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All my friends believe that superman is stronger than Goku based purely on the fact that he won on death battle. Can someone please come up with a logical explanation for why superman is better because I just dont see how it is possible for him to beat Goku.

Superman gets stronger the more sun he gets. Goku gets stronger the more he pushes himself. It's much easier to sunbathe then work out (especially after lifting tons becomes easy)

Superman has Goku beat in physicality while Goku has greater energy output.

Its much easier for Superman to grow stronger and heal himself than it is for Goku.

In terms of feats Superman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Goku.

Nothing to be ashamed of though. Most versions of Superman have been around twice as long as Goku.

Sans New 52 I guess.

But he's still stronger apparently.

Yeah that is why I said most versions. New 52 Supes has only been around for a year and a half and he is already stronger and faster based on his high showings. New 52 Supes is already FTL.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Sans New 52 I guess.

But he's still stronger apparently. New 52 Supes is definitely stronger than Goku. He has already bench pressed the weight-equivalent of earth(nearly 6 sextillion tons) for five days straight:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14937593/2663768-sm_13_1.jpg.html
So in a slugfest he's going to beat the bejesus out of Goku.

However, durability is the area in which New 52 Supes lacks the most, imo. He's already got several lower end showings in that area, and hardly any on the higher end.

Yep. He has a glass jaw.

glass cannon heroes are always fun though... HERE HE COMES TO SAVE THE DAY....(cue brick/fallingbuilding/random mook soaring through the air hitting our hero) and he's unconscious... sounds like Thor

In Kal's defense he doesn't get owned by his own fist 131

Originally posted by Galan007
New 52 Supes is definitely stronger than Goku. He has already bench pressed the weight-equivalent of earth(nearly 6 sextillion tons) for five days straight:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14937593/2663768-sm_13_1.jpg.html
So in a slugfest he's going to beat the bejesus out of Goku.

However, durability is the area in which New 52 Supes lacks the most, imo. He's already got several lower end showings in that area, and hardly any on the higher end.

Superman is stronger than critical gamma rage Savage Hulk from the WWH finale.

I know that Superman draws energy from the sun but can't Goku just draw energy from the sun too and create a spirit bomb strong enough to obliterate Supes and if the sun isn't enough he can take energy from the rest of the universe as well until it is strong enough

What is a spirit bomb, exactly?

A spherical ball of energy formed by the collection of energy from other life forms such as plants, animals, people, planets, and so on.

Genki Dama is overhyped, I doubt it could hurt Supes.

Can't it not hurt beings of pure heart?

Originally posted by COOLALLday
I know that Superman draws energy from the sun but can't Goku just draw energy from the sun too and create a spirit bomb strong enough to obliterate Supes and if the sun isn't enough he can take energy from the rest of the universe as well until it is strong enough
Well, the spirit bomb takes way too long to charge. Superman could just attack Goku while he's gathering energy.

Superman is pure of heart too, so he could just deflect the spirit bomb anyway.

Goku is all but defenseless while he's forging a Spirit Bomb... In the time it takes him to charge one, Superman could have killed him 1,000x over.

And I doubt a SB would work on Supes anyway. He's too pure of heart.

Originally posted by -Pr-
What is a spirit bomb, exactly? http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_Bomb

Originally posted by COOLALLday
I know that Superman draws energy from the sun but can't Goku just draw energy from the sun too and create a spirit bomb strong enough to obliterate Supes and if the sun isn't enough he can take energy from the rest of the universe as well until it is strong enough And Superman will just stand there and let Goku gather all the energy of the universe? The Genki Dama will not hurt Superman just like it didn't hurt Gohan.

Edit Er everyone covered it already so meh.

Better is a pretty strong word, but yes, Superman is better.

Originally posted by COOLALLday
I know that Superman draws energy from the sun but can't Goku just draw energy from the sun too and create a spirit bomb strong enough to obliterate Supes and if the sun isn't enough he can take energy from the rest of the universe as well until it is strong enough

lolGT

Anyway, the Genki Dama can't harm those pure of heart.

Superman's heart is as pure as it gets.

Superman is simply many orders of magnitude faster, stronger, and more durable (At least in terms of blunt force trauma, Goku has decent resistance towards energy blasts and shit).

Superman is better than Goku because he could splatter Goku with a single punch. Whereas Goku cannot do anything to Superman because he's like 100x slower, and has nothing in his arsenal that can harm Supes.

Like I prefer Goku as a character more than Superman but Superman can turn him to paste, Death Battle always has long battles, it's what people want to see, Superman could demolish Goku as much as I hate to admit it but I do like Supes and yeah he's been around longer too so more feats but yeah both are great heroes just one is leagues above the other unless you're using animated supes from the JLA show.


Stoked for the new DBZ movie though omg.

Yes

New DBZ movie looks terrible and you're terrible if you think otherwise.

Originally posted by NemeBro
New DBZ movie looks terrible and you're terrible if you think otherwise.

Looks great. I think you're being sarcastic?

OKay, so spirit bomb is useless. Thanks guys.

Here is the reason, Superman is boring, Goku is awesome.

Elaboration:
Goku got REALLY powerful, and it was awesome. But his character was well rounded (for the type of series) and fun. Not to mention that he surrounded himself with people who could compete with him in strength (at least when they first met), and the people he fights are generally stronger than him when they first meet, making for a much more entertaining fight.

Now, Superman is, and always has been the strongest thing around, with a couple exceptions. It got boring really fast, so they invented Kryptonite...That wasn't entertaining enough, so they "killed" him off. That killed his popularity. So they what's left? Let's make him even more powerful! So to make him more interesting, they give him more and more power all the time!

Originally posted by Galan007
New 52 Supes is definitely stronger than Goku. He has already bench pressed the weight-equivalent of earth(nearly 6 sextillion tons) for five days straight:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14937593/2663768-sm_13_1.jpg.html
So in a slugfest he's going to beat the bejesus out of Goku.

However, durability is the area in which New 52 Supes lacks the most, imo. He's already got several lower end showings in that area, and hardly any on the higher end.

It's 6.6 sextillion tons.

The scan uses metric tons (tonnes), which is a little heavier than our short tons. (2200 lbs vs 2000 lbs).

Just a tiny nitpick.

Originally posted by menokokoro
Here is the reason, Superman is boring, Goku is awesome.

Elaboration:
Goku got REALLY powerful, and it was awesome. But his character was well rounded (for the type of series) and fun. Not to mention that he surrounded himself with people who could compete with him in strength (at least when they first met), and the people he fights are generally stronger than him when they first meet, making for a much more entertaining fight.

Now, Superman is, and always has been the strongest thing around, with a couple exceptions. It got boring really fast, so they invented Kryptonite...That wasn't entertaining enough, so they "killed" him off. That killed his popularity. So they what's left? Let's make him even more powerful! So to make him more interesting, they give him more and more power all the time!

You're about twenty years out of date with that information.

Originally posted by menokokoro
Here is the reason, Superman is boring, Goku is awesome.

Elaboration:
Goku got REALLY powerful, and it was awesome. But his character was well rounded (for the type of series) and fun. Not to mention that he surrounded himself with people who could compete with him in strength (at least when they first met), and the people he fights are generally stronger than him when they first meet, making for a much more entertaining fight.

Now, Superman is, and always has been the strongest thing around, with a couple exceptions. It got boring really fast, so they invented Kryptonite...That wasn't entertaining enough, so they "killed" him off. That killed his popularity. So they what's left? Let's make him even more powerful! So to make him more interesting, they give him more and more power all the time! Funny how ignorant of Superman you really are.

Superman near as I can tell basically can only face the conflict of just being a veritable god among men. Interesting concept, not my cup of tea.

?

I'm merely assuming what people find interesting about Superman. I know nothing about the character really lol. Nor do I really care to.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I'm merely assuming what people find interesting about Superman. I know nothing about the character really lol. Nor do I really care to.

Ah. That has been an issue before, but not as much as you might think, due to his humility/childhood.

Black hair Goku is better all around.

Based on?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Based on?

Knowing DBZ.

Originally posted by carver9
Knowing DBZ. I've read the entire manga little guy, and I think you know this.

So really, based on?

Originally posted by NemeBro
I've read the entire manga little guy, and I think you know this.

So really, based on?

What Goku has done as a kid and his power level continuously growing after performing said fts.

Name said feats.

Supes is stronger, more durable and faster than Goku..so yeah..he's better than Goku..

Originally posted by menokokoro
Here is the reason, Superman is boring, Goku is awesome.

Elaboration:
Goku got REALLY powerful, and it was awesome. But his character was well rounded (for the type of series) and fun. Not to mention that he surrounded himself with people who could compete with him in strength (at least when they first met), and the people he fights are generally stronger than him when they first meet, making for a much more entertaining fight.

Now, Superman is, and always has been the strongest thing around, with a couple exceptions. It got boring really fast, so they invented Kryptonite...That wasn't entertaining enough, so they "killed" him off. That killed his popularity. So they what's left? Let's make him even more powerful! So to make him more interesting, they give him more and more power all the time!

