Darth Caedus VS. Yoda

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Excalibur2776
Who would win in a battle to the death!
Setting: Senate room where Yoda and Darth Sidious fought.
No rules, only the strongest survives, BATTLE TO THE DEATH evil face

Nephthys
Yoda imo.

Mizukage Yoda
Yoda barely makes it.

Rookwood
I'd have to go with Caedus here.

In a strange twist of irony, Ahrael proved that Jacen had casual Telekinetic abilities on par with, or greater than Yoda.

And his swordsmanship is enough to give Peak-Luke hell and take out impressive Masters like Mara Jade and Kyle Katarn.

Add in Caedus' esoteric Force techniques and combat-arts - and Caedus is able to defeat Yoda, with high difficulty.

Arhael
Caedus wins.

axel_jovan

Ascendancy
Originally posted by Rookwood
I'd have to go with Caedus here.

In a strange twist of irony, Ahrael proved that Jacen had casual Telekinetic abilities on par with, or greater than Yoda.

And his swordsmanship is enough to give Peak-Luke hell and take out impressive Masters like Mara Jade and Kyle Katarn.

Add in Caedus' esoteric Force techniques and combat-arts - and Caedus is able to defeat Yoda, with high difficulty.

While she may have used everything at her disposal, Mara Jade bested Caedus, only falling to him because of his poison dart. Caedus only survived Luke as long as he did because he was in an environment that gave him the aid of Vong biology and because of Ben's presence.

Caedus is not the equal of Yoda in sabers. Even in total Force prowess I don't give him the nod as with all his arcane techniques he was defeated over and over by Luke, Jaina, Mara Jade, etc. Even the Mandos threw him a beatdown.

He's no punk, but he is not on Yoda's level.

Vensai
Give a few years and Caedus takes it. But Yoda has experience on his side. He wins by a hair.

wolfpack86
Yoda, the legend still rises. He bested Sidious in sabers, and was equal if not better in force.

Arhael
Originally posted by Ascendancy
While she may have used everything at her disposal, Mara Jade bested Caedus, only falling to him because of his poison dart. Caedus only survived Luke as long as he did because he was in an environment that gave him the aid of Vong biology and because of Ben's presence.

Caedus is not the equal of Yoda in sabers. Even in total Force prowess I don't give him the nod as with all his arcane techniques he was defeated over and over by Luke, Jaina, Mara Jade, etc. Even the Mandos threw him a beatdown.

He's no punk, but he is not on Yoda's level.
Mara on her own has feats to rival Yoda.

Luke started fight with snick attack putting Caedus at disadvantage right at beginning. Caedus survived with help of vines. Both applied dirty tactics. Moreover, Luke took advantage of vines as well.

But most important is that, when they both had straight saber fight, Jacen broke Luke's leg.

Fight ended because Ben stabbed him in the back, not because Luke defeated him.

Overall, noone managed to batter Luke that bad. Not even Sidious. And noone fought Luke so evenly in sabers since Sidious as well.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Arhael
Mara on her own has feats to rival Yoda.

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-crossarms.gif

S_W_LeGenD
Yoda IMO

Vorpal Ruin
Yoda will not be dealing with the same psychological issues that Luke was when fighting Jacen. Yoda wins.

Arhael
Let's recap her feats.

Just 1 year prior to DE Luke fought C'baot and even got overpowered by him, while Mara resisted his combined lightning and TK.

She fought Lord Nyax together with Luke and Tahiri. His strength was such that he could knock Vong off feet with one swing and was driving Luke back. His speed was such that he blitzed Voxin, while for Jedi strike team killing them was a "routine work". His Force power was such that he nearly mind dominated all three and demonstrated far superior TK. And Mara performed as good as Luke against him.

Mara defeated Lumya without use of shoto. Luke was able to do the same only because of desire to avenge Mara.

As you see there are plenty of evidence proving that Mara's combat capabilities are close to Luke. Luke himself had opinion that Mara would kick Jacen's ass.


Hah! Are you implying that Luke's performance was hampered? All evidence suggests opposite.

Luke was angry in that fight. Should I remind you how angry Luke outskilled Vader? Or how anger empowers Force users in general and makes them much more dangerous combatats?

Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been. - Luke took early advantage of his sneak attack and nearly killed Jacen right at the begining. How many characters would be able to sustain elbow to the temple? Add the knee smash into chin followed by lightsaber strike into chest and it becomes miraculous that Jacen survived at all.

Jacen barely recovered from previous attack and Luke does another lethal combo:
Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-


Luke struck again with his lightsaber, using both hands and putting all his strength into the attack, beating his nephew's guard down so far that Jacen's emerald blade bit into his own shoulder. - do you ever remember Luke trying to overpower someone with strength? Fight against Vader is perhaps the only example.

