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Someone at work said his favorite Trek series was DS9. I told him I just could not get into it and only watched about two episodes as a kid. He then guffawed at me and said that there was no way I could claim to be a Trekkie and not have seen all of DS9. He dared me to watch it again and tell him I didn't like it. I have been and I did like it.

Sometimes, it is some of the best the Star Trek universe has to offer. Sometimes, it seems very lame. I probably saw two lame episodes. Overall, it is a good Trek.

I am at episode 13, season 6. If anyone has seen this one, you'll know what I was talking about. I did not even think about Benjamin Sisko being a black man until this episode. This episode was nicely written even if it was a bit on the humorous side. Maybe I had forgotten about this American past? I dunno, but it kind of hit me a bit harder than other episodes. Maybe it was because I did not see Sisko's character as ever being black but just an awesome commander/captain. That is probably what the writers were going for. Anyway, the episode is better watched after having watched all the prior episodes, first: I just don't see the impact of the episode working any better.


Bleh, maybe you older Trekkies didn't get blind-sided like I did. Oh well.

DS9 is my favourite Star Trek series also (and pretty much my favourite television series full stop), so yeah, I know what episode you're talking about.

While I don't believe it's the best of the series (In the Pale Moonlight has that honour for me, and its episode 6x19), it is a very good episode. It's one of the episodes that really showed us that Sisko is, even without the whole racial aspect, going to be made to pay by the Prophets, as their arrangement goes both ways.

My favourite parts, personally, were seeing everyone interact with no makeup on, though I'm sure that's not the scene(s) you're talking about lol

I rarely watched DS9 because my favorite "character" -- the Enterprise -- wasn't in it. The smaller, more conventionally designed Defiant didn't do it for me.

But in all fairness...

The only Trek I really loved was the original series. The freshness of it, the intelligent writing and story twists, the camp and Classic Triad of Kirk-Spock-McCoy. Even ST:TNG I consider a distant second. If it weren't for Picard and *sigh* Troi, I wouldn't have watched as much as I did -- though again, in all fairness, TNG also had some excellent stories (and of course TOS had its share of bad ones).

But both those series had what I loved most: the speed and power of the USS Enterprise. I gave DS9 a shot, but for me, a space station was like the very antithesis of what Star Trek was about: going out there, and exploring, and doing it in a huge Starship, spreading the word of friendship, and kickin' ass when "play nice" just won't do.

The crew of DS9 kicked more ass than some of the other shows combined

Originally posted by -Pr-
DS9 is my favourite Star Trek series also (and pretty much my favourite television series full stop), so yeah, I know what episode you're talking about.

While I don't believe it's the best of the series (In the Pale Moonlight has that honour for me, and its episode 6x19), it is a very good episode. It's one of the episodes that really showed us that Sisko is, even without the whole racial aspect, going to be made to pay by the Prophets, as their arrangement goes both ways.

My favourite parts, personally, were seeing everyone interact with no makeup on, though I'm sure that's not the scene(s) you're talking about lol

Yeah, you definitely know more about this show than I do. But I have not seen 19 yet so I am nervous to see what happens. I hear that Earth is attacked and San Fran turned into rubble...is that what you're talking about? If so, it is not so bad. If his son dies, however, SO HELP ME!

Anyway, yeah, I really really enjoyed getting to see all the characters with their makeup off. That was probably my second favorite part of that episode.

Originally posted by Mindship
I rarely watched DS9 because my favorite "character" -- the Enterprise -- wasn't in it. The smaller, more conventionally designed Defiant didn't do it for me.

But in all fairness...

The only Trek I really loved was the original series. The freshness of it, the intelligent writing and story twists, the camp and Classic Triad of Kirk-Spock-McCoy. Even ST:TNG I consider a distant second. If it weren't for Picard and *sigh* Troi, I wouldn't have watched as much as I did -- though again, in all fairness, TNG also had some excellent stories (and of course TOS had its share of bad ones).

