Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

The two legendary lightsaber masters fight in the Geonosis arena. Who wins? (My bad if this thread has been made before)

Kas'im wins.

Kas'im duh.

Why?

Originally posted by -kV-
Why?

'Cause he's Kas'im - that's why.

S'all the reason he needs.

Originally posted by -kV-
The two legendary lightsaber masters fight in the Geonosis arena. Who wins? (My bad if this thread has been made before) It's pretty hard to see how Obi-Wan is going to defeat skills like these.

Originally posted by -kV-
Why?

Primarily, I would say it's because Kas'im was pretty much the top lightsaber user of his time, rivaled only by Bane and Raskta Lsu, while Obi-wan was generally around 5th of the Clone War era (Windu, Palps, Yoda, Anakin, Obi-wan). Nor does Kas'im suffer the overconfidence flaw Anakin had.

Though honestly I would see it as a pretty epic battle when Kenobi's at his absolute peak.

Originally posted by Q99
Primarily, I would say it's because Kas'im was pretty much the top lightsaber user of his time, rivaled only by Bane and Raskta Lsu, while Obi-wan was generally around 5th of the Clone War era (Windu, Palps, Yoda, Anakin, Obi-wan).

I hope not, because this is tenuous logic at best. Obi-Wan's lower rank relative to his era's powerhouses does not necessarily lend itself to the notion that he would lose to Kas'im.

It pretty obvious Kas'im takes this. Neither is themforce powerhouse like say, as Yoda or Qui-Gon Jinn. is a

But Kas'im is maybe the most skilled lightsaber user ever, whereas Obi-Wan was a great master of Soresu but not really anywhere near that caliber.,

Kas'sim just didn't do enough for me to put him over obi wan.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
It pretty obvious Kas'im takes this. Neither is themforce powerhouse like say, as Yoda or Qui-Gon Jinn. is a

But Kas'im is maybe the most skilled lightsaber user ever, whereas Obi-Wan was a great master of Soresu but not really anywhere near that caliber.,

Ever? Don't think I can co-sign that one, though he certainly was good. It comes down to whether or not Obi-Wan can defend himself well enough to take Kas'im when he slips and leaves an opening. At his most aggressive Kas'im may be able to overwhelm in this battle.

Really it's a matter of interpretation but I would honestly thing Kas'im would be able to make shorter work of Grevious due to his direct style, and in that I see him as being beyond the prowess of Obi-wan.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I hope not, because this is tenuous logic at best. Obi-Wan's lower rank relative to his era's powerhouses does not necessarily lend itself to the notion that he would lose to Kas'im.

Well, some eras will be a bit stronger or weaker than others in different areas, the clone wars are noted for their strong saber skills, but still, in general, comparing in-era rank isn't a bad starting point to get a rough idea. I mean, it's not like there's much in the way of direct comparisons to use between eras by their very nature.

If the two are relatively close, then it's best to look at other factors. But a best-in-the-era is rarely going to lose to someone half a dozen down unless their particular era had particularly weak saber dueling, which the late New Sith Wars era wasn't.

Originally posted by Q99
the clone wars are noted for their strong saber skills,

George Lucas refers to the Jedi order during the prequels as "the golden age of Jedi" with respect to combat (Attack of the Clones featurette).

The two are both acclimated to lightsaber combat; Kas'im by his era and Kenobi by his rivals (Ventress, Savage). Ultimately, the battle will revolve around physical abilities and technical proficiency. The Stover novelization provides a high bar for Kenobi's abilities; in both the Dooku and Greivous duels, his channeling of the Force are described with very high-level claims. Twenty strikes per second and uniquely-notable unity with the Force are details which come to mind. External manipulation of the Force will likely not be a deciding factor, given that while Kas'im has been shown to have a particularly resilient telekinetic defense, no mention of aggressive usage is made by Drew's book. Meanwhile, Kenobi has demonstrated a similarly potent defense, but as a Jedi is unlikely to attack with the Force.

If strength in the Force is removed from consideration, Kas'im has to be declared the victor. His character consists of two things: Gruff mentorship of Bane, and technical proficiency. His intimate familiarity with lightsaber combat and penchant for fighting other Force users regardless of respective midichlorian count suggest that in all of the areas where combat is likely to occur, he is Kenobi's superior. In the rest, Kenobi's advantages are insufficient to turn the tables.

I'm just kidding with this a bit but wouldn't this edited paragraph be just as true as the original version?

If strength in the Force is removed from consideration, obi-wan has to be declared the victor. His character consists of two things: Gruff mentorship of Anakin, and technical proficiency. His intimate familiarity with lightsaber combat and penchant for fighting other Force users regardless of respective midichlorian count suggest that in all of the areas where combat is likely to occur, he is Kas'ims superior. In the rest, Kas'ims advantages are insufficient to turn the tables.

But Kas'im is better at all the areas you mentioned bro. High level master of all 9 forms >> high level master of one. Plus he is probably stronger in the Force as well, tanking temple destroying attack >>> getting ragdoll by someone like Dooku.

In a battle between Dooku and Kas'im - Dooku would win after a difficult duel.

Obi-wan who is below Dooku, but extremely close to Kas'im in terms of capabilities, would put up a very hellish fight against Kas'im, and lose.

Kas'im wins this - but he'll be limping away afterward.

It will be absurdly difficult for Kas'im, but he can win. Personally, I can see him losing a limb in order to take down Kenobi.

Keep in mind that Kas'im is also so highly accredited because of how he fights. He straight out says that most people will not know how to fight a double bladed saber, and that is why he wins so much. Then he goes on to losing that part of the fight to Bane (Who is only a moderate-level saber user) until he swaps to two blades. However, Kenobi has experience fighting all of these weapons. That , combined with his prodigious defensive ability, means Kas'im will have to resort to some really unorthodox things.

All in all, I would say 5/10 or 6/10 for Kas'im.

Rookwood, that is a terrible line of argument.
Pwned, I don't think it's fair to say that Kas'im was only victorious because of his weapon type. His familiarity with all styles and ease in switching from one combination to the next is listed as the root of his skill; it is only against Bane's precognition that he needed the advantage of an unfamiliar weapon.

Mortis has summarized my argument, but I'll explain a little bit more:

I don't think so. For one thing, Kenobi's character is not reducible to combat and teaching. He is known as the Great Diplomat, he has friendships with people, as well as non-dueling skills like piloting and forensic analysis. Meanwhile, Kas'im is basically a plot device that uses a lightsaber.

This is not to say that mere shallowness is enough to win a character a duel, but Kas'im has certainly specialized much more narrowly than Kenobi. In the realm of lightsaber combat, he is the undisputed expert of the two. Notably, Kenobi has been shown to master one form, while Kas'im has mastered and innovated all of them.

Since you agree that lightsaber prowess is the deciding factor, Kas'im the Magnificent is the likely victor.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
George Lucas refers to the Jedi order during the prequels as "the golden age of Jedi" with respect to combat (Attack of the Clones featurette).

Indeed. Still, while that says to me that they have a higher concentration of high-end duelists than other eras, that doesn't say to me that they should run over the top duelists of other eras, especially when comparing someone around 6th place to someone in contention for first.

Originally posted by Rookwood
In a battle between Dooku and Kas'im - Dooku would win after a difficult duel.

Obi-wan who is below Dooku, but extremely close to Kas'im in terms of capabilities, would put up a very hellish fight against Kas'im, and lose.

Kas'im wins this - but he'll be limping away afterward.

Not a chance bro, Dooku is good but Kas'im is on another level, they're both around the same level in Force powers probably, but Kas'im is the definite advantage in saber styles, Dooku like Obi-Wan is high level of one form but Kas'im is high level master of all.

You see it in MMA all the time, the more weapons you have the more you keep your opponent guessing and the more effectiuve your attack is, plus it makes you more preperaed for whever a fight can take you, hence why in MMA it is usually the Muay Thai practritioners with grappling that present the greatest threat (example: Jon Jones - he strikes with kicks to keep distance, using side kicks to push oppinennt back, oblique kicks to target joints, roudnhouse kick for damage, and when it gets close elbows/knees or the clinch with takedowns, where he can use submissions or nasty ground n pound elbows), when you have less weapons it usually takes a lot more skill, athleticism or toughness to compete, hence Anderson Silva and no wrestling.

Hence, Kas'im can tailor the style he uses against Makashi, so he will use Makashi's weak point, and vary styles tjhat best suits terrain, range and angles. Kas'im would defeat Dooku in quite ahrd battle.

Originally posted by Pwned
It will be absurdly difficult for Kas'im, but he can win. Personally, I can see him losing a limb in order to take down Kenobi.

What kind absurd preidction is this bro?! He will win but lose a limb? Silly argument bro.



Bane only beating Kas'im because he memorised his moves perfectly, and because he is extremely powerful in the Force, much more so than Dooku or Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan has little to offer Kas'im, Kasa'im wins 99/100.

I'm not entirely convinced by Kas'im here. Kas'im was the Sith lightsaber instructor, and a master of all the lightsaber forms. Yet, that makes him no different than a Jedi Battlemaster, such as Cin Drallig. Drallig also mastered the Forms, but got owned by pre-suit Vader. Sora Bulq also mastered every form of lightsaber combat, and yet he lost to Quinlan Vos (fvck yeah).

Also, in the "Round 1" of the Lehon duel, Bane was outdueling Kas'Im. Only when Kas'im pulled out the completely foreign Jar'Kai did the battle change tides.


