Dormammu Vs Shuma-Gorath

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Golgo13
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/52044/1399638-dormamu_03_large.jpg

vs

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/71161/2094693-shuma_gorath_large.png

Endless Mike
Shuma

zopzop
Dormammu, based on fights and the level of his opponents.

TheGodKiller
Shuma wins.

CortSether
Shuma-Gorath, all day and every day - Unless Dormammu gets that cosmic axis shift plot device or zopzop is writing the comic, since we all know he has a tentacle phobia.

SevenShackles
Wasn't dormammu sub servant to shuma?

CortSether
Originally posted by SevenShackles
Wasn't dormammu sub servant to shuma?

No. Only connection they had in the comics was Shuma-Gorath creating a fake Dormammu that told Strange that before Shuma-Gorath he was his most powerful foe and he wished to reclaim the title. Strange brushes it off and says that the real Dormammu wouldn't admit inferiority to anyone.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
Shuma-Gorath, all day and every day - Unless Dormammu gets that cosmic axis shift plot device or zopzop is writing the comic, since we all know he has a tentacle phobia.
Oh you. roll eyes (sarcastic)

We all know Dormammu has gone up against much more impressive foes than Gorath has.

Dormammu locks horns with Eternity and Odin. He's created a Hell Lord that's the rival of Mephisto (Satannish).

Shuma has his hands full with the Salem Seven. laughing

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
Oh you. roll eyes (sarcastic)

We all know Dormammu has gone up against much more impressive foes than Gorath has.

Dormammu locks horns with Eternity and Odin. He's created a Hell Lord that's the rival of Mephisto (Satannish).

Shuma has his hands full with the Salem Seven. laughing

Shuma sh!ts on all those that you've mentioned, save for Eternity, and Dormammu's never done squat with his own personal power against Eternity and has had to rely on plot haxx to stand a chance. Without it he got utterly stomped. And besides, Nightmare has manipulated Eternity as well through plot devices so Dormammu isn't even unique in that sense.

Shuma was kicking the crap out of the Salem Seven even when weak and hungry. So...

Shuma tentaclerapes Dormammu.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
Shuma sh!ts on all those that you've mentioned, save for Eternity, and Dormammu's never done squat with his own personal power against Eternity and has had to rely on plot haxx to stand a chance. Without it he got utterly stomped. And besides, Nightmare has manipulated Eternity as well through plot devices so Dormammu isn't even unique in that sense.

Shuma was kicking the crap out of the Salem Seven even when weak and hungry. So...

Shuma tentaclerapes Dormammu.
Yeah right he does. Post scans of Shuma sh|tting over opponents Mephisto/Satannish/Odin level. Then we'll talk.

Dormammu kamikazeed Eternity and wound up shattering his form. Eternity healed and so did Dormammu....................eventually.

Shuma Gorath was being made a FOOL of by the Salem Seven by exploiting his "vertigo weakness"! laughing
FAIL.

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah right he does. Post scans of Shuma sh|tting over opponents Mephisto/Satannish/Odin level. Then we'll talk.

Dormammu kamikazeed Eternity and wound up shattering his form. Eternity healed and so did Dormammu....................eventually.

Shuma Gorath was being made a FOOL of by the Salem Seven by exploiting his "vertigo weakness"! laughing
FAIL.

Post scans of someone Mephisto/Satannish/Odin level killing someone on the level of the Ancient One just by having influence over a realm that person was in.

Or better yet, post scans of one of those guys dominating a realm and its lord without having to go there.

You know as well as I do that had Shuma-Gorath had a 'vertigo' weakness, Strange would have been quick to exploit it as soon as Shuma tried to pull some crap on Earth. You'd think that the Ancient One or even Sise-Neg, who was near infallible at that point, would have exploited that as well if it actually was a weakness. That said, if you want to use that argument there and bring up ridiculous exaggerations/inconsistencies from an author, at least Shuma's never been reduced to having fist fights with Hank Pym. laughing out loud

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
Post scans of someone Mephisto/Satannish/Odin level killing someone on the level of the Ancient One just by having influence over a realm that person was in.

Or better yet, post scans of one of those guys dominating a realm and its lord without having to go there.

You know as well as I do that had Shuma-Gorath had a 'vertigo' weakness, Strange would have been quick to exploit it as soon as Shuma tried to pull some crap on Earth. You'd think that the Ancient One or even Sise-Neg, who was near infallible at that point, would have exploited that as well if it actually was a weakness. That said, if you want to use that argument there and bring up ridiculous exaggerations/inconsistencies from an author, at least Shuma's never been reduced to having fist fights with Hank Pym. laughing out loud
AO was on the way out and Dr. Strange was on the way in for the SS spot. That guy, AO, was told to be careful not to overexert himself because he was so frail! Some feat roll eyes (sarcastic)

You are seriously referring to Nightmare being controlled by Gorath as an impressive feat?! ROFLMAO! Oh man, go ahead and post the scan of Strange owning him in a H2H fight and slapping him around like a cheap whore to get the info from him. Real impressive.

