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Who would win in a battle to the death?
Setting - Felucia

It'd be a harder time for Mace than Sidious had, as Mace prefers sabers and they did alright in that area, force being the larger problem, but still, Mace without a doubt wins.

I agree. And if Obi Wan can beat them, so can Mace.

This is an interesting matchup. I believe that Mace is personally above either brother individually. However, unlike with Sidious, Vaapad will not give him as much power to combat the brothers.

He also has only one lightsaber and does not possess Sidious's acrobatics, making it more difficult for him to fight the brothers head on. Could go either way I suppose.

Personally I don't think even Maul on his own will be easy pickings. Both brothers are too much even for Mace Imho.

If this is Clone Wars Mace or RotS Mace, then he destroys both brothers, even quicker than Sidious did.

As Dark siders, the brothers won't be magically immune to Vapaad where Sidious wasn't; and the bleed-off from their power would power Mace sufficiently through the duel.

With speed that edged out Sidious' own and the knowledge and understanding of Shatterpoints, he would also kill the brothers much quicklier than Sidious did.

Add to the fact that whereas Sidious was playing with both brothers, the way a cat toys with mice - Mace would want to dispatch them as soon as possible, and would power and cut through them with his superior speed and skill, taking them both down in under a minute.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Personally I don't think even Maul on his own will be easy pickings. Both brothers are too much even for Mace Imho.

Originally posted by Vensai
This is an interesting matchup. I believe that Mace is personally above either brother individually. However, unlike with Sidious, Vaapad will not give him as much power to combat the brothers.

He also has only one lightsaber and does not possess Sidious's acrobatics, making it more difficult for him to fight the brothers head on. Could go either way I suppose.

If Obi-Wan can beat both brothers, Mace Windu definitely can.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If Obi-Wan can beat both brothers, Mace Windu definitely can.

If he has a second Lightsaber and assuming his Jar Kai skills are as impressive as Obi-Wan's and Sidious's(good chance) then yeah he definitely can.

But realistically it's more likely Maul will be the only one going Jar Kai.

A second lightsaber isn't needed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A second lightsaber isn't needed.

Then there's no point bringing up Obi-Wan's dual saber performance.

Dooku's fight would be the better example to use who according to the official site "barely" had the edge over Ventress and Opress.

Mace Windu may not have the maneuverability Kenobi has with Jar'Kai, but he has way more formidable TK. There is no question in my mind that the all out goes to him. The question is really the sabers only.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then there's no point bringing up Obi-Wan's dual saber performance.

Dooku's fight would be the better example to use who according to the official site "barely" had the edge over Ventress and Opress.

I don't think a second lightsaber is needed either, Mace could keep Savage at bay with his lightsaber skills and Maul at bay with his force powers.
But a second lightsaber would help Mace, ALOT!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku's fight would be the better example to use who according to the official site "barely" had the edge over Ventress and Opress.
I concur.

Though Mace's Shatterpoint-Vaapad combo will push the odds a little bit in his favor. He wins this.

You people are forgetting that with his effective use of Vaapad and Shatterpoint he actually beat Sidious, a much, much more powerful opponent.

Mace, by using these two powerful and unique abilities managed to defeat someone who is his superior in both skill with a lightsaber and Force power. These two brothers are below Mace in both categories. There's nothing to suggest he wouldn't he able to take this.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
You people are forgetting that with his effective use of Vaapad and Shatterpoint he actually beat Sidious, a much, much more powerful opponent.
People overhype these abilities. The gap between Mace and Sidious is not nearly as ginormous as people like to paint in sabers. Back when Dooku was in the order even with Vaapad and Shatterpoints he was able to match him.


Has Vaapad ever been shown to give a powerboost with two opponents? If so then yeah Mace dominates, if not this is a bit closer than you may think. I think Mace'll still win, but it will by no means be a stomp.

This is where A>B>C doesn't quite work and why it was essential to seperate Sidious vs the Brothers fight into the categories of Sabers, Force and All-Out.

Despite what Sidious did to them, both the Zabraks are actually powerful with force tk. Clearly neither of them are on Mace's level, but I highly doubt Mace will be rag dolling them around the way Sidious was. (Anyone's welcome to make the case that he would but I'm just not seeing it).

So it's really going to come down to Sabers. Imo Maul is tough enough on his own in that department. He held his own against Sidious (I know some people think Sidious was holding back blah blah).

But against Both of them, and Mace only using a single Saber? No I personally just don't see him winning at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This is where A>B>C doesn't quite work and why it was essential to seperate Sidious vs the Brothers fight into the categories of Sabers, Force and All-Out.

Despite what Sidious did to them, both the Zabraks are actually powerful with force tk. Clearly neither of them are on Mace's level, but I highly doubt Mace will be rag dolling them around the way Sidious was. (Anyone's welcome to make the case that he would but I'm just not seeing it).

So it's really going to come down to Sabers. Imo Maul is tough enough on his own in that department. He held his own against Sidious (I know some people think Sidious was holding back blah blah).

But against Both of them, and Mace only using a single Saber? No I personally just don't see him winning at all.

He doesn't need to ragdoll them. All he has to do is push one of them away (likely Maul) and then overpower Savage. I think Mace can take down Savage in a good amount of time. And also keep in mind, Mace's swordsmanship is on the level of Tyranus. The same Tyranus who was able to off Kenobi in the midst of dueling skywalker.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He doesn't need to ragdoll them. All he has to do is push one of them away (likely Maul) and then overpower Savage. I think Mace can take down Savage in a good amount of time. And also keep in mind, Mace's swordsmanship is on the level of Tyranus. The same Tyranus who was able to off Kenobi in the midst of dueling skywalker.

True but remember Dooku did struggle against Ventress and Opress. Maul is far greater than either one of them Imo.

And Kenobi seems to have weaker force defenses than the Zabrak brothers. Neither of them will go down that easily.

But yeah I can see Mace force slam either one individually. But would be pretty difficult when they're both all over him in Sabers Imho.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
True but remember Dooku did struggle against Ventress and Opress. Maul is far greater than either one of them Imo.

And Kenobi seems to have weaker force defenses than the Zabrak brothers. Neither of them will go down that easily.

But yeah I can see Mace force slam either one individually. But would be pretty difficult when they're both all over him in Sabers Imho.

This is on Felucia though. You must not forget that Dooku was in an enclosed space pressured by someone physically his superior and another skilled combatant. On Felucia offing one of them would have been way easier.

Something to consider also is Felucia is a dark side nexus.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This is on Felucia though. You must not forget that Dooku was in an enclosed space pressured by someone physically his superior and another skilled combatant. On Felucia offing one of them would have been way easier.

Something to consider also is Felucia is a dark side nexus.

That's what I try to do with my forums, is pick a setting that would be fair to the combatants.
Anyways,
Force Abilities - Mace Windu is better than Maul, IMO Savage=Windu in force abilities.
Lightsaber Combat - Mace Better than both (Seperatley)
So this matchup is about a tie, but I guess it could go either way.

I barely logged in. Yet I still seen this and felt obligated to reply. This is my opinion.

If Mace was to go against them both just saber wise"plus force" he would "eventually win barely" and i mean "barely" This is what I think.

1) "Just sabers" Mace loses, but it's close.
2) "Sabers and Force" Mace wins but barely, just barely.
3) "Straight Force, Mace wins hands down.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then there's no point bringing up Obi-Wan's dual saber performance.

Dooku's fight would be the better example to use who according to the official site "barely" had the edge over Ventress and Opress.

Yeah, but somehow I doubt Mace'll get ragdolled across the room by Opress' first strike.

I'd like to note that right after Savage killed Adi Gallia, Obi Wan was only just able to hold his own against the brothers with a single lightsaber, so maybe this is an indication that people tend to have an easier time against multiple opponents when using 2 sabers.

But then I wonder why don't jedi always have a backup saber?

Originally posted by mnat801
I'd like to note that right after Savage killed Adi Gallia, Obi Wan was only just able to hold his own against the brothers with a single lightsaber, so maybe this is an indication that people tend to have an easier time against multiple opponents when using 2 sabers.

But then I wonder why don't jedi always have a backup saber?

Your right, if there allways so useful, they should allways have 2 sabers.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
You people are forgetting that with his effective use of Vaapad and Shatterpoint he actually beat Sidious, a much, much more powerful opponent.

Mace, by using these two powerful and unique abilities managed to defeat someone who is his superior in both skill with a lightsaber and Force power. These two brothers are below Mace in both categories. There's nothing to suggest he wouldn't he able to take this.



They seem to be forgetting this.

Both brothers combined, are still below Mace in swordsmanship.

Mace would kill them much more quickly than Sidious did, and with moderate difficulty.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, but somehow I doubt Mace'll get ragdolled across the room by Opress' first strike.

True but it's not like Mace will continually be shooting FL at Opress either.

Originally posted by mnat801


But then I wonder why don't jedi always have a backup saber?

