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Who wins and why?

Smaug especially if its the nameless Balrog

Have to go with balrog. It was a Maiar like Gandelf and Sauron then a demon because of corruption by Melkor.

The dragons were bred also by Melkor for his services, but Smaug had a weakness that Balrog would be able to take advantage of.

Even-then, I see the Maiar as > than dragons.

Wasn't it stated that the flying fire dragons like Smaug were Melkors greatest weapons? Even more so than the Belrogs.

Is this supposed to be in this forum?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Is this supposed to be in this forum?

Hobbit had a comic book adaptation, not sure about FOTR or any other stuff involving balrog(s).

Smaug is a weakling as dragons go, certainly nowhere near the likes of Ancalagon ot Glaurung. The Balrog of Moria would beat him and it wouldn`t be too close either.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Wasn't it stated that the flying fire dragons like Smaug were Melkors greatest weapons? Even more so than the Belrogs.

The dragons were used by Melkor as devestating weapons, can't recall if they were the greatest weapons. But they almost all had weaknesses. Smaug was killed by an arrow in the only place it wasn't invulnerable at. I think the Balrog in the Fellowship would take advantage of it.

In tolkiens earlier writings, the Balrogs were just creatures, twice the size of men, rode on dragons in battle. They were killable by both Men and Elves. In later writings, they were written as Maiar who became Balrogs. Or Angels who fell and became Demons.

IIRC in the Fellowship, Gandalf told everyone to run because their weapons would be useless against the Balrog. The dragons were killed multiple times in the history of middle earth, but the Maiar were immortal and were never killed unless their powers were removed like in the case of Saruman. Saruman's body was "killed" because it was really a shell, his spirit remained and should have entered the hall of mandos but was denied entry. So Balrog wins.. :-)

Originally posted by Mshinu
Smaug is a weakling as dragons go, certainly nowhere near the likes of Ancalagon ot Glaurung. The Balrog of Moria would beat him and it wouldn`t be too close either.

Why Gandalf didn't choose to solo Smaug then?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Why Gandalf didn't choose to solo Smaug then?

For the interest of the story? lol, I believe once he became Gandalf the White, he should have been able to defeat Sauron himself and didn't really need to go through with destroying the ring.

I am not sure Balrogs were that unkillable. Glorfindel killed one at the fall of Gondolin and Ecthelion killed Gothmog himself. Not without being killed in return however, it may be implied that it takes the sacrifive of someone like an elflord to end the corrupted maiar. As far as I know Gothmog never returned despite being immortal.

As for Gandalf and the wizards, their task was to strengthen the free people of Middle Earth. Facing Sauron directly may even be forbidden, not that he could just walk up and knock on the doors of Barad-Dur anyway.

Originally posted by Mshinu
I am not sure Balrogs were that unkillable. Glorfindel killed one at the fall of Gondolin and Ecthelion killed Gothmog himself. Not without being killed in return however, it may be implied that it takes the sacrifive of someone like an elflord to end the corrupted maiar. As far as I know Gothmog never returned despite being immortal.

That was in the first age and Tolkien wrote Balrogs were basically glorified Orcs in his earlier writings. They became Maiar in his later writings. Gothmog although lord of the balrogs wasn't written as a Maiar or have any of their attributes. Been awhile, though so i might be mistaken.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Wasn't it stated that the flying fire dragons like Smaug were Melkors greatest weapons? Even more so than the Belrogs.

Close. The winged dragons were called his greatest defense.

Originally posted by Diesldude
In tolkiens earlier writings, the Balrogs were just creatures, twice the size of men, rode on dragons in battle. They were killable by both Men and Elves. In later writings, they were written as Maiar who became Balrogs. Or Angels who fell and became Demons.

I can not think of a single writing where the balrogs are described as something other than a maiar. Even throughout the Silmarillion they were Maiar and were getting cut down by men and elves. Tolkien did, however, decrease their numbers.

Originally posted by Diesldude
IIRC in the Fellowship, Gandalf told everyone to run because their weapons would be useless against the Balrog. The dragons were killed multiple times in the history of middle earth, but the Maiar were immortal and were never killed unless their powers were removed like in the case of Saruman. Saruman's body was "killed" because it was really a shell, his spirit remained and should have entered the hall of mandos but was denied entry. So Balrog wins.. :-)

Wrong. Weapons proved to be useful against Balrogs and Maiar in general. They could be used to destroy a Maia's body and some maiar, like the Balrogs, would be unable to reform.

