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These two duos have both faced down Sidious with similarish results. Which duo comes out on top?

Well team 1 beat Sidious. Team 2 lost to Sidious. Not that Kit was any help to team 1.

However I believe the brothers probably can take Mace together. But not sure how much of a difference Fisto would make.

I'm going with team 2. I think Maul can hold his own against Mace long enough for Opress to destroy Fisto and help Maul.

I see it as the other way around- Fisto is no slouch, and Maul is definitely weaker than Mace. So Fisto can hold off Savage until Mace beats Maul down.


Also, once a foe gets used to Opress's power, he tends to get outdueled.

I don't see Fisto lasting long here at all... However, Mace could likely solo so team 1 for the win.

The only way I see Savage winning against Fisto is through superior strength or raw force power. Fisto has better skill and technique with a saber, so I think that if he can handle Savage's physical strength and close the distance, then he can take it.

Fisto could hold his own against Grievous. He's not to be unerestimated on this duel.

Mace, on the other hand, easily defeats both of them. He could probably solo this. Add Fisto to the picture, and this duel is won by team 1.

Mace is much more powerful than either and Kit should be able to hold his own against either for long enough.

Dave Filoni has confirmed that Opress performed better against Sidious than Tiin+Kolar+Fisto. So Fisto on his own isn't lasting long against him. One Force wave followed by pounding on him with his tremendous strength and Fisto is gone.

Could Mace defeat both brothers on his own? Dunno. Should be a good fight at least. But Maul alone should be able to hold his own in Sabers for a time. He did against Sidious so I don't see why he couldn't against Mace.

Fisto was able to go toe-to-toe with Grievous and he has the strength to punt people across the room and dent starship hulls.

Fisto was able to go toe-to-toe with Grievous and he has the strength to punt people across the room and dent starship hulls. Opress will need more than just strength here imo.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dave Filoni has confirmed that Opress performed better against Sidious than Tiin+Kolar+Fisto. So Fisto on his own isn't lasting long against him. One Force wave followed by pounding on him with his tremendous strength and Fisto is gone.

Well, yea, but Kolar and Tiin were caught with their guards down. Only Fisto was able to raise his sword and block... and when it was Opress vs Sidious 1 on 1 Opress wasn't able to do the slightest thing, Sidious was able to pretty casually get around his defenses.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, yea, but Kolar and Tiin were caught with their guards down. Only Fisto was able to raise his sword and block... and when it was Opress vs Sidious 1 on 1 Opress wasn't able to do the slightest thing, Sidious was able to pretty casually get around his defenses.

True. Fisto with his greater skill might take some time for Opress to destroy.

Really depends how long Maul lasts against Mace. I feel Maul can hold his own in Sabers from his performance against Sidious.

Mace Windu.
Savage defeats Kit Fisto easily.
Mace vs Maul would be just like Sidious vs the Sith brothers,
except with no Force lightning.

Savage dies and Maul asking Mace what are you?

Also, let us not treat it as two separate 1v1s.

It'd be two pairs, meaning that if Fisto got in trouble, Windu would defend him, and thus keep him around as an aid and distraction.

Maul'd try to do the same if Opress got in trouble, but Windu could do it without leaving much of an opening, while I don't think Maul could say the same.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, yea, but Kolar and Tiin were caught with their guards down.

Never really understood why people say this. The two of them were confronting a Sith Lord with his saber already drawn... What did they expect to happen?

Kolar and Tiin wasn't the best choice in my opinion.
Whether they were on guard or not Sidious still would have killed them.
As for Kit either way if you switch Maul vs Kit and Mace vs Savage

Either way Kit dies and Mace is left alone to fight both brothers.
Just like in ROTS. So Kit really doesn't make a difference.

Kit lasts awhile, though (really long if Mace protects him). He's not going to go down quickly like he did against Sids.

Originally posted by ares834
Never really understood why people say this. The two of them were confronting a Sith Lord with his saber already drawn... What did they expect to happen?


They knew he was bad. They did *not* know he was that powerful, that fast, or that he'd attack in such an aggressive manner.


Heck, they likely expected he'd surrender or that Mace'd do all the work.

Also I will note the Novel version had Sidious attack when Tiin was trying to use telepathy, so more explicitly catching him off guard by using his own ability against him.

Originally posted by Q99
Only Fisto was able to raise his sword and block... and when it was Opress vs Sidious 1 on 1 Opress wasn't able to do the slightest thing, Sidious was able to pretty casually get around his defenses.
Opress did manage to duel Sidious for a short duration in 1 on 1 scenario unlike Fisto.

ok I'll buy that..lol
Kit is good but not against Sith Lords.
If he was as good as Lucien Draay with his Mastery of Shii Cho then I'll give him credit.
To me Kit just wasn't sure of himself.
I think Sidious sensed that doubt in Fisto.

Tiin had no idea,telepathy ?
Yoda couldn't read his mind or sense him.
And Koth,no comment.

Asajj Ventress also outgunned Kit Fisto in single combat.

Exactly. He tried to read his mind and got a saber due to being distracted.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Opress did manage to duel Sidious for a short duration in 1 on 1 scenario unlike Fisto.

During which, Sidious started out with no sabers active, and finished by double-stabbing him without looking.

And Fisto doesn't have to be Opress's equal to hang with him for some time.



---

I will mention that the CW cartoon in general tends to longer duels than other sources.

Savage...it's sad,really ..I saw a good potential in him,
if he was properly trained.
he tried his best to defeat Sidious.
he admitted that he was nothing like his brother and failed as his apprentice.

Who is next to die Ahsoka Tanno ?
What happened to the dark saber?
Does Sidious keep it and add it to his collection or discards it?

Originally posted by Q99
During which, Sidious started out with no sabers active, and finished by double-stabbing him without looking.
I know but Opress performed better then Fisto.

Originally posted by Q99
And Fisto doesn't have to be Opress's equal to hang with him for some time.
I don't expect Opress to blitz Fisto but the former is relatively superior combatant.

Originally posted by Q99


During which, Sidious started out with no sabers active, and finished by double-stabbing him without looking.

Your missing the fact that there clearly was a clash of Sabers and Sidious obviously was out for blood seen as he killed him.

