Darth Bane vs. (Darth) Revan

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L30nidas
Bane has his orbalisks but before he starts getting old in the third book.
Revan is at the height of his power, can use dark or light, and has a purple lightsaber. (For the hell of it.)

Who would win?

Pwned
So RoT Bane? Or does he get his DoE feats AND orbalisks?


If he gets those Orbalisks and his DoE feats, he performs an utterly unholy stomp. I don't think anybody in the entire mythos could take him on in sabers at that point.

If it is RoT Bane, then he is not nearly as powerful due to his less refined connection to the Dark Side. However, in sabers I believe Bane will take it, due to his mastery of all the forms of lightsaber combat (including a teaching knowledge of a double bladed, and fighting knowledge of two sabers)

Keep in mind that with Orbalisks, Bane took on the best swordsman in the entire Jedi Order while the Jedi were empowered by battle meditation of a Master. This one made Johun Othone useful. He was also under attack by another Master, I believe (It was Raskta Lsu, Farfalla, and Othone, yes?) The 2 masters were both veterans of the Sith war, and could pwn Sith fairly easily.


As for Force, Revan may have him outclassed simply due to it being a RoT. He doesn't have the sheer unstoppability that he does in DoE.

Nephthys
ROT Bane. He still wins imo. Revan has nothing that can really put him down.

S_W_LeGenD
Is this Darth Revan or Jedi Master Revan?

Keep in mind that Darth Revan impressed Bane. He will be a good fight for POD Bane at least; possibly capable of handling this incarnation of Bane.

But Bane learned more later on, and arguably surpassed Darth Revan in power and skill.

However, Jedi Master Revan is stupendously powerful by all accounts. His performance in Star Forge and Darth Nyriss, cements his position as among the most powerful individuals in the whole mythos.

So it is necessary to pick an incarnation of Revan here.

Nephthys
Who cares? He can't win with his mediocre saber feats and lack of offensive Force powers. Bane wins 9/10 with the 1 time Revan wins being when he reflects Banes own lightning at him and Bane can't block it in time for some reason.

OP says its peak Revan though.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
Who cares? He can't win with his mediocre saber feats and lack of offensive Force powers. Bane wins 9/10 with the 1 time Revan wins being when he reflects Banes own lightning at him and Bane can't block it in time for some reason.

OP says its peak Revan though.
Bro, feats wise, Revan isn't as nicely explored as Bane has been. Drew is to blame here. However, Revan's combat performance is above that of Bane's, as much as you protest against this point.

I find the claim of 'mediocre saber feats' and lack of 'offensive Force powers' questionable; Jedi Master Revan outgunned a formidable duelist in few steps, destroyed Darth Nyriss in a single attempt and put Vitiate on his @ss twice. If this isn't display of incredible power and skill, then I don't know what else to say. And his performance in Star Forge is also incredible.

Performance in combat situations is the right medium to judge a character.

Show me a single example of Bane, outgunning a formidable opponent in the manner as Revan did. Right, you can't.

TheOneOfMortis
Bane could be the most dangerous lightsaber user of all time, when you take int account rain feat and orbalisks, so I think it would take somebody like Nihilus, Vitiate, DE Sidious or somebody like that to overpower him with the Force before he closes distance. Revan is good (like Bane he was suspected to eb Sith;ari, was one of the Ones on Mortis) but he is not Force God level and he would not be able to handle Bane's speed or orbalisks.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Bane could be the most dangerous lightsaber user of all time, when you take int account rain feat and orbalisks, so I think it would take somebody like Nihilus, Vitiate, DE Sidious or somebody like that to overpower him with the Force before he closes distance. Revan is good (like Bane he was suspected to eb Sith;ari, was one of the Ones on Mortis) but he is not Force God level and he would not be able to handle Bane's speed or orbalisks.
Bro, it has been canonically established that Revan's command of the Force surpasses that of any individual whom Meetra Surik has met and it takes Vitiate or equivalent to push Revan to his limits.

Why do you think that Revan's other duels aren't so lengthy in the novel? Because Drew intends to convey the message that nothing pushes Revan to his limits apart from those who plan to shit on the whole Galaxy.

It isn't my fault if TOR era ELITES are so ridiculously overpowered/strong. We have to adjust with this new canonical promotion.

Bane is a formidable Sith Lord by all accounts but he has realistic limitations and weaknesses too. (This will be apparent to those who have scrutinized his performances properly)

I admit that I am not sure that who will win in a saber contest but Jedi Master Revan outguns him over-all.

Summary:

Sabers: Inconclusive
Force: Revan
All out: Revan 80/20 (Bane's chances are only with the saber)

This is as generous as I can get after being fully neutral about this duel.

Nephthys
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bro, feats wise, Revan isn't as nicely explored as Bane has been. Drew is to blame here. However, Revan's combat performance is above that of Bane's, as much as you protest against this point.

I find the claim of 'mediocre saber feats' and lack of 'offensive Force powers' questionable; Jedi Master Revan outgunned a formidable duelist in few steps, destroyed Darth Nyriss in a single attempt and put Vitiate on his @ss twice. If this isn't display of incredible power and skill, then I don't know what else to say. And his performance in Star Forge is also incredible.

Performance in combat situations is the right medium to judge a character.

Show me a single example of Bane, outgunning a formidable opponent in the manner as Revan did. Right, you can't.

Considering that feats are how we determine combat performance thats a pretty contradictory thing you just said. Bane is handily superior to Revan in lightsaber combat and has extremely powerful Force powers as well. His TK is easily above anything Revan is capable of at the least. With the orbalisks, this is a very one-sided fight imo. Bane demolishes Revan in lightsaber combat.

TheOneOfMortis
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bro, it has been canonically established that Revan's command of the Force surpasses that of any individual whom Meetra Surik has met and it takes Vitiate or equivalent to push Revan to his limits.

Why do you think that Revan's other duels aren't so lengthy in the novel? Because Drew intends to convey the message that nothing pushes Revan to his limits apart from those who plan to shit on the whole Galaxy.

It isn't my fault if TOR era ELITES are so ridiculously overpowered/strong. We have to adjust with this new canonical promotion.

Bane is a formidable Sith Lord by all accounts but he has realistic limitations and weaknesses too. (This will be apparent to those who have scrutinized his performances properly)

I admit that I am not sure that who will win in a saber contest but Jedi Master Revan outguns him over-all.

Summary:

Sabers: Inconclusive
Force: Revan
All out: Revan 80/20 (Bane's chances are only with the saber)

This is as generous as I can get after being fully neutral about this duel.

Not a chance dude. Without orbalisks and rain deat, it is probably close, as they are both powerful force users. force powers probably cancel eahc other out, both peformf good feats,m but with rain feat and orbalisks bane would be too much in the saber battle and beats him 99/100.

In fact, out of all the "human" characters (ie exluding liek nihilus, vitiate, de sidious, family of the ones and others) orbalisks and speed make bane too powerful in saber combat (you could also include people in between liek Starkiller who is a tier beyond people like bane/revn/yoda but below the titans i mentioned, who cold proably overpower with the force, but then you have to uestion tuf's leven of canon which isd uestionable at best).

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
Considering that feats are how we determine combat performance thats a pretty contradictory thing you just said.
What is contradictory in my statement?

Bane have always struggled against powerful individuals. This is apparent enough.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane is handily superior to Revan in lightsaber combat and has extremely powerful Force powers as well.
I absolutely disagree because his feats are simply depicted in more beautiful form.

It can be argued that Nyriss alone stands above many powerful individuals in the mythos. However, Revan destroyed an opponent of this calibre without breaking a sweat.

Sorry, Bane's combat performance is below that of Revan's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His TK is easily above anything Revan is capable of at the least.
And on what basis have you concluded this? We never seen Revan in a situation in which he had to gather his power and then channel or focus it directly towards any target. In case of Bane, we get to see him in such a situation.

In case of Revan, we always find him performing actions in quick fashion (during the course of events depicted in the novel). It is apparent from his feats in the novel that he can also toss large and heavy objects like missiles without breaking a sweat. We have never seen the maximum of Revan in terms of his TK's abilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
With the orbalisks, this is a very one-sided fight imo. Bane demolishes Revan in lightsaber combat.
I disagree. I can say that Revan conjures up an FLS and destroys Bane with it.

And yes, Revan knows Force Lightning as per canonical sources. He never abandoned the dark side fully.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Not a chance dude. Without orbalisks and rain deat, it is probably close, as they are both powerful force users.
This is true, if we consider Darth Revan; Jedi Master Revan is a tier above peak Bane.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
force powers probably cancel eahc other out, both peformf good feats,m but with rain feat and orbalisks bane would be too much in the saber battle and beats him 99/100.
No, Revan will dominate in a contest of Force powers. Sabers contest isn't so one-sided as well; keep in mind that Revan is also a very talented duelist; whether he faced Mandalorians; gigantic Droids; or formidable individuals - all were easy meals for him, even with sabers.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
In fact, out of all the "human" characters (ie exluding liek nihilus, vitiate, de sidious, family of the ones and others) orbalisks and speed make bane too powerful in saber combat (you could also include people in between liek Starkiller who is a tier beyond people like bane/revn/yoda but below the titans i mentioned, who cold proably overpower with the force, but then you have to uestion tuf's leven of canon which isd uestionable at best).
I will refrain from getting in to a heirarchy based debate here.

I do not think that Starkiller is above the likes of Bane, Revan and even Nyriss. He is just relatively much more explored in the context of Force powers. Different authors; different writing styles.

For me; performance in combat is all that counts.

Nephthys
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What is contradictory in my statement?

Bane have always struggled against powerful individuals. This is apparent enough.

Saying that Revan somehow has better performances despite having weaker feats. Kinda dumb.

Not really. Bane has nbeen pretty consistently portrayed as an unstoppable juggernaut in combat and I don't see what makes Revan so great that he's be able to best him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I absolutely disagree because his feats are simply depicted in more beautiful form.

Lolwut.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It can be argued that Nyriss alone stands above many powerful individuals in the mythos. However, Revan destroyed an opponent of this calibre without breaking a sweat.

Yes, Revan has great skill with lightning redirection. How does that translate into a being great in other areas?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And on what basis have you concluded this? We never seen Revan in a situation in which he had to gather his power and then channel or focus it directly towards any target. In case of Bane, we get to see him in such a situation.

In case of Revan, we always find him performing actions in quick fashion (during the course of events depicted in the novel). It is apparent from his feats in the novel that he can also toss large and heavy objects like missiles without breaking a sweat. We have never seen the maximum of Revan in terms of his TK's abilities.