But both those series had what I loved most: the speed and power of the USS Enterprise. I gave DS9 a shot, but for me, a space station was like the very antithesis of what Star Trek was about: going out there, and exploring, and doing it in a huge Starship, spreading the word of friendship, and kickin' ass when "play nice" just won't do.

That was also my same argument: where is the 'trekking' from a spacestation? Well, there is some exploration and some very TNG-like episodes, at times. And Dax is definitely the hottest Star Trek babe, yet. Uhura was certainly smokin' but I think Dax takes the cake.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, you definitely know more about this show than I do. But I have not seen 19 yet so I am nervous to see what happens. I hear that Earth is attacked and San Fran turned into rubble...is that what you're talking about? If so, it is not so bad. If his son dies, however, SO HELP ME!

Anyway, yeah, I really really enjoyed getting to see all the characters with their makeup off. That was probably my second favorite part of that episode.



That was also my same argument: where is the 'trekking' from a spacestation? Well, there is some exploration and some very TNG-like episodes, at times. And Dax is definitely the hottest Star Trek babe, yet. Uhura was certainly smokin' but I think Dax takes the cake.

lol no, the SanFran thing is later on. Season 7 is more of an arc than season 6 was, and it's excellent imo.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And Dax is definitely the hottest Star Trek babe, yet. Uhura was certainly smokin' but I think Dax takes the cake. Uhuru was definitely smokin'. Though ST:TOS ran in the '60s, when Twiggy and (ugh) skinny became the fashion ideal, Uhuru was still rockin' those curves. No wonder TV's first interracial kiss featured her.

For second place -- and I am about to contradict myself most horribly -- I liked T'Pol. That Vulcan cool...very hot.

DS9 was a great show. Very intelligent and entertaining. Religion, Politics, War in the future. Whats's not to like.

Technically it was a lot less "Star Trek" than the other shows. It was something different set in the same Universe.

That's why it was so polarising; some thought that it wasn't "Trek" enough.

I disagree entirely. For me, the show gave the Trek universe a level of depth that it had been lacking. Not that it wasn't deep before; DS9 just took it much, much further.

Plus there's no point in making spin off's exactly the same. We already had the Original Series and Next Gen travelling to new parts of the Galaxy every episode.

That's why I was kind of bored with Voyager and Enterprise. Those shows didn't really add anything new and original to the Trek verse Imho. And many of the episodes felt like "we've been here before."

Originally posted by Mindship
Uhuru was definitely smokin'. Though ST:TOS ran in the '60s, when Twiggy and (ugh) skinny became the fashion ideal, Uhuru was still rockin' those curves. No wonder TV's first interracial kiss featured her.

For second place -- and I am about to contradict myself most horribly -- I liked T'Pol. That Vulcan cool...very hot.

I just started watching Enterprise. I will be flogged for saying this but it is the most enjoyable Star Trek series, yet. It may overtake TNG as my favorite Star Trek series. I was told by that same dude, from work, that Enterprise really falls off in seasons 2 and 3 and to not keep my hopes up. I hope he's wrong. So far, it is great. I love it.

So, I said all that to say this: T'Pol is quite hot. But those ugly-ass lips of hers that have been injected with that shit...and those fake boobs...just is not cutting it for me. I prefer small boobs over large fake ones.


Originally posted by -Pr-
That's why it was so polarising; some thought that it wasn't "Trek" enough.

I disagree entirely. For me, the show gave the Trek universe a level of depth that it had been lacking. Not that it wasn't deep before; DS9 just took it much, much further.

Yes, that was my complaint. It wasn't 'trek'. It was more of light-hearted relationships show. Most episodes revolve around the relationships between the characters. That seems like something odd to say because pretty much all fiction does. But this is different. Episodes focus, sometimes, entirely on Quark's relationship with his mother or Sisko's relationship with his boy (multiple episodes were like that). That is much different than other Trek series where the relationship stuff takes a back seat to overcoming a new alien life that is attacking the Enterprise and Kirk and co. have to figure out how to communicate with it and save themselves.



