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In the The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith, George Lucas, the creator and ultimate authority regarding the Star Wars universe, responded to the question of whether Mace Windu brought a weak group of Jedi with him for the confrontation with Palpatine by replying that "one would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine," and that if Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten the Emperor.
- The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith

Recently, I came across some interesting articles, whereupon George Lucas indicated, that had Anakin decided to fight Sidious in a lightsaber duel, without his injuries, he would have beaten him.

This same Anakin could defeat Dooku as well.

So I wondered - is there any salt to the idea of Dooku being able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel?

Dooku was noticably afraid to fight Sidious, but he also wanted Sidious dead in the end.

So, how afraid does Dooku have to be, really? Sidious elected to fight Windu and his comrades, largely without the aid of offense Force powers.

Does Dooku have anything to fear from Sidious in a lightsaber duel?

Who is truly superior? Who would truly survive if they duked it out?

What evidence tells you who would win?

~

Shortly before the commencement of Palpatine's plan to have himself kidnapped and have Dooku fight Anakin onboard The Invisible Hand, Dooku has a dark dream, where he sees himself falling to Skywalker.

Having had enough of Sidious and his seedy schemes, the Count decides to head to Palpatine's Office on Coruscant, where he will face and end the insidious Dark Lord, once and for all.

Managing to get into the building without detection, and making his way to Palpatine's Office - the Count confidently strides into the room to see a surprised and robed Palpatine turn to stare back at him as he walks in.

The two don't speak; silence engulfs the room.

Then, the dual hiss-snap of two red blades.

Starting Distance Apart: 10 Feet.

Palpatine and Dooku don't seek to use Offense Force powers - only Passive ones, to amp their abilities, etc.

They will engage in a strict Lightsaber Duel.

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/51712zx2.jpg

Originally posted by Rookwood
So I wondered - is there any salt to the idea of Dooku being able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel?

"One would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine,"

No.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"One would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine,"

No.

Apparently, though, even Palpatine can't defeat a non-Injured Anakin.

This seems to put both Dooku and Sidious in the same boat.

Originally posted by Rookwood


Recently, I came across some interesting articles, whereupon George Lucas indicated, that had Anakin decided to fight Sidious in a lightsaber duel, without his injuries, he would have beaten him.



I don't suppose you have a direct quote from the article?

That is what happens though in the alternate ending to the ROTS game.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"One would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine,"

No.

That quote was referring to Jedi. And it's talking about an all out fight anyway. Here I believe Rockwood is just referring to a pure fencing match.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't suppose you have a direct quote from the article?

That is what happens though in the alternate ending to the ROTS game.

I don't, but apparently, according to the guide that the article is derived from, M. Lucas said that if Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten Sidious.

This same uninjured-Anakin defeated Dooku, so it makes me ponder.

Originally posted by Rookwood
I don't, but apparently, according to the guide that the article is derived from, M. Lucas said that if Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten Sidious.

This same uninjured-Anakin defeated Dooku, so it makes me ponder.

I'm not sure if Lucas has directly stated that but it wouldn't surprise me. He did always say Anakin could have defeated him if not for his injuries. Most people assumed he was talking about Anakin's potential only, but I was never fully convinced of that.

He also said after his injuries that: "From then on he was never as strong as the Emperor,"(Rolling stones interview) implying that before his injuries he was that strong.

I always thought it would probably be a good fight (Peak ROTS Anakin vs Sidious).

But even IF Anakin could beat both Sidious and Dooku that doesn't mean Sidious and Dooku have to be equals. I really don't see Anakin defeating Sidious without Immense Difficulty.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Apparently, though, even Palpatine can't defeat a non-Injured Anakin.

This seems to put both Dooku and Sidious in the same boat.

No it doesn't. Anakin before he was injured could potentially become twice as powerful as Sidious. As of RotS though, Sidious would kick Ani's ass.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That quote was referring to Jedi. And it's talking about an all out fight anyway. Here I believe Rockwood is just referring to a pure fencing match.

Ok. No anyway.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As of RotS though, Sidious would kick Ani's ass.




I doubt he would kick his ass in a pure Saber duel. But obviously his force powers would likely prove too much for Skywalker.

But then Mace avoided a force fight and just beat Sidious outright in Sabers. So.. I guess that option is possible.

No, he would kick his ass in a saber duel as of RotS...

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
No, he would kick his ass in a saber duel as of RotS...

You think so?

In Sabers that would make Sidious >> Anakin > Dooku.

That would make too much difference in the saber prowess between Sidious and Dooku Imo.

And then of course Yoda>Sidous in sabers. So if this chain was true then there really wouldn't have been any sort of Saber fight at all between Yoda and Dooku.

Nah. I'm certain Peak ROTS Anakin vs Sidious would be a good Saber fight.

You rely heavily on A>B>C arguments it would seem.

The quote from GL stating that Anakin would be able to compete with Sidious barring his injuries is a reference to Anakin achieving his potential and overcoming him... certainly not RotS Ani.

BTW - I never said that it wouldn't be a "good fight."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I doubt he would kick his ass in a pure Saber duel.

I don't. Sidious is faster (blitzing 3 Jedi Council Members, Windu needing to amp up to be on par with him), stronger (saberlocking Maul and Opress at the same time) and more skilled (His fight with the brothers showed excellent skill and he stalemated Mace freaking Windu) than Anakin. He is utterly above Anakin in every way and would take him without much difficulty. Stop relying on ABC's so much.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't. Sidious is faster (blitzing 3 Jedi Council Members, Windu needing to amp up to be on par with him), stronger (saberlocking Maul and Opress at the same time) and more skilled (His fight with the brothers showed excellent skill and he stalemated Mace freaking Windu) than Anakin. He is utterly above Anakin in every way and would take him without much difficulty. Stop relying on ABC's so much.

Sidious is probably faster I agree, but I don't see anything to make me believe it's by a massive amount. And no way am I going to believe he's stronger with Anakin's Cyborg arm and his massive Force reserves.

Kenobi also saberlocked Maul and Opress and also showed excellent skill against them. Anakin is said to be just as skilled as Kenobi but a lot stronger and massively larger force reserves.

So no I don't believe Sidious is better in every single way. Not by a long shot.

Sidious might have (temporarily) stalemated Mace frigging Windu but Skywalker overpowered Count frigging Dooku by a noticeable margin.

End of the day Skywalker defeated the most powerful opponent he faced which was Count Dooku. So I don't really get where this assumed gap comes in between Sidious's and Skywalker's Saber Prowess.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai

The quote from GL stating that Anakin would be able to compete with Sidious barring his injuries is a reference to Anakin achieving his potential and overcoming him... certainly not RotS Ani.


I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove either way tbh. Lucas has said a few different things. He's said OT Vader is 80% as powerful as Sidious and he's said that same Vader "has lost a lot of power in the force" comparing him to ROTS Anakin.

He's also said "From then on he wasn't as strong as the Emperor, more like Darth Maul or Count Dooku,"

That seems to imply before his injuries he was that strong.


Point being he's not exactly been clear on the subject. But a level of parity has been implied.

And as for all his unusable potential, people quickly forget his feat on Mortis, where he clearly did use his full potential. You can argue that was just a mortis thing, but he did it. And the Son and Daughter also had access to the amp available on Mortis.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious is probably faster I agree, but I don't see anything to make me believe it's by a massive amount.

'Probably?' You think Anakin could do what Sidious did? You think Anakin is faster than Mace Windu?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And no way am I going to believe he's stronger with Anakin's Cyborg arm and his massive Force reserves.

Lol, Anakin isn't automatically stronger just because he has a cyborg arm or because he has large Force reserves. Sidious held off Savage Oppress with one freaking hand. You know, the guy who threw Dooku into a wall the second he tried to block his attacks?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi also saberlocked Maul and Opress

For 3 seconds.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and also showed excellent skill against them.

