonable to conclude that when the deck isn't favorably stacked, he's simply not as dangerous as Palpatine, Luke, and others.

Faunus neglected the fact that Revan had to channel equal parts light and dark for the fight to not be one sided.

That's not really a fact.

It is actually. Vitiate would have stomped him x 2 combo if he hadn't done that iirc. Unless that technique wasn't the method of resisting Vitiates domination that he previously indicated.

Originally posted by Eminence
Vitiate seems to fit into a niche as a potent Force-user who is nonetheless a fairly inept combatant. I don't think he's undeserving of most of the accolades heaped upon him by the narration and character testimony in Revan and The Old Republic, the various sourcebooks you've all consulted, and whatever he is accorded in the Timeline entries, but with deference to context they seem to speak to scholarship and prowess ill-suited for confrontation. Like Old Daka's necromancy, Joruus C'baoth or Andeddu's telepathy, and the mastery of any number of practiced alchemists or users of dark side arcana, some esoteric pursuits do not necessarily pay dividends against a sufficiently capable foe, and perhaps like Abeloth not all Force-sensitives have the knack for combat you would expect given their potential. Vitiate has a general efficacy enabled by his talents; that he overpowered Revan when the efforts of Lady Nyriss were so contemptuously rebuked is a noteworthy testament to that. Yet what facilitated that favorable exchange was arrogance on Revan's part following a contest that was not one sided despite the advantages Vitiate enjoyed. I think it's reasonable to conclude that when the deck isn't favorably stacked, he's simply not as dangerous as Palpatine, Luke, and others.
So this is a display of ineptness in combat:

bq5X3F3g69c

???

And the fact that he survived as the supreme ruler of a very powerful Sith Empire for a long long time and several attempts on his life?

I think that many are unable to comprehend Vitiate's talents and abilities.

I agree. Vitiate didn't survive that long by being a shitty fighter.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It is actually. Vitiate would have stomped him x 2 combo if he hadn't done that iirc. Unless that technique wasn't the method of resisting Vitiates domination that he previously indicated.

This is completely speculative.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I agree. Vitiate didn't survive that long by being a shitty fighter.

This is textbook false equivalency. There's a veritable chasm between "shitty fighter" and on par with the Emperor. Vitiate may not be the former, true, but that doesn't mean he qualifies for the latter.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are trying to make this feat look more impressive then it is. Nihilus trumps every Sith Lord in this aspect. Should we consider him more powerful then Palpatine?
Um you do know that unlike Nihilus, Palpatine has full control over the same power that Nihilus has absolutely no control over?

And yes, you're right, both didn't need rituals to do such feats.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Um you do know that unlike Nihilus, Palpatine has full control over the same power that Nihilus has absolutely no control over?

And yes, you're right, both didn't need rituals to do such feats.

Uh Palpatine can't "Eat" the force. Slowly draining the inhabitants of Byss for years isn't anything impressive.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Uh Palpatine can't "Eat" the force. Slowly draining the inhabitants of Byss for years isn't anything impressive. Uh Nihilus doesn't "eat" the force either if you actually played the game. And considering that palpatines mere presence was leeching life out of the entire planet over time, i see no reason why he couldn't simply quickly drain it all at once had he wanted to.

As I recall, the Hero of Tython and co. sense that the Emperor is waiting for them and they're walking into a trap. While I won't suggest the Emperor's Force-lightning was bolstered by ritual it stands to reason that he had ample time to gather himself for a stronger effort. Even if he didn't and that was all dredged up then and there, I'm not sure what the implications are supposed to be (although I do appreciate you addressing my question). I'm in agreement with you that the Emperor can dispatch lesser threats with relative impunity, what's up for contention is how he fares against those individuals whose command of the Force (in this arena) rivals his own and have proven to be fighters of appropriate ability and repute.

I consider the dismantling of Mace Windu's company at the hands of Palpatine to be a landmark in lightsaber prowess, but I don't apply his performance in that particular scenario to all others irrespective of his foes, because a suitably formidable swordsman - like Yoda, and to a lesser extent Windu himself - will still hold his own. Likewise, that Emperor Vitiate could overpower Revan or four lesser Jedi (< himself and his tier) has little bearing when he's facing down Palpatine.


If it was neglected it's because I find this incorrect and irrelevant. Nowhere to my knowledge is it confirmed that channeling the Force in this manner is the only way a Force-user (or even Revan) can elude or resist the Emperor's will, it's simply what he chose to do and it worked. The possibility that it was the best or only option available to him in that setting doesn't warrant all this qualification anyway; it wasn't the only time in that fight he put the Emperor on his ass. Ergo, this is probably not an issue someone as strong in Force and mind as Palpatine needs to be concerned with.




Perhaps " inept" would have been a better choice of words. Given the elaboration I'd hoped you all would get my meaning anyway.

Well, you're right in terms of conclusively, but it is reasonable to assume that he dispatched the dark council by himself in his throne room, while having some weird technique to install the other dark council "in a flash of light". And while you're correct about the implications about facing someone like Palpatine, the reverse can be said. Palpatine has never faced anyone with the power of Vitiate, especially mind domination.

I did not say it was the only way, but we've only seen one individual (revan) resist Vitiate's mind domination, and he needed perfect parts light and dark side to do it. Palpatine has never faced a foe like Vitiate, especially when TK is involved, so simply being powerful in the force is unlikely to be enough.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
i see no reason why he couldn't simply quickly drain it all at once had he wanted to.

Palpatine could quickly drain the entire Universe if he wanted to. The only reason Nihilus could drain planets is because Palpatine taught him.

But the Nihilus fanboys will never admit that.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Palpatine could quickly drain the entire Universe if he wanted to. The only reason Nihilus could drain planets is because Palpatine taught him.

But the Nihilus fanboys will never admit that. SHUT THE F*CK UP







It was BANDON that taught Nihilus that! Lord Bandon is the most powerful EVER!



Anyways, hadn't Palpatine turned an entire legion of stormtroopers to ash with one blast of lightning by now? I recall a feat along those lines.

Originally posted by Eminence
As I recall, the Hero of Tython and co. sense that the Emperor is waiting for them and they're walking into a trap. While I won't suggest the Emperor's Force-lightning was bolstered by ritual it stands to reason that he had ample time to gather himself for a stronger effort.


That kind of ignores the fact, that the first barrage of lightning he fires at the Jedi is - at least partitially - absorbed / redirected by the Masters. It's the second barrage that overpowers them, and he neither had time to bolster that up with a ritual, nor had he time to "charge" after the first barrage was fired.



I'm somewhat surprised that you consider the likes of Malak, Revan, the Exile and Lord Scourge as "lesser threats". Especially after reading Darth Revan, I was under the impression that even when Revan and Scourge confronted Vitiate together with the Exile, neither Revan nor Scourge was certain of their victory. Hence Scourge betraying the two Jedi. And they were all three standing right in front of him, their lightsaber in hand while he was unarmed (if my memory of that scene isn't wrong).

And I'm also uncertain, that there is an individual whos command of the Force does rival that of Vitiate. The guy absorbed an entire planet worth of force energy, including the power of 8,000 Sith Lords.



The dismantling of Mace Windu's company is either a landmark in terms of deception (interpretation of the fight in the RotS novel) or a demonstration of Force speed (as can be found in the Darth Plagueis novel as well), but certainly no testament to Sidious skill when using a lightsaber. The two instances in which he goes up against expert duellist in a one-on-one situation, he loses his weapon in under a minute (seen against Mace, claimed by the script regarding the fight with Yoda). In that regard, I would say that Sidious and Vitiate both would use their command of the Force to enhance their combat efficiency, rather than relying on actual duelling skill, as people like Dooku or Mace would. Neither of them is an actual "fighter".



If I'm not mistaken, the few instances in which Vitiate's ability of mind-control was "resisted" people broke free of the grasp once and could resist it later. I haven't seen anybody simply "resisting" it. And Revan just managed to put Vitiate on his ass, because the latter was focusing entirely on attempting to mind-dominate Revan, knowing that he was - apparently easily - capable of doing so before.
And you really think offers that much more strength in the Force and especially mind in comparison to Revan, that Vitiate would find it impossible to execute his mind-domination? Somewhat hard to imagine, though I don't think he would even try something like this against individuals like Sidious.

It certainly precludes a ritual, but he definitely charges up between the 2:20-2:24 mark. We see him coil and gather the energy before it leaves his hands.

voh2VOb-B0w



Vitiate never dispatched any of them but Revan in combat. As Eminence explained, it was hardly a one-sided contest and Revan was back on his feet moments after foolishly trying to literally manhandle Vitiate's barrage of Force lightning after foolishly allowing him to channel the power to begin with.



An uncertainty they shared with Vitiate, if the text is to be believed.



Not quite. Scourge had a vision that the Jedi who triumphed over Vitiate would not be Revan. If the text is to be believed, Vitiate "needed" the distraction afforded by Scourge's treacherous murder of Surik to incapacitate Revan.



As part of a ritual that at least two sources (The Old Republic Encyclopedia & the in-game codex) alleges was a cooperative effort between Vitiate and the Sith victims.



Losing to Mace and Yoda hardly disqualifies one as an expert duelist.



I'm not sure.



His lethality clearly owes much to his command of the Force, but in Maul's estimation, Sidious is extremely efficient as a swordsman and (elsewhere) refers to his prowess as "elegant."



