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this is a fight to the death
i want to see in high tier characters in one piece can keep up with low tier humans in dbz when they are faster.
no water around

Poor Kizaru.

Plz tell me how?

Kizaru moved at light speed. I still cant see him winning though. He can't even hurt Tien.

Well the speed at which DBZ ki blasts moved is debatable, we know that they've reached the moon in mere seconds.

Well, how can kizaru hurt someone thats fast enough to turn intangible every time you try to attk. And its takes less energy to use df abilities where as ki is energy and you can run out. I think kizaru can outlast tien, but hurting tien would be the issue...

I give it to Kizaru since he can't be touched and his beams do pack a punch so I don't see Tien lasting long (if Tien gets hit by one of those beams that destroyed one of those large mangroves it'll hurt). I also think Kizaru DF won't effected by the DBZ powerlevel system, since his powers isn't a form a ki.

Tien blows up the area Kizaru is standing on.

Stalemate, unless Kizaru can actually hurt Tien somehow, I don't see any way though.

I want to point out one last thing. Since base Goku is stronger than Tien, he'll (tien) have a extremely difficult time fighting off the Admiral in a physically fight since Goku wasn't able to accomplish lifting 40 tons in his normal state. Tiens tuff, but I definately see him going down in this match.

Originally posted by dvampire
I give it to Kizaru since he can't be touched and his beams do pack a punch so I don't see Tien lasting long (if Tien gets hit by one of those beams that destroyed one of those large mangroves it'll hurt). I also think Kizaru DF won't effected by the DBZ powerlevel system, since his powers isn't a form a ki.

Tien's blasts should work just fine, supernatural attacks and willpower-based attacks can hurt logia.

And no, one of those blasts that hit the mangrove would *not* hurt Tien, he can and has handled much stronger ones.


Saying 'Kizaru DF won't effected by the DBZ powerlevel system, since his powers isn't a form a ki.' is silly, because the power is, well, power, it doesn't rely on ki, it works against fighters that don't use ki like androids or magic beings.


Tien also has some psychic and magic techniques. Not much, but he 's done telekinesis and the evil containment wave.

Originally posted by dvampire
I want to point out one last thing. Since base Goku is stronger than Tien, he'll (tien) have a extremely difficult time fighting off the Admiral in a physically fight since Goku wasn't able to accomplish lifting 40 tons in his normal state. Tiens tuff, but I definately see him going down in this match.

Yet in Dragonball, he was pushing a 600 ton boulder without much issue.

The 40 ton thing makes no sense he wasnt lifting it he was wearing it while hovering in the air so its completely different also its in other world so the gravity is unknown also its a gag scene and an outlier feat in the incredibly low end so its useless in a real debate where combat feats put the lifting and hitting power into the ridiculous highs

Lemme point out that while DBZ physical strength's precise limits aren't known, and it's relatively low in any case... it's also pretty irrelevant because the ki power is so very decisive.

Using the 40 tons scene as Goku's strength cap is lulz-worthy.

During his trip to Namek, Goku was training under 100G. Assuming Goku weighs around 200lbs, then that puts his weight /w/ 100G at 20,000lbs or 10 tons. Now, if Goku was wearing his training clothing, then that adds an additional 250lbs, which puts his gross weight at roughly 450lbs, and his 100G weight at 45,000lbs or 22.5 tons! Whether it was 10 tons or 22.5 tons, Goku, with a PL of 90,000, was able to move around in said gravity easily(he even commented on how effortless the training had become-- he wasn't even getting fatigued toward the end.) Fast-forward to the Cell Games, and Goku's PL (even in his base form) was in the tens-of-millions. By the time of the Buu saga, Goku (obviously) became several times more powerful still.... Yet he supposedly had trouble lifting 40 tons? Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

Heck, I'll even use Vegeta as an example: at the very end of the Frieza saga, base-level Vegeta(PL=4,000,000) was training under 300G. Assuming Vegeta also weighs around 200lbs, then that puts his weight /w/ 300G at 60,000lbs or 30 tons!

And like I said above: during the Cell saga alone, Vegeta's power increased several times over, yet Goku was still vastly more powerful. And by the time of the Buu saga(when he supposedly struggled to lift 40 tons), Goku's overall power had increased to epic proportions--- as had Vegeta's, but obviously to a lesser extent.

To recap: Buu-era Goku struggling to lift a mere 40 tons is utterly laughable and can swiftly be written off just by using a little common sense/logic.

Just in base form and non-powered up, which doesn't have all those tens of millions, and less well distributed than gravity does.



