Maul Brothers vs. Bane

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jmoul
Got this idea from my Maul vs. Bane thread. Savage and Maul face off with Bane in the Geonossian arena. Maul is TCW version. Three all-out rounds:

1. PoD Bane
2. RoT Bane
3. DoE Bane

DARTH POWER
Unless Bane is in Orbalisk Brothers should take it.

I think Current Maul even on his own can put up a decent fight against Bane.

He's quite powerful in the Force now able to Force choke the wind out of Kenobi (Sith Hunters) and toss a Jedi Craft pretty fast. And even though he's below Kenobi in Sabers, it's clearly not a huge gap when you look at their one on one's.

Then there's Opress who though untrained clearly knows how to wield a Lightsaber and has Monstrous strength and a mean Force Wave which has floored both Kenobi and Skywalker on more than 1 occasion.

Lastly even Sidious feels the need to use Jar Kai when fighting both brothers so unless Bane's Jar Kai skills are up to scratch and he has a spare Saber, he'll likely lose against both Brothers.

jmoul
RoT Bane implies orbalisks, so for one round, yes, he is in Orbalisk armor

Ascendancy
In orbs he takes them. Near invulnerability & stamina enhancement that allow him to focus entirely on offense leaves the brothers dead.

His speed by DoE is such that he is certainly capable of standing toe-to-toe with a pair of foes at once. That and his Force abilities should help him take the day, but it would honestly be a near thing. It's not like even Sidious stomped the pair and he knew Maul inside and out.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Unless Bane is in Orbalisk Brothers should take it.

I think Current Maul even on his own can put up a decent fight against Bane.

He's quite powerful in the Force now able to Force choke the wind out of Kenobi (Sith Hunters) and toss a Jedi Craft pretty fast. And even though he's below Kenobi in Sabers, it's clearly not a huge gap when you look at their one on one's.

Then there's Opress who though untrained clearly knows how to wield a Lightsaber and has Monstrous strength and a mean Force Wave which has floored both Kenobi and Skywalker on more than 1 occasion.

Lastly even Sidious feels the need to use Jar Kai when fighting both brothers so unless Bane's Jar Kai skills are up to scratch and he has a spare Saber, he'll likely lose against both Brothers.

Did you just imply Sidious needed Jarkai to deal with the Maul brothers? sick

Nephthys
Bane beats these posers as easily as Sidious did. Easier with Orbalisks.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Did you just imply Sidious needed Jarkai to deal with the Maul brothers? sick

I implied that he clearly felt Jar Kai would be needed hence why he brought 2 Sabers to the fight.

Anyway if Sidious could beat them both with a single Saber then he should have done so to prove it.

But as far as the evidence goes, all we know is that he can beat them wielding dual swords. And as Obi-Wan's fight with the brothers proved, that second Saber clearly helps when dealing with both of them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane beats these posers as easily as Sidious did. Easier with Orbalisks.

You think Bane is a match for Sidious?

Even if he is, is he as skilled in wielding Jar Kai? Because last I heard Kas'im was beating him in Sabers when he switched to Jar Kai.


Nah brothers should win this one except when Bane has Orbalisk.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You think Bane is a match for Sidious?

Even if he is, is he as skilled in wielding Jar Kai? Because last I heard Kas'im was beating him in Sabers when he switched to Jar Kai.


Nah brothers should win this one except when Bane has Orbalisk.

Yes.

No, I don't think he is. I do however think that your implication that he needs it is quite ludicrous. Bane is fast and skilled enough to fight more than one opponent at once with a single lightsaber. And Jar'Kai is not a requirement of doing so in the first place.

What if Bane incinerates Savage at the start of the fight? Dude can't block Force Lightning for shit so he's out of the game in that case.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes.

No, I don't think he is. I do however think that your implication that he needs it is quite ludicrous. Bane is fast and skilled enough to fight more than one opponent at once with a single lightsaber. And Jar'Kai is not a requirement of doing so in the first place.

What if Bane incinerates Savage at the start of the fight? Dude can't block Force Lightning for shit so he's out of the game in that case.

Dooku for all his great force powers and saber prowess was just about getting the edge over Opress and Ventress with a single Saber.

If you think Bane's is going to do just as well against Maul and Opress then you must think he's considerably above Count Dooku.

And Opress isn't just going to get incinerated with 1 blast of Force Lightning. He took many many blasts from Count Dooku and wasn't even KO'd.

Nephthys
And yes, Bane is superior to Dooku. His Force Powers are more lethal (you'll never seen Dooku kill someone with a burst of lightning or a single Force Push like you will Bane) and Bane has greater speed feats than him, is stronger and arguably has a similar degree of lightsaber skill. Bane is just an all-around superior combatant.

However, you can't just base things off of ABC logic. Dooku clearly couldn't engage Savage whereas Bane can, being bigger and stronger. So Dooku's big thing, lightsaber combat, was stunted in its effectiveness. Bane also has more devestating Force powers.

Dooku's lightning is.... mediocre. He certainly has never turned a being to ash in the way Bane has. The fact that Savage doesn't seem to know how to block Force Lightning renders him utterly exposed to Bane's lightning. Why wouldn't it incinerate him? Savage has no innate Force-resistance, without the ability to block Bane with the Force, he will be incinerated. And then it's just Maul.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku clearly couldn't engage Savage whereas Bane can, being bigger and stronger. So Dooku's big thing, lightsaber combat, was stunted in its effectiveness. Bane also has more devestating Force powers.

Nah it was just difficult for him to deal with while fighting off a second opponent. Maul easily deflected Opress's blows with what seemed like some elegant Makashi. As Dooku did himself to Opress in their sparring session.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why wouldn't it incinerate him?

Because he's a physical beast with body armor and with clearly a lot of raw power in the Force on top.

Just in terms of his physical abilities he's taken blaster shots head on.

And then there's the fact that he's taken not just one shot of FL from Count Dooku. But several without even being KO'd.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Savage has no innate Force-resistance,

Where are you getting this from?

Nephthys
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah it was just difficult for him to deal with while fighting off a second opponent. Maul easily deflected Opress's blows with what seemed like some elegant Makashi. As Dooku did himself to Opress in their sparring session.

Didn't seem to bother him. He was cool with simply dodging around Savage. It was only after he tried to actually block one of his blows that he got thrown across the room.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because he's a physical beast with body armor and with clearly a lot of raw power in the Force on top.

Just in terms of his physical abilities he's taken blaster shots head on.

And then there's the fact that he's taken not just one shot of FL from Count Dooku. But several without even being KO'd.

Because big and strong doesn't mean you can resist millions of volts of Force lightning. no expression

Ok, then his armored body might be relatively intact. His head will still be dust on the wind though.

Yeah because Dooku's lightning is hella weak.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where are you getting this from?

Zabraks aren't Force-resistant. wink

And unless theres some evidence that Opress is a special case or that he is, why should be believe he is without any evidence?

Arhael
Or Maul Force chokes him or either brother knocked him down with a Force blast. wink


Dooku's feats come from film and CW, where you will never see Sidious do that either.


No, he doesn't.


Neither did Palpatine, so what? In Drew's books 6 year old child can vaporize with TK. Dooku never did that either, so he is below untrained child?

Ascendancy
Originally posted by Arhael
Or Maul Force chokes him or either brother knocked him down with a Force blast. wink



WTF? You seriously think Maul has enough Force prowess to choke Bane? What a joke. Bane can ragdoll both brothers when it comes to TK, lightning, and techniques they've never even seen.

The only reason they have a chance is that for a time it may be close saber combat only, and even then Bane wins the day, especially with Orbs.

SebastianisI
I think Bane takes it in sabers in RoT and DoE, and in force and all out in all 3.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah it was just difficult for him to deal with while fighting off a second opponent. Maul easily deflected Opress's blows with what seemed like some elegant Makashi. As Dooku did himself to Opress in their sparring session.



Because he's a physical beast with body armor and with clearly a lot of raw power in the Force on top.

Just in terms of his physical abilities he's taken blaster shots head on.

And then there's the fact that he's taken not just one shot of FL from Count Dooku. But several without even being KO'd.



Where are you getting this from?

lol...

How have you not played Kotor already you noob!

Arhael
I was just mocking at how Nephtys makes absolute statements despite the fact that these characters are from completely different era with completely different Force portrayal making it impossible to make even relative comparison.

Anyway, what a joke is your statement. I have a revelation for you. Having "enough Force prowess" has nothing to do with ability to Force handle others.

Ventress Force choked Kenobi and Anakin. Was she more powerful than both of them combined? Definately not.

Opress choked Dooku and Ventress. Was he more powerful than both of them combined? Definately not.

Ashoka Force pushed Ventress across entire room into a pipe. Was she at least remotely as powerful as Ventress? Definately not.

Finally, Luke tanked all Abeloth's Force attacks as well as outwrestled her. Had he more prowess than her? Definately not.

I hope you get the point. Skill has much more relevance than prowess.

Kenobi demonstrated that he can't simply be overpowered. When Dooku tried to electrocute him, he casually blocked it with lightsaber in one hand. When Opress gave his rage boosted wave that destroyed all the droids aroind, Kenobi tanked it. When Anakin tried to overpower him, Kenobi stalemated him. Maul's Force attacks were instant enough to leave Kenobi no chance to anticipate it and put up adequate Force defence.

Whatever power Bane possess, it will be of no use, if he fails to anticipate opponent's Force attack.


This claim is especially funny considering that even Sidious did not ragdoll them.


The gamer has spoken. pray

The_Tempest
When Opress unleashed his Force wave in "Witches of the Mist," Obi-Wan was put on his ass.



Have you not seen the fight? Sidious ragdolls them multiple times with the Force.

Arhael
Have you not seen the fight? Sidious ragdolls them multiple times with the Force.
Can't wait to see.

DARTH POWER
Yeah watch the fight. Then tell me with a straight face that Bane would beat both brothers together.

Heck he'd have enough trouble against Maul alone.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane beats these posers as easily as Sidious did. Easier with Orbalisks. This. Sids kicked their asses with casual ease. Bane would too.

NTJack0
Bane will make Maul cry again.

DARTH POWER
I doubt Bane's TK is on Sidious's level to just toss the brothers around together. He probably can one on one though.

But without his superior force powers Sidious likely would have been overpowered by the combined might of both brothers in the Saber combat. As would Bane.

Oh and if Maul goes Jar Kai on Bane the way he did against Sidious in the final fight, then I see a repeat of the Bane vs Kas'im Saber duel. Without Orbalisk of course.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Arhael
Or Maul Force chokes him or either brother knocked him down with a Force blast. wink


Dooku's feats come from film and CW, where you will never see Sidious do that either.


No, he doesn't.


Neither did Palpatine, so what? In Drew's books 6 year old child can vaporize with TK. Dooku never did that either, so he is below untrained child?

I know you're 'mocking me', but perhaps the responses from others will have shown you how positively adorable that suggestion is.

Dooku has appeared in novels and comics outside of the and he has never demonstrated offensive Force powers of that lethality.

Oh yeah, remember when Maul moved fast enough to appear to wield 12 lightsabers at once! Oh wait. No, no that didn't happen. erm

Palpatine has actually. In terms of raw power, sure.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I doubt Bane's TK is on Sidious's level to just toss the brothers around together. He probably can one on one though.

But without his superior force powers Sidious likely would have been overpowered by the combined might of both brothers in the Saber combat. As would Bane.