Originally posted by Excalibur2776
Your right, if there allways so useful, they should allways have 2 sabers.

Well aside from the fact that the Jedi needs to be skilled at Jar Kai to make use of 2 Sabers, the point is still moot. Because even if Dual Sabers are not more useful it would still make sense for all Jedi to carry a back up Lightsaber. And yet they don't.

I still like to think that Lightsabers are relatively rare and not just handed out like pencils. Hence the whole "This weapon is your life" lecture and the reason Ashoka was freaking out when she lost hers one episode.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
True but it's not like Mace will continually be shooting FL at Opress either.





Well aside from the fact that the Jedi needs to be skilled at Jar Kai to make use of 2 Sabers, the point is still moot. Because even if Dual Sabers are not more useful it would still make sense for all Jedi to carry a back up Lightsaber. And yet they don't.

I still like to think that Lightsabers are relatively rare and not just handed out like pencils. Hence the whole "This weapon is your life" lecture and the reason Ashoka was freaking out when she lost hers one episode.

Good point, lol. But he should still be able to wreck Opress in a lightsaber duel, even with Maul as back-up. Mace is on another level from those two imo.


I think thats it. Each lightsaber requires a crystal that the Jedi iirc carves out themselves and is pretty rare.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Good point, lol. But he should still be able to wreck Opress in a lightsaber duel, even with Maul as back-up. Mace is on another level from those two imo.



True but then Dooku was on another level to Ventress/Opress individually. But both together were pushing him (in close quarters) despite his far superior force powers.

Comparing that to this fight, I'd give Dooku the edge over Mace in Force powers. Whilst Mace is a stronger and more powerful Saber duelist than Dooku, I wouldn't think he's miles above him.

But then there's Maul who is on another level to Opress/Ventress Imo. Maul alone could be a rival for Dooku in pure Saber combat Imho.

How are Dooku's force powers above Mace's?

Also how is Maul "FAR" superior compared to Opress and Ventress?

Mace shows comparable TK powers to Dooku and Opress in "Liberty On Ryloth," obliterating droids with a shockwave, pushing an AT-TE off a cliff, and crushing an AAT tank with a massive door.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Mace shows comparable TK powers to Dooku and Opress in "Liberty On Ryloth," obliterating droids with a shockwave, pushing an AT-TE off a cliff, and crushing an AAT tank with a massive door.
Not to mention his feats from CW mini

It regularly circulated around KMC that the microseries depicted "real Jedi" (Lucas's own words, apparently). And while the show enjoys T-canon status alongside the new one, Filoni's commentary strongly implies that the microseries is disregarded entirely by Lucas.

But, yeah. His feats in the microseries are teh l33t.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It regularly circulated around KMC that the microseries depicted "real Jedi" (Lucas's own words, apparently). And while the show enjoys T-canon status alongside the new one, Filoni's commentary strongly implies that the microseries is disregarded entirely by Lucas.

But, yeah. His feats in the microseries are teh l33t.

So basically to them its Non-Canon?

EDIT

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It regularly circulated around KMC that the microseries depicted "real Jedi" (Lucas's own words, apparently). And while the show enjoys T-canon status alongside the new one, Filoni's commentary strongly implies that the microseries is disregarded entirely by Lucas.
I'm cool with that...though Tartakowsky's series were t3h sh1t

Aside from Windu's perfomance against Sidious, he and Dooku do have comparable feats, but for some reason, I believe Lucas intended for Windu to be above Dooku. I know I can't use that in a vs. forum, but just saying.

As for the thread, I think Windu takes it after a hard fight. If this is Windu with the same amp he received when he fought Sidious, then he stomps.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How are Dooku's force powers above Mace's?

Yoda seems think Dooku is the Jedi student who is most learned in the ways of the Force. But I doubt there's a significant difference between the 2.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Also how is Maul "FAR" superior compared to Opress and Ventress?

This

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc2SF6RuXUw

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duQdkOF2Pes

show Maul>Opress>Ventress.

Plus Maul did much better than Opress against Sidious.


Oh and CW Mini is not T-Canon. And all references to it have been wiped out of the official site.

Yeah, it is speculative. I was basing my opinion off of Lucas's statement that you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious, and Anakin referring to Mace as the powerful one while referring to Yoda as the wise one. But again, it is speculative, but it was the impression I got.

As for Silver's argument, I agree with just about everything he said (except for Sidious being able to blitz Windu as easily as he did the first two masters under normal circumstance. I believe Windu should at least be put up a better fight). What put the icing on the cake of Silver's argument, IMO, was when he explained the context of Lucas's statement when saying Windu "overpowered" Sidious. And yes there is just too much evidents to suggest that Sidious threw the fight; there is just no source to confirm it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, it is speculative. I was basing my opinion off of Lucas's statement that you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious, and Anakin referring to Mace as the powerful one while referring to Yoda as the wise one. But again, it is speculative, but it was the impression I got.

As for Silver's argument, I agree with just about everything he said (except for Sidious being able to blitz Windu as easily as he did the first two masters under normal circumstance. I believe Windu should at least be put up a better fight). What put the icing on the cake of Silver's argument, IMO, was when he explained the context of Lucas's statement when saying Windu "overpowered" Sidious. And yes there is just too much evidents to suggest that Sidious threw the fight; there is just no source to confirm it.

Can I get a link to Silver's argument on the matter please.

I personally think Sidious would defeat Mace with the aid his superior force powers. But I think the circumstances of their ROTS fight lead him and Mace into a pure Lightsaber duel. Which can probably go either way on any given day.

Also looking at the CW series his preferred method of Saber fighting may be Jar Kai with which he might fair a bit better IF that's his preferred choice.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, it is speculative. I was basing my opinion off of Lucas's statement that you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious, and Anakin referring to Mace as the powerful one while referring to Yoda as the wise one. But again, it is speculative, but it was the impression I got.

As for Silver's argument, I agree with just about everything he said (except for Sidious being able to blitz Windu as easily as he did the first two masters under normal circumstance. I believe Windu should at least be put up a better fight). What put the icing on the cake of Silver's argument, IMO, was when he explained the context of Lucas's statement when saying Windu "overpowered" Sidious. And yes there is just too much evidents to suggest that Sidious threw the fight; there is just no source to confirm it.

All out, Windu and Dooku would be close in combat.
I don't think the Brothers have the experience to take on someone like Windu. But in response to Sidious66, he is not getting the same "amp" he got from Sidious's force powers. Sidious's force powers make the Brothers look like newbie padawans.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
People overhype these abilities. The gap between Mace and Sidious is not nearly as ginormous as people like to paint in sabers. Back when Dooku was in the order even with Vaapad and Shatterpoints he was able to match him.


Has Vaapad ever been shown to give a powerboost with two opponents? If so then yeah Mace dominates, if not this is a bit closer than you may think. I think Mace'll still win, but it will by no means be a stomp.

No, people don't overhype them. These abilities are just that efficient. Efficient enough to allow Windu to defeat Sidious one-on-one. No overhype.

And yes, the gap between him and Sidious is not huge, but it is significant. Sidious is the top duelist, and the better combatant overall. Not by a lot, but certainly by a significant margin.

What do you mean 'back when Dooku was in the Order'? Vaapad works especially well against dark siders, not light siders. Dooku was still a Jedi when they dueled. It makes an enormous difference. The fact that Dooku 'was able to match him' back then just shows that's how much of an advantage Vaapad gives Windu against any dark sider, as seen against Sidious.

Oh, and I never said it would be a stomp. I said he would definitely win.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Back when Dooku was in the order even with Vaapad and Shatterpoints he was able to match him.
Pure speculation. Dooku fought a young Mace Windu who might have not even created Vapaad, yet.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Has Vaapad ever been shown to give a powerboost with two opponents?
Why wouldn't it?

Originally posted by CountDooku22
Pure speculation. Dooku fought a young Mace Windu who might have not even created Vapaad, yet.
Padawan Kenobi was stated to have an interest in training in Vapaad. Dooku was in the order well until well after Kenobi attained knighthood. If anything that Mace developed Vaapad in between TPM and AOTC is pure speculation.



A superconducting loop seems to imply two ends two it. I dunno if there can be two superconducting loops at the same time. And Shatterpoint might be confused considering Mace got distracted by Anakin's shatterpoint when he was dueling Sidious.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Padawan Kenobi was stated to have an interest in training in Vapaad. Dooku was in the order well until well after Kenobi attained knighthood. If anything that Mace developed Vaapad in between TPM and AOTC is pure speculation.

Can I get a quote?

I want to make sure the brain-boxes that wrote those texts didn't confuse Vapaad with Juyo.

It's possible that there's a snafu somewhere in the context.

A direct quote for this would be handy.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

A superconducting loop seems to imply two ends two it. I dunno if there can be two superconducting loops at the same time. And Shatterpoint might be confused considering Mace got distracted by Anakin's shatterpoint when he was dueling Sidious.