So what? Thats my point, Revan has not demonstrated anywhere near the feats needed to beat Bane. You can whine about Revan having a limited media presence all you want, but that doesn't grant him that missing power. Where is your proof that he is close to Bane in terms of TK power? Bane has destroyed massive temples and disintegrated a dozen attackers at once. Revan's best feat is opening a door. There isn't even a comparison here.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I disagree. I can say that Revan conjures up an FLS and destroys Bane with it.

And yes, Revan knows Force Lightning as per canonical sources. He never abandoned the dark side fully.

And Bane blocks it with his lightsaber.

no expression

Oh I'm sorry, were you expecting me to be impressed about Revans force lightning skills of unknown power? Well I'm not. You cannot prove that it has enough power to get past Banes defenses or overload his orbalisks which tanked a million volts. GG Revan.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
Saying that Revan somehow has better performances despite having weaker feats. Kinda dumb.
Performance, in combat situations, are feats in whole, bro.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. Bane has nbeen pretty consistently portrayed as an unstoppable juggernaut in combat and I don't see what makes Revan so great that he's be able to best him.
Let us re-analyze Bane's performances then:

- Lord Kas'im proved to be a good match for Bane. You may argue that he is among the greatest duelists but he isn't noted much for his command in the Force. Even that power which Bane unleashed on Lord Kas'im after getting out of the Temple; did jack to the latter. Unfortunately for Lord Kas'im, he found himself in unfavorable circumstances and became a victim of it.

- Raskta Lsu proved to be a good match for Bane. You may argue that she is among the greatest duelists but she isn't noted much for her command of the Force either. So how come, Bane who is supposed to r**e opponents with the Force, could not manage to overcome Raskta in this manner at least? Zannah actually removed her from the picture.

- Darth Zannah proved to be a good match for Bane. Regardless of the martial superiority of Bane, just one talent of Zannah was sufficient to change the tide of this duel.

Revan is no slouch in Lightsaber combat either. He cannot be one of the Order's greatest champions without being exceptional in all aspects of combat; that he was. Every kind of opponent was easy meal for him with sabers. Just because we do not get to see him performing rain feat or something beautiful similarly, doesn't suggests that he cannot hold his own against other formidable duelists. Revan's precognitive abilities are legendary by all accounts. Even if an opponent is split-second late against him in a dueling contest; game is over for the opponent.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lolwut.
Yes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, Revan has great skill with lightning redirection. How does that translate into a being great in other areas?
Do you think that one gains this level of proficiency without considerable understanding of the Force in general? Ask Yoda.

Force Lightning is a symbol of pride for powerful Force-wielders. Tanking such kind of powers is no easy feat.

If Bane unleashes his Force Lightning against Revan; he is effectively doomed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So what? Thats my point, Revan has not demonstrated anywhere near the feats needed to beat Bane. You can whine about Revan having a limited media presence all you want, but that doesn't grant him that missing power. Where is your proof that he is close to Bane in terms of TK power?
I have already pointed out that we never saw Revan in a situation in which he gathered his power and then channeled and/or focused it towards anything. This is evidence enough.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane has destroyed massive temples
Correction: He destroyed the entrance of a (unmaintained) Temple in Lehon. And he performed this feat after he gathered his power and channeled it towards the intended target; which did jack to the opponent by the way who isn't even noted much for his command in the Force. Revan laughs.

Originally posted by Nephthys and disintegrated a dozen attackers at once.
And these attackers even compare to an ordinary Jedi in the context of defensive abilities; let alone Revan?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan's best feat is opening a door. There isn't even a comparison here.
Those two doors were enormous in size:

Despite this, he still felt a chill in his gut when he saw again the enormous durasteel doors of the throne room.

Heavy:

The two soldiers who had been about to push open the heavy durasteel doors froze in place.

and also sealed.

Revan effortlessely handled this level of blockade:

Before they could join in the fight, Revan thrust his hand, palm up, in the direction of the sealed durasteel doors, blasting them wide open with the power of the Force.

It isn't like Maul messing with the electronics of a relatively much smaller single door to force it to open.

Also, if you consider concrete structures;

At the far end of the hall, another half a dozen of the Imperial Guard rounded the corner. Revan reached out with the Force and ripped the vaulted stone archway in the ceiling above them free from its setting. A shower of dust and debris rained down on the reinforcements, sending them into temporary retreat.

No where it is implied that Revan gathered his power to perform these feats. He simply gestured and feats happened.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Bane blocks it with his lightsaber.

no expression
Easy for you to say. Revan's Force Lightining can engulf the whole body of the target and not just the Lightsaber like you saw in the Battle of Geonosis.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh I'm sorry, were you expecting me to be impressed about Revans force lightning skills of unknown power? Well I'm not. You cannot prove that it has enough power to get past Banes defenses or overload his orbalisks which tanked a million volts. GG Revan.
Show me the exact detail involving tanking of Force Lightning.

Revan could easily handle extremely lethal bursts of Force Lightning; his own power would not be lesser by any means.

S_W_LeGenD
Ten standard years had passed since he had lost his orbalisk armor. Ten years since his body had been burned almost beyond recognition by the devastating power of Force lightning unleashed from his own hand. Ten years since the healer Caleb had brought him back from the brink of death and Zannah, his apprentice, had slaughtered Caleb and the Jedi who had come to find them. (Dynasty of Evil)

Some tanking? Huh?

Pwned
Are you seriously dismissing Bane because of that? I find this LUL worthy.



On a serious note, Bane was compared to, "a force of nature" in RoT by Farfalla. Nothing they could do at all would be able to stop him. In a straight fight, Bane has emerged victorious every time, be it due to prowess, strength, or cunning (which he has all 3 of)
His lightning can also reduce armored men to ash (In RoT, after getting to Onderon from Dxun. Turns a guy who captured Zannah into ash)

Kas'im The Magnificent: Fought a Bane who had just barely left the Academy. Not to mention had an intimate knowledge of his saber style.

Raskta: Was handily losing while empowered by battle meditation. They were losing, they knew it. They had thought their last chance would have been for the other guy to kill Zannah and come help. Bane is just that good.

Zannah: Won by Deus Ex Machina. Bane had far superior showings in the Force, and handily beat her with sabers. There are very few circumstances where she could replicate that feat, and he still nearly won. A part of him remained inside her consciousness.

Neph has a half-decent assessment, of Bane being a juggernaut. Personally, I view it as him being totally unstoppable barring Deus Ex Machina.

(Oh, and orbalisks give him Force-steroids as well. Amplifies his power by a large amount)

Ascendancy
It's funny that people want to belittle the feats and abilities of Bane and his contemporaries then pretend like others in the Old Republic pwn beyond all measure when there's no evidence to support that Bane's era was lacking in any way.

Fact is that the author's portrayals are canon, and just like we have to accept that Jacen was somehow able to over come Mara Jade by trickery, it has to be accepted that when someone's abilities are considered to be formidable that they are just that.

It's funny that Malgus, Revan, and a few other OR Force users are defended to the end but those same people always want to argue that Kas'im, Lsu, Farfalla, the entire Sith order, and in the end Bane are somehow garbage who had the benefit of clever writing on their side.

Canon is canon and based on what has been given to us Bane in orbalisks is an all-out offensive nightmare for most anyone. His speed, recovery, healing, and Force prowess are all amped up and short of decapitation there is almost no way to take him down. Revan dies again and again and again.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Pwned
Are you seriously dismissing Bane because of that? I find this LUL worthy.
Dismissing Bane on the basis of what exactly?

Originally posted by Pwned
On a serious note, Bane was compared to, "a force of nature" in RoT by Farfalla.
May I remind you that how Jedi Master Kriea defined Revan?

Originally posted by Pwned
Nothing they could do at all would be able to stop him. In a straight fight, Bane has emerged victorious every time, be it due to prowess, strength, or cunning (which he has all 3 of)
This is absolutely wrong.

-Did he emerge victorious against Zannah on his own?
-Did he emerge victorious against Raskta Lsu on his own?

His best showing is against Lord Kas'im.

I fully acknowledge the fact that Bane was intelligent. But so was Revan.

When Revan faced a formidable duelist in combat; he didn't exchange blow after blow with the opponent. Instead, he aided his actions with acrobatics and his exceptional precognitive abilities allowed him to outgun such a martial opponent ASAP.

For Revan, every kind of opponent was easy meal with sabers. This makes sense because he had previously fought through an entire army of Sith to reach the position of Darth Malak on Star Forge. This could only be possible through combination of great intelligence, skill with the blade and power of the Force.

Originally posted by Pwned
His lightning can also reduce armored men to ash (In RoT, after getting to Onderon from Dxun. Turns a guy who captured Zannah into ash)
Using the word 'armored' is futile unless that armor was designed to resist the effects of Force Lightning.

Darth Nyriss reduced two soldiers to charred smoking husks in split-second with just a casual burst of Force Lightning, as per her standards.

Bane's proficiency with Force Lightning isn't in question here; I can expect him to overwhelm many many potential opponents with Force Lightning; but Revan is on a different league then most in this aspect.

Originally posted by Pwned
Kas'im The Magnificent: Fought a Bane who had just barely left the Academy. Not to mention had an intimate knowledge of his saber style.
Bane was a fast learner nonetheless and had outperformed all students in the Academy during his time. When a Sith leaves an Academy, he is assumed to be prepared for external threats beyond.

Also, Bane learned a lot from Revan's holocron prior to his confrontation with Lord Kas'im; he had ample time for this. His power in the dark side coupled with immense knowledge of the Sith Lore was a winning combination.

Lord Kas'im was a great warrior IMO; a unique individual among the generally weak and pathetic brotherhood of darkness. But then canon implies that one has to be Vitiate or equivalent to push Revan to his limits. So what shall we do? Stop using logic?

Originally posted by Pwned
Raskta: Was handily losing while empowered by battle meditation. They were losing, they knew it. They had thought their last chance would have been for the other guy to kill Zannah and come help. Bane is just that good.
They weren't loosing as long as BM was in effect. Unfortunately for them, Bane disturbed the guy who was aiding the other Jedi with BM with the Force, if I recall correctly. But then these Jedi did not offered much to Bane and Zannah in terms of offensive capabilities apart from their martial abilities.

Originally posted by Pwned
Zannah: Won by Deus Ex Machina. Bane had far superior showings in the Force, and handily beat her with sabers. There are very few circumstances where she could replicate that feat, and he still nearly won. A part of him remained inside her consciousness.
I believe that Bane could handle her in a nuetral setting. Zannah's command of Sith Sorcery gaver her the edge she needed in the setting involving a dark side nexus. However, she endured all that martial pressure of Bane for a while which assures me that someone as capable as Revan can also do. His talents would permit him to do so and may even grant him an opening.

