Categorizing era by force power

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Q99
Alright, I was going through the various eras in my head and categorizing them because, well, that's what I do smile

A couple prefaces: This is mostly by quantity of high-tier force users. That is to say, even a single really uber force user or two won't give an era a top rating. They count a bit more than less uber ones, but numbers weigh more.
This is about achieved power, not potential.
You may disagree on some of these ratings, and you're free to, feel free to post your own opinions.

Chronologically,

Hundred Years Darkness- HIGH

We primarily know the survival exiles, and of the 12, we know 5 were particularly uber. And those were impressive indeed, Muur was a serious badass when we saw him in action, Dreypa his rival was able to bully pretty much the entire Lost Tribe of the Sith later on, and Ajunta Pall was supposed to be stronger. Five of those! And they lost! Way up there.

Darth Andeddu Era of Sith Empire- LOW

There was a point when Darth Andeddu was the most powerful living sith and a great sorcerer, to the level that the other members of the Sith Empire had to gang up to try and take him down, but when revived in a later era he was still overcome by the number two member of the One Sith in his own speciality.


Great Hyperspace War- LOW

In contrast to the HYD, you had Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh... and that's about it. And Naga relied on artificial aids for his big feats. Of the Jedi, several were reasonably skilled, but none really shown to be high tier. It was a bit higher before Marka Ragnos, who was pretty uber, died, but well, he was dead by the war.

Exar Kun War- MEDIUM

In the first of the Old Sith Wars, you've got Exar, Ulic, Nomi, Thon, Arca Jeth, and Vodo-Siosk Baas. Some stronger than others, but a pretty nice lineup.

KotoR (Comics)- LOW

A few decades after Exar Kun, still several years before Revan goes Sith, the casualties of the Exar Kun war have apparently . We know a good number of, but the strongest individual seems to be the Revanchrist, who's not near what he'll become.

KotoR (Revan's war)- LOW

Better than the above, but you have Revan, you have Malak... and that's about it! The Jedi at this time relied on teams to take on tougher Sith, Atris is the only one that comes to mine.

KotoR (Triumvirate)- MEDIUM

Beats the prior conflict but not by much. Three new Sith add to the pack, Meetra Surik being able to beat any of the new sith. Aside from Meetra, Atris is still around. Considering the next era has a number of people higher than the person who beat everyone else in the era, on the low side of Medium.


TOR- HIGH

One of the highest eras. Vitiate, several high-end Sith like Malgus, Scourge, the Emperor's Wrath, and the more impressive members of the Dark Council, Satele Shan, the Hero of Tython, Barsen'thor, and several more Jedi who are pretty strong themselves.

New Sith Wars- VARIES

Well, long era, we see a fair number of medium-tier sith during the Knight Errant era, and know of some individual badasses scattered around the era like Darth Ruin, the Dark Underlord, and Belia Darzu, but unfortunately lack enough information on any specific time to give much in the way of ratings.


New Sith Wars (Brotherhood of Darkness)- MEDIUM

You've got Bane, Kaan, Kas'im, and two other members of the sith who are supposed to be rivals of the prior. In the Jedi, you have Hoth and Raskta Lsu.

Post-New Sith Wars- LOW

You've got Bane, Zannah, and Raskta Lsu until she dies. That's it. It takes quite awhile for the force using community to recover from the battle of Ruusian.

Clone War- HIGH

Yoda, Mace, Sidious, Dooku, Plagueis when he's around, Anakin, Obi-wan, and a whole rack of solid masters and other sith apprentices / prospective apprentices like Maul, Depa Billaba, Shaak Ti, Plo Koon, etc.. Probably the lowest of the Highs, but it's called the golden age of the Jedi for a reason.


Rebellion- LOW

Sidious, Vader. Two's not exactly a lot, badass they may be. There's some inquisitors around but only Jerec's really worth mentioning. The addition of Galen Marek bumps this up to MEDIUM, but only for a short time, he doesn't last long.

Post-Endor- LOW

But wait, it had Luke! You might say. Sure, but it only had Luke, and he wasn't fully trained, and the other Jedi he picked up were even less so for several years, even if some of them were pretty badass. Immediately after Palpatine's fall was one of the lowest points, and even when you get into the Clone Empire that raised the number of high end force users to two.