Finally, this:

"Kas'im lunged again, and the room around them was filled with the hiss hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats."

Even if you assume some insane heart rate, such as 180 beats per minute, that would mean that Kas'im and Bane were striking each other 6 times in .67 seconds. Therefore, in 1 second, they were essentially striking each other about 9 times.

If Kenobi can defend up to 20 strikes per second, well then...

Kas'im was a master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat, honing each move down to complete perfection and then was able to fight by consistantly changing styles to confound and bewilder his opponents. Even if he starts losing with his double-bladed saber, he can always switch to dual wielding regular lightsabers.

I don't recall Kenobi EVER coming up against an enemy of that caliber, but if he did, he would be dead in a matter of a few minutes.

Originally posted by jmoul
Kas'im was a master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat, honing each move down to complete perfection and then was able to fight by consistantly changing styles to confound and bewilder his opponents. Even if he starts losing with his double-bladed saber, he can always switch to dual wielding regular lightsabers.

I don't recall Kenobi EVER coming up against an enemy of that caliber, but if he did, he would be dead in a matter of a few minutes.

And yet, that mastery and constant switching didn't work well against Bane. And this is also against the guy who is the greatest practitioner of Soresu, the defensive form. If Kenobi could really defend against up to 20 strikes per second, and Bane and Kas'Im were striking each other at 9 or less times a second, I don't how see how Kas'Im overwhelms Kenobi...

Sora Bul and Cin Drallig like anoon bondaras were lightsaber instructors but that does not mean that they mastered all of them, just that they could teach and probably mastered at least 1 (quinlan vos has only fluke victory over sulq bora btw).

Bane only doing well against kas'im because he trained with him for hours and memories all his moves,plus his incredible sterngth in the force.

Yes Kenobi can defend 20 strieks a second but it is not all about speed Grievous may be faster than kas'im but he nowhere enar as skilled Kas'im will be far more accurate and use far better combinations and misdiretcion etc. and open up Kenboi's defences using skill and careful, clever sowrdplay.

Just like Barecelona use great and skillful passing/possession game to open up teams, whereas other teams may rely more on powerful, quick players with good long shooting abilities.

Originally posted by -kV-
And yet, that mastery and constant switching didn't work well against Bane. And this is also against the guy who is the greatest practitioner of Soresu, the defensive form. If Kenobi could really defend against up to 20 strikes per second, and Bane and Kas'Im were striking each other at 9 or less times a second, I don't how see how Kas'Im overwhelms Kenobi...

As I said, Kas'im was a master of ALL SEVEN forms of lightsaber combat, including Soresu, and when one is a master of any form, they will know every single weakness found in each style, which Kas'im will exploit at every turn.

Look, Kas'im is just too good for Kenobi, his skill with lightsabers exceeds Kenobi's by a quantum leap. There is literally no way for Kenobi to beat him. The reason Kas'im lost to Bane was because Bane caught him monologing on the Lost World and caused the entire temple to collapse onto Kas'im. Kenobi doesn't have a temple, past experience with facing Kas'im, nor is he anywhere near as strong in the Force as Bane was.

Sorry, but suck it up, Kenobi loses everytime.

Originally posted by Q99
Indeed. Still, while that says to me that they have a higher concentration of high-end duelists than other eras, that doesn't say to me that they should run over the top duelists of other eras, especially when comparing someone around 6th place to someone in contention for first. That matters a lot when literally not a single individual in that order that Kas'im is flourishing in was renown for aptitude with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
That matters a lot when literally not a single individual in that order that Kas'im is flourishing in was renown for aptitude with a lightsaber.

That we know of.

Originally posted by jmoul
As I said, Kas'im was a master of ALL SEVEN forms of lightsaber combat, including Soresu, and when one is a master of any form, they will know every single weakness found in each style, which Kas'im will exploit at every turn.


That's simply not true. Awareness of Soresu's weakness doesn't automatically translate to successful exploitation. You need to be able to execute and actually penetrate the defense. Nothing definitive tells me that Kas'im has the capability of doing just that. Kas'im could rely on whatever technique to hammer away at Kenobi, but if Obi-Wan's bladework is too fast and always one step ahead, then the Sith Lord will ultimately never get past that defense.




This just reeks of fanboyism...Simply stating he's the best doesn't prove how...



Actually, the only reason Kas'im even had a ghost of chance was he decided to unleash a completely foreign technique that Bane had never witnessed. In Round 1, Bane had his number completely, even though Kas'im was trying all sorts of different forms and maneuvers. Kenobi has sparred and fought against master practitioners of numerous forms, and he wouldn't be surprised by anything.




And how are you saying that Kas'im is so much stronger in the Force than Kenobi? What evidence? That he can TK? That he can Force shield? And what makes you think that Kas'im will rely on these unknown prodigious Force abilities to win? This will primarily be a lightsaber contest.

Until you provide actual evidence to suggest how Kas'im can overcome Kenobi's defense, you have no argument.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Sora Bul and Cin Drallig like anoon bondaras were lightsaber instructors but that does not mean that they mastered all of them, just that they could teach and probably mastered at least 1

Except the Star Wars Databank stated Bulq as, "one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi order had ever known, perfecting the various forms of combat techniques, both classical and experimental." Bulq did indeed master and perfect the lightsaber forms, yet that skill provided zero help when him and Tholme tried to fight Dooku. Similar to Cin Drallig's case, it goes to show that even if you are a master of lightsaber combat, and you have the capacity to switch forms to exploit your opponent's fighting style, you still may not overcome your enemy if he/she is simply too good.




Except it was hardly a "fluke" :







As I said before, Obi-Wan has spent thousands of hours sparring, and fighting against practitioners of the various forms.


I might as well quote this:

The electrodrivers powering Grievous's mechanical arms let each of the four attack thrice in a single second; integrated by combat algorithms in the bio-droid's electronic network of peripheral processors, each of the twelve strikes per second came from a different angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs of which every single one could take Obi-Wan's life. Not one touched him.

After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters.

Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip.



Grievous's attacks were programmed for deadly efficacy. All of his strikes had different pace/angle, and each of them were capable of killing Kenobi. Futhermore, his attacks were much faster than Kas'im's. Nothing could break Kenobi's defense.


As for your example, fine, Kas'im may be Barcelona, but then Obi-Wan could be Chelsea. You remember their last Champions League clash. Barcelona kept attacking and attacking, and Chelsea defended and defended. When there was a brief opening, Chelsea came in and counterattacked for the win.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
That matters a lot when literally not a single individual in that order that Kas'im is flourishing in was renown for aptitude with a lightsaber.

We know some Jedi of the time like Raskta Lsu were.

Originally posted by Q99
Indeed. Still, while that says to me that they have a higher concentration of high-end duelists than other eras, that doesn't say to me that they should run over the top duelists of other eras, especially when comparing someone around 6th place to someone in contention for first.

All I'm saying is that determining the fight on a comparison of their relative placement of their era is faulty thinking. It may be a fair place to begin the conversation, but shouldn't be the end of it.

Again, by no means am I completely rooting for Kenobi here, even despite that lengthy post above. If the outcome was so certain from the get-go, I wouldn't have created this thread.

All I seem to be hearing is, "Kas'im knows all lightsaber forms! Kas'im is a master of these forms! Ergo, Kas'im will be able to break Kenobi's defense!" Except that last part simply isn't true, and definitely shouldn't be the sole piece of evidence to give the Sith Lord the win.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
All I'm saying is that determining the fight on a comparison of their relative placement of their era is faulty thinking. It may be a fair place to begin the conversation, but shouldn't be the end of it.

Here's the thing: What are our options?


Figuring the place in the era, and figuring how the two eras compare to each other, is pretty much the only way to compare that we've got.

Korto, I would advise you to look up Silver2467's arguments for Obi-Wan and the like on Comic Vine. Extremely well sourced and articulated; he handed Nephthys his ass there on an argument about Bane (or was it Zannah?) vs. Obi-Wan.

I found an Obi-Wan vs Darth Bane thread, and agreed with many of Silver's points. In general, I feel KMC has always underrated Kenobi over the years.

Originally posted by -kV-
Except the Star Wars Databank stated Bulq as, "one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi order had ever known, perfecting the various forms of combat techniques, both classical and experimental." Bulq did indeed master and perfect the lightsaber forms, yet that skill provided zero help when him and Tholme tried to fight Dooku.

So? All it stated is that he masters lightsaber forms, not all of them. and Dooku defeats Bulq via the Force btw.,



Kas'im is still much better than people you listed, and I dont know why you seem to think Obi-Wan is one of those guys who can beat the more skilled swordsmen. Obi-Wan is not a great Force User pal, he is not a Bane, a Exar Kun, a Qui-Gon Jinn etc, he is average at best and just reaLLY GOOD at a single lightsaber form.

This is not case where mosre skilled swordsman is againast more powerful force user. Kas'im is both more skilled and more powerful than Obi-Wan as hence from his tanking a temple destrpoying attack.



It really was champ, Sora Bulq is owning him entire battle and Quinlan surprises him at the end with killer blow. In any kind of combat sport that would be called a "flash KO" and would be considered a fluke, i.e. JDS-Velasqeuz 1 or GSP-Matt Serra 1.







Bro. This is not same thing as memorising all of Kas'ims exact moves.



Pal you already made your point, his attacks were fast, I did not disagree with that, point is Obi-Wan showed great defence against a forceful attack, which is not same thing as defending against a skillfull attack, not one bit.