And yet another dirty trick from Luke:
"His blade met Jacen's in a shower of brilliant sparks. Luke freed one hand and drove a finger-strike at Jacen's eyes.

Jacen turned his head, but Luke's little finger scratched across something soft and bulbous. Jacen roared and stumbled away, shaking his head."

And another one:
"He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter."

Never in his life Luke fought so lethally. Never in his life he employed so many dirty tricks. Mara because of Ben almost killed Jacen. Luke fought for exactly the same reason, Ben's life depended on him. The assumption that he didn't fight at his best is simply unsupported.

So how exactly do you imagine Yoda beating Jacen? Luke did it through unarmed combat techniques, which he normally doesn't employ at all and still fight ended in stalemate. Yoda can't do same things cos of his physical limitations. Through pure saber skill? Yoda was unable to defeat Dooku on even ground. Sidious dropped lightsaber himself to prevent falling from platform, on even ground there is no way Sidious would get disarmed by Yoda. Luke is superior to both Dooku and Sidious and Caedus still badly battered him. That's sufficient enough to be above likes of Yoda and Windu.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Arhael
Sidious dropped lightsaber himself to prevent falling from platform

Uhmmm... NO! That statement of yours is completely unsubstantiated and outright false.

Vensai
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Uhmmm... NO! That statement of yours is completely unsubstantiated and outright false.

Indeed, the ROTS screenplay states that Yoda managed to disarm Sidious during their saber duel.

Mizukage Yoda
Lol how is Caedus winning in the polls? Someone create a shit ton of dupes or something?

Visage
Force: Darth Caedus has Telekinesis on par with Yoda, or perhaps greater - as a Jedi Apprentice, he managed to casually roll a ship roughly twice the size of an X-Wing - and rip one of it's wings off, to allow access for himself and his friends.
Logically, when he was older and more refined/stronger in this area, his status as a peer with Yoda in this area would be concrete.

Lightsaber Swordsmanship: Cadeus has demonstrated the remarkable defeat of two Jedi Masters who rival Yoda in most respects - Master Kyle Katarn, the neophyte who defeated a Dark Jedi on par with Vader; defeated a rogue Jedi who was able to stalemate Post-DE Luke and then went on to become the head lightsaber instructor or Battlemaster, of the Jedi Temple.
Caedus also defeated Mara Jade, a Jedi who was able to defeat Post-Jerec Kyle Katarn, when he had turned to the Dark side on Dromund Kaas, and who was also able to kill a variety of foes, including Luke Skywalker's Clone, the powerful clone of a Jedi Master, and multiple assassins and later Yuuzhan Vong.

Even when outnumbered (as with Katarn) or when the environment had been suited to his opponent's purpose (as with Mara) Caedus still had the skill and knowledge to defeat his considerably powerful opponents.

He later went toe-to-toe with a Force God Luke, and gave him hell.

Experience: Along with his earlier adventures, Caedus gained considerable experience during the Yuuzhan Vong War, learning how to connect to The Unifying Force (something Yoda can't connect to) and also learned esoteric Force abilities such as Flow Walking - through the course of his travels, he arguably experienced just as much warfare as Yoda, and also through the course of it, became a wiser individual.

Applicable Knowledge: As a Jedi Apprentice, Jacen had promise and was talented - when he became a Knight, he was formidable and had learned esoteric abilities, such as the unblockable technique of Emerald Force Lightning and was able to defeat opponents that even Jedi Master Kyp Durron could not - such as the Slayers.
After focusing and refining his knowledge and technique, he was finally able to defeat powerful Jedi Masters, that were arguably *approaching* the level of RotS Sidious (in terms of killing potential) - and even though he could beat the best of Luke's Order - it took the most powerful and refined version of the Chosen One to stop him.

Mathematically, in terms of power, skill and feats, Darth Caedus is on par with a much earlier version of Luke, DE Luke, who all Debators would agree could defeat Yoda in a close fight.

- In a straight fight, at reasonably close distances - Caedus wins.

Caedus does not win comfortably - and he would be covered in blood and exhausted - but he would win.

Vensai
Originally posted by Visage
Force: Darth Caedus has Telekinesis on par with Yoda, or perhaps greater - as a Jedi Apprentice, he managed to casually roll a ship roughly twice the size of an X-Wing - and rip one of it's wings off, to allow access for himself and his friends.
Logically, when he was older and more refined/stronger in this area, his status as a peer with Yoda in this area would be concrete.

Lightsaber Swordsmanship: Cadeus has demonstrated the remarkable defeat of two Jedi Masters who rival Yoda in most respects - Master Kyle Katarn, the neophyte who defeated a Dark Jedi on par with Vader; defeated a rogue Jedi who was able to stalemate Post-DE Luke and then went on to become the head lightsaber instructor or Battlemaster, of the Jedi Temple.
Caedus also defeated Mara Jade, a Jedi who was able to defeat Post-Jerec Kyle Katarn, when he had turned to the Dark side on Dromund Kaas, and who was also able to kill a variety of foes, including Luke Skywalker's Clone, the powerful clone of a Jedi Master, and multiple assassins and later Yuuzhan Vong.