New Jedi Order- HIGH

Grand Master Luke, Kyle Katarn, Mara Jade, Corran Horn, the Solo twins Jaina and Jacen, Saba Sebatyne, and more solid ones behind them. Even Lumiya's gotten rather powerful at this point. One of the highest eras, there's a reason they beat major threats like the Vong and Lost Tribe with most of their strong members intact.

Legacy- MEDIUM

Darth Krayt, Wyyrlok, Cade Skywalker, Celeste Morne-with-Muur, and a good number of very solid masters in the rest of Krayt's inner circle, some of the Jedi like Shado Vao, Nat Skywalker, and Planted T'ra Saa, and some of the Imperial Knights, such as Draco who took down six sith warriors at the same time. One of the higher Mediums even, though a bit less-so when the casualties really hit at the end.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Q99
Darth Andeddu Era of Sith Empire- LOW

There was a point when Darth Andeddu was the most powerful living sith and a great sorcerer, to the level that the other members of the Sith Empire had to gang up to try and take him down, but when revived in a later era he was still overcome by the number two member of the One Sith in his own speciality.
Do you know the exact timeline of his existence?

Originally posted by Q99
Great Hyperspace War- LOW

In contrast to the HYD, you had Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh... and that's about it. And Naga relied on artificial aids for his big feats. Of the Jedi, several were reasonably skilled, but none really shown to be high tier. It was a bit higher before Marka Ragnos, who was pretty uber, died, but well, he was dead by the war.
Vitiate existed during this time. In addition, the Jedi of this era were a force to be reckoned with.

Greatest issue is that much of the ancient times are noticeably unexplored so it is difficult to ascertain competency of Force-wielders during these times.

Originally posted by Q99
Exar Kun War- MEDIUM

In the first of the Old Sith Wars, you've got Exar, Ulic, Nomi, Thon, Arca Jeth, and Vodo-Siosk Baas. Some stronger than others, but a pretty nice lineup.

KotoR (Comics)- LOW

A few decades after Exar Kun, still several years before Revan goes Sith, the casualties of the Exar Kun war have apparently . We know a good number of, but the strongest individual seems to be the Revanchrist, who's not near what he'll become.

KotoR (Revan's war)- LOW

Better than the above, but you have Revan, you have Malak... and that's about it! The Jedi at this time relied on teams to take on tougher Sith, Atris is the only one that comes to mine.

KotoR (Triumvirate)- MEDIUM

Beats the prior conflict but not by much. Three new Sith add to the pack, Meetra Surik being able to beat any of the new sith. Aside from Meetra, Atris is still around. Considering the next era has a number of people higher than the person who beat everyone else in the era, on the low side of Medium.
Ressurected ancient Sith Empire (led by Vitiate) existed in all of these times. Therefore, all should rank HIGH.

Also, we shouldn't underrate Bastilla, Bandon and Vandar.

Originally posted by Q99
New Sith Wars (Brotherhood of Darkness)- MEDIUM

You've got Bane, Kaan, Kas'im, and two other members of the sith who are supposed to be rivals of the prior. In the Jedi, you have Hoth and Raskta Lsu.
Should rank LOW

Kaan's brotherhood promoted equality rather then cut-throat competition. Bane was instrumental in its downfall; not the Jedi.

Originally posted by Q99
Clone War- HIGH

Yoda, Mace, Sidious, Dooku, Plagueis when he's around, Anakin, Obi-wan, and a whole rack of solid masters and other sith apprentices / prospective apprentices like Maul, Depa Billaba, Shaak Ti, Plo Koon, etc.. Probably the lowest of the Highs, but it's called the golden age of the Jedi for a reason.
Should rank MEDIUM

The Jedi are not fighting a Sith Empire but rather a rebellion force comprised of mainly droids.

Q99
Beyond sometime during the Sith Empire, nope, just the circumstances from his history.



Yea, I did forget about him. Worth mentioning, but wasn't uber yet, just moderately strong. We can count him, as he was doing stuff in the Empire, but I wouldn't say it's sufficient change the rank at this point.

Of the several Jedi introduced in the conflict, none stood out as particularly high level in their performance. Even the ones defending Coruscant and Kirrek. Ooroo was the most notable, and Odan-Urr, the one who had the most long-term fame for stuff centuries later, wasn't yet strong enough to use Battle Meditation to any real effect against the Sith forces.



Mm, since they aren't active in galactic affairs, I think they should be counted separately. Ditto, say, the One Sith when they're in hiding, the Lost Tribe (though of course not getting near as high), and The Ones.