And almost killed by it! Also, his official weight is 123 lbs, so well below 30 tons.

Physical strength doesn't scale up at the same rate as power level. Vegeta in the millions had problem with not-all-that much more weight than Goku in the tens of thousands.

Originally posted by Q99
Just in base form and non-powered up, which doesn't have all those tens of millions, and less well distributed than gravity does. By the Cell Games, SSJ Goku's PL was in the billions. So yes, the PL of his base form had to have been in the tens-of-millions, whether you like it or not... And by the Buu-era, he was many times more powerful still, whether you like it or not.

Originally posted by Q99
And almost killed by it! In the anime filler, you mean! If we are going to use said filler, then I should point out that by the end of his training, base-level Vegeta(PL=4,000,000) was training in 450G for an extended period of time! And he was effortlessly doing so! What I mean is: his speed, even under that much gravity, still seemed quite significant, as he was able to faze in and out, etc.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEB1PLC3KZA
(2:12)

Did 450G tire him out? Sure. However, that much gravity was obviously very far from his max limit, given the speed he displayed.

Originally posted by Q99
Physical strength doesn't scale up at the same rate as power level. Vegeta in the millions had problem with not-all-that much more weight than Goku in the tens of thousands. That's Vegeta, though. After the Saiyan saga, he was never really comparable to Goku... He became the proverbial punching bag.

Also, where was it stated that Vegeta only weighs 123lbs? I know he's a little guy, but that still seems awfully light, given the amount of muscle mass he's got. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Also, where was it stated that Vegeta only weighs 123lbs? I know he's a little guy, but that still seems awfully light, given the amount of muscle mass he's got. /shrug

The "Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume," a sourcebook released by Shueisha a few years back.


It does strike me as a bit low due to the muscles, but not that far off. He should be well below 200.



That's the thing- it takes many times the power to handle moderately more weight.

450g still isn't that much weight. And that's over the entire body, his limbs are far far lighter than his total weight increase.




When they were in the same form they were fairly equal, Goku just had higher forms.

Goku only weighs 137 pounds, lol.

Originally posted by Q99
The "Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume," a sourcebook released by Shueisha a few years back.


It does strike me as a bit low due to the muscles, but not that far off. He should be well below 200. 160-180lbs seems a bit more logical. Does it state the timeframe in which he weighed that much? He would have weighed less in the Saiyan saga than he did in the Cell saga, for instance.

Originally posted by Q99
That's the thing- it takes many times the power to handle moderately more weight.

450g still isn't that much weight. And that's over the entire body, his limbs are far far lighter than his total weight increase. It is a lot of weight... And like I said: Vegeta could move around in 450G at such speeds that he was able to faze/disappear. Clearly his max weight limit would have been much higher than 450G.

Furthermore, while his arms may not have been bearing the entirety of that weight, his legs were(when he was training on the ground, of course.) And again: that was back when his base power was only 4,000,000. Buu-saga Goku's base PL would have been many, many times greater.

Logic dictates that his inability to lift 40 tons at base(10 tons with each extremity) is laughably ridiculous.

Originally posted by Q99
When they were in the same form they were fairly equal, Goku just had higher forms. During the Frieza saga, Vegeta was never remotely close to Goku's level. During the Cell saga, Vegeta spent 2 days/years in the time chamber, yet was still a LOT weaker than Goku, who'd spent less than a day/year in the chamber. During the Buu saga, Vegeta had to attain a 'Majin amp' just to put him on par with Goku.

So yeah, Vegeta was treated as fodder(relative to Goku) after the Saiyan saga.

Or it is a cartoon with an art style that isn't really that realistic and as such the official weight figures seem retarded.

Good point, no it does not.



I wouldn't consider it that much in this context.



90,000, 100gs is movable. 4,000,000, 450 for a much lighter person is moveable.

Legs are much stronger than arms, and importantly designed for supporting weights directly via bone. And arms weigh about ~5% of the body.


30 tons for a 200lbs weight on Vegeta- a very high-end estimate- of which maybe 5%, or in other words he was going around with maybe 1.5 tons per arm.

Go an order of magnitude past that and it'd be only 15 tons- still significantly less than the weights Goku put on.

Originally posted by Q99
30 tons for a 200lbs weight on Vegeta- a very high-end estimate- of which maybe 5%, or in other words he was going around with maybe 1.5 tons per arm.

Go an order of magnitude past that and it'd be only 15 tons- still significantly less than the weights Goku put on. We're getting into numbers, I like this!