Even when outnumbered (as with Katarn) or when the environment had been suited to his opponent's purpose (as with Mara) Caedus still had the skill and knowledge to defeat his considerably powerful opponents.

He later went toe-to-toe with a Force God Luke, and gave him hell.

Experience: Along with his earlier adventures, Caedus gained considerable experience during the Yuuzhan Vong War, learning how to connect to The Unifying Force (something Yoda can't connect to) and also learned esoteric Force abilities such as Flow Walking - through the course of his travels, he arguably experienced just as much warfare as Yoda, and also through the course of it, became a wiser individual.

Applicable Knowledge: As a Jedi Apprentice, Jacen had promise and was talented - when he became a Knight, he was formidable and had learned esoteric abilities, such as the unblockable technique of Emerald Force Lightning and was able to defeat opponents that even Jedi Master Kyp Durron could not - such as the Slayers.
After focusing and refining his knowledge and technique, he was finally able to defeat powerful Jedi Masters, that were arguably *approaching* the level of RotS Sidious (in terms of killing potential) - and even though he could beat the best of Luke's Order - it took the most powerful and refined version of the Chosen One to stop him.

Mathematically, in terms of power, skill and feats, Darth Caedus is on par with a much earlier version of Luke, DE Luke, who all Debators would agree could defeat Yoda in a close fight.

- In a straight fight, at reasonably close distances - Caedus wins.

Caedus does not win comfortably - and he would be covered in blood and exhausted - but he would win.

You make a good argument. However, Caedus does not have almost 900 years of experience that Yoda possesses. Caedus did well against Luke, but remember that Luke hesitated to kill a member of his family.

Would DE Luke beat Yoda? Luke was disarmed by Sidious without Leia's assistance while Yoda managed to outduel the dark lord.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Vensai
You make a good argument. However, Caedus does not have almost 900 years of experience that Yoda possesses. Caedus did well against Luke, but remember that Luke hesitated to kill a member of his family.

Would DE Luke beat Yoda? Luke was disarmed by Sidious without Leia's assistance while Yoda managed to outduel the dark lord.

This is true
+ Sidious' swordsmanship was likely rusty as of DE.

Visage
Originally posted by Vensai
You make a good argument.

Thank you.



Originally posted by Vensai

However, Caedus does not have almost 900 years of experience that Yoda possesses.

Neither did Sidious.



Originally posted by Vensai

Caedus did well against Luke, but remember that Luke hesitated to kill a member of his family.
Originally posted by Arhael

Never in his life Luke fought so lethally. Never in his life he employed so many dirty tricks. Mara because of Ben almost killed Jacen. Luke fought for exactly the same reason, Ben's life depended on him. The assumption that he didn't fight at his best is simply unsupported.

thumb up I like how Arhael puts it.



Originally posted by Vensai

Would DE Luke beat Yoda? Luke was disarmed by Sidious without Leia's assistance

When that occurred, Sidious was in the presence of a Dark side Nexus.

For some reason, most people seem to ignore/forget that Leia was using her Battle Meditation to empower Luke during his rematch with Sidious, but regardless, Luke during Dark Empire seems to be roughly on par with Yoda in terms of skill and power.

Caedus is likely a notch above DE Luke is the saber-department, but either way.

DE Luke would win by the skin of his teeth - and Caedus not by much more than that.



Originally posted by Vensai

while Yoda managed to outduel the dark lord.

If Caedus can drop Battlemaster Kyle Katarn in 10 seconds - he's on par with Yoda.

With all of his unique capabilities, experience, the sum of his power, etc - Caedus would win - but it would be close.

Vensai
Alright, after listening to Visage's counterarguments, I think this is a draw. This fight is so close that I think the environment and other outside circumstances would be the deciding factor.

Visage
Originally posted by Vensai
Alright, after listening to Visage's counterarguments, I think this is a draw. This fight is so close that I think the environment and other outside circumstances would be the deciding factor.

Exactly.

Arhael
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Uhmmm... NO! That statement of yours is completely unsubstantiated and outright false.

O yeah?
Let me refresh your memory:
"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA".

As per script Sidious almost fell from edge, which happened because they were on platform on first place. The unfavorable circumstance is rather obvious.

And as per script Sidious drops lightsaber himself in order to remain on the platform.

In film it is seen that platform surface is uneven deprving Sidious from moving freely. And indeed Sidious stays statically in the middle, while Yoda freely jumps around him. Considering that Sidious normally relies on acrobatics and uses foot work a lot, he is rather at big disadvantage.