There are many Shatterpoints - not just one.

He was distracted, because that particular Shatterpoint led to an altered future path.

Separate double-ended superconducting loops could be extended to more than one person - and I haven't seen any material that indicates otherwise.

Originally posted by CountDooku22
Can I get a quote?

I want to make sure the brain-boxes that wrote those texts didn't confuse Vapaad with Juyo.

It's possible that there's a snafu somewhere in the context.

A direct quote for this would be handy.
"Kenobi displayed an early interest in studying Form VII, specifically Mace Windu's Vaapad variant, but Qui-Gon refused to let him study it."-paraphrased.
The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force
Mind you I don't have the direct quote the only version I can find is 100 bucks.






Doth thou have proof of Vaapad being utilized against multiple opponents. I guess it would be logical given Sora Bulq's utilization of Jar'Kai in combination. But then again this same Sora Bulq ended up being mastered by his own darkness. And take in mind that this is on Felucia where the Dark Side will be at its strongest.

Originally posted by Vensai
However, unlike with Sidious, Vaapad will not give him as much power to combat the brothers.

He also has only one lightsaber and does not possess Sidious's acrobatics, making it more difficult for him to fight the brothers head on. Could go either way I suppose.

Why not though? Maul is solely fueled by anger and hate. If Savage is no match for Sidious then he shouldn't be difficult for Mace to dispatch of easily. He just has to separate the two and with his vastly superior Force abilities this shouldn't be too difficult.

How does he not possess Sidious acrobatics? He may not flip around ludicrously like him or Yoda but mastering Vapaad means he is often a moving blur of purple when fighting. After all, he fought Grievous so his speed and ability to combat multiple blades shouldn't be a big issue.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"Kenobi displayed an early interest in studying Form VII, specifically Mace Windu's Vaapad variant, but Qui-Gon refused to let him study it."-paraphrased.
The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force
Mind you I don't have the direct quote the only version I can find is 100 bucks.

I bought a large hardcover copy last fall - I opened it up, cut a large hole in the middle and set it over my toilet seat.

Makes for a great seat-warmer.

It's implied that Mace was not a Master when he and Dooku sparred with each other.

And I doubt pre-Master Mace even created Vapaad at the time.

Though, if someone could prove it, that would be intriguing.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Doth thou have proof of Vaapad being utilized against multiple opponents. I guess it would be logical given Sora Bulq's utilization of Jar'Kai in combination.

Doth thou have any proof that it cannot?

Vapaad has been used against multiple opponents - as far as the Superconducting-loop technique, it essentially absorbs and cycles dark energy. There is no reason at all to believe that it can't be used against multiple opponents.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

But then again this same Sora Bulq ended up being mastered by his own darkness. And take in mind that this is on Felucia where the Dark Side will be at its strongest.

And that might mean something, if this were Sora Bulq.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Why not though? Maul is solely fueled by anger and hate. If Savage is no match for Sidious then he shouldn't be difficult for Mace to dispatch of easily. He just has to separate the two and with his vastly superior Force abilities this shouldn't be too difficult.

How does he not possess Sidious acrobatics? He may not flip around ludicrously like him or Yoda but mastering Vapaad means he is often a moving blur of purple when fighting. After all, he fought Grievous so his speed and ability to combat multiple blades shouldn't be a big issue.

Yeah, I'm not sure where people are getting this "one-saber difficulty" thing from.

They're assuming Mace needs two sabers, to be able to lock blades with them/defend, etc.

If he were in danger of that, they'd carve him open like a Thanksgiving Day Turkey.



- But he's not in danger of that - he doesn't need two sabers. at. all - by any means.

Mace edges out Sidious in speed - and Vapaad does not waste energy with silly acrobatics.

Mace has the sheer speed (24 Swings a second) and skill to easily dodge, evade; cut one brother down, and kill the other.

And because he won't play around like Sidious - the brothers die even quicker this time.

Originally posted by CountDooku22
Yeah, I'm not sure where people are getting this "one-saber difficulty" thing from.They're assuming Mace needs two sabers, to be able to lock blades with them/defend, etc.


From the Dooku fight against Opress and Ventress where he clearly struggled. Oh and the mere fact that even Sidious felt he required 2 Sabers to take on these 2.



Originally posted by CountDooku22
- But he's not in danger of that - he doesn't need two sabers. at. all - by any means.

He does if he wants to defeat these 2 beasts.


Originally posted by CountDooku22
Mace has the sheer speed (24 Swings a second) and skill to easily dodge, evade; cut one brother down, and kill the other.



And what you don't think Maul's incredibly fast too? Go read Shadow Hunter and Saboteur.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then there's no point bringing up Obi-Wan's dual saber performance.
Obi-Wan with two-lightsabers isn't a better duelist than Mace with one.

In any case, Mace kicked Sideous' ass because vapaad allowed him to **** Palpatine's dark side powah; being one the Jedi Order's greatest duelists in its entire history helped a lot too. The same circumstances would give him the win here.

Mace can win.

A grim Jedi Master with an amethyst-bladed lightsaber, Mace Windu was the champion of the Jedi Order, with little tolerance for the failings of the Senate, the arguments of politicians or the opinions of rebellious Jedi.

Source: http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/characters/macewindu/

Brothers don't compare with the true elites of the mythos as apparent from their duel with Sidious.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Obi-Wan with two-lightsabers isn't a better duelist than Mace with one.

I never implied he was. Just that he's more suited to take on multiple combatants.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
In any case, Mace kicked Sideous' ass because vapaad allowed him to **** Palpatine's dark side powah; being one the Jedi Order's greatest duelists in its entire history helped a lot too. The same circumstances would give him the win here.

He was still Sidious's equal in Saber combat. The same Sidious who felt it was more efficient to bring 2 Sabers to his fight against the brothers. The same Sidious who still resorted to his superior force powers to deal with the Brothers.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


Brothers don't compare with the true elites of the mythos as apparent from their duel with Sidious.

Their duel with Sidious went on until Siidous knocked Maul out with a Force Blast. And at the end an angry dual saber wielding Maul even gave Sidious a decent fight on his own.

That Sideous was also toying with the two the entire time before deciding to finishl them shits on the notion that he brought two because he was forced to do so. As well, Sideous didn't have vapaad, which would have been incredibly useful against two dark siders, Savage especially, since he's literally a personification of dark side raaaaage.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
That Sideous was also toying with the two the entire time

I'm not getting into this again. I don't buy that Sidious wasn't "trying" to defeat them just because he was laughing. He laughed loads at Yoda too. The official site says that he saw Maul as "A rival to be destroyed" and that he became a whirlwind of destruction.

Dave Filoni also confirms that Opress put up a better fight against Sidious than the Jedi Council "meaning Fisto, Tiin and Kolar."

So I'm only going to argue on the basis that the fight was exactly how it was shown.

What does Maul's escapades within the Galaxy have to do with how much of a fight he put up against Sideous in a duel?

How is "whirlwind of destruction", which is a description of his combat prowess, an indication of the effort he had to expend to win?

How is their effort compared to those three relevant at all, considering Sideous killed the three of them in about three seconds?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yoda seems think Dooku is the Jedi student who is most learned in the ways of the Force. But I doubt there's a significant difference between the 2.



This

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc2SF6RuXUw

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duQdkOF2Pes

show Maul>Opress>Ventress.

Plus Maul did much better than Opress against Sidious.


Oh and CW Mini is not T-Canon. And all references to it have been wiped out of the official site.

Wait.. The clone wars tv series isn't G Canon anymore?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Wait.. The clone wars tv series isn't G Canon anymore?

I dunno about that, but it is still referenced in the ROTS DVD special editions. So its still some form of canon.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Wait.. The clone wars tv series isn't G Canon anymore?

The 2003 mini-series?

It's not canon to Lucas anymore. And all references to it have been wiped out of the official site and replaced with the new series. But what Lucas considers canon is the highest form of canon even in the EU.

But it's still C-Canon to the EU I believe.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
From the Dooku fight against Opress and Ventress where he clearly struggled.

Mace is superior to Dooku and has a different approach to combat, also.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Oh and the mere fact that even Sidious felt he required 2 Sabers to take on these 2.

He only needed one for Yoda. I doubt the two brothers on there own equal Yoda.

As well as the fact that he was only playing with them.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

He does if he wants to defeat these 2 beasts.

He only needed one saber, to defeat the man who destroyed them.

He doesn't need a second saber.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And what you don't think Maul's incredibly fast too? Go read Shadow Hunter and Saboteur.

Read it. He's not 24-Swings a second-fast.

Split, imo.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

But it's still C-Canon

Ah, good to know.

Star Wars.com doesn't seem to have it listed in it's databanks - but then again Star Wars.com doesn't have half the planets or less in the SW-universe listed either, so if we take that at face value, then planets like Ruusan and Concord Dawn don't exist, either.

SW.com is more of a corporate-fan-site than anything - and not a legit database.