Some of the Revan's major opponents were also proficient in Sith Sorcery. Just a point to note.

Originally posted by Pwned
Neph has a half-decent assessment, of Bane being a juggernaut. Personally, I view it as him being totally unstoppable barring Deus Ex Machina.
I admire your liking of this character; he is also among the favorites of mine. However, Bane isn't the unstoppable juggernaut of destruction that some make him out to be.

Originally posted by Pwned
(Oh, and orbalisks give him Force-steroids as well. Amplifies his power by a large amount)
Revan was extraordinarily powerful without such aids.

jadams3928
If Bane has his orbalisks, Revan can force storm his orbalisks for a fast kill. Bane is REALLY at a disadvantage with his orbalisks when he's fighting someone who possesses force lightning. When it's on the level of a force storm, forget about it.

ares834
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
was one of the Ones on Mortis

No he was not. There is a reason that that scene was not in the episode.

Nephthys
Don't bother. That retard will continue to spout that ****ing bullshit no matter what you say.

Nephthys
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Performance, in combat situations, are feats in whole, bro.

'Performance' is a nebulous thing to use as a base of comparison. Certain characters who are portrayed as unstoppable Wargods are not actually that great.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Let us re-analyze Bane's performances then:

- Lord Kas'im proved to be a good match for Bane. You may argue that he is among the greatest duelists but he isn't noted much for his command in the Force. Even that power which Bane unleashed on Lord Kas'im after getting out of the Temple; did jack to the latter. Unfortunately for Lord Kas'im, he found himself in unfavorable circumstances and became a victim of it.

Indeed, you know that Kas'im is considered by many here to be top-tier in terms of lightsaber skills, and no he isn't known for being great in the Force but nor is he known to be weak in it. Bane was overpowering Kas'im due to being much more powerful than him. Also as Q99 said this was Bane still as an apprentice. As for the Force Wave, it was a Force Wave, meaning that only a small part of it actually hit Kas'im. It was aimed at the temple and succeeded in destroying it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Raskta Lsu proved to be a good match for Bane. You may argue that she is among the greatest duelists but she isn't noted much for her command of the Force either. So how come, Bane who is supposed to r**e opponents with the Force, could not manage to overcome Raskta in this manner at least? Zannah actually removed her from the picture.

Yes, she was a great duelist and had the benefit of battle meditation and allies like Farfalla, who btw protected her from Bane's Force attacks (Bane would have killed her in a single force push otherwise).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Darth Zannah proved to be a good match for Bane. Regardless of the martial superiority of Bane, just one talent of Zannah was sufficient to change the tide of this duel.

Bane was clearly the superior. He was able to fight her off without a freaking lightsaber at one point. It was only when he busted out the tentacles that he lost.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan is no slouch in Lightsaber combat either. He cannot be one of the Order's greatest champions without being exceptional in all aspects of combat; that he was. Every kind of opponent was easy meal for him with sabers. Just because we do not get to see him performing rain feat or something beautiful similarly, doesn't suggests that he cannot hold his own against other formidable duelists. Revan's precognitive abilities are legendary by all accounts. Even if an opponent is split-second late against him in a dueling contest; game is over for the opponent.

Blah blah blah you love Revan, we know. There is nothing here that's actually usable as proof of his skill. 'Every kind of opponent was easy meal for him with sabers' LOL!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes.

Beauty refers of someones appearance, not as you were using it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you think that one gains this level of proficiency without considerable understanding of the Force in general? Ask Yoda.

Force Lightning is a symbol of pride for powerful Force-wielders. Tanking such kind of powers is no easy feat.

If Bane unleashes his Force Lightning against Revan; he is effectively doomed.

This does not mean that Revan is equally as good in other combat areas as he is in Tutaminis.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have already pointed out that we never saw Revan in a situation in which he gathered his power and then channeled and/or focused it towards anything. This is evidence enough.

No, it isn't. It is an absence of evidence. You have nothing to support your argument because Revan never demonstrated exceptional offensive Force powers, as i said.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Correction: He destroyed the entrance of a (unmaintained) Temple in Lehon. And he performed this feat after he gathered his power and channeled it towards the intended target; which did jack to the opponent by the way who isn't even noted much for his command in the Force. Revan laughs.

The feat is still far and away superior to anything Revan has done. smile

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And these attackers even compare to an ordinary Jedi in the context of defensive abilities; let alone Revan?

They were made of metal, if thats what you mean. It is a destructive feat on a level above Revan by far. That they were no Jedi means nothing, especially when you tout others feats against non-Jedi as it pleases you.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Those two doors were enormous in size:

Despite this, he still felt a chill in his gut when he saw again the enormous durasteel doors of the throne room.

Heavy:

The two soldiers who had been about to push open the heavy durasteel doors froze in place.

and also sealed.

Revan effortlessely handled this level of blockade:

Before they could join in the fight, Revan thrust his hand, palm up, in the direction of the sealed durasteel doors, blasting them wide open with the power of the Force.

It isn't like Maul messing with the electronics of a relatively much smaller single door to force it to open.

Also, if you consider concrete structures;

At the far end of the hall, another half a dozen of the Imperial Guard rounded the corner. Revan reached out with the Force and ripped the vaulted stone archway in the ceiling above them free from its setting. A shower of dust and debris rained down on the reinforcements, sending them into temporary retreat.

No where it is implied that Revan gathered his power to perform these feats. He simply gestured and feats happened.

Wow, thats awesome.

Still not even close to Bane in terms of power. smile

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Easy for you to say. Revan's Force Lightining can engulf the whole body of the target and not just the Lightsaber like you saw in the Battle of Geonosis.

Lol, when does Revan unleash Force Lightning that engulfs a persons whole body? Not that it matters as Bane can draw the bolts into his lightsaber, which is how blocking with one works. Did you think the bolts just happened to only hit the blade?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Show me the exact detail involving tanking of Force Lightning.

In ROT he is struck by multiple Force pikes which shocked him with over a million volts. The orbalisks absorbed all of it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan could easily handle extremely lethal bursts of Force Lightning; his own power would not be lesser by any means.

They are completely different techniques on completely different sides of the Force.

Eminence
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/28154643.jpg

Nephthys
Nice catch.

I... must be tired to have missed that. embarrasment

TheOneOfMortis
Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't bother. That retard will continue to spout that ****ing bullshit no matter what you say.

Yo, let me tell y'all a story 'bout a girl I knew, / A broke-ass ***** with a gay-ass crew. / She said that I was cute. She said that I was funny. / But the honey couldn't stop lookin' at my money. / Busted old lady with a flat tiny ass. / Her body like a skeleton in science class. / Face beat up by the school of hard knocks. / Hair so fried it bleached my Clorox. / It's like she's skinny, fat in all the wrong places. / Mothers gotta cover their babies' faces. / When she walks by people think she's Godzilla. / Straight outta Compton? Nah, y'all, straight outta "Thriller." / Lookin' like a zombie, walkin' like a chicken. / Mouth full of shit that's why her breath be stinkin'. / Just one question, Neph, before you take your bow. / This gravy train's leaving, so who's retarded now?

Nephthys
You are. Partially because its fun to troll you, but mostly because you really are blisteringly stupid.

TheOneOfMortis
Hey buddy your cranium rang, it has some space to rent.

Nephthys
Originally posted by shinkoryu
Nephthys? This guy actually argues really intelligently and he isn't a stubborn donkey unlike you.

Come back when your intelligence is a widespread fact junior. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-smuggo.gif

As opposed to the joke we all tell at the watercooler.

L30nidas
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Is this Darth Revan or Jedi Master Revan?


So it is necessary to pick an incarnation of Revan here.

In KOTOR, Malak said to Revan that he's more powerful than ever. So it's Revan at that point, where he uses light and dark sided powers and defeated Malak, blew up Death Sta- ummm, Star Forge, and was generally awesome.

TheOneOfMortis
Originally posted by Nephthys
Come back when your intelligence is a widespread fact junior. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-smuggo.gif

As opposed to the joke we all tell at the watercooler.

Only a fool would make thread that only receives 2 posts:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=573817

edit - btw in sports forums I am renowned for my insight and analysis into sport of MMA.

Pwned
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dismissing Bane on the basis of what exactly?


May I remind you that how Jedi Master Kriea defined Revan?


This is absolutely wrong.

-Did he emerge victorious against Zannah on his own?
-Did he emerge victorious against Raskta Lsu on his own?

His best showing is against Lord Kas'im.

I fully acknowledge the fact that Bane was intelligent. But so was Revan.

When Revan faced a formidable duelist in combat; he didn't exchange blow after blow with the opponent. Instead, he aided his actions with acrobatics and his exceptional precognitive abilities allowed him to outgun such a martial opponent ASAP.

For Revan, every kind of opponent was easy meal with sabers. This makes sense because he had previously fought through an entire army of Sith to reach the position of Darth Malak on Star Forge. This could only be possible through combination of great intelligence, skill with the blade and power of the Force.


Using the word 'armored' is futile unless that armor was designed to resist the effects of Force Lightning.

Darth Nyriss reduced two soldiers to charred smoking husks in split-second with just a casual burst of Force Lightning, as per her standards.

Bane's proficiency with Force Lightning isn't in question here; I can expect him to overwhelm many many potential opponents with Force Lightning; but Revan is on a different league then most in this aspect.


Bane was a fast learner nonetheless and had outperformed all students in the Academy during his time. When a Sith leaves an Academy, he is assumed to be prepared for external threats beyond.

Also, Bane learned a lot from Revan's holocron prior to his confrontation with Lord Kas'im; he had ample time for this. His power in the dark side coupled with immense knowledge of the Sith Lore was a winning combination.

Lord Kas'im was a great warrior IMO; a unique individual among the generally weak and pathetic brotherhood of darkness. But then canon implies that one has to be Vitiate or equivalent to push Revan to his limits. So what shall we do? Stop using logic?


They weren't loosing as long as BM was in effect. Unfortunately for them, Bane disturbed the guy who was aiding the other Jedi with BM with the Force, if I recall correctly. But then these Jedi did not offered much to Bane and Zannah in terms of offensive capabilities apart from their martial abilities.


I believe that Bane could handle her in a nuetral setting. Zannah's command of Sith Sorcery gaver her the edge she needed in the setting involving a dark side nexus. However, she endured all that martial pressure of Bane for a while which assures me that someone as capable as Revan can also do. His talents would permit him to do so and may even grant him an opening.