Keep in mind that Luke was on Darkside at that point. He only had brief training from Sidious. It doesn't suit his personality and only gave Sidious influence over him. In second fight he re-embrased Lightside, which he used for 10 years.


The only time he hestiate was, when Jacen was enwitted in vines and only because Ben shouted. Otherwise Luke tried to kill him as quickly and mercilessly as it could get:
"Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been"

"Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-"

Trying to split Jacen in half at chest level right after elbowing him in the temple and kneeing in the chin hardly defines as hestitated to kill family member. And it's not like Jacen would have second head grow, if Luke succeeded in decapitating him. smile

In comparison Kenobi was much kinder to his enemies. When he broke Opress' leg, he chopped off a hand instead of killing. When Anakin jumped, he chopped off his limbs. Later against Krayt he again chopped off hand. But Luke aimed his lightsaber at places that would nothing less than kill.


The reason is that Leia aiding Luke is only an assumption used to lowball Luke's feat. She did not use BM during saber fight and there is no source that would state that. It's a mere speculation.

As per audiobook Leia is just a passive observer:
"LEIA: Be careful, Luke! The Force is strong....they're both moving so fast, I can hardly see them....I feel waves of power....the Dark Side and the Light.....But......I feel......the Light.....is winning!!"

Leia aided Luke only after he disarmed Palpatine to counter Force Storm:
"LEIA: But WE can, Luke. WE can do it. That's what the Holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours".

Farther, Leia discovered knowledge about BM only in DE 2 and still she did not learn to use it, just read text.

Finally, DE sourcebook describes technique Luke and Leia used as "Force harmony" and it specifically states that they used this technique to counter Force Storm, no mention of saber fight. Will bring the quote later, if you want.

So, it can be safely concluded that Leia did not use BM and never possessed this ability at all. Luke defeated Sidious in saber fight fair and square.

Q99
Jerec, while strong, was not on par with Vader. He desired to be the next Sith Apprentice, being Vader was basically his goal.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Arhael
O yeah?
Let me refresh your memory:
"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA".

As per script Sidious almost fell from edge, which happened because they were on platform on first place. The unfavorable circumstance is rather obvious.

Yoda disarms Sidious. This is obvious. For you to interpret the script's description as Sidious dropping his lightsaber on purpose is flat out ridiculous. It didn't say Sidious put his lightsaber down. He dropped it. As in "oh shit, I just lost my lightsaber because Yoda is beating the shit out of me." Hence the qualifer; "...but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY..."

This is similar to how a football player drops/fumbles the ball after being drilled. Please cease with the desperate interpretation.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
"oh shit, I just lost my lightsaber because Yoda is beating the shit out of me."

I must reject this interpretation on principle. uhuh

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I must reject this interpretation on principle. uhuh So be it! gunsmilie

NewGuy01
Shit, I have I say Yoda BARELY... Ungodly close.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Arhael


As per script Sidious almost fell from edge, which happened because they were on platform on first place. The unfavorable circumstance is rather obvious.



To be honest I'm not sure I buy into him being disadvantaged, since it was his choice to move the fight there. And Yoda having to jump around edge of the senate pod isn't exactly ideal for him.

Visage
Originally posted by Q99
Jerec, while strong, was not on par with Vader. He desired to be the next Sith Apprentice, being Vader was basically his goal.

As of the events of Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight, Jerec's goal was only to attain the power of the Valley of the Jedi.

And the game material confirmed that Jerec rivaled Vader in terms of power, so he was already on par with Vader.

The Jerec that Kyle defeated though, was even more powerful than that (absorbed the souls of Jedi at the Valley of the Jedi), and thusly surpassed Vader.

Vorpal Ruin
Originally posted by Arhael
Hah! Are you implying that Luke's performance was hampered? All evidence suggests opposite.

Luke was angry in that fight. Should I remind you how angry Luke outskilled Vader? Or how anger empowers Force users in general and makes them much more dangerous combatats?

Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been. - Luke took early advantage of his sneak attack and nearly killed Jacen right at the begining. How many characters would be able to sustain elbow to the temple? Add the knee smash into chin followed by lightsaber strike into chest and it becomes miraculous that Jacen survived at all.

Jacen barely recovered from previous attack and Luke does another lethal combo:
Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-


Luke struck again with his lightsaber, using both hands and putting all his strength into the attack, beating his nephew's guard down so far that Jacen's emerald blade bit into his own shoulder. - do you ever remember Luke trying to overpower someone with strength? Fight against Vader is perhaps the only example.

And yet another dirty trick from Luke:
"His blade met Jacen's in a shower of brilliant sparks. Luke freed one hand and drove a finger-strike at Jacen's eyes.

Jacen turned his head, but Luke's little finger scratched across something soft and bulbous. Jacen roared and stumbled away, shaking his head."