And that was the one on one. Let's not forget the whole fight up until then where Opress was fighting Sidious alongside Maul and even got past Sidious's defenses at one point.

Compare that to Fisto's attempt who was fighting alongside a more powerful ally-Mace Windu.


Originally posted by Q99
And Fisto doesn't have to be Opress's equal to hang with him for some time.

That's true. Although I'd call it more surviving than hanging in this case. And a Force Wave from Opress should put him down.





Originally posted by Q99
I will mention that the CW cartoon in general tends to longer duels than other sources.

Well Filoni did make the comparison. And there hasn't been a CW cartoon saber fight as long as Obi-Wan vs Anakin. Or even Maul vs Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

I 'll call it surviving,too. but I don't think Mace will let him die,
he would eventually help him or Savage or Maul would just take him
out the fight. to make it more interesting.

Originally posted by Q99
They knew he was bad. They did *not* know he was that powerful, that fast, or that he'd attack in such an aggressive manner.


Heck, they likely expected he'd surrender or that Mace'd do all the work.

Also I will note the Novel version had Sidious attack when Tiin was trying to use telepathy, so more explicitly catching him off guard by using his own ability against him.

They see him jump over the table with a lightsaber drawn. Unless they are idiots, there guards would definitely be up. Heck, Tiin even seems to be attempting to attack before he is struck down.

I remember seeing that!!!
good call...
too me they froze like a deer in head lights!!! lol.

Originally posted by ares834
They see him jump over the table with a lightsaber drawn. Unless they are idiots, there guards would definitely be up. Heck, Tiin even seems to be attempting to attack before he is struck down.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
I remember seeing that!!!
good call...
too me they froze like a deer in head lights!!! lol.

He was too fast for them.

He out-moved them. Duh.

Well, yeah. That's what I'm saying. He butchered them not because they weren't ready for him. But because he was simply to fast.

Considering that Windu was capable of standing against Sidious and disarming him, there's no doubt as to his ability. Aided by another noted duelist the Jedi should certainly walk away from this one the victors.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dave Filoni has confirmed that Opress performed better against Sidious than Tiin+Kolar+Fisto. So Fisto on his own isn't lasting long against him. One Force wave followed by pounding on him with his tremendous strength and Fisto is gone.


Could I get a link on that quote?

Mace in close-combat = Sidious - who beat Maul and Savage.

Mace can beat both Maul and Savage down by himself, with moderate difficulty.

With Fisto - this is overkill.

Of course Team 1 wins.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Could I get a link on that quote?

http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep516/#!/media/commentary

At about 1:29.

Filoni says, "He (Savage) puts up a better fight, you know, than the Jedi Council did; I'll say that much for him."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dave Filoni has confirmed that Opress performed better against Sidious than Tiin+Kolar+Fisto. So Fisto on his own isn't lasting long against him. One Force wave followed by pounding on him with his tremendous strength and Fisto is gone.

This is Fisto vs. Opress, not Fisto vs. Sidious. Facing Sidious is very, very different from facing Opress. Remember he could go one-on-one against Grievous. Fisto is no pushover; Opress would definitely not take him down easily.




Yes, he could most probably defeat both brothers. I doubt Maul could last very long against Mace, mainly thanks to his Vapaad and Shatterpoint. He defeated Sidious. I don't see why he couldn't defeat Maul with relative ease, seeing as Maul is no where near Sidious in terms of Force power nor saber skill.

Also this completely throws the Kit Fisto~Kenobi notion.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It was certainly not the result of "circumstance".

According to Filoni, it sure was.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If anything his earlier performances against Maul were a result of circumstance.

Hardly. Of the two previous fights with Maul on the show (one of which was literally five minutes before), Obi-Wan never displayed sufficient prowess to take them both on and win.

You're taking the exception and trying to pass it off as the rule.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Savage alone is stated to be>Kit Fisto.

No, Savage is stated to put up a better fight against Sidious than did Fisto.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kenobi outclasses Opress in sabers.

That may or may not be true. The burden is on you to prove Savage outclasses Kit in this regard.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also this completely throws the Kit Fisto~Kenobi notion.

I think Fisto and Kenobi used to be equal, but Kenobi has simply gotten better.

Savage vs Kenobi used to be closer.

It's really no different from Asajj taking on Anakin & Obi-Wan in "Nightsisters" while wounded and holding her own. Usually, when she fights them one-on-one, she's on the losing side.

Not to mention the fact that Maul clearly had no interest in killing Obi-Wan, which was implied in "Revival" (demanding Obi-Wan's surrender) and confirmed in "The Lawless."

Short of Filoni or someone outright telling me otherwise, I'm disinclined to allow a contorted view of a singular instance outweigh the outcomes of multiple ones.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's really no different from Asajj taking on Anakin & Obi-Wan in "Nightsisters" while wounded and holding her own. Usually, when she fights them one-on-one, she's on the losing side.
Jar'Kai is suited for fighting two people at once. Bullshit. The feats are not comparable. Kenobi and Skywalker were clearly not fighting their best.




Maul sure as hell wasn't holding back if that's what you are suggesting.



Filoni pretty much outright says that Kenobi>Maul bros.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Jar'Kai is suited for fighting two people at once.

Yeah, you know who else used Jar'Kai against two enemies he's normally unable to beat? Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Bullshit. The feats are not comparable.

They really are. Once your eyes dry, you'll be able to see that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kenobi and Skywalker were clearly not fighting their best.

Never said they were. Which is something else that fight has in common with the one in "Revival."

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Maul sure as hell wasn't holding back if that's what you are suggesting.

Nah, I'm outright telling you.

The difference being, my argument has evidence whereas yours just has hurt feelings.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Filoni pretty much outright says that Kenobi>Maul bros.

He pretty much doesn't, but don't let a little thing like facts get in your way.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, you know who else used Jar'Kai against two enemies he's normally unable to beat? Obi-Wan.
I am well aware.



Let me break down as to why that's B.S.

1. Kenobi and Skywalker engaging in 1 handed locks with Ventress when they could have overpowered her with full powered blows.
2. The two of them literally not being pressured at all during the fight.
3. The causality with which they push her away.
4. At no point did Ventress have the advantage.