:facepalm

So people give up on the idea of Goku being able to beat Superman, so they try to create some consolation prize that Goku is somehow the 'better' and 'deeper' character or some such, and this is played completely off their continued ignorance of Superman.

Hell no. Superman has far more thought put behind his character, and much more character development. Goku is purely a character about fighting, he's a warrior, whereas Superman is not remotely about that, but will fight when he has to.

Goku is pretty much a man-child, who will dump his family at any given moment when he finds it convenient to do so, and he's a neglectful friend as well, not bothering to keep in touch with his friends for often years at a time. Dub Goku is a little better in that regard though, as they try to force him into a more mature superhero-like role with his speeches, verbage and mannerisms, at least over his growth--so technically you could say dub Goku had some character development. Whereas Japanese Goku is, again, emphatically emphasized to a be a stunted man-child, especially with his voice actor remaining the same even when he's a grown man.

Goku's a great character, don't get me wrong, one of my favorites of all time and for a several years he was probably my absolute favorite, but not only can he not beat Superman in a fight, he's not as meaningful or impactful as Superman.

Originally posted by menokokoro
Here is the reason, Superman is boring, Goku is awesome.

Elaboration:
Goku got REALLY powerful, and it was awesome. But his character was well rounded (for the type of series) and fun. Not to mention that he surrounded himself with people who could compete with him in strength (at least when they first met), and the people he fights are generally stronger than him when they first meet, making for a much more entertaining fight.

Now, Superman is, and always has been the strongest thing around, with a couple exceptions. It got boring really fast, so they invented Kryptonite...That wasn't entertaining enough, so they "killed" him off. That killed his popularity. So they what's left? Let's make him even more powerful! So to make him more interesting, they give him more and more power all the time!

Superman/Goku

Alien/Alien
Kryptonite/Tail, hunger
Killed by Doomsday for "drama"/Killed by Raditz for "drama". Killed by Cell for "drama"
Made even more powerful/Seriously?
Holds down a job and relationships with friends and family/Shitty friend, horrible father and unemployed
Fights for selfless reasons/Fights for selfish reasons

Supes is better

haermm i lol'd. Great summary.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Based on?

His lack of Superman knowledge.

Those are reasons Superman is a more moral character than Goku.

Those are not reasons he is a better character than Goku.

Try harder juggerman.

Originally posted by juggerman
Superman/Goku

Alien/Alien

Relative.


Originally posted by juggerman
Killed by Doomsday for "drama"/Killed by Raditz for "drama". Killed by Cell for "drama"

Actually, he was only killed for dramatic purposes against Cell. Against Radditz, it was a "necessary" evil so they could defeat Radditz.

Originally posted by juggerman
Made even more powerful/Seriously?


Goku's name should be renamed to "amps."


Originally posted by juggerman
Holds down a job and relationships with friends and family/Shitty friend, horrible father and unemployed
Fights for selfless reasons/Fights for selfish reasons


I would re-write that to this:


Creepily pretends to be a regular person (or regular person pretends to be superman); has the technology to save mankind from many illnesses, problems, and diseases but hides behind a facade of self-righteousness; stalks the utter-living shit out of everyone with his super powers, and is a really good moral character/fights almost exclusively for altruistic reasons, is an excellent Saiyan father (but a poor human father), is simple-minded, and is a really good moral person.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, he was only killed for dramatic purposes against Cell. Against Radditz, it was a "necessary" evil so they could defeat Radditz.

To be honest, he never HAD to die against Radditz. He just believed what his brother said, and let go of his tail. Gokou could have just grabbed his brothers tail again.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Relative.




Actually, he was only killed for dramatic purposes against Cell. Against Radditz, it was a "necessary" evil so they could defeat Radditz.




Goku's name should be renamed to "amps."





I would re-write that to this:


Creepily pretends to be a regular person (or regular person pretends to be superman); has the technology to save mankind from many illnesses, problems, and diseases but hides behind a facade of self-righteousness; stalks the utter-living shit out of everyone with his super powers, and is a really good moral character/fights almost exclusively for altruistic reasons, is an excellent Saiyan father (but a poor human father), is simple-minded, and is a really good moral person.

You could do that, but it wouldn't be true, at least not with Superman.

but i'm sure that was your point.

Originally posted by NemeBro

So really, based on? A ridiculous amount of assumptions.

Oh don't worry, I've been smashing carver for as long as he has been on the site IIRC, I am well-aware of his wacky antics.

Originally posted by juggerman
Fights for selfless reasons/Fights for selfish reasons I don't think I can agree that Goku fights for selfish reasons.

Right now I feel as if people really are underestmating Goku right now because they are looking what he has done and not what he could do. Just because he has not done so does not mean that he cannot destroy an entire solar system if he wanted to. He caused several earthquake just by turning SS3. He may not be portrayed as being invincible but he has the strenght to give anyone a hell of a fight

You guys are making a mistake. The Spirit Bomb can be touched a deflected by someone with a pure heart however it is still possible for it to hurt anyone. Beside that how would Supes even know that he could redirect it in the first place. If you dont believe my look up The Spirit Bomb on Google and go to dragonball wikia. Also why cant Goku just teleport Superman to a planet with a red sun where he would eventually lose his strength. He may be a goof but he knows alittle something about strategy and how to find weaknesses.

No limits fallacies and faith based claims don't apply.

How would Goku even realize Superman is powered by the Sun and that Red Sunlight weakens him anyway? He can't read his mind, so he has no way of finding out from a simple fight with basic parameters with no extraneous information given.

And if Goku has to use red sunlight to win, that's just an admission on his part that Superman is too strong for him normally.

If they are fighting 'in character', then it will be a good fight because Superman scales to his opposition, and Goku wants to fight people at their best and isn't underhanded.

If they are fighting 'out of character', Superman could just fry Goku's brain in the first femtosecond of the fight.

Vegeta > Goku as a character.

That is all.

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/g_serious.gif

Originally posted by Damborgson
Vegeta > Goku as a character.

That is all.

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/g_serious.gif http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8h44wKbI71qkgxf0o1_500.gif

Originally posted by NemeBro
Oh don't worry, I've been smashing carver for as long as he has been on the site IIRC, I am well-aware of his wacky antics.


Nothing wacky about what I said. On a consistent basis...Goku is...

Faster combat wise.
Stronger
Hits harder
More powerful
More durable
Better fighter
And would run through Superman enemies.

This is on average. Using high end fts, you MIGHT have an argument for him being more powerful than black hair Goku.

Originally posted by carver9
Nothing wacky about what I said. On a consistent basis...Goku is...

Faster combat wise.
Stronger
Hits harder
More powerful
More durable
Better fighter
And would run through Superman enemies.

This is on average. Using high end fts, you MIGHT have an argument for him being more powerful than black hair Goku.

Prove all of this.

*Waits for carver to do something hilarious like bring up that Goku can beat up Toyman in a fight*

Actually, you don't need to prove he is a better fighter, that alone is true.

Originally posted by -Pr-
You could do that, but it wouldn't be true, at least not with Superman.

but i'm sure that was your point.

The re-write was in two forms: first half is superman and the second half was Goku. Both are true.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The re-write was in two forms: first half is superman and the second half was Goku. Both are true.

I know that it was in two forms. That wasn't what I was referring to.

What version of Superman are you talking about? Because if you mean comic Superman, then you're way off base on some of those points.

He is obviously using the "Superman is a dumb american dictator that sucks ass" version.

Maybe, I dunno.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I know that it was in two forms. That wasn't what I was referring to.

What version of Superman are you talking about? Because if you mean comic Superman, then you're way off base on some of those points.

So Superman does not creepily disguise himself as Clark Kent in the comic book version? He also does not have technology that surpasses the main-public's technology that could be used for the betterment of mankind, in general? He also is not a good moral person? He doesn't use his super powers to stalk the entire planet (listens in for danger and situations...makes use of his X-ray vision, etc.)? And, yes, Superman is generally self-righteous. A very irritating character trait that is supposed to be a recurring theme.

If so, then, sir, you are not reading Comic Book Superman and, instead, have confused Superman for a different character.

Whats creepy about him wanting to live the life he's been living since he was a child?
What technology? He has access to Kryptonian technology, sure, but it's never been stated that he could cure any major disease with it. Betterment of mankind? Howso?
He is a good, moral person, yes.
He listens to the world, yes, but only in a very general sense. He doesn't eavesdrop on conversation. It's like listening for a scream in a crowd; you don't hear anything you're not supposed to be hearing. X-ray vision? No, not unless he has to.
Self-righteous in what sense? That he believes what he's doing is right?

I read Superman every month, across all of his books.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Whats creepy about him wanting to live the life he's been living since he was a child?
What technology? He has access to Kryptonian technology, sure, but it's never been stated that he could cure any major disease with it. Betterment of mankind? Howso?
He is a good, moral person, yes.
He listens to the world, yes, but only in a very general sense. He doesn't eavesdrop on conversation. It's like listening for a scream in a crowd; you don't hear anything you're not supposed to be hearing. X-ray vision? No, not unless he has to.
Self-righteous in what sense? That he believes what he's doing is right?