Wookieepedia treats all of the planets in the Star Wars Universe as if they exist, so they're a legitimately-functioning database.

And curiously enough, it's also jam-packed with 03' Clone Wars articles. So it appears to be alive and well.

And Canon is canon.

Split??? Stick to comics my comic book friend!! Mace wins a clear decisive victory.. at worst 9/10

Originally posted by -Pr-
Split, imo.

How is this a split?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Split??? Stick to comics my comic book friend!! Mace wins a clear decisive victory.. at worst 9/10

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Split??? Stick to comics my comic book friend!! Mace wins a clear decisive victory.. at worst 9/10

9/10? Against Both Brothers together? Are you kidding me?

Pr seems to know more than you my friend.

Originally posted by CountDooku22
Ah, good to know.

I'm assuming. Don't take my word on that.

Originally posted by CountDooku22
Star Wars.com doesn't seem to have it listed in it's databanks - but then again Star Wars.com doesn't have half the planets or less in the SW-universe listed either, so if we take that at face value, then planets like Ruusan and Concord Dawn don't exist, either.

It's not got EU stuff. But it used to have references to the CWmini but they have been wiped out.

Originally posted by CountDooku22
SW.com is more of a corporate-fan-site than anything - and not a legit database.

It's the legit source for the whole world which Lucas considers canon.



Originally posted by CountDooku22
And Canon is canon.

Yes but with any inconsistencies or contradictions Lucas Canon over rights any lower canon.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm assuming.

I'm sensing that's going to be a common theme with you, from now on.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

It's not got EU stuff. But it used to have references to the CWmini but they have been wiped out.

Mhm.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

It's the legit source for the whole world which Lucas considers canon.

I'm pretty sure Lucas considers a lot of the planets not listed there, as Canon.

It's not a "legit source" of anything, seeing as how it's functionally-incomplete.

It's just an official fansite.

But Wookieepedia is complete and also more up to date.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Yes but with any inconsistencies or contradictions Lucas Canon over rights any lower canon.

"Overrides", you mean.

And for the most part, the other types of general Canon, do not override the G-Canon sources.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
9/10? Against Both Brothers together? Are you kidding me?

Pr seems to know more than you my friend.

I honestly don't get your line of thinking here... Mace BEAT the person who utterly tooled these two with relative ease. Mace is better than OBI, who also held his own against these two in their encounter. So what feats of Maul and Savage beating WHO.. gives you the impression they have a chance against Mace. Somebody who can employ vaapad and shatterpoint.. something Sids and Obi coulnd't do.. and still beat the two or held his own. Tell me who they have beaten that gives you this impression.

It seems know more about comics than star wars vs. matches big buddy.

Originally posted by CountDooku22






I'm pretty sure Lucas considers a lot of the planets not listed there, as Canon.

It's not a "legit source" of anything, seeing as how it's functionally-incomplete.

It's just an official fansite.

But Wookieepedia is complete and also more up to date.









"Overrides", you mean.

And for the most part, the other types of general Canon, do not override the G-Canon sources.

Originally posted by Excalibur2776

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I honestly don't get your line of thinking here... Mace BEAT the person who utterly tooled these two with relative ease. Mace is better than OBI, who also held his own against these two in their encounter. So what feats of Maul and Savage beating WHO.. gives you the impression they have a chance against Mace. Somebody who can employ vaapad and shatterpoint.. something Sids and Obi coulnd't do.. and still beat the two or held his own. Tell me who they have beaten that gives you this impression.

It seems know more about comics than star wars vs. matches big buddy.

Mace is on another level just like Sidious. He wins. Just without the lightning.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I honestly don't get your line of thinking here... Mace BEAT the person who utterly tooled these two with relative ease. Mace is better than OBI, who also held his own against these two in their encounter. So what feats of Maul and Savage beating WHO.. gives you the impression they have a chance against Mace. Somebody who can employ vaapad and shatterpoint.. something Sids and Obi coulnd't do.. and still beat the two or held his own. Tell me who they have beaten that gives you this impression.

It seems know more about comics than star wars vs. matches big buddy.

As I was just explaining to SWL A>B>C doesn't work very well in Star Wars. That's especially the case in ROTS. So we have to split these fights into Sabers, Force and All-Out. As well as the context of the fights:

1.Kenobi was clearly no match for both brothers with a single Saber. With 2 he was able to fight off both and even defeat one of them.

2.Sidious also tooled the brothers with the use of 2 Sabers AND his far superior Force TK Powers. Force powers that are above Mace's.
In fact Sidious never beat both brothers together without the use of his Force TK Powers.

3. Maul actually held his own in the Saber fight against the whole time. In fact in the last fight he really gave Sidious a run for his money (in Sabers) all on his own.


Now having said all that IF you give Mace 2 Sabers to fight off both opponents and assuming his Jar Kai skills are as impressive as Sidiou's then yes I'll give him the win. (Although even then I wouldn't give him 9/10).

But in a standard fight where he has just the 1 Saber to fight them both. And knowing he doesn't have Sidious's command of the Force to just easily pinn them both and throw them both around...

In those circumstances I have a very very hard time giving Mace a majority here. Especially looking at how Dooku struggled against Ventress and Opress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

3. Maul actually held his own in the Saber fight against the whole time. In fact in the last fight he really gave Sidious a run for his money (in Sabers) all on his own.


No, he didn't. The episode bares out what Filoni said: Sidious dominated the entire time. Maul and Savage literally never stood a chance. This has been discussed at length in that thread.

While Sidious may have drawn on the Force to make for such an easy victory, the only time he used the Force directly against the brothers was to toy with them (speaking to what you said above about him using the Force).

Originally posted by Ascendancy
No, he didn't.

The episode bares out what Filoni said: Sidious dominated the entire time. Maul and Savage literally never stood a chance. This has been discussed at length in that thread.

Yes because they were hopelessly outmatched in Force powers. One need only watch the fight to see the 2 of them combined were not hopelessly outmatched in Sabers.

Filoni only talked about the all out. He never seperated the fight into Sabers, Force and All-Out.

This has been explained to you many times. Point to me the part where he Saber stomped them both together.

Heck just point out the part where he Saber Stomped Maul.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
While Sidious may have drawn on the Force to make for such an easy victory, the only time he used the Force directly against the brothers was to toy with them (speaking to what you said above about him using the Force).

It's nice living in denial isn't it? Every time he gained a huge advantage it was through Force powers.

At the beginning of the fight when he was crushing them with the Force.

When Opress knocked him off the balcony he resorted to using the Force to knock them both down with him.

When he seperated Maul from the fight with a Force Blast so he could stomp them both One on One.

Originally posted by CountDooku22


I'm pretty sure Lucas considers a lot of the planets not listed there, as Canon.

It's not a "legit source" of anything, seeing as how it's functionally-incomplete.

It's just an official fansite.

But Wookieepedia is complete and also more up to date.




Well the Bios on the official site has a link to their wooki bio for a more in depth EU take. So that's something I guess.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As I was just explaining to SWL A>B>C doesn't work very well in Star Wars. That's especially the case in ROTS. So we have to split these fights into Sabers, Force and All-Out. As well as the context of the fights:

1.Kenobi was clearly no match for both brothers with a single Saber. With 2 he was able to fight off both and even defeat one of them.

2.Sidious also tooled the brothers with the use of 2 Sabers AND his far superior Force TK Powers. Force powers that are above Mace's.
In fact Sidious never beat both brothers together without the use of his Force TK Powers.

3. Maul actually held his own in the Saber fight against the whole time. In fact in the last fight he really gave Sidious a run for his money (in Sabers) all on his own.


Now having said all that IF you give Mace 2 Sabers to fight off both opponents and assuming his Jar Kai skills are as impressive as Sidiou's then yes I'll give him the win. (Although even then I wouldn't give him 9/10).

But in a standard fight where he has just the 1 Saber to fight them both. And knowing he doesn't have Sidious's command of the Force to just easily pinn them both and throw them both around...

In those circumstances I have a very very hard time giving Mace a majority here. Especially looking at how Dooku struggled against Ventress and Opress.

This makes no sense though Darth and I believe you know it. It seems you have a man crush on this pair, and can't seem to seperate yourself from said crush.

Do you believe Kenobi can beat Mace with 2 sabers and Mace only have 1? I believe Mace wins.... and thus it isn't needed for him to have 2 sabers. He's already better than a person who held his own with two sabers.

You keep also mentioning Sids force powers and how that got him the victory and act like Mace doesn't have force powers of his own. He has impressive TK himself. Do you place Mace's TK above that of Maul or Savage? I do, and thus Mace would also enjoy a force powers advantage. But regardless, let's say he doesn't enjoy an advantage sids did. You're forgetting that Mace has OTHER advantages that sids doesn't... i.e. Shatterpoint and Vaapad. These are JUST as big an advantage in fighting these two and sids force power advantage.. which IMO is minimal when it comes to TK.