Some of the Revan's major opponents were also proficient in Sith Sorcery. Just a point to note.


I admire your liking of this character; he is also among the favorites of mine. However, Bane isn't the unstoppable juggernaut of destruction that some make him out to be.


Revan was extraordinarily powerful without such aids. The post above mentioned Bane nearly dying to his own lightning. I may have misread, but it sounded like his tanking ability was dismissed due to this.

Against Lsu, he was fighting 2 Masters empowered by Battle Meditation, and another Knight (who was useful because of Lsu)

Truth be told, Neph answered most of these in a post higher up the page. So in the interest of cutting redundancy, I must refer you to it.


Also, Bane is still a beast without the orbalisks, as I am sure you know due to being a fan of him. However, he is pretty damn close to an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction. He doesn't get around Top 5 Sith of All Time for no reason stick out tongue

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis


edit - btw in sports forums I am renowned for my insight and analysis into sport of MMA.

WTF has that got to do w/ Star Wars, Darth Ray Park? And how are you still here? You've been reported multiple times and yet here you are. Will the admins. do their job? And nobody ***king cares about your fake ass fantasy MMA stats and bullshit imagined occupation as a SW writer. Man, get out with that crap. You're a fake!

Eminence
laughing out loud

TheOneOfMortis
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
WTF has that got to do w/ Star Wars, Darth Ray Park? And how are you still here? You've been reported multiple times and yet here you are. Will the admins. do their job? And nobody ***king cares about your fake ass fantasy MMA stats and bullshit imagined occupation as a SW writer. Man, get out with that crap. You're a fake!

Buddy, quit being upset at the fact that my mma knowledge is vastly greater than yours and you got you ass handed to you in our last debate on the topic.

Come to the sports forums and prove me wrong i you can, but i dont think youre going to do that, and its because you is scared.

BTW, never claimed to be SW writer buddy.

Pwned
Actually..... You did. You also claimed to have filmed for Revenge of the Sith and Attack of the Clones. You claimed to have met Lucas himself....




Truth be told, you are like the dog that we allow to come around because it is entertaining to watch you be stupid.

TheOneOfMortis
Buddy you obviously dont remember correctly yes I worked as a member of the crew on Attack of the Clones and I do know George personally, but I didn't claim to have worked on the screenplays for the films, I have written screenplays for other projects though (most notably I wrote some of the episodes for tv sitcom "It's Always sunny in Philadelphia" as well as the lyrics for some of the songs).

Pwned
Still not buying it.


And you just confirmed what I said right after saying, "You obviously don't remember correctly"


Also, grammar. It is your friend.

TheOneOfMortis
Nope, never claimed to work on Revenge of the Sith or to be a SW writer, pal. Admit your mistakes champ seeing as that was one of your accutsations, bro.

-kV-
Why are people so easily dismissing Revan here? If you ask me, I say he wins this fight, and this contest is very much even.

TheOneOfMortis
Even without orbalisks maybe. With them Bane has major advantage.

-kV-
If I recall from the book (it has been a long time since I've read it), Force Lightning killed the Orbalisks I thought? Revan could fire a Force Lightning, or redirect Bane's Lightning back at the parasites.

juggerman
Originally posted by -kV-
If I recall from the book (it has been a long time since I've read it), Force Lightning killed the Orbalisks I thought? Revan could fire a Force Lightning, or redirect Bane's Lightning back at the parasites.

Bane's own super amped Force Lightning contained in a very small area killed them. Doesn't mean any FL would.

And Bane now knows their weakness while Revan may not so Bane would have a huge advantage and know exaclty what to watch out for

Pwned
They have a point. Bane's lightning was essentially like firing a nuclear reactor at the time. The orbalisks absorbed 1 million volts. To take them out as quickly as he did, it was probably in the tens of millions. This may be due to the confined space, however.

TheOneOfMortis
Originally posted by Pwned
They have a point. Bane's lightning was essentially like firing a nuclear reactor at the time. The orbalisks absorbed 1 million volts. To take them out as quickly as he did, it was probably in the tens of millions. This may be due to the confined space, however.

Did you receive my PM?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
'Performance' is a nebulous thing to use as a base of comparison. Certain characters who are portrayed as unstoppable Wargods are not actually that great.
Bro, comparison of feats is rather a subjective approach of solving a problem such as this one. Not all characters have been explored equally in depth in written literature; quality of exploration may also differ from novel to novel or medium to medium.

Darth Bane's story spans 3 novels. In comparison, Revan has been featured in just one novel. I do not know if the author who wrote these novels was pressured by the higher authorities in Star Wars to explore Revan at minimum possible level or the author deliberately left some questions about Revan unanswered. Unfortunately for this debate, Darth Bane is much better defined and explored then Revan in novels. However, it is still possible to put things in context in this debate and I am finally in the position to do so after revisiting all novels featuring Darth Bane and Revan. Continue to read below.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Indeed, you know that Kas'im is considered by many here to be top-tier in terms of lightsaber skills, and no he isn't known for being great in the Force but nor is he known to be weak in it. Bane was overpowering Kas'im due to being much more powerful than him.
Important thing here is to understand that how Darth Bane survived against an opponent who was relatively superior duelist.

1. Darth Bane fought Kas'im in a setting where he had advantage; the former individual had decent knowledge of the Temple's layout.

2. Darth Bane's command of the dark side had also relatively improved by this point:

In only a few short weeks he'd learned more about the true nature of the dark side than he had in all his time on Korriban. Revan had been a true Sith Lord, unlike the simpering Masters who bowed to Kaan and his Brotherhood. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

When the duel began, this improved understanding of the dark side proved to be vital for Darth Bane:

Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense.

Then he went on the attack. In the past he had always been afraid to surrender his will to the raw emotions that fueled the dark side. Now he had no such limitations; for the first time he was calling on his full potential.

Great understanding of the dark side made all the difference in this fight; the superiority of the opponent in martial aspects of combat was nullified in this manner.

This observation makes sense even for Darth Sidious. Martial skills wise, Darth Sidious did not matched the greats of the Jedi Order such as Mace Windu and Yoda. Luke Skywalker also bested Darth Sidious in a lightsaber duel. However, the Sith Lord's great understanding of the dark side allowed him to contend with any kind of adversary.

Understanding of the Force has always been an important factor in combat; aspects such as speed and precognition are also tied with this understanding. Instead of focusing on the sentences, we (as debaters) should rather focus on mechanics of the Force for guidance. This can make our task much easier at solving ambiguities involved in versus threads.

-------

As a side example; the assumption that Darth Sidious would manage to blitz an opponent of the caliber of Darth Bane and/or Revan is absurd. Words such as 'blur' prove nothing; they are used to impress the audience/readers. Understanding of the Force is what actually matters (an underlying principle in Star Wars) and makes difference. The 3 Jedi Masters whom Darth Sidious slaughtered so quickly couldn't do jack against the Sith Lord because their actual understanding of the Force was relatively much much weaker. Martial skills couldn't save them and bridge this enormous gap. In contrast, Mace's talents not just afforded him survival but also advantage; his understanding of the Force was relatively much better then those of the other 3 Jedi Masters. These same Jedi Masters (excluding Mace) who fell so easily against an opponent whose understanding of the Force had been miles ahead of theirs, hold no candle to the likes of Darth Bane and Revan in understanding of the Force either. wink

Not convinced yet?

Ever wondered that how young Darth Vader overcame Sin Drallig (blademaster of the Jedi Order in his time) in a duel? Through his superior command of the Force (logically). In contrast, ever wondered that why Shaak Ti managed to prevent same Darth Vader from overcoming her in the same raid? Because her command of the Force was relatively superior to that of Cin Drallig's (logically).

Makes sense now, right? wink

The sole reason behind Revan outgunning an Imperial Guard individual so quickly in a duel is his immense command of the Force. Keep in mind that Imperial Guard individuals are trained to fight all kinds of duelists. Their preferred choice of weapon is lightwhip. If stationed near Sith Emperor, these individuals can even make themselves (or become) virtually immune to Jedi powers. Interestingly when Luke Skywalker faced an opponent wielding a lightwhip in combat for the first time, he lost. Afterwards, Luke further refined his martial skills and used two blades to defeat the same opponent in the second encounter.

In the nutshell, command of the Force influences performance in both martial and non-martial aspects of combat.

-------

Now that it has been established that how Darth Bane dealt with martial prowess of Lord Kas'im; we also need to focus on the exchange of Force powers:

Battling through the halls and corridors, the combatants rounded a corner to bring them in sight of the Rakatan Temple's only entrance: the wide archway and the small landing beyond, with the wide staircase leading back down to the ground nearly twenty meters below. In the instant it took Kas'im to recognize where they were and realize that his opponent might still escape, Bane thrust out with the Force. He knocked the Twi'lek off balance for a brief second, then backflipped out through the archway and onto the landing. He dropped into a crouch, still facing his opponent. But in his haste Bane had leapt too far; he was balanced precariously on the precipice of the uppermost stair, the steps falling sharply away behind him.

Kas'im responded by using the Force to knock Bane backward, sending him tumbling down the great stone staircase, away from the Blademaster. The fall would have broken his neck-or at least fractured an arm or a leg-if Bane hadn't cocooned himself in the Force. Even so he reached the bottom bruised, battered, and momentarily stunned.

As you can note here, Darth Bane failed to neutralize Lord Kas'im with the power he could unleash with a simple gesture. More surprisingly, Darth Bane couldn't defend himself against similar assault from Lord Kas'im.

Yes, Darth Bane found the opportunity to fully unlock his raw potential in the Force after he disconnected from the heat of the combat. He gathered his power and unleashed it towards Lord Kas'im's position. The power released was potent enough to collapse the ancient Temple or part of it. But it still was not potent enough to overcome the defensive abilities of a trained Force-wielder.

One underlying message here is that their is difference between what can be achieved with simple gestures during the heat of combat and what can be achieved after sufficient time is found to gather considerable power.

Another underlying message here is that the defensive abilities of a trained Force-wielder should not be underestimated. It is sheer folly to attempt to determine the chances of a trained Force-wielder against another solely on the basis of TK (based) feats and this is my intended message since the beginning of this thread. Feats are important to consider but under appropriate context.

Not convinced yet?

In a fight between an unknown Zabrak Jedi and Darth Malgus in Aldeeran, the former used the Force to collapse two buildings around the position of the Sith Lord in an attempt to crush him. Just like in the case of Lord Kas'im, Darth Malgus found himself trapped within a mountain of rubble. However, it shall be noted that only a certain part of the rubble could fall over a single individual and not the whole of it in both cases. And not surprisingly, the major distinguishing point between Darth Maglus and Lord Kas'im is in the command of the Force and/or dark side. This difference was also the deciding factor in the difference between the outcomes in these two separate events under similar situations.