Oh and if Maul goes Jar Kai on Bane the way he did against Sidious in the final fight, then I see a repeat of the Bane vs Kas'im Saber duel. Without Orbalisk of course.

Bane has casually torn through the defenses of Sith Lords and disintegrated metal with a wave of his hand. I would say that his TK is at least on Sidious' level.

I doubt it.

You mean, the duel Bane won? wink

SebastianisI
I used to think Pwoer was one of us. One of teh guys. A friend. or Even something more maybe. But since finding out that he doesnt play KOTOR I have started to see him for who he really is: a noob and a CWC fanboy that should be shunned. SHUNNED!

Arhael
Dooku has appeared in novels and comics outside of the and he has never demonstrated offensive Force powers of that lethality.

So did Sidious. And the only one, where his Force disintegrates anything is DE, which you are eager to bring up in defense of your point. In film though Sidious' lightning didn't even leave any burns on Windu. Force is portrayed differently throughout c-canon, you can deny it as much as you want, it still remains so.


I don't remember Yoda moving "fast enough to appear to wield 12 lightsabers at once" either. So what? It means he is slower? Pointless argument really.

I, also, remember Mandalor being challenging for Maul and even landing some hits past his defenses. So slow for a Force sensitive. Oh wait, Maul fought at equal speed with Palpatine.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Arhael
So did Sidious. And the only one, where his Force disintegrates anything is DE, which you are eager to bring up in defense of your point. In film though Sidious' lightning didn't even leave any burns on Windu. Force is portrayed differently throughout c-canon, you can deny it as much as you want, it still remains so.

Wrong, Sithisis. He also turned the acolytes who resurrected Darth Maul into charred skeletons (yes, Maul has never stayed dead).

Originally posted by Arhael
I don't remember Yoda moving "fast enough to appear to wield 12 lightsabers at once" either. So what? It means he is slower? Pointless argument really.

I, also, remember Mandalor being challenging for Maul and even landing some hits past his defenses. So slow for a Force sensitive. Oh wait, Maul fought at equal speed with Palpatine.

Yoda has sufficient speed feats to counteract Bane's though. Thats the difference from Maul.

Palpatine was going easy on him. He outright says he doesn't plan on killing him. Maul has not demonstrated speed equal to Sidious' elsewhere in the mythos.

Besides which, the CWC doesn't use Force speed at all, so whatever.

Q99
Originally posted by Nephthys


Palpatine was going easy on him. He outright says he doesn't plan on killing him. Maul has not demonstrated speed equal to Sidious' elsewhere in the mythos.

Mind, considering he's Sith, it's very likely he wasn't holding back save for the final blows, on the basis that if Maul didn't survive he wasn't worth using anyway.

Arhael
You did your home work. Well done!
Doesn't deny the fact that in main canon TK doesn't disintegrate and lightning doesn't even leave any burns, though.


Yoda has sufficient speed feats to counteract Bane's though. Thats the difference from Maul.
And Maul has sufficient speed to counteract Sidious. No difference.
Funny how you claim that Yoda is fast enough for Bane, when in fact he's got no speed feats apart from actual fights with Dooku and Sidious, where he had no speed advantage.


Not sure if serious or just mocking.
In any case Yoda had not demonstrated speed equal to Sidious elsewhere in the mythos as well. Either you apply your speed theory to every character or just cut this shit.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
I doubt it.


Yeah, especially because nothing suggests that considering Sidious was the one leaping around flooring them with kicks.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Q99
Mind, considering he's Sith, it's very likely he wasn't holding back save for the final blows, on the basis that if Maul didn't survive he wasn't worth using anyway.

Perhaps. But given that the fight starts with Sidious overpowering them and them seemingly unable to do anything about it until he lets them go, I don't think so.

Originally posted by Arhael
You did your home work. Well done!
Doesn't deny the fact that in main canon TK doesn't disintegrate and lightning doesn't even leave any burns, though.


And Maul has sufficient speed to counteract Sidious. No difference.
Funny how you claim that Yoda is fast enough for Bane, when in fact he's got no speed feats apart from actual fights with Dooku and Sidious, where he had no speed advantage.


Not sure if serious or just mocking.
In any case Yoda had not demonstrated speed equal to Sidious elsewhere in the mythos as well. Either you apply your speed theory to every character or just cut this shit.

Other than Sidious in DE. Or Plagueis in his book. Force Destruction is a dark side power that is described as TK powerful enough to vaporise opponents (Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II manual).

Does he though? As I've said, Sidious was clearly going easy on him.
Yoda was able to defeat Dooku even though he had a speed boost on Vjun, and in a training session was able to dodge the attacks of multiple Jedi Masters without a lightsaber. Finally as you said, he was able to keep up with a Sidious who blitzed 3 of the Jedi's top bladesbeasts.

The_Tempest
Arhael makes a convincing point: Though I'm not sure how one would navigate discrepancies between various mediums, they do exist and (contrary to what Nebarissome would have you believe) do not owe to the idea that the Force users of the prequel and original trilogies are somehow collectively weaker in the Force to such an extensive degree.

The Force Unleashed was constructed from the beginning around the premise of "kicking ass with the Force" (Blackman's words, not mine) and using the Force in ways never before seen. Yet Starkiller, for all his power, still struggled with Vader and was no match for Palpatine, despite displaying powers in excess of theirs.

The fact that every Tom, Sith, and Harry in Karpyshyn's books can sneeze and make ships 'splode doesn't necessarily confer superiority. TCW is itself an exercise in that.

Nephthys
If we think like that then this forum cannot function. Legitimate feats would get thrown out based off of what media they appeared in. How are we to function if we cannot compare characters across media forms? Should we only create threads of characters who appear in the same format? Or should our debates now include arguments such as 'Well Bane's feats come from a Karpyshan novel, which is notoriously high-end Force wise. Maul might not have shown powers equal to him, but because of he's in a weaker series, I'd say he'd be about equal to Bane in a Karpyshan novel.' That's ridiculous and would lead to wildly speculative arguments that have no possibility of an actual verifiable evidence.

The Force Unleashed was conceived as kicking ass with the Force, but to do that they simply created a character who kicks a lot of ****ing ass with the Force. Karpyshans characters are supposed to be incredibly powerful. All of this is consistent with canon if we just accept that the characters..... really are just that powerful. Theres no actual discrepancy there until we think there should be one.

The_Tempest
I already acknowledged the extraordinary difficulty in trying to navigate that, but let's be honest: it's not like that sort of thing hasn't been going on for ages now.

Starkiller and The Force Unleashed is a prime example of that. We see Vader labor around like a geriatric against geriatrics in the original trilogy, but here he's collapsing buildings, throwing big ass platforms like frisbees, and generally being a badass to an exponentially greater degree. Starkiller drags capital ships out of orbit, flexes his arms and disintegrates them entirely, and so on.

Feat-to-feat, he'd waste Bane... but no one likes to say that.

Star Wars: The Clone Wars mortally injured the notion that "lol Obi-Wan is teh 4th best Jedi in the PT!" by seeding the series with rivals who, despite their paltry exposure, compete with him on some level.

The_Tempest
Didn't see your edit.



...And the movie!era characters aren't supposed to be "incredibly powerful"? Look, there's no two ways about it: Lucas conceived the Rule of Two as a means of strengthening the Sith. Each successor is greater than his or her predecessor, Bane himself articulates that. Per Lucas, this is what Emperor "I wanna fvcking live forever" Palpatine himself was even trying to do: find someone more powerful than he was. Per the Rule of Two, Bane is supposed to be the weakest of his order. Lucas describes the prequel era as "the golden age" of the Jedi with respect to combat and yet you might not guess it from their performance in AOTC compared to other eras.

Zamp has long exhorted that authorial intent be considered. The danger, of course, is that he and others want to apply that only selectively. If we applied that across the board, the characters he (and you) support would be knocked down a few pegs.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SebastianisI
I used to think Pwoer was one of us. One of teh guys. A friend. or Even something more maybe. But since finding out that he doesnt play KOTOR I have started to see him for who he really is: a noob and a CWC fanboy that should be shunned. SHUNNED!

LOL who the heck are you? I'm not into gaming. And I do have plenty of PT and OT era EU novels, comics and other canon sources.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Palpatine was going easy on him. He outright says he doesn't plan on killing him.

Oh come on. That was right at the end when he's won that he says that. Don't make excuses for Maul's great performance.

I could argue Maul wasn't fighting at his best until Opress died. Because he outright said he wanted to serve Palpatine at the beginning of the fight.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Q99
Mind, considering he's Sith, it's very likely he wasn't holding back save for the final blows, on the basis that if Maul didn't survive he wasn't worth using anyway.

thumb up

You understand the Sith well.

The_Tempest

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, especially because nothing suggests that considering Sidious was the one leaping around flooring them with kicks.

Nice try. He never once floors Maul with a kick.

He does floor Opress with a kick once. But let's not forget Opress knocks him off the balcony first.

Like it or not Maul proved he alone has the ability to hang with Sidious in Sabers.

Having said that I was seriously impressed with Sidious's TK. To continually ragdoll both brothers together like that... Well let's just say he's more powerful than I ever knew!

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I already acknowledged the extraordinary difficulty in trying to navigate that, but let's be honest: it's not like that sort of thing hasn't been going on for ages now.

Starkiller and The Force Unleashed is a prime example of that. We see Vader labor around like a geriatric against geriatrics in the original trilogy, but here he's collapsing buildings, throwing big ass platforms like frisbees, and generally being a badass to an exponentially greater degree. Starkiller drags capital ships out of orbit, flexes his arms and disintegrates them entirely, and so on.

Feat-to-feat, he'd waste Bane... but no one likes to say that.

Star Wars: The Clone Wars mortally injured the notion that "lol Obi-Wan is teh 4th best Jedi in the PT!" by seeding the series with rivals who, despite their paltry exposure, compete with him on some level.

Only by neanderthals like Arhael who can be safely ignored. I've already had this argument with him, and sadly you are no more convincing than he is.

Which is why we don't argue based off of choreography which has obvious limitations to it. Vader has a wide range of feats from novels and comics supporting his power as being closer to his Force Unleashed version than his lame movie version, most of which came out before TFU. It isn't as if TFU is some insane aberration warping Vader's power-level or anything.

In telekinesis perhaps he has an edge, but to say he would waste him is overstating it.

Good for them?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Didn't see your edit.



...And the movie!era characters aren't supposed to be "incredibly powerful"? Look, there's no two ways about it: Lucas conceived the Rule of Two as a means of strengthening the Sith. Each successor is greater than his or her predecessor, Bane himself articulates that. Per Lucas, this is what Emperor "I wanna fvcking live forever" Palpatine himself was even trying to do: find someone more powerful than he was. Per the Rule of Two, Bane is supposed to be the weakest of his order. Lucas describes the prequel era as "the golden age" of the Jedi with respect to combat and yet you might not guess it from their performance in AOTC compared to other eras.

Zamp has long exhorted that authorial intent be considered. The danger, of course, is that he and others want to apply that only selectively. If we applied that across the board, the characters he (and you) support would be knocked down a few pegs.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Nice going turning the discussion into a ****ing OT>All argument. Yeah, that's never getting old. I'm not even going to bother dignifying this. Suffice to say that in the movie!era, the majority of these omfgubar! characters are Jedi who don't attack with the Force offensively and Sith apprentices, who while powerful, do not measure up to the truly great Sith Lords such as Plagueis, Vitiate, Bane and Sidious, and the latter himself. Besides which, the CW characters get plenty of powerful feats, just not as good as the very cream of SW. No matter how much you ***** and moan, simply being alive in that era does not entitle them to be among the top tier of the mythos.