Star Wars Insider #113 refers to Palpatine as a "stunning fighter." Probably an allusion to his political cunning, though.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Well, you're right in terms of conclusively, but it is reasonable to assume that he dispatched the dark council by himself in his throne room, while having some weird technique to install the other dark council "in a flash of light". And while you're correct about the implications about facing someone like Palpatine, the reverse can be said. Palpatine has never faced anyone with the power of Vitiate, especially mind domination.

I did not say it was the only way, but we've only seen one individual (revan) resist Vitiate's mind domination, and he needed perfect parts light and dark side to do it. Palpatine has never faced a foe like Vitiate, especially when TK is involved, so simply being powerful in the force is unlikely to be enough.

I'd really like to b1tchslap you.
Eminence and you have been bitter foes for years, but you're way nicer to him than me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It certainly precludes a ritual, but he definitely charges up between the 2:20-2:24 mark. We see him coil and gather the energy before it leaves his hands.

voh2VOb-B0w


I was more thinking about a prolonged gathering of power before a force attack is unleashed. Something that would require a little bit more time than four seconds. At least I was under the impression, that Eminence had something like that in mind.



Do I need to remind you, that the first time Malak and Revan confronted Vitiate, he didn't even need to fight them (according to Revan's own recollection of the fight) but utterly mindraped them.
And when Revan managed to get an attack in on Vitiate, it is noted - even by Revan - that this was just possible because the Sith Emperor was focusing on attempting to dominate Revan's mind again, probably because he knew that he had been capable to do that before. Had Vitiate chosen to simply utilize his force abilities (e.g. lightning) against the trio as he did agains the Jedi strike team, I don't think Revan, the Exile and Scourge would have stood a change, provided how Vitiate leveled Revan's force defense with an attack before.



Where does the text give any account of Vitiate's access to the situation?



I wonder what text you did read.

"A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan treid to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been. Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor pured more and more power into him" - Darth Revan, p.321

Vitiate is quite capable of completely overpowering Revan's force defense, just not with bolts of dark side energy, that he did fire "in quick succession. In the direct confrontation, he still seems rather certain about emerging victorious from that battle. You are, apparently hinting at this here:

"The distraction gave the Emperor the opportunity he needed, and he unleashed another blast of lightning into the Jedi's chest" - Darth Revan, p.325

But he had already downed Revan before. Why not do it again? Why not unleashing the full extend of his abilities against the trio, as he does with the Jedi strike team in the video above?



Does the "how" somehow change the result?



Correct.
But then, Sidious himself had a master, to whom "lightsaber duels were tedious affairs, full of wasted emotions and needless acrobatics" (Darth Plagueis, iBook, p.80). And in fact, the only instances of actual combat training we witness, is Sidious dismantling some droids (with blasters) and him and Plagueis reducing a tribe of warriors to electro-shocked victims. And Plagueis himself also decided his duel against Venamis making use of his (controlled) fury, rather than of lightsaber expertise. And all we see Sidious do with his lightsaber is pretty much dependent on the (force aided) speed of the Sith Lord, rather than elaborated lightsaber manouvers. After all, we know, that he - unlike the Jedi in his time - didn't have much combat experience when it came to lightsaber duels. As it seems, not even in the form of sparing fights, since their is no account of him fighting Maul or Plagueis in practice fights, while Dooku even notices at one point, that honing his lightsaber abilities is probably beneath Sidious.




The latter statements don't contradict the former idea. Sidious is certainly efficient when using his weapon and there are probably much and more duellists, that he could overcome with his abilities. Yet, he lacks the "drill" of people who dedicated their lives to lightsaber combat (as Dooku did for example) and, in consequence, might lose a lightsaber duel to a better trained duellist, even if being the (vastly) superior force user. That's what we see, when Mace disarms him and it's a possibility that is mentioned in other sources (e.g. Path of Destruction, when Kas'im starts utilizing two sabers against the otherwise superior Bane).



In a realm, where every second being capable of holding a lightsaber in hand is dubbed "master swordsman", I'm somewhat reluctant to base my judgement on such quotes. And Vitiate is, likewise, no pushover when it comes to direct action. Especially if you consider that most of the action in ToR is just him acting through his "voice", while a part of his essence (and power) resides within his Hands, his original body and his "children". Hence it's somewhat difficult to grasp the full extend of his abilities.

I've long since accepted his blatant homosexuality and obsession with me. But him and I are a little older now.

That's too bad, I like mine young.

In the interest of keeping this concise:

1. When I make note of "lesser " the intent is not to denigrate characters but to illustrate, with respect to Emperors Vitiate and Palpatine and those whom we can all agree rank highly in an otherwise loose hierarchy, that the conquest of even a collective of relatively (as in relative to the aforementioned parties) Force-weak or otherwise outclassed foes does not necessarily reflect the likely outcome of a contest between peers. Nai, you make this point yourself: Palpatine slaughters the notoriously martial Kolar, ace pilot Tiin, and a highly accomplished Kit Fisto in seconds - that this is indicative of speed or ferocity stemming from the Force rather than technical proficiency is not at issue - but in Yoda and the Vaapad-immersed Windu he finds and is stymied by swordsmen of his caliber. The same should be expected of Emperor Vitiate and whatever aspects correspond.

Concerning "the likes of Malak, Revan, the Exile and Lord Scourge":
a. Revan had already been precluded; I've made clear that I don't think the Emperor was acting with any sort of impunity in his contest with Revan, and contextually made a note of demarcating him from the "four lesser Jedi" felled on the space station. They are considered together only to observe that neither party is the equivalent of Palpatine.
b. As I recall neither Scourge nor the Exile makes an objective assessment of the odds against Vitiate with Revan at their side, but Scourge is momentarily waylaid and subsequently driven to action by an influx of premonitions, not fear. I'm not sure what Malak has to offer here.

2. My stance on Emperor Vitiate's efficacy in combat against a comparably powerful foe on neutral ground is still rooted here:

A holistic and contextual look at this Emperor indicates to me that his centuries of scholarship and reflection better serve practices that are of little utility in this arena. I agree that he is gifted; that his long life and exploration of the dark side has granted him a skillset that is among the best in a setting that favors its application; and that despite his relative (as in relative to both his own likely potential and what is exhibited by others of comparable standing) lack of martial prowess he is capable of overwhelming most characters through brute force. But I don't think what works against most characters will work against Palpatine, and I have yet to see evidence that without a stacked deck Emperor Vitiate can really match him.


Eh? Genuine: has Vitiate done something with telekinesis that you think Darth Vader, Yoda or Starkiller can't?

... d-dad?


As per your wishes, I just finished Plagueis. Didn't expect it to be so comprehensive.

Originally posted by Eminence
As per your wishes, I just finished Plagueis. Didn't expect it to be so comprehensive.

You have done well, my servant.

I expect you to give me your full thoughts. Be vivid.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is completely speculative.

How so?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is textbook false equivalency. There's a veritable chasm between "shitty fighter" and on par with the Emperor. Vitiate may not be the former, true, but that doesn't mean he qualifies for the latter.

Legend and myself were referring to where Faunus called Vitiate a 'fairly inept combatant.' I disagree, Vitiate has whooped enough ass over the millennia to preclude that description. I get that he didn't mean it to a certain extent, but I still feel that its disingenuous.

Originally posted by Eminence
Eh? Genuine: has Vitiate done something with telekinesis that you think Darth Vader, Yoda or Starkiller can't?

He disintegrated T3-M4 and demolished the Dark Temple while dying from a saber wound. That doesn't necessarily put him above those gaudy heights but he's still in the upper echelons.

In a clash among Force adepts, four seconds is a veritable eternity. You need only refer to the fate of Masters Kolar & Tiin for that truth.



Do I need to remind you that Malak and Revan were being led into an elaborate trap concocted by Vitiate and executed by Yaris, his captain of the guard?





That's possible, but then it doesn't explain Vitiate's hesitation later in the duel. Regardless, the fact that the Jedi strike team had to weather the initial storm of lightning might very well be the reason they succumbed so easily to the second salvo.



It doesn't have any passages from his viewpoint.





The same one you claimed to have read yourself.



That was when Revan arrogantly tried to absorb them barehanded. Even if Vitiate is capable of overwhelming a character's Force defense, that character may not afford him the opportunity to do so.



Not really. His own words hint at neutrality on the subject: "That remains to be seen."

You are, apparently hinting at this here:



Because there was no guarantee of success without Revan trying to take it on barehanded?



Why would absorbing the essence of other Sith be impressive if they submitted to the process?



Plagueis's disinterest in the field notwithstanding, the sentence goes on to claim that Tenebrous had proclaimed him "a master" of the art. Clearly among Force adepts skill is not contingent solely on their passion for it. Though no one argues that the Emperor relishes crossing blades with an enemy.



The quality of his technique, as suggested by Maul, suggests some measure of skill as a swordsman that does not owe completely to Force enhanced physicality.



That's your prerogative, but that risks running into our persistent impasse.



No one has seriously contended that he's a pushover. As I explained to Nephthys, there is a vast difference between "pushover" and "Palpatine." Vitiate may not qualify for either.



Weren't they created after the duel in Revan?

If Legend and yourself could be bothered to consider the context (namely the chunk of qualifier in the proximate paragraph) you probably wouldn't, although I might just be underestimating the passion this topic elicits. I'm sorry my indiscretion has so affronted you.

@Tempest:

You ask too much. Suffice to say I am highly impressed by the integration of so much extant material. The politicking was engaging, too. I don't think I'll be able to rewatch the prequel trilogy (Clones largely excepted) without the events of this book coloring a very positive reinterpretation.