You have digressed.

Originally posted by -kV-
Again, by no means am I completely rooting for Kenobi here, even despite that lengthy post above. If the outcome was so certain from the get-go, I wouldn't have created this thread.

All I seem to be hearing is, "Kas'im knows all lightsaber forms! Kas'im is a master of these forms! Ergo, Kas'im will be able to break Kenobi's defense!" Except that last part simply isn't true, and definitely shouldn't be the sole piece of evidence to give the Sith Lord the win.

How about, he is also more powerful in the Force AS WELL as having mastered all 9 forms?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Korto, I would advise you to look up Silver2467's arguments for Obi-Wan and the like on Comic Vine. Extremely well sourced and articulated; he handed Nephthys his ass there on an argument about Bane (or was it Zannah?) vs. Obi-Wan.

Oh cute, he's on there too.

On another note though, I never thought the people on Comic Vine knew much about Star Wars.

Honestly, you'd have to be brain-damaged or be high on crack to think Obi-wan has a chance at all against DoE Bane - especially after the revelation of the Rain-Feat.

They clearly don't know what they're talking about - but DoE Bane would rape Obi-wan really hard, before killing him.

Bane has Obi-wan out-classed in swordsmanship, speed and of course, Force capability/strength. So it should be obvious.

I expected this much though, after I saw that they were, for reason, actually debating a Yoda vs Darth Nihilus thread.

- As if there's anything in there to actually debate about..


Edit: Obi-wan would get raped by DoE Bane - and come to think of it, saying that Obi-wan can take Bane, is like saying Obi-wan can take Sidious.

And he can't take either.

Originally posted by Q99
Here's the thing: What are our options?


Figuring the place in the era, and figuring how the two eras compare to each other, is pretty much the only way to compare that we've got.

Hmm I wouldn't say that you can still look at their individual credentials, hence Kas'im mastering all forms versus Obi-Wan's one, tanking Bane's force attack that destroy temple where obi-wan get ragdolled by middle tier force user like dooku.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Oh cute, he's on there too.

On another note though, I never thought the people on Comic Vine knew much about Star Wars.

Honestly, you'd have to be brain-damaged or be high on crack to think Obi-wan has a chance at all against DoE Bane - especially after the revelation of the Rain-Feat.

They clearly don't know what they're talking about - but DoE Bane would rape Obi-wan really hard, before killing him.

Bane has Obi-wan out-classed in swordsmanship, speed and of course, Force capability/strength. So it should be obvious.

I expected this much though, after I saw that they were, for reason, actually debating a Yoda vs Darth Nihilus thread.

- As if there's anything in there to actually debate about..


Edit: Obi-wan would get raped by DoE Bane - and come to think of it, saying that Obi-wan can take Bane, is like saying Obi-wan can take Sidious.

And he can't take either.

Silver, like him or not, habitually provides exhaustive support from a spectrum of sources to substantiate his claims.

That separates him from more than a few here, who are simply content to make baseless claims ad nauseam.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
That we know of. Nothing else really matters, in a discussion that's supposed to be about facts.

Originally posted by Q99
Here's the thing: What are our options?


Figuring the place in the era, and figuring how the two eras compare to each other, is pretty much the only way to compare that we've got.

Compare them by way of feats. Simply saying "Well, Obi-Wan was about the 7th best Jedi Master at the time" whereas "Kas'im was about number 1 in his time" is not enough to decide the contest.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Silver, like him or not, habitually provides exhaustive support from a spectrum of sources to substantiate his claims.

That separates him from more than a few here, who are simply content to make baseless claims ad nauseam.

I wasn't referring to Silver in that first line (I actually don't know him) - I was referring to Nephthys. I like him.

But aside from that.

Whatever good points Silver does bring up about Obi-wan, it wouldn't save him from the fact that DoE Bane, on his worst day, could likely kill Obi-wan on his best day.

It also seems like most of the Comic Vine folk in there haven't read Dynasty of Evil, either.

Originally posted by Rookwood
I wasn't referring to Silver in that first line (I actually don't know him) - I was referring to Nephthys. I like him.

I know you weren't. You disparaged the Comic Viners, which is why I said that Silver (like him or not) is a paragon of substantiation and support.

Originally posted by Rookwood
But aside from that.

Whatever good points Silver does bring up about Obi-wan, it wouldn't save him from the fact that DoE Bane, on his worst day, could likely kill Obi-wan on his best day.

It also seems like most of the Comic Vine folk in there haven't read Dynasty of Evil, either.

I'm not speaking for the Comic Vine folk in general. I'm speaking for one. And that one provides tremendous support for his claims... unlike some others. That already puts him and his argument at an advantage.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Nothing else really matters, in a discussion that's supposed to be about facts.

It is a fact that we do not know if there were other renowned Sith lightsaber practitioners in Kas'im's era. Apparently Kopez was really good though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I know you weren't. You disparaged the Comic Viners, which is why I said that Silver (like him or not) is a paragon of substantiation and support.

I'm not speaking for the Comic Vine folk in general. I'm speaking for one. And that one provides tremendous support for his claims... unlike some others. That already puts him and his argument at an advantage.

Well I can respect you for taking his side for that.

If he does bring up good, astute factual points, then that is a boon.

But I'm just saying, all the good factoids in the universe, wouldn't save Obi-wan from Bane, ramming his lightsaber into Obi-wan's ass.

I don't disparage all the Comic Viners, though, it just looks like some of them haven't read DoE.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
So? All it stated is that he masters lightsaber forms, not all of them. and Dooku defeats Bulq via the Force btw.,

You're missing the point my friend. That statement on Bulq is similar to the description on Kas'im. And yet, we know that Bulq would be outclassed by Obi-Wan in dueling.




If you define skillful as being overall more proficient in more lightsaber forms than another, then yes, Kas'im is more "skillful" than Kenobi. However, as I have been saying, Kas'im's mastery of the forms doesn't translate to him overcoming one considered to be the greatest in one form. Kas'im could try whatever attack he want, but he still won't succeed.




I ask you again- please tell me how Kas'im could use the Force to win against Kenobi.





Except you just dodged my previous post explaining why it wasn't simply a fluke victory. Again, the whole point of this was to show why being a master lightsaber instructor who knows every form doesn't translate you to being the best fighter.





It is not about memorization. Rather, Obi-Wan would be well-familiar with any style Kas'im decides to attack with.





Grievous's attacks were coming in with different angle, pace, and power. Each of those 12, 16, 18, and finally 20 attacks were different. You cannot downgrade this as a "forceful attack" lacking any skill when each of these 12+ different attacks could "take Obi-Wan's life" if they weren't all blocked.

I fail to see how a Jedi who can defend successfully against a cyborg who can launch 20 different deadly strikes per second would suddenly have difficulty against someone who attacks "half a dozen times in 2 heartbeats" (9 >/= x strikes/second). Even if Kas'im's attacks were, as you put it, "skillful" Kenobi would have plenty of time to react to them. And I've already explained why even if Kas'im was more "skillful" relative to being better overall with respect to the number of forms, that doesn't translate to Kenobi suddenly having difficulty with attacks from forms he is well-familiar with.



Except you brought up the analogy, and I countered with a similar analogy to prove why Kas'im could still lose.

Originally posted by -kV-
You're missing the point my friend. That statement on Bulq is similar to the description on Kas'im. And yet, we know that Bulq would be outclassed by Obi-Wan in dueling.

But it's not as good, Sora masters some lightsaber duels, Kas'im masters ALL 9., So Kas'im is still a lot more skilled, plis he is probable more powerful with the force.

We dont know obi-Wan ebats Sora Bulq btw.



Seiing as Kas'im is not just master but high level master of all 9 forms, he is definitely more skilled.



Kas'im is at very least close to Obi-wan in Soresu, as he is high level master of the form. So then take into account his masteyr of all the others, it is no contest imo.






Point is Bane is more powerful in the force and so he is faster, stronger, more atheltic basically. Obi-Wan does not possess this same advnatge.



Sora does not know eveyr form though.







Which is not as good as memorising them exactly vbro.





I never claimed thta they were no skill at all but point is main selling point of them is speed, only thing special ewas speed, what is special ABOUT kASD'im is his skill, so it is compeltely different type of attack Obi-Wan is defending against.



You is comparing apples and pears. grievous brings a lot of speed to the table. Kas'im brings skill. It is like comparing say, Vitor Belfort and Anderson Siva. Vitor Belfort has much faster hands, but Anderson Silva is still far more dangerous strikwer nad it because of his mix of speed, power, accuracy, technique, misdirection and timing.



Point I was making is that it isnt just about speed. Otherwise lightwegiths would be more dangerous than heavyweights.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Hmm I wouldn't say that you can still look at their individual credentials, hence Kas'im mastering all forms versus Obi-Wan's one, tanking Bane's force attack that destroy temple where obi-wan get ragdolled by middle tier force user like dooku.

I wouldn't exactly call Dooku middle tier.

And force defense shouldn't matter a lot in this fight, Kas'im is going to rely on bladework more.

Another idea for this thread. Not sure if people have forgotten, but Kas'im isn't limited to a double-bladed saber. If things go badly with the double-bladed, he can split the handle to dual wield. When Kas'im did this against Bane, he was almost victorious, had he not started to monolog, giving Bane time to gather his power.

