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LotF Luke.

Dooku and Sidious, from their RotS incarnations - Dynasty of Evil Peak Bane.

The three Sith Lords battle against Luke, within the confines of Luke's Jedi Praxeum on Yavin IV.

Strict-Lightsaber duel - no offense powers used

Defensive; passive powers are allowed, such as Speed, TK (applied during movement) Precog, etc.

No Mindrape, offensive-TK or Sith/Emerald lightning, etc. You get the idea.

It is Dooku, Sidious and Bane against Luke - to the death.

Can Luke survive, or does the Sith team come out victorious?

I think if Luke is serious, and tries to knock Dooku and Sidious off as quickly as possible; he might have a good chance against Bane, when he's by himself.

^ Good point, but it will be incredibly difficult.
also, I'd say RotS Sids > DoE Bane, in every way

But seriously, I'm not sure if anyone can take this team down. Spite.

LotF Luke moves far faster than both Dooku and Sidious.

The only real challenge should be Bane.

This team can beat Luke imo.

RotS movie versions are heavily watered down compared to the books though. Iirc Luke and Jacen were fighting so fast even other Master level Jedi couldn't keep up with the fight. They only could guess what was going on because of the flashes of their sabers.

When was this? Their duel was in private and the only time I recall them fighting together was when they were using a Battle Meld.

Legacy of the Force right? I'm pretty sure they fought at one point and no one could keep up with what was going on.

I believe this was after Mara had gotten killed and Luke found out Jacen did it. They battled it out and both of them got banged up pretty bad. I believe the narration even mentioned they were beyond dueling, they were brawling at this point, throwing elbows and knees and everything else.

Finding the specific mention through nine books would be a monumental pain in the ass though.

They dueled in a private torture chamber with only Ben looking on. They only fought once too.

Originally posted by KingD19
LotF Luke moves far faster than both Dooku and Sidious.

The only real challenge should be Bane.
I'm not sure about 'far faster', but yes, Luke is the beast saber duelist here.

Also, I'd question Bane's dueling speed as being above RotS Sids for that matter.
His rain feat is the uberest, but he has never (to my knowledge) displayed such an astonishing speed in an actual duel. In DoE Zannah matched him, as I am told.

Still, Bane is amazingly fast, but not beyond what Palps or perhaps even Dooku can perform.

EDIT

Originally posted by KingD19
LotF Luke moves far faster than both Dooku and Sidious.

The only real challenge should be Bane.

Are you implying that Bane is vastly superior than RotS Sidious?

Anyway, team takes this.

Something already been explored: Bane likely gave Zannah chances to kill him, comparatively to his other opponents.

Another thing already been explored before: I believe there's been a few threads and discussions around here, where it's been highlighted that DoE Bane is superior to RotS Sidious - and quite possibly DE Sidious as well.

Again, the reason 90% of Debators understand that Bane's rain-feat makes him superior to Sidious, is because:

A: The speed, dexterity, reflex and agility needed to successfully dodge and block every raindrop in a pouring storm for ten minutes is monumental and ridiculous.

B: Both Dooku and Sidious (RotS and DE) have not been demonstrated to move with such speed and reflex.

So yeah, other than a few people around here, I was under the impression most people understood Bane was superior to Sidious.

Add to the fact that his other destructive abilities are, at least on par, with Sidious's anyway (other than his later DE Force Storm one, which is irrelevant, because it's ambiguous as to whether he can deploy it in close quarters and quickly, as well.)

Which, yes, does make Bane superior, at least significantly.

A few speed feats from ROT:

'Two of the assassins were stopped in their tracks, knocked to the ground as if they had run into an invisible wall. Two more, weaker and less able to defend themselves against Bane's power, were sent flying backward. Only the fifth was strong enough to resist the Sith Lord's throw and continue his charge.

However, without his brethren at his side to harry and distract his foe, he found himself the sole focus of Bane's wrath. Unable to defend against the savage sequence of lightsaber cuts and thrusts, he fell in a matter of seconds, half a dozen fatal wounds scored across his chest and face.'

Fatally wounding an opponent half a dozen times in a few seconds.