Originally posted by Eminence
1. When I make note of "lesser " the intent is not to denigrate characters but to illustrate, with respect to Emperors Vitiate and Palpatine and those whom we can all agree rank highly in an otherwise loose hierarchy, that the conquest of even a collective of relatively (as in relative to the aforementioned parties) Force-weak or otherwise outclassed foes does not necessarily reflect the likely outcome of a contest between peers.


This far, I can agree with your stance, but after this, our views do differ:



The difference here is, that the, while the Jedi accomplishing Mace had some renown concering their skill with a lightsaber , they weren't known as power houses in the force. And here, the situation that Vitiate found himself in, when confronting Revan, the Exile and Scourge was different.
Revan was a living legend. That he was capable of overpowering Darth Nyriss with relative ease is testament to his own abilities with the Force (especially considering he had just gone through years of medical intoxication and a sever mental trauma, when his memories returned). Yet, he doesn't even register in comparison to Vitiate, once the letter decides to throw "everything he had" at Revan. Likewise the Exile, who has - after all - rid the Galaxy of Darth Nihilus and was a Wound in the Force, wasn't registered as a threat by Vitiate (and viewed herself as far below Revan in terms of force mastery). Add Scourge, who, despite lacking in the Force mastery department, had a gift of feeding of his opponents powers in combat. Even confronting that trio - where Revan alone would pose a threat to most Sith / Jedi in the mythos, Vitiate seems certain that he will walk away from that fight alive.



Scourge thought, that there was no way to determine the more likely outcome of the fight. Revan, when imprisoned by Vitiate, comes to the same conclusion. When Revan and Malak went to confront Vitiate for the first time, he simply mindraped them, not even granting them a "fight".



Ah, Faunus. What would happen, if you'd apply the same questions you list here to Sidious feats?



The same could be said about Sidious, aside from the fact, that he had 1200 years less time to explore the Dark Side.



Again, I can just repeat my question: What would happen to the feats of the Emperor, if you would analyze them following the same questions, you want people apply to Vitiate's feats. I doubt there would be much left to put Sidious on a pedestal, starting with the fact that, apparently, Plagueis and Sidious have managed to generate an Galaxy spanning condition favoring the actions of Sith, while in turn deminishing the abilities of the Jedi to touch the Force . Applying the questions above, all of Sidious feats did benefit from that circumstance , while later feats would always be performed with additional power drawn from the people on Byss .

Originally posted by Eminence
If Legend and yourself could be bothered to consider the context (namely the chunk of qualifier in the proximate paragraph) you probably wouldn't, although I might just be underestimating the passion this topic elicits. I'm sorry my indiscretion has so affronted you.


You also said he was a scholar ill-suited to confrontation. This offends me deeply. Expect my Jihad in the mail shortly.

Originally posted by Nai
The dismantling of Mace Windu's company is either a landmark in terms of deception (interpretation of the fight in the RotS novel) or a demonstration of Force speed (as can be found in the Darth Plagueis novel as well), but certainly no testament to Sidious skill when using a lightsaber. The two instances in which he goes up against expert duellist in a one-on-one situation, he loses his weapon in under a minute (seen against Mace, claimed by the script regarding the fight with Yoda). In that regard, I would say that Sidious and Vitiate both would use their command of the Force to enhance their combat efficiency, rather than relying on actual duelling skill, as people like Dooku or Mace would. Neither of them is an actual "fighter".


Palpatine's ability to apply his tremendous speed skillfully in a lightsaber duel is what makes him one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in the entire mythos. He is an "actual fighter."

correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that Vitiate can replicate Palpatine's lightsaber feats?

Originally posted by Pwned
SHUT THE F*CK UP

It was BANDON that taught Nihilus that! Lord Bandon is the most powerful EVER!


Haha. Sore Nihilus fanboy.


Palpatine with one blast of Force Lightning, could convert Nihilus into ash.

His Lightning far exceeds the destructive output of the Mass Shadow Generator that ripped Malachor V asunder.

Search your feelings, you know them to be true..

Originally posted by Rookwood
Haha. Sore Nihilus fanboy.


Palpatine with one blast of Force Lightning, could convert Nihilus into ash.

His Lightning far exceeds the destructive output of the Mass Shadow Generator that ripped Malachor V asunder.

Search your feelings, you know them to be true.. I, uh... Think you misinterpreted my post there.

You should check out the names. I said it was Lord Bandon. All bow before the might of Bandon.



FYI, I hate Nihilus. Over-hyped guy with next to no feats.

Originally posted by Pwned
I, uh... Think you misinterpreted my post there.

You should check out the names. I said it was Lord Bandon. All bow before the might of Bandon.

It's all a matter of transference - your faith in Bandon, leads you to believe that Nihilus must surely be more powerful than Palpatine - when there's no proof for that.

..besides Canon.

But that's another story, for another time.



Originally posted by Pwned

FYI, I hate Nihilus. Over-hyped guy with next to no feats.

You're touting him as a champion student of Bandon, pretending he's greater than the man a half-dead cyborg chucked down a shaft, like a bag of trash.

And Nihilus is over-hyped.

I mean, what, tanking a blast that ripped a Planet into pieces? - Ripping a monstrous ship out of the grasp of a planetary gravity-well? - Killing entire Planets full of people in seconds, with a single utterance?


- mere childsplay.

Nihilus does not possess the keen patience of Palpatine, to be able to slowly absorb the lifeforce of a planet, over a period of decades.

And I'd love to see how the weight of a Warship, stuck within the Gravity-Signature of a Planet - can compare - to the weight of three - count 'em, three floating senate pods.

It can't - those senate pods are the epitome of telekinetic-strength.

Warship. Pah.

A maelstrom-wormhole of Dark side energy - enshrouded in Armor and a cloak.

That's not cool - what is cool, is being a wrinkly little man, with bowel-incontinence, who constantly has to live off of a diet of prunes and oatmeal.

Palpatine rocks - while Darth "I'm the embodiment of the death of the Force" Nihilus, is merely along for the ride.

So the next time you think of touting Nihilus as a great student of Bandon - think again, because even the great Bandon, will one day have to invite Palpatine to come live with him upon his retirement

- And Bandon will be stuck, changing the diapers of Palpatine, and feeding him prunes - for the thousands of years Palpatine expects to live with him.

Palpatine always wins.

haermm

Good to see BattlemasterRookwood's mancrush is still going strong.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
haermm

Good to see BattlemasterRookwood's mancrush is still going strong.

Don't take it personally. I like you.

But I was just having a bit of fun, here.

You have insulted the Lord Almighty. Lord Bandon shall take his revenge. You can't get better than him.

I mean, he pushed a guy into a computer for no reason. You can't be more badass or all powerful than that.

Originally posted by Pwned
You have insulted the Lord Almighty. Lord Bandon shall take his revenge. You can't get better than him.

I mean, he pushed a guy into a computer for no reason. You can't be more badass or all powerful than that.



That is somewhat true.

Originally posted by Eminence
@Tempest and Rookwood
First of all, you are seeking advice from the wrong guys for this particular character.

Originally posted by Eminence
What feats can Emperor Vitiate conclusively claim
(1) bereft the aid of ritual, meditation, or other preparatory measures
Every individual needs to 'prepare' for combat to achieve best possible results. Otherwise, fights can needlessely drag and unexpected can happen in such scenarios.

While you intend to scrutinize Vitiate's abilities in this aspect, you should do the same for other characters as well.

Originally posted by Eminence
(2) clear of a world or structure inferred or explicitly stated to be strong in the dark side
This confrontation:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So this is a display of ineptness in combat:

bq5X3F3g69c

???

And the fact that he survived as the supreme ruler of a very powerful Sith Empire for a long long time and several attempts on his life?

I think that many are unable to comprehend Vitiate's talents and abilities.

- took place aboard a space station. Good enough for you?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
(3) without the tenuity of hearsay, legend, or ambiguous circumstance
Many aspects of the legend have been validated in other sources. Just consult Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia for this.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
that
(a) warrant his repute as a formidable top-tier combatant?
Yes.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
(b) Emperor Palpatine hasn't done first or better?
Emperor Palpatine, regardless of all his power, isn't without weaknesses or unstoppable. He has his share of failures too.

Palpatine's greatest combat feats are with the Lightsaber. In contrast, Vitiate's greatest combat feats are with the Force.

Originally posted by Eminence
1. When I make note of "lesser " the intent is not to denigrate characters but to illustrate, with respect to Emperors Vitiate and Palpatine and those whom we can all agree rank highly in an otherwise loose hierarchy, that the conquest of even a collective of relatively (as in relative to the aforementioned parties) Force-weak or otherwise outclassed foes does not necessarily reflect the likely outcome of a contest between peers. Nai, you make this point yourself: Palpatine slaughters the notoriously martial Kolar, ace pilot Tiin, and a highly accomplished Kit Fisto in seconds - that this is indicative of speed or ferocity stemming from the Force rather than technical proficiency is not at issue - but in Yoda and the Vaapad-immersed Windu he finds and is stymied by swordsmen of his caliber. The same should be expected of Emperor Vitiate and whatever aspects correspond.
So you are implying that Vitiate cannot handle Palpatine with the Force?