Kenobi showed obvious desperation against them and they were hampered by the envirnment. Sidious kicked their asses in a open space without one of them having a bad knee while grinning up a storm.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious might have (temporarily) stalemated Mace frigging Windu but Skywalker overpowered Count frigging Dooku by a noticeable margin.

End of the day Skywalker defeated the most powerful opponent he faced which was Count Dooku. So I don't really get where this assumed gap comes in between Sidious's and Skywalker's Saber Prowess

Anakin beat Dooku through sheer strength. That obviously won't work on Sidious. Besides which, Windu > Dooku.

Originally posted by Nephthys
'Probably?' You think Anakin could do what Sidious did? You think Anakin is faster than Mace Windu?

I don't think the difference is as large as you make out.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, Anakin isn't automatically stronger just because he has a cyborg arm or because he has large Force reserves. Sidious held off Savage Oppress with one freaking hand. You know, the guy who threw Dooku into a wall the second he tried to block his attacks?

So did Obi-Wan.



Originally posted by Nephthys
For 3 seconds.

So imagine how much longer could Anakin do it for?



Originally posted by Nephthys
Kenobi showed obvious desperation against them and they were hampered by the envirnment. Sidious kicked their asses in a open space without one of them having a bad knee while grinning up a storm.

They wern't hampered at all for the Saber fight. The closed environment probably limited Opress using his not very targetted Force waves but that's about it.

If anything the environment favored the brothers in the Saber portion of the fight. Obi-Wan was fighting 2 physical beasts in a small cave stuck in between them. He had no room to give ground.

He best them through superior Saber skills.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin beat Dooku through sheer strength. That obviously won't work on Sidious. Besides which, Windu > Dooku.

Anakin's got massive amounts of strength as Dooku noted. He was at least as fast as Dooku. And you admitted yourself recently that his Saber skill is seriously understated on these boards.

Ok Windu > Dooku. So what? Anakin > Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't think the difference is as large as you make out.

Unless you can back it up, I'm not too concerned with what you believe.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So did Obi-Wan.

No he didn't.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So imagine how much longer could Anakin do it for?

I'd rather go by what he actually does. Anakin failed to overpower or even overly tire Obi-Wan in their duel.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They wern't hampered at all for the Saber fight. The closed environment probably limited Opress using his not very targetted Force waves but that's about it.

If anything the environment favored the brothers in the Saber portion of the fight. Obi-Wan was fighting 2 physical beasts in a small cave stuck in between them. He had no room to give ground.

He best them through superior Saber skills.

Tempest has provided evidence from the show director that they were, so erm, yes they were?

No he didn't. He got lucky. They were clearly going to win until Savage's knee went.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin's got massive amounts of strength as Dooku noted. He was at least as fast as Dooku. And you admitted yourself recently that his Saber skill is seriously understated on these boards.

Ok Windu > Dooku. So what? Anakin > Dooku.

None of that makes him on Sidious' level.

And Sidious is above Windu, hence why the latter needed to elevate himself up to Sidious' level with Vaapad. Your argument still hinges on ABC logic though. Recall that even heavily boosted by a darkside nexus Dooku was no match for Yoda. Sidious obviously was.

*Shadow Conspiracy, Neph, not director.

Meh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unless you can back it up, I'm not too concerned with what you believe.

And likewise I have no interest in what you chose to believe without you backing it up. Saying he blitzed whoever is not proof.

Anakin defeated Dooku who went toe to toe with Yoda. So I don't see any reason to believe Sidious's speed is just too much for Anakin.



Originally posted by Nephthys
No he didn't.

Oh yes he did.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd rather go by what he actually does. Anakin failed to overpower or even overly tire Obi-Wan in their duel.

Are you really going to argue Anakin isn't substantially stronger than Kenobi?

The only reason Anakin wasn't able to overpower Obi-Wan is because Obi-Wan kept giving ground so that wouldn't happen. Doesn't change the fact that Anakin is just as skilled as Obi-Wan but Stronger.

Not to mention you have no idea how many seconds Sidious held off the 2 brothers for. Until you do it's a moot point. Considering Anakin is stronger than Obi-Wan, and yet even Obi-Wan did it, it's a moot point anyway.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Tempest has provided evidence from the show director that they were, so erm, yes they were?

LOL The director said Obi-Wan won that fight because he was properly focused this time and because he's a very skilled swordsman.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he didn't. He got lucky. They were clearly going to win until Savage's knee went.

How exactly is smashing his knee in getting lucky?



Originally posted by Nephthys
None of that makes him on Sidious' level.

I think after overpowering Dooku the way he did we should at least consider the possibility. I never stated it as definite. Unlike you who has. Which means it's your job to prove it. Which I'm afraid you haven't done.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Sidious is above Windu, hence why the latter needed to elevate himself up to Sidious' level with Vaapad. Your argument still hinges on ABC logic though. Recall that even heavily boosted by a darkside nexus Dooku was no match for Yoda. Sidious obviously was.

We have no idea how much of a boost Dooku was getting on Vjun. And the fight was basically like in AOTC anyway, just that he seemed to have held his own for longer this time.

As for the ABC logic, it's all we have to go on really. What exactly are you going on that makes you so certain Sidious would kick Anakin's butt in a Saber fight?

Which only shows how impressive Obi-Wan is and doesn't prove that Anakin was weak. I remember you saying something similar, when someone was lowballing your favorite characters.


Info comes from book but it outright contradicts movie.

"Sabers hissed, their blades striking sparks from the walls, leaving half-melted scrapes and bubbling burns in their wake."

In movie not a signle time anyone's lightsaber touched walls. The only exception was when Kenobi's lightsaber touched cable.

"The two Sith maneuvered to pin Obi-Wan against the wall- but there was so little room in the corridor that they got in each other's way. Savage charged in to strike, leaving his left arm exposed for a split second. It was all the time Obi-Wan needed. He lunged and sliced the Zabrak's yellow-and-black arm off at the shoulder."

In book brothers got in each other's way and as result Opress made silly move. In movie brothers surrounded Kenobi without any problem, then were attacking from opposite sides without getting in each other's way and Opress lost arm in completely different circumstances.

Imho author had very limited info of the fight and wrote it before episode came out. To be fare no one would expect Kenobi to utilize kicks so effectively and doing so much acrobatics.


That's funny. With same success I can say that Yoda is below Sidious. He needed Ataru to elevate himself up to Sidious' level.

Originally posted by Arhael


In book brothers got in each other's way and as result Opress made silly move. In movie brothers surrounded Kenobi without any problem, then were attacking from opposite sides without getting in each other's way and Opress lost arm in completely different circumstances.

I really don't see how a defensive fighter stuck in a small cave against 2 physical beasts and being unable to give ground is supposed to be an advantage to him. If anything he was disadvantaged in that situation.

Opress may have been outskilled by Jar Kai but then that's what Sidious is using against him too.

Originally posted by Arhael
Imho author had very limited info of the fight and wrote it before episode came out. To be fare no one would expect Kenobi to utilize kicks so effectively and doing so much acrobatics.


Makes me wonder how different the Sidious fight will be. Who knows perhaps Sidious won't use the Force and he'll just batter them both in Sabers like Obi-Wan did.

They're more or less on par with maybe Sidious having the slight advantage of being faster and younger.

Both seemed to be inferior to Yoda. I think Anakin beating Dooku is a result of a pile of unusual circumstances.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
I think Anakin beating Dooku is a result of a pile of unusual circumstances.

CW Series has put an end to that idea. By ROTS Anakin was always going to overpower Count Dooku, unusual circumstances or not.

I don't really go by that show. But, to each their own.

Sidious can't use Force Attacks?

Just a lightsaber duel?

Hmm..

this should be close

Dooku will zoon realize than when zidiouz tell him than he could defeat him in a light zaber combat it'z he could, be he would not, and he won't becauze thiz iz juzt a zidiouz flattery....