It was stated ON PANEL that Gorath has a vertigo weakness! Take that up with Marvel, not me. I didn't write the issue.

Oh and that wasn't Eternity punching Pym, that was Loki trolling Pym! So......

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
AO was on the way out and Dr. Strange was on the way in for the SS spot. That guy, AO, was told to be careful not to overexert himself because he was so frail! Some feat roll eyes (sarcastic)

You are seriously referring to Nightmare being controlled by Gorath as an impressive feat?! ROFLMAO! Oh man, go ahead and post the scan of Strange owning him in a H2H fight and slapping him around like a cheap whore to get the info from him. Real impressive.

It was stated ON PANEL that Gorath has a vertigo weakness! Take that up with Marvel, not me. I didn't write the issue.

Oh and that wasn't Eternity punching Pym, that was Loki trolling Pym! So......

Kaluu doesn't have AO's physical frailty so what's your point? This is a guy that's used white and black magic alike and invoked spells from Chthon's Darkhold, as well as learned magic from members of the Octessence after spending time in Ragaddor's dimension. He also took on both Dr Strange and the Ancient One at the same time as a formidable opponent, yet even he couldn't make it to a realm of Shuma's servant when he was tutoring Strange. Funny how Strange with even less power than that was doing a fine job of making Zom look like a fool years earlier...

Yes, Shuma-Gorath enslaving Nightmare is an impressive feat. Regardless of what anyone has done to Nightmare in the past, they still had to actually be present in his realm to do so. Nightmare's domain is located even beyond the sixth dimension, so Shuma being able to control the realm and the one in charge of it without even going there is impressive. It says a lot about his scope of influence.

Even if you want to count that lame vertigo weakness narration, it's never been exploited or even referenced in Shuma-Gorath's future appearances. So aside from it being an ignorant statement by an ignorant author, the 'vertigo weakness' is certainly retconned to not exist or is only attributable to Shuma-Gorath when "weak and hungry after long slumber", just like how Galactus is only getting taken down by Doc Strange with the wave of a hand when starved.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
Kaluu doesn't have AO's physical frailty so what's your point? This is a guy that's used white and black magic alike and invoked spells from Chthon's Darkhold, as well as learned magic from members of the Octessence after spending time in Ragaddor's dimension. He also took on both Dr Strange and the Ancient One at the same time as a formidable opponent, yet even he couldn't make it to a realm of Shuma's servant when he was tutoring Strange. Funny how Strange with even less power than that was doing a fine job of making Zom look like a fool years earlier...
That very Strange fought against the LT and held his own, FAIL on your part. laughing

Fact is, Strange even with the AO's power never beat Zom. How many times has he humiliated Gorath? I lost count.

Kaluu is a joke. Post feats and fights for him please. Otherwise, silence.


Yeah, impressive.....not. Post the Nightmare/Strange fight so we can all see how "impressive" Nightmare is. roll eyes (sarcastic)


It has never been retconned away. Post scans stating this, otherwise............silence.

So all you have is Gorath harassing a dying geriatric and enslaving the jobber clown of comics. Nice.

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop

That very Strange fought against the LT and held his own, FAIL on your part. laughing

Fact is, Strange even with the AO's power never beat Zom. How many times has he humiliated Gorath? I lost count.

Kaluu is a joke. Post feats and fights for him please. Otherwise, silence.


Yeah, impressive.....not. Post the Nightmare/Strange fight so we can all see how "impressive" Nightmare is. roll eyes (sarcastic)


It has never been retconned away. Post scans stating this, otherwise............silence.

So all you have is Gorath harassing a dying geriatric and enslaving the jobber clown of comics. Nice.

Even mentioning the Living Tribunal is fail on your part since Strange never fought him nor was LT ever trying to kill Strange.

Fact is Strange with Ancient One's power was weaker than he was when he went into Arioch's realm, and that weaker version of Strange was running circles around Zom, who was getting frustrated because he couldn't catch him in a game of tag. Even a severely weakened Shuma-Gorath kicked the sh!t out of Strange just in Strange's attempt to use Stonehenge to banish him. Even in their first encounter Shuma was toying with Strange and making him his b!tch until Strange had to resort to killing the Ancient One just to BFR Shuma. Hell, at least Shuma was able to catch Strange, unlike Zom until Strange stopped for him laughing