Grievous was both fast and strong, yes, but that is literally ALL he had, he didn't have Kas'im's incredible skill and he did not have control of the Force after he became mostly robot.

Now, take half of Grievous's speed, add Kas'im's mastery to the point of perfection in EVERY form of saber combat (as it states in PoD) and his strong command of the Force. Kenobi was able to beat Grievous because the robot was both overconfident, and he had NO command of the Force.

Kenobi is among my favorite characters in the movies; he does what he must without emotions stopping him. I honestly see him as a total badass in the movies, but he is clearly out-matched in sabers when facing Kas'im.

Finally, when I said Kas'im was a master of all the forms of saber combat, knew the weaknesses of each form and would exploit those weaknesses, I thought it was implied that I meant that he would TRY to exploit the weaknesses in Obi-Wan's style. My claim that Kas'im would exploit all weaknesses he could is from my own knowledge of sword combat from my European and Japanese Fencing classes: if you can see (or if you already know of) a weakness in your opponent's frame and form, exploit it as soon as possible. Kas'im would be skilled enough to know that basic strategy, and with his skill, there is no chance that anybody, even those who have mastered defensive styles, can stand against one who has mastered every form there is to master, as the one who mastered more knows exactly how to exploit a weakness and will do so as soon as they see it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Korto, I would advise you to look up Silver2467's arguments for Obi-Wan and the like on Comic Vine. Extremely well sourced and articulated; he handed Nephthys his ass there on an argument about Bane (or was it Zannah?) vs. Obi-Wan.

No he didn't. He was a douchebag so I stopped talking to him. I find your reverence for him to be nauseating personally. I only talked to him because you begged me to.



In my opinion this is clearly non-canon. Grievious doesn't strike 20 times in the entire duel, never mind ramping up from 12 strikes.

Nice post Legend.

Originally posted by -kV-
Firstly, dude, Sora Bulq did master all forms of lightsaber combat. It even says on the second sentence of his Wookie page:"Renowned among the Jedi for his skill with a lightsaber, Bulq mastered every form of lightsaber combat known among the Jedi, becoming one of their greatest instructors in the lightsaber forms."

Not canon, not interested, pal.



That he spent time mastering various forms. Not all of them.



More powerful Force Users can defeat the more powerful lightsaber practitione rin lightsaber combat, but unfortunately buddy Obi-Wan is not more skilled, or more powerful than Kas'im.

Face it dude, Obi-Wan is not even close to upper tier. One of my favorite characters but he was never known for being a great fighterever.



See Legend's post.



I agree but force powers come into play into lightsabers.




Sure. Just like Matt Serra is > GSP. Just like Gabriel Gonzaga > Cro Cop. People can get caught, it doesn't mean they're not as good, dominating performances beat flash finishes.




There is big difference to fighting multiple people who master each individual style, and fighting a guy who masters all himself.

Anderson Silva has defeated elite wrestlers (Chael Sonnen), elite strikers (Vitor Belfort), and elite BJitsukas (Demian Maia) but nobody would try to argue that if you merged all 3 guys into one that he would be able to beat him.

Maul was much weaker during cartoon btw, and see Legend's post on this matter.

Dooku was figthing both Anakin and Obi-Wan at once, he was nevere one on one with Kenobi.

Against Anakin, Obi-Wan had similar advantage that Bane had against Kas'im, as he trained hours sparring with him and knew his moves perfectly.



Grievous achieves great speed through other emans. Nothing states Kenobi was moving as fast, he does not have to move as fast to defend Grievous's strikes.

Also you have only posted the speed they were moving at at a singl sentence, You don't know that they weren't moving faster at other times. Grievous wasn't moving at 20sps entie duel, he slowly built up to it.

Also see Nethpys the toolbag's post, this is of questionable canon level.



Sora did not know 7 he might not have even known more than 3.





If I memorise the answers to the test, I have advantage over person who has studied all the textbooks extensively. Hence, Dooku training with masters of all forms is not the same as Bane memorising perfectly all of Kas'im's moves.




Bro, you heavily overestimate Grievous. He has been extremely underpowered in recent media, even a scrub like Kit Fisto was able to beat him recently. Yes he is extremely fats and strong, yes he uses multiple lightsaber and has training in all forms according to you, but he is not a master of those forms or anywhere enar as skilled a martial artist as Kas'im, and he does not have force connetcion and stuffs like precognition. Hence you is comapring apples and pears.



This argument again?No that is not Bane's opinion that is writer stating that as a fact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he didn't. He was a douchebag so I stopped talking to him. I find your reverence for him to be nauseating personally. I only talked to him because you begged me to.



In my opinion this is clearly non-canon. Grievious doesn't strike 20 times in the entire duel, never mind ramping up from 12 strikes.

When you going to join in on the argument bro? I know that youll be rooting for Kas'im too.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he didn't. He was a douchebag so I stopped talking to him. I find your reverence for him to be nauseating personally. I only talked to him because you begged me to.



Why are you so angry about this?

He was very rude. estahuh

That he was. He was also very right and handed you your ass. No need to put your fragile ego on display, bro.

Take your lashes and learn from it. stoned

Nope, because Bane would beat Ob-Wan's ass and you know it. I'd be happy to debate you on the matter if you want.

Bro, why do I need to relive a prior victory? Turn down the butthurt and move on with your sad, English life.

Link? Nothing make me happier than seeing the toolbag's crushing, humilitating defeat.

Wonderful, Legend has entered the fray. I'm going to have a fun time owning these counterarguments...

facepalm

You've already fallen into the trap, my son.

...Believe me, once I finish this post, I'm not going to bother to respond if I receive only dodges and repetitive failed points.

Originally posted by -kV-
I'm not going to bother to respond if I receive only dodges and repetitive failed points.



That's all you're guaranteed to receive ever from that particular person.

KV, as this is essence of your argument, please prove that Grievous' much quicker, skillfull attack is so much harder than Kas'im's much more skillfull, quick attack. Prove that the difference in ten sps is not made up for the fact that Kas'im has much more skillfull attack than grievous.

Also admit please that this is not case of Obi-Wan being more powerful in th Force, and Kas'im's high level mastery of all 9 forms does trumps his high level mastery of just soresu, not the invincible form you make it out to be but a form just like others with weaknesses that can be exploited.

1. is you saing wookie is canon?

2. I am just stating facts Obi-Wan is not a great fighter, he is never been one of those "overpower" or "Force Gods" that you get in Star Wars, he was no match for the best people at the time like Yoda and Sidious, he is only notable for playing a big part in major piece of history, e was not himself a very great fighter, i.e. one of the best ever.

3. Actually no it is the writer who states that Kas'im has high level mastery of all 9 forms, this was not Bane's opinion.

4. Now you just being silly. As Tzeenth would tell you we go by facts. If we look at the facts, Kas'im has far greater credentials than Grievous when it comes to swordsmanship. Onus is on you chum.

As I suspected, you are simply going to dodge and repeat yourself. I hope Legend doesn't do the same.

Just concede; I don't want to have to call you a fanboy

Since when Mastery of all Forms is the deciding factor?
Sidious mastered all Forms. Yet, Windu who mastered only 1 Form defeated him. Yet, Yoda who Mastered only 1 Form had no problem fighting him. Yet, Luke who didn't master a single Form outskilled him.

The same Ka'sim was the one getting out dueled until he switched to Jarkai.

Not to mention Cin Drallig...

Originally posted by Arhael
Since when Mastery of all Forms is the deciding factor?
Sidious mastered all Forms. Yet, Windu who mastered only 1 Form defeated him. Yet, Yoda who Mastered only 1 Form had no problem fighting him. Yet, Luke who didn't master a single Form outskilled him.

The same Ka'sim was the one getting out dueled until he switched to Jarkai.

Not to mention Cin Drallig...

Originally posted by -kV-
As I suspected, you are simply going to dodge and repeat yourself. I hope Legend doesn't do the same.

Just concede; I don't want to have to call you a fanboy

Buddy, face it, you have lost, your armies are outnumbered and I hold the high ground. May you be with the Force, because buddy you is going to need it for when Legend whoop yo ass.

I have seen something multiple times on this thread alone, so I intend to correct it: there are only 7 forms of lightsaber combat (classically), if you are counting variations created by individual Jedi/Sith, then just realize that they aren't considered to be official lightsaber combat forms, just a personal twist on pre-existing forms.

I honestly don't understand how anyone could vote for Kas'im. The pro-Kas'im side hasn't provided any legitimate evidence demonstrating how their character could defeat Kenobi.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
1. is you saing wookie is canon?

2. I am just stating facts Obi-Wan is not a great fighter, he is never been one of those "overpower" or "Force Gods" that you get in Star Wars, he was no match for the best people at the time like Yoda and Sidious, he is only notable for playing a big part in major piece of history, e was not himself a very great fighter, i.e. one of the best ever.

3. Actually no it is the writer who states that Kas'im has high level mastery of all 9 forms, this was not Bane's opinion.

4. Now you just being silly. As Tzeenth would tell you we go by facts. If we look at the facts, Kas'im has far greater credentials than Grievous when it comes to swordsmanship. Onus is on you chum. Get out. How can you say Obi Wan was not a great fighter then in another thread you say Qui gon is better than Yoda.?!?!!?