Sidious wins 10 / 10 via kinetic power.

He needn't kinetic power.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Sidious wins 10 / 10 via kinetic power.


Ah yes, the Kinetic Power, apparently being Dooku's MAJOR Weakness. Yet surprisingly it never stopped him out sparring Mace Windu or Savage Opress or General Grievous, or fending off Yoda's assault for a while, or fending off Skywalker and Kenobi combined twice.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ah yes, the Kinetic Power, apparently being Dooku's MAJOR Weakness. Yet surprisingly it never stopped him out sparring Mace Windu or Savage Opress or General Grievous, or fending off Yoda's assault for a while, or fending off Skywalker and Kenobi combined twice.

Yoda (also ataru user) does not use offensive kinetic power with his little shoto blade. Obi-Wan and Grievous are not using Juyo or Djem-So as well. Anakin always gave a good fight to him, defeated him in TCW and RotS. If Mace uses his vaapad amplification, yeah it will exhaust Dooku eventually. Savage also one-shotted him before his prime.

Juyo / Vaapad & Djem-So provides the necessary kinetic power. Not shi-cho, ataru, soresu, makashi etc.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Yoda (also ataru user) does not use offensive kinetic power with his little shoto blade.


Ataro has a powerful offensive, so of course the Most Powerful Jedi wielding it will have plenty of Kinetic power.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Obi-Wan and Grievous are not using Juyo or Djem-So as well.


Doesn't matter. We're talking about Kinetic power, which Grievous clearly has in spades. Although I'm sure Grievous does actually employ the primary 6 forms in his technique.

Kenobi's modest amount of kinetic power only adds to Skywalker's when they are attacking Dooku together.



Originally posted by Marco1907
Anakin always gave a good fight to him,


That's because Anakin's a powerhouse.


Originally posted by Marco1907
defeated him in TCW and RotS.


He floored him in TCW once via a kick. Dooku's kicks on Ventress and Skywalker have always been far more lethal.

The ROTS Novel makes it clear the reason Skywalker defeated Dooku is because he was simply too powerful for him. It had nothing to do with Djem So, which Dooku handled just fine once he had Anakin one on one and taunted him into feeling fear so he couldn't use his entire wealth of power. I would give the exact quotes if I had the novel on me.



Originally posted by Marco1907
If Mace uses his vaapad amplification, yeah it will exhaust Dooku eventually. Savage also one-shotted him before his prime.


That's your own theory. He's sparred Vapaad Windu in the past and bested him. Dark Rendezvous also suggests Dooku and Windu are rivals in a Saber fight.

Dooku handled Savage's Kintetic Power with Ease in their 1 v 1.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Juyo / Vaapad & Djem-So provides the necessary kinetic power. Not shi-cho, ataru, soresu, makashi etc.



And yet Dooku's casually out fenced Sora Bulq who was using Vapaad, and it's in fact Djem So that has the Weakness to Dooku's Mobility. That's in fact the ONLY Weakness mentioned in the ROTS Novel.

You can't just make up your own theories like that of this supposed "MAJOR Weakness" Dooku has, when the only time it was mentioned in canon, it was very context specific (fighting off 2 opponents), and the word "Weakness" was never even used, just because you don't like the idea of Skywalker being too Powerful for Count Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ataro has a powerful offensive, so of course the Most Powerful Jedi wielding it will have plenty of Kinetic power.

Yoda's attacks can't carry much kinetic energy. His attacks are very slow because limbs are much shorter. He has far less strength than others. And he attacks while in air, attacks are stronger when your feet are solidly on the ground. Yes, he compensates it with Force but still nowhere as strong as Opress, Anakin or even Windu.

Regardless, as of the thread Dooku has a chance to win. But majority obviously goes to Sidious.

Sidious, easily.

Originally posted by Arhael


Regardless, as of the thread Dooku has a chance to win. But majority obviously goes to Sidious.


Ahh I actually think he can't win in direct Saber combat. And that his best shot at Sidious (or Windu) in Sabers would be to go for a stalemate. Just keep giving ground and fending them off, like Kenobi does with Skywalker, until he can either gain some sort of tactical advantage or just find an opportunity to escape.

Makashi's a great form to fend off Powerful opponents with Imo, despite this rumor going around that it's weak against strong opponents.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ahh I actually think he can't win in direct Saber combat. And that his best shot at Sidious (or Windu) in Sabers would be to go for a stalemate. Just keep giving ground and fending them off, like Kenobi does with Skywalker, until he can either gain some sort of tactical advantage or just find an opportunity to escape.

Makashi's a great form to fend off Powerful opponents with Imo, despite this rumor going around that it's weak against strong opponents.
Why not? Considering his feats of fighting Anakin and Kenobi, fighting Yoda on even terms and outright being stated to be on parr with Windu surely he must have at least tiny chance of winning Sidious in sabers.

Originally posted by Arhael
Why not? Considering his feats of fighting Anakin and Kenobi, fighting Yoda on even terms and outright being stated to be on parr with Windu surely he must have at least tiny chance of winning Sidious in sabers.



Maybe, I just think he'd be silly to try, because he'd more than likely lose. And that his best bet would just be to fend him off, looking for either a tactical advantage or a way to escape, or both.

Sidious (and Windu) are just much stronger than Dooku whose way past his physical prime Imo.

Although I do seem to remember when Talzin possessed Dooku, Sidious says to her something like "You clearly don't have Dooku's Saber skills", just before he beats her.

I think Kenobi and Skywalker make a poor duo when tackling one opponent. They seem to do much better on their own.

Dooku has no chance to win. Not even a tiny one because of the reason I've mentioned before.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And yet Dooku's casually out fenced Sora Bulq who was using Vapaad,

1- Bulq is not strong like the people I've mentioned
2- Dooku didn't even defeat Bulq via sabers iirc, he disarmed his shoto saber, then he used force lightning to defeat him.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku has no chance to win. Not even a tiny one because of the reason I've mentioned before.


Your reasons are not valid as I've thoroughly addressed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your reasons are not valid as I've thoroughly addressed.

You say Anakin is powerhouse yet same Anakin failed to defeat Obi-Wan, if you believe Anakin's physical strength is abnormal, then he should've defeat Obi-Wan just as he did to Dooku. However Obi-Wan had no difficulty with Anakin's kinetic power.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maybe, I just think he'd be silly to try, because he'd more than likely lose. And that his best bet would just be to fend him off, looking for either a tactical advantage or a way to escape, or both.

Sidious (and Windu) are just much stronger than Dooku whose way past his physical prime Imo.

Although I do seem to remember when Talzin possessed Dooku, Sidious says to her something like "You clearly don't have Dooku's Saber skills", just before he beats her.

I think Kenobi and Skywalker make a poor duo when tackling one opponent. They seem to do much better on their own.
Obviously Dooku wouldn't try. He fears Sidious like he does Yoda. But for the sake of VS thread we can at least imagine him fighting till the end.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think Kenobi and Skywalker make a poor duo when tackling one opponent. They seem to do much better on their own.

By UNANIMOUS verdict, Dooku is more screwed then he ever realized.

POWER! UNLIMITED POWERRRRRR!

Originally posted by Angelalex242
By UNANIMOUS verdict, Dooku is more screwed then he ever realized.

POWER! UNLIMITED POWERRRRRR!


That was Lightning. This is Sabers only.

I think anyone saying Sidious kicks his butt 10/10 is seriously underestimating Dooku's Saber Prowess.

Even with sabers only, Sidious is FAST. Dooku, for all his elegance, is going to get speed blitzed.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Dooku, for all his elegance, is going to get speed blitzed.
LOLNOPE.

I agree that Sidious would solidly defeat him, but Sidious is not capable of blitzing every character not named Luke/Yoda/Plagueis/Caedus.