This has nothing to do with ABC logic and everything to do with Mace is plain superior in virtually ever way.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This makes no sense though Darth and I believe you know it. It seems you have a man crush on this pair, and can't seem to seperate yourself from said crush.

Ok. You have a man crush on Mace. See how that works!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Do you believe Kenobi can beat Mace with 2 sabers and Mace only have 1?

No. But he's better suited to take on TWO Lightsaber wielding opponents with 2 Blades than Mace is with 1 Blade.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I believe Mace wins.... and thus it isn't needed for him to have 2 sabers. He's already better than a person who held his own with two sabers.

Again where's the evidence? Even Sidious fought them both with 2 Blades. Dooku was clearly challenged when fighting a much less powerful duo(Opress and Ventress) with only 1 Blade.

And yet we KNOW that Kenobi is no match for Count Dooku at all (in an all out).

So clearly the 2 Sabers aid in taking on multiple opponents. And these 2 Opponents are not a couple of weaklings that Mace can just Force crush or fend them both off one handed.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You keep also mentioning Sids force powers and how that got him the victory and act like Mace doesn't have force powers of his own. He has impressive TK himself. Do you place Mace's TK above that of Maul or Savage? I do, and thus Mace would also enjoy a force powers advantage.


Mace has better force powers, but these 2 have both also shown some Beastly Force TK. And there's 2 of them! He might get in the odd Force push, but he certainly won't be easily throwing them around the way Sidious did. And I doubt he'll be knocking Maul out with One Force push.

Besides with just 1 Damn Saber they're going to be all over him and he won't get a chance to do even that.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
But regardless, let's say he doesn't enjoy an advantage sids did. You're forgetting that Mace has OTHER advantages that sids doesn't... i.e. Shatterpoint and Vaapad. These are JUST as big an advantage in fighting these two and sids force power advantage.. which IMO is minimal when it comes to TK.

He had those advantages against Sidious. Vapaad made him Sids equal. Shatterpoint gave him the edge. What gives Sid the huge edge over Mace against these 2 though (apart from his Superior Force TK Powers) is his Exceptional Jar Kai abilities.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This has nothing to do with ABC logic and everything to do with Mace is plain superior in virtually ever way.

He's superior to Maul in one on one in every way no doubt. He would plain out stomp Opress One on One.

But fending off both of them is a totally different game. Maul even by himself isn't easy pickings. He can hold his own in Sabers. You know he's also completely Mastered Form 7 right? The Juyo Variant.

Do you have any proof that Kenobi NEEDED two blades? Because I picked up a bat to kick somebody's ass.. doesn't mean I needed the bat to kick somebody ass. This applies to Sids and Kenobi... Do you have any narration stating they needed two because they were going to lose with one? If not, that point is moot.

Umm actually these two ARE opponents that Mace can do just that.. DId you forget that Mace is even faster than Sids... The same Sids who blitzed 3 jedi masters before they could react? Yeah that puts hiim considerably ahead of this duo in speed and exactly why he doens't need two sabers.

Of course he doesn't need to force push.. he can just use his superior speed.. superior skill.. superior form of Vaapad and shatterpoint to defeat them.. he doesn't even need TK. The point is, his TK is superior to either of these two and is just another asset that puts Mace over the top here.

Now, for YOUR proof... Who has this duo beaten that is on the level of Mace? Shit, who has this duo beaten that is even remotely impressive?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The point is, his TK is superior to either of these two and is just another asset that puts Mace over the top here.

According to?

"Liberty On Ryloth,".. Micro/Mini series and shattepoint Novel?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well the Bios on the official site has a link to their wooki bio for a more in depth EU take. So that's something I guess.

If George Lucas/Leeland Chee has authorized the official site, to use Wookieepedia as a source for Star Wars material, that means Lucas/Chee, considers Wookieepedia by their own standards, to be officially taken as a source.

I'll remember this.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Do you have any proof that Kenobi NEEDED two blades? Because I picked up a bat to kick somebody's ass.. doesn't mean I needed the bat to kick somebody ass. This applies to Sids and Kenobi... Do you have any narration stating they needed two because they were going to lose with one? If not, that point is moot.
Kenobi with single saber only passively defended against them constantly moving backward. With two sabers he demonstrated far better performance. The most obvious advantage of Jarkai is that practitioner can block two attacks from different sides simultaneously. Brothers surrounded Sidious and attacked from both sides. But Sidious he had two sabers, he blocked both attacks and had saber lock with both of them. Both Kenobi and Sidious could make offensive moves because of Jarkai. In comparison Dooku with one lightsaber makes no offensive moves, heavily relies on the Force and constantly gives ground.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
"Liberty On Ryloth,".. Micro/Mini series and shattepoint Novel?

Opress has similar feats to Mace's "Liberty On Ryloth," CW Mini greatly exaggerated force powers so it's not fair to compare to characters who weren't even in that series.

However I do believe Mace's Force TK is superior to Maul/Opress's simply because Sidious seemingly wasn't able to easily subdue him with the Force.

Having said that I doubt he leaps and bounds ahead of the Brothers in this department considering their own feats. And he certainly won't be dominating them both together.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Do you have any proof that Kenobi NEEDED two blades? Because I picked up a bat to kick somebody's ass.. doesn't mean I needed the bat to kick somebody ass. This applies to Sids and Kenobi... Do you have any narration stating they needed two because they were going to lose with one? If not, that point is moot.

Your really stretching it here KT. The point was made pretty obvious this series. Especially in the episode where Kenobi did just that.

He was barely besting Maul with 1 Saber in their one on one in the same damn episode!

He tries fending off Both Brothers with 1 Saber but ran away.. He specifically grabbed Adi's Saber before he ran. What was so important to grab her Saber there and then?

Maul says "Your no macth for us both," then Kenobi ignited 2 Sabers and says "You are Mistaken". That can not be made more clear.

Lastly it's for you to prove that 2 Sabers is Kenobi's preferred style. Otherwise why would he specifically use 2 when he's in for the fight off his life against 2 Opponents.

The episode made it plenty clear. Don't grasp on this point. If Kenobi could have fought them both with just his own Saber, then he would have done just that.

For the record this is how Obi-Wan does with 1 Saber against both brothers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72l2PamTNb4

At 1:25. He knew he couldn't just flip between both brothers trying to fight them with 1 Saber. Being in the middle of them, just keeping an eye out for Maul got him disarmed.

So don't grasp at this point. It's been made plenty clear.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Umm actually these two ARE opponents that Mace can do just that.. DId you forget that Mace is even faster than Sids...
The same Sids who blitzed 3 jedi masters before they could react? Yeah that puts hiim considerably ahead of this duo in speed and exactly why he doens't need two sabers.

Mace has never been said to be faster than Sids. At best he's as fast as the same Sidious who used 2 Sabers to fight both brothers.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Of course he doesn't need to force push.. he can just use his superior speed.. superior skill.. superior form of Vaapad and shatterpoint to defeat them.. he doesn't even need TK. The point is, his TK is superior to either of these two and is just another asset that puts Mace over the top here.

All that skill and speed gave him just the edge over Sidious in Sabers. The same Sidious who used 2 Sabers and exceptional Jar Kai skills and acrobatics to fight off both brothers.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Now, for YOUR proof... Who has this duo beaten that is on the level of Mace? Shit, who has this duo beaten that is even remotely impressive?

If you want to be black and white about who they've beaten, then they've beaten Kenobi and Ventress together. You think Mace would beat Kenobi and Ventress together 9/10?

But the more relevant comparison is their fight with Sids who is pretty much Mace's equal in Sabers. But superior to Mace in the Force. And even Sids used 2 Sabers to fight them both off.

Maul held his own the whole Saber fight against even Sids.

An Angry Dual Saber wielding Maul on his own gave even Sids a run for his money in that last Saber fight.

I wouldn't describe it like that. Kenobi was just demonstrating his typical Soresu style - passive defence and giving ground. Word "barely" doesn't really fit.

Originally posted by Arhael
I wouldn't describe it like that. Kenobi was just demonstrating his typical Soresu style - passive defence and giving ground. Word "barely" doesn't really fit.

You got my point though.

He was besting Maul but it's not like he was stomping him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your really stretching it here KT. The point was made pretty obvious this series. Especially in the episode where Kenobi did just that.

He was barely besting Maul with 1 Saber in their one on one in the same damn episode!

He tries fending off Both Brothers with 1 Saber but ran away.. He specifically grabbed Adi's Saber before he ran. What was so important to grab her Saber there and then?

Maul says "Your no macth for us both," then Kenobi ignited 2 Sabers and says "You are Mistaken". That can not be made more clear.

Lastly it's for you to prove that 2 Sabers is Kenobi's preferred style. Otherwise why would he specifically use 2 when he's in for the fight off his life against 2 Opponents.

The episode made it plenty clear. Don't grasp on this point. If Kenobi could have fought them both with just his own Saber, then he would have done just that.