In the Kenobi vs. Maul bros
1. Kenobi breaks Savage's legs and relieves him of one of his arms, effectively incapacitating him entirely.
2. The two of them are Sith, they fight bloodlusted and with intent to kill.
3. The intensity of that duel>>>>The Ventress thing
4. Kenobi was landing blows on both of them.


Prove it.

Dave Filoni flat out denies that that fight was a draw.




http://i.imgur.com/I6tC0.gif



Maul VA: I think it was a tie.
Filoni: No.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Could I get a link on that quote?

Featurette on The Lawless:

http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep516/#!/media/commentary

1:25-1:32

Edit- Just noticed Ares already posted it.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Mace in close-combat = Sidious - who beat Maul and Savage.

Mace can beat both Maul and Savage down by himself, with moderate difficulty.



This is excactly where A>B>C fails. I don't see Windu ragdolling both of them together with the Force. Just like Anakin didn't stomp Obi-Wan even though he beat Count Dooku who did. Because again Aankin couldn't ragdoll Obi-Wan with the force.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda



Filoni pretty much outright says that Kenobi>Maul bros.


I'm not sure about this. But he did confirm Kenobi defeated both brothers.

But either way the Fisto=Kenobi argument is completely moot now.

Even if we go solely by Kenobi's previous performance against Maul in the same episode, he was easily at least Maul's equal in Sabers. Which is of course well beyond Kit Fisto.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Let me break down as to why that's B.S.

1. Kenobi and Skywalker engaging in 1 handed locks with Ventress when they could have overpowered her with full powered blows.
2. The two of them literally not being pressured at all during the fight.
3. The causality with which they push her away.
4. At no point did Ventress have the advantage.

el-BInFI8H4

2:27, Obi-Wan is KO'd with a kick to the face; 2:36, Anakin is flattened with a Force push; 3:09, both are strangled by Ventress.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
In the Kenobi vs. Maul bros
1. Kenobi breaks Savage's legs and relieves him of one of his arms, effectively incapacitating him entirely.
2. The two of them are Sith, they fight bloodlusted and with intent to kill.
3. The intensity of that duel>>>>The Ventress thing
4. Kenobi was landing blows on both of them.

Irrelevant. Maul did not seek to kill Obi-Wan (confirmed, among other places, on the official website in Obi-Wan's profile) and demanded his surrender. When Maul got serious, he pimp smacked Obi-Wan with the Force and buried him alive.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove it.

Already did. Maul sought Obi-Wan's surrender and intended to torture and humiliate him, which requires him to be alive.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dave Filoni flat out denies that that fight was a draw.

I never claimed the fight was a draw. Address my argument and not the strawman you've constructed.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Maul VA: I think it was a tie.
Filoni: No.

Irrelevant. Obi-Wan didn't "tie" Anakin in ROTS, either. Doesn't change the fact that, according to George Lucas and a myriad of sources, Anakin was the superior warrior.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
el-BInFI8H4

2:27, Obi-Wan is KO'd with a kick to the face; 2:36, Anakin is flattened with a Force push; 3:09, both are strangled by Ventress.
KO'd, come on. You are exaggerating. Also she is flattened by force pushes way more than they are. Ventress is consistently on the retreat, and gets backed into a corner.
Also the force choke is irrelevant because by that point the two of them had Ventress' back against the wall and she was for all intents and purposes in their eyes defeated.



Maul got in one hit on Kenobi in the Force, then retreated. The retreating party is the defeated party by the rules of battle. And no that was not a tactical withdrawal either. That was your textbook retreat.



And Obi-Wan is a Jedi Master stated by Filoni to be in the height of clarity, he was hardly fighting with the intent to kill, only to disarm. Jedi only fight with intent to kill in extreem circumstances.(i.e. Yoda and Kenobi fighting to destroy the Sith in ROTS).



Then what the hell are you arguing?


Don't try and derail the topic of this discussion with that red herring. The Kenobi-Skywalker is a unique instance in the universe because Kenobi had intricate knowledge of Anakin's bladework prior to the fight.

facepalm

Unless Obi-Wan suffers from severe narcolepsy, I'm pretty sure she knocked him out.



I never denied any of this. You're far too preoccupied building an elaborate strawman to actually address my argument. You were the one who claimed Ventress "at no point" in the duel had an advantage. Either you were lying or mistaken, but either way you should probably dismount from Obi-Wan's nuts in order to better make your case.



Yes, because Anakin and Obi-Wan suffered spontaneous memory loss and forgot that unarmed Force users still have the Force.

Try harder.



facepalm

Yes because one typically retreats in terror and defeat from an enemy they've just ragdolled and buried alive. Savage's injuries and the betrayal of their pirate cohorts clearly didn't play a single role in their departure (even though the website says otherwise).



Nowhere did Filoni say that Obi-Wan was restraining himself or not fighting to kill, nor is that communicated by the website.

Another lie from you will be considered an automatic act of concession and submission on your part.



My advice would be, when your hysterics have calmed, to reread my argument slowly. Sound out the words you have trouble with and consult a dictionary if need be. It's all very simple and very plainly written.



haermm

The guy whose posts are more a house of cards than argument, constructed by open lies and misplaced aggression, dares to lecture me on a "red herring"?



The point, in case you missed it, is that a duel's winner is not necessarily the stronger combatant.

Just so there's no confusion on the issue, Maul didn't know his band of pirates had betrayed him until he already began his retreat. He gets outside and commands the pirates to come with him.

And From Maul's bio on the official site:

With Savage wounded, Maul retreated only to discover that his pirate forces were no longer under his command.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Unless Obi-Wan suffers from severe narcolepsy, I'm pretty sure she knocked him out.

He got right back up.
Here's the definition of Knock Out
"A full knockout is considered any legal strike or combination thereof that renders an opponent unable to continue fighting."
There is absolutely no proof Kenobi was unconscious.






There was no point where she had the advantage. Arguing that Ventress had the advantage when she was force choking them is like arguing Savage Oppress had the advantage against Dooku and Ventress. Which is a ridiculous notion.



Strawman, she was depleted, wounded, and pressed up against the wall.



Are you forgetting that Savage's injuries were inflicted by Kenobi.? Are you also forgetting those pirates even commented on this instance.
'They're running from Kenobi, how powerful can they be?'



He doesn't need to.
"Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.
Jedi respect all life, in any form."