Originally posted by Marco1907
You say Anakin is powerhouse yet same Anakin failed to defeat Obi-Wan, if you believe Anakin's physical strength is abnormal, then he should've defeat Obi-Wan just as he did to Dooku. However Obi-Wan had no difficulty with Anakin's kinetic power.


Soresu's better at defending, that doesn't somehow make Dooku weak at it. Makashi is in fact an excellent defending form.

You're also ignoring the fact that Dooku almost had Skywalker beat when he kick slammed him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Obviously Dooku wouldn't try. He fears Sidious like he does Yoda. But for the sake of VS thread we can at least imagine him fighting till the end.


Actually yeah I agree. Dooku would lose 10/10 in an All-Out but if it's Sabers only I'm sure Dooku could take something like 3 wins out of 10.



Oops Double Post.

Dooku can't win 3/10 against Sidious imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku can't win 3/10 against Sidious imo.


You know this is Sabers Only right?

Even with sabers, Sidious is still too fast for him to even perceive due to his enormous force reserves.

Dooku gets stomped.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You know this is Sabers Only right?

Yes.

Originally posted by carthage
Even with sabers, Sidious is still too fast for him to even perceive due to his enormous force reserves.

Dooku gets stomped.

Sidious 10/10 tbh. Dooku can hold his own, but he really doesn't have much chance of defeating Sidious.

Originally posted by Rookwood
I don't, but apparently, according to the guide that the article is derived from, M. Lucas said that if Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten Sidious.

This same uninjured-Anakin defeated Dooku, so it makes me ponder.

No fool, the implication was that if he didn't get injured he could have become 200% of Sidious, but instead was reduced to 80%.

Dat 2 year late reply tho

Darth Sidious is profoundly above Count Dooku. The former's performance in a confrontation with Darth Maul and Opress Savage clearly represents great disparity between him and Count Dooku in power and martial abilities, the latter struggled against a lesser trained Opress Savage and Asajj Ventress in a confrontation and managed to escape via circumstances.

Originally posted by carthage
Even with sabers, Sidious is still too fast for him to even perceive due to his enormous force reserves.

Dooku gets stomped. Not to mention strong enough to disarm him with utter ease.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Sidious is profoundly above Count Dooku. The former's performance in a confrontation with Darth Maul and Opress Savage clearly represents great disparity between him and Count Dooku in power and martial abilities, the latter struggled against a lesser trained Opress Savage and Asajj Ventress in a confrontation and managed to escape via circumstances.


Kind of iffy A>B >C there tbh. Given:


1. When you have a Power level scenario of Sidious > Dooku > Maul > Opress, then even though Maul+Opress would likely take Dooku for a solid majority, the Power disparity between Sidious and Maul, and especially Sidious and Opress just becomes too much for them to put up any kind of decent fight. But that doesn't mean Dooku can't put up a decent fight when he is more Powerful than Maul, and Vastly more Powerful than Opress.


2. Count Dooku was stalemating/besting a greater duo than Maul/Opress in Season 6 of TCW against Anakin+Obi-Wan. And that fight was mostly just Sabers.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No fool, the implication was that if he didn't get injured he could have become 200% of Sidious, but instead was reduced to 80%.
That person hasn't been here for two years, fool.

Count Dooku has a MAJOR WEAKNESS to Kinetic Energy.

That's why Opress floored and disarmed him in 1 stroke. Now Sidious has got into a blade lock with Maul and Opress combined. So Clearly that means all it will take it a Semi-Stroke from Sidious (if that) and Dooku will be defeated.

Dooku guts him, Sidious's saber skills are overrated!

You're overrated!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Count Dooku has a MAJOR WEAKNESS to Kinetic Energy.

That's why Opress floored and disarmed him in 1 stroke. Now Sidious has got into a blade lock with Maul and Opress combined. So Clearly that means all it will take it a Semi-Stroke from Sidious (if that) and Dooku will be defeated.

He compenzate by dodging... What he can completly again oprezz....

But againzt zidiouz....

Originally posted by Revanchiste
He compenzate by dodging... What he can completly again oprezz....

But againzt zidiouz....

Exactly. All it will take is Half a Saber strike by Sidious to defeat Dooku who has a MAJOR WEAKNESS against anyone who puts some wallop into their strikes.

Tempest will die of a heart attack when he reads the posts in this thread

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Exactly. All it will take is Half a Saber strike by Sidious to defeat Dooku who has a MAJOR WEAKNESS against anyone who puts some wallop into their strikes.
This guy. This guy gets it.

eodJ_4udTlA

The problem iz than Dooku hold againzt Grievouz who can bazicly let an impact on impervium plate with juzt hiz punch......

The problem iz that Dooku Hold hiz guard and he only drop hiz light zaber when he hit the wall.....

And he throw them too far away to be able to counter attack.. Unlike malguz with twice the ztrengh actualty dizarm well.....

Originally posted by Marco1907
eodJ_4udTlA

hW6IB9J98Tc

@DP

Thanks, that reply really makes sense tbh, Savage has been always the same, he hasn't grown strong or didn't learn anything in a one week.

Originally posted by Marco1907
@DP

Thanks, that reply really makes sense tbh, Savage has been always the same, he hasn't grown strong or didn't learn anything in a one week.


So wait Savage wasn't strong yet in their training session?

No actually what makes complete sense is that clearly 1 week training is all he needed to go from being utterly embarassed by Dooku to apparently being capable of 1 shotting him any time he likes.

And FYI Filoni already confirmed that Opress hardly had any training, and that all his power has pretty much come from the Nightsister amp.

Oh and let's also IGNORE the fact that it was 2 v 1 when Savage floored Dooku, which was also the case in the Rots novel when meeting HEAD to HEAD was an issue- While Fending Off a Second Attacker.

Dooku says that he has completed the first stages of his training here; this happens after that training in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3phTvVo0hE

Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku says that he has completed the first stages of his training here; this happens after that training in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3phTvVo0hE


Yeah in the same damn episode. Exactly what kind of improvement do you think he had in that 1 episode?

Going from being utterly embarrassed by Dooku, to (according to you) able to 1 shot him any time? At that rate he should have been stomping Maul too after all that time he had more training under Maul. Heck at the rate you're claiming he should have taken Sidious by "The Lawless."

The first stages of his training just means his first lessons in Sabers and Tk, which we saw at then end of he was still absolutely no match for Dooku in either. And Director's commentary > Dooku's words to his apprentice in any case. And the director confirmed Opress hardly had any training, and his power mostly just comes from his Nightsister Amp.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah in the same damn episode. Exactly what kind of improvement do you think he had in that 1 episode?


What I am saying that the video you've shown was before Savage Opress's lightsaber training, it was his first experience on lightsaber duel, what would expect ? Ragdolling Dooku in his first experience ?

Savage did that feat after completed the first stages of his training, that's why we can't compare those examples, because clearly Savage was inferior in the video you've shown.

Originally posted by Marco1907
What I am saying that the video you've shown was before Savage Opress's lightsaber training, it was his first experience on lightsaber duel, what would expect ? Ragdolling Dooku in his first experience ?

Savage did that feat after completed the first stages of his training, that's why we can't compare those examples, because clearly Savage was inferior in the video you've shown.


He was already from a Warrior tribe, so already had training in handling a weapon.

Now what I'm saying is that a few days of training is not enough to go from being humiliated like that to suddenly being a proper challenge in a 1 v 1 Saber fight, let alone being capable of 1 shotting Dooku any/every time he hits his blade.

Also at 2:34 here:

Xhys5CPFB_I

Skywalker bashes on Dooku's blade 3 times when he's on the floor, yet can not disarm him, and Dooku holds the blade lock 1 Handed no-less. That's why Skywalker resorts to grabbing Dooku's neck. So there clearly isn't any kind of Major Weakness to the Kinetic energy of Skywalker's blade there.

WHaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttttttt????? One perzone vote Dooku?

Yhea firzt training zezzion with makazhi.... It matter becauz Oprezz never learn makazhi and ztill fight with hiz combat ztyle...