Originally posted by -kV-
I honestly don't understand how anyone could vote for Kas'im. The pro-Kas'im side hasn't provided any legitimate evidence demonstrating how their character could defeat Kenobi. i think it is because Kas'im was cool as shit and was a big fish in a small pond. To an inexperienced bane and the chumps of kaans brotherhood he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Unfortunately his word of mouth and lack of feats don't really add up to much. Bane didn't even know anything about fighting/defending against dual sabers, i dont think he's the best guy to judge who the greatest swordsman in the galaxy is. Kas'im was the best swordsman Bane had seen up til then, and the best in the brotherhood, but a running theme throughout the book was that the kaan and the brotherhood were weak due to the dark side being spread amongst so many. Their strength was in their numbers not in individual powerhouses. Kas'im being the best swordsman out of a bunch of watered down sith isnt really all that great.

Originally posted by Raptor22
i think it is because Kas'im was cool as shit and was a big fish in a small pond. To an inexperienced bane and the chumps of kaans brotherhood he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Unfortunately his word of mouth and lack of feats don't really add up to much. Bane didn't even know anything about fighting/defending against dual sabers, i dont think he's the best guy to judge who the greatest swordsman in the galaxy is. Kas'im was the best swordsman Bane had seen up til then, and the best in the brotherhood, but a running theme throughout the book was that the kaan and the brotherhood were weak due to the dark side being spread amongst so many. Their strength was in their numbers not in individual powerhouses. Kas'im being the best swordsman out of a bunch of watered down sith isnt really all that great.



Agreed.

Jesus christ you some kind of crazed Obi-Wan fanboy?! He's really not all that great, very important character in saga, but average in the Force and never quite the top tier (e.g. Yoda etc) of saber combat.

As Zampano said, Kas'im is plot device with lightsaber, his main trait is that he is INCREDIBLE with a lightsaber, its who his character is bro. Obi-Wan is basically outclassed and outgunned. kekekekekeBwahhahhahahah!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Korto, I would advise you to look up Silver2467's arguments for Obi-Wan and the like on Comic Vine. Extremely well sourced and articulated; he handed Nephthys his ass there on an argument about Bane (or was it Zannah?) vs. Obi-Wan.

LOL really??

Share the link bro!

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Neither is themforce powerhouse like say, as Yoda or Qui-Gon Jinn. is a
,


Originally posted by mnat801
Get out. How can you say Obi Wan was not a great fighter then in another thread you say Qui gon is better than Yoda.?!?!!?

Yes mnat801, TheOneOfMortis is right! Qui-Gon was a force god! How else do you explain the way he ragdolled Maul all over the place??

Originally posted by Raptor22
i think it is because Kas'im was cool as shit and was a big fish in a small pond. To an inexperienced bane and the chumps of kaans brotherhood he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Unfortunately his word of mouth and lack of feats don't really add up to much. Bane didn't even know anything about fighting/defending against dual sabers, i dont think he's the best guy to judge who the greatest swordsman in the galaxy is. Kas'im was the best swordsman Bane had seen up til then, and the best in the brotherhood, but a running theme throughout the book was that the kaan and the brotherhood were weak due to the dark side being spread amongst so many. Their strength was in their numbers not in individual powerhouses. Kas'im being the best swordsman out of a bunch of watered down sith isnt really all that great.

So we're really supposed to take it that the entirety of the OR during Bane's era was utter garbage? The Dark Side as a whole was weakened due to the Brotherhood, but there's no question that the portrayals of combat and the descriptions show many of them to be quite formidable. Kas'im specifically was of note and whatever weaknesses people want to try and project onto the OR as a whole, those who survive for years in an ongoing front lines war are without question of great skill.

Obi-Wan was good at defense without question, but I don't see him taking Kas'im. He took Grevious because Grevious had only sabers to aid, no use of the Force for enhancement, precog, or extra offense. Again, it's only speculation but from the descriptions I really don't see Kas'im having any issue taking down the MagnaGuards with Electrostaves the way Obi-Wan did.

I will say this, however: like Anakin, Kas'im may fall through his own arrogance, sensing that Obi-Wan is weaker in the Force. Further, noting that Obi-Wan fights almost purely defensively, despite his knowledge of Soresu's potential, he might think the battle is over before it begins. Bane may not have been at his peak just yet when he fought Kas'im, but his power was enough to cower almost all the other Sith, and for Kas'im to have gone so boldly with plans to kill him if he was unwilling to return to the Brotherhood there's no doubt that he must have thought even then that his total prowess was enough to win the day. I say that to infer that though we don't get a full picture of Kas'im's ability, he was indeed more than a threat for any but the most capable duelists and had a worthy knowledge of the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
Since when Mastery of all Forms is the deciding factor?
Sidious mastered all Forms. Yet, Windu who mastered only 1 Form defeated him. Yet, Yoda who Mastered only 1 Form had no problem fighting him. Yet, Luke who didn't master a single Form outskilled him.

The same Ka'sim was the one getting out dueled until he switched to Jarkai.

Not to mention Cin Drallig...

Mace mastered multiple forms (necessity to master from 7) and the latest clone war sources state that Yoda mastered every form.

That aside your point is a completely valid one.

Originally posted by Nephthys




In my opinion this is clearly non-canon. Grievious doesn't strike 20 times in the entire duel, never mind ramping up from 12 strikes.

By that reasoning Mace and Sidious only moved as fast as Samuel L and Ian McDiarmid.

No, since that doesn't directly contradict the movie and Mr Chee has said that speeds in the films are not contradictory with the EU. In this case we have a clear contradiction with the novels description.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, since that doesn't directly contradict the movie and Mr Chee has said that speeds in the films are not contradictory with the EU. In this case we have a clear contradiction with the novels description.

It's exactly the same thing for both examples. When the heck did Sidious do dozens of strikes in seconds in the movie??

Grievous and Sidious both moved a hell of a lot faster in the novels than they did in the movies.

And as you pointed out, Mr. Chee says the Eu description of speed is the correct one.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
So we're really supposed to take it that the entirety of the OR during Bane's era was utter garbage? The Dark Side as a whole was weakened due to the Brotherhood, but there's no question that the portrayals of combat and the descriptions show many of them to be quite formidable.

Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness was the last organized threat from the Sith Order that had long since crumbled. The power of the Dark Side was diminished. Bane mentions how he learned more about the true nature of the Dark Side from the Holocron in a few short weeks time than all the time he spent at the Academy - he then calls Revan a true Sith Lord, unlike his phony contemporaries.

Raptor is right - Kas'im is the top swordsman of a weakened Sith Order. Plus, he lacks feats to back the true extent of his abilities. His prowess is mentioned by word-of-mouth through Bane. But we know that Bane was still in training (so of course he would find his Battlemaster to be impressive), and Kas'im just the best out of those Bane had seen thus far (which was a weakened Sith Order).




Except Kas'im spent much of the war training students at Korriban as Blademaster, not battling on the front lines.

However, what you did say applies to Obi-Wan. He walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire in countless battles in variant conditions throughout the Clone Wars. And he dueled many powerful individuals during his time. This was also during the era that George Lucas called the 'Golden Age' of lightsaber combat in the Jedi Order. There were many powerhouses during this time, unlike Bane's.




How can you assume that though? What has Kas'im shown to be more impressive than Kenobi? Kas'im was a very good swordsman, no doubt, but there's nothing to indicate that achieved he Kenobi's mastery of Soresu in any of the forms. In fact, Bane basically owned Kas'im during their fight, despite the Twi'lek being someone who has practiced honing his skills for decades.




Sure, advantage: Kenobi. Also, what proof is there that Kas'im is stronger in the Force than Kenobi?



How Kas'im perceived himself doesn't matter. In the end, he was the one who got owned by Bane. And if he didn't pull out the Jar'Kai, he would have lost badly. As for the inference, sure, Kas'im is likely very good, but to extend that to saying he has the ability to defeat Kenobi in a lightsaber contest is going too far.


Everything Raptor said is correct.

To Ascendancy- well they're not complete garbage, they could probably kick my ass, but in the grand scheme of things compared to dozens and dozens of top tier characters throughout the eras they pretty much were garbage. For the Sith, with the exception of Bane and latter Zannah who would u say isnt? Kas'im was at the top of that garbage pile I'll give u that, but we saw how far above him Bane was in skill and power when he completly dominated him in the first half of the fight. It's not like it was close or they were going back and forth, Kas'im was getting simply dominated. If Bane didn't pause to savor his victory he could have killed him before he even went dual wield and kas'im knew it, and this was the weakest and least experienced version of Bane.

Kas'im very well could have beaten the magna guards easier, but on the other hand I don't see him surviving as long against Anakin on mustafar as obi-wan did never mind beating him, nor do I see him stalemating Vader on the death star for as long as obi-wan did.

Why do you people keep on ignoring the fact Bane was only beating Kas'im because he memoriesed all his moves to point where he could cancel all of them, and then just use his superior force strenght to beat him down?

You make out like Bane was weak when even at this stage he could already use force storm and forcw wave, and was able to destroy a temple with TK, and then he had ADDED and MASSIVE advantage of knowing all of kas'im's moves inside out.

Also quit acting like our entire argument is Kas'im being best of the era's sith, that is not our argument, it is that he mastered all those forms and tanked a temple destroying attack, so it doesnt matter if his order was weak, as he was the exception and would be elite in any era.

Also, KV your bias is showing because you keep on acting like Kas'im has to prove himself to be on Obi-Wan level, and then just dismissing everyones points.

You keep comparing Kas'im to lightsaber instructors who have not mastered all of the 9 forms, or displayed close to his force prowess. Obi-Wan is beaten in skill and in power in this matchup buddy.