Also we have no idea how long it took for it to become big and powerful. It started, after all, as a small thing and only struck out during TOR. We only know one or two of it's sith lords while it was in hiding. So ignorance makes it hard to count it too.

I.e. one can consider the TOR Empire as a bar that gradually raises from Low to High in the background while the ones in the front fluctuate around.



Still, Bane himself admitted Kaan was not weak. Bane, Ka'sim, and the lords acknowledged as serious rivals in power, Qordis and Kopecz, were strong. Most got strong before the Brotherhood itself was formed, so weren't hampered too much by it's non-cut throat nature, though newer recruits certainly wouldn't get to that level, with the exception of Bane for obvious reasons.

And then there's the Jedi of the time.

While individually, no uber members aside from Bane, there was a good number of strong force users.



But there were still several powerful active Sith in addition to a great lineup of powerful Jedi. The Jedi are the primary reason it rates high, there were a lot of them. And it had not just one, but multiple very uber people.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, I did forget about him. Worth mentioning, but wasn't uber yet, just moderately strong. We can count him, as he was doing stuff in the Empire, but I wouldn't say it's sufficient change the rank at this point.
Moderately strong is an understatement; he began killing adults at the age of 6; he killed Lord Dramath at the age of 10; he killed many potential rivals afterwards; Marka Ragnos found him very impressive when he met him (Vitiate; only 13 years old during this meeting) for the first time and accepted his rule over his homeworld; Vitiate, however, secluded himself from greater political ambitions and concentrated on his personal ambitions.

Bigger issue is that the "ground realities" of both the Jedi Order and Sith Empire during this era are not very clear to us with current level of content. Details of rise of Vitiate to power during this era is a welcome addition nonetheless.

Originally posted by Q99
Of the several Jedi introduced in the conflict, none stood out as particularly high level in their performance. Even the ones defending Coruscant and Kirrek. Ooroo was the most notable, and Odan-Urr, the one who had the most long-term fame for stuff centuries later, wasn't yet strong enough to use Battle Meditation to any real effect against the Sith forces.
But the Jedi won the "Great Hyperspace War" nonetheless; it is a big accomplishment. You disagree?

Originally posted by Q99
Mm, since they aren't active in galactic affairs, I think they should be counted separately. Ditto, say, the One Sith when they're in hiding, the Lost Tribe (though of course not getting near as high), and The Ones.
Sith Emperor was active during these times barring that of Exar Kun. He was responsible for the Mandalorian Wars and also the Jedi Civil War.

Originally posted by Q99
Also we have no idea how long it took for it to become big and powerful. It started, after all, as a small thing and only struck out during TOR. We only know one or two of it's sith lords while it was in hiding. So ignorance makes it hard to count it too.
During the time of Revan, it was powerful enough for him to not ignore it as a threat. Unlike the lost tribe of Sith, this resurrected Sith Empire was a big threat. Revan was responsible for the delay in the invasion of the Republic; otherwise, the timing would have been perfect right after the fall of the Sith Triumvirate.

Originally posted by Q99
I.e. one can consider the TOR Empire as a bar that gradually raises from Low to High in the background while the ones in the front fluctuate around.
See above.

Originally posted by Q99
Still, Bane himself admitted Kaan was not weak. Bane, Ka'sim, and the lords acknowledged as serious rivals in power, Qordis and Kopecz, were strong. Most got strong before the Brotherhood itself was formed, so weren't hampered too much by it's non-cut throat nature, though newer recruits certainly wouldn't get to that level, with the exception of Bane for obvious reasons.

And then there's the Jedi of the time.

While individually, no uber members aside from Bane, there was a good number of strong force users.
To be honest, the brotherhood holds no candle to the legends of the past such as the Sith which existed during the TOR timeline. The Sith rulers during these times came close to destroying both the Republic and the Jedi Order (and in all out confrontations nonetheless). On the contrary, the Jedi Order and the Republic were not short on capable agents either who managed to turn the tide of the conflicts regardless of "nearly unstoppable" odds.

Thanks to the intellect of Bane, he figured out the method to not just defeat the Jedi on Ruusan but also terminate the brotherhood. Revan's holocron paved way for the rise of Sith to great power once more.

In addition, notable Jedi were also few during Bane's era.

I believe that the aftermath of the events of TOR timeline led to the decay of Sith in the future until Bane came in to the picture.