Jedi are always fighting to capture unless otherwise stated. It's the point of being a Jedi.



I wasn't aware you were appointed moderator of the SWVF.



Cut the dramatic prose please.


What a vain attempt to save face.



Except you used a really bad example to prove that point. Kenobi had the distinct advantage of knowing all of Skywalkers strengths, weaknesses and moves having seen them hundreds of times.

Your argument is pretty weak.
You say that Kenobi~Maul in sabers because in their prior engagements they were equal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvGXSe8fvrs
17:57
"And he loses that fight, rather he's not in the right mindset...When you get to this episode, Obi-Wan is much more focused and ready. Not only that but when Adi-Gallia dies, he gains more focus and sort of has to right that wrong. He's a very skilled swordsman. He's not going to lose that fight in that situation."

"I think it's more of a tie..."

"Nah."

Kenobi is Maul's superior in raw sabers, mate. Savage is Fisto's superior as well given Filoni's statements.

False.

He's rendered unconscious at 2:27 and is still out of the fight ten seconds later (that's 2:37 if you can't count) when the battle cuts away to Dooku issuing orders to the commanding droid.



Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He got right back up.
Here's the definition of Knock Out
"A full knockout is considered any legal strike or combination thereof that renders an opponent unable to continue fighting."
There is absolutely no proof Kenobi was unconscious.



Obi-Wan was knocked out.

But the Ventress vs Anakin and Obi-Wan was completely different to Obi-Wan vs Maul and Opress.

Firstly Anakin and Obi-Wan won that duel with all their limbs in tact. Second they just were not willing to hurt her at all. They had her at their mercy a couple of times but did not seem willing to lay a scratch on her.

In the other fight Maul and Opress were clearly not so merciful and were confirmed by Filoni to be incapable of defeating Obi-Wan in that situation. And yes perhaps Maul didn't want Obi-Wan dead yet. But let's not pretend he'd cry if he had to kill him. Or that he wouldn't be willing to chop off a few limbs.

And going with consistent showings is all fine. As long as we don't forget Obi-Wan is significantly improving through the Clone Wars. And it's not like he lacks feats. Grievous, Ventress, Opress and Sith Anakin are all on his list of wins.

^ Not to mention just stalemating Maul in Sabers puts him well above Fisto anyway. And that's ignoring his besting of both brothers together.

Oh look it's Jessiah trying to lowball Kenobi again.

Oh look it's Jessiah being a ***** again. uhuh

Again? I wasn't aware he'd ever stopped being a *****.

http://gifsoup.com/view/64787/evil-dead-o.gif

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He got right back up.
Here's the definition of Knock Out
"A full knockout is considered any legal strike or combination thereof that renders an opponent unable to continue fighting."
There is absolutely no proof Kenobi was unconscious.


He was unconscious?

That he is able to recover from a knock out faster than a non-force user, doesn't mean that he was not unconscious.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Jedi are always fighting to capture unless otherwise stated. It's the point of being a Jedi.


A jedi will not hesitate to strike a fatal blow in the middle of a duel or if their life is in danger. Mace didn't hesitate on chopping Jango's head off, and Jango isn't even a force sensitive, nor was he any real threat to Mace. Yoda killed one of his bestfriends by deflecting a blaster back at him. However, it is against the jedi code to kill an unarmed and defenseless person, who is already at his/her mercy.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Savage is Fisto's superior as well given Filoni's statements.


Filoni said Savage put up a better fight. You can ignore the context of Sidious's fight with Savage if you want to, but then what would be the point in debating with you.

You can see Kenobi still face down on the floor later in the duel some time later. He was clearly knocked out.

http://gifsoup.com/view4/1154898/morpheus-is-pleased-o.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
You can see Kenobi still face down on the floor later in the duel some time later. He was clearly knocked out.

Narcolepsy is more common than you'd think.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


A jedi will not hesitate to strike a fatal blow in the middle of a duel or if their life is in danger. Mace didn't hesitate on chopping Jango's head off, and Jango isn't even a force sensitive, nor was he any real threat to Mace. Yoda killed one of his bestfriends by deflecting a blaster back at him. However, it is against the jedi code to kill an unarmed and defenseless person, who is already at his/her mercy.

Ah right.. So a peacekeeping Jedi wouldn't hesitate to strike a fatal blow, but Sidious would against Maul.. Yeah of course.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Filoni said Savage put up a better fight. You can ignore the context of Sidious's fight with Savage if you want to, but then what would be the point in debating with you.

The context was obviously comparable to Fisto's in Filoni's eyes.

Whats good you ****ing liberal ******* pro gay marriage liberal democratic ******* cuntlicker big black ****** gay lord faggets. Your all ****ing gay lords bwahhahahah ****ing GAY ****FACES GO GET RAPED BY SATAN.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He was unconscious?

That he is able to recover from a knock out faster than a non-force user, doesn't mean that he was not unconscious.






A jedi will not hesitate to strike a fatal blow in the middle of a duel or if their life is in danger. Mace didn't hesitate on chopping Jango's head off, and Jango isn't even a force sensitive, nor was he any real threat to Mace. Yoda killed one of his bestfriends by deflecting a blaster back at him. However, it is against the jedi code to kill an unarmed and defenseless person, who is already at his/her mercy.






Filoni said Savage put up a better fight. You can ignore the context of Sidious's fight with Savage if you want to, but then what would be the point in debating with you. Originally posted by Nephthys
You can see Kenobi still face down on the floor later in the duel some time later. He was clearly knocked out.

Lol I just watched the fight. We see Kenobi on the floor once. Sort of like when he was kicked by Dooku. The next time we see Kenobi he is pushing Ventress back. I dunno what the hell you two are talking about.

A KO would be what Dooku did to Kenobi aboard the Invisible Hand.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan was knocked out.

But the Ventress vs Anakin and Obi-Wan was completely different to Obi-Wan vs Maul and Opress.

Firstly Anakin and Obi-Wan won that duel with all their limbs in tact. Second they just were not willing to hurt her at all. They had her at their mercy a couple of times but did not seem willing to lay a scratch on her.