I read Superman every month, across all of his books.

Superman's technology is a double edged sword. It can be used for the bettermen of mankind but it can also be used to **** shit up. He is right keeping it away from mankind's filthy hands.

Half of the time, the military is building weapons to take him out. Should he really be helping them accomplish that goal?

Hell, even Batman has tech that would benefit humanity, and he doesn't share it.

Black Panther apparently has the cure to cancer but does not share it.

Talk about being a douche.

Yeah, but he's the kind of ******* that reads science textbooks on his honeymoon, so...

I mean, if that was me, and Storm... Furniture would be broken, my friend.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Whats creepy about him wanting to live the life he's been living since he was a child?

What's creepy about him masquerading as a weak human that acts timid, has poor balance, and all the other things he is actually not? What is creepy about a forced dissociative identity disorder? Oh, nothing at all.


Originally posted by -Pr-
What technology? He has access to Kryptonian technology, sure, but it's never been stated that he could cure any major disease with it. Betterment of mankind? Howso?

Yeah, pretty much the Eradicator, alone, makes you wrong. And Kelex seems to be able to create cures for even extremely potent diseases. Do you remember when Superman got the xarxas virus?

That's some 24th Century Star Trek level shit.



Originally posted by -Pr-
He is a good, moral person, yes.
He listens to the world, yes, but only in a very general sense.

It is still invasive and creepy as hell. His self-righteous attitude justifies his doing this...but it still does not make it any less creepy or invasive.


Originally posted by -Pr-
He doesn't eavesdrop on conversation. It's like listening for a scream in a crowd; you don't hear anything you're not supposed to be hearing.

Sorry, that's not how it works. You can claim he doesn't pay attention to it but he literally pays attention in order to pick up those screams you mention. He has used it for creepy endeavors in the past such as listening in on stuff Lois has said. There's no way you can justify what he does as anything less than invasive and creepy: Superman just has the benefit of almost always using it for good...generally.


Originally posted by -Pr-
X-ray vision? No, not unless he has to.
Self-righteous in what sense? That he believes what he's doing is right?

That he believes he is righteous and his decisions are righteous...such as holding back technology that could really improve the human condition.


Originally posted by -Pr-
I read Superman every month, across all of his books.

But you forgot about really important details that makes all of your rebuttals wrong. I haven't read Superman in ages and I can remember some important things.

You know what that really tells me? You do remember and are ignoring those because you do not like my very much valid and spot-on criticisms of Superman's character.

Originally posted by dadudemon
What's creepy about him masquerading as a weak human that acts timid, has poor balance, and all the other things he is actually not? What is creepy about a forced dissociative identity disorder? Oh, nothing at all.




Yeah, pretty much the Eradicator, alone, makes you wrong. And Kelex seems to be able to create cures for even extremely potent diseases. Do you remember when Superman got the xarxas virus?

That's some 24th Century Star Trek level shit.





It is still invasive and creepy as hell. His self-righteous attitude justifies his doing this...but it still does not make it any less creepy or invasive.




Sorry, that's not how it works. You can claim he doesn't pay attention to it but he literally pays attention in order to pick up those screams you mention. He has used it for creepy endeavors in the past such as listening in on stuff Lois has said. There's no way you can justify what he does as anything less than invasive and creepy: Superman just has the benefit of almost always using it for good...generally.




That he believes he is righteous and his decisions are righteous...such as holding back technology that could really improve the human condition.




But you forgot about really important details that makes all of your rebuttals wrong. I haven't read Superman in ages and I can remember some important things.

You know what that really tells me? You do remember and are ignoring those because you do not like my very much valid and spot-on criticisms of Superman's character.

How does Superman have any sort of multiple personality disorder?

The Eradicator? Really? The single biggest reason why Kryptonian technology can get WAY out of control, is a reason why they should share technology? Not to mention how much of that has been retconned.

The xarxas virus almost killed Superman, and it was only through the fluke of Bizarro, iirc, that they were able to come up with a cure at all. And it was a Kryptonian disease, not a human one.

How is it invasive to listen for screams or calls for help? He's not digging in to people's personal lives any more than a good samaritan.

I disagree; It is how it works almost all of the time. Lois is only a special case because of how much trouble she gets herself in to. Random Joe in Cleveland isn't having his privacy invaded by Superman any more than Billy in Gotham or Bob in Coast City.

Why should he give humanity technology in the first place?

I haven't forgotten anything. I just don't agree with your assessment. You say I'm ignoring them, which is in itself a false assumption. I can disagree and have as much validity to my point as you do to yours. To you, it's valid. To me it isn't.

Originally posted by -Pr-
How does Superman have any sort of multiple personality disorder?

"What's creepy about him masquerading as a weak human that acts timid, has poor balance, and all the other things he is actually not? What is creepy about a forced dissociative identity disorder? Oh, nothing at all."


Originally posted by -Pr-
The Eradicator? Really? The single biggest reason why Kryptonian technology can get WAY out of control, is a reason why they should share technology? Not to mention how much of that has been retconned.

Yeah, that one machine that just so happens to posses the sum-total of Kryptonian knowledge. That other stuff is irrelevant. How is curing most diseases could "get out of control."

Originally posted by -Pr-
The xarxas virus almost killed Superman, and it was only through the fluke of Bizarro, iirc, that they were able to come up with a cure at all. And it was a Kryptonian disease, not a human one.

Every single point you made is irrelevant to the point I made. The point I made was ridiculous disease was cured through Kryptonian technology that humans do not posses. It does matter what the attack vector was, the incubation requirements, etc. What matters is it was a very deadly disease that was able to be cured with "24th Century Star Trek level shit."

Originally posted by -Pr-
How is it invasive to listen for screams or calls for help? He's not digging in to people's personal lives any more than a good samaritan.

Simple: one is passive the other is active.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I disagree; It is how it works almost all of the time. Lois is only a special case because of how much trouble she gets herself in to. Random Joe in Cleveland isn't having his privacy invaded by Superman any more than Billy in Gotham or Bob in Coast City.

Translation: "That is how it works, man, except when it doesn't work that way."

Not only is that pretty much irrelevant to my actual point, it directly proves you wrong.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Why should he give humanity technology in the first place?

Your question is very much malformed and it does not fairly represent my point. Context is key.

What I said was this: "That he believes he is righteous and his decisions are righteous...such as holding back technology that could really improve the human condition." That "technology" was a direct reference to what I had said, earlier, here:

"...has the technology to save mankind from many illnesses, problems, and diseases."

Granted, the wording could lead one to believe that "problems" means something other than medical science but I can clarify, now, and say that I was only referring to the medical science by problems. For example, a knee injury that greatly reduces mobility. That is not a disease but it is a medical problem that many humans face. Kel certainly has the technology and resources to assist man with those types of problems. His medical technology is superior, in some ways, to what 24th Century Star Trek has.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I haven't forgotten anything.

I agree. That's why I said this:

"You do remember..."


Originally posted by -Pr-
I just don't agree with your assessment.

I know because I said this:

"...you do not like my very much valid and spot-on criticisms of Superman's character. "

Originally posted by -Pr-
You say I'm ignoring them, which is in itself a false assumption.

You are ignoring some of the actual points I made and I pointed it out in this post when you did.


Originally posted by -Pr-
I can disagree and have as much validity to my point as you do to yours. To you, it's valid. To me it isn't.

You can only disagree with the morality of the points, not the points themselves. That does not make much sense, probably, so I'll better explain:


Superman holds back technology from humans: fact. You cannot disagree with this.

The point of contention is whether or not he should hold back technology from humans. I say it is self-righteous of him to do so in some cases such as awesome medical technology. You probably disagree. However, you disagreed for irrelevant reasons because you think I meant giving the technology to make crazy scary machines and AI like Eradicator.



Superman directly explores two personalities: fact. You cannot disagree with this.

I find it mildly creepy and you do not. That is something I cannot change about your opinion nor you mine.




Superman stalks people and actively invades privacy: fact. You cannot disagree with this.

We disagree on whether or not he is justified or it is for the greater good.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Those are reasons Superman is a more moral character than Goku.

Those are not reasons he is a better character than Goku.

Try harder juggerman.

Meh it was just me being silly

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't think I can agree that Goku fights for selfish reasons.

He mostly fights to get stronger and test his ablities. Sure he saves the world but i think the 1st part is more important to him

Huh. Never really thought of Superman the way Cinnabun thinks of him. I'm calling Abhi.

I see Carter is still flaunting his ignorant fanboyism.

If it's any consolation, while I agree with the result of the Death Battle video, their methods of quantification and analysis were, for the most part, complete bullshit.

Didn't Death Battle give a large leg up to Goku with those calcs and use of SS4?

Yes they did, especially the recreation. It is obvious, after looking at the numbers and in a real stuation, that superman wins.