Originally posted by Eminence
Concerning "the likes of Malak, Revan, the Exile and Lord Scourge":
a. Revan had already been precluded; I've made clear that I don't think the Emperor was acting with any sort of impunity in his contest with Revan, and contextually made a note of demarcating him from the "four lesser Jedi" felled on the space station. They are considered together only to observe that neither party is the equivalent of Palpatine.
Let me clarify to you that which particular Jedi formed the Jedi Strike Team that was tasked to arrest Vitiate (as shown in the video above):

Hero of Tython is a Champion of the Light (arguably even more powerful then Satele Shan); acknowledged as immensely powerful in the Force and also an extraordinarily skilled Lightsaber duelist.

Tol Braga is a powerful individual who held his own against Hero of Tython with the Force for a while after his fall. Prior to this; he dueled a Dark Counciler to a draw, who was so impressed by the former's skill and personality that he turned to Light in the aftermath. (This event alone proved to be vital for the Jedi Order's survival in the long run but this is another story.)

Warren Sedoru is a battle-hardened Jedi who had survived near death situations several times.

Leeha Nerazz gained the reputation of a Jedi who "never knew failure" and was considered worthy enough to be selected by Tol Braga for such a risky mission.

In the nutshell, this Jedi Strike Team wan't formed in haste and did not comprised of amateurs/incompetent individuals.

Nonetheless, Tol Braga wasn't foolish enough to challenge Vitiate alone and neither he expected even Hero of Tython to succeed without his help against such a foe in good shape.

When all the selected individuals got together, Tol Braga then clearly pointed out to Vitiate, prior to the confrontation, that the latter doesn't stands a chance against the combined might of such capable Jedi. However, Vitiate showed the whole Jedi Strike Team that how potent one can become with the power of the dark side. After this confrontation, the Jedi changed their strategy to handle Vitiate; thanks to betrayal from Lord Scourge during this tenure, such an opportunity came, and Vitiate was struck at his most vulnerable moment.

In short, shit happens. We just need to focus on the big picture and try to comprehend it properly.

Originally posted by Eminence
b. As I recall neither Scourge nor the Exile makes an objective assessment of the odds against Vitiate with Revan at their side, but Scourge is momentarily waylaid and subsequently driven to action by an influx of premonitions, not fear. I'm not sure what Malak has to offer here.
- Revan was uncertain about the outcome due to his past history with Vitiate. However, he was determined to try his luck one more time and, at minimum, delay Vitiate's plans. (Brave individual)

- Meetra haven't met Vitiate before. But she was very brave and confident still; this doesn't surprises me since she had handled Sith Triumvirate before.

- Scourge was also uncertain about the outcome due to his past history with Vitiate. He decided no to take risk in the end.

So we have two guys who were uncertain about the outcome of this confrontation (both had history with Vitiate); and both shared this uncertainty even when working in a team.

Originally posted by Eminence
2. My stance on Emperor Vitiate's efficacy in combat against a comparably powerful foe on neutral ground is still rooted here:

A holistic and contextual look at this Emperor indicates to me that his centuries of scholarship and reflection better serve practices that are of little utility in this arena. I agree that he is gifted; that his long life and exploration of the dark side has granted him a skillset that is among the best in a setting that favors its application; and that despite his relative (as in relative to both his own likely potential and what is exhibited by others of comparable standing) lack of martial prowess he is capable of overwhelming most characters through brute force. But I don't think what works against most characters will work against Palpatine, and I have yet to see evidence that without a stacked deck Emperor Vitiate can really match him.
Unfortunately, your look is not so holistic and contextual.

Originally posted by Eminence
Eh? Genuine: has Vitiate done something with telekinesis that you think Darth Vader, Yoda or Starkiller can't?
Neither have destroyed a structure of such a size and neither could perform this feat at their weakest point. Get the memo?

This would hold more weight if Palpatine had strangled, battered or seared them all to death. This incident is relevant to me precisely because he kills them on what should've been their turf. That his speed or ferocity or reflexes were heightened beyond theirs because of his power does not preclude the fact that speed, ferocity and reflexes are critical aspects of a lightsaber duel, and therefore by necessity talents that (per their stations) those three had to have in abundance. It stands to reason that an ace pilot is exceptionally quick, and his own duel with General Grievous aside others have testified to the effect that Kit Fisto is all of the above. Considering both physiological boons (as Plagueis so often does) and sensitivity to the Force, there has to be a convergent threshold. Theirs has to be high; Palpatine's is almost excessive.


With respect to Vitiate I'd give Revan more credit than you do. They're certainly not equals, but even all said and done I doubt flooring the Emperor twice doesn't "register." Given the circumstances of their duel I'm hesitant to give the Exile much credit for Nihilus' death, and that she and Scourge together were no match for Lady Nyriss gives me no reason to reconsider. That said, it's important to keep in mind that he didn't actually beat them.


Because he had conflicting premonitions showing him one outcome and then another. He was standing alongside the Jedi when struck by these visions, if you recall.


I agree. The difference is that Sidious has demonstrated appropriately impressive martial prowess; Vitiate has not. And it isn't that he hasn't demonstrated any martial prowess, it's that the height of what he seems to be capable of in a fight does not scale congruently with the extent or purported depth of his scholarship at all.


To my recollection no novel in this period that explores the subject (Plagueis, Labyrinth of Evil, and Revenge of the Sith being the ones I'm familiar with) supports the idea that the shift has made the Sith individually stronger, or the Jedi weaker. It is known that to Jedi the "currents" are murkier and their "use" of the Force is diminished, but in context the imbalance operates on a more macrocosmic scale (will of the dark side, the Force striking back, etc.) than we deal with here.

The life energy drawn from Byss's population was used to fuel "vile experiments within the fell Imperial Citadel" (The Essential Atlas, pg. 49). The Emperor incited a Force storm in orbit of Da Soocha V, located in Hutt Space and countless lightyears away from both Byss and its citadel.

Originally posted by Eminence
This would hold more weight if Palpatine had strangled, battered or seared them all to death. This incident is relevant to me precisely because he kills them on what should've been their turf. That his speed or ferocity or reflexes were heightened beyond theirs because of his power does not preclude the fact that speed, ferocity and reflexes are critical aspects of a lightsaber duel, and therefore by necessity talents that (per their stations) those three had to have in abundance. It stands to reason that an ace pilot is exceptionally quick, and his own duel with General Grievous aside others have testified to the effect that Kit Fisto is all of the above. Considering both physiological boons (as Plagueis so often does) and sensitivity to the Force, there has to be a convergent threshold. Theirs has to be high; Palpatine's is almost excessive.
Do you know that Ventress also defeated Kit Fisto in a duel? Kit Fisto had mastered Form 1 (Shii-Cho) but this form works best against unorthodox styles and/or battlefield based situations. It doesn't works ideally against Lightsaber combat forms better suited for martial confrontations.

Tinn's piloting skills obviously didn't prove to be useful against a formidable duelist either.

Ferocity isn't a critical aspect of a Lightsaber duel. It is important for those duelists who adopt aggressive posture such as practitioners of Shien, Ataru and Juyo.

Precognition and reaction-rate (speed) are very important aspects of a Lightsaber duel, as per my understanding. Precognition helps in anticipating the offensive moves of the opponent in advance and reaction-rate should be fast enough to complement the precognitive abilities for epic results.

Originally posted by Eminence
With respect to Vitiate I'd give Revan more credit than you do. They're certainly not equals, but even all said and done I doubt flooring the Emperor twice doesn't "register." Given the circumstances of their duel I'm hesitant to give the Exile much credit for Nihilus' death, and that she and Scourge together were no match for Lady Nyriss gives me no reason to reconsider. That said, it's important to keep in mind that he didn't actually beat them.
Good point. But Scourge and Meetra were also powerful individuals; not as powerful as Revan though.

Originally posted by Eminence
Because he had conflicting premonitions showing him one outcome and then another. He was standing alongside the Jedi when struck by these visions, if you recall.
Yes.

Originally posted by Eminence
I agree. The difference is that Sidious has demonstrated appropriately impressive martial prowess; Vitiate has not. And it isn't that he hasn't demonstrated any martial prowess, it's that the height of what he seems to be capable of in a fight does not scale congruently with the extent or purported depth of his scholarship at all.
Vitiate didn't gave as much importance to Lightsaber dueling arts as he did to the command of the Force; he likely figured out that the advantage afforded by martial aspects of combat could be nullified with great understanding of the Force. And he proved this with his actions.

Heck, Sidious for all his martial abilites, lost to Mace, Yoda and even Luke in martial confrontations.

I think that Sidious's dueling prowess is highly overrated; much like that of Anakin's. It is mistakenly assumed that these two will demolish anyone with a Lightsaber. Both Sidious and Anakin are remarkable duelists but they aren't the best.

Originally posted by Eminence
To my recollection no novel in this period that explores the subject (Plagueis, Labyrinth of Evil, and Revenge of the Sith being the ones I'm familiar with) supports the idea that the shift has made the Sith individually stronger, or the Jedi weaker. It is known that to Jedi the "currents" are murkier and their "use" of the Force is diminished, but in context the imbalance operates on a more macrocosmic scale (will of the dark side, the Force striking back, etc.) than we deal with here.
Actually, the rituals performed by Plagueis and Sidious ensured that farsight abilities of the Jedi would be nullified. And this happened.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't know Em, Windu flat-out saying that the Jedi's ability to use the Force has diminished doesn't seem that ambiguous.