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ataro has a powerful offensive, so of course the Most Powerful Jedi wielding it will have plenty of Kinetic power.




Doesn't matter. We're talking about Kinetic power, which Grievous clearly has in spades. Although I'm sure Grievous does actually employ the primary 6 forms in his technique.

Kenobi's modest amount of kinetic power only adds to Skywalker's when they are attacking Dooku together.






That's because Anakin's a powerhouse.





He floored him in TCW once via a kick. Dooku's kicks on Ventress and Skywalker have always been far more lethal.

The ROTS Novel makes it clear the reason Skywalker defeated Dooku is because he was simply too powerful for him. It had nothing to do with Djem So, which Dooku handled just fine once he had Anakin one on one and taunted him into feeling fear so he couldn't use his entire wealth of power. I would give the exact quotes if I had the novel on me.






That's your own theory. He's sparred Vapaad Windu in the past and bested him. Dark Rendezvous also suggests Dooku and Windu are rivals in a Saber fight.

Dooku handled Savage's Kintetic Power with Ease in their 1 v 1.





And yet Dooku's casually out fenced Sora Bulq who was using Vapaad, and it's in fact Djem So that has the Weakness to Dooku's Mobility. That's in fact the ONLY Weakness mentioned in the ROTS Novel.

You can't just make up your own theories like that of this supposed "MAJOR Weakness" Dooku has, when the only time it was mentioned in canon, it was very context specific (fighting off 2 opponents), and the word "Weakness" was never even used, just because you don't like the idea of Skywalker being too Powerful for Count Dooku.

We've gone over this before big buddy... You have no proof Mace new Vaapad at that point... Even if he did... why or how would you use vaapad in sparring and against a lightsider? you wouldn't and it would've be as effective. Lastly, Dooku was clearly younger and in his prime more and Mace had not yet come into his own. That is a very distinct and real possibility as well. Regardless, sparring is very different than a life and death fight.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We've gone over this before big buddy... You have no proof Mace new Vaapad at that point... Even if he did... why or how would you use vaapad in sparring and against a lightsider? you wouldn't and it would've be as effective. Lastly, Dooku was clearly younger and in his prime more and Mace had not yet come into his own. That is a very distinct and real possibility as well. Regardless, sparring is very different than a life and death fight.

Agreed. Mace never uses his vaapad in sparring matches. And we don't know when Mace created the vaapad.

Dooku would handle Mace in a saber match too awesr

Why wouldn't Mace use Vaapad in a sparring match? It's his primary lightsaber style, and you have no evidence to support such an inference.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Agreed. Mace never uses his vaapad in sparring matches. And we don't know when Mace created the vaapad.

Yes we do. Before Kenobi was old enough to specialize in a lightsaber form.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes we do. Before Kenobi was old enough to specialize in a lightsaber form.

I didn't hear it before. Which source says this ? Nevertheless, Windu is 30 years younger than Dooku, I don't think he was in his prime at the time before TPM.

And ? Now we can be sure about that Windu had developed the Vaapad at the time in TPM. I don't think Windu & Dooku's sparring matches happened in a close time to TPM either. It is still ambiguous.

10 years before TPM maybe ? While Dooku was still a true jedi and friend of Windu, because at the time of TPM, Dooku was already ready to leave the Jedi Order.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why wouldn't Mace use Vaapad in a sparring match? It's his primary lightsaber style, and you have no evidence to support such an inference.

This is getting ridiculous that I would even have to answer such an obvious and stupid question.

First, please give me the exact date of this sparring match? No date has ever been produced when I ask this question. There is no date, thus we have no clue if it was before or after mace MASTERED vaapad.

Second, to even think you'd use Vaapad to the same degree in sparring as in a life or death situation is beyond retarded. Part of Vaapad is using the DS emotions of Mace and channeling them to increase his power levels. It can also channel a DS energy as well. The whole super conducting loop. Thus, if Mace is fighting a friend... who is a Jedi and not a DS.. There would be no loop... There would be no animosity or anger or motivation to save the Republic. he's not fighting for his life and against a sith Lord... he's fighting a friend in sparring. To even think Vaapad for be used or even as effective is bordering on retarded to be honest.

In a Force battle or All-out, it's not even close. But it might be in pure lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Second, to even think you'd use Vaapad to the same deg--snip*

Tsk, tsk. I don't care about your opinion on how hard he was fighting, you said Mace didn't use Vaapad in his sparring matches, and I told you to back it up. Instead you conceded without argument, and I have nothing else to say on the matter.

Originally posted by McP
But it might be in pure lightsaber duel.

Nope, it is not, especialy while RotS Sidious is probably physically strong (or stronger) as Savage Opress or Darth Maul. Plus he is more skilled, and faster.

Dooku has no chance here, he can't even replicate the same feat he did against Yoda. The reason he did good against Yoda is he knows the every weaknesses of ataru and Yoda can't produce enough kinetic power with his little shoto lightsaber blade.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Tsk, tsk. I don't care about your opinion on how hard he was fighting, you said Mace didn't use Vaapad in his sparring matches, and I told you to back it up. Instead you conceded without argument, and I have nothing else to say on the matter.

You have ZERO proof that he used it. Actually you made the claim that he had both mastered it and used it. The onus lies DIRECTLY on you not me. Since you failed to prove your case I'll accept your concession.

Further, I was just talking about even if he did use it how it wouldn't be to the same degree.. So even if you happen to (which you won't) to prove your case... He still would've be using it to the same degree as Sids thus the comparison was completely false and useless. To even compare a sparring match among friends to a life and death struggle is bordering on idiotic

Oh yeah, Sidious is still a ways stronger, a ways faster, and even more skilled/unorthodox. Dooku probably does about the same as Maul did in his final bout with Palps.

Still waiting for you to prove your case about the sparring match bud

2 perzonz goez with dooku.. who????

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Still waiting for you to prove your case bud

I didn't make one. I called you out on yours.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We've gone over this before big buddy... You have no proof Mace new Vaapad at that point... Even if he did... why or how would you use vaapad in sparring and against a lightsider? you wouldn't and it would've be as effective. Lastly, Dooku was clearly younger and in his prime more and Mace had not yet come into his own. That is a very distinct and real possibility as well. Regardless, sparring is very different than a life and death fight.

I think you completely missed my point, which was that Dooku "form" isn't by default "weak" against "Kinetic energy", or anyone whose strong.

At no point was I making a case for Dooku being superior to Windu (although I do think he would give Mace a run for his money).

And I wouldn't use their sparring as an argument for Dooku being greater than Mace. But I would use it as proof of Dooku being in the elite 3 Jedi Swordsmen, considering that ONLY Dooku and Yoda were even capable of beating Mace.

I would also use it as yet another example that Dooku's form can handle "strong" people.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why wouldn't Mace use Vaapad in a sparring match? It's his primary lightsaber style, and you have no evidence to support such an inference.

This was your initial premise. You're posing a question as if he already know vaapad. So I'm asking you to post the proof of this. Second, let's say for a second he did... can you prove he'd mastered it by this point in time when they "sparred"? Further, even if he did to both of those... Sparring and a life and death fight are worlds apart. Not to mention Mace not being able to draw on his opponents dark energy since he's a lightsider. All of which make any sparring match next to useless for ROTS Mace

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This was your initial premise. You're posing a question as if he already know vaapad. So I'm asking you to post the proof of this. Second, let's say for a second he did... can you prove he'd mastered it by this point in time when they "sparred"? Further, even if he did to both of those... Sparring and a life and death fight are worlds apart. Not to mention Mace not being able to draw on his opponents dark energy since he's a lightsider. All of which make any sparring match next to useless for ROTS Mace
You keep mentioning sparring but there is, also, a thing called competition, where both fighters go all out like in real fight.
Vaapad is just as effective against lightsiders.

