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I created a very similar thread to this in the prequel thread, but it was locked because it was not the EU subforum, and without bringing up the EU, as the moderator and I both noticed, the discussion wasn't really progressing or going anywhere. So, I'm creating a similar thread in the EU subforum.

The Sith started the clone wars and they were responsible for the naboo invasion, all evil deeds, not to mention the destruction of alderaan with the death star (and more possible planets being destroyed with the death star in the future had they won the war) and the jedi order, and Palpatine's EU other imperial atrocities.

However, there is much indication that even before all of those evil things that Palpatine did happened, the Jedi and the sith were enemies for a long time before that, due to specific Sith actions that the films never explained.

In TPM, the jedi council talked about the Sith as if some ancient enemy that has returned from a thousand years ago, and they thought were extinct. This proves that even long before Palpatine's imperial atrocities, the Sith were considered to be evil.

And, also, the Force went out of it's way to create a person-Anakin Skywalker, to kill the Sith, long before any of Palpatine's atrocities ever happened. A Jedi seer told a century old prophecy about that.

And, most of all, in ROTS, Mace Windu and Palpatine's dialogue all together imply that the Sith once ruled the galaxy, and that "the Sith oppression will never return". The Sith were an ancient enemy that once ruled the galaxy in oppresion.

Mace Windu went to arrest Palpatine not just because he started the clone wars, but because he knew that the Sith were just evil in general. But yet Windu had no idea about the Sith building the death star, and neither did the other jedi, and yet, they still thought that sith were evil in general.

And, Padme refused to join Anakin as a Sith to rule the galaxy, but she had no idea about the death star, yet she just knew that the Sith were evil and had a very bad reputation.

But, why were the Sith evil, before all of Palpatine's atrocities, such as the death star and starting wars, etc?

I'm not talking about Palpatine's obvious evilness, it's obvious that he did evil things such as blowing up planets and starting wars just to gain more power. I'm talking about the Sith in general.

What atrocities did the old Sith (from over a millenia ago), do, that made them evil? None of this is ever specified in the films, so I'm asking some of the EU experts to explain the Sith's evilness to me.

Have you not played The Old Republic?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Have you not played The Old Republic?

I should play that game very soon. It's in my room. My brother bought it. It seems very dark and interesting.

As I had stated before, I love the idea that the Sith are not JUST evil because they have a death star. The death star is just one of the evil things that they do, but they would be totally evil even without it, and even without the death star, people still know that the Sith are evil by their pattern of evil actions/behavior (and the death star is a part of that).

However, the movies don't really tell us why the Sith were evil, other than of course Palpatine's imperial atrocities, which don't really explain the Sith in general or the evil reputation that he had as a Sith (even without the death star, as Mace Windu had no idea about the death star, yet he still went to arrest/kill Palpatine to stop the Sith oppression from ever returning).

The movies don't tell us, no, but the EU does.

Basically (and this is the very abridged version of it as I understand it), centuries before the PT a guy called Naga Sadow led a Sith Empire that was as powerful in many ways as the Galactic Republic. When they made contact, the Great Hyperspace War started, in which the Sith Empire basically tried to wipe out the Republic itself.

They're known as tyrants because they were the aggressors in arguably the galaxy's largest, most brutal war.

And if you take the game as being canon (to the EU, as contradictory as that might seem), they tried to wipe out the Jedi Order while at the same time pretending to want peace.

I'd read this if you want more details: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire

Originally posted by -Pr-
The movies don't tell us, no, but the EU does.

Basically (and this is the very abridged version of it as I understand it), centuries before the PT a guy called Naga Sadow led a Sith Empire that was as powerful in many ways as the Galactic Republic. When they made contact, the Great Hyperspace War started, in which the Sith Empire basically tried to wipe out the Republic itself.

They're known as tyrants because they were the aggressors in arguably the galaxy's largest, most brutal war.

And if you take the game as being canon (to the EU, as contradictory as that might seem), they tried to wipe out the Jedi Order while at the same time pretending to want peace.

I'd read this if you want more details: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire

I assume the Sith Empire existed outside of the Galactic Republic. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wookipedia is too long and convulted for me to read.

And, how exactly did the Sith meeting up with the Republic start the great hyperspace war? Were the Sith trying to take over the Republic for themselves (kinda like how the germans tried to take over europe and the rest of the world during ww2)?