As alluded to by Eminence, every available EU source that I'm familiar with (Labyrinth of Evil, Shatterpoint, Revenge of the Sith) has interpreted a single effect: clouding the Jedi's clairvoyance and large-scale precognition. He does not dispute this, but questions where it enhanced the Sith individually and with respect to combat prowess. Likewise, I don't see any proof of the Jedi's fighting capabilities being undermined.

Possibly the most awesome passage in the literature.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
As alluded to by Eminence, every available EU source that I'm familiar with (Labyrinth of Evil, Shatterpoint, Revenge of the Sith) has interpreted a single effect: clouding the Jedi's clairvoyance and large-scale precognition. He does not dispute this, but questions where it enhanced the Sith individually and with respect to combat prowess. Likewise, I don't see any proof of the Jedi's fighting capabilities being undermined.

The whole Force tangibly shifts towards the dark side. Jedi do not just draw on the Force for precognition, it makes no sense that such a complete change would only affect those abilities.

Luceno ftw.

Originally posted by Eminence
This would hold more weight if Palpatine had strangled, battered or seared them all to death. This incident is relevant to me precisely because he kills them on what should've been their turf. That his speed or ferocity or reflexes were heightened beyond theirs because of his power does not preclude the fact that speed, ferocity and reflexes are critical aspects of a lightsaber duel, and therefore by necessity talents that (per their stations) those three had to have in abundance. It stands to reason that an ace pilot is exceptionally quick, and his own duel with General Grievous aside others have testified to the effect that Kit Fisto is all of the above. Considering both physiological boons (as Plagueis so often does) and sensitivity to the Force, there has to be a convergent threshold. Theirs has to be high; Palpatine's is almost excessive.


Eminence. I understand your reasoning, but I can't agree with it, because it is - ultimately - flawed. Why?

I. The status of the trio
I'm willing to accept the idea, that the three Jedi accompanying Mace were - for whatever reason - "celebrated swordsman". But I'm not going to accept the idea - which seems to be implied by your reasoning - that the trio consisted of experienced lightsaber duelists. Most of the opponents they faced throughout their careers as "warriors" were blaster wielding humans or droids. There is, to my knowledge, one recorded lightsaber duel for Kolar - against Quinlan Vos, who was posing at a double-agent not willing to injure/kill his opponent. Tiin has no actual lightsaber confrontation on his field record, just one training match against Kenobi, that he lost. Fisto went up against Asajj Ventress, which ended with his defeat and an injury. He did well against Grievous, but also not solely because of his lightsaber abilities. He did utilize the Force to overcome the non-force-sensitive.

So that trio, when it comes to lightsaber duels under combat conditions is almost inexperienced, with their skill level - apparently - below that of Master Kenobi, who, in turn, seems to be firmly below the likes of Yoda, Sidious, Mace and Dooku.

II. Jumping to conclusions
While I agree that "speed, ferocity and reflexes" are pretty nice to have as a lightsaber combatant, I don't see any reason to suggest that the trio had those "in abundance" based on their station as "celebrated swordsman". Nor do I see a reason why the "convergent threshold" you've mentioned "has to be high" with them. Or what "station" were you referring to? And even that claim to fame is mostly based upon Mace Windu's musings regarding their lightsaber abilities. The same Mace Windu, that - in the same source - calls Obi-Wan "the master of lightsaber combat" and mentions that the bladework of his Padawan Depa Billaba does surpass his own. Pretty generous judgements regarding the actual abilities of his fellow Jedi.

But even assuming, that there was some reason behind Mace's judgement, we're right back at the fact, that the actual combat showings of the trio lead to the suggestion, that they are below Obi-Wan Kenobi in skill. That's certainly nothing to scoff at, but it's still nowhere close to the likes of Mace himself.

III. Ignoring the facts
Rather than "facts" one could say, that you're ignoring one fact: that Sidious force aided speed was his key to victory. I don't want to start of the circumstances of that little fight, the bad choreography or anything else linked to it, but one has to accept that neither Tiin nor Kolar shows any reaction before getting cut down by Sidious. So before even starting to think about their lightsaber abilities or reflexes, you should accept the fact that all of that was completely negated by the sheer speed and ferocity of Sidious initial assault.

An assault fueled by the dark side of the force, that gives people an advantage in combat, which is why Mace fighting style is so very efficient. We know, that the initial attack of a Sith Lord fueled by his rage can elevate his performance beyond the boundries of his "normal" skills. After all, Sidious himself almost fell victim to a similar attack, when Maul launched at him in a similar ferrocious assault. But unlike Sidious in his confrontation with the Jedi, Maul was at the edge of his physical abilities already, having spent several weeks on a planet, without food, unable to sleep and constantly hunted by droids programmed to kill him (which resulted in an injury). But even under that adverse conditions, Maul was capable of launching an attack on his Master that Sidious just "barely" deflected.

Could it be that Sidious himself made use of a similar, albeit more controlled, manouver in order to get rid of the two weakest links in the team Mace brought? Would the same work against a rather powerful force user, given the idea, that a better connection to the force ensures a more accurate prediction of the moves an opponent might conduct in a lightsaber fight?



Where does he floor the Emperor twice?
He does it once, in a situation were Vitiate does completely focus on attempting to mindrape Revan, leaving himself open to an attack. That might seem odd or be seen as weakness on Vitiate's side. But then one has to keep the fact in mind, that not only has he - apparently with ease - turned Revan into a puppet before. That ability to dominate other beings is one that he has used from the early days of his career and that has, seemingly, never failed him before that confrontation with Revan.
The second time Revan "hits" him, with a bolt of dark side energy reflected back, Vitiate is pushed backwards but not "floored" and, in turn, unleashes the attack that totally overpowers Revans defenses. Do you think that Revan would have stood a chance had Vitiate done all he could to kill his adversary with the first attack? I don't. And seeing that Vitiate in guise of his voice (so at a time, where his essence - and hence power - was devided to his original body, his voice and "hundreds" of his "children) able to utterly destroy an entire strike team of Jedi (Masters), I don't think that the Exile and Scourge would have made much of a difference there.



How can you not give the Exile much credit for the death of Nihilus? She had support when fighting him, true. But somebody did weaken and kill him, right? And there is still that little fact, that Meetra did fight her way through the Sith Academy on Malachor V to confront Sion / Traya on her own. And Nyriss is one of the 12 most powerful Dark Side adepts within an Empire filled with Sith and dark acolytes. I think that does require some ability regarding the use of the Force. A field of study that, given the description of both Nyriss herself and her study room, she has dedicated some nice amount of time (and resources) to. After all, reducing two soldiers to "charred husks" in split seconds using Force lightning isn't a too shabby display of power, is it?



What I recall is, that he was never certain, whether the trio - even in a combined effort - would be capable of taking out Vitiate. Even before the trio sets out for the final confrontation Revan and Scourge are discussing the possibility, that they will die at the hands of the Sith Emperor. So that uncertainty was present before the visions came. Without reason? I don't think so.

After all, Vitiate is the guy that once executed eleven members of his Dark Council with a single "sudden flash" on the steps of his citadel. It was the same Vitiate that, just before Scourge and the two Jedi confronted him, personally executed nine members of the Dark Council on his own - again, apparently, with one single demonstration of his abilities.

"Approbiate impressive martial prowess"? How so, Eminence? Because he managed to decimating three Jedi Masters of relatively unknown skill in seconds? Vitiate apparently doesn't even need to ignite a lightsaber to do the same. Your point?

And it strikes me as odd to proclaim, that Vitiate hasn't demonstrated any kind of "impressive" martial prowess. Does the term "martial" now exclusively refer to the use of a lightsaber? Can't we file "anything a character can do in a confration" under that headline? Shouldn't we take everything Vitiate can do in a direct confrontation into consideration, rather than sticking to lightsaber abilities, that Vitiate simple doesn't care about, because - for more than 1,300 years - he still hasn't met a single being capable of withstanding his force powers ?

Surely, Vitiate does rely on his force abilities, rather than utilizing a lightsaber. Perhabs he has good reason to do so, given the demonstrations of his force powers. Put the Sith Emperor in Palpatines situation in RotS. Would Vitiate have ignited a lightsaber to charge the four Jedi? Possible not. Would they have stood a chance if Vitiate had decided to unleash his force powers agains them? I seriously doubt it. Now try it the other way around. Put Sidious up against Revan, the Exile and Lord Scourge. Do you honestly think there is a even a 50/50 chance for him winning?

And even if Vitiate lacks constant lightsaber training, who is to say, that he can't wield the weapon with the same force aided, deadly efficiency, that Sidious utilized in his lightsaber fights? I don't see much evidence contradicting that idea.




How, pray tell, could those novels - save for "Darth Plagueis" - describe the effects of the shift, that has just been introduced by the aforementioned novel? Before that, the EU was operating under the premise of a certain amount of unbalancing of the Force, that has occured 200 years in the past, meaning that most of the Jedi active in the PT era would never have experienced any other condition during their lifetime.

The shift towards the Dark Side must have had tremendous effect, given how Plagueis discribes it twice in a fashion, that leaves no doubt about the idea, that at least every force user, if not every living being, must have noted the change happening. And what does happen?

For the Jedi, Mace Windu makes it pretty clear in AotC: "our ability to use the Force has diminished." Is there any particular field mentioned or even a single ability? No. It's a general statement for the Jedi's weakening control in regards to using the force. And for the Sith? Well. When we assume, that the Force did shift towards the Dark Side, than Plagueis delivers the basic idea himself:

"But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras?" - Darth Plagueis, iBook, Chapter 5, p.65

And after the shift occured, the first thing Plagueis does is demonstrating his - apparently new - ability to bring beings back from the other side of the wall of death unaided.