Originally posted by Diesldude
For the interest of the story? lol, I believe once he became Gandalf the White, he should have been able to defeat Sauron himself and didn't really need to go through with destroying the ring.

Eh? Gandalf straight up refutes that idea.

A normal sword sliced off Sauron's fingers. So to say weapons are useless against Mair is disproven right there.

Originally posted by Diesldude
That was in the first age and Tolkien wrote Balrogs were basically glorified Orcs in his earlier writings. They became Maiar in his later writings. Gothmog although lord of the balrogs wasn't written as a Maiar or have any of their attributes. Been awhile, though so i might be mistaken.

I believe they are named as "fire spirits" that Melkor called to for help when Ungoliant was killing him. Certainly no weaklings considering they drove away what "Satan" himself could not handle.

But yes the ones being killed in Gondolin`s fall may be the result of earlier writings. Tolkien had I think many many drafts about this part in particular.

Originally posted by KingD19
A normal sword

What? Didn't Isildur use Narsil?

I watched the movie more times than I read the book, so forgive me if I mixed it up.

Originally posted by KingD19
A normal sword sliced off Sauron's fingers. So to say weapons are useless against Mair is disproven right there.

Narsil was no normal blade, not by an intergalactic shot.

In the book Isildur cut off only one finger, btw.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Narsil was no normal blade, not by an intergalactic shot.

Exactly.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
In the book Isildur cut off only one finger, btw.

And at that time Sauron was already "dead" having been slain by Gil-Galad and Elendil.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
In the book Isildur cut off only one finger, btw.

And when Sauron rebuilt his body, his hand was still crippeled with one finger missing. Ow!

Originally posted by Mshinu
Narsil was no normal blade, not by an intergalactic shot.

Yeah, that's the trouble with only using the movies as source material. They glossed over a LOT of stuff.

Narsil was no Stormbringer, sure, but what is? (Seriously, what is? That things practically the most overpowered sword in fantasy, and it pisses me off..)

Originally posted by ares834
Close. The winged dragons were called his greatest defense.



I can not think of a single writing where the balrogs are described as something other than a maiar. Even throughout the Silmarillion they were Maiar and were getting cut down by men and elves. Tolkien did, however, decrease their numbers.



Wrong. Weapons proved to be useful against Balrogs and Maiar in general. They could be used to destroy a Maia's body and some maiar, like the Balrogs, would be unable to reform.



Eh? Gandalf straight up refutes that idea.


The The Fall of Gondolin was an earlier work of tolkien and the balrogs did die in the dozens. Tolkien made them more powerful later on as he strengthened his mythology. I wouldn't be surprised that the maiar were getting killed left and right in his earlier works because, afterall, Melkor was hurt by a spider like creature. The name escapes me.


Now tell me if Gothmog, a Balrog who died by getting helmet stabbed and drowning equal to the Balrog of Moria? The balrog of moria single handedly drove out the dwarves, provoked gandalf to tell his party to run because their weapons will not work against him.
I'm picking that balrog over Smaug.

Also, I think the Maiar if vulnerable, were only vulnerable because of the body they took as host. Gandalf, Saruman were old men, although stronger than they looked but not bullet proof and so could be killed.

The balrog of Moria in contrast had a powerful form and would be harder to kill by medieval weaponry than a maiar in a old man's body.

Ungoliant only beat Morgoth, not Melkor. And she had devoured the power of the two trees, which made her equal to the Valar.

Also IIRC Gandalf the white was invulnerable to any weapon created by man.

I don`t recall Gothmog being drowned, in Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales the fight is just described as the Balrog and Ecthelion killing each other in Gondolin`s marketplace. Earlier drafts may have had the Balrogs as less formidable, but the published main works certainly show them as enormously powerful in all apperances. Also the elves wielded great power in the past, balrogs getting killed by them is no shame at all. Fingolfin dueled Melkor himself and wounded him greatly.

Balrogs are certainly Maiar/angels, even the name means power-demon in elven.

Oh and Ungoliant was not just some "spider-creature". She was from the void outside, a being not of Eru`s (God`s) creation. And Shelob`s mom by the way.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Ungoliant only beat Morgoth, not Melkor. And she had devoured the power of the two trees, which made her equal to the Valar.

Also IIRC Gandalf the white was invulnerable to any weapon created by man. As he should be.

Also, shouldn't Gandalf the white be > Sauron?