And another one:
"He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter."

Never in his life Luke fought so lethally. Never in his life he employed so many dirty tricks. Mara because of Ben almost killed Jacen. Luke fought for exactly the same reason, Ben's life depended on him. The assumption that he didn't fight at his best is simply unsupported.

So how exactly do you imagine Yoda beating Jacen? Luke did it through unarmed combat techniques, which he normally doesn't employ at all and still fight ended in stalemate. Yoda can't do same things cos of his physical limitations. Through pure saber skill? Yoda was unable to defeat Dooku on even ground. Sidious dropped lightsaber himself to prevent falling from platform, on even ground there is no way Sidious would get disarmed by Yoda. Luke is superior to both Dooku and Sidious and Caedus still badly battered him. That's sufficient enough to be above likes of Yoda and Windu.

That is a long reply because of a misunderstanding. I'lll stand by what I said, which was, imo, objective. Though I greatly disagree with Caedus beating Yoda in any fair battlefield. Caedus couldn't beat Luke in a fair fight either.

Raptor22
I think Yoda takes this.

Also I just wanted to add that just because anger made Luke stronger in a fight 40 years ago doesn't mean the same holds true for an older more mature Luke. He's usually most lethal when he has a clear head is focussed and almost cockey. Luke actually comments on it right after his fight with jacen when he says to Ben "you can't surrender to your rage Ben. I did that with lumiya, and all it did was make me weak."

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Raptor22

Also I just wanted to add that just because anger made Luke stronger in a fight 40 years ago doesn't mean the same holds true for an older more mature Luke.

True. Anger empowered a young Obi-Wan against Darth Maul. But the older Obi-Wan who had gained proper focus was put off balance and starting losing the fight when CW Maul was bringing out his anger.

On the other hand, keeping composure but getting rid of the whole "Jedi Restraint" thing is bound to boost performance.

SIDIOUS 66
Don't know enough of Caedus' feats, but I do know Mara was kicking his ass for a good portion of their fight, though I guess most of that was due to circumstace.

I'll vote for Yoda just 'cause.

Ascendancy
Mara certainly used the surroundings against him, but she also out dueled and out fought him. She was superior throughout the entirety of the fight, which is why how she died was so freaking weak.

Nothing in that series to me suggested that Caedus was on Yoda's level in any way in the arena of combat. He as good, but not capable of defeating Sidious, Windu, or Yoda good.

The_Tempest
Caedus can take Mace, IMHO.

Based
Yoda with moderate difficulty. He was even with Sids until the terrain screwed him over.

Visage
Originally posted by Vensai
Alright, after listening to Visage's counterarguments, I think this is a draw. This fight is so close that I think the environment and other outside circumstances would be the deciding factor.

thumb up

Arhael
That's not interpretation that's what text says. Yoda caused him to almost fall from platform and Sidious dropped lightsaber as result. That wouldn't happen, if it was on even ground.

Similarly Kenobi dropped his lightsaber to grab onto something, when Maul Force pushed him.

In either case losing lightsaber is a matter of circumstance rather than saber skill difference.


Yoda jumps around just like in AotC, while Sidious stays statically in one place. In all other fights Sidious relied on foot work and acrobatics.

And yes, it was his choice and it gave him edge in Force fight.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Caedus couldn't beat Luke in a fair fight either.
They never had fair fight. First fight happened through illusions and Jacen was at disadvantage because of lack of gravity in his place.

And this fight wasn't fair either. Jacen wasn't prepared not physically, nor mentally, when Luke suddenly attacked him from behind and as result scored a lightsaber gash in kidney, which gave him even more advantage. It could be argued that the wound gave Luke no advantage because Jacen draws on pain but I have evidence that it isn't so:

"A sudden infliction of pain could surprise him, surely. But it couldn't keep him down.

He let the pain flow through him as though it were the Force. He internalized it, experiencing it as an old friend-albeit an old friend he didn't necessarily want visiting him too often.

He stood and moved forward. His first few steps were awkward and slow, his later ones sure, and once he was in full mastery of his body and the pain that suffused it, he put on a burst of speed in traditional Jedi fashion, outracing the blaster bolts that tailed him."

This proves that Jacen cannot overcome pain instantly and explains why fight with Luke at the beginning was onesided. Jacen used wines to get some time to regain his composure and after that he is able to seriously batter Luke in return.


Luke wasn't refering to combat. After he killed Lumya, he found out that she wasn't the murderer, which put Luke only into farther depression. As of actual fight with Lumya on opposite Luke performed better against her than before:

"He'd relied on the shoto as an extra weapon in the past to counter the whip's twin elements of matter and energy, but he was flooded with a new confidence that he could take her with just the lightsaber that had always stood between him and darkness."