So we have Mace claiming that the Jedi did become weaker, with Plagueis hinting at the idea, that the Sith would have become stronger.

The trio weren't the only ones in that fight who were uncertain of the outcome.



Under unknown circumstances. Given Vitiate's predilection for rituals, it could have very well been the result of one such.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The trio weren't the only ones in that fight who were uncertain of the outcome.


Which you base on one sentence of Vitiate, which he uttered seconds after proclaiming how they will all die? Or, rather than that, from the fact, that he wasn't certain about the power-level of the Exile?



Why would he prepare a more or less complex ritual, just in order to execute some underlings, when he has an army at his disposal, more than eager to do the job? And why should we assume he even needs a ritual for it, if he is "infinitely more powerful" than Nyriss, one of the Dark Council members?

Originally posted by Nai
Which you base on one sentence of Vitiate, which he uttered seconds after proclaiming how they will all die?

It could very easily have been false bravado.

Originally posted by Nai
Or, rather than that, from the fact, that he wasn't certain about the power-level of the Exile?

Why would he need to be worried about Surik? She was fodder for Nyriss who, in turn, was "infinitely" less powerful than Vitiate as you explain.

Originally posted by Nai
Why would he prepare a more or less complex ritual, just in order to execute some underlings, when he has an army at his disposal, more than eager to do the job?

Personal gratification?

Originally posted by Nai
And why should we assume he even needs a ritual for it, if he is "infinitely more powerful" than Nyriss, one of the Dark Council members?

Because the statement is hyperbolic? Because we never see him wave his hand and his opponent drop dead?

I'd like to start by saying Vitiate obliterates Sidious' corrupted body with a maelstrom of dark techniques not practiced by the latter.

Then I'd like to say Sidious was more dangerous, because he was far more clever and creative in overthrowing the Republic and destroying the Jedi. When he started relying more on the Dark Side than his natural talent as a mastermind, he was brought down...drunk on power.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It could very easily have been false bravado.


Or his true opinion.



And Vitiate was irritated, because she stopped him from killing Revan, when he, apparently, didn't even care about her presence in his throne room.



He could have told people to have done it himself, while leaving the dirty job for his Royal Guard. Who would ever learn the truth, outside the Citadel?



Of course it is hyperbolic. It still does deliver a very clear impression, doesn't it. And I've yet to see somebody Vitiate attacked with his full power and in order to kill.

Originally posted by Nai
Or his true opinion.

Which is contradicted by the "hesitation" and "uncertainty" that is attributed to him a moment later.

Originally posted by Nai
And Vitiate was irritated, because she stopped him from killing Revan, when he, apparently, didn't even care about her presence in his throne room.

How does his irritation lend itself to hesitation and uncertainty?

Originally posted by Nai
He could have told people to have done it himself, while leaving the dirty job for his Royal Guard. Who would ever learn the truth, outside the Citadel?

I meant that it could have been "personally gratifying" for him to kill them personally rather than assign the task to the Guard.

Originally posted by Nai
Of course it is hyperbolic. It still does deliver a very clear impression, doesn't it. And I've yet to see somebody Vitiate attacked with his full power and in order to kill.

The text notes that Vitiate was enraged when he attacked Revan after being floored by him the second time; you observe he intended to kill Revan then and there. We see Vitiate inform the Jedi Knight in The Old Republic that he intends to kill him before their battle begins. A potentially-exhausted Knight, depending on the circumstance, in the midst of a dark side nexus which in addition to bolstering the powers of dark siders, reduce the abilities of light siders (The Jedi Academy Training Manual).

The attack is completely incongruent with what we know of Vitiate. If it happened (The Old Republic Encyclopedia was written entirely in-universe per its introduction), it was very probably the result of a ritual.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which is contradicted by the "hesitation" and "uncertainty" that is attributed to him a moment later.


Attributed to him by another character, that might very well be wrong.



First: See above. Then: He was completely focused on Revan, when, from his point of view, suddenly other opponents entered the arena, that he didn't pay any attention to before. Of course he is hesitating, because its a new situation and of course he is uncertain, because one of that new opponents is not just an unknown to him but, if I may remind you, a walking wound in the Force. Confronted with the same situation, other people might act out of panic. Vitiate simple waits. Because he felt treatened? Then why not deliver another force attack at the Exile (and Scourge) instead of doing, well, nothing?



Vitiate doesn't seem to care enough about his Dark Council (or anybody else) to gain anything from executing them on his own. And even if he wanted to do that, he could have just killed them one by one if he lacked the power to kill them all at once.



That doesn't mean he wanted to kill him fast and painless, does it? If I remember correctly, Sidious also wants to kill Luke Skywalker in "Return of the Jedi", yet keeps electrocuting him without reducing him to ashes, before Vader suplexes his master into the reactor core of the second Death Star.



You do realize, that Vitiate is never wielding all his power in The Old Republic, right? The Jedi Knight confronts the Voice of the Emperor, which is a part of Vitiate's essence (and power) contained within another being. But at that point in time, Vitiate has kind of split his essence (and power) into rather many parts. One part resides in his original body, one big part in his Voice and smaller parts in his "children", which, according to The Old Republic Encyclopedia (p.163) numbered in the "hundreds".



How is that attack completely incongruent with what we know of Vitiate? He has been seen to take out entire groups of opponents on his own, when not wielding all his power during ToR, as explained above.
And it's nice to question the content of a source (to the point of questioning whether or not something proclaimed within has happened), just because its written from an in-universe perspective, which - surprise - is true for every single SW source.
That aside, your personal wish of the attack being the result of a ritual does not increase the probability for that being the case.

I'm tempted to address Nai's failed attempts to undermine Sidious's saber feats, and his suggestion that Vitiate can repilicate them, but I have a feeling he has me on ignore from our last debate. It would probably be a waste of time anyway considering he has a history of being persisted even when he is wrong. Still tempted though.

If youdo it I will quote you so he can see it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm tempted to address Nai's failed attempts to undermine Sidious's saber feats, and his suggestion that Vitiate can repilicate them, but I have a feeling he has me on ignore from our last debate. It would probably be a waste of time anyway considering he has a history of being persisted even when he is wrong. Still tempted though.

Amusing, coming from a Sidious fanboy who has never been right.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Amusing, coming from a Sidious fanboy who has never been right.


Still mad that you can't back up your retarded claim that "Vitiate stomps Palpatine"?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm tempted to address Nai's failed attempts to undermine Sidious's saber feats, and his suggestion that Vitiate can repilicate them, but I have a feeling he has me on ignore from our last debate. It would probably be a waste of time anyway considering he has a history of being persisted even when he is wrong. Still tempted though.

Good god, Gracie.
Instead of wasting precious bandwith with your irrelevant declaration of thoughts, you should have wasted it with your likewise irrelevant take on the issue. No, no, no. Please wait and forgive me.

Of course, your opinion on the issue is most wanted, provided that nobody expects less from you, than an accurate, detailed and objective analysis of Sidious saberskill...given that this creative nickname you've equiped yourself with, doesn't even allow the faintest allusion to the idea, that you, in fact, could be a little bit biased here.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Still mad that you can't back up your retarded claim that "Vitiate stomps Palpatine"?

Still mad that you can't come up with any kind of logical argument, or that you can't properly read? (Hint for the retard: I never said Vitiate stomps Palpatine).

Originally posted by Nai
Good god, Gracie.
Instead of wasting precious bandwith with your irrelevant declaration of thoughts, you should have wasted it with your likewise irrelevant take on the issue. No, no, no. Please wait and forgive me.


Well I didn't want to stoop to your level by constantly replying to a poster who has me on ignore. I don't find any character that important regardless of my like or dislike for them. Beside's I've addressed the same arguments that you're rehashing with other poster, so my argument here would've been meant for you, so why waste time if you had me on ignore?

You don't though, so I guess I will address them.


Originally posted by Nai
Of course, your opinion on the issue is most wanted, provided that nobody expects less from you, than an accurate, detailed and objective analysis of Sidious saberskill...given that this creative nickname you've equiped yourself with, doesn't even allow the faintest allusion to the idea, that you, in fact, could be a little bit biased here.


You worry about all the wrong things. My user name being after a certain character or my bias for that character is not your business. You being bothered by it just goes to show that you really do have some form of a negative obsession with the character.

lol@negative obsession

Originally posted by jadams3928
Still mad that you can't come up with any kind of logical argument, or that you can't properly read? (Hint for the retard: I never said Vitiate stomps Palpatine).


Are you lying now, or do you just have a bad memory? I can quote you if you want.

Lol now go back to getting your ass kicked by a troll.

You would know better than anyone about getting their ass kicked. Thanks for the lecture, chuckles.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well I didn't want to stoop to your level by constantly replying to a poster who has me on ignore.

I'm not aware of somebody having me on ignore right now, so I wonder what you may be hinting at.



Sure thing, pal. Everyone capable of reading the seven letters of your username will certainly believe you.



Yes, indeed. Why waste your time...
...with another irrelevant posting explaining your thoughts, rather than addressing my argument.



I'm not "worried" at all, nor am I "bothered" by your username. I was merely pointing out - to the general public - that there could be a correlation between your choice of username and the course of your (later) argument. But maybe you're driven by self-loathing and express that by picking the name of a character you really, really don't like. Who knows, who cares?