Originally posted by Mshinu
I don`t recall Gothmog being drowned, in Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales the fight is just described as the Balrog and Ecthelion killing each other in Gondolin`s marketplace. Earlier drafts may have had the Balrogs as less formidable, but the published main works certainly show them as enormously powerful in all apperances. Also the elves wielded great power in the past, balrogs getting killed by them is no shame at all. Fingolfin dueled Melkor himself and wounded him greatly.

Balrogs are certainly Maiar/angels, even the name means power-demon in elven.

Yeah he fell after getting stabbed and drowned. I'm going to find a ebook version of it and see if can that part into here. LOL
but who knows, maybe the helmet that stabbed him the chest was magical. :-)

Originally posted by Diesldude
Also, shouldn't Gandalf the white be > Sauron?

Could be. After all, Sauron has been defeated by a dog in the past

But Gandalf is vulnerable to wood or at least the type of wood in Hobbit ceilings hmm...

Originally posted by Diesldude
The The Fall of Gondolin was an earlier work of tolkien and the balrogs did die in the dozens. Tolkien made them more powerful later on as he strengthened his mythology. I wouldn't be surprised that the maiar were getting killed left and right in his earlier works because, afterall, Melkor was hurt by a spider like creature. The name escapes me.

Ungoliant. And quit calling the Silmarillion one of his "earlier works". He was working on it after LotR.

Originally posted by Diesldude
Now tell me if Gothmog, a Balrog who died by getting helmet stabbed and drowning equal to the Balrog of Moria? The balrog of moria single handedly drove out the dwarves, provoked gandalf to tell his party to run because their weapons will not work against him.
I'm picking that balrog over Smaug.

Smaug also "single handedly drove out the dwarves"...

And, yes, that's how Gothmog, mightiest of the Balrogs, died. And nothing Tolkien has written indicates he retconned it.

Originally posted by Diesldude
Also, I think the Maiar if vulnerable, were only vulnerable because of the body they took as host. Gandalf, Saruman were old men, although stronger than they looked but not bullet proof and so could be killed.

The balrog of Moria in contrast had a powerful form and would be harder to kill by medieval weaponry than a maiar in a old man's body.

Maiar are vulnerable to weapons... We see this again and again. Heck, even Morgoth was hurt by a weapon. And while a Balrog being large and monstrous would likely be harder to slay than a man, a dragon would be difficult as well.

Originally posted by Diesldude
Also, shouldn't Gandalf the white be > Sauron?

No.

Gandalf told Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli that Sauron was more powerful than him.

Edit: Here we are.

"And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. "

"I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still."

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Also IIRC Gandalf the white was invulnerable to any weapon created by man.

No.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Could be. After all, Sauron has been defeated by a dog in the past

But Gandalf is vulnerable to wood or at least the type of wood in Hobbit ceilings hmm... You got a point there eventhough Huan was as big as a small horse . LOL

Smaug was the greatest of the fire Dragons in the third Age. Durins Bane was "just" a normal Balrog. A Maiar though powerful can still be less powerful then a great Hero of Man, Dwarf or Elf. Especially the Elves had heroes who were more then capable enough to defeat Sauron or give even Melkor(Morgoth) a fight. The Wizards or Istari were depowered Maiar, depowered because they were given a mortal Form. Gandalf was the second in power and when he returned as Gandalf the White he was "just" slightly more powerful then Saruman the white (who was less powerful, since he became Saruman the many colored).

All in all. Gandalf the Grey died but defeated the Balrog in their 10 Day battle. However he was amped. He had Glamdring and Narya the Ring of Fire, one of the 3 Elven rings of Power. Fighting a foe whose greatest weapon is fire with a ring that gives you power over fire is a good advantage.

Gandalf avoided a direct confrontation against Smaug. I think Smaug is slightly more powerful. The Balrog killed two Dwaven Kings within 2 Years, Smaug took Erebor within a very short time and Erebor had a more powerful Army IIRC.

I would say Gandalf the Grey /amped >= Balrog
Gandalf the White /amped >= Smaug > Gandalf the Grey /amped

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Smaug was the greatest of the fire Dragons in the third Age. Durins Bane was "just" a normal Balrog. A Maiar though powerful can still be less powerful then a great Hero of Man, Dwarf or Elf. Especially the Elves had heroes who were more then capable enough to defeat Sauron or give even Melkor(Morgoth) a fight. The Wizards or Istari were depowered Maiar, depowered because they were given a mortal Form. Gandalf was the second in power and when he returned as Gandalf the White he was "just" slightly more powerful then Saruman the white (who was less powerful, since he became Saruman the many colored).