Why did the Old republic Sith want to wipe out the Jedi order? Didn't the Jedi persecute them first due to philosophical differences in the Force (a jedi seer had a prophecy that one day a special jedi knight would kill the Sith, the Chosen One anakin skywalker)?

I'll try to be as brief as possible.

Some of the Jedi turned to the dark side. Later, some of these jedi started using the force to perform experiments on animals and other creatures, making them dark and twisted. They wanted to be able to continue their force manipulations, but the good jedi were having none of it. A war started, and when the republic won, the jedi chose to banish their kin rather than execute them as the republic wanted.

so the banished "dark jedi" ended up on korriban, meeting the sith species. they interbred with them, and started the sith cult. the sith species were incredibly force sensitive, so this new "master race" made the dark jedi's offspring incredibly powerful. they built their own empire light years away from the republic, and basically the two groups left each other alone for a time. the sith even began to forget all about the republic.

then, a ship carrying a couple of republic explorers landed on korriban. thinking about all the worlds he could enslave, Naga Sadow manipulated events to convince the Sith to invade the republic. so they did. thus began the great hyperspace war.

they were the aggressors, the bad guys. the sith tried to wipe out the republic and the jedi order out of revenge and bitterness and a lust for power.

put simply, they're dicks.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'll try to be as brief as possible.

Some of the Jedi turned to the dark side. Later, some of these jedi started using the force to perform experiments on animals and other creatures, making them dark and twisted. They wanted to be able to continue their force manipulations, but the good jedi were having none of it. A war started, and when the republic won, the jedi chose to banish their kin rather than execute them as the republic wanted.

so the banished "dark jedi" ended up on korriban, meeting the sith species. they interbred with them, and started the sith cult. the sith species were incredibly force sensitive, so this new "master race" made the dark jedi's offspring incredibly powerful. they built their own empire light years away from the republic, and basically the two groups left each other alone for a time. the sith even began to forget all about the republic.

then, a ship carrying a couple of republic explorers landed on korriban. thinking about all the worlds he could enslave, Naga Sadow manipulated events to convince the Sith to invade the republic. so they did. thus began the great hyperspace war.

they were the aggressors, the bad guys. the sith tried to wipe out the republic and the jedi order out of revenge and bitterness and a lust for power.

put simply, they're dicks.

Didn't the Jedi begin the hostilies with the Sith by not allowing them to practice their own religion?

What exactly do you mean by Sith expriments on animals? How exactly was that evil? Who cares? The darkside by itself is just a religion that the Sith practice. It doesn't really harm anybody all that much.

Please send me a link to what you mean by "sith experiments on animals and other creatures".

You proved my point. The Jedi initiated the hostilies with the Sith. The sith were not the agressors. The Jedi were.

Did the Sith want to take over the republic (like hitler wanted to take over all of europe and over parts of the world and put it under his control)?

I gave you a link already

No, the Jedi didn't initiate hostilities with the Sith. The Jedi banished those from their order that wanted to use the Darkside for dark purposes and to abuse and misuse their abilities. They were using the dark side to twist these creatures to serve them as an army.

They were doing bad things with their powers; if it had been a difference in ideology and nothing else, the Jedi probably wouldn't have cared. But the dark jedi wanted to recruit more to their cause, and to continue what they were doing.

When they (the dark Jedi) went to Korriban, they didn't just interbreed with the Sith species, they made them treat them as gods.

The Sith Empire initiated hostilities with the Jedi and the Republic by invading. They're the bad guys in this scenario. They were banished for being bad guys, and their descendants, wanting power and to conquer, tried to take over the Republic.

So yes, Sadow wanted to conquer and to rule like a galactic hitler of sorts.

The Sith want power, to rule. The Sith kept slaves. They used the dark side of the force to hold sway over less powerful species. You might understand some of what they did, but compared to them, the Jedi are practically saints.

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
Didn't the Jedi begin the hostilies with the Sith by not allowing them to practice their own religion?

What exactly do you mean by Sith expriments on animals? How exactly was that evil? Who cares? The darkside by itself is just a religion that the Sith practice. It doesn't really harm anybody all that much.

The Sith were an offshoot of the Jedi originally- they did not start as a separate philosophy.

They were a group of Jedi interested in using the force in ways the other Jedi considered unethical, most notably life-modification, as reflected in the creation of Leviathans, which were created during the war and are often considered the masterpieces of this group.

Leviathans were living weapons that absorbed the life-energy of targets, capturing them and draining them until they died, and as a side-effect gaining their knowledge and power, which they would use to hunt others of their kind. So, pretty nasty pieces of work!