Originally posted by Nai
I'm not "worried" at all, nor am I "bothered" by your username. I was merely pointing out - to the general public - that there could be a correlation between your choice of username and the course of your (later) argument. But maybe you're driven by self-loathing and express that by picking the name of a character you really, really don't like. Who knows, who cares?


I'm pretty sure that "the general public" can see what you can. Yes, my username is SIDIOUS 66. Why do you keep harping on the obvious if you have no issue with it?

If you are willing to debate then I will be back on later today and I will address your arguments. But in the mean: stop worrying about things that are not your business.

Basically all I wanted to know is if you had me on ignore, and if you were willing to debate a topic with me. Thanks for letting me know.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Are you still seriously masquerading under the guise of objectivity?




I never have. Read my usertitle. Selfownage much?



Oh. You got me. I was actually waiting for him to point that out, which was, apparently, too much to expect.

Actually its obscure Eqyptian goddesses. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-smuggo.gif

Originally posted by Nai
Oh. You got me. I was actually waiting for him to point that out, which was, apparently, too much to expect.

lol

Nice try, but no you wasn't, unless you missed the implication when I said "you worry about the wrong things." So maybe it was me who was expecting too much from you.

Now, do you want to debate, or do you want to continue making a fool of yourself

With all that said, if you feel that my bias affects my ability to reason (as it does with Jadams3928 and LeGenD), or if I seemingly have lost touch with reality (which seems to me the case with LeGenD and Jadams3928), then by all means, ignore me. Otherwise, my username, and who I'm arguing for, shouldn't be a problem for you, right?



Originally posted by Nai
I'm not going to accept the idea - which seems to be implied by your reasoning - that the trio consisted of experienced lightsaber duelists.


Just because most of the jedi of that order have never faced a sith lord in a lightsaber duel does not make them inexperienced lightsaber duelists. Jedi still go through training, and have sparring sessions among eachother to keep their skills honed. Yoda did say that they were training to fight the last war with the sith (ROTS novel). So while you can argue that they weren't experienced with the sith, they were, however, prepared for them. After all, before professional fighters are thrown into a ring, they train and prepare themselves first.


Originally posted by Nai
There is, to my knowledge, one recorded lightsaber duel for Kolar - against Quinlan Vos, who was posing at a double-agent not willing to injure/kill his opponent.


Kolar handed Vos his ass in a practical stomp.


Originally posted by Nai
Tiin has no actual lightsaber confrontation on his field record, just one training match against Kenobi, that he lost. Fisto went up against Asajj Ventress, which ended with his defeat and an injury.


He was said to have one of the strongest force abilities of his time (The Official Star Wars Fact File #114), and he does have pretty good reaction speed and precog abilities.


Originally posted by Nai
He did well against Grievous, but also not solely because of his lightsaber abilities. He did utilize the Force to overcome the non-force-sensitive.


No, he didn't. The casual force push served to humiliate Grievous. Fisto disarmed him of one of his sabers and proceeded to force Grievous on the defensive throughout the majority of the duel.



Originally posted by Nai
While I agree that "speed, ferocity and reflexes" are pretty nice to have as a lightsaber combatant, I don't see any reason to suggest that the trio had those "in abundance" based on their station as "celebrated swordsman". Nor do I see a reason why the "convergent threshold" you've mentioned "has to be high" with them.


I assume, and I'm pretty sure you do to, that when referenced in the Complete Visual Dictionary as "celebrated swordsmasters", they were referenced as such by jedi standards, which would include force inhance speed, reflexes and precision - all of which are just as important in a lightsaber duel as technical skill.



Originally posted by Nai
But even assuming, that there was some reason behind Mace's judgement, we're right back at the fact, that the actual combat showings of the trio lead to the suggestion, that they are below Obi-Wan Kenobi in skill. That's certainly nothing to scoff at, but it's still nowhere close to the likes of Mace himself.


What showings suggest that they are below Kenobi? If anything, there are showings that actually suggest that Fisto may be Kenobi's superior in sabers, considering that he did have to hold back when sparring with Kenobi, and the fact that he completely tooled Grievous in combat whereas Kenobi consistently struggles against the cyborg.


Originally posted by Nai
Rather than "facts" one could say, that you're ignoring one fact: that Sidious force aided speed was his key to victory.


And Yoda's force aided inhancements are the key to him being able to engage in a lightsaber duel at all. Otherwise, he can barely even walk. This does not make him any less of a lightsaber duelist. As with Sidious, Yoda can apply his force inhancements skillfully in a lightsaber duel. This is both Yoda's and Sidious's biggest advantage against most in sabers. In fact, Yoda's mastery in his prefered style owes more to his force aided abilities than anything else.

You seem to consider both Yoda and Mace to be very skilled, while you say Palpatine is not so skilled, but instead relies on his force inhancements. Then why didn't either of them seem to hold a huge advantage against Sidious despite the fact that they had seemingly stalemated Palpatine in speed. The only reason Yoda had the upperhand in his saber duel against Sidious, was because Sidious was at a disadvantageous position, being unable to move around on the podium they were fighting on, and yet Sidious was still holding his own against him.

So while I will agree that Yoda is more skilled than Palpatine, I don't see anything to suggest he is miles ahead of him.



Originally posted by Nai
"Approbiate impressive martial prowess"? How so, Eminence? Because he managed to decimating three Jedi Masters of relatively unknown skill in seconds? Vitiate apparently doesn't even need to ignite a lightsaber to do the same. Your point?

And it strikes me as odd to proclaim, that Vitiate hasn't demonstrated any kind of "impressive" martial prowess. Does the term "martial" now exclusively refer to the use of a lightsaber? Can't we file "anything a character can do in a confration" under that headline? Shouldn't we take everything Vitiate can do in a direct confrontation into consideration, rather than sticking to lightsaber abilities, that Vitiate simple doesn't care about, because - for more than 1,300 years - he still hasn't met a single being capable of withstanding his force powers ?

Surely, Vitiate does rely on his force abilities, rather than utilizing a lightsaber. Perhabs he has good reason to do so, given the demonstrations of his force powers. Put the Sith Emperor in Palpatines situation in RotS. Would Vitiate have ignited a lightsaber to charge the four Jedi? Possible not. Would they have stood a chance if Vitiate had decided to unleash his force powers agains them? I seriously doubt it. Now try it the other way around. Put Sidious up against Revan, the Exile and Lord Scourge. Do you honestly think there is a even a 50/50 chance for him winning?

And even if Vitiate lacks constant lightsaber training, who is to say, that he can't wield the weapon with the same force aided, deadly efficiency, that Sidious utilized in his lightsaber fights? I don't see much evidence contradicting that idea.



Vitiate never needing a lightsaber against far weaker opponents than himself, helps him how here? Yoda doesn't need a lightsaber for the majority of force users of his era, seeing how he can completely paralyze and disarm Ventress - one of the top duelists of the time - with the force alone, but when he was out to kill Sidious, what did he resort to? Usually when two force users are near equals in the force, they usually have to resort to a saber duel.

Your suggestion that Vitiate can replicate Sidious' lightsaber feats by virtue of being powerful, lacks any basis what so ever. If that's the case, why didn't Starkiller blitz Shaak Ti considering he was far more powerful than her. Why didn't Dooku Blitz Kenobi in AOTC, or any jedi for that matter, despite being far more powerful than most of them? For all Bane's power and speed, when has he blitzed any opponent? In fact, when has any dark sider blitzed another force user before they were able to react, as Palpatine has? It's silly to apply Palpatine's speed feats to Vitiate, when Vitiate has no feats in that area. Vitiate has never honed his physical abilities the way Palpatine has. Plaguies had Palpatine face many trials to hone his force inhanced physical abilities. Palpatine was trained to focus the force for speed, and how to apply it in saber combat; Vitiate was not as far as I know. So if you want to go down the road of speculation, then I can too.

Okay, so let me get this straight.

You're saying that Vitiate, who has virutally no lightsaber skills, only won fights dominating the minds of his enemies, yes he trapped hundreds of dark aparitions on Dromund Kaas and dominated the minds of Jedi Masters and Sith Lords and demonstrated the ability to overpower Revan, Surik, or Malak in single combat, but was just about to be beaten by the combination of Meetra Surik and Revan before Lord Scourge stepped in, and that is the peak of his skill which ultimately demonstrated disentigration of a droid by way of TK...something out performed by Sidious' master Plagueis who ATOMIZED six assailants with TK...and outdone in TK by Yoda who handled near Star Destroyer sized Droid Starships or Galen Marek who brought down a Star Destroyer, or Mace Windu who fought hundreds of times faster than a normal Jedi and used Vapaad, which corrupted other Jedi's to the Dark Side, can defeat Sidious, described as a Black Hole in the Force, who Force drained the Jedi order or used Mass Sever Force, or a combination of both, orchestrated Anakin Skywalker's Virgin Birth along-side his master using a ritual that almost succeeded in covering the galaxy in the Dark Side, slayed hundreds of enemies alongside his master, Sidious who pulverizes three Jedi Masters; outspars Darth Maul, who's killing assassin droids in seconds with precision, with effortless control in a duel; Forces Yoda and Galen Marek to relent and admit defeat, kills an entire legion of Clone Troopers with Force Lightning, slayed an army with his lightsaber, single handidly controlled the minds of billions of Storm Troopers and Imperial Officers in unpresented displays of Battle Meditation at the Death Star II, turns enemies into ash with Force lightning, generated violent Force storms that ripped the surfaces off of planets, subjugated billions on Coruscant to keep a hidden Star Destroyer secret, subjugated billions on Byss and fed off of their essences for six years, studied Dark secrets spanning billions of worlds for those same six years, atomized a lightsaber, was unharmed by a thousand tons of steel collapsing on him and unscathed by Galen Marek's kamakaze attack, a Sith who increased the Force sensitivity in his subject like Nihilus would sever Force, except the reverse in INCREASING the sensitivity of his subjects, and finally, a Sith Emperor who's spirit is currently being wrestled with, held down, and contained by the hundreds of Spirits of former Jedi who became one with the Force...?