Originally posted by Q99
But there were still several powerful active Sith in addition to a great lineup of powerful Jedi. The Jedi are the primary reason it rates high, there were a lot of them. And it had not just one, but multiple very uber people.
Issue is that the Jedi Order was primarily contending with droids during this era. The Order wasn't adequately prepared for the threat of Sith. Several centuries of peace have led it to this failure. In the past, the Jedi Order have always found a way to survive against heavy odds; in contrast, the Jedi Order of this era couldn't.

Competent individuals have existed in all eras; key difference is that Anakin's era is the most well-explored era of the mythos and this is why we find the players in this era so impressive. In the big picture, the Jedi Order of this era is a failure and the stage for the Sith to rise in power have already been set a thousand years earlier after the discovery of Revan's holocron.

Those Jedi who got the chance to directly contend with the dark side practitioners; typically ended up dead or defeated or stalemated. Even Yoda have questionable record in his fights. Anakin, Obi-Wan and Mace proved to be the most competent warriors of this era.

smile

Q99
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Moderately strong is an understatement; he began killing adults at the age of 6; he killed Lord Dramath at the age of 10; he killed many potential rivals afterwards; Marka Ragnos found him very impressive when he met him (Vitiate; only 13 years old during this meeting) for the first time and accepted his rule over his homeworld; Vitiate, however, secluded himself from greater political ambitions and concentrated on his personal ambitions.

All very good points. Still, that only adds one.



It is a big accomplishment, but it was won mostly through the Republican's conventional forces, and the Empress Teta and her armies.

Jedi rarely clashed with Sith directly during the war, and those clashes were not the important points. The Jedi played some strategic role holding off sith sorcery, but that was about it. The key turning point was actually a Republic force-sensitive he had duped turning on him

It's not like the Exar Kun war where you had the Jedi scorch a planet with a wall of light- the Jedi in the Hyperspace War fought some Massassi, Sith Soldiers, and probably some minor lords, of which we don't know the details of. If there were any epic duels or great shows of the force, we don't know about it.




He set things in motion, but was personally very distant from them.




I agree- there was a half-dozen or so powerful Sith in the Brotherhood (including Bane), but no truly uber ones like Vitiate.

But there were still more of them than in some other eras.





Well, I'd say it's more complex than that. Post TOR, things went in decline for awhile... but then things got a lot better with Darth Ruin and the Fourth Great Schism that started the New Sith Wars. For awhile, their lords were said to be incredibly powerful. But, in turn, once Belia Darzu fell, no-one was able to unite them for centuries, and they did go downhill as you say until Bane.

The reason why Kaan was able to do as much as he did was because said greater lords had already worn down the Republic so much.




Ok, but that has to do with Palpatine's brilliant plan to have their own army turned on them. I'm just talking about the total number of high-power force users here, which the CW era had in abundance, even if many of them did end up walking into a giant trap.




Agreed. Heck, I would argue quite a few eras rate higher in competence than the CW era, just the CW era has a lot of force power.



I'm just noting that a lot of them were noted to be specifically very force impressive in the absolute sense. Yoda, Mace, Palpatine, you could drop any of these three into the MEDIUM or LOW eras and they'd usually be the strongest, occasionally the second strongest. Only in the HIGH eras would they find multiple peers in terms of power.

The_Tempest
laughing out loud

You also neglected the inclusion of Barriss Offee, who presently sits atop the heap.

Nephthys
I'd rank the Kotor-era as Medium to High personally. But then, I wouldn't separate the Triumvirate-era from it. Its only a few years since Kotor, the same time-frame as the Clone Wars. I'd also take Revan into consideration. That way you still have Revan, Malak and Bastila but also The Exile, Sion, Nihilus and Kreia, Vitiate, Scourge and Nyriss. Thats at least a Medium lineup.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd rank the Kotor-era as Medium to High personally. But then, I wouldn't separate the Triumvirate-era from it. Its only a few years since Kotor, the same time-frame as the Clone Wars. I'd also take Revan into consideration. That way you still have Revan, Malak and Bastila but also The Exile, Sion, Nihilus and Kreia, Vitiate, Scourge and Nyriss. Thats at least a Medium lineup.

Barriss could solo. erm

Nephthys
Also Bandon. excellent


Still think she could solo?


B*tch?!