For the record this is how Obi-Wan does with 1 Saber against both brothers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72l2PamTNb4

At 1:25. He knew he couldn't just flip between both brothers trying to fight them with 1 Saber. Being in the middle of them, just keeping an eye out for Maul got him disarmed.

So don't grasp at this point. It's been made plenty clear.



Mace has never been said to be faster than Sids. At best he's as fast as the same Sidious who used 2 Sabers to fight both brothers.





All that skill and speed gave him just the edge over Sidious in Sabers. The same Sidious who used 2 Sabers and exceptional Jar Kai skills and acrobatics to fight off both brothers.





If you want to be black and white about who they've beaten, then they've beaten Kenobi and Ventress together. You think Mace would beat Kenobi and Ventress together 9/10?

But the more relevant comparison is their fight with Sids who is pretty much Mace's equal in Sabers. But superior to Mace in the Force. And even Sids used 2 Sabers to fight them both off.

Maul held his own the whole Saber fight against even Sids.

An Angry Dual Saber wielding Maul on his own gave even Sids a run for his money in that last Saber fight.

I won't belabor the point buddy, but the point still stands on its merit anyways. There is ZERO proof Kenobi needed two lightsabers to beat the Maul Brothers... Just as there is no proof Sids needed two.. in fact... we know he didn't. Point being, Mace doesn't need two sabers.. just like Kenobi (fought both of them off with one) didn't need two.

So they haven't beaten anybody of note really then? Okay I was just making sure I wasn't missing a fight or something. By feats Mace wins correct? So what do we have on the side of the brothers that gives you a little idea they win.. ummmm.. ummmm.. THE HAVE TWO SABERS TO MACE's ONE... Ummm nah, not good enough.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I won't belabor the point buddy, but the point still stands on its merit anyways. There is ZERO proof Kenobi needed two lightsabers to beat the Maul Brothers...

I just posted you a damn video clip of where he got STOMPED when forced to face both brothers with a Single Lightsaber.

Even in the Same damn episode where he beat the Brothers, he fled from them when he was facing them with One, AND specifically grabbed Adi's Lightsaber before he fled.

And when Maul said he's no match for them BOTH, Kenobi ignited BOTH Sabers before he says "You are Mistaken."

You have a strange definition of Zero evidence.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Just as there is no proof Sids needed two.. in fact... we know he didn't. Point being, Mace doesn't need two sabers.. just like Kenobi (fought both of them off with one) didn't need two.



If Sidious and Kenobi could have won with a single Saber then they should have proven it by doing just that! But they didn't. The writers specifically had those defeats taking place with 2 Sabers.

Think about it!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So they haven't beaten anybody of note really then? Okay I was just making sure I wasn't missing a fight or something.


Well Maul himself completely stomped Opress, who in turn Battered Ventress. So Maul and Opress are clearly a much bigger threat than the duo Dooku faced- Ventress and Opress.

If those 2 challenged him what do you think Maul and Opress would do to him? And guess what? Dooku was limited to fighting with a Single Saber in that fight.

Any of this making sense to you yet?

Contrary to common belief the difference between Mace and Dooku is not that large.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
By feats Mace wins correct? So what do we have on the side of the brothers that gives you a little idea they win.. ummmm.. ummmm.. THE HAVE TWO SABERS TO MACE's ONE... Ummm nah, not good enough.

Sidious beat the duo with 2 Sabers and Far superior force powers to what Mace has.

So I'm sorry but you don't just get to come in here and say "Lol Mace stomps every time because Sidious did."

You have to prove it. Which you haven't done. At all.

For me, the two sabers were about symmetry more than anything else. And an excuse to show something cool, also.

Originally posted by -Pr-
For me, the two sabers were about symmetry more than anything else. And an excuse to show something cool, also.

Well yeah they obviously wanted cool looking fights.

And I think the symmetry thing also equates to the Combatant keeping proper balance when fighting off 2 Opponents on either side of him.

When the skill gap isn't very large, sure. With someone like Windu though, who is supposed to be streets ahead of either man, I can't imagine him feeling like he's at a disadvantage with only one lightsaber. That and his force abilities.

Originally posted by -Pr-
When the skill gap isn't very large, sure. With someone like Windu though, who is supposed to be streets ahead of either man, I can't imagine him feeling like he's at a disadvantage with only one lightsaber. That and his force abilities.

I just think the better comparison is Dooku vs Opress & Ventress. As Dooku was forced to fight them both off with 1 Blade(he never actually uses 2).

The gap between Dooku and Mace isn't that large Imho. Whilst the gap between Maul and Ventress is likely much larger.

And I'm not sure how much help Mace's force abilities will be against these 2 who both actually have some beastly feats themselves.

He's better then either brother for sure. But I doubt he'll be tossing them both around the way Sidious was. Or knocking Maul out with a single force push. And he obviously won't be holding Opress at bay with Lightning like Dooku was.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I just posted you a damn video clip of where he got STOMPED when forced to face both brothers with a Single Lightsaber.

Even in the Same damn episode where he beat the Brothers, he fled from them when he was facing them with One, AND specifically grabbed Adi's Lightsaber before he fled.

And when Maul said he's no match for them BOTH, Kenobi ignited BOTH Sabers before he says "You are Mistaken."

You have a strange definition of Zero evidence.



If Sidious and Kenobi could have won with a single Saber then they should have proven it by doing just that! But they didn't. The writers specifically had those defeats taking place with 2 Sabers.

Think about it!




Well Maul himself completely stomped Opress, who in turn Battered Ventress. So Maul and Opress are clearly a much bigger threat than the duo Dooku faced- Ventress and Opress.

If those 2 challenged him what do you think Maul and Opress would do to him? And guess what? Dooku was limited to fighting with a Single Saber in that fight.

Any of this making sense to you yet?

Contrary to common belief the difference between Mace and Dooku is not that large.



Sidious beat the duo with 2 Sabers and Far superior force powers to what Mace has.

So I'm sorry but you don't just get to come in here and say "Lol Mace stomps every time because Sidious did."

You have to prove it. Which you haven't done. At all.

Come on buddy.. you're better than this... Let's explain the PLAIN facts here...

Kenobi WAS able to defend himself and NOT be killed with ONE saber correct? So if Kenobi can defend himself without getting killed with one saber... Mace can do ever better right?

Kenobi was able to defeat both brothers with two sabers.. but there is ZERO proof he NEEDED two sabers to do so. Him not winning with one.. is just that.. he just wasn't able to win at that point. As we know Kenobi's style is to give ground and fight on the defensive till the opponent gets tired or makes a mistake. Thus, it's perfectly plausible that Kenobi could've eventually beaten both brothers with one saber.

We KNOW Sids didn't need two sabers to beat them... Shit he ddn't even need ONE saber. He has the force powers to pwn them without them even getting near them. So it's a mistake to even think he needed two sabers let alone one. He need no sabers if we're being brutally honest here. A sids fighting all out needs none. MACE is close to that level. Sure, he doesn't have the force powers of Sids.. but he's better in the force than the brothers and better in sabers than the brothers.

He also doesn't have a retreating waiting for an opening style like Kenobi.. Which means he'll go for the kill as quick and easily as possible and try and finish it quick. So what we have is...

Kenobi able to fight both brothers with one saber. Not win, but hold his own and possibly win down the road.

We have sids able to beat both brothers with zero sabers even needed.

So, we'll say Mace fights somewhere between them.. i.e. one saber is all that is needed.

Your whole line if thinking is illogical as well buddy. IF he was able to beat him that way he would've. That doesn't work in movies or comics. That is like saying Magneto couldn't kill Wolv or Storm or Rogue with mere gestures or throwing hundreds of objects at him.. cause IF HE COULD he would've. NO.. JUST NO.. WE KNOW he could do just that.. but then there would be no movie. You can't asume your own conclusion and absent of proof isn't proof. Two fallacies you're trying to pedal here. Come on big Darth.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Come on buddy.. you're better than this... Let's explain the PLAIN facts here...

Kenobi WAS able to defend himself and NOT be killed with ONE saber correct? So if Kenobi can defend himself without getting killed with one saber... Mace can do ever better right?

You do realize Kenobi is the Master of the most Defensive Form right?

Also I'm sure Mace could do that for a while with both Opponents right in front of him. But the chances are they're going to surround him from either side pretty soon into the fight.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Kenobi was able to defeat both brothers with two sabers.. but there is ZERO proof he NEEDED two sabers to do so.

So why did he use 2 when it's his style to use 1? Please answer this.

Was he just showing off? Did he just want to look cool? What was his reason.

And I've provided proof. He's faced both brothers TWICE before with a Single saber. The first time he got completely stomped. The second time he ran for his life.

Please explain to me why he was only able to defeat them with 2 Sabers. And why he switched styles from 1 Saber to 2 when in for the fight of his life.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Him not winning with one.. is just that.. he just wasn't able to win at that point. As we know Kenobi's style is to give ground and fight on the defensive till the opponent gets tired or makes a mistake. Thus, it's perfectly plausible that Kenobi could've eventually beaten both brothers with one saber.