These Jedi first began with the experimentation (Leviathans coming later). Other Jedi expressed reluctance and gave warning, but tried to distance themselves from the future Sith (that is to say, they did not take an aggressive stance). These Jedi acted to try and convince the other Jedi of their ways, it became an argument, and then at some point violence erupted. Things continued to escalate, in a conflict known as the Hundred Years Darkness.


Once this group of Jedi were defeated, they were sent into exile, where they landed on Korriban, the home planet of the Sith species. They took control of it and declared themselves the Dark Lords of the Sith.

No further contact was made for about 2,000 years where, encountering two explorers from the Republic (non-Jedi), the Lord of the Sith Naga Sadow used this knowledge to find the Republic and launch a surprise invasion, which was defeated. A Republic counter-attack combined with Sith infighting destroyed the Old Sith Empire. This, by the way, is probably one of the bigger sources of Sith grudge- the Old Sith Empire was destroyed while the Republic lived, but it was in response to a war the Sith launched.


Then the next several Sith lords simply took inspiration from the Sith of old. Exar Kun was a Jedi who killed his master when his mastered cautioned him about studying the dark side, then used the Krath warrior cult and the Mandalorians to try and kill the Jedi and take over the galaxy, for example.

PR- I'm going to go out of a limb and guess that our guest wasn't entirely happy with your answer ^^

Possibly; perhaps I came on too strong, as I have been known to do that.

Honestly, most of what I know about that era is from reading the codexes in TOR, and a couple of wikis, so I might not have all the information. Still, if there's one thing Star Wars is pretty adamant about, it's that the Sith are antagonists. They're the bad guys, and (playing TOR) being the bad guy can be incredibly fun. The Sith seem to revel in it. They don't even pretend half the time that they're morally ambiguous. They just want power, and they'll do anything to get it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Possibly; perhaps I came on too strong, as I have been known to do that.

I don't think so- I think it's more the person was looking for a reason to paint the Sith as not-so-bad and, well, there isn't one!


... though, to be fair, if one goes all the way back to the Legion of Lettow, the first pre-Sith darkside order, there's a much better argument. They arose during a time when the Jedi were particularly strong on doctrine, which side started the war was unknown, and they never got up to as much evil as the Hundred Year Darkness Sith.

They were still darksiders and the one we know personally (due to being locked in stasis for millennia) was a pretty destructive individual who willingly served Sidious as an Emperor's Hand, then turned on him and didn't join the Rebellion, but rather allied with an Imperial Grand Admiral to try a coup. So not exactly a great bunch, but not as bad as the Sith and the Sith claim no direct linage, though some of the early Hundred Year Darkness teachings were likely based on Legion of Lettow teachings, but with more emphasis on power and less on freedom.




Overall you're pretty bang-on.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think so- I think it's more the person was looking for a reason to paint the Sith as not-so-bad and, well, there isn't one!


... though, to be fair, if one goes all the way back to the Legion of Lettow, the first pre-Sith darkside order, there's a much better argument. They arose during a time when the Jedi were particularly strong on doctrine, which side started the war was unknown, and they never got up to as much evil as the Hundred Year Darkness Sith.

They were still darksiders and the one we know personally (due to being locked in stasis for millennia) was a pretty destructive individual who willingly served Sidious as an Emperor's Hand, then turned on him and didn't join the Rebellion, but rather allied with an Imperial Grand Admiral to try a coup. So not exactly a great bunch, but not as bad as the Sith and the Sith claim no direct linage, though some of the early Hundred Year Darkness teachings were likely based on Legion of Lettow teachings, but with more emphasis on power and less on freedom.




Overall you're pretty bang-on.

Agreed about the Sith. They're delightfully evil, which is great.

Who was locked in stasis? Sounds like something i'd want to read about.

Ah, cool.

Interesting. I remember the game, but not the storyline so much.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Interesting. I remember the game, but not the storyline so much.

Oh, in the game she didn't have much, it was fleshed out in the strategy guide, other articles, and so on. Once the character existed, people added on to her story.

Like, did you ever play TIE fighter? And how there was one mission where Zaarin tried to kidnap Palpatine and you had to help rescue him?

It was later retconned/added in that the strike force to do so was lead by her and her pupils.



Originally posted by -Pr-
Agreed about the Sith. They're delightfully evil, which is great.

One fun example is when Lord Dreypa, one of the original lords, arrived at the planet of the Lost Tribe of the Sith.