Basically, most episodes on DS9 were more like a snapshot of what it is like to live on a Space Station in the 24th Century of the Star Trek universe and spend a lot of time at a bar.


The best episodes of DS9 were the episodes that centered on the Star Trek universe and conflicts rather than the relationship episodes. You know...episodes that were Star Trek-like. The exceptions are few, of course. For example, the episode in this thread title: great stuff.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Plus there's no point in making spin off's exactly the same. We already had the Original Series and Next Gen travelling to new parts of the Galaxy every episode.


Then that is not Star Trek. Star Trek, as the name implies, is a trek through the stars. Staying in once place on a Deep Space Station is not a Star Trek. That is probably why I did not enjoy DS9 as much as other ST series.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's why I was kind of bored with Voyager and Enterprise. Those shows didn't really add anything new and original to the Trek verse Imho. And many of the episodes felt like "we've been here before."

Voyager was pretty much all new species and encounters with the exception of the Borg and Q (probably other obscure stuff like the human colonies, Klingon ship, etc). Enterprise seems to be focusing on the relationships established with all the various other species that Starfleet later has great relations with. I was wondering how The UFoP became "friends" with the nausicaans...cause they seemed like bitches in TNG. Anyway, there was nothing boring about Voyager and, so far, nothing boring about Enterprise.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, that was my complaint. It wasn't 'trek'. It was more of light-hearted relationships show. Most episodes revolve around the relationships between the characters. That seems like something odd to say because pretty much all fiction does. But this is different. Episodes focus, sometimes, entirely on Quark's relationship with his mother or Sisko's relationship with his boy (multiple episodes were like that). That is much different than other Trek series where the relationship stuff takes a back seat to overcoming a new alien life that is attacking the Enterprise and Kirk and co. have to figure out how to communicate with it and save themselves.



Basically, most episodes on DS9 were more like a snapshot of what it is like to live on a Space Station in the 24th Century of the Star Trek universe and spend a lot of time at a bar.


The best episodes of DS9 were the episodes that centered on the Star Trek universe and conflicts rather than the relationship episodes. You know...episodes that were Star Trek-like. The exceptions are few, of course. For example, the episode in this thread title: great stuff.

Honestly, while that was true of the earlier seasons, I don't agree that it was the same later on, especially once the war started.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I just started watching Enterprise. I will be flogged for saying this but it is the most enjoyable Star Trek series, yet.

Lol I'm sure the Enterprise excitement will wear off before you know it.



Originally posted by dadudemon
So, I said all that to say this: T'Pol is quite hot.

T'Pol is hot. And so was Hoshi.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But those ugly-ass lips of hers that have been injected with that shit...and those fake boobs...just is not cutting it for me. I prefer small boobs over large fake ones.

Your too fussy.




Originally posted by dadudemon


Then that is not Star Trek. Star Trek, as the name implies, is a trek through the stars. Staying in once place on a Deep Space Station is not a Star Trek. That is probably why I did not enjoy DS9 as much as other ST series.

I'd say it was "Less Trek" but you can't say it wasn't at all Trek. The series revolved around this wormhole and new part of the Galaxy they discovered in the first episode.

Sometimes they would discover new life on missions on a runabout or the Defiant. Then other times just being on the Station something or someone new would come through the wormhole or they would just initiate First Contact on the Station. (Being such an important outpost would just attract all sorts of species and threats from both sides of the Galaxy anyway).


But as the series went on they stopped focusing on discovering new species and concentrated more on the ongoing plot from the species already discovered (which actually lead to better stories anyway).





Besides which why does a spin off have to be "Trekking" anyway? Many people just love the Trek futuristic setting and just enjoyed different types of stories in the same Universe.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol I'm sure the Enterprise excitement will wear off before you know it.
I'm into the second season. Still just as good.