We know Goku had one weight on each extremity, each weighing 10 tons a piece(40 tons total), and he was apparently unable to lift any of these weights as a base-level Saiyan. We know an average human arm accounts for about 5% of total body weight. Assuming Goku weighs in at 200lbs, that means each of his arms weigh about 10lbs.

Even if we assume Vegeta also weighed 200lbs at the end of the Frieza saga, that means each of his arms would've weighed about 2.2 tons under 450G(10*450/2,000=2.25 tons). And with a PL of 4,000,000 he had no problem whatsoever moving around at high-level speeds in that environment. This means 450G wasn't remotely close to his max weight limit, but for the purposes of this discussion I suppose we are assuming that lifting 2.2 tons with each arm in normal gravity was his max.

Anyway, based on the above calculations, Goku would have to be about 4.6x more powerful than Vegeta in order to move freely with 10 tons of weight on each arm(2.2*4.6=10.1 tons.) This equates to a PL of 18,400,000(4,000,000*4.6=18,400,000.) Even if we only assume that FPSSJ Goku possessed a PL of 1 billion during the Cell Games(a vast underestimation, given that the guide I reference has him at 3 billion), then that still puts the PL of his base form at 20,000,000(1 billion/50=20,000,000.) Remember, it only needs to be 18.4 million. However, if we use the actual PL listed for him of 3 billion as a FPSSJ, then that puts Goku's base PL at 60,000,000(3 billion/50=60,000,000), which means that during the Cell Games his base power was 15x greater than Vegeta's was during the Frieza saga.

So yeah, as of the Cell Games base-level Goku should have logically been able to move around with 33 ton weights on each arm without much effort(15*2.2=33 tons)--- but even if we low-ball his PL tremendously, and reduce it by 2/3, a meager 10 tons on each arm would have STILL been an entirely inconsequential amount of weight for him during the Cell Games... Nevermind the Buu saga, when he was much, much more powerful. Point: Goku failing to lift 10 tons with one arm contradicts established facts/logic/common sense.

Heh, this made me start to think...

During GT, Goku was able to beat both Frieza and Cell as a base-level Saiyan. Actually the word "beat" doesn't give Goku enough credit--- he toyed with them like they were weak feebs. For Goku to toy with Cell, it means that his base PL must have been greater than 5 billion(assuming Cell possessed the same 'SSJ2-esque' power that he wielded during the Cell Games, of course.) I suppose that'd make sense given that Rildo was "more powerful than Majin Buu" and Goku was stalemating him as a base-level Saiyan.

Furthermore, after transforming into a SSJ1 in front of Rildo, he stated that Goku's power had increased "a hundred fold"(both of these statements were made in GT ep. 19.) So if Goku's PL was around 5 billion as a base Saiyan, that'd put his power as a SSJ1 at roughly 500 billion?! And if his PL doubled upon transforming like it did in Z, then that puts him at the 1 trillion mark as a SSJ2, and 4 trillion as a SSJ3?! Damn, imagine the PL of a SSJ4!

Also keep in mind that those figures are on the low-end!

Originally posted by Galan007
Furthermore, after transforming into a SSJ1 in front of Rildo, he stated that Goku's power had increased "a hundred fold"(both of these statements were made in GT ep. 19.) How does ssj1 increase him 100x when it's only a 50x increase. This is why GT isn't usable.

Originally posted by Kento
How does ssj1 increase him 100x when it's only a 50x increase. This is why GT isn't usable. It was a 50x increase in Z. Evidently the multipliers in GT were significantly greater. That's why the figures I referenced would be on the low-end, even though they're still massive.

Originally posted by Galan007
It was a 50x increase in Z. Evidently the multipliers in GT were significantly greater. That's why the figures I referenced would be on the low-end, even though they're still massive. So what would ssj2 be 4x, then 8x for ssj3? It makes no sense why the power up would change though, it's GT so I guess that's enough of a explanation.

I wonder if ssj4 Gokou's lifting of the city can be calculated, and then backtracked to find a better base level strength.

Originally posted by Kento
So what would ssj2 be 4x, then 8x for ssj3? It makes no sense why the power up would change though, it's GT so I guess that's enough of a explanation.

I wonder if ssj4 Gokou's lifting of the city can be calculated, and then backtracked to find a better base level strength. As crappy as GT was in general, most people don't realize how phucking powerful Goku (and by proxy, the major villains in GT) were. In fact, most people I've talked to believe GT Goku was a lot weaker than he was in Z--- when in fact he was literally hundredS of times more powerful in GT. As demonstrated: the GT multipliers were off the charts!