His reaction, approximately? "A lost tribe of the sith? Sounds weak! I'm going to take it over, then use it as a base to launch an assault on the galaxy."

They don't even pretend to play nice with each other ^^

I never played tie fighter, no. I missed out on a lot of early 90s star wars games. Interesting how they added it though.

Yeah, when the Sith get going, they're pretty outlandish.

That's not to say, though, that Sith were completely without redeemable qualities. They could feel love, compassion etc, it just clashed with their darker nature. Look at Anakin and Darth Malgus. Sith may revel in being evil with one another, but that doesn't make them one-dimensional cardboard villains.

Heck, even TOR (dunno if you'd played it) gives you more than one romance option that makes you wonder if you should be as vicious as you've been in the game so far.

Yea, Sith are rarely all evil, all the time, even as evil as they are. Their individual less-bad areas varies, but most have some. They are, after all, human (/twilek/bith/sith/chalgian/etc. etc.).

The One Sith are surprisingly loyal.

The Brotherhood of Darkness had fewer internal schisms than the Jedi of the same time, to the point that Bane felt they were un-sith.

Plageius was only killed because he grew to trust Palpatine too much. One suspects part of the master/apprentice thing is that without *someone* they can related to, they'd go stir crazy.

And it's not exactly rare for a Sith to compartmentalize their personal life and their sith life in The Old Republic's Sith Empire and similar.

Indeed. Husband/wife might go off to work and subjugate an entire planet, but they still want someone to come home to.

That's one advantage I always felt the Sith had over the Jedi: They use their emotions productively. Even Jedi, who are supposed to be compassionate, are way too rigid, imo, when it comes to their own feelings and how they interact with the order. I mean, look at the top guys in the order; Obi-Wan had Satine/Siri; Anakin had Padme. Hell, even Fisto was involved with Aayla, iirc. They all had relationships, and were still the best of the best.

That's one thing the New Jedi Order improved on. They didn't try to push relationships to the side so much. Partially by necessity, but it worked.

In TOR, Satele Shan barely knew her son. In Legacy, Kol Skywalker raised Cade personally.

Originally posted by Q99
That's one thing the New Jedi Order improved on. They didn't try to push relationships to the side so much. Partially by necessity, but it worked.

In TOR, Satele Shan barely knew her son. In Legacy, Kol Skywalker raised Cade personally.

Satele has a son?

I didn't even know that.

I'm still trying to get caught up on he NJO stuff. I only started reading Vector Prime the other day.

With the Jedi order, I always felt there was an, if you'll excuse the expression, a "don't ask don't tell" kind of thing when it came to relationships. As long as you kept it to yourself, they wouldn't boot you out of the order, etc.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Satele has a son?

I didn't even know that.

Yep, Theron Shan. He starred in a comic and a novel.

He's a non-force sensitive secret agent. Satele's master (who was a bit senile) tried to train him as a Jedi when he was very young to no success.




Well, the Vong saga is a loooong one, I wouldn't recommend reading through the whole thing ^^

Although I will recommend the comics of the Vong story, Star Wars: Invasion.

(As you might soon realize, I think the comics have a generally higher level of quality compared to the up-and-down novels)




Yea, you don't get married or such, but you have relations.

As opposed to Luke's New Jedi Order, where he was married to a council member. About a third the council was married or had similar relationships...

The name sounds familiar, now that I think about it. Still, she looks very young to have a grown up son, assuming he is i mean.

I'll look up Invasion, and see how it goes. Thanks for the recommendation.

Luke does seem like the kind of guy that would be more progressive. It certainly felt that way in the Jedi Knight games.

Originally posted by -Pr-
The name sounds familiar, now that I think about it. Still, she looks very young to have a grown up son, assuming he is i mean.

I'll look up Invasion, and see how it goes. Thanks for the recommendation.

Luke does seem like the kind of guy that would be more progressive. It certainly felt that way in the Jedi Knight games.

The jedi were the agressors against the Sith because they exiled them first, because of their religious differences in the Force.

Second of all, were the Old Republic video game sith trying to take over the galaxy to rule them and control the galaxy? If so, how exactly was the Sith rule's "oppressive"? They didn't have the death star back then?

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
The jedi were the agressors against the Sith because they exiled them first, because of their religious differences in the Force.

Second of all, were the Old Republic video game sith trying to take over the galaxy to rule them and control the galaxy? If so, how exactly was the Sith rule's "oppressive"? They didn't have the death star back then?