Just pick your most creative way in which he could win.

I realized a new one recently, with his laser beams. Not so long ago I didn't know it has the power to burn a planet.

Originally posted by COOLALLday
I know that Superman draws energy from the sun but can't Goku just draw energy from the sun too and create a spirit bomb strong enough to obliterate Supes and if the sun isn't enough he can take energy from the rest of the universe as well until it is strong enough I'm sorry to say but the spirit bomb doesn't even enter the equation because the spirit bomb doesn't hurt people who are pure of heart, and everyone knows that superman is every bit as pure as goku.

Originally posted by juggerman
He mostly fights to get stronger and test his ablities. Sure he saves the world but i think the 1st part is more important to him Come on fighting may be goku's greatest passion and it may be what he lives for but protecting innocent people and the people he cares about will always come first, hell how many times has he been prepared to sacrifice his life to save the world or universe. Goku cares about innocent life so much that even the lives of animals is as valuable as any other, seeing a bird die pushed him over the edge and turned him into a super saiyan when he was fighting Cooler, heck he even offers his greatest enemies a chance to change and a chance to live. So make no mistake fighting may be his passion but protecting innocent people who cannot defend themselves is what he has dedicated his life to, and is why he trains himself and others.

Super saiyan 3 goku fighting kid buu was tearing apart the whole planet they where fighting on from mostly their energy levels and the shock waves of their blows so imagine 17 years of training then transforming to super saiyan 4 and then ascending to a much higher level of super saiyan 4 to topple Syn shenron, imagine what and ascended super saiyan 4 level fight would do. So even if Superman is still stronger we can still agree that Goku has unlimited potential and can catch up to Supes, maybe even surpass him.

"So what happens when you pit a man who has the power to break any limits, against another who has no limits in the first place? Well, only one has limits to give at all."

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
"So what happens when you pit a man who has the power to break any limits, against another who has no limits in the first place? Well, only one has limits to give at all." So what your saying superman has infinite strength and speed and invulnerability, that's a load of bull even superman has upper limits, even with his powers evolving. So Goku can catch up with enough motivation.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
Come on fighting may be goku's greatest passion and it may be what he lives for but protecting innocent people and the people he cares about will always come first, hell how many times has he been prepared to sacrifice his life to save the world or universe. Goku cares about innocent life so much that even the lives of animals is as valuable as any other, seeing a bird die pushed him over the edge and turned him into a super saiyan when he was fighting Cooler, heck he even offers his greatest enemies a chance to change and a chance to live. So make no mistake fighting may be his passion but protecting innocent people who cannot defend themselves is what he has dedicated his life to, and is why he trains himself and others.
Thing is Goku protects the world like a child, understandable given how he was raised and grew up. For instances like his tenancy to let people off the hook;
-Letting Piccolo and Vegeta go so he can fight them again, even when they both swore their revenge on the planet.
-Letting DB's second biggest tyrant survive by offering up his power. The planet killing, genocidal, slave driver that enslaved and killed his race, was wiping out the peaceful namekians including kids, killed a child that was healing his friends, killed the guy that was saving his friends asses (after Vegeta's sob story), killed his best friend, heavily beat up and tried to kill his rival/friend and son, and who knows where your planet is with the means to get there and destroy it. Just for sudden mercy when he was bloodlusted a moment earlier.
-Getting Cell to full strength just to let Gohan have a go. Even though it took a death to allow Gohan to get go SS2, cost his life, King Kai, Bubbles and their planet, and only made a stronger Cell that could have possibly defeated and killed everyone.
-Not killing the universes largest threat (Buu who destroyed hundreds of planets) when he had the chance and said he could have, only so that Gohan, Goten and Trunks could have a go. Killed 1/10th of the population in their fight, ending with Buu wiping out the whole earth population minus a dozen, going on the kill and/or consume his friends and family, and then the destruction of Earth.

2 threats so he can fight again, 1 for mercy, 2 so others can fight them.

He's doing it in good spirits, not its not all that well thought out or for everyones well being.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
Super saiyan 3 goku fighting kid buu was tearing apart the whole planet they where fighting on from mostly their energy levels and the shock waves of their blows so imagine 17 years of training then transforming to super saiyan 4 and then ascending to a much higher level of super saiyan 4 to topple Syn shenron, imagine what and ascended super saiyan 4 level fight would do. So even if Superman is still stronger we can still agree that Goku has unlimited potential and can catch up to Supes, maybe even surpass him.

DB:O (not sure if canon, but more canon than GT as Akira was heavily involved in it), 27 years after the Buu saga Goku and Vegeta go off to have a final to-the-death battle, ends with scientists detecting a supernova. So in this, those two at their max were suicidally at a Star to Solar System level.

Anyhow, I'm not sure if Goku could ever be stronger. Meh.



Oh, and Superman's powers keep increasing too. Superman Prime I think?

superdur

Originally posted by BloodRain
Thing is Goku protects the world like a child, understandable given how he was raised and grew up. For instances like his tenancy to let people off the hook;
-Letting Piccolo and Vegeta go so he can fight them again, even when they both swore their revenge on the planet.
-Letting DB's second biggest tyrant survive by offering up his power. The planet killing, genocidal, slave driver that enslaved and killed his race, was wiping out the peaceful namekians including kids, killed a child that was healing his friends, killed the guy that was saving his friends asses (after Vegeta's sob story), killed his best friend, heavily beat up and tried to kill his rival/friend and son, and who knows where your planet is with the means to get there and destroy it. Just for sudden mercy when he was bloodlusted a moment earlier.
-Getting Cell to full strength just to let Gohan have a go. Even though it took a death to allow Gohan to get go SS2, cost his life, King Kai, Bubbles and their planet, and only made a stronger Cell that could have possibly defeated and killed everyone.
-Not killing the universes largest threat (Buu who destroyed hundreds of planets) when he had the chance and said he could have, only so that Gohan, Goten and Trunks could have a go. Killed 1/10th of the population in their fight, ending with Buu wiping out the whole earth population minus a dozen, going on the kill and/or consume his friends and family, and then the destruction of Earth.

2 threats so he can fight again, 1 for mercy, 2 so others can fight them.

He's doing it in good spirits, not its not all that well thought out or for everyones well being.



DB:O (not sure if canon, but more canon than GT as Akira was heavily involved in it), 27 years after the Buu saga Goku and Vegeta go off to have a final to-the-death battle, ends with scientists detecting a supernova. So in this, those two at their max were suicidally at a Star to Solar System level.

Anyhow, I'm not sure if Goku could ever be stronger. Meh.



Oh, and Superman's powers keep increasing too. Superman Prime I think? Goku detected good in both Piccolo and Vegeta, and Vegeta was the only other saiyan like himself left so Goku wanted to give them a chance to change, and Goku would take responsibility for what they do up to that point, and Piccolo and Vegeta became heroes like Goku hoped they would. As for Frieza it was pretty naive of Goku but he believes everyone deserves a chance to change their ways, its not that Goku forgave Frieza its just Goku didn't want to kill anyone, and when Frieza started begging for his life Goku's conscience couldn't resist giving him a helping hand to live. The battle with Frieza taught Goku that there are some people who are beyond help and that fighting them is a fight to the death because they won't ever give up even when the good guys become stronger than them they won't give up trying and won't give up their evil ways, they are too dangerous to the universe and every living soul in it. With cell Goku giving him a senzu bean was just because Goku has a strong belief in fairness and Goku had a lot of faith in Gohan, and Goku knew Gohan had a huge hidden power that would be unlocked during his battle with cell. With Goku not finishing Buu when he had the chance it is because he wanted to give Gohan, Goten and Trunks a chance to save the world, he wants them to take up his mantle because Goku knows he won't be around forever and they can't rely on someone to drop from the heavens to save them, they have to learn to protect themselves, which was also naive of him because no one ever manages to fill Goku's shoes, I doubt even Goku jr will be able to.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
Goku detected good in both Piccolo and Vegeta, and Vegeta was the only other saiyan like himself left so Goku wanted to give them a chance to change, and Goku would take responsibility for what they do up to that point, and Piccolo and Vegeta became heroes like Goku hoped they would. As for Frieza it was pretty naive of Goku but he believes everyone deserves a chance to change their ways, its not that Goku forgave Frieza its just Goku didn't want to kill anyone, and when Frieza started begging for his life Goku's conscience couldn't resist giving him a helping hand to live. The battle with Frieza taught Goku that there are some people who are beyond help and that fighting them is a fight to the death because they won't ever give up even when the good guys become stronger than them they won't give up trying and won't give up their evil ways, they are too dangerous to the universe and every living soul in it. With cell Goku giving him a senzu bean was just because Goku has a strong belief in fairness and Goku had a lot of faith in Gohan, and Goku knew Gohan had a huge hidden power that would be unlocked during his battle with cell. With Goku not finishing Buu when he had the chance it is because he wanted to give Gohan, Goten and Trunks a chance to save the world, he wants them to take up his mantle because Goku knows he won't be around forever and they can't rely on someone to drop from the heavens to save them, they have to learn to protect themselves, which was also naive of him because no one ever manages to fill Goku's shoes, I doubt even Goku jr will be able to.