S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD
Darth Nyriss first took care of T3-M4 droid; then she took care of the two guards simultaneously; and eventually she took care of two talented Force-wielders (EXPERT duelists) simultaneously.

Darth Nyriss apparently represents a mixture of Darth Bane (with orbalisks) and Darth Zannah in capabilities.

However, Darth Nyriss proves to be much more calculative and effective in her actions then Darth Bane (with orbalisks). She doesn't grants her opponents any kind of opportunity to go on the offensive against her and/or coordinate their efforts against her; such is her skill and command of the dark side. Unlike Darth Bane (with orbalisks), Darth Nyriss cannot afford to take risks and she doesn't.

-------

Just check what Darth Bane does in the opening phase of the duel:

As they burst into the room a man who could only have been Darth Bane charged recklessly toward them. In any other instance the move would have spelled a quick end to the encounter, as Raskta raced ahead of Farfalla to carve the Sith to pieces. (Darth Bane: Rule of Two)

In contrast, check what Darth Nyriss does in the opening phase of the duel:

She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.

Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with the all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime. She landed right between her two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive. (SWTOR: Revan)

-------

Notice the difference in strategy here?

Darth Bane (with orbalisks) recklessly charges towards his opponents (i.e., Raskta Lsu and Valenthyne Farfalla) and in this manner, provides ample opportunity to his opponents to attack him and coordinate their efforts against him.

-------

You may argue that the Jedi in Darth Bane's case were aided by BM but orbalisks effectively nullified this advantage:

Had the Jedi enjoyed the same advantages Bane's orbalisk armor provided, their encounter would have ended long ago. Bane could shrug off otherwise lethal blows, forgoing all sense of personal safety in a reckless assault of pure offense to overwhelm her defenses. (Darth Bane: Rule of Two)

In addition, orbalisks augmented Darth Bane's power. In the nutshell, orbalisks and BM cancelled each other out.

Regardless of the benefits of the orbalisks, Darth Bane still didn't demonstrate the ability to prevent the Jedi from coordinating their efforts against him with his Force powers. He did not demonstrate the ability to toss a Jedi away from him with an invisible wave of rippling energy while he would concentrate on the other. After Johun Othone joined the fight and Darth Bane was disarmed, the Sith Lord temporarily broke Jedi coordination by unleashing a Force Wave. But Darth Zannah's intervention brought the much needed relief.

Your claim that Darth Bane could kill Raskta Lsu with a Force push is also misleading:

The impact of the wave would have plastered her against the wall and crushed her had Farfalla not thrown up a shield to protect the Echani. (Darth Bane: Rule of Two)

She could die from impact with the wall. However, she wasn't good at protecting herself from Force powers and neither she was physically as strong as Lord Scourge.

As far as the claim of Darth Bane (with orbalisks) as an unstoppable juggernaut is concerned;

Zannah felt the gathering dark side power of her Master, but in the instant before he unleashed the storm of deadly purple lightning, the Ithorian reached up from the floor and clutched him by his ankle. A shimmering blue globe surrounded them both as the mortally wounded Jedi released his own power in his final, dying act.

Instead of arcing across the room to destroy the one-armed Jedi, the lightning that flew from Bane's fingers reflected off the inside of the shimmering blue globe encasing him. The bolts ricocheted around wildly inside the globe, creating a storm of energy so intense that Zannah had to shield her eyes and look away. She heard Bane's scream rising above the sharp crackle of electricity, and when she looked back she saw the globe vanish and her Master fall to the ground in a charred and smoking heap. (Darth Bane: Rule of Two)

No sign from Darth Bane of having his guard up to save him from his own attack during this moment. Need I say more?

Revan's raw power and command of the Force was sufficient to overcome an even deadlier dark side attack:

Just then, Revan emerged from the cell. He had pulled the hood of his Jedi robe up to cover his head, and he wore the red-and-gray mask, hiding his face.

A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies. Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it.

Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide. He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power.

"I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And before me you are nothing."

Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.

Scourge slowly clambered to his feet as Revan helped Meetra up. In the corner, the upended astromech let out a plaintive whistle and awkwardly managed to rock himself back into an upright position. (SWTOR: Revan)

The attack was so lethal that even Darth Nyriss's own defensive abilities failed to save her from it.

In the nutshell;

1. Darth Nyriss puts even Darth Bane (with orbalisks) to shame.

2. Revan is more impressive then Worror.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane was clearly the superior. He was able to fight her off without a freaking lightsaber at one point. It was only when he busted out the tentacles that he lost.
Unfortunately for Darth Bane, he didn't concentrated much on increasing his understanding of Sith Sorcery. His martial skills had no answer for this threat. Someone such as Darth Nyriss may have had answer for this kind of threat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Blah blah blah you love Revan, we know. There is nothing here that's actually usable as proof of his skill. 'Every kind of opponent was easy meal for him with sabers' LOL!
My likes are irrelevant here. Revan's chances are to determined by his command of the Force which is exceptional by all accounts and in a time when true Sith existed.

However, it was more than the Jedi's raw power that interested Scourge. Unlike all the instructors at the Academy, or even Nyriss herself, Revan had experienced both the light and dark sides of the Force. He had a unique perspective on its strengths and weaknesses, and Scour0ge was eager to learn from his experience. (SWTOR: Revan)

Sorry bro, Darth Bane seems to be outgunned and outclassed in this contest. My conclusion remains unchanged.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Beauty refers of someones appearance, not as you were using it.
Well;

Their lightsabers danced, blurring and sweeping and shedding sparks in a way that would have been beautiful had their intent not been so deadly. The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job. (The Force Unleashed)

She and Darth Malgus bounded across the ruins of the Temple, their blades flashing, locking, the speed of their duel so fast Zeerid could barely follow their movement. Despite himself, he found the combat beautiful. (SWTOR: Deceived)

Originally posted by Nephthys
This does not mean that Revan is equally as good in other combat areas as he is in Tutaminis.
Nothing implies that Revan is weak in any aspect of the Force. He cannot be since his command of the Force is immense.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it isn't. It is an absence of evidence. You have nothing to support your argument because Revan never demonstrated exceptional offensive Force powers, as i said.
You need to understand the difference between feats performed in an instant and feats performed after gathering of power. By using the example of Darth Bane, I have contrasted this difference for you above.

In addition, absence of proof is not proof of absence. In each example of Revan's TK based feat (in the novel), emphasis of the author is on Revan's self-control rather then on the Jedi Master's raw power in effect for devastating results. Revan is shown to be very calculative about how much power he wishes to exert in a given situation.

As an example:-

Under calm situation:

Reaching out to the Force, Revan focused on the lid. After a moment it began to move, the edge grating along the lip of the lower half of the sarcophagus as it slowly rose into the air.

Careful not to let the heavy lid drop, he moved it off to the side and gently lowered it to the floor. Then he stepped up to the sarcophagus and peered inside. (SWTOR: Revan)

During the heat of combat:

A second later a trio of grenades skittered across the floor, bouncing and rolling to a stop near the base of the sarcophagus.

The instant before they detonated, Revan reached out with the Force and hurled the heavy stone lid of the sarcophagus toward the grenades. It acted as a shield, absorbing the worst of the blast before exploding into pebbles and dust. (SWTOR: Revan)

In the second scenario, Revan's performance is impressive by even Jedi standards. However, Revan performed this feat in split-second or even quicker; no gathering of power involved in this case as well.

For another example involving TK based feat from Revan, please check my response to member (Eminence) below.

One particular event in which Revan's raw power is in effect is against Darth Nyriss:

Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyris's Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord. (Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion)

Greatest feats in Star Wars always involve gathering of power in which raw power of the individual is unleashed to devastating effect or for amazing results.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The feat is still far and away superior to anything Revan has done. smile
I wouldn't be so quick to make this kind of claim for a character whose full extent of abilities are not yet known and neither the character has been explored much in terms of Force powers.

As hinted above, collapse of an ancient (unmaintained) Temple doesn't proves that Darth Bane would be able to accomplish anything significant against an opponent as powerful as Revan with his TK based efforts.

Stop relying on superficial aspects of combat to support your arguments from now own. These tactics are useless.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They were made of metal, if thats what you mean. It is a destructive feat on a level above Revan by far. That they were no Jedi means nothing, especially when you tout others feats against non-Jedi as it pleases you.
Can you identify these opponents for me? Vague statements will not help your cause.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wow, thats awesome.

Still not even close to Bane in terms of power. smile
This feat is also about self-control rather then about devastation.

Details are in my response to member (Eminence) below.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, when does Revan unleash Force Lightning that engulfs a persons whole body? Not that it matters as Bane can draw the bolts into his lightsaber, which is how blocking with one works. Did you think the bolts just happened to only hit the blade?
What do you think FLS does? And it is not possible to contain FLS with a single Lightsaber.

I know that game mechanics are not canon but in SWTOR, Revan's powers are very impressive and only means of defense is to evade them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In ROT he is struck by multiple Force pikes which shocked him with over a million volts. The orbalisks absorbed all of it.
So now we have a measurement of volts?

A typical lightning bolt contains 1 billion volts. Hmm.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They are completely different techniques on completely different sides of the Force.
Revan's understanding of the Force is not limited to techniques preferred by Jedi.

Those who know how to absorb and deflect Force Lightning; also know how to unleash the same power. Yoda did so against Dooku as an example.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Eminence
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/28154643.jpg
My intention is not to blow anything out of proportion.

I admit that I do not know if durasteel is supposed to be lightweight material or not. The author did not offered any concrete measure of the weight and size of the two doors in question here.

We are left with hints instead:

1- Both doors are enormous in size, heavy and made of durasteel.
2- The Imperial Guard individuals stationed inside the Citadel can draw on the power of the Sith Emperor to aid their actions and/or help themselves.

However, the most important aspect of the feat performed by Revan is that he did not intended to rip these doors apart from their foundations. Revan was being very calculative about how much power he wished to exert on these doors to force them open. Reason is that Revan's plan involved 'resealing of these doors' once he and his allies would be inside the throne room. Purpose was to prevent potential reinforcements from getting inside the throne room to assist the Sith Emperor.

Therefore, this feat is not at all intended to be a measure of power on part of Revan but rather how much self-control he had.