In the other fight Maul and Opress were clearly not so merciful and were confirmed by Filoni to be incapable of defeating Obi-Wan in that situation. And yes perhaps Maul didn't want Obi-Wan dead yet. But let's not pretend he'd cry if he had to kill him. Or that he wouldn't be willing to chop off a few limbs.

And going with consistent showings is all fine. As long as we don't forget Obi-Wan is significantly improving through the Clone Wars. And it's not like he lacks feats. Grievous, Ventress, Opress and Sith Anakin are all on his list of wins.

I see this has become a definition of the word Knock Out...still Power's statements essentially sum up my points.

Mace solos the brothers probably. The superconducting loop that allowed him to fight on par with Sidious would be doubled. In such a state as of when fighting both brothers, and feeding from both of their rage into his own strength he would probably be even more powerful than Sidious. Case closed.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol I just watched the fight. We see Kenobi on the floor once. Sort of like when he was kicked by Dooku. The next time we see Kenobi he is pushing Ventress back. I dunno what the hell you two are talking about.

A KO would be what Dooku did to Kenobi aboard the Invisible Hand.



After Kenobi is floored, Anakin is fighting Ventress on his own and you still see Obi-Wan lying still there in the background. That's what they're referring to. It seems he was KO'd for a few seconds.

But whatever. At least he still had all his limbs in tact and at least Anakin and Obi-Wan still won that duel, despite the fact that they did not pursue for the finish every time Ventress was disarmed.

None of that applies to Maul and Opress against Obi-Wan. The Sith Brothers were both aggressively attacking and couldn't do jack to Kenobi. Whilst Obi-Wan was besting Maul and stomping Opress simultaneously.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace solos the brothers probably. The superconducting loop that allowed him to fight on par with Sidious would be doubled. In such a state as of when fighting both brothers, and feeding from both of their rage into his own strength he would probably be even more powerful than Sidious. Case closed.

Didn't think of that. If he can feed of the rage off both of them it could make him seriously powerful.

But tbh I'm not sure anyone's certain about how exactly the superconducting loop works. We need more examples of it in play.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Didn't think of that. If he can feed of the rage off both of them it could make him seriously powerful.


That's the whole point of Vaapad.

It's a state of mind, not just a fighting style. It allows the combatant to channel his own darkness during the duel, and counter the fury and rage of the opponent. Using Vaapad means you understand the fury, power and rage of your opponent, transforming them and their darkness into a superconducting loop.

Mace Windu along with Sora Bulq invented Vaapad, but the only one to truly master it was Windu.

Add his Shatterpoint ability to this, and you'll see exactly why he beat Sidious and could solo the brothers.

In terms of pure lightsaber skill and mastery of the Force, by RotS, Yoda is stated to be Sidious' equal, but these are the abilities which Yoda lacks that gave Windu a serious edge over Sidious and allow him to be supremely effective against dark siders.

Mace beat Sidious by himself. The brothers die after a struggle.

I think that mace will help fisto and ultimately win. Kit fisto did a good job against grevious, who takes down jedi masters all the time. I definitely think team 1 will win with some, but not much, difficulty

Mace Windu goes Vaapad mode and ****s them up solo. lol

Originally posted by DARTH POWER After Kenobi is floored, Anakin is fighting Ventress on his own and you still see Obi-Wan lying still there in the background. That's what they're referring to. It seems he was KO'd for a few seconds.

Just re-watched it myself. It doesn't show Kenobi lying in background. It shows how he drops on the floor and that's it. They assumed that he is KO'd. But that's rather strange assumption considering that she kicked him at stomach level. If anything it should have winded him, not KO, which would require a few seconds to regain breath. Considering that Anakin was in control of the situation and there was no immediate threat to Kenobi's life there was no need for him to immediately jump up.

In any case they ignore that in later series Kenobi tanked much stronger kicks of Grievous and Maul and Anakin. Maul actually kicked Kenobi in the face followed by another kick that slammed him against the wall and Kenobi was still conscious. That's obvious ignorance of Kenobi's improved durability on their part.

In any case all characters have lowshowings at some points. Dooku got disarmed by single attack from Opress, while Ventress and Kenobi in all cases showed themselves better against Opress. But that still cannot take away feats like fighting Yoda, Ventress/Sisters, Kenobi/Windu and Anakin/Kenobi.

But as you pointed out the biggest fail is how they judge Fisto to be Kenobi's equal by comparing his high showing to Kenobi's lowshowing against Grievous.

With same success I can judge Fisto to be Windu's equal as he was unable to defeat Grievous a well:

"Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries.

As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad - - the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled. To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that.

In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs... The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike. The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts.

The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance. Mace saw by the surprised look in the cyborg's reptilian eyes that, for all his strength, dexterity, and resolve, the living part of him wasn't always in perfect sync with his alloy servos.

Clearly, Grievous - - onetime courageous commander of sentient troops - - realized what Mace had done and wanted to sidestep, where General Grievous - - current commander of droids and other war machines - - wanted nothing more than to impale Mace with lunging thrusts of the paired blades. Slipping into the gap made by Mace's saber, Grievous's left talon lost magnetic purchase on the roof, and the general faltered. Mace came out of his crouch prepared to drive his sword into Grievous's guts, but some last-instant firing of the general's cybersynapses compelled the cyborg's torso through a swift half twist that would have sent Mace's head hurtling into the canyon had the maneuver prevailed.

Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep. Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell,
"

So lets gather facts:
1. Grievous used only two lightsabers, not four.
2. Barely he activated them Mace was all over him trying to take him down with unusual aggression for a Jedi.
3. Grievous attacks were as forceful as any Windu ever had to counter.
4. Windu was astonished by his speed.
5. Grievous didn't know Vaapad, which was giving advantage to Windu. And it still didn't help, Grievous simply learned it on the go.
6. Windu wasn't interested in prolonging the contest and started retreating despite the fact that Kit Fisto already finished Magnaguards.
7. As Grievous jumped after Windu and "faltered", Windu tried to take full advantage of that and attacked... only to nearly lose his head and jump away as well as give a Force push.

It couldn't be more obvious that Windu tried his hardest and still his performance against Grievous is nowhere as impressive as Fisto's. And this fight was enough for Windu to conclude that not him nor Yoda are good enough to defeat Grievous and that Kenobi is the best contender.