You really didn't counter anything he said.....

And you kinda shot yourself in the foot with "he wants them to take up his mantle because Goku knows he won't be around forever and they can't rely on someone to drop from the heavens to save them" cuz that's exactly what happens anyway.

EDIT: He made a bad call based on bad judgement.

Originally posted by juggerman
You really didn't counter anything he said.....

And you kinda shot yourself in the foot with "he wants them to take up his mantle because Goku knows he won't be around forever and they can't rely on someone to drop from the heavens to save them" cuz that's exactly what happens anyway.

EDIT: He made a bad call based on bad judgement. Someone has to take over from Goku because Goku isn't immortal, its not Goku's fault that the people with that potential don't have anything like Goku's drive or training ethic. Goku had to come back to life because Gohan messed up again like he did with cell, he spent that much time playing around that he allowed the villain to turn the tables on him, you'd think Gohan would have learned his lesson from last time when fighting like that cost him his fathers life, but he did it again and it cost him his little brother, Trunks and Piccolo. And Majuub Goku's so called protege couldn't even win his first fight and was reduced to nothing when super 17 showed up. So Goku still has to keep trying, its just no one seems to have the qualities that makes Goku the universe's hero and champion. The point I was arguing was that you can't really knock any of Goku's decisions, even the naive ones are done out of faith, mercy, righteousness and thinking ahead.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
Someone has to take over from Goku because Goku isn't immortal, its not Goku's fault that the people with that potential don't have anything like Goku's drive or training ethic. Goku had to come back to life because Gohan messed up again like he did with cell, he spent that much time playing around that he allowed the villain to turn the tables on him, you'd think Gohan would have learned his lesson from last time when fighting like that cost him his fathers life, but he did it again and it cost him his little brother, Trunks and Piccolo. And Majuub Goku's so called protege couldn't even win his first fight and was reduced to nothing when super 17 showed up. So Goku still has to keep trying, its just no one seems to have the qualities that makes Goku the universe's hero and champion. The point I was arguing was that you can't really knock any of Goku's decisions, even the naive ones are done out of faith, mercy, righteousness and thinking ahead.

And Goku makes the same mistake he made with Cell. "Oh this villian can be defeated easily but instead of that let's draw it out as much as possible so more people die!!!!" He allowed Cell to power up so Gohan could fight him, which ended in death and he allowed Buu to live so the kids could fight him which ended in much more death

Originally posted by juggerman
And Goku makes the same mistake he made with Cell. "Oh this villian can be defeated easily but instead of that let's draw it out as much as possible so more people die!!!!" He allowed Cell to power up so Gohan could fight him, which ended in death and he allowed Buu to live so the kids could fight him which ended in much more death What mistake with cell, Goku knew there was no way he could beat cell but he knew Gohan had the power inside him to do it, and even if Goku hadn't given cell the senzu bean and Gohan starts beating cell, cell would still try self destructing and then come back as super perfect cell and Gohan wouldn't have the super saiyan 2 form to stop him and the universe would be doomed. And with buu there was always going to be a lot of casualties but that was the point of Goku's plan with the dragon balls to undo all the damage. Besides Goku said himself that it may have been impossible for him to win because buu was getting stronger and he was getting weaker, at least with Goku's plan there was a sure fire way to beat buu, besides there was alot more at stake than just the earth the universe too was at stake, Goku couldn't afford to gamble it all on a maybe he could win.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
What mistake with cell, Goku knew there was no way he could beat cell but he knew Gohan had the power inside him to do it, and even if Goku hadn't given cell the senzu bean and Gohan starts beating cell, cell would still try self destructing and then come back as super perfect cell and Gohan wouldn't have the super saiyan 2 form to stop him and the universe would be doomed. And with buu there was always going to be a lot of casualties but that was the point of Goku's plan with the dragon balls to undo all the damage. Besides Goku said himself that it may have been impossible for him to win because buu was getting stronger and he was getting weaker, at least with Goku's plan there was a sure fire way to beat buu, besides there was alot more at stake than just the earth the universe too was at stake, Goku couldn't afford to gamble it all on a maybe he could win.

Sorry i didn't clarify. I meant healing Cell. That was stupid. Cell would have still pissed Gohan off enough to go SSJ2 once he heard about his rage.

There wasn't a sure fire way to beat Buu since Goku's plan went to hell as soon as Buu transformed. Once that happened no even SSJ3 Gotenks(who is superior to SSJ3 Goku by no small amount) stood no chance. Goku admitted later that he could have killed Majin Buu, and effectively saved billions of lives including his entire family, but simply chose no to. Then later he admits once again he could have kill Kid Buu but again chose not to which again put countless lives in danger once again.

Then to top it all off had Buu killed Dende and Hercule they would have lost, and Buu would have countinued his killing spree. He had no control over who Buu spared and got lucky the people he needed later happened to be alive.

Originally posted by juggerman
Sorry i didn't clarify. I meant healing Cell. That was stupid. Cell would have still pissed Gohan off enough to go SSJ2 once he heard about his rage.

There wasn't a sure fire way to beat Buu since Goku's plan went to hell as soon as Buu transformed. Once that happened no even SSJ3 Gotenks(who is superior to SSJ3 Goku by no small amount) stood no chance. Goku admitted later that he could have killed Majin Buu, and effectively saved billions of lives including his entire family, but simply chose no to. Then later he admits once again he could have kill Kid Buu but again chose not to which again put countless lives in danger once again.

Then to top it all off had Buu killed Dende and Hercule they would have lost, and Buu would have countinued his killing spree. He had no control over who Buu spared and got lucky the people he needed later happened to be alive. So either decision Goku made with healing or not healing cell the result would have been the same and Goku knew it, and the decision with buu was made before Goku knew buu could transform, and with kid buu Goku had even less of a chance, plus it was Goku's decision to save Dende and Mr Satan.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
So either decision Goku made with healing or not healing cell the result would have been the same and Goku knew it, and the decision with buu was made before Goku knew buu could transform, and with kid buu Goku had even less of a chance, plus it was Goku's decision to save Dende and Mr Satan.

Yes but Gohan would have been fighting a much weaker Cell possibly resulting in Cell's defeat much sooner with the deaths of Goku, King Kai, Gergory, Bubbles, and Trunks. I know Cell could have possibly come back but it is much less likely it would have happened since we see a Kamehameha from a weakened Gohan was more than enough to destroy a much stornger verson of Cell completely.

Every single major threat he's faced in the recent past could transform, he was just being an idiot. He didn't even know for sure that the kids would even have enough power to kill Fat Buu. He was just guessing. And he admitted he could have killed Kid Buu had he wanted to but chose not to so Vegeta could have a turn. Giving Vegeta the first go would have solved that issue completely.

He saved them from the explosion but he had no clue they would be left alive in the first place. Had Buu killed them along with everyone else, or blew up the Earth upon leaving the Time Chamber, he would have been SOL. He got lucky events played out in that particular way, Otherwise he would have been killed.

Originally posted by juggerman
Yes but Gohan would have been fighting a much weaker Cell possibly resulting in Cell's defeat much sooner with the deaths of Goku, King Kai, Gergory, Bubbles, and Trunks. I know Cell could have possibly come back but it is much less likely it would have happened since we see a Kamehameha from a weakened Gohan was more than enough to destroy a much stornger verson of Cell completely.

Every single major threat he's faced in the recent past could transform, he was just being an idiot. He didn't even know for sure that the kids would even have enough power to kill Fat Buu. He was just guessing. And he admitted he could have killed Kid Buu had he wanted to but chose not to so Vegeta could have a turn. Giving Vegeta the first go would have solved that issue completely.

He saved them from the explosion but he had no clue they would be left alive in the first place. Had Buu killed them along with everyone else, or blew up the Earth upon leaving the Time Chamber, he would have been SOL. He got lucky events played out in that particular way, Otherwise he would have been killed. Come on Goku was pretty damn confident they could beat fat buu with super saiyan fusion, and even if super buu destroyed the earth after leaving the time chamber Goku would still have the namekian dragon balls that they used to restore earth and the people on it for the spirit bomb and to restore Goku's power to create the super spirit bomb during their fight against kid buu. And even if Goku faced alot of people who can transform it still didn't enter his head that the fat buu could, and I think if kid buu can overtake a spirit bomb with that much energy I think he can handle what ever a fresh super saiyan 3 can dish out.

yes, and what happened from that continuous dependence on the dragonball that goku had? <.<

Goku guessed that the boys would be stronger than him. All Goku knew was that Goten and Trunks were /attempting/ to fuse. Not knowing if they could as they just found out about it.

Besides that he had no idea that Gotenks would go beyond SS1, and absolutely no reason to assume they'd get to SS3 seeing as its something he himself only managed to get to with great stress.