And Dooku was able to defeat Vaapad Windu:
http://i.imgur.com/i86tu59.png

As you can see his saber prowess is attributed to the unusual style he developed.
It is farther confirmed by Yoda stating that Dooku is on parr with Windu even as a Sith.

Originally posted by Arhael
You keep mentioning sparring but there is, also, a thing called competition, where both fighters go all out like in real fight.


And we know that Mace was humble, while Dooku was competitive. Mace wasn't trying to win the sparring matches against Saesee Tiin nor Quinlan Vos, why would be any different against Count Dooku ?

And Dooku, even as a Jedi, was a competitor and close to the dark side.

Savage disarmed Dooku with one clean hit.

Sidious held off Savage and Maul with one arm each.

Sidious smacks Dooku has hard as he can, Dooku goes flying and probably dies.

Kinetic power strokes ftw

Originally posted by Marco1907
And we know that Mace was humble, while Dooku was competitive. Mace wasn't trying to win the sparring matches against Saesee Tiin nor Quinlan Vos, why would be any different against Count Dooku ?

And Dooku, even as a Jedi, was a competitor and close to the dark side.
I don't even care about your speculation. You wanted proof that Windu knew Vaapad, I gave it.
Yoda stated that Dooku is on parr with Windu and that is with knowledge that Yoda and Dooku fought evenly in AotC. They are more or less on the same level.


Dooku dropped lightsaber as result of hitting the wall behind him. Opress did not disarm him. This feat is irrelevant to VS forum, unless the setting is a confined space. And even then Dooku would still win.

Sidious is not as strong as Opress and his attacks are nowhere as strong either.

All I see is speculation in that rebuttal Arhael

Originally posted by ILS
All I see is speculation in that rebuttal Arhael
What speculation?

This part, specifically:

Dooku did not drop lightsaber as result of hitting the wall?

Sidious is stronger than Opress?

Don't get you.

The fact that Sidious was able to hold off Maul and Savage in a saber lock with one arm each with (literally) laughable ease indicates a strength edge over Savage, yes.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The fact that Sidious was able to hold off Maul and Savage in a saber lock with one arm each with (literally) laughable ease indicates a strength edge over Savage, yes.
No it doesn't. Or Kenobi is, also, stronger than Opress + Maul? Because he had them in saber lock too. There is that thing called leverage.

Sidious couldn't overpower Windu in saber lock, so Windu is, also, stronger than Opress?

Also, is there a single example, where Sidious attacks would carry huge impact like Opress' attacks did? Opress knocked Dooku off feat, Sidious never demonstrated comparably strong attacks.

Except in Sidious's situation, it's the brothers who had the advantage of leverage.



Yeah.

Originally posted by Arhael
You keep mentioning sparring but there is, also, a thing called competition, where both fighters go all out like in real fight.



Precisely.

The fact that ONLY Yoda and Dooku ever beat Windu is proof enough he wasn't messing around in competitions.


Originally posted by Marco1907
And we know that Mace was humble, while Dooku was competitive. Mace wasn't trying to win the sparring matches against Saesee Tiin nor Quinlan Vos, why would be any different against Count Dooku ?

And Dooku, even as a Jedi, was a competitor and close to the dark side.

Hey? Windu stomped Vos in a "sparring" match. Just as he would stomp him in a real fight. Dooku also stomped Vos in a "sparring" match. Just as he stomped him in actual combat.

Again:

The fact that ONLY Yoda and Dooku ever beat Windu is proof enough he wasn't messing around in competitions.




Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku did not drop lightsaber as result of hitting the wall?


ILS is messing around.

Originally posted by Arhael


Sidious is stronger than Opress?

Don't get you.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The fact that Sidious was able to hold off Maul and Savage in a saber lock with one arm each with (literally) laughable ease indicates a strength edge over Savage, yes.


Actually according to the novel it wasn't with ease at all. He strained reaching through the Force to match them IIRC. And before you say "BUt he was Laughing," the novel also notes Sidious's smile and pleasure during the Blade lock. But that didn't take away that he was straining and reaching through the Force to do it.

Opress is obviously "Physically" stronger, whilst Sidious can exceed Opress's physical strength through Force enhanced strength. However I have a hard time believing that the average blade lock Windu and Sidious got into were all greater in strength than Opress's average strike, let alone Maul and Opress's average strike combined.

Oh and Kenobi was hardly in the best position during his Blade Lock with the Brothers. Opress's lock was actually higher up on Kenobi's blades which is harder to match, especially whilst blocking Maul's strength simultaneously.

Originally posted by Arhael
You keep mentioning sparring but there is, also, a thing called competition, where both fighters go all out like in real fight.
Vaapad is just as effective against lightsiders.

And Dooku was able to defeat Vaapad Windu:
http://i.imgur.com/i86tu59.png

As you can see his saber prowess is attributed to the unusual style he developed.
It is farther confirmed by Yoda stating that Dooku is on parr with Windu even as a Sith.

That'z true, it's an offensiv devloppement of the niman... The vaapad it self without the rage feeding it, is more defensiv than Yuyo, Yuyo is alaso a personalise technic as always, because it need to study multiple martials arts and light saber techniques before.

Niman was a good base for Vaapad due to the moove taken from all the other form.


The feeding on ennemy rage provide more effectiv moove because like Yuyo there is this part of randomisation, and random = random effectivity.
It doesn't make you invincible, it provide greater instinct reflexe etc....
But don't mistake yourself.

For comparison purposes-

Kenobi's blade lock:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kenobi+vs+maul+and+oppress&biw=1024&bih=667&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=U3aJVK2TGomyUeSphKgD&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#facrc=_&imgdii=_& amp;imgrc=SkW4r4cLQI00bM%253A%3BKs9OMcTFWLD5iM%3Bh
ttp%253A%252F%252Fstarwarsmaven.info%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2014%252F05%252FObi-Wan-Kenobi-fighting-off-Darth-Maul-and-Savage-Oppress.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fstarwarsmaven.info%252Fdarthmaul5%252F%3B640%3B360

Sidious's Blade lock:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kenobi+vs+maul+and+oppress&biw=1024&bih=667&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=U3aJVK2TGomyUeSphKgD&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#facrc=_&imgdii=_& amp;imgrc=XqgayPWmMFmAnM%253A%3BEHnmGGnUZQb7sM%3Bh
ttp%253A%252F%252Fi.ytimg.com%252Fvi%252F-7hBZNsPnyg%252Fmaxresdefault.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253D-7hBZNsPnyg%3B1599%3B900

Sidious's is more impressive because he doesn't have the wall supporting him, but just to show Kenobi's was no easy task either, look at the point of Kenobi's blade where Opress is striking, and the point of Sidious's blade where Opress is striking. It's easier to overpower a blade lock the higher up on the Opponent's blade you are hitting.

Dooku needs more rep in these forums.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
For comparison purposes-

Kenobi's blade lock:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kenobi+vs+maul+and+oppress&biw=1024&bih=667&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=U3aJVK2TGomyUeSphKgD&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#facrc=_&imgdii=_& amp;imgrc=SkW4r4cLQI00bM%253A%3BKs9OMcTFWLD5iM%3Bh
ttp%253A%252F%252Fstarwarsmaven.info%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2014%252F05%252FObi-Wan-Kenobi-fighting-off-Darth-Maul-and-Savage-Oppress.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fstarwarsmaven.info%252Fdarthmaul5%252F%3B640%3B360

Sidious's Blade lock:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kenobi+vs+maul+and+oppress&biw=1024&bih=667&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=U3aJVK2TGomyUeSphKgD&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#facrc=_&imgdii=_& amp;imgrc=XqgayPWmMFmAnM%253A%3BEHnmGGnUZQb7sM%3Bh
ttp%253A%252F%252Fi.ytimg.com%252Fvi%252F-7hBZNsPnyg%252Fmaxresdefault.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253D-7hBZNsPnyg%3B1599%3B900

Sidious's is more impressive because he doesn't have the wall supporting him, but just to show Kenobi's was no easy task either, look at the point of Kenobi's blade where Opress is striking, and the point of Sidious's blade where Opress is striking. It's easier to overpower a blade lock the higher up on the Opponent's blade you are hitting.
Well, if you consider being supported by the wall as advantage, Sidious was equally supported by each brother as he stood right between them. Regardless, in saber lock you can focus solely on strength contest, so yes, in that case you can amplify your strength with Force, that's why Dooku overpowers Kenobi in saber lock in AotC and even Anakin+Kenobi in RotS. But same thing doesn't happen, when they strike. Opress has immediate access to strength and his is naturally bigger, that's why only his attacks caused others to cringe or plain get knocked off feat. Dooku, Windu, Sidious and Maul attacks never carried that much impact, there is no single example of that.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Except in Sidious's situation, it's the brothers who had the advantage of leverage.