Originally posted by DARTH POWER
T'Pol is hot. And so was Hoshi.

Yes, Hoshi. She was awesome.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your too fussy.

Actually, I think I'm normal. Artificial appearances should not be a turn on. But I noticed that her lips went down as the show went on. She probably was told to tone it back.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'd say it was "Less Trek" but you can't say it wasn't at all Trek. The series revolved around this wormhole and new part of the Galaxy they discovered in the first episode.

There were a few exploration episodes that definitely felt like Trek. Those took a back seat, usually, to something else concerning a relationship.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sometimes they would discover new life on missions on a runabout or the Defiant. Then other times just being on the Station something or someone new would come through the wormhole or they would just initiate First Contact on the Station. (Being such an important outpost would just attract all sorts of species and threats from both sides of the Galaxy anyway).

I am having a very hard time remembering anything about discovering new life beyond the proto-shape shifter aliens they found.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But as the series went on they stopped focusing on discovering new species and concentrated more on the ongoing plot from the species already discovered (which actually lead to better stories anyway).

The war was interesting but it seemed a bit...empty. The show was really hampered by budget constraints.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Besides which why does a spin off have to be "Trekking" anyway? Many people just love the Trek futuristic setting and just enjoyed different types of stories in the same Universe.

That's true. I liked the show quite a bit. It just wasn't the strongest Trek out there.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I just started watching Enterprise. I will be flogged for saying this but it is the most enjoyable Star Trek series,

Season 4:

-Borderland
-Cold Station 12
-The Augments

-Afflicion
-Divergence

Are all great episodes and together tells us why Klingons in Kirk's time looked more human. I thought it was superbly done.

"In a Mirror, Darkly" in also a good one and a throwback to TOS with the parallel "evil universe".

Originally posted by dadudemon





I am having a very hard time remembering anything about discovering new life beyond the proto-shape shifter aliens they found.

In the first season they had new aliens coming through the wormhole to them. It happened a few times. One episode was about First Contact on the station with a species someone else had come into contact with in the Gamma Quadrant.

But yeah as the seasons went on, it was definitely rare.

But like I said the series mainly revolved around a handful of new species discovered. The Jem Hadar, the Founders and the Wormhole Aliens.

Originally posted by Robtard
Season 4:

-Borderland
-Cold Station 12
-The Augments

-Afflicion
-Divergence

Are all great episodes and together tells us why Klingons in Kirk's time looked more human. I thought it was superbly done.

I've not seen them. Didn't watch much of Enterprise. Was just too boring every time I tuned in.

But I doubt if the Klingons appear in the new Trek films that they will look human.

Originally posted by Robtard
"In a Mirror, Darkly" in also a good one and a throwback to TOS with the parallel "evil universe".

Yeah that was a good episode, except it had no damn ending. That just ruined it for me.

Oh but T'Pol and Hoshi were well hot in those episodes.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In the first season they had new aliens coming through the wormhole to them.

Oh: so not discovering.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It happened a few times. One episode was about First Contact on the station with a species someone else had come into contact with in the Gamma Quadrant.

Again, not discovering. That was diplomatic relations...the step after discovery. Someone else did the discovering and "courting", in that case.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Oh: so not discovering.



Again, not discovering. That was diplomatic relations...the step after discovery. Someone else did the discovering and "courting", in that case.

Well seen as the show was about a Space Station, that was the best way to do it really. Have it posted at a spot where different species come to them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I've not seen them. Didn't watch much of Enterprise. Was just too boring every time I tuned in.

But I doubt if the Klingons appear in the new Trek films that they will look human.



Yeah that was a good episode, except it had no damn ending. That just ruined it for me.

Oh but T'Pol and Hoshi were well hot in those episodes.

In the very least, watch those five episodes.

Well, not all Klingons were affected in Kirk's timeline, so yeah, they can go with crab-head ones easily enough. But the incidents would have happened already before the events that lead to the alternate timeline in Abrams Star Trek.