The_Tempest
You did "dignify" it with the subsequent paragraph. erm

Conquer your butthurt, bro.

Nephthys
I meant about the stupid 'Banes sucks lol' stuff. I'm not getting into that RoT argument again.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
I meant about the stupid 'Banes sucks lol' stuff. I'm not getting into that RoT argument again.

I understand. In addition to being an extremely emotional subject for you, it's an argument you inexorably lose. It's unfortunate that the overarching design favors the true Lord of the Sith and not his flaccid predecessor. excellent

Nephthys
Oh look here comes the bam subject changed!

I've still to here how we could actually compare characters if we dismiss their showings based off of medium.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh look here comes the bam subject changed!

I've still to here how we could actually compare characters if we dismiss their showings based off of medium.

I refer you back to TFU. Starkiller's feats are on par with pretty much anyone and Vader, relatively pedestrian in any other incarnation, gives him hell. I maintain that discerning placement is a complex equation that draws from feats, quotes, and creative intent. Marka Ragnos doesn't have the feats to compete with anyone in particular, but we know he'd probably eviscerate most. Vitiate has never displayed any superhuman physicality, but the idea that he moves lethargically is silly. Dooku hasn't incinerated people with lightning, but the idea that his lightning is "weak" or that he's somehow inferior to an untrained child is ridiculous.

So, ultimately, I support much of Arhael's overall philosophy.

Ascendancy
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I refer you back to TFU. Starkiller's feats are on par with pretty much anyone and Vader, relatively pedestrian in any other incarnation, gives him hell. I maintain that discerning placement is a complex equation that draws from feats, quotes, and creative intent. Marka Ragnos doesn't have the feats to compete with anyone in particular, but we know he'd probably eviscerate most. Vitiate has never displayed any superhuman physicality, but the idea that he moves lethargically is silly. Dooku hasn't incinerated people with lightning, but the idea that his lightning is "weak" or that he's somehow inferior to an untrained child is ridiculous.

So, ultimately, I support much of Arhael's overall philosophy.

How could Ragnos eviscerate any of the Sidious-era Force users? You said we must take literally the statement that they are the cream of the crop, and that any who came before are lacking. If Bane is not anywhere near Sidious despite descriptions to the contrary, then Ragnos is most certainly incapable of a decisive victory against Yoda, Dooku, and company.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Ascendancy
How could Ragnos eviscerate any of the Sidious-era Force users? You said we must take literally the statement that they are the cream of the crop, and that any who came before are lacking. If Bane is not anywhere near Sidious despite descriptions to the contrary, then Ragnos is most certainly incapable of a decisive victory against Yoda, Dooku, and company.

Ragnos predates the Rule of Two, unlike Bane.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I refer you back to TFU. Starkiller's feats are on par with pretty much anyone and Vader, relatively pedestrian in any other incarnation, gives him hell. I maintain that discerning placement is a complex equation that draws from feats, quotes, and creative intent. Marka Ragnos doesn't have the feats to compete with anyone in particular, but we know he'd probably eviscerate most. Vitiate has never displayed any superhuman physicality, but the idea that he moves lethargically is silly. Dooku hasn't incinerated people with lightning, but the idea that his lightning is "weak" or that he's somehow inferior to an untrained child is ridiculous.

So, ultimately, I support much of Arhael's overall philosophy.

Yeah, bur Vader isn't relatively pedestrian in any other incarnation, like I said. Also, Marek does kind of kick his ass when it comes to the Force.

That's how we already do things (other than creative intent which is unreliable in a mythos with multiple creators working simultaneously). And I didn't say his lightning was weak, merely mediocre. Which isn't unreasonable given how it compares to other imo. And Zannah is stupidly powerful as a child. It's pretty dumb tbh. I rationalise it like how Harry does a ton of wandless magic before he learns about wizards. Sometimes using your power unconsciously can be more powerful than if you try to control it I guess.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, bur Vader isn't relatively pedestrian in any other incarnation, like I said.

Compared to the stunts he pulls in TFU, yeah he is, bro. Though he almost always outperforms his on-screen self.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, Marek does kind of kick his ass when it comes to the Force.

Not really, no. Especially in the sequel.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's how we already do things (other than creative intent which is unreliable in a mythos with multiple creators working simultaneously).

That's precisely why I do not permit Zamp to rely on it (that's right, he needs my permission) in arguments. Of course, given that one particular creator is supreme....

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I didn't say his lightning was weak, merely mediocre. Which isn't unreasonable given how it compares to other imo.

Except Dooku is one of the most powerful anything that's ever lived. The idea that his lightning is "mediocre" is patently silly and is unreasonable solely by that virtue.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Zannah is stupidly powerful as a child. It's pretty dumb tbh.

Karpyshyn's vast deficits as a novelist are not in doubt. Nevertheless, I personally find that argument silly. Kajin Savaros, who's had zero training, disintegrates an Imperial Inquisitor with a Force push in Patterns of the Force. Does that make him a superior Force user than Bane?

Nephthys
Er, no. Vader has always been portrayed as extremely powerful with the feats to match. Remember that quote saying he makes Kar Vastor look like a limp-wristed dandy? Vader's the shit.

Open to interpretation I suppose. But you won't see Vader ragdolling Marek without a hole in the latters chest. Not like how Marek treated him in that first game.

Which is why raw power isn't everything. Anakin is even more powerful than him and he's pretty meh at using the Force. Dooku either isn't as skilled in the use of lightning as he should be or he just doesn't hate enough. But those are justifications. The fact is, we cannot magically give him more powerful Force Lightning showings than he's actually performed. Just going 'he's really powerful' isn't evidence that he can charr to the bone or even kill with it. You may call it stupid, but it would be even stupider to make up feats for him that he doesn't have.

See my edit. Though the child is obviously immensely powerful.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Er, no. Vader has always been portrayed as extremely powerful with the feats to match. Remember that quote saying he makes Kar Vastor look like a limp-wristed dandy? Vader's the shit.

Are we talking feats or quotes now?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is why raw power isn't everything. Anakin is even more powerful than him and he's pretty meh at using the Force. Dooku either isn't as skilled in the use of lightning as he should be or he just doesn't hate enough. But those are justifications. The fact is, we cannot magically give him more powerful Force Lightning showings than he's actually performed. Just going 'he's really powerful' isn't evidence that he can charr to the bone or even kill with it.

Except... you want to do that with Vitiate and Bane. Bane's feats on a dark side nexus you wanted to include as part of his standard skillset (even though he's never shown that sort of power elsewhere) and you want to ascribe superhuman physicality to Vitiate that's never shown.

Which is why I couched Dooku with those examples.

Originally posted by Nephthys
See my edit. Though the child is obviously immensely powerful.

So that's... a yes? Yes, he is more powerful than Bane?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I refer you back to TFU. Starkiller's feats are on par with pretty much anyone and Vader, relatively pedestrian in any other incarnation, gives him hell. I maintain that discerning placement is a complex equation that draws from feats, quotes, and creative intent. Marka Ragnos doesn't have the feats to compete with anyone in particular, but we know he'd probably eviscerate most. Vitiate has never displayed any superhuman physicality, but the idea that he moves lethargically is silly. Dooku hasn't incinerated people with lightning, but the idea that his lightning is "weak" or that he's somehow inferior to an untrained child is ridiculous.

So, ultimately, I support much of Arhael's overall philosophy.


I agree with most of this. Although I'm hesitant to assume that Vitiate can be considered one of the fastest force users just because he is one of the most powerful. He's not shown to be a combatant who has been trained to focus the force for speed. I agree that he should have superhuman speed and reflexes, but I don't agree that he should be among the fastest.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I agree with most of this. Although I'm hesitant to assume that Vitiate can be considered one of the fastest force users just because he is one of the most powerful. He's not shown to be a combatant who has been trained to focus the force for speed. I agree that he should have superhuman speed and reflexes, but I don't agree that he should be among the fastest.

If such things derive from the Force, then he should.

SIDIOUS 66
When Starkiller fought Shaak Ti, he was more powerful than her, but his speed wasn't beyond hers. She actually had the upperhand in the lightsaber duel.

The_Tempest
Very true, but then that's another of Arhael's points about the inconsistency of that power.

Nephthys
Only with study can you become more proficient at using the Force. If Vitiate is unskilled at using Force Speed, then raw power does not automatically grant him great ability in its use.

And Marek likewise seems much more proficient in destructive Force-use than physically amping himself. Great power does not grant one great ability in all areas of its use. A powerful Jedi Guardian might be less powerful in TK than a less powerful Consular. And a powerful Consular might be less able in lightsaber combat than a less powerful Guardian, to give a basic example.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Are we talking feats or quotes now?



Except... you want to do that with Vitiate and Bane. Bane's feats on a dark side nexus you wanted to include as part of his standard skillset (even though he's never shown that sort of power elsewhere) and you want to ascribe superhuman physicality to Vitiate that's never shown.

Which is why I couched Dooku with those examples.



So that's... a yes? Yes, he is more powerful than Bane?

We were talking both. That's how you said we should do this remember?

Those are different situations. I've always used logic and reasoning to justify those kinds of arguments. Logic beyond 'Bane is powerful.' I have not ascribed abilities to Bane that he has not actually performed and I've acknowledged the possibility that Vitiate (and Nihilus for that matter) may be mediocre in terms of speed.

Also I've told you before how much it genuinely irritates me when you attempt to 'educate' me and throw past arguments in my face. Stop. Doing. It.

Um, no? We'd need much more information than just that to declare him that powerful. Zannah does a lot of crazy powerful stuff. I'm open to the possibility though.

SIDIOUS 66
I understand where Arhael is coming from for the most part. But when it comes to someone like Obi Wan, I don't. I don't agree that Obi Wan should be a match for someone like Sidious in terms of speed just because the portrayal of that power has been inconsistent in the mythos. Sidious has never been inconsistent with that power (assuming he was holding back against the brothers), and Obi Wan has never displayed the speed that Palpatine has. I'm alright with the argument that Obi Wan would last longer against Sidious than the masters did in ROTS, but there is nothing to suggest that he can provide a challenge, especially since Obi Wan isn't much better than Fisto.

Nephthys
I would like to hear what Arhael (and Tempest for that matter) thinks about Sidious blitzing those Jedi tbh. Do they think Maul, Opress and by extension Obi-Wan can do the same?

Also, edited above post. Check it Tempest. You should always check my posts after you've responded to them in case I've edited.

Arhael
Perhaps. But given that the fight starts with Sidious overpowering them and them seemingly unable to do anything about it until he lets them go, I don't think so.
Keeping them pinned untill he gets Force exhausted would not be a wise way to start a fight.


Oh, Plagueis DID NOT vaporize anyone with TK. You tend to misunderstand book text.

"He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians."

All but is the same as anything but. It is a hyperbolical implication that his TK did horrible damage. What exactly it did to them is unknown and is subject to reader's imagination. But what is for sure is that they were not atomized.


Manual is a guide to the game. It's description applies only to game, not entire Universe as it merely describes mechanics of the game. For the universe we have Guide to the Force and encyclopedias in general. Moreover, games tend to have non-canon Force powers that don't exist outside of the game and used solely to enhance gameplay.

And now I accuse you of bullshitting, unless you can provide actual quote from that source. This guide is not available for download anywhere and can be purchased only. I take it you have it on your hands since you know the info, so screenshot, please.