The Jedi defended themselves against the other Jedi that were using the dark side to try and gain more power. They acted in self defence, and were not the aggressors.

They didn't need the death star; they had fleets of warships, star destroyers, and armies of sith warriors.

An example of Sith aggression:

DOvbv-LkK6w

If you want to imagine what the Sith were, imagine the Empire as it was in the original trilogy. Now, imagine that part of it is also an order of Sith warriors like the Jedi order. Now, imagine that these guys are invading the Republic.

They didn't invade because of what the Jedi did thousands of years ago. They invaded because Naga Sadow wanted to conquer and rule everything he could.

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
The jedi were the agressors against the Sith because they exiled them first, because of their religious differences in the Force.

Second of all, were the Old Republic video game sith trying to take over the galaxy to rule them and control the galaxy? If so, how exactly was the Sith rule's "oppressive"? They didn't have the death star back then?

wasn't religious belief but more a matter of morals.
Have you taken the time to read anything anyone has tried to show you? Or are you just waiting for someone to agree with you? I honestly curious at this point.

I honestly feel like i've gotten off topic, so i'll be brief.

The original question was why the Sith are considered the bad guys.

The answer is:

The Sith are considered the bad guys because of the Great Hyperspace War.

The Great Hyperspace War was started by the Sith when they invaded the Republic.

The Sith invaded the Republic because Naga Sadow had lied and convinced the other Sith that the Republic was out to get them.

For the most part, any record of the Jedi banishing members of their order had been lost. The invasion was one of pure aggression and a lust for power.

Originally posted by SevenShackles
^wasn't religious belief but more a matter of morals.
Have you taken the time to read anything anyone has tried to show you? Or are you just waiting for someone to agree with you? I honestly curious at this point.

They exiled the Sith because of them building up armies of mutated animals? What the......

Is that a reference to Sith alchemy, or something else?

In ROTS, Palpatine told anakin that, "the darkside of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural".

It was about religious differences in the Force, the Jedi were afraid of certain abilities of the Force, and, as Palpatine told Anakin later on in ROTS, that he must embrace a larger view of the Force, not a narrow dogmatic view of it.

Some SW fans that I talk to tell me that the Jedi's animosity with the sith has absolutley nothing to do with their views on the Force, but rather, with evil actions that the Sith do that are unrealated to the Force. I've proven them wrong now. The Jedi don't like the Sith because of different ways that they practice the Force.

Which basically makes the Jedi agressors since they exiled the Sith, which violated their freedom of religion.

Except that Palpatine was, for lack of a better term, talking out of his ass.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Except that Palpatine was, for lack of a better term, talking out of his ass.

Elaborate more upon that, bro!

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
Elaborate more upon that, bro!

We have no proof that anything Palpatine said was true. And like I said, the Sith were considered the bad guys because of the Hyperspace War, which they started all because they wanted to conquer, and nothing more.

Originally posted by -Pr-
We have no proof that anything Palpatine said was true. And like I said, the Sith were considered the bad guys because of the Hyperspace War, which they started all because they wanted to conquer, and nothing more.

There is a large difference between conquering and destruction. Some other KMC forums users told me that the Sith wanted to destroy the republic, which implies, to quote tv tropes.com, chaotic evilness, a desire to do evil things for the sake of doing them.

Conquering land is what the Nazis did, they found land and they basically waged wars (which did involved a lot of destruction), but the end goal was to control and take over that land for themselves.

However, bringing balance to the Force seems to heavily imply that the Sith's destruction fixes something in the Force, which is all about religious views on the Force between the Jedi and the Sith. Which sort of implies that even if a Sith wasn't involved in creating dictatorships, the Jedi would still kill him/her to bring balance to the Force.

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
The jedi were the agressors against the Sith because they exiled them first, because of their religious differences in the Force.

The pre-Sith who were exiled started their conflict, and their "religious differences" involved making monsters that ate people's life forces.

The exile happened after a hundred-year long war that plunged the galaxy into darkness. They didn't just grab some people who were off minding their own business and toss them on a ship. They took a military surrender from people who had persecuted a war for a century and allowed them to leave.

And then those people immediately conquered the planet they landed on.




Yes they were, and they had mass slavery and a large military they enforced it with.

You don't need to have a death star to oppress people.




Because the pre-Sith experimented with life to create Leviathans, who drained people's life and knowledge in order to better kill them, as well as other experimentation, including on intelligent beings.

For the purpose of control and conquest, mind.