But hey, since we're introducing PIS into the picture, I may as well just say that Shuma could turn the environment they are fighting in into an icy ocean to turn the environment cold. See, because Dormammu's faltine flames will be put out since he's weak in environments that aren't suitable for them and Shuma's shaped like an octopus, he'd have a complete advantage by not having vertigo to worry about either. I mean Dormammu's faltine flames were put out when Mephisto's hell froze over in Hellcat so Shuma could do the same thing. That would surely counter the 'vertigo weakness' of Shuma that's just so obviously inhibiting that Strange would have thought of it rather than resorting to merging with chaos lords and corrupting himself with black magic and even before that killing his beloved mentor to stop him. Darn, if only anyone before or after knew a magic spell for vertigo inducement. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Anyway Zop, it's pretty clear that you have a hatred of all things tentacled. Did you have a bad experience with a hentai movie once or something? Whenever Shuma's brought up you get all perturbed and testy.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
Even mentioning the Living Tribunal is fail on your part since Strange never fought him nor was LT ever trying to kill Strange.
He was resisting the LT's efforts to contain him, breaking a spell the LT cast! He was MORE powerful than when he faced off against Gorath lacking ALL of his artifacts.

This was even stated on panel that the spells he cast banishing various entities were weakened when his artifacts were destroyed!


You keep saying he was weaker at the time he had AO's power but you have yet to prove it.

Strange with AO's power broke out of the LTs spell. Strange without his artifacts ONWED Arioch then killed Gorath! LOL FAIL.

Zom had Strange dead to rights till he stopped his assault because he feared the LT's arrival. It's all right there on panel my deluded friend.

That "severly" weakened Gorath fought a non SS Strange no? Hell Diablo was gonna face off against him!laughing


Low showings are normal and it doesn't detract from Dormammu's power at all. The fact that MULTIPLE GODS and Hell Lords had to combine their power to accomplish that feat also speaks volumes. But don't let facts get in the way of your desperately trying to drag Dormammu down to Gorath's pathetic level.


I "hate" him because of all the crap on these forums associated with him. He's among the LEAST impressive demons in the MU with almost nothing in the way of fights or feats to back up his over-hyped levels of power.

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
He was resisting the LT's efforts to contain him, breaking a spell the LT cast! He was MORE powerful than when he faced off against Gorath lacking ALL of his artifacts.

LT was testing Strange the whole time to see if Earth was actually worthy enough for him not to destroy it. And after Strange broke out of that Rings of Raggador enchantment LT just cast it again and Strange was immediately helpless. Why try and make out like Strange was actually close to contending with the Living Tribunal? He even says on panel that LT could simply nod his head and destroy the globe.

And no, he was not even close to being more powerful than he was when he faced off against Shuma-Gorath. He was absolutely weaker.



Strange made up for his inability to use White Magic against Shuma-Gorath by corrupting himself with black magic along with other boosts. In total:

1) Learned to wield various black magic arts from Kaluu
2) Obtained the Wings of Needless Sorrow which enabled him to absorb magic from others
3) Absorbed all the magical potential of Victoria Bentley (her potential was higher than Baron Mordo's, Strange's rival)
4) Obtained Eldrich energy from the chaos lord Ghaszaszh Nyirh after their battle
5) Merged with the chaos lord Arioch

The fact that Kaluu was taking on Strange and the Ancient One at the same time beforehand and was always AO's peer in mystic power, yet couldn't even make it to Arioch's realm without being slowly killed by the energy in the realm before it, already shows that Strange had succeeded his previous power by a good deal since he wasn't at all affected by the realm's mystic energy as Kaluu was.



Yes, let's all ignore the plot and act like the situations were even close to similar.



Zom couldn't even catch Strange until he pulled off Zom's forelock and willingly stopped right in front of him, falsely believing that pulling off the forelock was all that was required for Zom's defeat. Before that he was flying circles around him and made Zom have a hissy fit.



Kay.



And yet you keep bringing up Shuma's showing when he was summoned by Nicholas Scratch as if that's the limit to Shuma's power. I smell bias.



None of the Vishanti were able to defeat Shuma, and that was before their retcon. Not like Shuma hasn't contended with others before. It was even said that in defeating Shuma-Gorath, Strange had done what Agamotto himself could not. You're just trying to elevate Dormammu's normal power to Gorath's far superior power. Sure Dormy's been superior to Shuma-Gorath at times through plot device, but this battle is Dormammu's standard power vs Shuma's, and Shuma wins when both are confined to their own personal powers and not extended to include some plot device.



Iyo.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
LT was testing Strange the whole time to see if Earth was actually worthy enough for him not to destroy it. And after Strange broke out of that Rings of Raggador enchantment LT just cast it again and Strange was immediately helpless. Why try and make out like Strange was actually close to contending with the Living Tribunal? He even says on panel that LT could simply nod his head and destroy the globe.