In the mean time the guide text is available online and this is the description of the power:

"Force Destruction - a giant fireball that causes tremendous splash damage.
Sends the enemies flying. More stars causes more damage, and a greater radius
of splash damage."

1. It confirms that this Force power is not TK but a fireball.
2. It confirms that it doesn't vaporize but makes opponents to fly away.
3. Fact: in game noone gets vaporized or torn to pieces.
4. Conclusion: your claim is a blatant lie.


Your opinion doesn't add any weight to the argument. We judge by what we can see and what is actually there.

And we can see that Sidious can't blitz either of the brothers. Even when he engaged Opress alone, he couldn't get past his defence with lightsabers and utilized kicks like Kenobi to concussion him.


Speed boost? Does it say that or you just make it up? He had power boost from nexus. Nexus increases power, not speed. It allowed Dooku to fight longer without getting tired.


Let's do a recap.
You stated that Bane's speed feats are superior completely ignoring the fact that Maul fought at equal speed with Sidious because Maul is never described like wielding 12 lightsabers. Yet, when I pointed out that exactly the same applies to Yoda, you praise him for doing exactly the same thing as Maul - fighting Sidious at the same speed. Seriously, WTF???


Really? You put up rediculous and speculative arguments already. I like how you defend Yoda as being "fast enough" for Bane. Now let me adopt your style and lowball Yoda.

Yoda in AotC struggles a lot to keep a pillar in air. In RotS heavily concentrates on a platform, which is not even heavy because of repulsors. In ESB he struggles to lift a starfighter. In comparison Bane topples entire building with single Force blast and disintegrates metal. Bane's feats surpass Yoda's by a milestone, therefore, Yoda gets ragdolled or vaporized, he is no threat for god like Bane.

Sounds rediculous? I am sure it does. But that's exactly how you argue in favor of Bane against brothers.

The_Tempest

Ascendancy
It's stated in pretty much every series of Star Wars books that different Force users are skilled in different areas of the Force. One of the handbooks discusses the fact that Force speed feats are not equal among all Force users even when they are similar in power.

Since we're on the subject of Bane anyway, he speaks to Zannah having the potential to surpass him, yet he directs her towards sorcery because she has an affinity for it and trains her in Soresu because he sees that she will never be able to simply overpower her opponents. Clearly she is a strong Force user, but that does not directly translate into her having greater physical strength and speed than others. The knight who was wearing her down did not have nearly her total ability in the Force, but he was greatly skilled in directing the Force into saber combat. If raw power were all it took then he would have stood no chance against her.

We see Luke pin Caedus like a child, yet Luke didn't exactly come out unscathed once they engaged in saber combat. Innate ability, training, and total connection with the Force all play into what one can do.

Beyond that, if the Force were the end all, be all of combat then Mandos, assassins, etc would never be able to stand toe-to-toe with the Jedi and Sith.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Ascendancy
It's stated in pretty much every series of Star Wars books that different Force users are skilled in different areas of the Force. One of the handbooks discusses the fact that Force speed feats are not equal among all Force users even when they are similar in power.

Since we're on the subject of Bane anyway, he speaks to Zannah having the potential to surpass him, yet he directs her towards sorcery because she has an affinity for it and trains her in Soresu because he sees that she will never be able to simply overpower her opponents. Clearly she is a strong Force user, but that does not directly translate into her having greater physical strength and speed than others. The knight who was wearing her down did not have nearly her total ability in the Force, but he was greatly skilled in directing the Force into saber combat. If raw power were all it took then he would have stood no chance against her.

We see Luke pin Caedus like a child, yet Luke didn't exactly come out unscathed once they engaged in saber combat. Innate ability, training, and total connection with the Force all play into what one can do.

Beyond that, if the Force were the end all, be all of combat then Mandos, assassins, etc would never be able to stand toe-to-toe with the Jedi and Sith.

thumb up

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Tbh, I don’t particularly care that it irritates you. It’s a legitimate criticism to make; if two people can’t come to an agreement on single standards for a debate, there’s no point in having one. Ever.

Sounds fair.

The_Tempest

Nephthys
It basically means

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lt6cm9ZDt41qlsdsoo1_500.gif

The_Tempest
God, I'm so charming.

Arhael

Eminence
Nightbrothers win. Probably.

/thread

But Dooku would kick Bane's ass, let's just get that out of the way.

Ascendancy
Originally posted by Arhael

This is lame example. Caedus didn't try to use Force to break free because it would provoke fight. In actual fight Luke needed to catch him off guard in order to do successful Force attack. And Jacen demonstrated successful Force attack on Luke as well. Neither is superior with TK, when it comes to real combat.

You're joking right?

Took me a second to find it, but it could not be more clear how helpless Caedus was against Luke. He was fully aware of Luke before his uncle initiated the attack, yet could do nothing to stop it.

http://www.narutoforums.com/showpost.php?p=37578017&postcount=20

The passage itself speaks to Luke handling him like a child and making it clear that he was not even exerting the full extent of his abilities.

SebastianisI
Originally posted by Eminence
Nightbrothers win. Probably.

/thread

But Dooku would kick Bane's ass, let's just get that out of the way.

Not a chance bro.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
Er, no. Vader has always been portrayed as extremely powerful with the feats to match. Remember that quote saying he makes Kar Vastor look like a limp-wristed dandy? Vader's the shit.

Open to interpretation I suppose. But you won't see Vader ragdolling Marek without a hole in the latters chest. Not like how Marek treated him in that first game.

Which is why raw power isn't everything. Anakin is even more powerful than him and he's pretty meh at using the Force. Dooku either isn't as skilled in the use of lightning as he should be or he just doesn't hate enough. But those are justifications. The fact is, we cannot magically give him more powerful Force Lightning showings than he's actually performed. Just going 'he's really powerful' isn't evidence that he can charr to the bone or even kill with it. You may call it stupid, but it would be even stupider to make up feats for him that he doesn't have.

See my edit. Though the child is obviously immensely powerful.

Gonna have to disagree with you here Nepth. It's pretty clear that in the absence of feats, Dooku can be powerscaled to at least Darth Nyriss level, lighting wise. It'd be ridiculous to assume that Sidious and Dooku are vastly inferior to the likes of Darth Nyriss.

DARTH POWER
I can see there's a lot of butt hurt about just how awesome the Brothers Saber performance was against Sidious.

Yes the same Brothers who Obi-Wan bested in Sabers, which is clear proof now that Obi-Wan is a top-tier Saber duelist alongside Mace Windu and Darth Sidious.

So the pro-Sidious and anti-Zabrak camp here are just resorting to this ridiculous idea that "Sidious wasn't trying" to which I have few points to make:

1. The Sidious vs Yoda fight is clear proof that Sidious laughing and taking a pause in a fight DOES NOT mean when he IS fighting he's not doing so to the best of his ability.

2. Sidious's grunt before he knocks Maul out is clear proof he was struggling against the duo. (Not to mention getting knocked off a balcony isn't exactly what happens to someone whose in complete control of the fight).

3. Yes Sidious was winning the 2 on 1. But his far far superior force tk powers clearly played a large factor in that victory.

4. Sidious did attempt to floor the brothers with force powers and kicks whenever an opportunity cropped up.

5. Like it or not Maul in the final fight was fighting equally against Sidious in skill and in speed by himself. Even the Saber lock which Sidious won started with Maul in control. After which Sidious wastes no time to use his superior force powers to subdue Maul.

Conclusion- The Brothers were clearly more than just a challenge or a threat to Sidious in Sabers. Sidious however was always going to win via his far far superior force tk powers.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Arhael
Keeping them pinned untill he gets Force exhausted would not be a wise way to start a fight.

If he wanted to, he could have easily snapped their necks or Force Choked them.

Originally posted by Arhael
Oh, Plagueis DID NOT vaporize anyone with TK. You tend to misunderstand book text.

"He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians."

All but is the same as anything but. It is a hyperbolical implication that his TK did horrible damage. What exactly it did to them is unknown and is subject to reader's imagination. But what is for sure is that they were not atomized.

An interesting argument. And one I've brought up myself. To counter it however, you should know that Websters defines the phrase 'all but' as 'very nearly', indicating that Plageuis was fairly close to doing so i.e. he disintegrated them. Also a more accurate phrase than the one you used would be 'everything but', as the word 'all' describes an totality of quantity rather than of possibility.

Originally posted by Arhael
Manual is a guide to the game. It's description applies only to game, not entire Universe as it merely describes mechanics of the game. For the universe we have Guide to the Force and encyclopedias in general. Moreover, games tend to have non-canon Force powers that don't exist outside of the game and used solely to enhance gameplay.

And now I accuse you of bullshitting, unless you can provide actual quote from that source. This guide is not available for download anywhere and can be purchased only. I take it you have it on your hands since you know the info, so screenshot, please.

In the mean time the guide text is available online and this is the description of the power:

"Force Destruction - a giant fireball that causes tremendous splash damage.
Sends the enemies flying. More stars causes more damage, and a greater radius
of splash damage."

1. It confirms that this Force power is not TK but a fireball.
2. It confirms that it doesn't vaporize but makes opponents to fly away.
3. Fact: in game noone gets vaporized or torn to pieces.
4. Conclusion: your claim is a blatant lie.

Urgh, I can't believe you made me do actual effort in tracking down the manual. It says that Force Destruction 'This exploding force field power destroys everything near it.' So it's not a fireball either. Wookieepedia also says that there is other mentions of the power in The Book of Sith and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia (under energy trap). I'm attempting to find copies of these books to get you the quotes, so bare with me. If anyone reading this has those sources, please can you post the information for me, thank you.

Also, you got that description from Gamefaqs, didn't you. no expression

Originally posted by Arhael
Your opinion doesn't add any weight to the argument. We judge by what we can see and what is actually there.

And we can see that Sidious can't blitz either of the brothers. Even when he engaged Opress alone, he couldn't get past his defence with lightsabers and utilized kicks like Kenobi to concussion him.

As Tempest said, we see that Sidious did not blitz them, not that he couldn't. In Shadow Conspiracy Maul notes towards the end of the duel that Sidious is beginning to get faster, indicating that Sidious never fought at his full speed during the fight.

Originally posted by Arhael
Speed boost? Does it say that or you just make it up? He had power boost from nexus. Nexus increases power, not speed. It allowed Dooku to fight longer without getting tired.

'As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.'

The implication is clear, the text mentions speed then says that his bladework is heightened on Vjun, not merely that he had more stamina. It also does not need to be said, if Vjun increases Dooku's power then it increases how powerful his force powers are, including force speed.

Originally posted by Arhael
Let's do a recap.
You stated that Bane's speed feats are superior completely ignoring the fact that Maul fought at equal speed with Sidious because Maul is never described like wielding 12 lightsabers. Yet, when I pointed out that exactly the same applies to Yoda, you praise him for doing exactly the same thing as Maul - fighting Sidious at the same speed. Seriously, WTF???

As I said, there is clear evidence that Sidious was not unleashing his full speed against them.

Originally posted by Arhael
Really? You put up rediculous and speculative arguments already. I like how you defend Yoda as being "fast enough" for Bane. Now let me adopt your style and lowball Yoda.

Yoda in AotC struggles a lot to keep a pillar in air. In RotS heavily concentrates on a platform, which is not even heavy because of repulsors. In ESB he struggles to lift a starfighter. In comparison Bane topples entire building with single Force blast and disintegrates metal. Bane's feats surpass Yoda's by a milestone, therefore, Yoda gets ragdolled or vaporized, he is no threat for god like Bane.