AND: if you want RW example of high level mastery of everything beating higher level mastery of just one thing, just look at MMA. Skilled wrestler, Jutsuka, and striker will defeat more skilled striker, he will grapplefck him, he will defeat more skilled wrestler, he will submit him, and he will defeat more skilled jitsuka, he will keep the fight standing. Mastery of everything give you greater freedom to dictate how the fight will play out and exploit weaknesses in opponent.

There is a reaosn pill is 7-3 and it is because your argument convince noone.

Here I thought things like strengt, speed, durability, endurance etc... were factors in a fight. Know I know its just how many styles u know. Why do they even bother to fight, why dont they just list what styles they have mastered and decide the winner like that. How did someone like randy coutoure win so many fights against people who knew far more styles than him. He was just a wrestler with some stand up training late in life. Could it be that his mastery and superiority in his 1 style, wrestling, was to such an extant that it allowed him to beat opponents who knew far more styles.

Iirc, Bane "destroyed a temple" by destroying one single support pillar, which brought the entire building down. It's hard to take arguments seriously when the individuals making them purposefully exaggerate feats.

As well, KV's point regarding Cin Drallig is the most valid point I've seen in this thread thus far. The man was a master of every form- hence why he is the Jedi's weapon master. That didn't stop him from getting effortlessly tooled by Anakin, who was only fighting him with one hand, and who is a master of only one form.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Iirc, Bane "destroyed a temple" by destroying one single support pillar, which brought the entire building down. It's hard to take arguments seriously when the individuals making them purposefully exaggerate feats.

As well, KV's point regarding Cin Drallig is the most valid point I've seen in this thread thus far. The man was a master of every form- hence why he is the Jedi's weapon master. That didn't stop him from getting effortlessly tooled by Anakin, who was only fighting him with one hand, and who is a master of only one form.

1. Prove that Cin Drallig mastered every style, please.

2. Anakin is far more powerful in the Force than Cin Drallig, an advantage Obi-Wam does not have over Kas'im.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Iirc, Bane "destroyed a temple" by destroying one single support pillar, which brought the entire building down. It's hard to take arguments seriously when the individuals making them purposefully exaggerate feats.

You do not rc:

'There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Bane watched the spectacle of the Temple's implosion from the safety of the ground at the foot of the stairs. Billowing clouds of dust rolled out from the wreckage and down the stairs toward him. Exhausted by the long lightsaber battle and drained by the sudden unleashing of the Force, he simply lay there until he was covered in a layer of fine white powder.'

Furthermore, there are no support pillars at the temple entrance:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/f/fe/Unkwld_temple.jpg

Originally posted by Raptor22
Here I thought things like strengt, speed, durability, endurance etc... were factors in a fight. Know I know its just how many styles u know. Why do they even bother to fight, why dont they just list what styles they have mastered and decide the winner like that. How did someone like randy coutoure win so many fights against people who knew far more styles than him. He was just a wrestler with some stand up training late in life. Could it be that his mastery and superiority in his 1 style, wrestling, was to such an extant that it allowed him to beat opponents who knew far more styles.

Actually Randy had background in both striking (boxing) and wrestling, in his first fight with Chuck Liddell he was winning the standup, and he also outboxed Tim Sylvia who was a striker, hell even when he was at end of career he tagged Machida a few times which is incredibly hard thing to do.

Randy's bets skill was his wrestling, but he did have the boxing background, and he trained constantly on his Jits, If he was just a wrestler, he would have been submitted with ease against any Jitsuka he takes down, or flat out destroyed against any striker with TDD and good clinch work.

Wrestling is also by far the most important aspect of MMA as well btw, you really want to argue that Soresu has same advantage?

Fightsaber states that Drallig mastered every form except for Vapaad.

Considering Anakin killed Drallig by overwhelming him with his lightsaber skills and cutting him in ****ing half, that's irrelevant. Nice cop-out attempt though.

So we've established that Kas'im being a master of multiple forms does not give him a win over someone who is not, with Drallig as the shining example. Debate's pver- Kenobi rolls him.

But a more powerful Force User can defeat a more skilled lightsaber user even in lightsaber battle, hence because of their improved strenght, speed, stamina, reflex etc. This can certainly be case between Anakin and Cin Drallig, but Obi-Wan does not possess this advantage over Kas'im.

I get impression Fightsaber says no such thing, hence you saying earlier that it was because he was jedi instructor.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You do not rc:

'There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.


Looks like I was right.

Did you see how big the temple is? That is still very impressive.

Because Bane's Force Wave was sufficient to shake the foundations of the temple? Lol. You said he destroyed on single pillar that brought down the rest of the temple, so how exactly does that quote make you 'right'?

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
This can certainly be case between Anakin and Cin Drallig,Prove that it was, or admit that you're frantically trying to backpeddle if you can't.

You get that impression because it proves you wrong. Feel free to look it up yourself in Wookie or just download it if you doubt me. I've provided you the source.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Bane's Force Wave was sufficient to shake the foundations of the temple? Lol. You said he destroyed on single pillar that brought down the rest of the temple, so how exactly does that quote make you 'right'? Because he destroyed the support structure, not the building itself, which is what I said. Do you know what a a "building foundation is"?

It's a moot point. Lehon was more powerful in the Force than even Korriban; neither Bane nor Kas'im's feats on such a world can be considered typical of their standard skill set.

Shut up, you mongrel.

I shall not be silenced uhuh

I will sodomize you. uhuh

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Because he destroyed the support structure, not the building itself, which is what I said. Do you know what a a "building foundation is"?

He shook the foundations, nowhere does it say he destroyed them. The destruction is very clearly spelled out to us: First the archway was obliterated and then the roof and rest of the temple imploded upon itself.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He shook the foundations, nowhere does it say he destroyed them. That makes the feat look even more pathetic, because that would mean that he didn't even destroy the temple, it just collapsed under its own, old weight after he shook it.

Thanks?

When did the feat look pathetic in the first place? I wasn't aware that blowing up buildings was a sneer-worthy feat in the mythos.

He demolished the building with the force of his Wave. His wave was enough to shatter the entire building and destroy it. Nowhere does it say that the building collapsed under its own weight, the text very clearly attributes the buildings destruction to Bane's Force Wave which I remind you, had enough force to liquify Kas'ims bones with only a fraction of the Wave and shake the very foundations of the temple. If you'll recall from Kotor, the temple continues far underground. I'm really not seeing how this is a 'pathetic' feat or how anyone is purposefully exaggerating the feat. Bane destroyed the temple and that is all anyone has claimed.

Blax is right: the Temple's implosion is a sign of compromised structural integrity. All Bane need do is weaken the essential support just enough and allow the temple's weight to do the rest.

Coupled with the fact that this is on Lehon, a location extraordinarily powerful in the Force, the feat isn't all that impressive.

Oh really? Where exactly is that stated Tempest? Please, point it out to me. I'm very interested in where the evidence for this 'compromised structural integrity' can be found.

I must say, its very hard to take peoples argument seriously when they're purposefully downplaying a feat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh really? Where exactly is that stated Tempest? Please, point it out to me. I'm very interested in where the evidence for this 'compromised structural integrity' can be found.

The fact that the temple imploded rather than disintegrate, scatter, topple?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I must say, its very hard to take peoples argument seriously when they're purposefully downplaying a feat.

Well thank God you're above all that.

facepalm

For your erudition.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The fact that the temple imploded rather than disintegrate, scatter, topple?

And so did the archway, which was very clearly described as being shattered by Bane's Force Wave. It collapsed and fell on top of Kas'im. Was that structural weakness too?

Recall that 'the rest of the roof' collapsed, meaning all of the roof. Given the sheer size and shape of the temple and that it has multiple floors, deep, strong foundations and support in the way of rooms and therefore, walls inside the temple, this means that every support for the temples roof must have been simultaneously destroyed by Bane's Wave. Why is this feat so unimpressive again?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And so did the archway, which was very clearly described as being shattered by Bane's Force Wave. It collapsed and fell on top of Kas'im. Was that structural weakness too?

Recall that 'the rest of the roof' collapsed, meaning all of the roof. Given the sheer size and shape of the temple and that it has multiple floors, deep, strong foundations and support in the way of rooms and therefore, walls inside the temple, this means that every support for the temples roof must have been simultaneously destroyed by Bane's Wave.

no



This is the sequence of events: (1) the wave rocked the Temple's foundations, (2) the walls exploded, (3) the archway collapsed, (4) the roof caved in, (5) the temple imploded.

Bane's disruption of the foundations is what caused all of it. It shook, destroying the walls and collapsing the archway, followed by the roof. The structural support was compromised by the building's wobbling, not unlike an earthquake. Weight and gravity conspired to do the rest.

If it had been destroyed by Bane's wave in the way you mean it, the building would have toppled back from the force he applied, rather like if I shove you to the ground. Instead, the text clearly says it imploded.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why is this feat so unimpressive again?

Because compromising a building's structural integrity and it imploding is a far cry from scattering it to the four winds. Especially on a world extremely powerful in the Force.

It's all relative, of course. What he did is more impressive than, say, Luke snatching his lightsaber from the snow on Hoth in The Empire Strikes Back.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Why do you people keep on ignoring the fact Bane was only beating Kas'im because he memoriesed all his moves to point where he could cancel all of them, and then just use his superior force strenght to beat him down?