'She fell into a defensive posture as she so often had during their training sessions. But this was no drill, and her Master came at her with a speed and ferocity she had never faced before. Giving in to his orbalisk-fueled bloodrage, he was like a wild animal, raining savage blows down on her from all angles, the strikes coming so fast it seemed as if he wielded a dozen blades at the same time. Zannah fell into a full retreat, desperately giving ground beneath the overwhelming assault.'

Seeming to wield a dozen lightsabers at once.

'She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive.'

Defending against and reacting to an opponent who's so fast she seems to be at least 3 places at once.

Bane has some pretty great speed feats.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Another thing already been explored before: I believe there's been a few threads and discussions around here, where it's been highlighted that DoE Bane is superior to RotS Sidious - and quite possibly DE Sidious as well.

Originally posted by Rookwood
So yeah, other than a few people around here, I was under the impression most people understood Bane was superior to Sidious.

This is another textbook argument by consensus/appeal to the majority, patently fallacious reasoning.

There was a time here when the ancient Sith were touted as unquestionably supreme, when Nihilus was fodder for any respectable fighter, and when Bandon was leagues above Obi-Wan.

This fallacy and your reliance on it has been criticized by myself and Nephthys separately on multiple occasions and it doesn't change now.

The conclusion may be right (it isn't) but the basis for your support of it is hopelessly flawed.

No it's not, because such a consensus doesn't actually exist.

lol

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is another textbook argument by consensus/appeal to the majority, patently fallacious reasoning.

There was a time here when the ancient Sith were touted as unquestionably supreme, when Nihilus was fodder for any respectable fighter, and when Bandon was leagues above Obi-Wan.

This fallacy and your reliance on it has been criticized by myself and Nephthys separately on multiple occasions and it doesn't change now.

The conclusion may be right (it isn't) but the basis for your support of it is hopelessly flawed.

Well, regardless of whether many others agree with the viewpoint or not, it has logical merit.

As well as after a time, we came to find that:

1. The ancient Sith at the time were primarily unknowns, and some based their apparent power of off the use of talismans and rituals - not necessarily applicable in conventional combat.

2. Darth Nihilus, while an unknown in lightsaber-combat, held a power great enough to kill virtually any Force user, other than the Exile, (amongst other gargantuan abilities we realized he had) thereby turning the tables in the situation and making practically any Sith Lord, fodder for Nihilus.

3. People apparently built on the Badon part, though.

- But yeah, I'm not trying to say my point is right, just because many people may agree with it.

I know my point is correct, because it flows in accordance with Canon. And previous threads which put these theories to the test, were shown through and in accordance with other people, to be true.

That may or may not be true. But citing the consensus of others has zero "logical merit."



It's the only reason you've bothered to provide.



About Bane vis a vis Sidious? Actually, it doesn't. Every single source on the matter attributes greater power to the latter over the former.



And we're back to the fallacy. What other people said on the subject is completely irrelevant.

I cannot see anyone, even Luke offing someone like Dooku when he has teammates like Bane and Sidious supporting him. Also Sidious is> even DOE Bane imo.

Who agrees with you? Are you living in reality?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That may or may not be true. But citing the consensus of others has zero "logical merit."

That depends.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's the only reason you've bothered to provide.

I've cited other reasons earlier in this thread.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
About Bane vis a vis Sidious? Actually, it doesn't. Every single source on the matter attributes greater power to the latter over the former.

But we've found that isn't true.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
And we're back to the fallacy. What other people said on the subject is completely irrelevant.

That would be correct - if I were discussing their simply liking the idea.

I spoke of people putting the theories to the test and testing the validity of those theories for themselves.

So after testing these viewpoints for their validity, and finding Bane to be superior over Sidious, then it has logical merit.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Who agrees with you? Are you living in reality?
There have been.. other threads.

And the state of my sanity has no bearing on this debate.

It doesn't. There is no relationship between an argument's logical merit and the number of people who subscribe to that argument.



You cited a singular instance with Bane's display against rain.



We haven't. You believe it to be true because Bane deflected raindrops. That's your prerogative. Where you lose me, where you lose Nephthys and jadams3928 is when you allude to mysterious and unidentified others and appeal to consensus and authority (two separate fallacies) in one fell swoop.



And you've bothered to substantiate none of this. The argument is circuitous and pointless: You reference "others" who have tested pro-Bane viewpoints, one could reference "others" who have crafted meritable pro-Sidious viewpoints (or pro-anyone viewpoints, for that matter) and the discussion becomes a perpetual exchange of fallacies.