Sounds rediculous? I am sure it does. But that's exactly how you argue in favor of Bane against brothers.

Yoda also tosses tank transport ships around with the Force. He is clearly immensely powerful enough so that Bane wouldn't be able to dominate him like he would the less powerful Zabrak brothers.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
If he wanted to, he could have easily snapped their necks or Force Choked them.





LOL I don't know if you noticed but he did kill Opress. So he clearly wasn't there to hold back on him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I
As I said, there is clear evidence that Sidious was not unleashing his full speed against them.




There's ZERO evidence of this. Stop trying to lowball the brother's performance.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL I don't know if you noticed but he did kill Opress. So he clearly wasn't there to hold back on him.



There's ZERO evidence of this. Stop trying to lowball the brother's performance.

But the argument has been made that he was toying with them. If he wasn't holding back on them, then why did he let them go and allow them to recover rather than press his advantage?

Evidence has been provided.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
But the argument has been made that he was toying with them. If he wasn't holding back on them, then why did he let them go and allow them to recover rather than press his advantage?

Evidence has been provided.

The fact that he did not use the force to defeat them does not mean he was holding back in the lightsaber duel.

Heck, at one point in the duel he even shows clear signs of fatigue suggesting it did take some effort to defeat the two of them.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
But the argument has been made that he was toying with them. If he wasn't holding back on them, then why did he let them go and allow them to recover rather than press his advantage?

Evidence has been provided.

No "Evidence" has been provided at all. An argument has been made by the Pro-Sidious and Zabrak haters who have joined forces on this in an attempt to present their "argument" as factual.

As for your argument, GOD FORBID that it was actually costing Sidious energy to hold 2 Force beasts at bay simultaneously.

The fact that he hit them full on and completely by surprise shows he wasn't just there for a play around. But was likely a legitimate attempt to overpower them from the get go.

There was absolutely no reason for him not to snap Opress's neck if it was really that easy for him to do so.

Wait for some canon sources on the fight and then see if it says anywhere that Sidious decided to play with the Zabraks for his own amusement. Until then go by how the fight actually went.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by ares834
The fact that he did not use the force to defeat them does not mean he was holding back in the lightsaber duel.

His cackles, grins, and apparent relaxation suggest it.



Or, more accurately, his acrobatics required effort. We see him loose a powerful Force push immediately after. To say nothing of his casual evasion of Savage. Only when Maul was enraged did anything like parity manifest, but we know Sidious had no intention of killing him; moreover, the website says Maul was no match for him even then.

All of this is underscored by the fact that Sidious was actively courting battle by releasing the brothers at the start. Even combined, they're not even close.

Eminence
BvnwLLXHabg#t=03m27s
3:27. solid rock exploding > flesh burning.


http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2151170-new_picture__9_.jpg

Silly line of thought anyway.


Quote? The whole fight would be nice if you have an electronic copy.


Bane cannot "dominate" the brothers in anything, Force included. Their TK showings might be better than his contextually and his only real fallback is lightning, which Savage can tank and (presumably) Maul knows how to neutralize like everyone else. And so we're clear, bolts of lightning that elicit explosions on contact with solid rock are probably not being generated by a "merely mediocre" user.


He also hammers through Jacen's defenses to rip apart his starfighter in (I believe) Revelation.

Q99

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Q99



Yea, that I'll buy. They only had some chance when they were keeping him busy with sword play.

Which is the best way to deal with a superior force user. After the sword fight commenced Sidious didn't waste any opportunities to get in Force attacks.

Also I would like to note that Maul levitated and pinned Obi-Wan against the wall with seeming ease. Does that mean he could have snapped his neck there and then? Does the fact that he didn't mean he was holding back? Doubt it.

The_Tempest
RE: Bane & the orbalisks, they afforded him a combat advantage, yes, but his mastery was at its height during DoE.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Eminence
BvnwLLXHabg#t=03m27s
3:27. solid rock exploding > flesh burning.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b4/Bellwitch/Icons/LOLcat%20icons%20my%20macros/Snerk.jpg There was an explosion, but no evidence that the rock actually suffered any damage. No rubble fell. Besides which he zaps Anakin and the guy is walking around a minute later. Besides which, I disagree that exploding rocks > charring to the bone or rendering them to ash. A lightning strike will shatter a rock if it hits due to heat difference, but it won't do the kind of damage that the greatest Force Lightning practitioners can achieve.

Originally posted by Eminence
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2151170-new_picture__9_.jpg

Silly line of thought anyway.

Does that actually kill them?

Originally posted by Eminence
Quote? The whole fight would be nice if you have an electronic copy.

I've been searching for the quote myself. I managed to find where Gideon posted the spoilers first, but the photobucket account is private. sad

Originally posted by Eminence
Bane cannot "dominate" the brothers in anything, Force included. Their TK showings might be better than his contextually and his only real fallback is lightning, which Savage can tank and (presumably) Maul knows how to neutralize like everyone else. And so we're clear, bolts of lightning that elicit explosions on contact with solid rock are probably not being generated by a "merely mediocre" user.

You're welcome to your opinion of course. What do you mean by 'contextually'? Bane can kill people with a single Force Push and disintegrate a dozen metal opponents with a palm thrust, Maul and Savage have never shown that level of power. I've also explained why I don't see Savage tanking Bane's lightning, which rendered a man to ash when struck with it and exceeds a million volts. And I don't see Maul as being capable of blocking Bane's lightning. What skill at defensive Force use has be shown that would give you that impression?

ares834
Originally posted by The_Tempest
His cackles, grins, and apparent relaxation suggest it.

He acts the same way while battling Yoda. It's only when he loses the advantage does he start snarling.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Or, more accurately, his acrobatics required effort. We see him loose a powerful Force push immediately after. To say nothing of his casual evasion of Savage. Only when Maul was enraged did anything like parity manifest, but we know Sidious had no intention of killing him; moreover, the website says Maul was no match for him even then.

All of this is underscored by the fact that Sidious was actively courting battle by releasing the brothers at the start. Even combined, they're not even close.

I am not claiming the brothers were a match for Sidious as he appears to be dominating them throughout the fight. Only that the fact that he shows sings of fatigue and was hit twice make it seem that the idea he was toying with the brothers is ill founded.

SebastianisI
lol

What's up with all the CWC fanboys/noobs popping up here lately?

Originally posted by Eminence
BvnwLLXHabg#t=03m27s
3:27. solid rock exploding > flesh burning.

Proof that it was the rock that exploded please.



and?



He can dominate them and he can do it whomever he pleases, he only loses the lightsaber only fight pre-orbalisks. His speed and TK alone will be enough to dominate them however he wishes.



What the f**k?

Who is this guy? laughing out loud

Nephthys
There is the possibility that the brothers are just fast enough to be able to avoid being blitzed by Sidious and to keep up with his attacks 2 on 1, while not actually being as fast as him or being capable of replicating his feats. It's similar to how I see Dooku's own speed in comparison to Yoda's.

I do however maintain that he wasn't fighting with his best efforts though.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by ares834
He acts the same way while battling Yoda.


Only when he had the advantage; when he was overpowering Yoda during the senate pod sequence.


Originally posted by ares834
It's only when he loses the advantage does he start snarling.


He snarls all throughout his duel with Mace, the first time being when he leaped from his chair, and the second was right before he even attacked Kolar.



Originally posted by ares834
I am not claiming the brothers were a match for Sidious as he appears to be dominating them throughout the fight. Only that the fact that he shows sings of fatigue and was hit twice make it seem that the idea he was toying with the brothers is ill founded.


I honestly don't think Palpatine would purposely fatique himself when, evidently, he could have finished them with the force alone. Palpatine obviously was not out to kill them in quick succession. In fact, he wasn't there to kill Maul at all. And we see how seriously he took Savage based on their 1-on-1 :/ . When I say Palpatine was toying with them, I mean that he wasn't fighting for his life, and that he didn't seem to find them a threat enough to fight them his absolute hardest. Also, based on the history of Palpatine's character, he is the type of guy who loves to savor his moment of superiority over others, which is what he was seemingly doing here.

Eminence
As this post wore on it originally got much harsher than I'd intended. I can't promise this won't upset you anyway, but I tried (to avoid it).

1. A chunk of rock very clearly shoots across the left side of the screen, it's hard to miss. This can safely be assumed to be the stone shattering (explosively) because Force lightning doesn't turn into fireballs anywhere else that I'm aware of. A "lightning strike" is not the same thing as Force lightning, but rest assured that sustained exposure to fifty thousand degrees will turn you to ashes, too. Yes, the scan is of several Kiffar dying. I wouldn't have selectively posted it otherwise. Shouldn't have been necessary at any rate, the notion that one of the most powerful Force users in history can't kill people with a professional version of something neophytes across the saga can do is actually really dumb. That his lightning wouldn't scale to his strength in the Force isn't much better.

2. You've gotten into the very bad habit of conflating the fact that certain characters have not done certain things with the presumption that they are not powerful enough to. I daresay men who can drag around starships (which Bane hasn't, amirite?) or blow apart a prison cell could TK blunt force trauma someone to death. Further:

Not actually that impressive. I've been on the other side of this argument, a long time ago, and as I recall it ends poorly. Others have taken up the rest of Bane's more famous feats and their roots in Force-strong worlds (Lehon, Tython, Ambria) with you. Anyway, based on his response to seven or so gouts of Count Dooku's occasionally two-handed lightning, I'm disinclined to believe that even if Bane has an opportunity to get a good blast out it would put him down for more than a few seconds. And it's not very much of a leap to conclude that Maul knows how to block Force lightning with a lightsaber like everybody else.

SebastianisI
For one you is ignoring that the power of his lightning was spread across dozens of enemies, and not just a single one.



It always amazes me what the fanboys try to come up with to discredit people they are biased against. Truth of the matter is that nobody has proven how much people on a powerful world amps your powers. I recall that Dooku was once on a world strong in the darkside, and while it made him more powerful, it did not make him drastically more powerful, he still wasn't good enough to beat Yoda. Would you aregue that being on Rataka would have made Bane even twice more powerful? Because even half of the power it took to destroy the temple is far beyond anything Tk related we see from the brothers or from Dooku. Take into account the rain feat and his incredible speed, it pretty clear Bane owns either Dooku or the brothers, either with power of TK or via speed blitz, unless you want to nerf him.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys

You're welcome to your opinion of course. What do you mean by 'contextually'? Bane can kill people with a single Force Push and disintegrate a dozen metal opponents with a palm thrust, Maul and Savage have never shown that level of power. I've also explained why I don't see Savage tanking Bane's lightning, which rendered a man to ash when struck with it and exceeds a million volts. And I don't see Maul as being capable of blocking Bane's lightning. What skill at defensive Force use has be shown that would give you that impression?

Savage has put down multiple destroyer droids with a single force wave. He's force pushed a Jedi starship off a cliff. But you don't think he could kill people with one?

Zabrak's are stronger than humans. Savage was already strong before his amp (punching holes in stone) as shown in his fight with Ventress.

The Amp multiplied his strength Ten fold according to Darth Maul:Restraint.

Then there's his body armor. He's tanked Blaster fire head on. And he tanked multiple shots of FL from Dooku without being KO'd. So it's just a real stretch to say Bane would incinerate him.

And jeez does Maul really need to show that he can catch FL with his Saber. You really think his Force defenses will be less advanced than AOTC Obi-Wan's? Pretty damn unlikely with the thorough training he received from Darth Sidious.

ares834
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Only when he had the advantage; when he was overpowering Yoda during the senate pod sequence.