You're crazy.

If this is ROTJ Sidious Vs ToR MMO Vitiate, even before being weakened by the ritual, this is what he'll be saying at the end of their duel;

RVl_sjUrNQE

Vitiate is immensely powerful, but the product of a millennium of Bane's ingenius and messianically "Sith'ari" revised Rule of Two is sorely stronger...even Plagueis could be considered more powerful as his apprentice was forced to electrocute him in an intoxicated state before Sidious succeeded in beocming a "black hole in the Force".

Wow.... That may just be the longest run on sentence I have ever seen.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


Kolar handed Vos his ass in a practical stomp.

And Vos's feats are what? Getting beat on by Cad Bane??





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He was said to have one of the strongest force abilities of his time (The Official Star Wars Fact File #114), and he does have pretty good reaction speed and precog abilities.

Which means what??





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, he didn't. The casual force push served to humiliate Grievous.

Don't make up your own reaosns for why he resorted to a force push. Fact is he only put Grievous on his ass with use of the Force.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Fisto disarmed him of one of his sabers

He took that arm by surprise while Grievous was gloating at him.

And Notice how he wasn't able to remove another arm after that??

Before he took that arm he kept hiding from Grievous.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
and proceeded to force Grievous on the defensive throughout the majority of the duel.

That was impressive, I'll give you that.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I assume, and I'm pretty sure you do to, that when referenced in the Complete Visual Dictionary as "celebrated swordsmasters", they were referenced as such by jedi standards, which would include force inhance speed, reflexes and precision - all of which are just as important in a lightsaber duel as technical skill.

This is all relative to thousands of Jedi. So doesn't mean much when comparing to the top PT Saber duelists.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What showings suggest that they are below Kenobi? If anything, there are showings that actually suggest that Fisto may be Kenobi's superior in sabers, considering that he did have to hold back when sparring with Kenobi, and the fact that he completely tooled Grievous in combat whereas Kenobi consistently struggles against the cyborg.



Oh not this crap again! ROTS Kenobi stomped Grievous in seconds. All the supposed "struggling" your claiming were context specific. Fisto never faced Grievous in an enclosed space.

And Grievous is the most unreliable medium to compare different Jedi with.

Ashoka was almost stalemating Grievous recently! So what does that mean Kenobi would struggle to beat Ashoka?!

Beating Grievous with the aid of the Force is hardly the Uber feat now that it once was.

I'll have to consult the novel again to validate the other claims.

As to the rest, there seems to be some sort of concord in this thread to deliberately misread every third point I try to make. I suppose it's possible that despite the deliberate qualifiers preceding some of my more arguments (and the clarification about the first big one questioned) I'm simply not being clear enough. I'll go over that stuff again, briefly, in the next few days.

I should throw a "maybe" onto the end of that. The effect of the imbalance is worth determining conclusively, the rest makes me want to murder some of you.

I already explored it on the previous page.

Indeed, but before it has been conclusively determined I must consult and confirm or interpret the source for this:

Sidious is far too frail as of ROTJ to wield a lightsaber any better than Vitiate. So this comes down to Force Abilities, where I believe Vitiate would get the edge.

However, Sidious as of Dark Empire could probably take Vitiate down a few notches.

I can't decide.

Any form of Sidious will defeat Vitshit.

The original will always be superior to the rehash every time.

Palpatine > Vitiate.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The original will always be superior to the rehash every time.

Palpatine > Vitiate.


Palpatine often win V.S vitiate through light saber meaning... And here... He don't have a light saber it change everythings !!!! RotJ sidious is less polyvalent than RotS one....

Both Are at the quasi same level of insame power exept thna Vitiate is clearkly the more powerfull but his power are unaturals compared to sidious, and sidous have also a natural use of his power...

Originally posted by AncientPower
The original will always be superior to the rehash every time.

Palpatine > Vitiate.

Character quality wise no one can deny this fact.

However, power wise I agree with this(though I'm not sure if Newguy is being sincere):


Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sidious is far too frail as of ROTJ to wield a lightsaber any better than Vitiate. So this comes down to Force Abilities, where I believe Vitiate would get the edge.

I doubt that as I don't think Vitiate can pull out anything that will either work or he can do better than Sidious.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Any form of Sidious will defeat Vitshit.

Dying Sidious from DE.

Originally posted by Sinious
Character quality wise no one can deny this fact.

However, power wise I agree with this(though I'm not sure if Newguy is being sincere):

It's not insincerity, it's simply two years outdated.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's not insincerity, it's simply two years outdated.

And for a second I thought we could be friends.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I doubt that as I don't think Vitiate can pull out anything that will either work or he can do better than Sidious.

And I doubt that I don't think than Plaptine have some shit really effectiv against Vitiate if that's the case...

Vitiate have this problem of energy, he need ernegy to destroy the entire universe and he don't want to waste it in just a combat... He is gathering a lot and a lot of energy/power.

But he don't use it, If he were able to use this power and then regaining immediatly (as sidious does because his power are naturals...)
Then DE sidious force storm will look so tiny !!!


He is ten time more pwoerfull than DE sidious !!!!!!!! But he can't regain his power fater a missv use of it !!! That's the difference.. In anyway... If he use all his power against sidious he just destroy the star system (lol)
And sidious Using his full power destroy the entire continent (lol)

They satelmate each other !!!! Each one have the potential to just over power the ennemy defenses !!!!

Originally posted by Sinious
And for a second I thought we could be friends.

Do you really think RotJ Sidious can't use his lightsaber?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Do you really think RotJ Sidious can't use his lightsaber?

Of course I don't. He most likely isnt as good as he was in ROTS but it shouldn't matter.

A Sith Lord ten times more powerful than the most powerful Sith Lord of all time as confirmed on every possible level from a trading card to Lucas himself.

Seems legit.

@Post below me:

No one knows.

I'm not following you. What exactly is the debate here?

Originally posted by NewGuy01


What are you talking about?

I think he means Plagueis > all sith and Sidious = Plagueis x 10

According to Chiste that is logical.

Hm.

Vitiate solidly.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sidious is far too frail as of ROTJ to wield a lightsaber any better than Vitiate. So this comes down to Force Abilities, where I believe Vitiate would get the edge.

However, Sidious as of Dark Empire could probably take Vitiate down a few notches. Unless you have a source, I think that's an assumption:

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sidious is far too frail as of ROTJ to wield a lightsaber any better than Vitiate. So this comes down to Force Abilities, where I believe Vitiate would get the edge.

However, Sidious as of Dark Empire could probably take Vitiate down a few notches.

Unless you have a source, I think that's an assumption:

quote:
Palpatine affected the simple clothing of a simple man, but drew his powers of persuasion and control from the blackest depths of the dark side of the Force. While the Force has twisted his face, it has also sustained him well beyond his years, and even in his old age the Emperor remains a figure of terrible power.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary



The both are true... But this power don't come from his phisical ability at all.. In fact he fight with a light saber but it demand insane force energy to keep him with a decent strengh agility or speed. In this case you throw your light saber laughing I am the best light saber duelist of all the galaxy? Yhea am I. ANd I'm gonna to throw My light saber because I'm better at the force, needn't this Jedi weapon (even if the light saber is a sith invention.) That's the worst insult ever to the Jedi.

I don't know where shoudl I find a source but that's pretty clear and many sidious fan know that.

If Vitiate can reach palpa without seing the throne room blow up (Yhea because Vitiate and sidious are just freakin super siens)
He will kill Sidious with a light saber XD Vitiate killing Sidious in a light saber combat XDXDXDXDXD !!!

Palpatine stomps him again and again

You do realize Yoda could barely walk right? Then...

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8vqjqnXBk1rv5zh8o1_400.gif

Originally posted by Selenial

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8vqjqnXBk1rv5zh8o1_400.gif

They look like they're trying fighting with the wind.

Yhea but that tactic.. Eeer not a very good tactic he just hate fighting so he just all is energy in those augmentations to end the combat the quickest possible...
He is like the end he need to rest and rest....

Sidious is sith, he he hurt directly a "living thing" (yhea becoz 'hiz a sith he don't care) with force power he won't make a behavior to Jedi code !
No reason for him to keep his light saber.

Sinious If you want a sadic critic of this fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2N7pI543fA&list=PL14E48361CD4C0B5A&index=10

This is not the worst detail... There is more here !


Yoda physical augmentation cost INSANE ENRGY through the force...

facepalm

Cathage that's a bit true...
DO YOU HAVE SEE RotJ SIDIOUS WITH A LIGHT SABER?

And Vitiate V.S Sidious in pure force power.. It's like superman V.S Goku.
WHo's super ? Who's Goku? I don't know but :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyl97TG8jbA&list=PLB833073B659FD65A&index=16

For what it's worth, TFU Sidious had an easy enough time holding back Marek's blade in the dark side ending.