If that's not clear to you, I'm not sure how I can make it more so.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
I'm not sure about 'far faster', but yes, Luke is the beast saber duelist here.

Also, I'd question Bane's dueling speed as being above RotS Sids for that matter.
His rain feat is the uberest, but he has never (to my knowledge) displayed such an astonishing speed in an actual duel. In DoE Zannah matched him, as I am told.

Still, Bane is amazingly fast, but not beyond what Palps or perhaps even Dooku can perform.

Zannah never matched him in sabers. He was fast enough even when unarmed in the dungeon that he was able to dodge her blades sufficiently to escape. This is in a close corridor, mind you.

In saber to saber combat he defeated her both with and without orbalisks. She only defeated him in the end by forcing him to attempt to take her mind because he could not defend against her Force tendrils, but he beat her rather soundly in sabers every time. She was never his match there.

As to this thread, I see no way that LotF Luke takes this team solo. Jacen alone was a near thing, and Sidious, Dooku, and Bane as a unit would be more than enough for any single saber duelist that I can think of. Luke wasn't even able to hand Lumiya her head until their third all-out confrontation. His capabilities IMO were very strangely portrayed throughout the series, but regardless he never had a showing that makes him seem capable of surviving this duel.

Sounds like she beat him because he could not defend against her Force tendrils.

Originally posted by Eminence
Sounds like she beat him because he could not defend against her Force tendrils. lawl

Well if that shit doesn't sound familiar.

what the holy ****.

I opened the link, recognized it as anime, and promptly closed that shit.

I mean I thought they were going to say something funny. Also thought Luc was Blax.

Guess that's on me.

Lucien is the Canadian. The African currently operates under the handle of Tzeentch., which I am given to understand is a reference to some sort of figure from the grim darkness of the future....

I meant I thought he was Blax just now because of the anime shit. And the "lawl."

Blax's posts are often drowned out by the clanging of his massive African battlestaff against his kneecaps. I'm not sure how or why you'd mistake the two.

I thought Warhammer was like Starcraft, but apparently it has gods and magic and stuff.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It doesn't. There is no relationship between an argument's logical merit and the number of people who subscribe to that argument.

Not the number by itself, but if those people tested the validity of the theories for themselves, that could mean logical merit.


Originally posted by The_Tempest

You cited a singular instance with Bane's display against rain.

Correct - and we've yet to see Sidious or Dooku replicate a feat that would require such incredible speed, agility and stamina.


Originally posted by The_Tempest

We haven't. You believe it to be true because Bane deflected raindrops. That's your prerogative. Where you lose me, where you lose Nephthys and jadams3928 is when you allude to mysterious and unidentified others and appeal to consensus and authority (two separate fallacies) in one fell swoop.

Losing you and Nephthys in the argument is a tragedy, but jadams3928 is but a merry Retard, who plays upon the ground at his parent's feet, with his toys.

He could care less, since he's likely off, eating his own boogers. ( )



- But you and Nephthys on the other hand, I'd like you two to see my point of view. Though I have a feeling Nephthys already does.

Much of the rest of my referenced proof though, is actually on the other threads I had subtly eluded to.


Originally posted by The_Tempest

And you've bothered to substantiate none of this. The argument is circuitous and pointless: You reference "others" who have tested pro-Bane viewpoints, one could reference "others" who have crafted meritable pro-Sidious viewpoints (or pro-anyone viewpoints, for that matter) and the discussion becomes a perpetual exchange of fallacies.

If that's not clear to you, I'm not sure how I can make it more so.

Those others have made logical points, though.

I know it's not a numbers game; that's true. But the logical points others have made, in other threads besides this one, do hold merit.

The problem is that you presented this in the precise context of a numbers game: referencing an alleged consensus about Bane vis a vis Sidious that may or may not exist:





This line of thought is irretrievably errant. An argument by consensus is a logical fallacy and is completely meritless, with no exception.

Well, in a battle of sabers, obviously, while LOTF Luke is the best of the 4, he couldn't take Dooku, Bane, and Sidious at once. He would most definitely have to rely of Force Powers majorly for this battle. The trio's Force Powers together would probably be able to at least be the equivalent of Luke's.

While Luke puts up a great fight, I'm voting the trio to win.