To Goku's knowledge, assuming they could master Fusion, he'd only know them to be SS1 who is equal to SS3 Goku.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
Goku detected good in both Piccolo and Vegeta, and Vegeta was the only other saiyan like himself left so Goku wanted to give them a chance to change, and Goku would take responsibility for what they do up to that point, and Piccolo and Vegeta became heroes like Goku hoped they would. As for Frieza it was pretty naive of Goku but he believes everyone deserves a chance to change their ways, its not that Goku forgave Frieza its just Goku didn't want to kill anyone, and when Frieza started begging for his life Goku's conscience couldn't resist giving him a helping hand to live. The battle with Frieza taught Goku that there are some people who are beyond help and that fighting them is a fight to the death because they won't ever give up even when the good guys become stronger than them they won't give up trying and won't give up their evil ways, they are too dangerous to the universe and every living soul in it. With cell Goku giving him a senzu bean was just because Goku has a strong belief in fairness and Goku had a lot of faith in Gohan, and Goku knew Gohan had a huge hidden power that would be unlocked during his battle with cell. With Goku not finishing Buu when he had the chance it is because he wanted to give Gohan, Goten and Trunks a chance to save the world, he wants them to take up his mantle because Goku knows he won't be around forever and they can't rely on someone to drop from the heavens to save them, they have to learn to protect themselves, which was also naive of him because no one ever manages to fill Goku's shoes, I doubt even Goku jr will be able to.
Goku said nothing about seeing good in them, and iirc had no idea that he was the last of his kind.

Goku has already killed common bad guys before, someone like Freeza should be no question. Like not holding back with the spirit bomb.

As Juggerman said, he made a bad move because of his own idea and at the worst possible times. Against foes that don't care for life and will destroy planets on whims.

No one is saying that goku isn't a good guy, he is. He's also an idiot though.

Piccolo, Vegeta, ok sure, Goku's intuition did him good. Saving Frieza though was phucking retarded on his part. Having Gohan fight cell is understandable to a point, giving Cell a senzu is not. Same with not killing fat buu and instead leaving the fate of earth in the hands of some kids who may or may not achieve what he hopes they will.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Goku guessed that the boys would be stronger than him. All Goku knew was that Goten and Trunks were /attempting/ to fuse. Not knowing if they could as they just found out about it.

Besides that he had no idea that Gotenks would go beyond SS1, and absolutely no reason to assume they'd get to SS3 seeing as its something he himself only managed to get to with great stress.

To Goku's knowledge, assuming they could master Fusion, he'd only know them to be SS1 who is equal to SS3 Goku.


Goku said nothing about seeing good in them, and iirc had no idea that he was the last of his kind.

Goku has already killed common bad guys before, someone like Freeza should be no question. Like not holding back with the spirit bomb.

As Juggerman said, he made a bad move because of his own idea and at the worst possible times. Against foes that don't care for life and will destroy planets on whims. Goku didn't think Gotenks would have to go any higher than super saiyan to beat the fat majin buu, they only had to do that to beat super buu.

And how many times do I have to say it, Goku put his faith in his kids and Trunks because he can't do everything for them forever, he needs to ready the next generation and there's no better way than experience on the battle field. What would happen if Goku is dead and can't come back when a new villain appears and there not ready to handle it themselves, I'll tell you everyone would die, the planet would be destroyed and then the rest of the universe would be wiped out. And look what his decision to not beat Fat Buu created, it created the fusion idea which created Gotenks, Gogeta and Vegito, ultimate Gohan and the restored faith in the spirit bomb. Plus it created Uub and then Majuub who helped save everyone's bacon against baby, so that one decision to not kill Fat Buu himself had quite the domino affect for saving them in the future, it also gave reason for Goku to come back to life in the first place to save them from Buu, Hirudagarn and then the new Bills god of destruction, and then to become super saiyan 4 and beat baby, super 17 and the shadow dragons. So imagine what would have happened if Goku hadn't made that decision, the next villain would have won and would continue to destroy the universe. Any way does anyone else feel we've strayed off the point of this thread to argue about Goku AGAIN?

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
No one is saying that goku isn't a good guy, he is. He's also an idiot though.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
Come on Goku was pretty damn confident they could beat fat buu with super saiyan fusion, and even if super buu destroyed the earth after leaving the time chamber Goku would still have the namekian dragon balls that they used to restore earth and the people on it for the spirit bomb and to restore Goku's power to create the super spirit bomb during their fight against kid buu. And even if Goku faced alot of people who can transform it still didn't enter his head that the fat buu could, and I think if kid buu can overtake a spirit bomb with that much energy I think he can handle what ever a fresh super saiyan 3 can dish out.

And he was wrong as they faced Fat Buu and got their shit pushed in. I doubt he thought they could go SSJ after they fused since iirc Piccolo was suprised they did. If Super Buu destroyed the Earth, Goku would have lost the fight due to Hercule not convincing the people to give the energy required to create the Spirit Bomb. Goku clearly stated that he could have easily killed Kid Buu when he was fresh so your opinion really donesn't carry any weight since it's canonly contradicted by a being very familar with energy levels and what not.

He made one bad call after another and only won due to getting lucky that events played out a certain way. Had he actually planned these things then you'd have a point but it's clearly shown he was just trying to make the best out of a bad situation , that he caused, and was extremely lucky he had what he needed to have things work out.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
No one is saying that goku isn't a good guy, he is. He's also an idiot though.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
Goku didn't think Gotenks would have to go any higher than super saiyan to beat the fat majin buu, they only had to do that to beat super buu.
No idea if they would succeed in Fusion or how strong they would be. Less as it was only due to the HTime chamber that their SS1 form was as strong as Goku's SS3 form.

Its the same as him having no idea that Gohan would have the trigger to go SS2.
Originally posted by KAIKAGE
And how many times do I have to say it, Goku put his faith in his kids and Trunks because he can't do everything for them forever, he needs to ready the next generation and there's no better way than experience on the battle field. What would happen if Goku is dead and can't come back when a new villain appears and there not ready to handle it themselves, I'll tell you everyone would die, the planet would be destroyed and then the rest of the universe would be wiped out. And look what his decision to not beat Fat Buu created, it created the fusion idea which created Gotenks, Gogeta and Vegito, ultimate Gohan and the restored faith in the spirit bomb. Plus it created Uub and then Majuub who helped save everyone's bacon against baby, so that one decision to not kill Fat Buu himself had quite the domino affect for saving them in the future, it also gave reason for Goku to come back to life in the first place to save them from Buu, Hirudagarn and then the new Bills god of destruction, and then to become super saiyan 4 and beat baby, super 17 and the shadow dragons. So imagine what would have happened if Goku hadn't made that decision, the next villain would have won and would continue to destroy the universe. Any way does anyone else feel we've strayed off the point of this thread to argue about Goku AGAIN?
Were the after-effects of what Goku did great? Yes. Did he know any of that would happen? No.

Having the kids take over is a good idea in theory.. making them take on the strongest foes he's seen when the fate of the human race, planet/galaxy/etc all hang in the balance, and all because of them /maybe/ being able to defeat them. There were other methods.

And it didn't even work.
His plan with Gohan worked for that moment. 7 years later Gohan barely trains, focuses on his studies and by the time of the Buu sagas start he's gotten slightly weaker than he was against Cell.
His plan with Gotenks worked for that moment too. Neither Goten nor Trunks were bothered to train much, as seen in the end of the manga where Vegeta and Goku comment at how lazy they are, they're both not bothered about training. To the point where they have to make the kids participate in the tournament. And at this point Gohan doesn't train being a scholar and all, so the three people he risked all that for gave up on his plan.

Originally posted by BloodRain


No idea if they would succeed in Fusion or how strong they would be. Less as it was only due to the HTime chamber that their SS1 form was as strong as Goku's SS3 form.

Its the same as him having no idea that Gohan would have the trigger to go SS2.

Were the after-effects of what Goku did great? Yes. Did he know any of that would happen? No.

Having the kids take over is a good idea in theory.. making them take on the strongest foes he's seen when the fate of the human race, planet/galaxy/etc all hang in the balance, and all because of them /maybe/ being able to defeat them. There were other methods.

And it didn't even work.
His plan with Gohan worked for that moment. 7 years later Gohan barely trains, focuses on his studies and by the time of the Buu sagas start he's gotten slightly weaker than he was against Cell.
His plan with Gotenks worked for that moment too. Neither Goten nor Trunks were bothered to train much, as seen in the end of the manga where Vegeta and Goku comment at how lazy they are, they're both not bothered about training. To the point where they have to make the kids participate in the tournament. And at this point Gohan doesn't train being a scholar and all, so the three people he risked all that for gave up on his plan. Yes but his enemies keep getting stronger anyway, Goku is trying to make them equipped to handle this themselves. I never said that Goku's search for a successor was going well I just said that he has to keep trying.

And in the process he put his and Vegeta's 11, 8 and 7 year old kids in front of the business end of a shotgun.. twice. Besides the disastrous effects that could/did happen as a direct result of his plan.