Originally posted by Arhael And this fight was enough for Windu to conclude that not him nor Yoda are good enough to defeat Grievous and that Kenobi is the best contender. Oh you, I'll admit, I giggled.

Originally posted by NTJack0
Oh you, I'll admit, I giggled.
While I was parodying at how Sidious66 and Tempest label Fisto being equal to Kenobi, I was serious with the last statement.

According to Windu Yoda wouldn't be as good contender against Grievous as Kenobi:

Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."

This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught-to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts-Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive.

"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad-or Yoda's mastery of Ataru-"

Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataru is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.

"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?"

"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really-"

"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you.""

While you might not believe Windu's statement, he is still in far better position to judge Yoda's and Grievous' prowess than any forum user. He fought his hardest against Grievous and even tried to take advantage, when Grievous faltered and still failed to defeat him or at least put on the defensive. Not to mention that Grievous used only two lightsabers whole fight instead of four. He sparred with Yoda and knows his capabilities and limitations. He, also, addressed why Kenobi has better chance. A>B>C logic doesn't work because each character has different advantages and disadvantages. His judgment holds firm basis.

This is a NON fight... Team one utterly stomps. In fact, as I've stated before, Windu could and would solo

Arhael, bro, LoE was written prior to the events of ROTS and the current series where we now know that Grievous is no match for the elite. I applaud the attempt, but you're only protracting your agonizing failure.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Arhael, bro, LoE was written prior to the events of ROTS and the current series where we now know that Grievous is no match for the elite. I applaud the attempt, but you're only protracting your agonizing failure.
No match for the elite? You don't know, you assume. Kenobi is the elite. Grievous ever struggled only against Jarkai practitioners. And if you compare fight against Fisto and Ventress, you will notice that Grievous fought her evenly without being driven back, which demonstrates improvement. And in RotS Windu refers to exactly that fight against Grievous. Your attempt to dismiss two canon sources is laughable.

Originally posted by Arhael
No match for the elite? You don't know, you assume.

No, I know because that's what Filoni has gone on-record more than once to confirm.

Originally posted by Arhael
Kenobi is the elite. Grievous ever struggled only against Jarkai practitioners. And if you compare fight against Fisto and Ventress, you will notice that Grievous fought her evenly without being driven back, which demonstrates improvement.

Until, you know, he was driven back. facepalm

Originally posted by Arhael
And in RotS Windu refers to exactly that fight against Grievous. Your attempt to dismiss two canon sources is laughable.

facepalm

The novelization was written in 2005, the television series debuted in 2008. The depiction of Grievous evolved drastically from a nigh-unstoppable Jedi killer to a moderately-talented warrior who, to paraphrase Filoni, is no threat to "real Jedi."

Even if we granted the reference, the fact of the matter is that it may very well not have played out the way Labyrinth of Evil portrayed it. Similar to how Adi Gallia's death in "Revival" doesn't retcon the entirety of Obsession.

Try harder.

http://www.forcecast.net/story/forcecast/Weekly_ForceCast_January_20_2012_143166.asp

^ Check the ~55 minute mark at your leisure, Arhael. I'll check in with you later.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, I know because that's what Filoni has gone on-record more than once to confirm.
Be specific.


Sorry, didn't notice those few tiny steps at the end.


Wrong. Kenobi consistently struggles against Grievous. Ventress' victory wasn't easy easy either. Filoni only confirmed that Kenobi is top league saber combatant, yet, RotS Kenobi ones again has difficult fight against him. Grievous is not a threat for "real Jedi"? Grievous has always being threat for Kenobi and he barely defeated him in RotS. So according to what you said Kenobi must be fake Jedi. What a joke. I guess only fake Jedi can outskill brothers combined and defeat chosen one. Your speculation about evolving imbued by facepalms is not withstanding.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://www.forcecast.net/story/forcecast/Weekly_ForceCast_January_20_2012_143166.asp

^ Check the ~55 minute mark at your leisure, Arhael. I'll check in with you later.
Nice one. He dismisses Grievous overhanging performance from mini series, which I never to seriously either, so in this case we are on the same wave.

He states that Grievous is not that big challenge as in mini CW. Nevertheless, he refers to fight between Kenobi and Grievous as "good fight".

He' also, says: "It doesn't mean he is not a threat". So your statement that he is not a threat for "real Jedi" still notwithstanding.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, I know because that's what Filoni has gone on-record more than once to confirm.



Until, you know, he was driven back. facepalm



facepalm

The novelization was written in 2005, the television series debuted in 2008. The depiction of Grievous evolved drastically from a nigh-unstoppable Jedi killer to a moderately-talented warrior who, to paraphrase Filoni, is no threat to "real Jedi."

Even if we granted the reference, the fact of the matter is that it may very well not have played out the way Labyrinth of Evil portrayed it. Similar to how Adi Gallia's death in "Revival" doesn't retcon the entirety of Obsession.

Try harder.

You do realize the HIGHEST form of canon i.e. > than Filoni view.. Has Mace outright saying.. Nobody can get The General except Kenobi. He even mentions that neither him nor Yoda are as good for the job as Kenobi. Without any hesitation or question that dismisses this laughable theory that The General is no match for "real jedi" whatever the F that even means.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You do realize the HIGHEST form of canon i.e. > than Filoni view.. Has Mace outright saying.. Nobody can get The General except Kenobi. He even mentions that neither him nor Yoda are as good for the job as Kenobi. Without any hesitation or question that dismisses this laughable theory that The General is no match for "real jedi" whatever the F that even means.

And you must be high on some good shit if you think Yoda would have anything but zero difficulty against the General.

Also quote from LOE
"I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council members. Must I demonstrate what would happen should you fight Obi-Wan Kenobi or Cin Drallig, Mace Windu, or stars help you, Yoda?"-Count Dooku
/
"I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council members. Must I demonstrate what would happen should you fight Obi-Wan Kenobi or Shaak Ti, Mace Windu, or stars help you, Yoda?"

...Although the Shaak Ti thing makes no sense. I tend to go with the first one, as Shaak Ti, even with backup doesn't think she can match the General.

You do realize that a HIGHER form of Canon has him as a much more formidable foe.. you do know the levels of canon right?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You do realize that a HIGHER form of Canon has him as a much more formidable foe.. you do know the levels of canon right?