And no, he was not even close to being more powerful than he was when he faced off against Shuma-Gorath. He was absolutely weaker.
Strange with AO's power impressed the LT and the LT himself said so.

Strange sans ALL of his artifacts annihilated Gorath and his minions. Dance around this fact all you want Cort, it's not going away.




Yeah and? None of those no named beings you mentioned mean anything. We have no feats or fights to gauge their power by! The fact that Strange wtfpwned Arioch in like 8 panels says all we need to know about Arioch's power level. And it's not good.



Pulling out his forlock was the only way to beat him, since it would unleash evil energy and summon the LT. That was what the AO told Strange before merging with the stone pillar.

Strange with AO's power did nothing to Zom. Zom, on the other hand, had Strange dead to rights until the LT arrived.

Strange has humiliated Gorath on at least 2 occasions. laughing


When did the Vishanti even fight Gorath?! And I'm not talking about ONE sentence. What were the circumstances of the fight.

You are basing your whole argument off ONE SENTENCE with no context behind it.

And as we've seen, Strange DIDN'T kill Gorath, because Gorath was going to be reborn through Strange. If Strange really did kill Gorath, we wouldn't have any subsequent appearances by him no? Some feat.

Marvel_Mystic
Cort's trolling hard today.

Dormammu wins because he actually fights people and doesn't sit his ass in his dimension all day like Shuma.

ThereIsHope
Didnt Shuma beat celestials? Also Strange beats Dormmamu every other day of the week. Yet he had to go all out to defeat Shuma Gorath.

Marvel_Mystic
Originally posted by ThereIsHope
Didnt Shuma beat celestials? Also Strange beats Dormmamu every other day of the week. Yet he had to go all out to defeat Shuma Gorath.

No. Perhaps according to Thanos Imperative Shuma should be one of the highest Many Angled Ones IF the four that Lord MarVell called during his ritual were indeed the most powerful. But even if that was the case I don't see how anything the Galactus Engine did against Celestials should have anything to do with Shuma even if Shuma did help empower it, and we dont even no that for sure.

zopzop
Originally posted by ThereIsHope
Didnt Shuma beat celestials? Also Strange beats Dormmamu every other day of the week. Yet he had to go all out to defeat Shuma Gorath.
He did no such thing. He's never faced off against another God or Cosmic on panel that I'm aware of.

Strange fought Gorath 3 times that I can recall :
A) First time, he wasn't Sorcerer Supreme and he pwned all of Gorath's servants and was later forced to kill a dying AO to banish Gorath. It was AFTER the AO's death that Strange became SS and the AO gave his powers to Strange.
B) Second time they fought, Strange had destroyed (or thought he destroyed ALL his artifacts) this weakened the spells he cast keeping various demons out and allowed them to gain access to 616 reality. Even without his artifacts, he managed to humiliated servant after servant of Gorath, before finally humiliating Gorath himself.
C) Last time they fought, a non SS Strange beat Gorath by teleporting him, against his will I may add, to Stonehenge.

Gorath is phuckin' fail compared to Dormammu.

Dormammu has gone up against the likes of Eternity, Odin, Gaea, a cabal of Hell Lords that included Mephisto, and others I'm not recalling right now.

sCOURGE_0
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Cort's trolling hard today.

Dormammu wins because he actually fights people and doesn't sit his ass in his dimension all day like Shuma. Agreed on both

Sundipped
Dormy sends Umar to do the job. Shuma is not worth his time. Oh, and Shuma sucks in case anyone forgot to mention it already.

Mr Master
Good debate friends.

But this part of it has no argument.
Originally posted by zopzop

Strange fought against the LT and held his own
Blasphemy!
Originally posted by CortSether

LT was testing Strange the whole time to see if Earth was
actually worthy enough for him not to destroy it. And after Strange
broke out of that Rings of Raggador enchantment LT just cast it
again and Strange was immediately helpless.

He even says on panel that LT could simply nod his head and destroy the globe.
thumb up

Sundipped
Originally posted by Mr Master
Blasphemy!


Yeah Zop went all out with that one. smile
LT had just one shot Zom whom Doc was having trouble with. There's no way Doc can hang with LT, even if one we're to take that fight seriously.

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
Strange with AO's power impressed the LT and the LT himself said so.

Strange sans ALL of his artifacts annihilated Gorath and his minions. Dance around this fact all you want Cort, it's not going away.

You're dancing around the fact that Strange already had imbued himself with enough black magic power that even if he did have those artifacts that were transported to Agamotto's realm after the fight with Urthona they wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference since he was already more powerful than he had ever been.