And how you define "most lethal performance"? I define it as fighting much more aggressively than usually. Fight against Jacen was the most aggressive and he utilized far more dirty techniques than ever before.

Maybe you meant best perfrormance? If yes, then there is absolutely no way to prove, if Luke's past performances were any better than this one.

One of Luke's best performances was against Slayers. Yet, Jacen and Jaina fought them too. Yes, Luke killed more than them but that's rather small difference in performance. But keep in mind that both twins weren't as skilled at the time. Jacen in one of the NJO books stated that he is not particularly good in sabers and never trained as much as Anakin.

Also, I will put accent on Jaina's performance:
"The quartets began to square off with Luke and Jacen, while the larger group formed up opposite Jaina. Seeing that Luke and Jacen were the stronger fighters, the slayers had decided to reserve most of their might for the Jedi they perceived as being the weakest, guessing that Luke and Jacen would always go to Jaina's aid before attempting to reach Shimrra." - this proves that Jaina was hardpressed more than Luke and Jacen, so logically she would kill less as she had to fight more defensively to survive. Moreover, she withdrew from fight right in the middle. Nevertheless, this feat shows that all three are very close in combat skill.

Continue with Jaina. Despite her already demonstrating close to Luke saber performance in YV war, she improved even more. She kept drilling saber skill with Zekk and undergone Mandalorian training in order to confront Jacen. Yet, in final battle she barely won and even with only one hand Jacen still had apper hand in saber fight for the most part:
"A black boot heel came shooting under Jaina's guard, driving hard into her sore ribs. She stifled a cry and circled into the shadows, trying to acclimate her eyes to the darkness because it was impossible to sense Caedus in the Force. He fought to keep his advantage, dancing back and forth behind his crimson blade, anticipating her every move-and making her pay for each step with a painful kick or elbow strike".

Finally this:
"Gaalan struck at Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duelist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn. He would have been too much for a comparatively diffident duelist such as Cilghal, or even Luke as he had been back at Sinkhole Station, at low ebb in physical and mental strength.

But Luke, despite recent exertions, had had time to recover. He parried each of Gaalan's blows, and his ripostes-his blade skittering off Gaalan's and thrusting now at the Sith Lord's face, now at shoulder or knee or torso-came increasingly close to touching flesh. Luke smiled at the man".

Both Jacen and Jaina proved to be far superior to Kyp. He lost fight against single Alpha infected Slayer, while they engaged multiple healthy Slayers and even killed some. Jaina specifically had around 7 Slayers attacking her at the beginning. And Jacen demonstrated more impressive performance against Katarn aided by three JK than Luke against this Sith:
"In one sense, it was a beautiful and brilliant thing to see. The five combatants moved as though they'd been choreographing this event for years and had planned, all along, that the two sides would somehow be even
...
Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation.

They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me". - only because of coordinated team work Katarn lasted as long as he did.

As you see all direct and indirect performance comparison implies that Caedus is on level with Luke.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Arhael
That's not interpretation that's what text says. Yoda caused him to almost fall from platform and Sidious dropped lightsaber as result. That wouldn't happen, if it was on even ground.

Really man? First of all, you said this:



NOWHERE does it say that Sidious dropped his lightsaber in order to NOT fall over the edge. Quit interjecting your flawed interpretation into the text. Also, the simple fact that Yoda nearly caused Sidious to go over the edge indicates that he is the superior duelist.

The_Tempest
Well, to be fair, people do tend to reflexively drop shit when threatened with a terminal vertical experience.

Arhael
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Really man? First of all, you said this:



NOWHERE does it say that Sidious dropped his lightsaber in order to NOT fall over the edge. Quit interjecting your flawed interpretation into the text.
I merely pointed out at the circumstances of the fight and drew conclusion from that. If it qualifies for interpretation, it doesn't change anything. All text specifies is that Yoda cause Sidious to almost fall, it doesn't say that Yoda disarmed him, only that Sidious dropped it. If Yoda disarmed him with his superior skill, text would specify it.

Characters were shown to drop lightsaber as result of being kicked but such assumption doesn't work with Yoda. So falling from platform is the only possible reason.


Wrong. In fight it is common for one character to press advantage at some point and it can go either way depending on circumstances.

At first it was Sidious pressing advantage by killing three Masters and then driving Windu back. Then as Windu breaks window Sidious partially redirects his effort and Windu gains advantage.

At one point Anakin drops lightsiber(or gets disarmed), grabs Kenobi and chokes him as well as nearly kills him with his own lightsaber, then kicks him so hard that Kenobi drops lightsaber as well. In next instant Anakin gets kick in the face and is on his shoulder blades, while Kenobi is above him again with lightsaber. Both ended up being without lightsaber at some point and both were gaining advantage at some point, yet, their skill is equal, neither is superior.