Even if this is true (which I don't believe it is) how can you deny that 2 Sabers helped him. Going from "Plausible to eventually beating them both," to "Stomping one of them whilst besting the other in under a minute."

You don't think that's a huge difference?

But I don't buy it, simply because Even Sidious didn't exactly "Saber" stomp both brothers together. And even Sidious CHOSE to use 2 Sabers when fighting them both.

I don't know why people can't see this. The indication intended is perfectly clear in those episodes.

Either give a Reasonable explantaion on why BOTH Kenobi and Sidious chose to face both Brothers wielding Dual Sabers, or stop arguing the point.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I just think the better comparison is Dooku vs Opress & Ventress. As Dooku was forced to fight them both off with 1 Blade(he never actually uses 2).

The gap between Dooku and Mace isn't that large Imho. Whilst the gap between Maul and Ventress is likely much larger.

And I'm not sure how much help Mace's force abilities will be against these 2 who both actually have some beastly feats themselves.

He's better then either brother for sure. But I doubt he'll be tossing them both around the way Sidious was. Or knocking Maul out with a single force push. And he obviously won't be holding Opress at bay with Lightning like Dooku was.

I don't know if anything they did compares to Mace vs the droid army in the CW show.

Or is that not considered canon any longer?

Mace is around Dooku level, I agree, but I think Ventress isn't that far away from Maul. Her and Obi-Wan did a decent job against the brothers when they fought on that ship.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You do realize Kenobi is the Master of the most Defensive Form right?

Also I'm sure Mace could do that for a while with both Opponents right in front of him. But the chances are they're going to surround him from either side pretty soon into the fight.



So why did he use 2 when it's his style to use 1? Please answer this.

Was he just showing off? Did he just want to look cool? What was his reason.

And I've provided proof. He's faced both brothers TWICE before with a Single saber. The first time he got completely stomped. The second time he ran for his life.

Please explain to me why he was only able to defeat them with 2 Sabers. And why he switched styles from 1 Saber to 2 when in for the fight of his life.



Even if this is true (which I don't believe it is) how can you deny that 2 Sabers helped him. Going from "Plausible to eventually beating them both," to "Stomping one of them whilst besting the other in under a minute."

You don't think that's a huge difference?

But I don't buy it, simply because Even Sidious didn't exactly "Saber" stomp both brothers together. And even Sidious CHOSE to use 2 Sabers when fighting them both.

I don't know why people can't see this. The indication intended is perfectly clear in those episodes.

Either give a Reasonable explantaion on why BOTH Kenobi and Sidious chose to face both Brothers wielding Dual Sabers, or stop arguing the point.

tbh, I don't think that's proof that he needed two sabers to fight them. After all, this is the same guy who regularly fights Grievous and Ventress.

So, DP.

You've decided to ignore the fact that Mace has Shatterpoint and Vaapad.

How sad.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
So, DP.

You've decided to ignore the fact that Mace has Shatterpoint and Vaapad.

How sad.

Ok then your ignoring how Maul has completely mastered Juyo and how his combat skills have always been said to be unrivaled.

How very sad indeed.

Vapaad made him Sidious's equal. And since Sidious wasn't exactly Saber Stomping both brothers together, I'm not sure why I should believe that Mace will when he's restricted to 1 Saber.

Shatterpoint has never been a guaranteed victory.

Believe it or not, Mace had both Vapaad and Shatterpoint at the time when a less powerful Dooku used to outspar him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You do realize Kenobi is the Master of the most Defensive Form right?

Also I'm sure Mace could do that for a while with both Opponents right in front of him. But the chances are they're going to surround him from either side pretty soon into the fight.



So why did he use 2 when it's his style to use 1? Please answer this.

Was he just showing off? Did he just want to look cool? What was his reason.

And I've provided proof. He's faced both brothers TWICE before with a Single saber. The first time he got completely stomped. The second time he ran for his life.

Please explain to me why he was only able to defeat them with 2 Sabers. And why he switched styles from 1 Saber to 2 when in for the fight of his life.



Even if this is true (which I don't believe it is) how can you deny that 2 Sabers helped him. Going from "Plausible to eventually beating them both," to "Stomping one of them whilst besting the other in under a minute."

You don't think that's a huge difference?

But I don't buy it, simply because Even Sidious didn't exactly "Saber" stomp both brothers together. And even Sidious CHOSE to use 2 Sabers when fighting them both.

I don't know why people can't see this. The indication intended is perfectly clear in those episodes.

Either give a Reasonable explantaion on why BOTH Kenobi and Sidious chose to face both Brothers wielding Dual Sabers, or stop arguing the point.

The chances of that happening are no greater than Mace killng one of them very quickly thanks to Shatterpoint and Vaapad... That is just as likely as him being surrounded.

I think he used two more because they wanted to fight to look flashy and cool. I think more than anything that was the reason why... and not he NEEDED two or else he had no chance. Nobody is denying that it would be more difficult with just one saber Darth.. but being more difficult isn't the name as needing two.. nor is it the same as impossible with one.

To go further on cinematic effect... We all know sids didn't need ANY sabers at all to defeat them. He could simply force pwn them with ease... Yet, he didn't do that.. they had him fight a saber fight for purposes of flash and to add drama. This could also be the case with Kenobi.. not NEEDING two sabers but it shure made it look cooler.

I think I answered your question already... Having two made it easier for him to go on the offensive and more dramatic effect. Those would be the reasons why two were shown to be used. Yet, that doesn't mean Mace needs two.. They have two completly different styles. Mace is more offensive and more powerful with his strikes... Kenobi being able to beat them with two.. doesn't mean Mace needed two. Style make fights..

Please stop bringing up Sids NEEDING two sabers.. He didn't even NEED ONE SABER to beat them. This actually hurts your argument more than it's helping it.. I don't know if you realize that yet, but it's not helping you here. It only reinforces the premises that it was done more for effect than it was because it was needed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok then your ignoring how Maul has completely mastered Juyo and how his combat skills have always been said to be unrivaled.

How very sad indeed.

Vapaad made him Sidious's equal. And since Sidious wasn't exactly Saber Stomping both brothers together, I'm not sure why I should believe that Mace will when he's restricted to 1 Saber.

Shatterpoint has never been a guaranteed victory.

Believe it or not, Mace had both Vapaad and Shatterpoint at the time when a less powerful Dooku used to outspar him.

First sparring is just that.. sparring. that is why people don't care about boxers sparring in the gym or sparring in MMA.. it's not a real fight. However, I would like to see the narration stating Mace had mastered both Shatterpoint and Vaapad during said sparring session.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok then your ignoring how Maul has completely mastered Juyo and how his combat skills have always been said to be unrivaled.

How very sad indeed.

What the hell, DP.

So, because it has always been said that his skills are unrivaled Maul is the better combatant? Seriously? That's your logic?



First of all, no, Vaapad didn't make him Sidious equal. I'm sure you recall he actually defeated Sidious. By using Vaapad he actually overpowered Sidious. One of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time. What does that tell you? That he'll be defeated by two much, much less powerful individuals? C'mon.

This is not using A>B>C. This is called using common sense and logic.

The one using A>B>C logic here is you. You're saying that since Sidious 'wasn't exactly saber stomping both brothers together' (which happens to be completely wrong because he was), then Mace can't do it, either.



As mentioned before, sparring is just that. Sparring . It is in no way an indicator of how both duelists would fare had the fight been real. That's a terrible argument.

And you clearly don't know how Vaapad works, and have clearly ignored my explanations on this matter.

Vaapad is literally designed to fight against dark siders, not light siders. That is exactly why he managed to defeat Sidious. It channels the user's inner darkness as he accepts the opponent's rage and inherent darkness. So, even if your 'sparring' argument made any sense, it actually doesn't. Because Dooku was a Jedi at that time. A light sider, which means Vaapad was not as effective.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
What the hell, DP.

So, because it has always been said that his skills are unrivaled Maul is the better combatant? Seriously? That's your logic?

No. Was making a point which you obviously missed.



Originally posted by Col. Valerian
First of all, no, Vaapad didn't make him Sidious equal. I'm sure you recall he actually defeated Sidious. By using Vaapad he actually overpowered Sidious. One of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time. What does that tell you? That he'll be defeated by two much, much less powerful individuals? C'mon.

For a guy who claims to know about Vapaad you have a poor recollection of how the fight was described in the ROTS novel.

Mace and Sidious were described as fighting as equals with Vapaad in place. His edge was Via Shatterpoint. Some will claim he won by gaining the tactical advantage since he won when Sidious turned some of his Force Speed into Force Grip out near the window ledge.


Originally posted by Col. Valerian
You're saying that since Sidious 'wasn't exactly saber stomping both brothers together' (which happens to be completely wrong because he was),

Oh really? Please point me to the part of the fight where he was "Saber Stomping" Both brothers together.