LOE and ROTS novel are both C-canon.

And we've seen the treatment Yoda gave Ventress. It'd be 10,000 times worse with the General because he has no force defenses.

I'm talking about the Movie.. mace also has a talk with Kenobi.. granted he doesn't say as much as the Novel.. but he makes it abundatly clear The General is a big threat and worthy foe.

I agree Yoda would tool him.. doesn't change the highest form of canon and supporting canon making him very very formidable.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm talking about the Movie.. mace also has a talk with Kenobi.. granted he doesn't say as much as the Novel.. but he makes it abundatly clear The General is a big threat and worthy foe.

I agree Yoda would tool him.. doesn't change the highest form of canon and supporting canon making him very very formidable.


Oh I agree that the General is a formidable threat. I hate what TCW has done to his character.

You'll get the quote and its source as soon as I find it or a concession and apology (on that particular point, at least) if I don't.



As with the conclusion of the duel with Ventress, I'm going to assume you just didn't pay attention as opposed to lying.





Or, to borrow your terms, Grievous can't take the Jedi "in pure saberz."

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You'll get the quote and its source as soon as I find it or a concession and apology (on that particular point, at least) if I don't.
I will give apology after you give apology for attempting to dismiss canon evidence because in your opinion Grievous is not a threat for "real Jedi".


My point remains. Grievous put up better fight against Ventress than Fisto. That small detail, which I didn't even notice before doesn't change anything.


It goes either way. Ventress was the only one who actually defeated him in pure sabers. Kenobi in every fight was unable to outright defeat Grievous and used TK to achieve the result. Eeth Koth was getting overwhelmed in sabers and use Force push for which got punished by Magnaguards. Fisto used help of his Padawan and Troopers. Then during Jarkai fight he used Force push. Windu was unable to defeat Grievous with sabers and used Force push. Neither side fights fairly.

...Who asked you to apologize?



Sounds like you shouldn't be so keen to jump the gun, what with all these details you neglect.



Right, so by your prescribed logic, only Ventress can equal Grievous "in teh pure saberz." And we edge ever closer to the epiphany that your argument is self-defeating.

Originally posted by Arhael
. Eeth Koth was getting overwhelmed in sabers and use Force push for which got punished by Magnaguards.
Koth started that fight with a wounded saber arm...give him a break!

All this argument is proving is that Grievous is a terrible terrible medium through which to compare the prowess of different Jedi.

His showings have been hugely inconsistent.

But Arhael's right- Grievous has proven a challenge to everyone he's faced in Saber combat even in TCW. So TCW hasn't changed things too much in that respect.

On the other hand in an All Out, One on One battle, where both combatants are ready, it's pretty clear he'd lose to any Council Member in TCW.

And to be fair Even is we refer to the CW Mini Shaak Ti and Mundi only lost to him after being exhausted from the previous battles.LOE also suggests Grievous wouldn't fair too well against Council Members so not that much has changed really.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You do realize that a HIGHER form of Canon has him as a much more formidable foe.. you do know the levels of canon right?

The only canon higher than TCW series is the movies where Grievous gets completely stomped. And nothings mentioned about him being a formidable foe(in the movie). It's mentioned he's a coward who will always run.

And you do realize TCW is created by George Lucas and it was HIS decision to have him losing all these fights.

So stop using Levels of Canonicity as your argument. Because it's really not helping your case.

Oh and this from the ROTS script:

His arms separate and grab all four lightsabers on his belt. His four arms create a flashing display of swordsmanship.


OBI-WAN is hard-pressed to defend himself against the deadly onslaught.

So he's never been easy pickings in Sabers. It's not easy defending against his 4 Sabers. Yes I said it- 4 Sabers! End of the day it was his swinging of 4 Sabers that made his strikes as fast as 20 per second.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
All this argument is proving is that Grievous is a terrible terrible medium through which to compare the prowess of different Jedi.

His showings have been hugely inconsistent.

But Arhael's right- Grievous has proven a challenge to everyone he's faced in Saber combat even in TCW. So TCW hasn't changed things too much in that respect.

On the other hand in an All Out, One on One battle, where both combatants are ready, it's pretty clear he'd lose to any Council Member in TCW.

And to be fair Even is we refer to the CW Mini Shaak Ti and Mundi only lost to him after being exhausted from the previous battles.LOE also suggests Grievous wouldn't fair too well against Council Members so not that much has changed really.



The only canon higher than TCW series is the movies where Grievous gets completely stomped. And nothings mentioned about him being a formidable foe(in the movie). It's mentioned he's a coward who will always run.

And you do realize TCW is created by George Lucas and it was HIS decision to have him losing all these fights.

So stop using Levels of Canonicity as your argument. Because it's really not helping your case.

I'm curious.. do you consider the ROTS Novel to be the same Canonicity as the TCW series?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm curious.. do you consider the ROTS Novel to be the same Canonicity as the TCW series?

Oohh That's a hard one.

TCW is created and executive produces by Lucas. And all the big stories come from him and he has the final say on pretty much Everything.

But the Novel was based on Lucas's story and script and was apparently line edited by him.

So I'd say they're very close. Both just below the movies themsleves, and the movie scripts, which are all G-Canon.

But I'd personally go for TCW since that's newer, more up to date, and Lucas's latest decision on matters go into there (he changes his mind a lot).

But like I wrote above even in TCW Grievous has given pretty much everyone a hard time in Saber Combat. The majority defeat him with a Force Push. The only one whose so far defeated him in pure Saber combat (without resorting to a Force TK attack) is Ventress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The only one whose so far defeated him in pure Saber combat (without resorting to a Force TK attack) is Ventress. When did that happen? I only ask because I remember Grievous easily defeating Ventress(and Durge) during 'The Clone Wars'(2003 series)..?

Her skills must have increased significantly since then.

Originally posted by Galan007
When did that happen? I only ask because I remember Grievous easily defeating Ventress(and Durge) during 'The Clone Wars'(2003 series)..?

Her skills must have increased significantly since then.

TCW Season 4 episode 19 - Massacre.

His beating of Ventress and Durge wasn't the 2003 series. It was another Eu source. A comic book I think.