No, they didn't.


Then why Dooku did not have a problem with Windu's strength? Was able to defeat him as Jedi.
Stalemated him as Sith twice, even despite Kenobi's help in second encounter.
At no point Dooku struggled with Windu's strength.
http://i.imgur.com/hj6y9JY.png
See? Had Windu in saber lock with one hand only!

Originally posted by Arhael
Well, if you consider being supported by the wall as advantage, Sidious was equally supported by each brother as he stood right between them. Regardless, in saber lock you can focus solely on strength contest, so yes, in that case you can amplify your strength with Force, that's why Dooku overpowers Kenobi in saber lock in AotC and even Anakin+Kenobi in RotS. But same thing doesn't happen, when they strike. Opress has immediate access to strength and his is naturally bigger, that's why only his attacks caused others to cringe or plain get knocked off feat. Dooku, Windu, Sidious and Maul attacks never carried that much impact, there is no single example of that.




Although Sidious having great strength (force enhanced obviously) would make more sense to me for why Fisto couldn't trade blows with him for long, than Sidious being "Invisible." Because if he was invisible then Fisto never would have seen him in the first place, or even blocked 1 strike.


Originally posted by Arhael


Then why Dooku did not have a problem with Windu's strength? Was able to defeat him as Jedi.
Stalemated him as Sith twice, even despite Kenobi's help in second encounter.
At no point Dooku struggled with Windu's strength.
http://i.imgur.com/hj6y9JY.png
See? Had Windu in saber lock with one hand only!

Yep also this:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Also at 2:34 here:

Xhys5CPFB_I

Skywalker bashes on Dooku's blade 3 times when he's on the floor, yet can not disarm him, and Dooku holds the blade lock 1 Handed no-less. That's why Skywalker resorts to grabbing Dooku's neck. So there clearly isn't any kind of Major Weakness to the Kinetic energy of Skywalker's blade there.

Originally posted by Bentley
Dooku needs more rep in these forums.

Dooku is the most overrated PT character in KMC.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku is the most overrated PT character in KMC.


Not really no.

The highest people rank Dooku here is approx on par with Windu. Whilst everyone here puts him below Yoda and Sidious.

Given his feats, history and accolades that's not overrating him at all.


But when people claim he has a MAJOR Weakness to Kinetic Energy, and that pretty much anyone who is STRONG can take him out, then that is severely underrating him.

Dooku is more powerful than Maul.

It is closer than people think though.

I agree.

Dooku is good, but people comparing him to legends like the Hero or Revan is fallacious.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku is good, but people comparing him to legends like the Hero or Revan is fallacious.

Dooku would probably die by just Vitiate's mere presence, to be honest.

Originally posted by Arhael

While I agree that Revan and the HoT are above dooku, the latter is still absolutely one of the most legendary and powerful Jedi masters/Sith Lords in all of Galactic History. Yoda himself considered Dooku his greatest, wisest, and most powerful.

Originally posted by NewGuy01


Dooku is more powerful than Maul.

In force ? Yeah probably.
He has 50 years more experience on force and skilled with it, that is why he is using the force a little better. His potential is still inferior, he couldn't survive the same injury which Maul take. Surviving from that injury is better than anything Dooku has done before.

As physically, comparing them would be ridiculous though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku would probably die by just Vitiate's mere presence, to be honest.
Or Force choke him, while Vitiate gathered his power.

Originally posted by Marco1907
In force ? Yeah probably.
He has 50 years more experience on force and skilled with it, that is why he is using the force a little better. His potential is still inferior, he couldn't survive the same injury which Maul take. Surviving from that injury is better than anything Dooku has done before.


I agree Maul has more potential. Dooku pretty much realized his whole potential (aside from any Dark Side/Sith secrets Sidious hid from him). And Sidious wanted an Apprentice younger than Dooku and with the potential to be more Powerful.

However you do realize this extra 50 years experience he has relates to Saber combat as well right?



Originally posted by Marco1907
As physically, comparing them would be ridiculous though.

Although Dooku usually gives his Physically stronger opponents a good dose of Lightning in return e.g. when Skywalker booted him to the floor and began choking him with his Cyborg arm.

But comparing them in Saber Combat certainly isn't ridiculous. And I would personally give Dooku the definitive edge in Saber combat over Maul for now.

Originally posted by Arhael
You keep mentioning sparring but there is, also, a thing called competition, where both fighters go all out like in real fight.
Vaapad is just as effective against lightsiders.

And Dooku was able to defeat Vaapad Windu:
http://i.imgur.com/i86tu59.png

As you can see his saber prowess is attributed to the unusual style he developed.
It is farther confirmed by Yoda stating that Dooku is on parr with Windu even as a Sith.

Vaapad is certainly not just as effective against lighsiders. You're better than this Arhael. You do remember anything about Super conducting loop... feeding on darkside energies of your foe? You know these things very well and yet you intentionally ignore them. No, Vaapad isn't as effective against lightsiders. No, sparring and a real life fight are literally worlds apart. You have ZERO proof Mace was going all out. None.. Nada. Even if you did, you'd still be left with Mace not being as effective against Dooku as he would a darksider.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No, sparring and a real life fight are literally worlds apart. You have ZERO proof Mace was going all out.


The fact that ONLY Yoda and Dooku were ever able to beat Windu proves he took those contests pretty seriously. If he didn't then literally the entire Jedi Council on top of hundreds of other Jedi Masters would have beaten Windu at some point.




Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Even if you did, you'd still be left with Mace not being as effective against Dooku as he would a darksider.

If Mace isn't as effective against Lightsiders as he is against Darksiders, then I don't see what your issue is with Dooku having beaten Mace in the past.

In any case Dark Side Dooku has held his own against Mace at least twice.

That doesn't mean that at all though DP... That doesn't mean he was going all out in the slightest. If I fought all the neighborhood kids under the age of 13 all the time but could only draw with two guys that were 25.. does that mean I must've went all out against them cause I drew and didn't win? That isn't what that would mean... just like that doesn't mean he was going all out against them. Sparring is sparring.. they are so far apart from a life and death fight they are literally worlds apart. There is no way you could ever muster the adrenaline or have the emotions going on inside you during a life and death fight than you would a sparring match you really wanted to win. Even then they aren't comparable.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Vaapad is certainly not just as effective against lighsiders. You're better than this Arhael. You do remember anything about Super conducting loop... feeding on darkside energies of your foe? You know these things very well and yet you intentionally ignore them. No, Vaapad isn't as effective against lightsiders. No, sparring and a real life fight are literally worlds apart. You have ZERO proof Mace was going all out. None.. Nada. Even if you did, you'd still be left with Mace not being as effective against Dooku as he would a darksider.

It' effectif but not zo deadly.... It have more oppening againzt light ziderz.....