It really just shows more about Strange's power and abilities. Notice that when Arioch states he has 'infinite power', Strange agrees that he cannot possibly stand up to it, so he resorts to fusing with him. Considering a peer of the Ancient One couldn't even make it to Arioch's realm without going comatose yet an Ancient One empowered Strange was hanging with Zom years earlier, I'd say it's at least clear that Arioch is superior to the Zom that was seen struggling to catch the agile Doc Strange. stick out tongue



A young and inexperienced Doc Strange who wasn't even Sorcerer Supreme was holding his own against Zom after AO gave him his power. Why is that such a big deal to you? Good lord, Kaluu himself could have done similarly based on the showing of that encounter. Zom's not impressive in the least bit.



You exaggerate things. Strange getting manhandled and toyed with and having to resort to killing his mentor to BFR Shuma back to his dimension isn't exactly a humiliation for Shuma. Shuma would have killed Strange instantly had he not played with him. Then again, Dormammu's arrogance gets the best of him on multiple occasions and causes his defeats. And I really think you're reaching when you keep bringing up Shuma's appearance on Earth when he was starved "weak and hungry after long slumber". Sure Shuma-Gorath was fairly beaten when Strange fought him in his realm but to act like Strange merged with gods and boosted to levels far beyond his normal scope = Strange as normal or even SS is outright silly.




It's stated by Agamotto that they fought Shuma-Gorath before. Hoggoth backs him up by saying that they recall Shuma-Gorath well. And later Kaluu tells Strange that not even Agamotto had destroyed a lord of chaos. You can cry for context all you want, but it's clear that Shuma-Gorath is in the Vishanti's league otherwise the Vishanti wouldn't have said that they fought with him and Kaluu wouldn't have made such a big deal about Agamotto not even doing such a thing.

I typed this to you in a previous thread concerning S-G, but I'll type it again. When one reads a comic or watches a cartoon that uses its characters to relay ground rules to the reader/viewer, the simplest interpretations are the ones that really matter. In the case of Shuma-Gorath fighting the Vishanti, we can ask ourselves if the Vishanti really fought Shuma literally, or we can throw into the equation random what-ifs coming from our imaginations. Or, we could go ahead and apply the razor and say: "The Vishanti said that they fought Shuma-Gorath, both are still around, none was said to have defeated the other on panel or in bios, etc, Kaluu made a big deal about Strange being able to do what not even Agamotto could do." These are all conclusions that don't require second-guessing to reach. If we're willing to take such a counter-productive stance for perfectly decisive statements, we may as well be questioning every other seemingly direct indicator in Marvel with an axe to grind. Clearly Shuma's within the Vishanti's league.



Strange prevented Shuma-Gorath from slaughtering Earth's populace as he did in prehistoric times by defeating him. That's what his goal was. Shattering Shuma's shell is no easy task. It's a great feat for Strange.

Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Cort's trolling hard today.

Dormammu wins because he actually fights people and doesn't sit his ass in his dimension all day like Shuma.

Trolling...me? It's not my fault that zop gets emotional whenever Shuma's name is mentioned on KMC.

And Dormammu is far more persistent than Shuma in attacking 616, sure. But being arrogant and more willing to get your ass kicked by higher powers doesn't impress me.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
You're dancing around the fact that Strange already had imbued himself with enough black magic power that even if he did have those artifacts that were transported to Agamotto's realm after the fight with Urthona they wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference since he was already more powerful than he had ever been.



It really just shows more about Strange's power and abilities. Notice that when Arioch states he has 'infinite power', Strange agrees that he cannot possibly stand up to it, so he resorts to fusing with him. Considering a peer of the Ancient One couldn't even make it to Arioch's realm without going comatose yet an Ancient One empowered Strange was hanging with Zom years earlier, I'd say it's at least clear that Arioch is superior to the Zom that was seen struggling to catch the agile Doc Strange. stick out tongue



A young and inexperienced Doc Strange who wasn't even Sorcerer Supreme was holding his own against Zom after AO gave him his power. Why is that such a big deal to you? Good lord, Kaluu himself could have done similarly based on the showing of that encounter. Zom's not impressive in the least bit.



You exaggerate things. Strange getting manhandled and toyed with and having to resort to killing his mentor to BFR Shuma back to his dimension isn't exactly a humiliation for Shuma. Shuma would have killed Strange instantly had he not played with him. Then again, Dormammu's arrogance gets the best of him on multiple occasions and causes his defeats. And I really think you're reaching when you keep bringing up Shuma's appearance on Earth when he was starved "weak and hungry after long slumber". Sure Shuma-Gorath was fairly beaten when Strange fought him in his realm but to act like Strange merged with gods and boosted to levels far beyond his normal scope = Strange as normal or even SS is outright silly.




It's stated by Agamotto that they fought Shuma-Gorath before. Hoggoth backs him up by saying that they recall Shuma-Gorath well. And later Kaluu tells Strange that not even Agamotto had destroyed a lord of chaos. You can cry for context all you want, but it's clear that Shuma-Gorath is in the Vishanti's league otherwise the Vishanti wouldn't have said that they fought with him and Kaluu wouldn't have made such a big deal about Agamotto not even doing such a thing.