That just makes Kas'im even more pitiful.

According to you, Kas'im is this incredible fighter. As such, he should be someone with significant experience in dueling. He should be someone with a vast array of moves and techniques. He should be someone who isn't formulaic with his moves, but rather versatile. Naturally, he should be someone who can outsmart his opponents even if they are familiar with his techniques.

Except, all of that was proven wrong in his fight against Bane. If Bane can recognize all of Kas'im's moves within several weeks of sparring, then that just displays Kas'im's limited scope. Furthermore, if Kas'im was versatile, rather than formulaic, he would have performed variant combinations of his moves to break down Bane's defenses. After all, that's what you would expect from someone considered to be one of the 'greatest' swordsman.




As Tempest has said, they were both on Lehon and their Force powers were amplified. Also, the impressiveness of the very feat seems to now be under debate. Furthermore, I've already argued how putting up a Shield outside-of-blazing-fast-combat isn't as impressive as defending TK waves during blazing-fast-combat (Kenobi's stalemate against Anakin's insane raw power).

Secondly, if Kas'im possessed such impressive Force powers, why didn't he kill Bane when Bane landed precariously on the staircase? If Kas'im had such vaunted Force command, his TK should have been powerful enough to have slammed Bane to the ground and prevent him from even having the chance to "cocoon himself in the Force."

Finally, this battle will be a lightsabers-only contest, and both guys will use the Force in this manner.



Except, your entire argument is that one subjective passage from Bane's POV, and Kas'im's Force Shield. That's it. Everything else is just you speculating.



Until you provide new evidence, you have nothing demonstrating Kas'im can contend with Kenobi.




The others have already argued against this.


Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
There is a reaosn pill is 7-3 and it is because your argument convince noone.



You realize the poll was like that before I even started seriously arguing in this thread. People have this skewed impression of Kas'im as someone who is the shit (see Raptor's earlier post). Yet, when you actually go back and check him out, you see that he absolutely nothing that can quantify him as being on the level of Obi-Wan beyond speculation and an opinion by an in-universe character.

In fact, recent responses suggest that more people seem to now be saying that Kenobi wins after all.

Let's not indulge in arguments by consensus; it happens too much around here as is.

For my take, I'm not saying Kas'im loses, but his showings against Bane on Lehon are suspect given the world's strength with the dark side.

Nephthys is spot on peoples' biases and fanboyism is really starting to show. No matter how it was doen the temple is absolutely massive and goes very far underground as Nephyths ovserved, to shake them is veyr impressive.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Prove that it was, or admit that you're frantically trying to backpeddle if you can't.

Not how it works bro you is the one trying to compare Kas'im-Knobi to Cin Drallig-Anakin, prove that the same scenario applies please.



I do doubt you amd you have not even provided quote, plus wookie is not canon.

Neither do I. But he resorted to saying my entire argument was discredited by the poll count, and I felt compelled to shut him down on that.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Let's not indulge in arguments by consensus; it happens too much around here as is.

For my take, I'm not saying Kas'im loses, but his showings against Bane on Lehon are suspect given the world's strength with the dark side.

It really not very strong. It is not exactly nexus or anything.

Are you kidding?

"The Unknown World was a place strong in the Force."

"The dark side was strong here, so strong it made him feel light-headed."

"The dark side is strong here. Far stronger than it ever was on Korriban."

Originally posted by -kV-
Are you kidding?

"The Unknown World was a place strong in the Force."

"The dark side was strong here, so strong it made him feel light-headed."

"The dark side is strong here. Far stronger than it ever was on Korriban."

He has a point.

A dark side nexus is defined as "any unusual localization of dark side energy" (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). Why would a planet unusually strong in the dark side qualify?

Originally posted by -kV-
That just makes Kas'im even more pitiful.

According to you, Kas'im is this incredible fighter. As such, he should be someone with significant experience in dueling. He should be someone with a vast array of moves and techniques. He should be someone who isn't formulaic with his moves, but rather versatile. Naturally, he should be someone who can outsmart his opponents even if they are familiar with his techniques.

Great example of your biasness, always trying to dismiss Kas'im's feats.

Kas'im does have vast array of moves and techniques, problem is Bane had spent hours training with him and knew eveyrhting he had to offer, it easier said than done to outsmart somebody like bane, and once he knows all his moves then it no longer about tehcnique, it about power and bane is simply much mire powerful, end of story.



Who says it was just weeks? They spent months training together, and the book states that he had memories millions of his moves and sequences so it not limited in scope as you say.

He knew all of Kas'im's moves under those stules bro, if it wasnt part of that repertoire than it was not proper technique, why would kas'im use improper moves?



I call bullshit.



Legend already shut this down bro. Its more impressive, seeing as Bane had time to power up his attack. Anakin had great potential but at the time he was nevery veyr powerful at all.



Because people of that era already have prelinimary defene put up before entering a duel, its something Kas'im taught them to do.



It is you who is speculating.





Again your biasness is showing. Kas'im does not need to prove he is on Kenobi's level, it is the other way round bro.




Raptor? I shot him down immediately.




Compelte lies.

Lehon was strong in the Force. And the temple itself was concentrated in the Dark Side.

"Bane leapt down from his mount, all his attention focused on the structure towering before him...

He took a trembling step forward before stopping short. He shook his head to clear it. The dark side was strong here, so strong it made him feel light-headed. That meant this was a place of danger; he couldn't afford to be wandering around in a stupor.

According to the accounts he'd read in the archives, the Temple had once been protected by a powerful energy shield, one that required an entire Rakatan tribe-of which each individual had been a powerful Force-user-to bring it down. He didn't sense any such barrier, but only a fool would proceed without caution."


Anyway, Lehon being a Dark Side nexus doesn't even matter. Kenobi still wins this fight.

So, he shook the foundations, then structural weakness cause the walls to first explode outward, then everything else collapsed inward? I've never seen a lack of structural integrity cause an outward explosion of a structure. During earthquakes, buildings collapse inward. During intentional demolitions, buildings collapse inward.

The only way the walls could explode outward is if some kind of force such as, I don't know, A MASSIVE FORCE WAVE concussed them and blew them outward.

It's very clear that again certain people want to downplay everything done by any Force user that they don't favor. The fact is considering even moving certain slabs within the temple to access the inner rooms required expenditure of Dark Side energy it's ridiculous to think that simply blowing out an area in the front entry would be sufficient to collapse the entire structure. Despite any foolishness to the contrary the very text itself makes clear that the Force Wave, augmented by the Dark Side energy there or not, utterly ruined the edifice.

Originally posted by -kV-
Are you kidding?

"The Unknown World was a place strong in the Force."

"The dark side was strong here, so strong it made him feel light-headed."

"The dark side is strong here. Far stronger than it ever was on Korriban."

Isn;t any planet strong in the Force really these days?

You guys are trying way too hard to dismiss this, being on a world strong in the force does not magically make you so much more powerful than other places. Most of Obi-Wan;s feats take place on places like Coruscant which are very strong in the Force too.

Amd if you want to play that card, I will just point out by your own arguments that darkside was weaker during that era. So going by your logic we should also scale their powers up, seeing as this is on neutral terriotry. So ultimately we arrive at same conclusion.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
It's very clear that again certain people want to downplay everything done by any Force user that they don't favor.

Compeltely true.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
no



This is the sequence of events: (1) the wave rocked the Temple's foundations, (2) the walls exploded, (3) the archway collapsed, (4) the roof caved in, (5) the temple imploded.

Ok, this is clearly wrong and all it takes is some common sense to see it. You are confusing the order in which the descriptions are written as being the chronological sequence of events. This is not the case. Banes Force Wave would hit the archway and walls before anything else since they are the things he was aiming at and the part of the temple closest to him. We know that it is Banes wave that destroyed this areas because they're described as 'exploding' and being reduced to a 'shower of stones'. The walls would not 'explode' if it was merely structural weakness or some shaking, only an impact would cause that. Furthermore, the walls exploding are linked in the text to be a result of Kas'im being unable to shield the temple 'around him.'

Now the text indicates that the rest of the roof follows the front of the temple 'a second later'. Now I'm no expert on shockwaves (and neither are you), but I'd bet my bottom buck that the shockwave wouldn't reach the foundations and cause that degree of damage in that little amount of time, especially travelling through frigging stone, which isn't exactly known for its ability to allow energy to flow through it. Unless there specific damage to the support, something doesn't collapse under its own weight that swiftly, especially not when theres so many things holding it up, distributing the weight so well, as in the case of the Lehon temple. So whats more likely to have happened is that the shockwave reached the bottom at about the same time as the roof began to collapse. Either way, its highly illogical that the shockwave is the cause of the temples destruction.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Bane's disruption of the foundations is what caused all of it. It shook, destroying the walls and collapsing the archway, followed by the roof. The structural support was compromised by the building's wobbling, not unlike an earthquake. Weight and gravity conspired to do the rest.

This is nothing but your own interpretation, which as I have shown is illogical and fallacious. You are making assumptions that are not shown inside the text, twisting the sentences to fit into your interpretation. The text only says that the foundations 'shook', not that they were weakened or destroyed in any way. Nowhere is the temple shaking linked to the temples destruction. There is absolutely no mention of the buildings structure or of the building collapsing in and on itself due to its own weight. The only thing indicating that, is you. Whats in the text, is Bane's Force Wave. There is no evidence of anything but the Force Wave destroying the temple. Anything else, is nothing but empty speculation.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If it had been destroyed by Bane's wave in the way you mean it, the building would have toppled back from the force he applied, rather like if I shove you to the ground. Instead, the text clearly says it imploded.