When did he lift a city? I don't remember off-hand. Either way, I think it'd be nearly impossible to accurately quantify that type of feat. /shrug

Nvm, just watched it (GT ep. 52.) It's really hard to see exactly how much he was lifting. I got the impression that he lifted a very large portion of the city, but admittedly it's nigh-impossible to tell for sure. He may have just lifted a tiny section.

But even if he only lifted a small part of the city, it would still equate to a very large amount of weight given the thickness of the earth he moved as well as the structures on top of it:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/14880456_Untitled.jpg

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/14880819_Untitled2.jpg
(He lifted the left half.)

did anyone say "kizaru shoots tien in the brain" yet?

if not, that

Tien's been dodging blasts of similar or greater speed since before Kizaru was invented.

Tien simply slaps Kizaru's blasts away. Or tanks 'em. Either way.

Originally posted by Galan007

So yeah, as of the Cell Games base-level Goku should have logically been able to move around with 33 ton weights on each arm without much effort(15*2.2=33 tons)--- but even if we low-ball his PL tremendously, and reduce it by 2/3, a meager 10 tons on each arm would have STILL been an entirely inconsequential amount of weight for him during the Cell Games... Nevermind the Buu saga, when he was much, much more powerful. Point: Goku failing to lift 10 tons with one arm contradicts established facts/logic/common sense.

Hm, well-reasoned. Seems right to me.


I will add that as it was in the otherworld, it could be like King Kai's planet and it's 10x gravity, meaning it was could actually be 100 tons or more.



According to the Deathbattle guys (who are pretty well-researched), SSJ2 is power x2 (so twice Full Power Super Saiyan), SSJ3 is x4 that, and finally SSJ4 is x10 SSJ3. Added all together, 4,000x his base power.

What the **** ever happened to using feats?

Tien wins.

Being the greatest fighter in DBZ history.

So phuck the rest of you.

Originally posted by NemeBro
What the **** ever happened to using feats?

They did. They used a lot of feats for Superman, and nothing but numbers for Goku.

I wasn't talking about Deathbattles, I am talking about in general. The powerscaling goofiness going on concerning DBZ around here lately.

And in that battle, if you want to go via a feat by feat comparison, Superman doesn't just win, it is no contest, lol. His strength, speed, and durability are off the charts.

Originally posted by Q99
According to the Deathbattle guys (who are pretty well-researched), SSJ2 is power x2 (so twice Full Power Super Saiyan), SSJ3 is x4 that, and finally SSJ4 is x10 SSJ3. Added all together, 4,000x his base power. It's not just according to the DeathBattle guys. It's according to the Daizenshuu. Well I don't know where the ssj4 multiplier comes from but the others are. I was just talking about the fact that in GT ssj is doubled what it's suppose to be so would the others also double.

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, well-reasoned. Seems right to me.


I will add that as it was in the otherworld, it could be like King Kai's planet and it's 10x gravity, meaning it was could actually be 100 tons or more.

Very true. If King Kai's planet possessed increased gravity, it makes sense that the training ground he selected for Goku in otherworld(was that Grand Kai's planet?) might have increased gravity as well.

Originally posted by NemeBro
What the **** ever happened to using feats? Feats were used.

-Goku effortlessly owned Cell and Frieza as a base-level Saiyan. That logically puts the PL of his base form in the billionS by default.

-Base-level Goku stalemated Rildo, who he stated was more powerful than Majin Buu. There is no reason to doubt the validity of Goku's statement, given that he can a.) very accurately sense a being's ki, and b.) has fought Majin Buu in the past. Why would he randomly tell Pan how powerful Rildo was if it weren't true?

-After Goku transformed into a SSJ, Rildo(who can also, very accurately, read a being's ki) stated that his power had increased "a hundred fold"(100x.) Given that SSJ Goku became much more powerful than base Rildo, more powerful than 2nd form Rildo, and nearly on par with 3rd form Rildo, I don't see any reason to question Rildo's power reading/assessment.

Having said that, since the SSJ1 multiplier doubled in GT (SSJ1 only gave Saiyans a 50x increase in Z), then it stands to reason that the multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 may have doubled as well. So instead of a 2x increase for a SSJ2, it may have been a 4x increase--- instead of a 4x increase for a SSJ3, it may have been an 8x increase.