I typed this to you in a previous thread concerning S-G, but I'll type it again. When one reads a comic or watches a cartoon that uses its characters to relay ground rules to the reader/viewer, the simplest interpretations are the ones that really matter. In the case of Shuma-Gorath fighting the Vishanti, we can ask ourselves if the Vishanti really fought Shuma literally, or we can throw into the equation random what-ifs coming from our imaginations. Or, we could go ahead and apply the razor and say: "The Vishanti said that they fought Shuma-Gorath, both are still around, none was said to have defeated the other on panel or in bios, etc, Kaluu made a big deal about Strange being able to do what not even Agamotto could do." These are all conclusions that don't require second-guessing to reach. If we're willing to take such a counter-productive stance for perfectly decisive statements, we may as well be questioning every other seemingly direct indicator in Marvel with an axe to grind. Clearly Shuma's within the Vishanti's league.



Strange prevented Shuma-Gorath from slaughtering Earth's populace as he did in prehistoric times by defeating him. That's what his goal was. Shattering Shuma's shell is no easy task. It's a great feat for Strange.



Trolling...me? It's not my fault that zop gets emotional whenever Shuma's name is mentioned on KMC.

And Dormammu is far more persistent than Shuma in attacking 616, sure. But being arrogant and more willing to get your ass kicked by higher powers doesn't impress me.
Yawn....

I could post scans saying how the Vishanti don't give two sh|ts about Gorath and Gorath himself said so to Dr. Strange (hint look up Marvel Premiere 6, 9, and 10). So you basing your entire argument off ONE SENTENCE with nothing on panel to back it up is laughable and pathetic.

But then again, Gorath is laughable and pathetic so it sort of fits.

Dr. Strange has handed Gorath his ass fight after fight after fight. On panel Gorath has ZERO fights against other demons or cosmics Dormammu or even Mephisto's level.

You base your entire arguments on one sentence and hyperbole. FAIL.

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
Yawn....

I could post scans saying how the Vishanti don't give two sh|ts about Gorath and Gorath himself said so to Dr. Strange (hint look up Marvel Premiere 6, 9, and 10). So you basing your entire argument off ONE SENTENCE with nothing on panel to back it up is laughable and pathetic.

But then again, Gorath is laughable and pathetic so it sort of fits.

Dr. Strange has handed Gorath his ass fight after fight after fight. On panel Gorath has ZERO fights against other demons or cosmics Dormammu or even Mephisto's level.

You base your entire arguments on one sentence and hyperbole. FAIL.

You're relying way too much on that scan where the Vishanti said they are no longer concerned with the fate of Earth. The same issue the Vishanti said they couldn't help Doctor Strange in any way otherwise they would upset the cosmic balance and open the door to chaos - this was stated on panel by Agamotto.

And I can see you're getting mad so...

Celebration dance!
http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac186/Sise-Neg/Gifs/http-__makeagif_com_media_8-03-2011_vYhHIy1.gif



And anyway I don't know why the hell we're arguing about this since according to Marvel illustrations in the Fear Itself arc both Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath (as well as Set, Chthon, and Cyttorak) are weaklings concerned about the awesome power of the Serpent, so Marvel thinks they both suck.

Marvel_Mystic
Originally posted by CortSether
Trolling...me? It's not my fault that zop gets emotional whenever Shuma's name is mentioned on KMC.

Like it's not his fault that you get overly defensive of a character that hasn't done anything.



As far as I remember they say that they just didn't care about Shuma and Shuma later tells Strange that the Vishanti no longer concern themselves with him. Where was it ever stated by the Vishanti that they wouldn't help him for fear of disrupting the cosmic balance?




I think everyone agrees that Fear Itself sucked hard.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
You're relying way too much on that scan where the Vishanti said they are no longer concerned with the fate of Earth. The same issue the Vishanti said they couldn't help Doctor Strange in any way otherwise they would upset the cosmic balance and open the door to chaos - this was stated on panel by Agamotto.

And I can see you're getting mad so...

Celebration dance!
http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac186/Sise-Neg/Gifs/http-__makeagif_com_media_8-03-2011_vYhHIy1.gif



And anyway I don't know why the hell we're arguing about this since according to Marvel illustrations in the Fear Itself arc both Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath (as well as Set, Chthon, and Cyttorak) are weaklings concerned about the awesome power of the Serpent, so Marvel thinks they both suck.
No one is getting mad. You don't anger me believe it or not. The point is Gorath is a character solely based on hyperbole.

Oh and another thing, you got proof that the snake demon was Set? Because there are A LOT of demons in Marvel that assume Serpent form. His two children, Damballah, etc.