As I said, look at the shape of the temple. It is a round building, there is no way that it can topple backwards. You can't shove it to the ground like you would me because it is not standing on legs like I am. This case would be like if I lay down and then you shoved me. Would I topple backwards? No, my weight is evenly distributed in this case, all you could do would be to push me backwards. In the case of the temple this would not occur because the structure is fused to the ground via the foundations. The walls would shatter and the building would collapse before you could push it backwards. Sound familiar? What the building would not to is 'wobble'. There is not enough vertical structure to wobble and stone would sooner shatter than wobble. So, that makes no sense whatsoever. The only vertical part of the building is the middle part, which Bane's Wave is never mentioned as hitting and even if it did, because of the angle the wave would hit it at, it would still only collapse, not topple over. Even if it did topple over, its not tall enough to clear the roof beneath it. It can only collapse back into the rest of the structure.

Duuuuuurrrrrr!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because compromising a building's structural integrity and it imploding is a far cry from scattering it to the four winds. Especially on a world extremely powerful in the Force.

The wave still had enough force for a mere fraction of it to be capable to pulping flesh and shattering every bone in Kas'im's body. And whatever you say, Bane's Wave destroyed the temple. It is still a legitimate case of Bane destroying a building with the Force, which last I checked is still a very high-end display of telekinesis.

As for being on Lehon, given that Bane becomes more powerful at later points, vastly increases his Force Mastery and gains access to the orbalisks which increase his power and that he was at the time 'Exhausted by the long lightsaber battle', it would be highly disingenuous to suggest that under more favorable conditions he could not replicate the feat.

I'll crush you later.

You will try.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/05/18/pt_rots_1905_ent-lead__200x122.jpg

That's what Anakin said to Obi-Wan.

Who left him mutilated and on fire.

Yeah, but its a cool line.

You can't be cool and be on fire.

Clearly you've never been hit in the face by a +5 Greatsword of Coldfire.

I've been hit in the face by plenty of things. Never that.

But you have been hit in the face by my +5 (inches) Greatsword of Buttfire iirc. awepedo

I dont get it

i cockslapped you with my huge cock

that is the joke

is it a joke of its true

OneofMortis is true and he is a complete joke so I guess so.

Before I begin, please note that I've read your 4 part post and a few from the past page, as well. But the bulk of that material has been in response to rather haphazard presentation of possible pro-Sith points. If you feel that I've repeated something you’ve addressed, you may quote yourself. However, I feel that in whole, the arguments in Kas'im's favor are more powerful than the board's established consensus about Kenobi's abilities. (Note: this does not mean that I am closed to the possibility of such an argument in favor of Kenobi, just that without a novel approach to his defense, I'm disinclined to side with the Jedi in this case.)

My line of thought was fairly straightforward. Neither combatant is known for attacking with the Force, so flashy attacks will not decide the day. As Masters of their orders their metaphysical abilities cannot be disregarded. So the second point of focus must be on passive usage of the Force. My intuition is that the two are roughly even in this area, due to a specific interaction of their fighting styles. Finally, a decision about deadliness will boil down to technical mastery of the blade. In my eyes, at least, Kas'im has the advantage here. I admit that this is a subjective call, but it seems to me that for these discussions to be valuable at all requires that we attempt to understand one anothers' mode of thought first, before attempting to find flaws. Here, then, are my grounds for voting Kas'im in the poll.

First, the battle is most likely not going to resemble Yoda/Dooku in AotC. Neither is an ostentatious user of the Force. Kas'im has only been noted to blow open a "heavy door" with telekinesis and push his opponent down some stairs. Attacking with powers is not part of his combat style. Kenobi is a Jedi, who make a point not to use the Force as a weapon. Even in the Clone Wars series, I've only ever seen Kenobi use his telekinesis as a last-minute defensive tool to get himself out of corners. Meanwhile, Kas'im's defense has defended against a Force wave of sufficient strength to destroy an ancient temple. So Kas'im's offensive capabilities are either minimal or unsubstantiated while his defense is more than sufficient for the unlikely event of an attack from Kenobi.

Notably, the Force is at its most powerful when not being used to propel bricks. Instead, a gentle nudge of awareness, or the sharpening of reflexes can alter the flow of history, and certainly an armed conflict. Both combatants have access to this buff; even untrained users (like Anakin or Des) experience brief flashes of precognition. Precog plays a much larger part in duels than mere physique. However, this is another area where strength can be overridden by skill. Kas'im explains to Bane exactly why he emphasizes technical proficiency so forcefully:

Kas'im himself designed these sequences, "carefully choreographed series of multiple strikes and parries drawn from chosen style(s)" for all of the existent lightsaber forms for many different types of weapon: saber, staff, and whip, along with every other weapon-type used by any Sith Student in the era. A general knowledge of weapons and forms is probably shared by most masters whose students choose a fighting style alien to their specialty. However, because of Drew's very strange formalization of lightsaber combat, Kas'im has essentially recreated or distilled all seven styles for all types of weapons. He is the originator of lightsaber combat as it is practiced in the era. More to the point, he is "beyond" such tricks:

Kas'im commends Bane on moving beyond rote repetition of his methods, indicating that Kas'im himself is beyond that level in all of the areas where those methods are used, to wit, all seven forms of lightsaber combat. (Also, this confirms that there are actually mechanical differences between forms, as opposed to just varying philosophies.) This is valuable in fighting even non-sequence users: "So by studying different styles, I could negate that advantage?" Kas'im has done exactly that. In much the way that Bane has internalized his shortcuts and grasped the overall dynamics of a given form, Kas'im has internalized lightsaber combat as a whole. This does not make him invulnerable, but it certainly "frees up" his mind for the "battle of wills" that occupies the higher planes of the conflict.

Meanwhile, Kenobi's precognition is powerful. Possibly even uniquely good, he is described repeatedly (and poetically!) as attaining an unrivaled level of closeness with the Force. This is well chronicled in the Ep III novelization but I am not in charge of marshaling quotes for Kenobi. Suffice it to say that he is highly praised. However, this very openness to the Force is painted as something of a liability:

So even if Kenobi's precognition is particularly good, it faces a brand of Force usage that is specifically unhelpful to Jedi. Moreover, it faces a library of formal techniques that beggars other instructors as well as intuitive alternatives borne out of a creator's intimate understanding of the all possible forms involved in the fight. Thus, Kenobi's good precognition is more than matched by Kas'im's above average capacity available for "obscuring and confusing his enemy's own precognitive senses."

So the only possible decisive characteristic comes down to lightsaber technique. But Kenobi's mastery of alternate forms is not nearly as advanced as Kas'im's own. As I've quoted and explained repeatedly, Kas'im is the source for the entirety of his students' muscle-memory for all of the variants of weapons they use. Meanwhile, Kenobi's attempts to use other forms of combat are labeled as "laughable" by Dooku. This is not an area where I believe that inter-era comparisons are valuable; the individual combatants have objective levels of knowledge: one is innovating on all fronts, while the other is noteworthy in one, and passable in others. That decision is not tough.




I'd like to dip into the rest of the debate only briefly:
Bane has a prodigious learning-rate. He consumed Holocrons (noted to contain entire libraries' worth of knowledge) with extreme speed. For him to internalize the Magnificent’s combat style within a short apprenticeship (months upon months of training, according to the book) is not out-of character, and speaks to Bane's abilities rather than a shortcoming in Kas'im.

Additionally, I found your "math" to be a little specious; "the average shortest noticeable dark period" is 16 milliseconds according to the Wiki. Kas'im's blades are said to multiply in appearance while using Jar'Kai: "He seemed to wield six blades rather than two." So each blade (there are two of them) is moving to three different distinct places each 16 milliseconds. Not "sheets of plasma" but distinct blades. Thus, (6 strikes) per (.016 seconds) = 375 strikes per second. Using math on hyperbole is rarely a good idea.

http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/win_sector.jpg

You should post more often Zam.

Well this will be fun...I'll get to this tomorrow Zam. I have laboratory data to analyze currently.

Yeah - gotta go with Kas'im, here.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Jesus christ you some kind of crazed Obi-Wan fanboy?! He's really not all that great, very important character in saga, but average in the Force and never quite the top tier (e.g. Yoda etc) of saber combat.

As Zampano said, Kas'im is plot device with lightsaber, his main trait is that he is INCREDIBLE with a lightsaber, its who his character is bro. Obi-Wan is basically outclassed and outgunned. kekekekekeBwahhahhahahah! I like Obi Wan, but my favs are Dooku, Jinn and Quinlan Vos. Its just that I disagree with some statements about him, such as yours.

He was great enough to surve against Maul and vader, so I don't know why you say hes not great.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes mnat801, TheOneOfMortis is right! Qui-Gon was a force god! How else do you explain the way he ragdolled Maul all over the place?? Darth Power, I didn't complain about Jinn not being a force god, because I think he is one myself. I just disagree about him being higher ranked than Yoda overall.

Originally posted by mnat801
I like Obi Wan, but my favs are Dooku, Jinn and Quinlan Vos. Its just that I disagree with some statements about him, such as yours.

He was great enough to surve against Maul and vader, so I don't know why you say hes not great.
He only defeated Maul and Vader due to their own arrogance. He was definitely not the superior duelist.