Indeed they were. IMO, Hoshi is hotter.

In DS9 they went through the wormhole more than once. It was their actual discovery that told the Federation about the Dominion.

Was there less exploration than other Trek shows? Sure. Does that make it less "Star Trek"? No. They were boldly going in their own way, and taking viewers with them.

For me, Enterprise got really good in seasons 3 and 4, and It's sad that we never got to see where they were going with it.

What was the relationship between the Enterprise timeline and TOS timeline? Were they taken to be the same, with any discrepancies ignored?

Originally posted by Mindship
What was the relationship between the Enterprise timeline and TOS timeline? Were they taken to be the same, with any discrepancies ignored?

Basically yeah. Same universe etc.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well seen as the show was about a Space Station, that was the best way to do it really. Have it posted at a spot where different species come to them.

I definitely agree. I think they did better with the show than I could expect. It had a lot more "Trek" to it than you would expect from a show centered around a deep space station that orbits a a single planet in a star system where only one sentient species makes its home (if you consider the Cardasians that made their home on Bajor artificial...like I do...and the Bajorans do, lol!).

Originally posted by Mindship
What was the relationship between the Enterprise timeline and TOS timeline? Were they taken to be the same, with any discrepancies ignored?

Except for the exception of the Borg sphere that crashed on Earth during the vents of Star Trek: First Contact, there is no timeline contamination or anything like that.



But, instead of first official contact with the Borg being 2365 (when Q thrust Picard and crew into the Delta quadrant to see the Borg for the first time), it was 2153 when the Starfleet scientists discovered the wreckage of the 2063 Sphere rubble that had fallen on to the earth during the Events of First Contact.


Here is how the enterprise writers handled the nascent Federation stumbling upon the wreckage of the Borg Sphere: Archer makes a comment to T'Pol that Zefram Cochrane once talked about the nature of the events that occured in 2063 (that a group of people from the future came back in time to save Zeram Cochrane's plans for a warp ship and the Borg came to stop Zefram from succeeding). They say, in the show, that Zefram later retracted those statements and blew it off as his drunkenness talking. Archer remembered because Cochrane was one of his heroes and he read every single speech or saying, ever, from Cochrane so he remembered Cochrane talking about the Borg in that one interview.

I do not know how they keep Starfleet from knowing about the Borg but I do know they wrote that the ship the Borg took over in that episode in Enterprise sent out a subspace transmission to the Borg in the Delta Quadrant and it will take 200 years to reach them. Thus perpetuating the events of First Contact because that is when they Borg will come back and attack earth to prevent them from developing the warp drive.



So did the writers of Enterprise create a closed loop timeline where even the time travel is accounted for and does not create a conflict? I think so. So I could be wrong about timeline contamination.

Anyway, I hope that explains shit.



Is there an official Enterprise thread?

Not that I know of. Feel free to make one, and if one turns up I can merge them.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Except for the exception of the Borg sphere that crashed on Earth during the vents of Star Trek: First Contact, there is no timeline contamination or anything like that.

But, instead of first official contact with the Borg being 2365 (when Q thrust Picard and crew into the Delta quadrant to see the Borg for the first time), it was 2153 when the Starfleet scientists discovered the wreckage of the 2063 Sphere rubble that had fallen on to the earth during the Events of First Contact.

Here is how the enterprise writers handled the nascent Federation stumbling upon the wreckage of the Borg Sphere: Archer makes a comment to T'Pol that Zefram Cochrane once talked about the nature of the events that occured in 2063 (that a group of people from the future came back in time to save Zeram Cochrane's plans for a warp ship and the Borg came to stop Zefram from succeeding). They say, in the show, that Zefram later retracted those statements and blew it off as his drunkenness talking. Archer remembered because Cochrane was one of his heroes and he read every single speech or saying, ever, from Cochrane so he remembered Cochrane talking about the Borg in that one interview.