The_Tempest
mmm

Lemme get back to you

Nephthys
Get back to me in the other thread. estahuh

Q99
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd rank the Kotor-era as Medium to High personally. But then, I wouldn't separate the Triumvirate-era from it. Its only a few years since Kotor, the same time-frame as the Clone Wars.

But they aren't active at the same time. One group is around, then the other group.

Combined it's easily medium, but it's more two different lows in rapid succession.

Full amalgam KotoR, Med-to-High, sure.



The last three of which are way off in Sithland.

The_Tempest
The Jedi of the prequels are, collectively, greater than any previous incarnation of the order: The Big Man called it "the heyday, the golden age of the Jedi." You also have the pinnacle of the Rule of Two in Sidious, the most powerful and intelligent Sith Lord in history.

And Barriss Offee.

Nephthys
By that logic the Golden Age of the Sith would be superior by the same virtue inherent of the title. Not only does it have obviously the bestest Sith ever, on an Empire-scale, but also a thriving Jedi Order. Whereas the Prequels only have like, 3 Sith? in total.

Lololies outies!

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
By that logic the Golden Age of the Sith would be superior by the same virtue inherent of the title. Not only does it have obviously the bestest Sith ever, on an Empire-scale, but also a thriving Jedi Order. Whereas the Prequels only have like, 3 Sith? in total.

Lololies outies!

First, the Golden Age of the Sith does not have Barris Offee. Your argument is invalid.

But even if I were to entertain your nonsense, The Big Man's comments are specifically in reference to combat whereas the Ragnos era could refer to multiple elements or a combination thereof.

The numbers aren't decisive when the one conquers a galaxy whereas thousands upon thousands upon thousands failed miserably. It's embarrassing how vastly superior Sidious is to his predecessors.

But that's prolly why he's the main villain whereas no one cares about Nihilus, Vitiate, Malgus, etc. erm

Q99
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Jedi of the prequels are, collectively, greater than any previous incarnation of the order: The Big Man called it "the heyday, the golden age of the Jedi." You also have the pinnacle of the Rule of Two in Sidious, the most powerful and intelligent Sith Lord in history.

And Barriss Offee.

There's a reason they're HIGH.



The Golden Age of the Sith doesn't actually seem to have the best sith ever, though, and I don't think were stated as such. It's the only time when the Sith ruled unchallenged for centuries, but weren't the dream-team of top Sith that some other era had.

The Prequels had 4 Sith (Sidious, Tyranus, Maul, Vader at the end), plus two more high-level pseudo-Sith (Opress, Ventress). And I'm pretty sure that if they had walked in during the Golden Age of the Sith while Sadow was in charge, they would've been able to take out the whole Sith Council, some of whom were there for purely political reasons.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
First, the Golden Age of the Sith does not have Barris Offee. Your argument is invalid.

But even if I were to entertain your nonsense, The Big Man's comments are specifically in reference to combat whereas the Ragnos era could refer to multiple elements or a combination thereof.

The numbers aren't decisive when the one conquers a galaxy whereas thousands upon thousands upon thousands failed miserably. It's embarrassing how vastly superior Sidious is to his predecessors.

But that's prolly why he's the main villain whereas no one cares about Nihilus, Vitiate, Malgus, etc. erm

Does it matter? The thread is looking for the largest number of high-tier Force users, not combatants. The Golden Age would logically have that number. After all, the Sith are a cult based around using the Force, it stands that the greatest incarnation of them would be the greatest at using the Force.

This thread is specifically about comparing the number of high-tier force users era by era. Numbers is decisive. Savvy?

More people care about the Kotor games than the Prequels. excellent

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Does it matter? The thread is looking for the largest number of high-tier Force users, not combatants. The Golden Age would logically have that number. After all, the Sith are a cult based around using the Force, it stands that the greatest incarnation of them would be the greatest at using the Force.

This thread is specifically about comparing the number of high-tier force users era by era. Numbers is decisive. Savvy?

More people care about the Kotor games than the Prequels. excellent

no lol

KotOR is more acclaimed than the prequels. Sales-wise? The prequels enjoy a titanic, monumental advantage.

As for the rest, I don't necessarily disagree. I was just saying that the prequels, the golden age of the Jedi, represented the pinnacle of Jedi strength.

And no, a golden age of Sith does not necessarily represent the Sith at their peak in terms of combat unless otherwise specified.

Q99
Hm, in terms of sheer numbers, what would be the highest?

The GA of the Sith was at a time when both Sith Empire and Republic were comparatively tiny. Later eras would have a lot more recruits.