Originally posted by BloodRain
And in the process he put his and Vegeta's 11, 8 and 7 year old kids in front of the business end of a shotgun.. twice. Besides the disastrous effects that could/did happen as a direct result of his plan. I think from watching dragon ball, z and gt we've learned not to underestimate the kids, and besides what would you suggest he does?

Compared to overestimating them, which he did both times. No #16 death, no SS2. Dance not pulled off and no time chamber, no Gotenks stronger than Goku. Theres no reason he couldn't have took care of the treats while continuing to training the kids.


And at the end of the manga, with the 3 kids not bothering to train all there was left was himself, Vegeta and Pan who he says is the most dedicated to training. Yet he doesn't seem to bother with training her like he does his resistant son. And after finding Uub who he believes has the potential to be as strong as Buu, the only reason he leave to train him is to make him that strong just so he can have another fight.

In the new movie that is coming up Goku holds back the momentum of a blast with 2.1 solar masses. That shits all over Superman's strength.

Obviously Goku also has the in combat speed and raw power. In fact he even has the advantage in travel speed because of IT.

2.1 solar masses? You mean those energy spheres Bills made the combined made a building sized sphere?

He doesn't have greater speed in any sense. SS3 Goku is 0.05%c, Superman is far, far into FTL.
IT is a teleport, no speed. Still, its still based off his reactions and most of all its 'charge' time in locating a spot to move to.

If Whiss says it's 2.1 solar masses then it's 2.1 solar masses.

Canon fact >>>>>>> your opinion
____________________________

Superman's travel speed is FTL. But this means jack shit in a fight.

Superman's combat speed (which actually matters) is slower than Roshi's.

Proof

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9166/supermanterriblereactio.jpg
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/9166/supermanterriblereactio.jpg

Kid Goku dodged the laser fired by that Red Ribbon Army droid and he outsped Tien's solar flare (which is stated in the Daizenshu to be a flash of light) i.e. FTL.

And no, teleport has infinite speed by definition. But it's only practical in a travel speed sense.

Building sized, also when did he say this?



Scene needs context. Besides the fact that Superman's dialogue says "Its been said that I'm faster than a speeding bullet, and I am. But sometimes being faster than a speeding bullet is not enough." Supes fighting WW while going at FTL, Infinite mass punch, tagging Flash, other things that nerds will bring to the table. And as you can see Superman is travelling with flight.. which is travel speed, which you know he's fast in..



No, he did not dodge the light. Goku knew the attack was coming and already knew what to do, meaning he was reacting /before/ the attack. If Goku did this before the light reached him, that would mean Roshi would have been blinded too. Unless you can show me both Goku moving after the attack (impossible, no scan exists) and then him moving there and back before the light reaches him (again no scan exists).

If kid Goku was FTL how on earth were the characters a great deal faster than him being hit by this light, up to Cell saga level characters?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Building sized, also when did he say this?



Scene needs context. Besides the fact that Superman's dialogue says "Its been said that I'm faster than a speeding bullet, and I am. But sometimes being faster than a speeding bullet is not enough." Supes fighting WW while going at FTL, Infinite mass punch, tagging Flash, other things that nerds will bring to the table. And as you can see Superman is travelling with flight.. which is travel speed, which you know he's fast in..



No, he did not dodge the light. Goku knew the attack was coming and already knew what to do, meaning he was reacting /before/ the attack. If Goku did this before the light reached him, that would mean Roshi would have been blinded too. Unless you can show me both Goku moving after the attack (impossible, no scan exists) and then him moving there and back before the light reaches him (again no scan exists).

If kid Goku was FTL how on earth were the characters a great deal faster than him being hit by this light, up to Cell saga level characters? Lowballing is a terrible sickness.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Supes fighting WW while going at FTL,
Show me.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Infinite mass punch,
Travel speed.

Originally posted by BloodRain
tagging Flash,
Wonder Woman and Batman have tagged the Flash, it means jack shit.

Originally posted by BloodRain
No, he did not dodge the light. Goku knew the attack was coming and already knew what to do,
Can you prove this?

BloodRain logged out. Cool. I figured he wasn't able to back up his bullshit, but I thought I'd give him a chance.

Anyway, the thread pretty much ended with Superman failing to catch bullets when Roshi did it with ease.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/12/127728/2498699-1984678-superman_facepalm_by_randomredneck1990_d37784g1.jpg

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
If Whiss says it's 2.1 solar masses then it's 2.1 solar masses.

Canon fact >>>>>>> your opinion
____________________________

Superman's travel speed is FTL. But this means jack shit in a fight.

Superman's combat speed (which actually matters) is slower than Roshi's.

Proof

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9166/supermanterriblereactio.jpg
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/9166/supermanterriblereactio.jpg

Kid Goku dodged the laser fired by that Red Ribbon Army droid and he outsped Tien's solar flare (which is stated in the Daizenshu to be a flash of light) i.e. FTL.

And no, teleport has infinite speed by definition. But it's only practical in a travel speed sense.

C2gQo-0VW5c

Superman can stand there and tank a billion of the most powerful blasts SSJ3 Vegetto could throw at him. Why would he need combat speed? To tag Goku? Goku would get tagged after a few weeks without rest.

Originally posted by Dolos
Superman can stand there and tank a billion of the most powerful blasts SSJ3 Vegetto could throw at him. Why would he need combat speed? To tag Goku? Goku would get tagged after a few weeks without rest.
No, flying into a moon knocked out Superman.

A planet buster, or solar buster (both within Goku's range of power) would leave Superman in a coma if not kill him outright.

And that's not counting the galaxy-busting power of SSJG.

Yet Superman has survived without any real damage/losing consciousness being the ham in between a 2 planets sammich.

I like how you simply stick to one feat and call it a day.

Goku would get killed if he flew into a moon at light speed. Just saiyan.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Yet Superman has survived without any real damage/losing consciousness being the ham in between a 2 planets sammich.
So you're not referring to the Infinite Crisis event. Then what are you referring to.

Anyway, I'll let you in on a little secret. There's less energy exerted on Superman's body sandwhiched in between two planets than a point blank planet buster would exert.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
I like how you simply stick to one feat and call it a day.
How many feats do you want? And keep in mind that's I'm being generous.

I could go all into how DC considers Karate Kid's Ki Magic, and how anything magic (even cards) cuts up Superman to.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Goku would get killed if he flew into a moon at light speed. Just saiyan.
Exactly at light speed? That would be infinite energy, so yeah. But it would also kill Superman.

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
No, flying into a moon knocked out Superman.

A planet buster, or solar buster (both within Goku's range of power) would leave Superman in a coma if not kill him outright.

And that's not counting the galaxy-busting power of SSJG.

It was not a moon, it wasn't even a dwarf planet like Pluto, it was a normal planet.

If Goku lets loose a beam shaped ki blast that is powerful enough to destroy a planet, it will kill him according to the laws of physics and the fact that his durability is 1 trillionth of a fraction of 1% of Superman's eyeball.

Unless of course he decides to create an orb shape ki blast that detonates, in which case Superman can back hand it into another star system before it detonates just as easily as he could any other ki-based attack.

Or he could detonate a ki blast prematurely with his heat vision and kill Goku while only being knocked out.

Lowballing what, Zack?

And Veiler, claiming superiority because a person has things to do outside of this site? Poor form.
Originally posted by Effect Veiler
Show me.

Travel speed.

Wonder Woman and Batman have tagged the Flash, it means jack shit.

Can you prove this?

Was on the death battle vid. What does vibrating him body have to do with travel?
And Superman reacting to and tagging FTL speed Flash in a melee range means nothing?


Goku's reactions before Tien used it.

"If kid Goku was FTL how on earth were the characters a great deal faster than him being hit by this light, up to Cell saga level characters?"


When did Whis say that about Bills' attack?

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
So you're not referring to the Infinite Crisis event. Then what are you referring to.

Anyway, I'll let you in on a little secret. There's less energy exerted on Superman's body sandwhiched in between two planets than a point blank planet buster would exert.


How many feats do you want? And keep in mind that's I'm being generous.

I could go all into how DC considers Karate Kid's Ki Magic, and how anything magic (even cards) cuts up Superman to.


Exactly at light speed? That would be infinite energy, so yeah. But it would also kill Superman. I don't remember the exact details. But I remember Superman tanking 2 planets being fused together. Among many other ridiculous feats like tanking the force equivalent to 50 supernovas(maybe more) after being exposed to red sun radiation.

I'm just saying it is not nice to select one feat and parade it around claiming that is Superman's top speed when he has other instances of being faster than bullets/much much faster than bullets. To try and claim Superman is not faster than bullets is just stupid. People will stop taking you seriously, if they ever did.

Yes Superman has no special protection against magic. Irrelevant since Dragonball's Ki is not magic. And Superman has his fair share of ridiculous showings against magical attacks.

Lets try and balance things.