Yes... He had the advantage throughout the entire duel with the brothers so he never had a reason to stop laughing.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He snarls all throughout his duel with Mace, the first time being when he leaped from his chair, and the second was right before he even attacked Kolar.

So?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
When I say Palpatine was toying with them, I mean that he wasn't fighting for his life, and that he didn't seem to find them a threat enough to fight them his absolute hardest. Also, based on the history of Palpatine's character, he is the type of guy who loves to savor his moment of superiority over others, which is what he was seemingly doing here.

Fair enough.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
There is the possibility that the brothers are just fast enough to be able to avoid being blitzed by Sidious and to keep up with his attacks 2 on 1, while not actually being as fast as him or being capable of replicating his feats. It's similar to how I see Dooku's own speed in comparison to Yoda's.

I do however maintain that he wasn't fighting with his best efforts though.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Only when he had the advantage; when he was overpowering Yoda during the senate pod sequence.

He snarls all throughout his duel with Mace, the first time being when he leaped from his chair, and the second was right before he even attacked Kolar.


I honestly don't think Palpatine would purposely fatique himself when, evidently, he could have finished them with the force alone. Palpatine obviously was not out to kill them in quick succession. In fact, he wasn't there to kill Maul at all. And we see how seriously he took Savage based on their 1-on-1 :/ . When I say Palpatine was toying with them, I mean that he wasn't fighting for his life, and that he didn't seem to find them a threat enough to fight them his absolute hardest. Also, based on the history of Palpatine's character, he is the type of guy who loves to savor his moment of superiority over others, which is what he was seemingly doing here.


You 2 really need to stop lowballing the Saber feats Opress, Maul and Obi-Wan have shown this season just because it doesn't go with how you perceive these combatants.

Fact is IF Sidious did to Maul and Opress the same thing Obi-Wan did in Sabers, then you lot would keep going on about how Sidious completely embarrassed the duo in Sabers and there was no competition e.t.c e.t.c. But the best you'll give Obi-Wan for doing just that is a comparison to Kit Fisto.

Until some canon source confirms that Sidious was toying with the duo you should keep that theory to yourselves and not bring it up as a "fact" in versus threads.

Nephthys
Yeah, you're probably right. Obi-Wan actually is equal to Sidious to be honest. Therefore he is in fact Yoda's superior, thereby automatically being better than Dooku as well rendering his defeat at the latters hands completely lewdicrous.

Thank you DP, you've solved Star Wars. thumb up

The_Tempest
So Neph, how long have you been an anti-Obi-Wan and pro-Sidious fanboy?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, you're probably right. Obi-Wan actually is equal to Sidious to be honest. Therefore he is in fact Yoda's superior, thereby automatically being better than Dooku as well rendering his defeat at the latters hands completely lewdicrous.

Thank you DP, you've solved Star Wars. thumb up


Nice use sarcasm to completely ignore the point.

For the record the last 2 seasons of Clone Wars have made it abundantly clear that Anakin and Obi-Wan are both top tier SABER DUELISTS.

That doesn't mean they would match the likes of Mace Windu and Darth Sidious in an all out.

And for the record Yoda is superior to Sidious.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys

I do however maintain that he wasn't fighting with his best efforts though.

That much is apparent.

Nephthys

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by ares834
Yes... He had the advantage throughout the entire duel with the brothers so he never had a reason to stop laughing.


Well, yeah. I agree.



Originally posted by ares834
So?


So a snarl does not necessarily mean that Palpatine was put at a disadvantage or that he was fatigued, considering that he was snarling before he even entered a duel with Mace and the jedi. Unless you want to argue that the snarl was bit different?


@Neph- you are lowballing the brothers because you don't accept DP's claim that the brothers could have overpowered Sidious in sabers.

Nephthys
Maybe I don't accept DP's claim that the brothers could have overpowered Sidious in sabers because I honestly agree with everything I'm saying?

ares834
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So a snarl does not necessarily mean that Palpatine was put at a disadvantage or that he was fatigued, considering that he was snarling before he even entered a duel with Mace and the jedi. Unless you want to argue that the snarl was bit different?

You must be talking about something different from me. I'm talking about after he knocks Savage away with a kick and gasps for breath. It's not a snarl at all.

Nephthys
Maybe his back twinged. He is a pretty old dude to be jumping around so much.

SIDIOUS 66
Yes which means that you are lowballing them.

DP doesn't want to accept well supported arguments, but he expects others to accept his silly notions.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by ares834
You must be talking about something different from me. I'm talking about after he knocks Savage away with a kick and gasps for breath. It's not a snarl at all.


I'm on mobile web right now so I don't feel like scrolling way back to check, but I thought you used the word snarl.

Anyway, I guess you can argue that. But in my opinion, he didn't seem too tired considering that he resorted to saber duel again instead of the force, and how he was easily evading all of Savage's attacks without having his sabers even ignited.

He just didn't seem to find Savage a threat at all by his conduct.

Q99
The one part he really did strike me as playing was when it was one-on-one him vs Savage. Even started out with his sabers off.

He did acknowledge Maul as a rival, but Opress was only useful as an addum to the team, not nearly a threat on his own.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Until some canon source confirms that Sidious was toying with the duo you should keep that theory to yourselves and not bring it up as a "fact" in versus threads.

Perhaps you should follow your own advice DP (regarding the Obi-Wan is a better swordsman than Kit argument).

Unless some canon quote stated that, then you should have kept it to yourself.

Your double standards grow tiring.

Q99
Hah, fun thing.

Clone Wars Who Will Fall? poster.

Sidious is pointing at Opress.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Q99
The one part he really did strike me as playing was when it was one-on-one him vs Savage. Even started out with his sabers off.

He did acknowledge Maul as a rival, but Opress was only useful as an addum to the team, not nearly a threat on his own.


Sidious was most likely refering to all the stuff Maul had accomplished in such little time. Maul became a threat to Sidious plans for galactic domination. Obviously Maul wasn't a rival as far as taking Sidious out in combat, because we see how effortlessly Sidious can ragdoll Maul with the force alone.

The_Tempest
^

What this guy said. It clearly wasn't referring to combat, but ambition. The official website confirms this: Sidious was content to observe Maul's actions from afar, but his conquest of Mandalore and desire to "rule entire worlds" threatened to upset Sidious's own scheme.

ares834
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm on mobile web right now so I don't feel like scrolling way back to check, but I thought you used the word snarl.

I only used it while talking about his duel with Yoda.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Anyway, I guess you can argue that. But in my opinion, he didn't seem too tired considering that he resorted to saber duel again instead of the force, and how he was easily evading all of Savage's attacks without having his sabers even ignited.

Just because he continues to engage Savage and Maul is a lightsaber duel does not mean he was not tired. Why else would he show a clear sign of fatigue? Anyway, it shouldn't take a ton of effort on Sidious's part to evade Savage's attacks. After all, Dooku was doing the same thing.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He just didn't seem to find Savage a threat at all by his conduct.

Certainly not when Maul was down.

Ascendancy
Originally posted by ares834


Just because he continues to engage Savage and Maul is a lightsaber duel does not mean he was not tired. Why else would he show a clear sign of fatigue? Anyway, it shouldn't take a ton of effort on Sidious's part to evade Savage's attacks. After all, Dooku was doing the same thing.



So your argument is that he was tired and fighting for his life, yet he chose to keep his sabers powered down rather than using them for defense? Your argument is also that it shouldn't take a lot of effort for him to evade, yet he was tired from doing so?

Just want to make sure that I have this correct.

ares834
Not at all. In fact, both are wrong. Had you actually read my posts rather than make massive assumptions you would realize this as I never claimed either.

Eminence
use your aggressive feelings boy.
http://www.troll.me/images/grinning-emperor-palpatine/good-use-your-aggressive-feelings-boy-let-the-hate-flow-through-you.jpg

Ascendancy
Originally posted by ares834
Not at all. In fact, both are wrong. Had you actually read my posts rather than make massive assumptions you would realize this as I never claimed either.

Gotcha. That's what you wrote but not what you meant. Clear and straight forward as can be.

ares834
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Gotcha. That's what you wrote but not what you meant. Clear and straight forward as can be.

Oh. And where did I write any of that? I never once said he was fighting for his life. Not once. In fact, when S66 claimed Sidious was not fighting for his life I agreed.

Nor did I state that he was tired from evading Savage's blows. By the time it's Sidious vs Savage and Sids begins to evade Savage's blows he is already tired. My point was since this should not take much effort he should be able to do this despite already being fatigued. This, of course, was in response to S66's post where he is claiming that since Palaptine was effortlessly evading Savage's blows he is likely not tired. Now I'll admit, had you read only my post I can understand the confusion but if you had read S66's post I was responding to it should be fairly obvious what I was saying.

SebastianisI
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Perhaps you should follow your own advice DP (regarding the Obi-Wan is a better swordsman than Kit argument).

Unless some canon quote stated that, then you should have kept it to yourself.

Your double standards grow tiring.

Greetings Maestro Takai, any thoughts on UFC 156?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Perhaps you should follow your own advice DP (regarding the Obi-Wan is a better swordsman than Kit argument).

Unless some canon quote stated that, then you should have kept it to yourself.

Your double standards grow tiring.

Exactly where are the double standards JT? Please enlighten me.

Kit Fisto got Uber blitzed by Sidious. Something that clearly doesn't happen to Opress, so obviously wouldn't happen to Obi-Wan. Not even close.

The real double standard here is people insisting on comparing Fisto and Obi-Wan from their early CW fights against Grievous. But then refusing to make a similar comparison of how Obi-Wan did against the brothers compared to Sidious (in Sabers).

If your referring to the Cestus Deception that is a completely moot point. That was just after AOTC. Obi-Wan has proven himself to have grown superior to Ventress since then(as early as the CW movie). Fisto hasn't.

In fact his blitz by Sidious is clear proof he wasn't even close to a late CW or ROTS Obi-Wan.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes which means that you are lowballing them.

DP doesn't want to accept well supported arguments, but he expects others to accept his silly notions.

LOL..

Well supported arguments my ass. Make all the excuses you want for Maul doing so well in the Saber fight S66.

It's just like the "well supported arguments" people used to give to claim Sidious threw the fight against Mace Windu.

Then Lucas comes out and says Mace legitimately overpowered him which shut most of them up.

Moral of the story (which you guys obviously haven't learned):

Accept the fight that's given, unless a canon source clearly states that there's something else going on behind the scenes.


And what was the fight given? Sidious had the upper hand the whole fight due to his far superior TK powers. But the Saber fight was more than just a challenge for him. Heck Maul alone held his own in Sabers and was even stalemating him in the last fight.



Of course your reactions were all predictable. Tempest masturbating over Sidious's TK then going completely over the top claiming Sidious could have killed them any time and they were no challenge at all. Predictable.

S66 claiming Sidious wasn't trying after his butt hurt of seeing Maul do so well against Sidious in Sabers. Also predictable.

Neph agreeing with both ridiculous claims because he clearly doesn't like the Zabraks. Completely predictable.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Eminence, this is the droids quote you're looking for:

'Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.'

Now I'm likely so biased that the words are literal hallucinations designed to conform to my twisted world-view, but to me that definitely suggests Sidious steadily increasing his speed to overwhelm Maul.