Vader, when fighting Marek, nearly overwhelmed him at one point and Marek used lightning to stand and catch some breath:
"The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain.
...
Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath."

Yet, after that Marek scored several lightsaber hits as well.

As you see advantage switches from one to another time to time. The fact that Yoda at some point managed to drive Sidious back is simply not enough to conclude that he is superior, especially, when in film during saber fight they were even. And even, if both characters are even, inevitably one will get disarmed depending on circumstances. It happened to be Sidious in that case.

DARTH POWER
I see Arhael's point. Sidious was driving Mace back for a good portion of the fight. If that was on a small platform, then chances are Mace would have been overwhelmed.

Same for Anakin vs Obi-Wan.

Environment and circumstances makes a big difference in SW fights. As do the different talents of each individual combatant. Same as real life really.

Visage
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace was driving Sidious back for a good portion of the fight. If that was on a small platform, then chances are Sidious would have been overwhelmed.


Fixed. stick out tongue

Visage
The irony is, aside from Mace noticeably driving Sidious back through most of the fight, when the fight got out to the platform, Sidious was overwhelmed, as Mace had him edged out in speed, there.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by Arhael
Let's recap her feats.

Just 1 year prior to DE Luke fought C'baot and even got overpowered by him, while Mara resisted his combined lightning and TK.

She fought Lord Nyax together with Luke and Tahiri. His strength was such that he could knock Vong off feet with one swing and was driving Luke back. His speed was such that he blitzed Voxin, while for Jedi strike team killing them was a "routine work". His Force power was such that he nearly mind dominated all three and demonstrated far superior TK. And Mara performed as good as Luke against him.

Mara defeated Lumya without use of shoto. Luke was able to do the same only because of desire to avenge Mara.

As you see there are plenty of evidence proving that Mara's combat capabilities are close to Luke. Luke himself had opinion that Mara would kick Jacen's ass.


Hah! Are you implying that Luke's performance was hampered? All evidence suggests opposite.

Luke was angry in that fight. Should I remind you how angry Luke outskilled Vader? Or how anger empowers Force users in general and makes them much more dangerous combatats?

Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been. - Luke took early advantage of his sneak attack and nearly killed Jacen right at the begining. How many characters would be able to sustain elbow to the temple? Add the knee smash into chin followed by lightsaber strike into chest and it becomes miraculous that Jacen survived at all.

Jacen barely recovered from previous attack and Luke does another lethal combo:
Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-


Luke struck again with his lightsaber, using both hands and putting all his strength into the attack, beating his nephew's guard down so far that Jacen's emerald blade bit into his own shoulder. - do you ever remember Luke trying to overpower someone with strength? Fight against Vader is perhaps the only example.

And yet another dirty trick from Luke:
"His blade met Jacen's in a shower of brilliant sparks. Luke freed one hand and drove a finger-strike at Jacen's eyes.

Jacen turned his head, but Luke's little finger scratched across something soft and bulbous. Jacen roared and stumbled away, shaking his head."

And another one:
"He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter."

Never in his life Luke fought so lethally. Never in his life he employed so many dirty tricks. Mara because of Ben almost killed Jacen. Luke fought for exactly the same reason, Ben's life depended on him. The assumption that he didn't fight at his best is simply unsupported.

So how exactly do you imagine Yoda beating Jacen? Luke did it through unarmed combat techniques, which he normally doesn't employ at all and still fight ended in stalemate. Yoda can't do same things cos of his physical limitations. Through pure saber skill? Yoda was unable to defeat Dooku on even ground. Sidious dropped lightsaber himself to prevent falling from platform, on even ground there is no way Sidious would get disarmed by Yoda. Luke is superior to both Dooku and Sidious and Caedus still badly battered him. That's sufficient enough to be above likes of Yoda and Windu.

Yet it has been argued by others on here that Anakin's anger didn't make im stonger against Kenobi... Yet you seem to but supporting such a notion.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi


Yet it has been argued by others on here that Anakin's anger didn't make im stonger against Kenobi... Yet you seem to but supporting such a notion.

He's always supported that notion. I'm coming around to that idea as well. The official site states Anakin felt his power grow as he embraced the dark side.

Kenobi obviously just had the right skill set to deal with Skywalker. But I still think Anakin is the most powerful out of the Dooku, Kenobi and Skywalker trio stick out tongue

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Visage
The irony is, aside from Mace noticeably driving Sidious back through most of the fight, when the fight got out to the platform, Sidious was overwhelmed, as Mace had him edged out in speed, there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_XLDlDWLQ

From 0:10 - 0:30 Palpatine is doing the overpowering. That's 20 seconds.

From 0:40 - 0:45 Mace is doing the overpowering. That's 5 seconds.

At 0:55 Mace is the one who actually comes out on top. Which according to the novel was due to Sidious slowing down near the window ledge. The rest of the fight they looked pretty even.