If that is in fact the case, it'd mean that as a SSJ3 Goku would be roughly 3,200x more powerful than Majin Buu, since we know he was no less than equal to Buu as a base-level Saiyan. However, even if the SSJ2 and SSJ3 multipliers were still the same as they were in Z, then SSJ3 Goku would still be about 800x more powerful than Majin Buu.... And that's not even factoring in a SSJ4, which most DB aficionados believe is 10x more powerful than a SSJ3. Insane.

It depends on WHICH Buu Gokou is talking about how powerful that makes him. Cause telling Pan he is probably referring to Fat Buu who is the weakest Buu and got even weaker iirc when he became pure good.

Also people like to doubt Gokou saying Dabura is as strong as Cell for some reason.

Originally posted by Kento
It depends on WHICH Buu Gokou is talking about how powerful that makes him. Cause telling Pan he is probably referring to Fat Buu who is the weakest Buu and got even weaker iirc when he became pure good.

Also people like to doubt Gokou saying Dabura is as strong as Cell for some reason. Given that Goku specifically said Rildo was more powerful than MAJIN Buu(the word 'Majin' literally translates to demon/devil), I'm fairly confident that he was referencing Kid Buu. iirc, fat/good Buu was never called "Majin" Buu in GT--- that'd be an oxymoron. I think they either called him Buu or Mr. Buu.

I never got why people doubt what the Z fighters say--- especially when it's in reference to a being's PL. Those dudes were very good at sensing energy levels.

Originally posted by Galan007
Given that Goku specifically said Rildo was more powerful than MAJIN Buu(the word 'Majin' literally translates to demon/devil), I'm fairly confident that he was referencing Kid Buu. iirc, fat/good Buu was never called "Majin" Buu in GT--- that'd be an oxymoron. I think they either called him Buu or Mr. Buu.

I never got why people doubt what the Z fighters say--- especially when it's in reference to a being's PL. Those dudes were very good at sensing energy levels. There's really no way to know which, Super Buu, Kid Buu, Fat Buu. It could be either one. If it's Kid Buu then like 20 years he's gotten 400x stronger in base level. But then that also means Gohan who also gotten weaker over he 20 years is close enough to Kid Buu's level to not be completely owned at Base.

Originally posted by Kento
There's really no way to know which, Super Buu, Kid Buu, Fat Buu. It could be either one. If it's Kid Buu then like 20 years he's gotten 400x stronger in base level. But then that also means Gohan who also gotten weaker over he 20 years is close enough to Kid Buu's level to not be completely owned at Base. I'm confident he wasn't comparing Rildo to Fat/good Buu, for reasons I already mentioned. Additionally, given Uub's connection to Kid Buu, and the fact that Goku specifically used the term "Majin" Buu, I think more evidence than not points to Rildo being compared to Kid Buu. /shrug

Also, Mystic Gohan was vastly more powerful than Super Buu, who was vastly more powerful than Kid Buu. So it stands to reason that Gohan may have very well been able be able to contend with a Kid Buu-level being in GT, even if he'd gotten substantially weaker.

Originally posted by Galan007
Given that Goku specifically said Rildo was more powerful than MAJIN Buu(the word 'Majin' literally translates to demon/devil), I'm fairly confident that he was referencing Kid Buu. iirc, fat/good Buu was never called "Majin" Buu in GT--- that'd be an oxymoron. I think they either called him Buu or Mr. Buu.


The original Buu that Babidi brought out, when he was fat, was called Majin.

Originally posted by Q99
The original Buu that Babidi brought out, when he was fat, was called Majin.

Yeah, but the origian Buu that Bibidi created was also called Majin Buu. And Super Buuhan also reffered to himself as "The Mightiest Majin" so yeah... *Shrugs*

Originally posted by Q99
The original Buu that Babidi brought out, when he was fat, was called Majin. That version of Fat Buu still had his evil side, thus was likely on par Kid Buu. Heck, even after Fat Buu split from his evil side and lost "most of" of his power, his good side was still powerful enough to contend with Kid Buu for an extended period of time(much longer than he was able to contend with Evil Buu, at least), without being completely stomped.

Anyway, because Kid Buu was the most recent version of Buu that Goku had battled, and also factoring in that Uub was the reincarnation of Kid Buu, I'm fairly confident that Goku was gauging Rildo against Kid Buu in GT. However, even if you want to assume that Goku was using evil/Fat Buu as a comparison, that's still fine because he'd be very close to Kid Buu's level anyway. If you want to use the other versions of Buu whom were referred to by the "Majin" prefix(Super Buu and Buutenks, namely), that's also fine, because they were much more powerful than Fat Buu or Kid Buu.