The serpent demon in the pic had one head, Set's most recognizable feature are his SEVEN HEADS.

CortSether
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Like it's not his fault that you get overly defensive of a character that hasn't done anything.

roll eyes (sarcastic)




http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti.jpg

Agamotto: "It is Stephen Strange - - Disciple of our revered servant, the Ancient One! Still, we must deny his request for aid - - lest we upset the cosmic balance - - and open the door to chaos!"

Agamotto says this when they show up after Strange requests the Vishanti's help against Sligguth (the Ancient One's power that was assisting him had faded during the battle and he needed help to defeat Shuma's servant). The Vishanti were not concerning themselves with Shuma-Gorath because of the consequences of upsetting the cosmic balance. It's not that they thought 'oh Shuma's a nobody so we're just gonna ignore him' like zop wants you to believe.



It was dumb...like most of Marvel these days.

Originally posted by zopzop
Oh and another thing, you got proof that the snake demon was Set? Because there are A LOT of demons in Marvel that assume Serpent form. His two children, Damballah, etc.

The serpent demon in the pic had one head, Set's most recognizable feature are his SEVEN HEADS.

Whether it was really Set or not, it doesn't dismiss that the illustrator was including characters in the Devil's Advocacy that really had no place being there. Many forum goers believe it's Set, though. It doesn't matter to me if it was Set or not either way.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
It was dumb...like most of Marvel these days.
+1 thumb up



Agreed, that sh|t pissed me off big time. Cytorrak, Chthon, Shuma Gorath, Dormammu, Mephisto, and crew fearing the Serpent? GTFO of here with that garbage Marvel.

Marvel_Mystic
Originally posted by CortSether
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti.jpg

Agamotto: "It is Stephen Strange - - Disciple of our revered servant, the Ancient One! Still, we must deny his request for aid - - lest we upset the cosmic balance - - and open the door to chaos!"

Okay. Fair enough. But can someone explain what the hell "cosmic balance" even means? I understand LT maintains cosmic balance but what exactly does that entail? And why would gods fighting other gods disrupt this 'cosmic balance'? Zom being present on Earth somehow disrupted cosmic balance too. I always figured cosmic balance was something that only concerned cosmic type characters but it seems like obscure magic characters also have a lot to do with maintaining cosmic balance...

the Darkone
Originally posted by CortSether
You're relying way too much on that scan where the Vishanti said they are no longer concerned with the fate of Earth. The same issue the Vishanti said they couldn't help Doctor Strange in any way otherwise they would upset the cosmic balance and open the door to chaos - this was stated on panel by Agamotto.

And I can see you're getting mad so...

Celebration dance!
http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac186/Sise-Neg/Gifs/http-__makeagif_com_media_8-03-2011_vYhHIy1.gif



And anyway I don't know why the hell we're arguing about this since according to Marvel illustrations in the Fear Itself arc both Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath (as well as Set, Chthon, and Cyttorak) are weaklings concerned about the awesome power of the Serpent, so Marvel thinks they both suck.

That's Pak BS writing, that crap doesn't make any sense. Like he did to Gaea origin, phucked it up!!

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by zopzop
He did no such thing. He's never faced off against another God or Cosmic on panel that I'm aware of.

Strange fought Gorath 3 times that I can recall :
A) First time, he wasn't Sorcerer Supreme and he pwned all of Gorath's servants and was later forced to kill a dying AO to banish Gorath. It was AFTER the AO's death that Strange became SS and the AO gave his powers to Strange.
B) Second time they fought, Strange had destroyed (or thought he destroyed ALL his artifacts) this weakened the spells he cast keeping various demons out and allowed them to gain access to 616 reality. Even without his artifacts, he managed to humiliated servant after servant of Gorath, before finally humiliating Gorath himself.
C) Last time they fought, a non SS Strange beat Gorath by teleporting him, against his will I may add, to Stonehenge.

Gorath is phuckin' fail compared to Dormammu.

Dormammu has gone up against the likes of Eternity, Odin, Gaea, a cabal of Hell Lords that included Mephisto, and others I'm not recalling right now. Gorath has fought Death kind of

We don't talk about the ending though...

CortSether
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
We don't talk about the ending though...

I enjoyed Thanos Imperative save for the ending. Not at all how I expected the finale to go down, and I mean that in a very bad way.



Yup. At least we can agree on that.

ODG
Originally posted by the Darkone
That's Pak BS writing, that crap doesn't make any sense. Like he did to Gaea origin, phucked it up!! That was Gillen. Pak had nothing to do with Fear Itself.

the Darkone
Originally posted by ODG
That was Gillen. Pak had nothing to do with Fear Itself. Him too a degree because that crap doesn't make any sense. Pak, Fraction suck when it comes down to Continuity period, the crap they pulled is some BS.