No matter how dire circumstances may become, the Jedi Knight trusts the Force and keeps a cool head. Knowledge and self-control are the critical components of wise decisions, and emotional and mental clarity are an absolute necessity. Maintaining focus allows the Knight to rely on intuition; a right mind leads to right action. (SWTOR: Jedi Knight Profile)

Nephthys
http://global3.memecdn.com/tl-dr_o_795907.gif

Ascendancy
Lot of typing, but your discussion of a completely unrelated battle does nothing to speak to Bane's prowess. As to the lighting, there hasn't been a single account that I've read where anyone wielding it has thrown up a shield while doing so. He was caught off-guard due to his own arrogance by thinking a downed foe was a non-threat. To assume he would do the same when going one-on-one with Revan is ridiculous.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Lot of typing, but your discussion of a completely unrelated battle does nothing to speak to Bane's prowess. As to the lighting, there hasn't been a single account that I've read where anyone wielding it has thrown up a shield while doing so. He was caught off-guard due to his own arrogance by thinking a downed foe was a non-threat. To assume he would do the same when going one-on-one with Revan is ridiculous.
One of the most insignificant counterarguments I have witnessed in this forum. It seems to me that such level of analysis is beyond your grasp.

Nephthys
I guess I better respond to your verbal flood. This will be fun.

Nephthys
Started writing and then the cat deleted 10,000 words.

**** it. Legend, you are wrong. Just saying that Revan has great mastery of the Force does not mean that he has great mastery in all areas. Unless he actually demonstrates ability with Force Speed it would be retarded to say that he can match Darths Sidious or Bane in its use.

Kas'im blocking Banes attacks only proves that Kas'im is very strong. It demonstrates nothing to do with any other Force user and only the stupid would say otherwise. A few chapters after that Bane casually rips through a 'trained Force-wielders' defenses and crushes them with the Force. The idea that anyone with Force defenses can block Force attacks of any degree of power is laughable.

I have no idea what they point of that lengthy and rambling comparison of Bane and Nyriss is supposed to accomplish other than making me sneer in utter contempt. If you want to make a thread between them, do so. I will relish crushing you.

There is no evidence for Revan being a duelist on par with Bane at all. No evidence that his understanding of the Force extends into lightsaber combat to the degree that it does in, say, his ability with Tutaminis. Force Users are skilled in different aspects of the Force. Demonstrating proficiency in one aspect proves nothing about their proficiency in other aspects. Raskta Lsu was weak in the Force yet her incredible martial prowess meant that she was the greatest duelist of the age. The concept that Bane is outgunned by Revan despite Revan having absolutely zero evidence of superior lightsaber skills isn't even worth considering.

The fact that Revan has meager showings with TK is not a defense, it is his failing. Until he demonstrates notable ability in that aspect it would be the height of foolishness to just assume that he possesses it.

They were technobeasts that he was fighting. Some of them creatures like Rancors. What does it matter, they were made out of metal and he disintegrated them. End of story.

The rest isn't even worthy of comment.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
Started writing and then the cat deleted 10,000 words.

**** it.
Nice cat. Saved my time and effort.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Legend, you are wrong. Just saying that Revan has great mastery of the Force does not mean that he has great mastery in all areas.
Revan's understanding of the Force is praised in general sense in the novel; their is no hint of specialization or anything.

Example 1:

His advanced techniques, combined with his ability to draw upon the dark side, allowed him to quickly dominate weak minds. Strong-willed subjects were more of a challenge, yet in the end he always got results. Until now.

Interrogating the Jedi had resulted in nothing but frustration and dead ends. His will was strong, as was his command of the Force.

Hint: Revan was strong willed and his command of the Force was also great.

Example 2:

She still wasn't sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan's doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be. Even though he was a prisoner it wasn't hard to imagine him being in total control of the situation.

Hint: Revan's command of the Force was superior to that of everybody else's whom Meetra Surik met. (Want me to go through her history for you now?)

Example 3:

Scourge expected them to search him, or at least instruct him to turn over his weapons. But Yarri and the others simply stood at attention, waiting for him to enter. The fact that they showed no concern over letting an armed Sith Lord speak to the Emperor face-to-face without any kind of preparation was a testament to the Emperor's unfathomable power.

Thinking about that power gave Scourge pause. Like Revan, the Emperor understood the Force in ways Scourge never would.

Need I say more? I think that you haven't read the novel properly. You probably just skimmed through it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unless he actually demonstrates ability with Force Speed it would be retarded to say that he can match Darths Sidious or Bane in its use.
So words like 'blur' should satisfy you? Seriously, this is childish approach to debating.

Drew Karpyshyn have made it clear in his novels that speed and precognitive abilities are associated with command of the Force. It is obvious that the author wrote Revan's novel for mature audience who fully understands his mindset from his previous novels.

The manner in which Revan outguns a highly martial opponent is indicative of the fact that his speed and precognitive abilities are extraordinary. He successfully dodged a freaking lightwhip strike with his acrobatic maneuver:

One of the guards battling Meetra broke off and tried to cut Revan off. The Jedi gathered himself and leapt high in the air, tucking his knees in tight to somersault over his opponent. The guard reacted to the unexpected move a fraction too slowly, his electrostaff slicing through the air above his head and missing Revan by only a few centimeters.

It is obvious from this sentence;

Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons

-that the dueling actions between the Imperial Guard and Revan and his allies are too fast for normal human senses to grasp them.

In addition, Revan had fought in the Star Forge before and was the star of that battle. Do you think that an sucky individual in terms of speed and precognition would be able to pull off such a feat? Did Revan had unlimited time or something? He had to reach Bastilla Shan's position as fast as possible so that he could help turn the tide of the war; otherwise, Sith were in better position to win.

When you discuss Revan, logic and common sense applies.

Get the memo now?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kas'im blocking Banes attacks only proves that Kas'im is very strong.
Stronger then Revan? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Nephthys
It demonstrates nothing to do with any other Force user and only the stupid would say otherwise. A few chapters after that Bane casually rips through a 'trained Force-wielders' defenses and crushes them with the Force. The idea that anyone with Force defenses can block Force attacks of any degree of power is laughable.
You need to go back to the drawing board. Start reading Darth Bane: Path Of Destruction novel again. It offers in-depth explanation of the science behind martial development of a Force-wielder. Maybe, you need such writing for Revan to make you understand that how good he is.

Or why not just email Drew and let us know his answer? Easier way out? Instead of wasting time with inadequate counterarguments; do something beneficial.

Also, do you seriously think that these 'trained Force-wielders' hold a candle to someone as powerful and skilled as Lord Scourge; let alone Revan?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I have no idea what they point of that lengthy and rambling comparison of Bane and Nyriss is supposed to accomplish other than making me sneer in utter contempt. If you want to make a thread between them, do so. I will relish crushing you.
Two duels are related to each other, nature wise. And your failure to understand the comparison only reveals your limitation in understanding an in-depth analysis of skills and strategies of the characters in question. Your reliance on superficial outcomes would result in another failure from you.

OMG! Bane destroyed a Temple? He must be a God? In reality, he failed to do anything to someone weaker in the Force then him in a duel.

A word of caution: start thinking beyond superficial aspects of duels.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There is no evidence for Revan being a duelist on par with Bane at all. No evidence that his understanding of the Force extends into lightsaber combat to the degree that it does in, say, his ability with Tutaminis. Force Users are skilled in different aspects of the Force. Demonstrating proficiency in one aspect proves nothing about their proficiency in other aspects. Raskta Lsu was weak in the Force yet her incredible martial prowess meant that she was the greatest duelist of the age. The concept that Bane is outgunned by Revan despite Revan having absolutely zero evidence of superior lightsaber skills isn't even worth considering.
Evidence exists. Your failure to understand it is the issue here. I have attempted to explain to you the evidence but it escapes you. Your reading strategy is flawed. Go through my explanation as a whole and not just point to point wise. Try to grasp the crux.

Raskta Lsu might be the greatest duelist in her age; but not necessarily in history. And Bane's reckless strategy allows her to many land blows on him. Such a genius.

Also, have you read this:

Had the Jedi enjoyed the same advantages Bane's orbalisk armor provided, their encounter would have ended long ago. Bane could shrug off otherwise lethal blows, forgoing all sense of personal safety in a reckless assault of pure offense to overwhelm her defenses.

Bane's strategy was flawed in this encounter. He was not being calculative. Funny thing is that even with orbalisks, Bane lost in the end again and to a relatively much weaker foe; Worror.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The fact that Revan has meager showings with TK is not a defense, it is his failing. Until he demonstrates notable ability in that aspect it would be the height of foolishness to just assume that he possesses it.
Genius, Revan's intentions matter. His feats represent his intent. Go through my previous responses again to ascertain this.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They were technobeasts that he was fighting. Some of them creatures like Rancors. What does it matter, they were made out of metal and he disintegrated them. End of story.
So technobeasts now compare to powerful Force-wielders? Another superficial feat that you cling to.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The rest isn't even worthy of comment.
Probably beyond your grasp.

Nephthys
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan's understanding of the Force is praised in general sense in the novel; their is no hint of specialization or anything.

So what? Just because he has no mention of specialization does not mean that he is strong in lightsaber combat. There is no evidence that he is. Dooku is praised for being strong in the Force and the darkside. This does not mean that he's equally skilled in all its aspects, such as telepathy or sith sorcery for example.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Example 1:

His advanced techniques, combined with his ability to draw upon the dark side, allowed him to quickly dominate weak minds. Strong-willed subjects were more of a challenge, yet in the end he always got results. Until now.

Interrogating the Jedi had resulted in nothing but frustration and dead ends. His will was strong, as was his command of the Force.

Hint: Revan was strong willed and his command of the Force was also great.

Again, how does this translate into lightsaber prowess?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Example 2:

She still wasn't sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan's doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be. Even though he was a prisoner it wasn't hard to imagine him being in total control of the situation.

Hint: Revan's command of the Force was superior to that of everybody else's whom Meetra Surik met. (Want me to go through her history for you now?)

The person with the greatest command of the Force Meetra met was Kreia, who is only notable for her drain. Either way, its her opinion and is subject to being wrong.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Example 3:

Scourge expected them to search him, or at least instruct him to turn over his weapons. But Yarri and the others simply stood at attention, waiting for him to enter. The fact that they showed no concern over letting an armed Sith Lord speak to the Emperor face-to-face without any kind of preparation was a testament to the Emperor's unfathomable power.

Thinking about that power gave Scourge pause. Like Revan, the Emperor understood the Force in ways Scourge never would.

Need I say more? I think that you haven't read the novel properly. You probably just skimmed through it.

OMFG! This PROVES that Revan is the ****ing Flash because........