And she was confirmed to have got more powerful in the season 3 episode "Nightsisters" when Sidious ordered her assassination specifically because her power was growing.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
His beating of Ventress and Durge wasn't the 2003 series. It was another Eu source. A comic book I think. Yeah, it happened in a comic series--- Clone Wars Adventures v3.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and this from the ROTS script:

His arms separate and grab all four lightsabers on his belt. His four arms create a flashing display of swordsmanship.


OBI-WAN is hard-pressed to defend himself against the deadly onslaught.

So he's never been easy pickings in Sabers. It's not easy defending against his 4 Sabers. Yes I said it- 4 Sabers! End of the day it was his swinging of 4 Sabers that made his strikes as fast as 20 per second.

Still 20 per second is nothing to sneeze at...that's NJO Luke levels.

Contrary to how Grievous has been portrayed in the animated series(his loss to Fisto was simply embarrassing), the fact still remains that he was able to give a few of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order(namely Obi-Wan and Mace) and very good saber fight. There aren't many who can boast the same.

Originally posted by Galan007
Contrary to how Grievous has been portrayed in the animated series(his loss to Fisto was simply embarrassing), the fact still remains that he was able to give a few of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order(namely Obi-Wan and Mace) and very good saber fight. There aren't many who can boast the same.

Someone should have given Kit two sabers against Sidious with that performance.

IMO, Ventress can give most Jedi in the PT a run for their money.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
IMO, Ventress can give most Jedi in the PT a run for their money.

Unless you are one of the six great swordbeings of the Jedi Order, Ventress can likely take you down.

*not 6 sword beings. Just sword beings.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
*not 6 sword beings. Just sword beings.

Who exactly did you have in mind?

Originally posted by Vensai
Who exactly did you have in mind?
"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is no- where in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become."

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Unless you are one of the six great swordbeings of the Jedi Order, Ventress can likely take you down.

Plo Koon fought her off with a broken arm and Kit probably takes her as well. Ventress would probably make short work of most Jedi Knights and Masters, but I believe the ranking members of the Council have her edged out.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Plo Koon fought her off with a broken arm and Kit probably takes her as well. Ventress would probably make short work of most Jedi Knights and Masters, but I believe the ranking members of the Council have her edged out.

Kit Fisto lost to Ventress in Cetus Deception. I count Plo Koon amongst the sword beings of the order actually...although he did lose to Savage (such a silly thing).

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kit Fisto lost to Ventress in Cetus Deception.

The same Cestus Deception wherein Kit was depicted to outclass Obi-Wan? mmm

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I count Plo Koon amongst the sword beings of the order actually...although he did lose to Savage (such a silly thing).

Savage and Ventress are peers. And, as I explained to you, it wasn't a decisive victory for the Zabrak.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The same Cestus Deception wherein Kit was depicted to outclass Obi-Wan? mmm

The same Cetus Deception that occurs four weeks after AOTC. I don't think AOTC Kenobi would be able to defeat, hell or even stalemate General Grievous. Kit Fisto did.




I agree. He cheated excellent

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The same Cetus Deception that occurs four weeks after AOTC


Well, do you consider AOTC Obi Wan holding his own against Dooku for about 20 or so seconds as being a brief stalemate?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...Who asked you to apologize?

Misunderstood, sorry, I am a foreigner!



And my point remains, he fought better and more confidently against her.



Ventress had advantage of using Jarkai. You keep ignoring that having more lightsabers makes it easier to defend against multiple attacks.

Pong Krell with two double blades could defend against army of clones attacking from all sides. It's very simple to conclude that using more lightsabers makes it easier to block more attacks with less movements.

Lord Nyax fending off Luke+Mara+Tahiri+17 Vongs. If he had only one lightsaber, he would have to be multiple times faster to deflect the same amount of attacks. And he fought them offensively.

Grievous was attacked by Fisto and Nahdar from opposite sides and was fending them off simultaneously. Can you imagine similar feat, if he had only one lightsaber?

If Grievous splits hands into four, each hand is twice weaker but four blades is just too much to deflect with single saber. But having two lightsabers takes away that advantage as practitioner can block more attacks.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well, do you consider AOTC Obi Wan holding his own against Dooku for about 20 or so seconds as being a brief stalemate?

I consider it a decent feat considering that an exhausted Kenobi was able to fend off blows from a fresh top tier opponent. What surprises me more is how an exhausted Kenobi's force defenses prevented Dooku's FL-TK combo after it owned Anakin.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The same Cetus Deception that occurs four weeks after AOTC. I don't think AOTC Kenobi would be able to defeat, hell or even stalemate General Grievous. Kit Fisto did.




I agree. He cheated excellent

I suppose Opress didn't really best Plo in sabers.

Originally posted by Vensai



I suppose Opress didn't really best Plo in sabers.

If you don't include physical attacks then I suppose you could say he's not beat him in "Pure Sabers" but he's best him in close combat. As he has Ventress. I don't see why people are not accepting his superiority over the 2.

Unless they want to agree that Ventress would have performed better with BOTH HER SABERS! (I actually think she would have).

Either way Ventress would tool Fisto. There's no reason at all to believe that Fisto has improved to the extent that Ventress has through the Clone Wars. So no reason at all to believe that she still wouldn't tool him as of Late CW/ROTS.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well, do you consider AOTC Obi Wan holding his own against Dooku for about 20 or so seconds as being a brief stalemate?

Hardly Dooku was playing with him.

You should take a gander at Leland Chee's Chronicling the Clone Wars blog series on StarWars.com. It's pretty enlightening.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If you don't include physical attacks then I suppose you could say he's not beat him in "Pure Sabers" but he's best him in close combat. As he has Ventress. I don't see why people are not accepting his superiority over the 2.

Unless they want to agree that Ventress would have performed better with BOTH HER SABERS! (I actually think she would have).

Either way Ventress would tool Fisto. There's no reason at all to believe that Fisto has improved to the extent that Ventress has through the Clone Wars. So no reason at all to believe that she still wouldn't tool him as of Late CW/ROTS.

Plo's reliance on his breath mask leaves him vulnerable to such physical attacks. And Ventress is used to using two sabers instead of one, so she is somewhat reliant on the both of them. Fisto's Form 1 has a natural disadvantage agaisnt Form 2 users. And Ventress has gotten stronger since their first meeting.