Funny thing, Palpatine had no idea how to do what he said.

And the ability to twist life really wouldn't have solved anything. Heck, the only reason Padme was in danger was a war Palpatine started!



You say 'religious differences,' but 'trying to take over the galaxy' and 'twist life to one's will' is a bit more than a religious difference.

I mean, I guess it could be said so in the same sense that wanted to stop human sacrifice is a religious difference... but you'd still consider human sacrifice evil and worth stopping, yes?



Another example, one of the original Exiles created a plague that turned all that infected into almost-animalistic beasts called Rakghouls- almost, because he enslaved the Rakghouls to his will if he was present. If not, then they would simply spread, kill, and infect others. Biowarfare with a plague that erases people's identities.

Originally posted by Q99
The pre-Sith who were exiled started their conflict, and their "religious differences" involved making monsters that ate people's life forces.

The exile happened after a hundred-year long war that plunged the galaxy into darkness. They didn't just grab some people who were off minding their own business and toss them on a ship. They took a military surrender from people who had persecuted a war for a century and allowed them to leave.

And then those people immediately conquered the planet they landed on.




Yes they were, and they had mass slavery and a large military they enforced it with.

You don't need to have a death star to oppress people.




Because the pre-Sith experimented with life to create Leviathans, who drained people's life and knowledge in order to better kill them, as well as other experimentation, including on intelligent beings.

For the purpose of control and conquest, mind.





Funny thing, Palpatine had no idea how to do what he said.

And the ability to twist life really wouldn't have solved anything. Heck, the only reason Padme was in danger was a war Palpatine started!



You say 'religious differences,' but 'trying to take over the galaxy' and 'twist life to one's will' is a bit more than a religious difference.

I mean, I guess it could be said so in the same sense that wanted to stop human sacrifice is a religious difference... but you'd still consider human sacrifice evil and worth stopping, yes?



Another example, one of the original Exiles created a plague that turned all that infected into almost-animalistic beasts called Rakghouls- almost, because he enslaved the Rakghouls to his will if he was present. If not, then they would simply spread, kill, and infect others. Biowarfare with a plague that erases people's identities.

Why exactly did Emperor Vitate destroy that planet? Also, how many planets did he destroy with the Force?

Why did Darth Nihluis destroy a planet, too?

How many planets did the pre-Palpatine Sith destroy (either by bombings or with the Force)? I'm trying to learn more about the "oppression of the Sith" that mace windu spoke about.

No, Padme was in danger not because of the clone wars but because of anakin's paranoia after shmi's death/a self fullfilling prophecy about her death in childbirth.

Please elabroate more on the Sith experimentation on intelligent beings and warping and creating artifical life, other than the leviathans.

Wait, the same reason the jedi have animosity betweeen the Sith IS about religous differences on the Force, sorta like how some religious people are against cloning, which is similar to the ethical issues about Sith "unnaturally creating" life.

Please send me links about the "sith slavery".

I read somewhere on a star wars forum site that the Sith killed their own officers if their boots weren't polished the right way? Is that true or not?

Why don't you take the time to go read on wookiepedia and get your answers (do research) instead of asking for others to find links and proof for you? It's rather easy.

Originally posted by SevenShackles
Why don't you take the time to go read on wookiepedia and get your answers (do research) instead of asking for others to find links and proof for you? It's rather easy.

Because Wookipedia's articles are too long and confusing and "all over the place", meaning that everything is organized into seperate articles that are hard for me to interpert/understand.

God, I remember the Rakghoul plague in TOR. That was a shitstorm if ever there was one.

Originally posted by -Pr-
God, I remember the Rakghoul plague in TOR. That was a shitstorm if ever there was one.


Oooh, it reoccured in that era? That probably ups the kill-count- the 60 million I mentioned were just from earlier.

Originally posted by Q99
Oooh, it reoccured in that era? That probably ups the kill-count- the 60 million I mentioned were just from earlier.

Yeah, Tatooine was where the quest chain would start. They were even letting you get infected as players, and you could actually infect other players, creating an epidemic if you so wished to. The game actually had ways to stop it spreading, but people, clever as they are, got around it.

_b9kJAGTuXo

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5


Darth Nilhius destroyed an entire planet because he was hungry? Is this some kinda joke to me? No, what was the real reason that Darth nilhius destroyed that planet? Would it have happened if the Jedi didn't oppose the Sith?

Taken from wiki page.



so he wasn't hungry for a hotdog, he craves force energy.