And all this despite the fact that Sidious had to spend the first few seconds of the fight concentrating on taking out the other Jedi.

Clearly context of how a fight starts and environment in which a fight takes place means a lot in SW.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's always supported that notion. I'm coming around to that idea as well. The official site states Anakin felt his power grow as he embraced the dark side.

Kenobi obviously just had the right skill set to deal with Skywalker. But I still think Anakin is the most powerful out of the Dooku, Kenobi and Skywalker trio stick out tongue

Why weren't you coming around to that idea when Big Daddy KuRupt was going back and forth with you saying it's true? Oh yeah... you're right Kenobi is the better combatant with the better feats stick out tongue

Arhael
Those arguments didn't have any basis, mere lowballing. Anakin did get stronger and there is direct proves for that both in film and novel. In film he demonstrated superior strength by choking Kenobi and driving his hand with lightsaber towards his face. In novel Anakin, also, demonstrated superior strength:
"His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"

Dark power bore down with his grip.

Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.

Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad"

Overpowering Kenobi in stength is even more impressive considering that Opress and Maul couldn't do it combined.

Performance wise Anakin, also, showed himself better than ever. He nearly killed Kenobi with grappling, kicked him twice, second kick even disarmed Kenobi.

In general Anakin alone gave Kenobi much harder time than brothers. Brothers couldn't land a single hit on him.

Moreover, compare visual performance. Anakin attacked Kenobi literally twice faster than Dooku. This fight demonstrates the highest technical level in film.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why weren't you coming around to that idea when Big Daddy KuRupt was going back and forth with you saying it's true?


If you see my arguments at the start of that thread and compare them to what I was saying towards the end you'll see I changed my tune a lot.

Anyway the direct quotes from the official site on the matter are this:

Tapping into the dark side, Anakin found his powers increasing.

and this:

Sidious envisions a galaxy of order and peace, but first, the Jedi must be eliminated. He tasks Vader to do the dark deed, for only then will Vader be so powered by the dark side as to be unstoppable.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Oh yeah... you're right Kenobi is the better combatant with the better feats stick out tongue

Nah out of the trio A>B>C>A trio of Dooku, Kenobi and Skywalker, I'd put Sith Anakin on top.

Simply because he can certainly take some wins against Kenobi.

Whilst Kenobi taking any wins against Dooku is almost impossible.

And Dooku taking wins against Sith Anakin is also pretty unlikely considering his dread at what would happen if Skywalker gave into his full rage.

Visage
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_XLDlDWLQ

From 0:10 - 0:30 Palpatine is doing the overpowering. That's 20 seconds.

From 0:40 - 0:45 Mace is doing the overpowering. That's 5 seconds.
Overpowering? No. Sidious wasn't overpowering anyone.

Overpowering, would mean outdoing someone in a contest of strength/saber-lock.

At that point, Sidious is overwhelming - but not "overpowering" anyone.


The only person doing any physical-overpowering was Mace.

And - when we go from 30 to all the way to 60 Mace Windu is doing both the only actual overpowering and the overwhelming.

- So that's 30 seconds - 10 seconds longer than Sidious, and he beat Sidious.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

At 0:55 Mace is the one who actually comes out on top. Which according to the novel was due to Sidious slowing down near the window ledge. The rest of the fight they looked pretty even.

At 0:55 Mace of course is the one who comes out on top, due to superior speed and skill.

And according to the novel, when they both got out onto the ledge and fought, they both had to slow down their footwork to compensate for the slippery surface.

And there, Mace had could deliver faster cuts and strikes than Sidious, who was slower than Mace.

In the novel, Mace's hands/strikes are faster than Sidious - in the movie, it's also his feet, which is impressive because in real-life swordsmanship, you are cautioned not to throw kicks in a duel, because that is, in reality, a good way to lose a leg.

The fact that Mace can execute a smooth and powerful kick in a place where his footwork should be dramatically-slowed is evidence of great speed and physicality on his part.

Not to mention the fact that in said novel, Mace's speed was 24-swings per second - and the version of Luke that defeated the most powerful version of Sidious later on, had a top speed of only 20-swings per second. (Luke Skywalker during New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force.)

Which means Mace is faster, Period.

And the novel and movie both make it clear that prior to the ledge, Sidious was being driven back, and wasn't capable of striking Mace a single time.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And all this despite the fact that Sidious had to spend the first few seconds of the fight concentrating on taking out the other Jedi.
Clearly context of how a fight starts and environment in which a fight takes place means a lot in SW.

He was able to surprise some Force-gimped Masters, and Mace and Fisto had to be careful that they didn't accidentally bisect one another in the foray.

But once Fisto was done - Mace knew he had all the opportunity and room to sink into Vapaad fully and take Sidious down, which he did.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.