Originally posted by Col. Valerian
As mentioned before, sparring is just that. Sparring . It is in no way an indicator of how both duelists would fare had the fight been real. That's a terrible argument.

What because he's sparring he can't use Shatterpoint? Yeah right. Even Yoda considers Mace as Dooku's equal in Sabers as of the Clone Wars.

So prove Shatterpoint is some kind of guaranteed victory in Lightsaber combat against any opponent.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
And you clearly don't know how Vaapad works, and have clearly ignored my explanations on this matter.



Why would I listen to you when you deny Mace and Sidious were equals which the novel makes perfectly clear.

(The script actually shows that if anyone was doing the overpowering it was Sidious until Mace kicked him.)

Should I just say no to most of that? I'll just let my last post stand.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Should I just say no to most of that? I'll just let my last post stand.


I think you should respond to it...

Just saying

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi


I think he used two more because they wanted to fight to look flashy and cool. I think more than anything that was the reason why...

Omg. Kenobi's in for the fight of his life and he decides to look flashy. I'm done on this point.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Please stop bringing up Sids NEEDING two sabers.. He didn't even NEED ONE SABER to beat them. This actually hurts your argument more than it's helping it.. I don't know if you realize that yet, but it's not helping you here. It only reinforces the premises that it was done more for effect than it was because it was needed.

I don't think Sidious NEEDED 2. But if it helped Kenobi I don't see why it wouldn't help Sidious.

Anyway your right it was just all for show. Kenobi can stomp the Brothers with one Saber. Forget all the evidence from the novel I presented that Kenobi was clearly going to lose in the outside battle.

Compare Obi-Wan's smackdown of the Brothers to Dooku vs Opress and Ventress and I think it's pretty clear Obi-Wan >>> Dooku.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
First sparring is just that.. sparring. that is why people don't care about boxers sparring in the gym or sparring in MMA.. it's not a real fight. However, I would like to see the narration stating Mace had mastered both Shatterpoint and Vaapad during said sparring session.

Read Shatterpoint. He's been amazing at using that since he was a child. You don't think he had fully mastered it by TPM era?

And Mizukage Yoda has the source that shows Mace had already invented Vapaad in that time period.

And hey it's not just the sparring matches. Dark Rendezvous calls Dooku and Mace equal in Saber combat in the Clone Wars time period.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Should I just say no to most of that? I'll just let my last post stand.

What now?

You think Mace stomped Sidious or something?

I have to wonder, then... Are we arguing that Obi-Wan is a more accomplished duelist with two sabers than with one?

Originally posted by -Pr-
I have to wonder, then... Are we arguing that Obi-Wan is a more accomplished duelist with two sabers than with one?

I was arguing the episode, novel and commentary seemed to indicate he could only defeat Both brothers with 2. Im not saying it gives a special advantage against one opponent.

But I'm done with the point. It makes no difference which just means Kenobi's performance against Brothers > Dooku's performance against Ventress and Opress.

One good performance doesn't change the average, so it's not like it's a big deal.

Originally posted by -Pr-
One good performance doesn't change the average, so it's not like it's a big deal.

Then people shouldn't assume Mace would stomp just because Kenobi beat them once.

It's why I try to consider full context of fights. Force powers used, weapons style/form used, the environment, tactics e.t.c.

Because it all makes a difference, so it's not as simple as Mace beat Sidious therefore he stomps here.

I don't think people seriously assume Mace will win because Kenobi did so well. They assume he'll win because he's a vastly superior duelist and force user to Maul/Oppress/Obi-Wan, according to the books/movies/shows.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then people shouldn't assume Mace would stomp just because Kenobi beat them once.

It's why I try to consider full context of fights. Force powers used, weapons style/form used, the environment, tactics e.t.c.

Because it all makes a difference, so it's not as simple as Mace beat Sidious therefore he stomps here.

Well I agree with your last post.. and I don't think I said otherwise. No one doesn't mean the other is a certainty.. Fair enough? However, mace beating Sids.. and sids beating this duo.. is certainly an good indicator that Mace stands a good chance to win. Nobody is saying he would stomp here.. is that why you have your feathers ruffled here? Okay, he won't stomp them. However, it's my belief that Mace is a peer of Sids in most ways.. which thus will allow him, like sids, to win after a good fight? Good enough?

Further, you misrepresented what I said about for visual effect. I'M NOT SAYING KENOBI DID SO FOR VISUAL EFFECT. The DIRECTOR did so for visual effect is what I'm saying. I also concended that Yes, even with that, two Sabers clearly allow Kenobi to go more on the offensive than with one. That should be obvious and why he was able to win. With one saber.. it would look like a much different fight. So if that is what you're saying.. we're in a agreement. My only point is, he didn't neccesarily NEED two sabers to eventually win.

This. Filoni flat out says in the commentary of "The Lawless" that Sidious used two lightsabers because it looked cool to the audience.

Cannot be denied that dual weilding sabers and dual blades Maul style looks badass on screen.

They're definitely wearing the hell out of it, though.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't think people seriously assume Mace will win because Kenobi did so well. They assume he'll win because he's a vastly superior duelist and force user to Maul/Oppress/Obi-Wan, according to the books/movies/shows.

Well KT did actually say that because Obi-Wan won Mace will stomp.

My point remains, that Mace isn't greater than Dooku by a mile in Sabers, and certainly not in the Force.

So I think Dooku's fight against Ventress and Opress is the better comparison.

A peak performance by a dual saber wielding Obi-Wan is too circumstantial to judge these things. It proves that Obi-Wan is a great top-tier duelist. Not that Mace, Dooku Anakin/Vader (pretty much any main character) can stomp these 2 combined.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi


Further, you misrepresented what I said about for visual effect. I'M NOT SAYING KENOBI DID SO FOR VISUAL EFFECT. The DIRECTOR did so for visual effect is what I'm saying. I also concended that Yes, even with that, two Sabers clearly allow Kenobi to go more on the offensive than with one. That should be obvious and why he was able to win. With one saber.. it would look like a much different fight. So if that is what you're saying.. we're in a agreement.

That I can agree with. But it still shows Kenobi used 2 Sabers in that scenario because it was useful to him.

From there the assumption would also be it would be useful to Sidious which is why he likely used them.


Just because it looks cool you still need an In Universe explanation. Otherwise you wouldn't like it if I said Kenobi only beat Anakin because the plot required it would you?


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

My only point is, he didn't neccesarily NEED two sabers to eventually win.

This I doubt. Maul was beginning to overpower Kenobi with the Force. He certainly wouldn't want a prolonged outdoor duel with Maul and Opress who have both shown beastly force feats.

That's where context and environment comes into these things. And from what the novel says even in Sabers it seemed pretty likley Kenobi would have died if he carried on fighting against the Brothers the way he was out outside- On the defense with 1 Saber.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
They're definitely wearing the hell out of it, though.

This is very true..

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No. Was making a point which you obviously missed.

Um, no. I acknowledge the fact that Maul is a very skilled fighter indeed, but that has nothing to do with being superior over Windu. Windu is clearly a very skilled fighter, as well. Your point?




If it weren't for Vaapad, Windu would've been killed before he even had the chance to expose Sidious' weaknesses via Shatterpoint. And even if he would've managed to expose them without Vaapad keeping Sidious at bay, chances are Shatterpoint alone would not have been enough to defeat him. Vaapad is what kept him going and going; it's essentially what kept him alive. So, in a sense, by using Vaapad he managed to defeat Sidious. Without it, he most probably would've failed.


EDIT- I've said before that no matter your lightsaber form, the important and decisive factor when determining the outcome of a fight is each individual's prowess, skill, and mastery of the Force. This said, however, I believe that Vaapad, due to it's unique nature, is the exception to this rule, as seen against Sidious.



I'm not going to discuss this any further. Multiple times has this been debated against you, and impasse was reached long ago. We'll just have to agree to disagree.




Yoda is not the omniscient narrator. But yes, they were indeed considered equals.

However, sparring is not the same to real life, fighting-for-your-life battles. They cannot be compared. As I said, sparring against each other is sparring. You never go all-out when sparring, or it wouldn't be sparring...



Didn't you just say that they were fighting as equals and that 'his edge was via Shatterpoint'...?

Unless you are contradicting yourself, you're saying Shatterpoint can indeed be a decisive factor. So, yes, in this instance, you are correct.

Ergo, I am correct.

biscuits

And I never said that Shatterpoint guarantees victory. You just made that up.




No, they're not equals. Sidious is superior. The only two reasons Windu was able to even keep pace with Sidious are called Vaapad and Shatterpoint.

Windu owns. Sidious owned the brothers with ease, Windu would too.

Mace.

That God most agree Mace wins this.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That God most agree Mace wins this.

Too bad the Skywalker vs Windu thread isn't looking to good for you

not too good as in what? pretty much most agree mace wins.. so how is that not looking good

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Too bad the Skywalker vs Windu thread isn't looking to good for you