All in all. Gandalf the Grey died but defeated the Balrog in their 10 Day battle. However he was amped. He had Glamdring and Narya the Ring of Fire, one of the 3 Elven rings of Power. Fighting a foe whose greatest weapon is fire with a ring that gives you power over fire is a good advantage.

Gandalf avoided a direct confrontation against Smaug. I think Smaug is slightly more powerful. The Balrog killed two Dwaven Kings within 2 Years, Smaug took Erebor within a very short time and Erebor had a more powerful Army IIRC.

I would say Gandalf the Grey /amped >= Balrog
Gandalf the White /amped >= Smaug > Gandalf the Grey /amped

Mostly spot on.. but you're forgetting that Ganfalf also tried to run from the balrog and avoid a direct confrontation with him as well.. He just had to stop to save the mission and the others. He didn't even want to go through The mines knowing what was there.. so we can't act like he was okay with fighting the balrog but not smaug.. that just isn't so.

Also, this was an inferior balrog to Gothmog Lord of the Balrogs. Gothmog would beat Sauron and has much better feats thatn Sauron. So no, I wouldn't put Saruman, Gandalf or Sauron above Gothmog or even some other powerful balrogs. After all they are all Maiar

Originally posted by Diesldude
As he should be.

Also, shouldn't Gandalf the white be > Sauron? no, and this is the movie version which has Sauron definitively greater than Gandalf. Even the Witch King drummed him.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Gothmog would beat Sauron and has much better feats thatn Sauron. Like being killed by a helmet.

Anyway, Smaug wins based on movie showings.

Listen people,Durins Bane is resistant from fire unlike Smaug,who is not.And Smaugs most powerful attacks are fire-breath ones,like for every dragon.So,Smaug can only hit him to damage him,but he would probably catch on fire himself too.And also,Smaugs weapon is some random fire-breath,unformed fire,unlike balrogs weapons, sword and a whip formed of fire.Basically,we can compare Smaug with some guy who throws rocks,while balrog is like someone fighting with sword made of rock.

Durins Bane:-fire resistant
-uses fire FORMED into sword or whip

Smaug:-any "hit weapons" resistant,excluding the Black Arrow
-uses UNFORMED fire attacks
-can hit or bite

CONCLUSION: Smaug is useless against Durins Bane.

And even IF Smaug somehow beats Durins Bane,only his body would "die".

And how could some mortal heroes be mightier than godlike spirits?
Please send me a link if there is an explanation.

Smaug's head is the size of Durin's Bane's whole body.

I find it hard to believe that Smaug is going to lose.

Smaug utterly decimates the weak Balrog.

LOL,if human can beat Smaug,WTF do you think balrog,who is way bigger than humans,can do to Smaug along with all this advantages.
xD
And Smaug is not very or way bigger than balrog.
But,yeah,he is bigger and more intelligent than balrog.

And balrog isnt weak lol.

And balrogs are Maiars,so they can change size of their body as they will.

Originally posted by Finston
LOL,if human can beat Smaug,WTF do you think balrog,who is way bigger than humans,can do to Smaug along with all this advantages.
xD
And Smaug is not very or way bigger than balrog.
But,yeah,he is bigger and more intelligent than balrog. Smaug is at least twenty times the size of the Balrog.

I think if you asked Tolkien he'd have said that a Balrog is > a dragon, but based on what I've seen in the movies, Smaug is much more impressive than the Balrog. Even if he can't kill him, he can bfr him because despite having wings we have no evidence that the Balrog can fly, and so dropping the Balrog into an ocean might work.

During the War of Wrath, dragons were killing the shit out of Maiar.

POriginally posted by Finston
And balrogs are Maiars,so they can change size of their body as they will. Movie version. You book nerds are such nerds.

shut up nerd

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
shut up nerd Hush, geek.

shut up nerd

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
shut up nerd Smaug wins.

I agree

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I agree Quit riding my coattails.

shut up nerd

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
shut up nerd Submit to me.

shut up nerd

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
shut up nerd Yield to me.

shut up nerd

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
shut up nerd Give in.

If Durins Bane changes his size to become bigger than Smaug,he would beat him with ease then.And smaug wouldnt be able to lift him.
HAHA!!!

Balrog FTW

Originally posted by Finston
If Durins Bane changes his size to become bigger than Smaug,he would beat him with ease then.And smaug wouldnt be able to lift him.
HAHA!!!

Balrog FTW Movie version and your bias isn't enough to alter objective facts.

Well, this degraded quickly. Closed until Imped can figure out what to do with some of you. ermm