Originally posted by SevenShackles
Taken from wiki page.



so he wasn't hungry for a hotdog, he craves force energy.

What planet (s) did darth nihlius destroy with the Force?

Didn't emperor vitate destroy a planet in order to save his life from the jedi?

Would Darth nihlius have destroyed that planet (s) if there was no opposition from the Jedi?

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
Yes, people can be oppressed without planetary annihilation, that's true. Stalin didn't have any superweapons that he used to obledierate cities, yet he's still considered to be an evil dictator, just like Hitler, because a person doesn't have to destroy entire planets to be evil, if they do other evil stuff.

However, planetary destruction by the Sith seems to be the most interesting and "epic" and "fantasy like".

They can make even non-planetary destruction pretty epic at times I mean, a sufficiently big galactic war causes more deaths than a planet being destroyed.


It's not like the Jedi- or the people of the galaxy- only count it if it's epic.




Yep.




Agreed. But they only use it twice.




Darth Nihilus was a 'wound in the force'. This inflicted him with a terrible hunger that he sated by devouring life, something his Sith master taught him to do, although none other could do it on such a grand scale. His hunger grew and the amount he killed grew.

His Sith master created him to be a weapon against life, basically.

He wouldn't stop just because there aren't Jedi around- there were very few Jedi left at that point, one of the lower points of the order, and they were not his priority. The Sith at that time were not focused on Jedi repression or any such thing- in fact, they had been a Jedi army until their leader turned to the dark side and started turning them too. The Sith of the time generally desired control and power. The older Sith were just history books and sources of knowledge and power to them, not people they cared about what happened to. The Jedi only became aware that they'd turned Sith after these Sith attacked.


And if it wasn't for the Jedi Meetra Surik, one of the few survivors, Nihilus certainly would've done it again.

The Sith crave power, death and destruction regardless of the Jedi existing. They're not evil because the Jedi made them evil; they're evil because the dark side corrupts. Or they're just bad people to begin with.

Originally posted by Q99
They can make even non-planetary destruction pretty epic at times I mean, a sufficiently big galactic war causes more deaths than a planet being destroyed.


It's not like the Jedi- or the people of the galaxy- only count it if it's epic.




Yep.




Agreed. But they only use it twice.




Darth Nihilus was a 'wound in the force'. This inflicted him with a terrible hunger that he sated by devouring life, something his Sith master taught him to do, although none other could do it on such a grand scale. His hunger grew and the amount he killed grew.

His Sith master created him to be a weapon against life, basically.

He wouldn't stop just because there aren't Jedi around- there were very few Jedi left at that point, one of the lower points of the order, and they were not his priority. The Sith at that time were not focused on Jedi repression or any such thing- in fact, they had been a Jedi army until their leader turned to the dark side and started turning them too. The Sith of the time generally desired control and power. The older Sith were just history books and sources of knowledge and power to them, not people they cared about what happened to. The Jedi only became aware that they'd turned Sith after these Sith attacked.


And if it wasn't for the Jedi Meetra Surik, one of the few survivors, Nihilus certainly would've done it again.

What does him being a "wound in the force" even mean, in the first place? Who inflicted him with a terrible hunger? Do you mean a hunger for tasty foods? And who's "they"?

His Sith master was chaotic evil, or not?

Which planet(s) did darth nihlius destroy?

How many planets did he destroy? I read somewhere that nihlius bombed a planet without using the Force, implying to me that he destroyed many different planets.

Originally posted by -Pr-
The Sith crave power, death and destruction regardless of the Jedi existing. They're not evil because the Jedi made them evil; they're evil because the dark side corrupts. Or they're just bad people to begin with.

Do all Sith desire political power, or not?

Out of the Sith that don't try to be dictators that rule the galaxy, what do they do? What's wrong with them just practicing the darkside? Not every darksider is involved with politics?

Anakin turning to the darkside to me, to save padme, doesn't automatically mean becoming a dictator and ruling an empire just to save one person. Turning to the darkside and/or becoming a sith doesn't automatically make you involved in grand politics.

Are there any instances of the Jedi allowing darksiders to do their own thing, as long as they don't bother/interfere with other people, in the history of the EU star wars universe?

Wait, so the Sith are some sorta political group, with the whole desiring power and whatnot?

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
What does him being a "wound in the force" even mean, in the first place? Who inflicted him with a terrible hunger? Do you mean a hunger for tasty foods? And who's "they"?