I do not know how they keep Starfleet from knowing about the Borg but I do know they wrote that the ship the Borg took over in that episode in Enterprise sent out a subspace transmission to the Borg in the Delta Quadrant and it will take 200 years to reach them. Thus perpetuating the events of First Contact because that is when they Borg will come back and attack earth to prevent them from developing the warp drive.

So did the writers of Enterprise create a closed loop timeline where even the time travel is accounted for and does not create a conflict? I think so. So I could be wrong about timeline contamination.

Anyway, I hope that explains shit.

My impression was that the Temporal War was the series' default plot device to explain (away) any discrepancies. From what you wrote, sounds like they did (or tried to do) a plausible job.

That's cool. I like stories with well-done time loops, and Enterprise had a formidable task.

Props to this thread. DS9 is my favorite Trek series.

Originally posted by Mindship


My impression was that the Temporal War was the series' default plot device to explain (away) any discrepancies. From what you wrote, sounds like they did (or tried to do) a plausible job.

That's cool. I like stories with well-done time loops, and Enterprise had a formidable task.

There were several episodes that paid homage to TOS...and it was very nicely done.


I'll make a new thread just about Enterprise. I'm just about done watching it. I'll put my thoughts in there.

I recently watched all of DS9 and I have to say that as a whole it's probably the best Trek series. Granted I've only watched a little of TOS and I've only now started to watch Enterprise again (I used to watch an episode now and then when it was syndicated on UPN), but Voyager never appealed to me, and between DS9 and TNG I gotta say that DS9 impresses me more. Mainly for the last three seasons. Speaking of the episode in question, I was really impressed when they didn't just leave it as a one-off and actually made it an important plot point and a part of Sisko's character journey. It worked very well thematically seeing as one of the main selling points of the show vs other Trek series was "we're not going to whitewash--bad stuff happens, even in the Federation." What I really liked about DS9 was the fact that it "looks back." TNG, which I love (mainly for Data and Picard) has this nasty habit of only looking back to Earth's past from a smug, "oh we're never doing that again, thank God" perspective, whereas in DS9 the main question seems to be "well, will we ever go back?" I think Bashir sums it up the best in the 2020s San Fransisco time travel episode where he asks Sisko if humanity has really gotten that far, and if a few things should go wrong could they really stop themselves from becoming like the Romulans and Cardassians. I love that the Section 31 arc expands on this, suggesting that...well...humanity ISN'T so different from the Romulans or Cardassians.

The best thing for me about DS9 is that it dispenses with the ridiculous presentation of Starfleet in other series, where The Federation's military arm is about as militarized as our Coast Guard. I never bought that the Federation could survive with neighbors like the Romulans and Klingons if their military's prime interest is in exploration, and their weapons are given minor emphasis--things like the Defiant, the new gray uniforms, the threat of a military coup, and Section 31 made the Federation and Starfleet believable for me.

I agree with PR, I think the best episode is In the Pale Moonlight. Though I also really liked By Inferno's Light--the scene where the Romulan warbirds decloak and request permission to join the fleet...Sisko sums it up perfectly: "Well I'll be damned." Even the Borg were never a big enough and imminent enough menace where you'd see the Federation directly joining forces with their arguable nemesis.

Regarding Enterprise- From what I've heard, the Temporal Cold War, the mysterious guy leading the Suliban etc. would all lead to the Earth-Romulan War in the 5th season if the show would've continued and that conflict would've made the Dominion War look like a brief skirmish. It would've been so devastating that it basically forced the formation of the Federation.

Back on topic, I enjoyed DS9 and a lot of people liked it because of the ensemble cast and because it was both darker and more human. I can also see how it really pissed off a lot old fans and Gene Roddenberry's family since it featured a major galactic war between two powers and the Federation/humanity was supposed to be beyond all that and capable of solving any conflict not involving Doomsday machines or giant amoebas or the Borg with diplomacy. I think the Earth-Romulan War was intended to be the last outbreak of total war in the galaxy.