Golgo13
Originally posted by the Darkone
Him too a degree because that crap doesn't make any sense. Pak, Fraction suck when it comes down to Continuity period, the crap they pulled is some BS.

What crap?

Marvel_Mystic
I always thought otherwise but it looks like the latest issue of Doctor Strange (2015) makes it clear that Dormammu is Shuma-Gorath's inferior. It might even hint at Shuma-Gorath being the most powerful mystic entity with the way the Empirikul wanted him above all other magic users. What do you guys think? I do think it's cool that Dormammu and S-G have finally met in the comics and it's not just relegated to Marvel vs Capcom 3 interaction.

http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/32704220_12.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/32704221_16.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/32704223_17.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/32704224_18.jpg

deathslash
Well, that settles that debate I suppose.

zopzop
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
I always thought otherwise but it looks like the latest issue of Doctor Strange (2015) makes it clear that Dormammu is Shuma-Gorath's inferior. It might even hint at Shuma-Gorath being the most powerful mystic entity with the way the Empirikul wanted him above all other magic users. What do you guys think? I do think it's cool that Dormammu and S-G have finally met in the comics and it's not just relegated to Marvel vs Capcom 3 interaction.

http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/32704220_12.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/32704221_16.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/32704223_17.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/32704224_18.jpg
Holy Sh|T. eek!

This came out in 2015 and we're just now seeing it? Someone page Cort stat!

Marvel_Mystic
Originally posted by zopzop
Holy Sh|T. eek!

This came out in 2015 and we're just now seeing it? Someone page Cort stat!

The first issue came out in 2015 but this is from #16 which just released yesterday. They sure take their time with this series lol

Marvel_Mystic
So according to the Damnation story by Cates, Mephisto is now superior to both Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath as he beat them in a an all out war and locked the other two in a necrotic subrealm along with Nightmare, shown in Doctor Strange #389 which came out yesterday. Power levels and lore consistency be damned lol. Cates also says Dormammu is a hell lord like Mephisto. Idiots writing for Marvel these days haha

Baziemarc123
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
So according to the Damnation story by Cates, Mephisto is now superior to both Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath as he beat them in a an all out war and locked the other two in a necrotic subrealm along with Nightmare, shown in Doctor Strange #389 which came out yesterday. Power levels and lore consistency be damned lol. Cates also says Dormammu is a hell lord like Mephisto. Idiots writing for Marvel these days haha

Not sure if they're more powerful than Cyttorak though

deathslash
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
So according to the Damnation story by Cates, Mephisto is now superior to both Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath as he beat them in a an all out war and locked the other two in a necrotic subrealm along with Nightmare, shown in Doctor Strange #389 which came out yesterday. Power levels and lore consistency be damned lol. Cates also says Dormammu is a hell lord like Mephisto. Idiots writing for Marvel these days haha in case you didn't know, the current cosmic structure in marvel is in flux. Ever since Galactus became the lifegiver, abstract level characters have been vying for different positions of power.

Marvel_Mystic
Originally posted by deathslash
in case you didn't know, the current cosmic structure in marvel is in flux. Ever since Galactus became the lifegiver, abstract level characters have been vying for different positions of power.

why is that affecting non-cosmic entitites though?

One Big Mob
Marvel is in a current state of ass flux and writers have been vying for the position of who's the worst

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Cates also says Dormammu is a hell lord like Mephisto.

Well, he's often been classified as such.

Marvel_Mystic
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Well, he's often been classified as such.

would be nice if marvel editors at least demanded some consistency in the classificstion of their gods and cosmics though. shuma isnt an elder god but they have been calling him one a lot lately, and calling a fear lord like nightmare a hell lord and putting him and mephisto on the same level as shuma and dormammu is nuts, though i guess it isnt as bad as lord chaos and master order being able to kill the living tribunal. really messes with forum battles though because how do we know whats an actual power representation or just an outlier?

StiltmanFTW
Marvel editors are slackers, especially in the latest decade+...

basilisk
Originally posted by deathslash
in case you didn't know, the current cosmic structure in marvel is in flux. Ever since Galactus became the lifegiver, abstract level characters have been vying for different positions of power. Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
why is that affecting non-cosmic entitites though?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Marvel is in a current state of ass flux and writers have been vying for the position of who's the worst lol, so true.

gauntlet o doom
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
It might even hint at Shuma-Gorath being the most powerful mystic entity with the way the Empirikul wanted him above all other magic users.


Where does that place Zom?

Marvel_Mystic
Originally posted by gauntlet o doom
Where does that place Zom?

No idea. At this point I'm not even gonna try speculating how strong mystic entities are in comparison to each other since writers are so inconsistent.

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