Yeah and all this is completely non-canon. Because what actually happened was Maul brought Dual Sabers to the last fight and was stalemating Sidious back and forth (in Speed and Skill) for a while.
Heck Maul was even parrying both of Sidious's sabers with just on arm on more than one occasion. Oh and the Saber lock started off with Sidious on his Knees wink
Then eventually Sidious overpowers Maul in the Saber lock, and wastes no time to use his superior force powers on him.

Q99
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious was most likely refering to all the stuff Maul had accomplished in such little time. Maul became a threat to Sidious plans for galactic domination. Obviously Maul wasn't a rival as far as taking Sidious out in combat, because we see how effortlessly Sidious can ragdoll Maul with the force alone.

Hey, putting up as much fight as he did is still pretty impressive smile

And he had a strong student who would grow in skill over time.

The_Tempest
Per the website and Filoni, Sidious is never on the losing end of this duel and always has the upper hand (which precludes a stalemate). Moreover, he was enjoying himself. But the most damning statement of all? Filoni describes this brawl as an ass kicking.

And so the intangible notion of Zabrak parity fades away like smoke in the wind.

/discussion

DARTH POWER
And yet no where does it say in any of these sources that Sidious was holding back. That's just a made up fallacy on this board.

Of course he did kick ass out of both of them. We all saw that.

Of course against Maul all the "ass kicking" shown was through Sidious's superior force powers. He held his own in Sabers right up until the Saber lock at the end.

So yeah /discussion.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet no where does it say in any of these sources that Sidious was holding back. That's just a made up fallacy on this board.

Of course he did kick ass out of both of them. We all saw that.

Of course against Maul all the "ass kicking" shown was through Sidious's superior force powers. He held his own in Sabers right up until the Saber lock at the end.

So yeah /discussion.

Let's see... laughing and grinning the ENTIRE time, not going for the kill on several occasions, nonchalantly battling Oppress/toying with him, flat-out stating that he wasn't going to kill Maul, casually owning both of them with the Force... the list goes on and on and on...

And as was already pointed out; Sidious seems to laugh only when he's toying with another opponent and doesn't feel that he's in any danger.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I already acknowledged the extraordinary difficulty in trying to navigate that, but let's be honest: it's not like that sort of thing hasn't been going on for ages now.

Starkiller and The Force Unleashed is a prime example of that. We see Vader labor around like a geriatric against geriatrics in the original trilogy, but here he's collapsing buildings, throwing big ass platforms like frisbees, and generally being a badass to an exponentially greater degree. Starkiller drags capital ships out of orbit, flexes his arms and disintegrates them entirely, and so on.

Feat-to-feat, he'd waste Bane... but no one likes to say that.

Star Wars: The Clone Wars mortally injured the notion that "lol Obi-Wan is teh 4th best Jedi in the PT!" by seeding the series with rivals who, despite their paltry exposure, compete with him on some level.
Very good point.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
It's stated in pretty much every series of Star Wars books that different Force users are skilled in different areas of the Force. One of the handbooks discusses the fact that Force speed feats are not equal among all Force users even when they are similar in power.

Since we're on the subject of Bane anyway, he speaks to Zannah having the potential to surpass him, yet he directs her towards sorcery because she has an affinity for it and trains her in Soresu because he sees that she will never be able to simply overpower her opponents. Clearly she is a strong Force user, but that does not directly translate into her having greater physical strength and speed than others. The knight who was wearing her down did not have nearly her total ability in the Force, but he was greatly skilled in directing the Force into saber combat. If raw power were all it took then he would have stood no chance against her.

We see Luke pin Caedus like a child, yet Luke didn't exactly come out unscathed once they engaged in saber combat. Innate ability, training, and total connection with the Force all play into what one can do.

Beyond that, if the Force were the end all, be all of combat then Mandos, assassins, etc would never be able to stand toe-to-toe with the Jedi and Sith.
Very good point.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Gonna have to disagree with you here Nepth. It's pretty clear that in the absence of feats, Dooku can be powerscaled to at least Darth Nyriss level, lighting wise. It'd be ridiculous to assume that Sidious and Dooku are vastly inferior to the likes of Darth Nyriss.
Seriously?

When have Count Dooku demonstrated the ability to utterly destroy individuals of the caliber of Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik with FL?

Sidious seems to be close to Nyriss in this aspect. However, I am hesitant to put even him on par with Nyriss in this context since he haven't utterly destroyed powerful opponents with FL either.

Make no mistake; Nyriss is actually an extraordinarily powerful Force-wielder and can be easily ranked among the most prominent ones in the mythos. She put the likes of Nihilus, Traya and Sion to shame and these 3 aren't weaklings either but very powerful individuals in their own right.

Dark Councilors of TOR era comprise of some real bad@sses.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by jmoul
1. PoD Bane
2. RoT Bane
3. DoE Bane
IMO,

1. 50/50
2. Bane with Orbalisks? 100%
3. Bane (most likely)

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Let's see... laughing and grinning the ENTIRE time,

Kind of like he was against Yoda. Oh and not the entire time. Refer to his face expression before knocking Maul out.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
not going for the kill on several occasions,,

Like when? Your assuming he could have killed them on those instances.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
nonchalantly battling Oppress/toying with him,

When was that? As others have pointed out Sidious clearly showed signs of struggle and fatigue before his one on one with Opress. And considering he did kill Opress I don't know what your trying to prove here.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
flat-out stating that he wasn't going to kill Maul,

Yeah after he had had killed Opress and defeated Maul. Who the heck says that was even his intention from the beginning of the fight?

Besides didn't Mace Windu defeat Sidious without killing him? Didn't Anakin defeat Dooku without killing him? Were either of them holding back?

Let's not pretend Sidious wouldn't have been willing to chop off a limb or 2. And that's even assuming he had already made up his mind about not killing him right at the beginning.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
casually owning both of them with the Force...

This was his major superiority in the fight.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
the list goes on and on and on...

No it's just all butt hurt at the Zabraks doing well in Sabers. Especially Maul.

If I was to analyze so desperately I would say Maul was holding back because he Flat out says at the beginning of the fight that he wants to serve Sidious.

I would say Opress wasn't out for the kill because when he knocked Sidious off the balcony he didn't use his Saber to stab him.

See how over analysis and speculation can go both ways yet?
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai

And as was already pointed out; Sidious seems to laugh only when he's toying with another opponent and doesn't feel that he's in any danger.

Just refer to his fight with Yoda. He took a pause and didn't go for the kill when Yoda was knocked out. He was smiling while starting the Saber fight. He was laughing while throwing the senate pods. It's clearly in character for him to act in such a way.

Your gonna have to try harder JT.

Fact is Zabraks did well in Sabers, especially Maul. A lot of you here don't like that idea. So the unfounded unproven theory of Sidious holding back will continue but really shouldn't be used in versus threads anymore than than when people used to claim Sidious threw the fight against Windu.

S_W_LeGenD
@ DP

You bring forth some legitimate points.

Yes, Sidious could have killed Yoda early on when he knocked him out with a burst of his FL; but he didn't. Now based on this one moment of loss, should we assume that Yoda is no match for Sidious in combat and will always loose?

Star Wars is about dramatic conflicts; they keep us guessing.

DARTH POWER
Found this on the official website:

Sidious sees through Maul's lies -- he views the Zabrak not as an apprentice, but as a rival to be destroyed.

That clearly shows Sidious wasn't holding back when the fight began. which Tempest very sneakliy left out when he was quoting the same source.

There's also this:

Fueled by the dark side, Sidious is transformed into an agile, whirlwind of destruction.

That again doesn't sound at all like Sidious was holding back. That whole argument seems weaker with each official quote.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@ DP

You bring forth some legitimate points.

Yes, Sidious could have killed Yoda early on when he knocked him out with a burst of his FL; but he didn't. Now based on this one moment of loss, should we assume that Yoda is no match for Sidious in combat and will always loose?

Star Wars is about dramatic conflicts; they keep us guessing.

Exactly.

Jinsoku Takai
DP - At the beginning of his duel with Yoda he thought full and well that he had nothing to worry about until Yoda Force pushed his ass across the room. The same holds true when he was tossing senate pods at Yoda, who was trying desperately to not get crushed to death. His laughter occurs when he feels that he is in control and has nothing to worry about. And yes, he was smiling while dueling Maul, save for the brief kick to the chest that Maul delivered, at which point Sidious overpowered Mauls saber lock and finished things. Sidious could have finished that fight whenever he felt like it, and he did.

He was having fun out there, and it showed throughout the duel. Quit ignoring the obvious to further your very desperate argument.

And YES, Sidious could have killed them both from the get-go had he wanted to do so. He could have easily ping-ponged them all over the damn place, ESPECIALLY given their initial, uhmmm, positioning, and the fact that he was showing that absolutely no effort was being exerted in order to place them in such a predicament.

Sidious was laughing hysterically, as I do when playing/wrestling with my 2 kids. He was having fun out there. The moment that Maul made the slightest 'semblance of posing a threat, Sidious ended it.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Found this on the official website:

Sidious sees through Maul's lies -- he views the Zabrak not as an apprentice, but as a rival to be destroyed.



Did he destroy him? NO HE DIDN'T... He said he wasn't going to kill him (That kind of shits all over your quote!). Therefore, he was HOLDING BACK.

I can sure as hell guarantee you that Maul, and by extension Oppress, wanted to kill him. BIG DIFFERENCE DP!

BTW: You'll have to try harder.

ares834
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Did he destroy him? NO HE DIDN'T... He said he wasn't going to kill him (That kind of shits all over your quote!). Therefore, he was HOLDING BACK.

Not necessarily. Frankly, saying Sidious, despite how much he outmatched the brothers, was holding back is making far too many assumptions specifically since we do see signs of struggle from Sidious like getting hit twice and a brief moment of fatigue.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by ares834
Not necessarily. Frankly, saying Sidious, despite how much he outmatched the brothers, was holding back is making far too many assumptions specifically since we do see signs of struggle from Sidious like getting hit twice and a brief moment of fatigue.

Not really. When Savage knocked Sidious off the balcony, we saw him smile. The only hit he took that elicited any serious reaction from Sidious was Maul's kick at the end; Sidious ended the fight one move later.

The fatigue is an indicator of expended energy, rather like Yoda, Sidious is demonically acrobatic.

We know he was enjoying himself and clearly courted battle. Otherwise he could have ended the clash in the throne room.

ares834
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really. When Savage knocked Sidious off the balcony, we saw him smile. The only hit he took that elicited any serious reaction from Sidious was Maul's kick at the end; Sidious ended the fight one move later.

Savage's blow may not have actually done anything, but he still managed to get past Sidious defenses. If Sidious truly outmatched the brothers by as much as some seem to believe that should not happen.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The fatigue is an indicator of expended energy, rather like Yoda, Sidious is demonically acrobatic.

Sure. But that's the point, he did expend that much energy in the duel. If he was just toying with them there would be no need to. My point is Sidious is putting effort into this duel.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We know he was enjoying himself and clearly courted battle. Otherwise he could have ended the clash in the throne room.

I'm not denying that. Only that once he engages them in sabers it does not appear he is holding back.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Did he destroy him? NO HE DIDN'T... He said he wasn't going to kill him (That kind of shits all over your quote!). Therefore, he was HOLDING BACK.

The difference is that canon quote is referring to the beginning of the duel. Whilst it was at the end of the fight he says he's not going to kill him.

There's your big difference.

Maul also makes it clear in the novel that Sidious was always "willing" to kill him but this was the first time he was actually "trying" to kill him. He can clearly tell the difference.