Yes light speed and it was no ordinary moon. Yet Superman survived the entire ordeal. The moon got pulverized in the process.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Lowballing what, Zack?

Wasn't talking about you. Was mainly agreeing on your reply to his 'Superman slower than bullets' scan.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/deathofthenewgods080260co1.jpg

People still believe that Goku would is able to defeat Superman? What about the Death Battle?

I think every non-fanboy thought it would end too, for a short moment.
Originally posted by Zack Fair

For accusing you of accusing me, I offer up a picture kind sir hat

Superman>Goku


and guys i just went to look at the louge forum...and the wankage they have for DBZ....my heart was close to stopping

the what forum?

Louge forum.

I'm sorry but the coincidence with what he said is too much not to post :T

Figures only a Cena fan would be so perverted 131

Originally posted by TheHulk
Superman>Goku


and guys i just went to look at the louge forum...and the wankage they have for DBZ....my heart was close to stopping This coming from a guy with Goku as his avatar, and oddly enough calls himself the hulk. And I'm sure a lot of superman fanboys are the same.

Some DB fanboys still claim FTL+ and destruction well past Star System level.

I can't remember the last time I saw a Superman fanboy claim things that far from the truth.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Some DB fanboys still claim FTL+ and destruction well past Star System level.

I can't remember the last time I saw a Superman fanboy claim things that far from the truth. Come on it was said that Frieza could casually destroy the planet Namek during the fight between himself and Goku, so is it really hard to believe that with all the ascending and training since then that they can't do more than what they show, even by the time they reach super saiyan 4 level.

Thats the thing. Without going by what we see all thats left is guessing what they can do without anything to back it up besides this guys stronger than that guy.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Thats the thing. Without going by what we see all thats left is guessing what they can do without anything to back it up besides this guys stronger than that guy. It's called an educated guess, in fact it's such an educated guess to the point where it is as good as a fact. You call yourself a DB fan but your not supportive of it at all.

Being a fan doesn't mean I can go assuming without facts.

A Star buster requires 3,000,000,000 times the energy of an Earth buster, 400,000,000,000,000 times Earth busting to wipe out a Star System. Can you say that any Z characters attacks are that much more powerful than Freeza's planet busting attacks, by guessing alone?


The best DB feat, from Buu, with assumptions is said to be up tp 446,000 times Earth busting.

Originally posted by Dolos
Striking Power:

Shattering Space and Time -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/94/61240856.png

He can destroy a planet if he keeps at it -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/823/69009027.jpg

Sure enough -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/543/30163476.png

"As our skin splits, so does the earth."

Plows through Emperor Joker, a reality warper -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/23/45496709.jpg

Originally posted by Dolos
Durability:

Holds a miniature black hole in his hand -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/560/77862610.jpg

Is the cushion for planets (So he can tank Kid Buu's casual blast, if anything could actually connect with that kind of power, it took Vegeta forever to get one beam like that and he MISSED)-

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/201/54900174.jpg

Superman cuts a moon in half and is FINE (King Kai's planet isn't even moon sized, if the moon were compressed into the volume of King Kai's world (a few hundred meters), it would be hundreds and hundreds of Gs, that's how much larger the earth and the moon are than King Kai's world) -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/208/51325800.jpg

Btw he reached the moon at 2.5 times the speed of light.

Bizarro punches him through the entire earth, and he's smiling about it -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/545/28281565.png

Survives the full brunt of a supernova explosion (Super Perfect Cell's full power) -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/39/39982934.jpg

Originally posted by Dolos
Strength:

Bench presses the equivalent weight of the earth for six days -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/690/su8u.jpg

Krypton's gravity is thousands of times greater than any other planet in fiction, check it:

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/811/26978381.jpg

He can even crack Amazonian Weaponry by flinging his blood at it -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/84/spww21eo.jpg

Originally posted by Dolos
Combat speed:

Changes clothes in a moment -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/713/57969936.jpg

Rebuilds a Skyscraper in Three Words -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/12/20898618.jpg

Rebuilds Bizaro City in a moment -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/18/25949938.jpg

Runs, gets some inc, and draws a bat symbol on this kid's shirt without anyone seeing him move (microseconds) -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/841/63782925.jpg

Flies to Paris, goes into a shop, grabs a bottle of Champagn, and goes back to America in between two words mid sentence -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/191/52766431.jpg

Here he tags the Flash, who casually fights at the Speed of Light -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/822/59642390.jpg

Intangibility -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/22/57412301.jpg

He outruns a terranova in 2 seconds, good luck tagging him with a ki blast -

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/2203/36074896.jpg

Originally posted by Dolos
Skill:

Nerve strike through Batman's armor -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/24/65004346.jpg

Nerve strike on an indestructible Metahuman on par with Superman -

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/442/90447467.jpg

Originally posted by Dolos
Their Ki blasts are a non-factor because he can escape any planet busting blast either by outrunning it or by going intangible. Even when fully amped by Ki Technique their striking power, durability, and combat speed are and would always be only a mere fraction of Post-crisis Superman. Not that they can hit intangible opponents. Unless any of them ever display feats on par with these. My summary of how this would go down? Superman methodically pressure points them one by one, paralyzing all of them before they can react. They aren't nearly as durable, strong or as fast, no matter how much ki technique they use, before their neurons can even reach their muscles they're dead.

If all else fails, he can just fry their brains with x ray microheat vision:

hfIuqKddzZU

I mean, it's not like their brains or inner organs can withstand this kind of heat:

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/811/90337382.jpg

Or this:

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/822/10846047.jpg

Science can't even measure how hot his heat vision is:

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/407/83979662.jpg

No Z Fighter, with all their Ki energy, is capable of achieving his speeds even in the Movie:

CCsHTNP2MaU

Superman is this untouchable God, Z verse isn't alone here, no other mainstream Super Hero in Marvel or DC can match him in feats. He's a ***** to keep up with in feats. He's the first, and forever the Supreme Super Hero. He was written by two Jews who grew up in the slums, not some priviledged Japanese artist.

He's been stated again and again and again as the strongest super hero on earth, it runs in his genes:

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/560/61351873.jpg

On top of that, he's the epitome of Kryptonian Evolution; The Last Son of Krypton:

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/841/98136430.jpg

Man, you guys are trippin'. Fat Janemba was stated to be a universe buster, and SSJ3 Goku raped him. Goku would poop on any Superman. Even Raditz was faster than light. Also, Dolos, Dragon ball was made by a poor raddish farmer.

Some of Dolos fts have plot. Like warming the Earth..Superman was amped when he did that.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Man, you guys are trippin'. Fat Janemba was stated to be a universe buster, and SSJ3 Goku raped him. Goku would poop on any Superman. Even Raditz was faster than light. Also, Dolos, Dragon ball was made by a poor raddish farmer.

Frieza was stated as being a Universal threat. Janemba is non-canon.

No, Goku would fry him.

Originally posted by Dolos


Omg, "shattering space and time," something that Super Buu was doing by just breathing.
Omg, he did something that Frieza did under 1 percent of his power.
Post the next scan with Emperor Joker that relates to him and Superman.
Omg he held a black hole that will help him do nothing in a fight.
Omg, he tanked the cushion of two planets, that's so impressive when fully drained and cut in half Frieza was able to tank the explosion of a planet point blank!
Omg, he cut the moon in half, even though Roshi and before Z Piccolo could DESTROY it from DISTANCE.
Omg, supernova when he's powered by solar energy and was still knocked out.
Omg lifting strength that would do nothing for him in a fight.
Where does it say krypton's gravity was thousands of times greater than any other planet in fiction?
Omg, he cracked Wonder Woman's sword, completely unquantifiable feat and completely useless too.
Omg, he can move really fast to build stuff, which isn't combat speed at all.
Here's real combat speed, a fight in 0.2 seconds between Krillin and Roshi in 21st Budokai.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/53235/1012405-040605.gif
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/53235/1012406-040606.gif
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/53235/1012407-040607.gif
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/53235/1012409-040609.gif
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/53235/1012410-040610.gif
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/53235/1012403-040611.gif
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/53235/1012403-040611.gif
Omg, he tagged the Flash who isn't always FTL since regular humans tag him all the time.
Omg, he made himself intangible against Doomsday! We all know how fast that monster is!
Omg, a nerve strike!
Omg, a cartoon!
Omg, unquantifiable heat that is pretty shit by Saiyan Saga standards when Vegeta could casually destroy planets.
Omg, science can't measure how hot his heat vision is. That's os impressive, not like Nappa was toying with the world's military or anything.
Omg, a movie scene with travel speed!
Omg, the strongest hero on DC earth, that's so relatable to DBZ.

Have you even read Dragon Ball to be talking like that, as if any of those are impressive by DBZ standards? Fun fact, Saiyan Saga Vegeta was shaking the planet by just powering up. That alone is enough to make that Vegeta a high end threat to the JLA.

The black hole was contained.

Originally posted by carver9
The black hole was contained.

And how does that help him against DBZ characters in the slightest?

It doesn't.