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That doesn't mean that at all though DP... That doesn't mean he was going all out in the slightest. If I fought all the neighborhood kids under the age of 13 all the time but could only draw with two guys that were 25.. does that mean I must've went all out against them cause I drew and didn't win? That isn't what that would mean... just like that doesn't mean he was going all out against them. Sparring is sparring.. they are so far apart from a life and death fight they are literally worlds apart. There is no way you could ever muster the adrenaline or have the emotions going on inside you during a life and death fight than you would a sparring match you really wanted to win. Even then they aren't comparable.

I really don't get what your point is. Are you denying that Yoda, Mace and Dooku were the 3 beat Swordsmen in the Jedi Order? Because that's all that statement is proving. Just because Dooku beat Windu doesn't mean Windu didn't beat Dooku twice as many times.

But the fact that ONLY Yoda and Dooku were ever able to defeat Windu after he created Vapaad is clearly meant to point out who the 3 Best and Elite Jedi Swordsmen were.

So I don't know what exactly you're arguing about here except that you don't like the quote because you don't like the idea of Dooku even being capable of besting Windu in any kind of proper fighting ever.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Vaapad is certainly not just as effective against lighsiders. You're better than this Arhael. You do remember anything about Super conducting loop... feeding on darkside energies of your foe? You know these things very well and yet you intentionally ignore them. No, Vaapad isn't as effective against lightsiders. No, sparring and a real life fight are literally worlds apart. You have ZERO proof Mace was going all out. None.. Nada. Even if you did, you'd still be left with Mace not being as effective against Dooku as he would a darksider.
I am well aware of superconduit loop. Do you have a proof that the loop cannot be completed by the lightside opponent? Don't think so.

From Shatterpoint:

"Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat" - If Vaapad is ineffective against lightsiders, how comes Depa was so effective in sparrings and Windu considered her unbeatable?

"To use Vaapad, you must allow yourself to enjoy the fight. You give yourself to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning." - Vaapad is about channeling inner darkness. Windu can do it against anyone.

"Bolts splintered off in all directions; the erratic staccato of badly aimed shots took all his concentration and skill to intercept. Mace sank deeper and deeper into the Force, surrendering more and more of his conscious thought to the instinctive whirl of Vaapad, and even so some bolts slipped past him and whanged randomly around the inside of the bunker.

He was too deep in Vaapad to make a plan, too deep even to think, but he was a Jedi Master: he didn't have to think.
" - Even against blaster bolts.

Depa fought Windu - lightsider. If Vaapad doesn't work against lightsider as effectively, how comes she was "too strong, too fast, too everything"?

And there is even better example of evaluating Vaapad effectiveness. Sora Bulq fought Windu using Vaapad. Nowhere it mentions that he couldn't utilize it as effectively against Windu as he could against Dooku. In fact Dooku had a much easier victory. Had your assumption been true, Windu - Dooku's equal would be able to casually disarm Sora Bulq because of Vaapad's effectiveness against darksiders, while Dooku should have had more difficulty against Sora Bulq because Dooku is a darksider. It didn't happen, hence, your assumption of Vaapad effectiveness against darksiders is void.

Originally posted by Arhael
I am well aware of superconduit loop. Do you have a proof that the loop cannot be completed by the lightside opponent? Don't think so.

From Shatterpoint:

"Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat" - If Vaapad is ineffective against lightsiders, how comes Depa was so effective in sparrings and Windu considered her unbeatable?

"To use Vaapad, you must allow yourself to enjoy the fight. You give yourself to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning." - Vaapad is about channeling inner darkness. Windu can do it against anyone.

"Bolts splintered off in all directions; the erratic staccato of badly aimed shots took all his concentration and skill to intercept. Mace sank deeper and deeper into the Force, surrendering more and more of his conscious thought to the instinctive whirl of Vaapad, and even so some bolts slipped past him and whanged randomly around the inside of the bunker.

He was too deep in Vaapad to make a plan, too deep even to think, but he was a Jedi Master: he didn't have to think.
" - Even against blaster bolts.

Depa fought Windu - lightsider. If Vaapad doesn't work against lightsider as effectively, how comes she was "too strong, too fast, too everything"?

And there is even better example of evaluating Vaapad effectiveness. Sora Bulq fought Windu using Vaapad. Nowhere it mentions that he couldn't utilize it as effectively against Windu as he could against Dooku. In fact Dooku had a much easier victory. Had your assumption been true, Windu - Dooku's equal would be able to casually disarm Sora Bulq because of Vaapad's effectiveness against darksiders, while Dooku should have had more difficulty against Sora Bulq because Dooku is a darksider. It didn't happen, hence, your assumption of Vaapad effectiveness against darksiders is void.

You quoted stuff that literally has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I never ONCE said that you can't use Vaapad against a lightsider or it was useless. Not once. What I am saying is that if there is no dark energy to feed of off from your enemy it would've be quite as potent. Which is an undeniable fact. Wait, hold on a second. Are you claiming that Windu didn't feed off the emperor's dark side energy in their fight?

Oh boy..

Also, I like to see the proof that a super conducting loop can be achieved against a lightsider. It's not my job to prove a negative or a fallacy. Absence of proof isn't proof. We see it can happen against a darksider.. that's a fact... When did this loop happen against a lightsider?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You quoted stuff that literally has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I never ONCE said that you can't use Vaapad against a lightsider or it was useless. Not once. What I am saying is that if there is no dark energy to feed of off from your enemy it would've be quite as potent. Which is an undeniable fact. Wait, hold on a second. Are you claiming that Windu didn't feed off the emperor's dark side energy in their fight?
I know what you are saying. You assume that Vaapad is not as potent against lightsiders. I proved you wrong right there by giving example of Sora Bulq performing better against Windu, than Dooku. Or Depa outperforming Windu with Vaapad.

And yes, Windu did not feed on any sort of energy. Vaapad is a lightsaber form and state of mind, it has nothing to do with any sort of energies. If it did, it would be a Force power, which Vaapad is not.

You give assumption that Vaapad works better against darksiders, burden of proof is on you.

Wrong the superconducting loop has never happened with Vaapad against a lightsider. That burden lies SQUARELY on you to prove. Absence of proof isn't proof bud. Now, if there hasn't been one instance of it happening against a lightsider yet we know it can and has against a darksider.. that explicitly makes it better against DS than LS.. since it's never been shown to work against a LS

that isn't proof... Sora doing better against Mace than Dooku is actually the opposite of what you're tying to prove. Mace, as narration says had reservations about even fighting. If you're that hesitant about fighting surely you're not going to be bloodlusted. This example fails miserably. Dooku didn't have the same reservations. Plus, this is excluding the very well known fact that style make fights. Dooku style is very different than Mace's... Sora would obviously know Vaapad in and out and how to best utilize it and fight against it. She wouldn't have that same intricate knowledge of Dooku's which could easily explain why she didn't do as well.

now, I'll await you proving your case with a conducting loop against a LS.

The never ending Vapaad argument:


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Also, I like to see the proof that a super conducting loop can be achieved against a lightsider.


You're right that the superconducting loop only applies with a Darksider. But question is if the superconducting loop does anything physically, or amp anyone's power.

Or if it's the mental state required by Mace for the Darkness of his opponent to flow through him without effecting him.

Vapaad does after all operate on the penumbra of the Dark side, which allows Mace to go all out and enjoy the thrill of the fight, but also puts him at risk of swaying to the dark side himself. More so when fighting a Dark sider. That's where the Superconducting loop comes in.

Btw a real superconducting loop just keeps "looping" the same current continuously.

@Arhael:

I think, that it's not about dark or light, but about emotions during fight. Juyo and Vaapad generates a lot of emotions, while Makashi is not.
Windu could feed himself on Sidious' (Juyo) or Sora's (Vaapad) emotions, but he couldn't do this when he fought Dooku or Yoda.
Sora - as a Vaapad user - could possibly feed himself on Windu's emotions as well. But again, he couldn't feed himself on Dooku's emotions.

If superconducting loop made Windu equal to superior opponent, then it might made Sora equal to superior Windu as well.