So canon quotes from the site and the novel all trounce speculation.


Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
BTW: You'll have to try harder.

Hahaha

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The difference is that canon quote is referring to the beginning of the duel. Whilst it was at the end of the fight he says he's not going to kill him.

There's your big difference.

Maul also makes it clear in the novel that Sidious was always "willing" to kill him but this was the first time he was actually "trying" to kill him. He can clearly tell the difference.

So canon quotes from the site and the novel all trounce speculation.




Hahaha

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai

And YES, Sidious could have killed them both from the get-go had he wanted to do so. He could have easily ping-ponged them all over the damn place, ESPECIALLY given their initial, uhmmm, positioning, and the fact that he was showing that absolutely no effort was being exerted in order to place them in such a predicament.



Originally posted by The_Tempest

We know he was enjoying himself and clearly courted battle. Otherwise he could have ended the clash in the throne room.

Arhael
He admits that he is caught by surprise and that he is at disadvantage position. He tried to move physically on several occasions. But nowhere it mentions him making at least slight Force exertion.

Here is another example of Luke pinning someone:
"Khai’s threat came to a startled end as he went sailing across the Pool. He slammed into the far wall of the grotto and remained there, pinned in
place by the invisible hand of the Force."

However, when fight started Gavar wasn't helpless and still could use the Force to attack Luke:

"Ben was vaguely aware of his own father diving toward the far side of the cavern, and the delicate clinkle
of Gavar Khai’s shikkar shattering on the stone floor behind him".

Arhael
If he wanted to, he could have easily snapped their necks or Force Choked them.
I've already conceded on this possibilty.

By the way after analysing it more I see it as demonstration of surprise attack rather than overpowering.

Brothers didn't expect the attack. Maul was kneeling and submitting himself. Sidious even turned away from them making it look like he is no threat.

Then brothers got concussioned as result of both Force blast and slamming the wall. Then he kept pressing them with such strength that wall started crushing.

Imho being concussioned and pressed against the wall broke their concentration preventing them from using Force properly to counter Sidious.


Because I tried to dig it myself and failed. Even favorite Russian websites didn't help me.

If it says "destroy" in that source then spare your effort because destroy is not the same as vaporize and has many meanings:
4. To kill: destroy a rabid dog.
5. To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.
6. To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.

In old Marvel cartoons "destroy" is used as replacement of "kill" to make it suitable for young audience.

And yes, I took that quote from bloody FAQ because manual is unavailable. >sad


Which still means that Sidious not fighting at full speed is assumption, not a fact.


It, also, can mean that Sidious gradually reaches deeper concentration through constant focus as in many SW examples or that his anger level gradually increases boosting him more and more. Anything is possible really.

In any case that's not what happens in TCW, on opposite Sidious gets kicked right at the end, which doesn't really support this idea.


Not really. Yes, it increases power and performance but it doesn't necessarily increases speed. Greater power doesn't give superior speed as many examples suggest. As example Maul didn't have much advantage in speed against Mansalor who had no power at all. And of course examples with characters that have significant power difference like Luke vs Lumya, Abeloth vs Luke, Kenobi vs Anakin and so on.


WHERE?

His limits are well shown in AotC and ESB, which are higher canon than that mini cartoon.


That's not necessarily true. Maul and Sidious fight evenly before Opress rejoins the fight with a headbutt.

Rookwood
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You think Bane is a match for Sidious?

Bane would stomp RotS Sidious into the ground.

DE Sidious, would have a chance, though.

DARTH POWER
The featurette to The Lawless had Dave Filoni saying about Opress that: "He puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council did. I'll say that much for him."

So again there was no holding back. Opress is simply better than Tiin + Kolar + Fisto.

Every source on the subject is confirming there was no holding back by Sidious.

Nephthys
Clearly wrong since the Jedi Council team (as in, Mace) actually won their fight. erm

ares834
Obviously he was talking about the "three musketeers".

Nephthys
Then he should have said that, because Windu is also on the Jedi Council so he included him in there too. hmph

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The featurette to The Lawless had Dave Filoni saying about Opress that: "He puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council did. I'll say that much for him."

So again there was no holding back. Opress is simply better than Tiin + Kolar + Fisto.

Every source on the subject is confirming there was no holding back by Sidious.

Gee, interesting... I don't recall Sidious toying with the Jedi Council with his lightsaber deactivated as he did with Oppress.

And Sidious CLEARLY (see what I did there DP?) took the arrest threat more seriously seeing as how he went STRAIGHT for the kill and was most definitely NOT laughing hysterically as he was against the brothers.

Nephthys
Well Oppress did manage to put up some fight. Which is better than the non-fight the 3 twats gave him. But only because Sidious allowed him to put up more of a fight imo.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well Oppress did manage to put up some fight. Which is better than the non-fight the 3 twats gave him. But only because Sidious allowed him to put up more of a fight imo.

Exactly right N.

The_Tempest
Yeah, Opress putting up a better fight and Sidious going easy on him aren't mutually exclusive.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Gee, interesting... I don't recall Sidious toying with the Jedi Council with his lightsaber deactivated as he did with Oppress.

Was Dooku toying with Opress as well?

The fact that he was more careful against Opress in a one on one says a lot. Let's not forget the 3 Council members were together and with Mace Windu.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
And Sidious CLEARLY (see what I did there DP?) took the arrest threat more seriously seeing as how he went STRAIGHT for the kill and was most definitely NOT laughing hysterically as he was against the brothers.

This laughing argument is getting tiring. Yeah let's just ignore the director of the show and the official website and just base everything on Sidious's level of laughter.

I've given enough evidence. The fact that not even one of you is ready to concede a point based on nothing but very subjective speculation says a lot.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well Oppress did manage to put up some fight. Which is better than the non-fight the 3 twats gave him. But only because Sidious allowed him to put up more of a fight imo.

No. Because if Sidious allowed him to then there would be no comparison to make. But Filoni specifically makes that comparison.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, Opress putting up a better fight and Sidious going easy on him aren't mutually exclusive.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Arhael


Then brothers got concussioned as result of both Force blast and slamming the wall. Then he kept pressing them with such strength that wall started crushing.

Imho being concussioned and pressed against the wall broke their concentration preventing them from using Force properly to counter Sidious.




Actually given what the website says that might actually be evidence that he did attempt to crush them there and then.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by ares834
Savage's blow may not have actually done anything, but he still managed to get past Sidious defenses. If Sidious truly outmatched the brothers by as much as some seem to believe that should not happen.

This does not follow. We have precedent of Sidious failing to press his advantage and suffer from it (twice) and even with Maul himself in TPM.



Again, this does not follow. Sidious slackened after an extreme display of acrobatics, not unlike Yoda. He immediately felled Maul with a Force push after and went on to slay Opress without visible difficulty.

The exertion came from the stunts, not the brothers.



The evidence suggests otherwise.

Arhael
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Did he destroy him? NO HE DIDN'T... He said he wasn't going to kill him (That kind of shits all over your quote!). Therefore, he was HOLDING BACK.
That's so wrong.
Force user doesn't need to hold back, if he doesn't want to kill someone. Anakin didn't kill Dooku(as result of winning fight). Windu didn't kill Sidious. Luke didn't kill Sidious. Kenoni didn't kill Opress. Maul didn't kill Kenobi. Dooku didn't kill Kenobi. Kenobi didn't kill Anakin. Luke didn't kill Vader. And many many other examples. Were they all holding back? Don't think so.

Look at how Sidious killed Opress. He concussed him with kicks, Opress was already in no position to defend. If Sidious didn't want to kill him, he could use instead of lightsaber lightning, TK or another knock down kick. This choice at the last moment wouldn't mean that he held back whole fight before that.

Also, I practiced sword fight myself and can assure you that fingers and wrists are by far the easiest targets to attack, which are not lethal in SW.


And stunts were required to dodge attacks of brothers, were they not?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Arhael
And stunts were required to dodge attacks of brothers, were they not?

Obviously not, otherwise Dooku and Obi-Wan would have moved very differently.

ares834
Originally posted by The_Tempest
This does not follow. We have precedent of Sidious failing to press his advantage and suffer from it (twice) and even with Maul himself in TPM.

It does follow. Were he truly orders of magnitude greater than the duo, as some seem to believe, they should not be able to touch him. It's not a matter of Sidious failing to press his advantage; it's a matter of slipping past his defenses.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The exertion came from the stunts, not the brothers.

He was performing the stunts because of the brothers.

Also I must ask, how do you know this? It may be a reasonable assumption, but an assumption is not fact and that's how you seem to be presenting it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The evidence suggests otherwise.

Not at all when it comes to sabers.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Arhael
I've already conceded on this possibilty.

By the way after analysing it more I see it as demonstration of surprise attack rather than overpowering.

Brothers didn't expect the attack. Maul was kneeling and submitting himself. Sidious even turned away from them making it look like he is no threat.

Then brothers got concussioned as result of both Force blast and slamming the wall. Then he kept pressing them with such strength that wall started crushing.

Imho being concussioned and pressed against the wall broke their concentration preventing them from using Force properly to counter Sidious.

Good. Goooooooooood

This might be an argument were it not for the fact that we can see the brothers visibly straining against Sidious' hold. It stands to reason that if they were physically able to strain, then they could do so with the Force as well.

Originally posted by Arhael
Because I tried to dig it myself and failed. Even favorite Russian websites didn't help me.

If it says "destroy" in that source then spare your effort because destroy is not the same as vaporize and has many meanings:
4. To kill: destroy a rabid dog.
5. To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.
6. To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.

In old Marvel cartoons "destroy" is used as replacement of "kill" to make it suitable for young audience.

And yes, I took that quote from bloody FAQ because manual is unavailable. >sad

It says 'destroy everything'. Merely killing or subduing would not be destroying everything as there would still be bodies left.

I'm still looking for the other sources on it. When I find them I will post the other evidence.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which still means that Sidious not fighting at full speed is assumption, not a fact.

No, it is a theory. It is no less valid than the idea that Sidious was fighting at full speed, moreso since the evidence points this way.

Originally posted by Arhael
It, also, can mean that Sidious gradually reaches deeper concentration through constant focus as in many SW examples or that his anger level gradually increases boosting him more and more. Anything is possible really.

In any case that's not what happens in TCW, on opposite Sidious gets kicked right at the end, which doesn't really support this idea.

If that were the case Sidious' speed would be gradually increasing throughout the whole fight, not merely when he was fighting Maul. If anything this supports my argument since if Sidious was not fully concentrating or fighting at his peak speed during his fight with the brothers then he clearly was toying with them and not giving his all against them.

Anger? Sidious is laughing throughout the fight.

The CWC contradicts the specifics of the fight, but not the idea that Sidious was getting faster. It's still valid.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not really. Yes, it increases power and performance but it doesn't necessarily increases speed. Greater power doesn't give superior speed as many examples suggest. As example Maul didn't have much advantage in speed against Mansalor who had no power at all. And of course examples with characters that have significant power difference like Luke vs Lumya, Abeloth vs Luke, Kenobi vs Anakin and so on.

Force Speed is a Force power. I see no reason why a boost to power would not also boost speed. There are numerous examples of a nexus increasing ones Force powers, why would it not increase Force speed. The text even notes this happening.

Originally posted by Arhael
WHERE?

Have you not been reading the thread?

Originally posted by Arhael
His limits are well shown in AotC and ESB, which are higher canon than that mini cartoon.

No they aren't. And in ESB he is incredibly enfeebled.

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