TOR had a bunch on both sides, and a fair amount of expansion compared to the golden age of the sith, but they were also killing each other a lot.

Ditto New Sith Wars.

CW only had big numbers on one side, and the clone wars lowered them.

Legacy had two pretty big organizations, but the massacre on Ossus and following purges reduced the numbers a lot.

Nephthys
Probably TOR since the Empire was sending everyone with a hint of sensitivity to Korriban to drive up numbers.

axel_jovan
@ Q99
Agreed with prettty much all of your estimations, but I would say that "the highest" HIGH is Clone Wars era.

You have Sidious and Yoda combo, the strongest of their respective orders up to that point.
Than you have powerhouses like Dooku, Mace, Anakin (ZonE) who would smack most of previously living characters.
Oh, and Plagueis with his midi-chlorian manipualtion and beastly feats.
Maul and Savage are beasts. Ventress's good.
Some pretty strong Jedi are around like Shaaki Ti, Obi-Wan, Depa, BARRIS stick out tongue


I'd also join KatoR Revan's War and Triumvirate, that would make it MEDIUM probably.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by axel_jovan
BARRIS stick out tongue

http://i.qkme.me/3qmexz.jpg

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Q99
All very good points. Still, that only adds one.
Limited content is the issue in this case.

Originally posted by Q99
It is a big accomplishment, but it was won mostly through the Republican's conventional forces, and the Empress Teta and her armies.

Jedi rarely clashed with Sith directly during the war, and those clashes were not the important points. The Jedi played some strategic role holding off sith sorcery, but that was about it. The key turning point was actually a Republic force-sensitive he had duped turning on him

It's not like the Exar Kun war where you had the Jedi scorch a planet with a wall of light- the Jedi in the Hyperspace War fought some Massassi, Sith Soldiers, and probably some minor lords, of which we don't know the details of. If there were any epic duels or great shows of the force, we don't know about it.
SWTOR is promoting the notion that Jedi played a significant role in the defeat of Sith forces in the Great Hyperspace War. This is why I am advocating caution for this particular era.

Originally posted by Q99
He set things in motion, but was personally very distant from them.
Bro, isn't this thread about an "era" and not just "events"?

Originally posted by Q99
I agree- there was a half-dozen or so powerful Sith in the Brotherhood (including Bane), but no truly uber ones like Vitiate.

But there were still more of them than in some other eras.
I disagree with the botton statement. Their were plenty of strong Sith in different eras. Issue once again is limited information.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, I'd say it's more complex than that. Post TOR, things went in decline for awhile... but then things got a lot better with Darth Ruin and the Fourth Great Schism that started the New Sith Wars. For awhile, their lords were said to be incredibly powerful. But, in turn, once Belia Darzu fell, no-one was able to unite them for centuries, and they did go downhill as you say until Bane.

The reason why Kaan was able to do as much as he did was because said greater lords had already worn down the Republic so much.
This is from Star Wars web based encyclopedia:

An ancient order of Force-practitioners devoted to the dark side and determined to destroy the Jedi, the Sith were a menace long thought extinct. Thousands of years ago, a rogue Jedi had come to the understanding that the true power of the Force lay not through contemplation and passivity. Only by tapping its dark side could its true potential be gained. The Jedi Council at the time balked at this new direction. The dark Jedi was outcast, but he eventually gained followers to his new order.

With the promise of new powers attainable by tapping into the hateful energies of the dark side, it was only a matter of time before the order self-destructed. Power-hungry Sith practitioners fought amongst themselves and dwindled their numbers. Weakened by infighting, the Sith were easily wiped out by the Jedi.

One Sith had the cunning to survive. Darth Bane restructured the cult, so that there could only be two -- no more, no less -- a master, and an apprentice. Bane adopted cunning, subterfuge, and stealth as the fundamental tenets of the Sith Order. Bane took an apprentice. When that apprentice succeeded him, that new Sith Lord would take an apprentice.

Thus, the Sith quietly continued for centuries, until the time of Darth Sidious...

It offers a glimpse of what I also believe.

Originally posted by Q99
Ok, but that has to do with Palpatine's brilliant plan to have their own army turned on them. I'm just talking about the total number of high-power force users here, which the CW era had in abundance, even if many of them did end up walking into a giant trap.
I don't buy the "abundance" part, bro.