:?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So words like 'blur' should satisfy you? Seriously, this is childish approach to debating.

You utter trash, I have specifically talked to you about this and expressed that words like 'blur' do not satisfy me:

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, because the term 'blur' as you said indicates an ambiguous amount of speed, not a fixed speed. It may even count as hyperbole. We don't typically even consider things such as that in these forum debates. What we do do (hehehe) is examine factual occurances. Sidious was able to outspeed 3 Jedi Masters, at least one of which can deal with Grievous who is fast enough to seem to teleport distances in terms of raw speed. That is an incredible amount of swiftness. No matter how much you honk your horn about Revan beating an Imperial Guard, or any amount of fanciful phrases he may or may not have to his name, Revan does not have anything that can hope to compete with that.

In a duel, Sidious would be able to outspeed and outfight Revan because of this.

Learn to read English or go back to debating in your own language.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Drew Karpyshyn have made it clear in his novels that speed and precognitive abilities are associated with command of the Force. It is obvious that the author wrote Revan's novel for mature audience who fully understands his mindset from his previous novels.

It is only through intense study and training that one can become more proficient at using the Force. Raskta Lsu was weak in the Force yet was incredibly fast because of her intense training in lightsaber combat and that she was so proficient in amping herself with the Force. There is no evidence that Revan was skilled in the use of Force Speed. Besides which you need evidence to support a claim. You have nothing to support the idea that Revan is that great a duelist or that he can match Bane or Sidious' speed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The manner in which Revan outguns a highly martial opponent is indicative of the fact that his speed and precognitive abilities are extraordinary. He successfully dodged a freaking lightwhip strike with his acrobatic maneuver:

One of the guards battling Meetra broke off and tried to cut Revan off. The Jedi gathered himself and leapt high in the air, tucking his knees in tight to somersault over his opponent. The guard reacted to the unexpected move a fraction too slowly, his electrostaff slicing through the air above his head and missing Revan by only a few centimeters.

Oh my god, will you shut up about Revan beating a ****ing non-force sensitive. It is not impressive in the slightest. No matter how many times you bring that up to me I will never be impressed by it.

OMG he dodged a lightwhip strike!? Yawn. It wasn't even a lightwhip genius. The text clearly says that Revan dodges an 'electrotaff'. Either way, who cares about the weapon, neither is faster than the other. Bane moves so fast that it appears like he's wielding a dozen blades at once. He can move so fast that other Force users couldn't even see him move. Revan is nothing to Bane.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is obvious from this sentence;

Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons

-that the dueling actions between the Imperial Guard and Revan and his allies are too fast for normal human senses to grasp them.

Lol. No, it says 'ordinary soldiers.' All that indicates is that Revan is above an ordinary soldier. I'm really freaking impressed. However will Bane defeat him now? And it doesn't say that they couldn't sense them, it says before they could draw their weapon. Which not many people could do if someone slashes at them and their weapon is still in its holster.

Considering that Lord Kopecz was able to slaughter an entire platoon of the Republics best soldiers before they could fire more than once, the same Kopecz that was defeated in a duel by Farfalla, the same Farfalla that Bane was able to force back even with Raskta and Johun helping him, this is not impressive in the slightest.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In addition, Revan had fought in the Star Forge before and was the star of that battle. Do you think that an sucky individual in terms of speed and precognition would be able to pull off such a feat? Did Revan had unlimited time or something? He had to reach Bastilla Shan's position as fast as possible so that he could help turn the tide of the war; otherwise, Sith were in better position to win.

When you discuss Revan, logic and common sense applies.

Get the memo now?

Who cares. He had help from his companions. The Exile fought through an entire Sith temple by herself and nothing indicates impressive speed from her.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Stronger then Revan? roll eyes (sarcastic)

In defending from TK perhaps.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You need to go back to the drawing board. Start reading Darth Bane: Path Of Destruction novel again. It offers in-depth explanation of the science behind martial development of a Force-wielder. Maybe, you need such writing for Revan to make you understand that how good he is.

Or why not just email Drew and let us know his answer? Easier way out? Instead of wasting time with inadequate counterarguments; do something beneficial.

Also, do you seriously think that these 'trained Force-wielders' hold a candle to someone as powerful and skilled as Lord Scourge; let alone Revan?

How about no. Drew's personal opinions are not canon plus he's a bit dim in the first place. I don't care about what he says.

No I do not. Thats my point. You were arguing that the defenses of a 'trained Force-wielder' were being underestimated and could block Banes attacks. As I showed this is bullshit because Bane shreds through the defenses of even Sith Masters with ease.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Two duels are related to each other, nature wise. And your failure to understand the comparison only reveals your limitation in understanding an in-depth analysis of skills and strategies of the characters in question. Your reliance on superficial outcomes would result in another failure from you.

Probably because your rambling, incoherent pile of shit was so stupid that I couldn't grasp what the hell you were going on about.

Nephthys
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
OMG! Bane destroyed a Temple? He must be a God?

This is hilarious coming from you and your history of pathetic arguments. Look at this picture, Revan killed two people in a single slash! HE MUST BE A LIGHTSABER PRODIGY! REVANS LIGHTNING CANNOT BE BLOCKED! FVCK YOU LOGIC! Revan has the speed to deal with Bane! BECAUSE HE DOES ALRIGHT! I DON'T NEED ANY DAMN PROOF! Revan had 'experienced both the light and dark sides of the Force' THEREFORE BANE IS HOPELESSLY OUTGUNNED IN A LIGHTSABER FIGHT! Seriously, the only thing of worth in your posts are in how utterly hilarious your arguments are.

As I said, Bane destroying an entire temple is leagues ahead of whatever Revan has done with TK. Even if Revan could block Banes attacks, since he is so much weaker in TK than Bane it would exhaust him to do so. It is only logical that when one is stronger than his opponent, he can overpower him, regardless of resistence.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In reality, he failed to do anything to someone weaker in the Force then him in a duel.

Except when he killed him. erm

Again, Kas'im blocking Banes attacks only prove that Kas'im was strong, not that Bane was weak.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A word of caution: start thinking beyond superficial aspects of duels.

A word of caution: Start thinking.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Evidence exists. Your failure to understand it is the issue here. I have attempted to explain to you the evidence but it escapes you. Your reading strategy is flawed. Go through my explanation as a whole and not just point to point wise. Try to grasp the crux.

Considering that you completely miss the point of why I mentioned Raskta in your following paragraphs, this is hilarious. Never change Legend.

Your arguments for the evidence you have is terrible btw.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Raskta Lsu might be the greatest duelist in her age; but not necessarily in history. And Bane's reckless strategy allows her to many land blows on him. Such a genius.

Also, have you read this:

Had the Jedi enjoyed the same advantages Bane's orbalisk armor provided, their encounter would have ended long ago. Bane could shrug off otherwise lethal blows, forgoing all sense of personal safety in a reckless assault of pure offense to overwhelm her defenses.

Bane's strategy was flawed in this encounter. He was not being calculative. Funny thing is that even with orbalisks, Bane lost in the end again and to a relatively much weaker foe; Worror.

You missed my point, brains.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Genius, Revan's intentions matter. His feats represent his intent. Go through my previous responses again to ascertain this.

No they do not you twit. Merely because Revan wasn't going all out does not excuse his weak showings. Unless there is evidence of strong TK, is it impossible to assume it.

Also, nothing you've posted mentions what Revans intentions are. You are just assuming that you know them. As usual you fanwank defenses for your favourite characters when they fail to measure up.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So technobeasts now compare to powerful Force-wielders? Another superficial feat that you cling to.

Did I say that they did? All I've said is that Bane has disintegrated over a dozen metal opponents with a mere thrust of his hand. This is a telekinestic feat beyond anything Revan has performed a dozen times over. When Revans best feat is opening a door that 2 people can open though, that isn't too hard.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Probably beyond your grasp.

Whats beyond my grasp is how you can delude yourself into thinking that you are anything but a punchline to me. Maybe if you put EXPERT in big capital letters a few more time I'll be convinced.

S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol. No, it says 'ordinary soldiers.' All that indicates is that Revan is above an ordinary soldier. I'm really freaking impressed.
You missed this part:

"before they could even draw their weapons"

However, it has been proven earlier that Revan's reaction-rate is perfect.

Originally posted by Nephthys
However will Bane defeat him now? And it doesn't say that they couldn't sense them, it says before they could draw their weapon. Which not many people could do if someone slashes at them and their weapon is still in its holster.
Revan's confrontation with Mandalorians on Rekkiad affirms that his reaction-rate is perfect for even battle ready (skilled) soldiers, let alone ordinary soldiers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Considering that Lord Kopecz was able to slaughter an entire platoon of the Republics best soldiers before they could fire more than once, the same Kopecz that was defeated in a duel by Farfalla, the same Farfalla that Bane was able to force back even with Raskta and Johun helping him, this is not impressive in the slightest.
Big deal; Revan slaughtered an entire army on Star Forge.

Bane actually perceives Revan as a champion of the dark side:

Bane wasn't surprised that Kas'im didn't recognize the quote. The words had been written by Darth Revan nearly three millennia earlier. The Masters were as lax as the students when it came to studying the ancient writings. It seemed the Academy had turned its back on the past champions of the dark side. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who cares. He had help from his companions. The Exile fought through an entire Sith temple by herself and nothing indicates impressive speed from her.
According to the author; only two helped him and they may have helped in different manner then you expect. Sith commander stationed on the Star Forge actually credited Revan for destroying Sith Forces stationed on the Star Forge. And any kind of help that Revan got, ended at Bastilla Shan.

As far as Meetra is concerned, just because the author chose to not describe her speed; doesn't means that she is slow. Combat performance wise, she matched Scourge (who is very fast as indicated earlier).

Originally posted by Nephthys
In defending from TK perhaps.
Only in your mind. I know that you will cling to any level of desparation to overrate your favorite character. Bane thinks much highly of Revan.

Revan managed to blunt the impact of Force push from Vitiate. Do the math.

"Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed."

Originally posted by Nephthys
How about no. Drew's personal opinions are not canon plus he's a bit dim in the first place. I don't care about what he says.
He is an author of Star Wars lore. Enough said.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No I do not. Thats my point. You were arguing that the defenses of a 'trained Force-wielder' were being underestimated and could block Banes attacks. As I showed this is bullshit because Bane shreds through the defenses of even Sith Masters with ease.
Obviously, he will dominate weaklings.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Probably because your rambling, incoherent pile of shit was so stupid that I couldn't grasp what the hell you were going on about.
You are spewing incoherent pile of shit here; filled with lot of misconceptions.