We get to experience PT through the stories of the most prominent members of the Jedi Order. This is why we find this era impressive.

Once again! Limited content on older times becomes an issue to ascertain the competency of Jedi Order in older eras.

Originally posted by Q99
Agreed. Heck, I would argue quite a few eras rate higher in competence than the CW era, just the CW era has a lot of force power.
Not force power but rather martial development. Even then, majority isn't as competent with sabers as the prominent ones are.

The prominent Jedi of this era are; Yoda; Mace; Anakin; Obi-Wan. Among these, only Yoda and Mace are powerhouses in true sense.

The Sith of this era are already very thin in number. Sidious alone shouldn't tip the scales in favour of HIGH.

MEDIUM rank is decent for this era, IMO.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm just noting that a lot of them were noted to be specifically very force impressive in the absolute sense. Yoda, Mace, Palpatine, you could drop any of these three into the MEDIUM or LOW eras and they'd usually be the strongest, occasionally the second strongest. Only in the HIGH eras would they find multiple peers in terms of power.
I agree with the Yoda, Mace and Palpatine part but I still don't get the other part.

Q99
Yea. If I revise it, I think I'll mention both ways of doing it.



To an extent, but we know half the sith council of the time. That's not inconsiderable.



Don't get me wrong, even with what we've seen, they did.

But possibly the single biggest and most helpful thing a Jedi did was when Jedi Master Ooroo, who breathed in a poisoning gas, broke his tank and poisoned a bunch of elite units all at once, holding off the tide of Massassi warriors in the battle of Kirrek

Similarly, Odan-Urr's force vision is why a defense of Coruscant was ready, and the defense was lead by four masters.

However, in Kirrek, Odan-Urr tried using battle meditation but it was ineffective until Naga Sadow's control was disrupted and reinforcements arrived, and in Coruscant, the Jedi were simply holding off until Naga's illusions fell and they were able to properly target only the real Sith forces.

Naga Sadow's influence in turn ending not because of the Jedi's actions, but an apprentice turning on him.

Without the Jedi, they would've never lasted long enough for that to happen, but the Jedi were not able to turn the battles with the force. They appeared competent, reasonably skilled, but didn't show the same level of power that the Jedi of the Exar Kun war- who only got a bit more page time- did.




Yea, yea, it's written as eras, but still, I like to separate it by geography. There's too many groups and people in stasis and people in hiding at almost any time.




We know some of the eras pretty well.

Heck, often we know there's, like, two strong sith by design!



But we've also seen some of these strong people compared to people of different eras. And we've seen a fair amount of some other eras and still not seen near as many powerhouses.

If there were a couple Yoda/Mace/Dooku/etc. level people in KotoR, we'd know!

And a lot of the time, just because we see Jedi from their point of view, they still don't come off as power houses.




Sidious and Dooku. And I disagree with leaving out Anakin and Obi-wan. Anakin was a beast at the end, and Obi-wan was able to do stuff like, not just hold off against Anakin, but also fight two strong warriors like Maul and Opress at the same time.

While not the uber-high level of Sidious and Yoda, Anakin and Obi-wan and such are still high tier by the standards I'm using on other eras.

S_W_LeGenD
Well, if you want to be selective then this debate isn't going to progress much further. Thanks for sharing some information though.

Q99
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well, if you want to be selective then this debate isn't going to progress much further. Thanks for sharing some information though.

Don't get me wrong, I'm liking the input and different ways of seeing things ^^ I'm explaining why I did what I did, but other suggestions = good thing.

Q99
Can you think of anything else I might've left out?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Q99
Sidious and Dooku. And I disagree with leaving out Anakin and Obi-wan. Anakin was a beast at the end, and Obi-wan was able to do stuff like, not just hold off against Anakin, but also fight two strong warriors like Maul and Opress at the same time.


Maul had confirmed that he didn't actually plan on killing Kenobi. We see how effortlessly Maul has ragdolled Obi Wan around with the force on numerous occasions and how quickly he took Obi Wan out after Obi Wan managed to cut off Savage's arm. So IMO, Maul is higher than Obi Wan, and should probably be placed up there, especially considering his impressive TK feats.

I'd also place the CW era as high. They have some of the best saber duelists. And while it was not as common for them to face a sith as other eras, they were prepared for them as Yoda mused during his fight with Sidious (ROTS novel).

Q99
Yea, the Clone War Jedi were basically set up to fight a Sith army.

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