Pwned
Originally posted by Nephthys
This is hilarious coming from you and your history of pathetic arguments. Look at this picture, Revan killed two people in a single slash! HE MUST BE A LIGHTSABER PRODIGY! REVANS LIGHTNING CANNOT BE BLOCKED! FVCK YOU LOGIC! Revan has the speed to deal with Bane! BECAUSE HE DOES ALRIGHT! I DON'T NEED ANY DAMN PROOF! Revan had 'experienced both the light and dark sides of the Force' THEREFORE BANE IS HOPELESSLY OUTGUNNED IN A LIGHTSABER FIGHT! Seriously, the only thing of worth in your posts are in how utterly hilarious your arguments are.. Neph, have you been having a bad day? I can help, I have a proven psychologist in my pants.

Nephthys
I'm not sure if you're going to respond to the rest of my post Legend so I'll wait until I reply to the above.

Edit: Not so above now, whoops. erm

Arhael
forums.watchuseek.com/attachments/f74/404734d1300156375-wenger-batallion-iii-72326-mens-divers-watch-quality-performance-movement-information-662814-simpsons_homer_eating_popcorn_large.jpg

NewGuy01
Uh oh, I can tell this is going to be a battle between the ridiculous amount Bane and Revan fanboys/girls out there.

I'm going to put my personal bets on Bane.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
This is hilarious coming from you and your history of pathetic arguments. Look at this picture, Revan killed two people in a single slash! HE MUST BE A LIGHTSABER PRODIGY! REVANS LIGHTNING CANNOT BE BLOCKED! FVCK YOU LOGIC! Revan has the speed to deal with Bane! BECAUSE HE DOES ALRIGHT! I DON'T NEED ANY DAMN PROOF! Revan had 'experienced both the light and dark sides of the Force' THEREFORE BANE IS HOPELESSLY OUTGUNNED IN A LIGHTSABER FIGHT! Seriously, the only thing of worth in your posts are in how utterly hilarious your arguments are.
Ease up, bro.

A lightsaber fight?

I have stated this before:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Summary:

Sabers: Inconclusive
Force: Revan
All out: Revan 80/20 (Bane's chances are only with the saber)

This is as generous as I can get after being fully neutral about this duel.

------

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I said, Bane destroying an entire temple is leagues ahead of whatever Revan has done with TK.
From Drew Karpyshyn;

"And, if the situation was right he might be able to collapse a building; it would really depend on his state of mind and the circumstances."

As I have pointed out before in another discussion, we have yet to see the best from Revan in the context of his telekinetic abilities.

Revan's feats in the book represent his self-control rather then destructive potential.

Darth Bane, as a Sith Lord, put his destructive potential to good use. This was in his nature. However, Jedi typically don't fight in this manner:

No matter how dire circumstances may become, the Jedi Knight trusts the Force and keeps a cool head. Knowledge and self-control are the critical components of wise decisions, and emotional and mental clarity are an absolute necessity. Maintaining focus allows the Knight to rely on intuition; a right mind leads to right action. (SWTOR: Jedi Knight Profile)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even if Revan could block Banes attacks, since he is so much weaker in TK than Bane it would exhaust him to do so. It is only logical that when one is stronger than his opponent, he can overpower him, regardless of resistence.
No. Revan blunted the impact of Force push from Vitiate who is also a TK prodigy and Revan wasn't exhausted by such an effort at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except when he killed him. erm
The power unleashed by him itself didn't; the structural collapse did the job instead.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, Kas'im blocking Banes attacks only prove that Kas'im was strong, not that Bane was weak.
Yes, Kas'im was powerful.

However, for Revan;

"He was an incredibly powerful Jedi." (Drew Karpyshyn)

Bane's attack wasn't potent enough to destroy a powerful Force-wielder. Revan is actually a tier above in this aspect since he effortlessely handled an attack with his raw power which was actually potent enough to destroy a powerful Force-wielder.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A word of caution: Start thinking.
I have done so thoroughly; specially in this thread and it broadened my perspective.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Considering that you completely miss the point of why I mentioned Raskta in your following paragraphs, this is hilarious. Never change Legend.

Your arguments for the evidence you have is terrible btw.

You missed my point, brains.
You are talking about lightsaber combat? See above.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No they do not you twit. Merely because Revan wasn't going all out does not excuse his weak showings. Unless there is evidence of strong TK, is it impossible to assume it.
Revan's showings are not weak but rather misunderstood.

If people were expecting Revan to collapse buildings to prove his strength; well, he isn't a Sith Lord but rather very calculative about his actions. This is how he have been depicted in the book.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, nothing you've posted mentions what Revans intentions are. You are just assuming that you know them. As usual you fanwank defenses for your favourite characters when they fail to measure up.
No. I have proved my point with evidence. I have even brought the author's point of view on the table which strengthens my stand in this debate.

Revan never failed to meaure up; it is just that some people want to judge characters only on the basis of their flashy feats and not on the basis of their other relevant details.

I know that this may sound strange to you but I will quote The_Tempest here:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I already acknowledged the extraordinary difficulty in trying to navigate that, but let's be honest: it's not like that sort of thing hasn't been going on for ages now.

Starkiller and The Force Unleashed is a prime example of that. We see Vader labor around like a geriatric against geriatrics in the original trilogy, but here he's collapsing buildings, throwing big ass platforms like frisbees, and generally being a badass to an exponentially greater degree. Starkiller drags capital ships out of orbit, flexes his arms and disintegrates them entirely, and so on.

Feat-to-feat, he'd waste Bane... but no one likes to say that.

Star Wars: The Clone Wars mortally injured the notion that "lol Obi-Wan is teh 4th best Jedi in the PT!" by seeding the series with rivals who, despite their paltry exposure, compete with him on some level.

------

Keeping in mind, Bane's strength in the Force; I don't think that Marek is going to waste him in a contest of Force powers regardless of the flashy feats of the latter. This kind of thinking is not sound IMO.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Did I say that they did? All I've said is that Bane has disintegrated over a dozen metal opponents with a mere thrust of his hand. This is a telekinestic feat beyond anything Revan has performed a dozen times over. When Revans best feat is opening a door that 2 people can open though, that isn't too hard.
Watch this video:

dtg69JrWGQg

Does this footage teaches you something?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Whats beyond my grasp is how you can delude yourself into thinking that you are anything but a punchline to me. Maybe if you put EXPERT in big capital letters a few more time I'll be convinced.
Bro, I intend to get past these kinds of exchanges. If I came on you strongly in my previous responses, I apologize for it.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
Who cares? He can't win with his mediocre saber feats and lack of offensive Force powers. Bane wins 9/10 with the 1 time Revan wins being when he reflects Banes own lightning at him and Bane can't block it in time for some reason.

OP says its peak Revan though.

Lack of offensive force powers? The power to put one of the most powerful Sith lords in history on his ass is not a lack of offensive powers. His saber feats do suck though.

Ascendancy
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD





Watch this video:

dtg69JrWGQg

Does this footage teaches you something?




I'm curious as to why you're showing a video of Marek to aid in an argument for the power of Revan. I read the rest of your post and it really doesn't fit at all.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Ascendancy
I'm curious as to why you're showing a video of Marek to aid in an argument for the power of Revan.
The purpose of this footage is to demonstrate that powers which might be potent enough to disintegrate individuals (who are defenceless against the Force) are not necessarily going to disintegrate powerful Force-wielders. Confrontation between Darth Bane and Lord Kas'im also strengthen this point.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I read the rest of your post and it really doesn't fit at all.
You need an open mind to understand what I am trying to convey in this thread. The "Bane pawns all" mentality isn't going to help.

Different characters have been explored in different mediums in different manner. It is not like we have a "check list" of capabilities of each and every individual in Star Wars to take cues from; we need to think logically sometimes.

Revan possesses great understanding of all aspects of the Force; he didn't followed the path of specialists but rather learned whatever he could.

If we consider specialists; Lord Scourge; Anakin; Obi-Wan are some examples. These guys specially focused on developing their martial skills with a lightsaber and became warriors.

If we consider generalists; Yoda; Revan; Luke; Sidious are some examples. These guys focused on developing their skills in all aspects of the Force. This path requires lot of talent and study; few can manage this.

Ascendancy
It was rather unfortunate, however, that when we saw Revan actually fleshed out he fell rather short of being all he was hyped to be. His knowledge may have been great, but it didn't translate very well in the end. Jacen had much arcane knowledge, yet fell well short of being a top Jedi or Sith because of his own inadequacies.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Ascendancy
It was rather unfortunate, however, that when we saw Revan actually fleshed out he fell rather short of being all he was hyped to be. His knowledge may have been great, but it didn't translate very well in the end.
Bro, read Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia (I got my copy today. wink ) and you may understand that how much of a bad@ss Revan actually was. Performance against powerful opponents is all that matters; other details are just to impress the audience.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Jacen had much arcane knowledge, yet fell well short of being a top Jedi or Sith because of his own inadequacies.
Jacen gave Luke one hell of a fight though.

NewGuy01
Bane.

Ascendancy
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


Jacen gave Luke one hell of a fight though.

Indeed, but a major part of surviving as long as he did was one, having Ben in the mix, and two, having all those Vong plants and devices at hand to cause Luke distractions. The omniscient narrator reveals throughout the book series that Jacen/Caedus knows he is not a match for Luke. He keeps training and waiting on the day that he will be able to best his uncle, but it never arrives.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Ascendancy
The omniscient narrator

There isn't one of those in the Legacy of the Force. Doesn't matter, though, since between you, Neph, Eminence, and the god of war, a nigh-invulnerable case for Luke's noticeable superiority over Jacen exists.

Nephthys
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bro, I intend to get past these kinds of exchanges. If I came on you strongly in my previous responses, I apologize for it.

No, you have nothing to apologise for. I allowed my frustrations to get the best of me and took it out on you. I apologise sincerely.

Rookwood
Such humility.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, you have nothing to apologise for. I allowed my frustrations to get the best of me and took it out on you. I apologise sincerely.
Thanks, bro. smile

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Rookwood
Such humility.

I know, right? It's like watching Jesus debate SW shit.

Nephthys
I'm not being humble, I'm honestly ashamed of how I acted. I knowingly and viciously insulted Legend for no reason other than for catharsis.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not being humble, I'm honestly ashamed of how I acted. I knowingly and viciously insulted Legend for no reason other than for catharsis.

And I'm just joking. You're not like Jesus at all.

The_Tempest
He's not nearly as nice to me, tbh. I'll remember this, b1tch. uhuh

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