His Sith master was chaotic evil, or not?

Which planet(s) did darth nihlius destroy?

How many planets did he destroy? I read somewhere that nihlius bombed a planet without using the Force, implying to me that he destroyed many different planets.

Didn't bother to read what I put on Darth Nihlius did you. I explains why he has the hunger for the most part.

Originally posted by SevenShackles
Didn't bother to read what I put on Darth Nihlius did you. I explains why he has the hunger for the most part.

Was darth nihlius politically motivated or not?

Wait, so Darth nihlius felt the desire to consume life with the force, or just to kill in general?

Ok, you know how when Alderaan was destroyed, Obi-wan felt a disturbance in the force, even though he was halfway across the galaxy?

Darth Nihilus- before he was Darth Nihilus- was right next to one of those (On Malachor V- Two great fleets were crashed into a populated planet from orbit during a war).

His reaction to feeling so much death was extreme, and in response to feeling so much death, he tried to fill it with life- his 'hunger,' and his master helped teach him how to do that and make it grow.



Darth Traya. And she wanted to destroy the Force Itself because she blamed it for conflict in the galaxy. Which was, before you ask, probably not even possible and she was probably a bit crazy, but yes, she wanted to destroy the force itself.

Or at least so she claimed. She also lied a lot.

So yea, pretty evil.



Katarr.



There was probably some other planetary bombardment going on during that conflict, yea, but I don't know how much.

That might've simply been the incident I mentioned above on Malachor V. Or it might've been something another Sith ordered.


Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
Was darth nihlius politically motivated or not?

Wait, so Darth nihlius felt the desire to consume life with the force, or just to kill in general?

He was not politically motived, no, or at least not primarily politically motived. And to consume life with the force.



Sith desire power, but not necessarily political.

Some want the power to live forever, or get revenge, or to prevent someone from dying, or to defeat some great threat (though, it should be noted, the two most significant cases of this I know, the threat was... other Sith), or simply... survive (often the case for the minor Sith in the Sith Empires- if you grow stronger, you survive and prosper. If you falter and get weak, you die and someone takes your place. Yet the stronger you get, the more that try and take you down and the more you need to stop them, and you end up in a continuous power grab until someone takes you down). Politics is sometimes an ends in itself, but other times it's just a means to an ends.




There are darksiders who don't get up to much, but most of those don't try to claim the title of sith. If you're just some paranoid darksider who wants to be left alone and doesn't do anything big, then you aren't Sith, generally speaking.

The original Jedi-who-became-Sith didn't just want to be left alone. They wanted power over life and death and they also wanted others to follow them- They weren't content for the Jedi to stay out of their way, they had to convince the Jedi their way was right and turn them to them. They wanted to not only have their abilities but acknowledged as the masters as life and death, and quite a few of them had a desire for conquest too.


The thing is, practicing the darkside means strong emotions, meaning generally you want something or hate something or so on, very strongly, and the Sith are ones who both experience that and have the power to grasp for even great goals. And if one doesn't have that, why become a Sith in the first place?



Thus generally the only time they stand still is when they view themselves as on top, or if they're serving a stronger sith who they think will give them what they desire (generally with the add on "... or until they get strong enough they no longer need the other Sith.".

Now, there are plenty don't accomplish their goals, but do spend effort working towards the intent.

Both 'just practice the dark side' and having the power to claim the title of Sith is technically possible, but it's vanishingly rare, because both the act of tapping into the darkside with your emotions and the sith philosophy strongly play against it.


And it should be noted that part of the reason the Sith use the master/apprentice system during the time of the movies is to actively prevent it. If the master gets lazy like that, the apprentice is supposed to off him and take his place. If the apprentice does, then the master will kill him/her and replace them with someone else.


Sidious's master did a fair amount of stuff, killing, arranging deaths, that sort of thing, but then he started to get complacent and Sidious killed him, and that's how it's supposed to work. Someone who, from the start only desired to just use the darkside without a grand goal would either have their master drill it out of them (Maul really hates the Jedi not because anything the Jedi did, but because Sidious made him hate the Jedi. He created a hatred in Maul for him to use), or they won't last long as an apprentice and be replaced.

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
Do all Sith desire political power, or not?

Out of the Sith that don't try to be dictators that rule the galaxy, what do they do? What's wrong with them just practicing the darkside? Not every darksider is involved with politics?

Anakin turning to the darkside to me, to save padme, doesn't automatically mean becoming a dictator and ruling an empire just to save one person. Turning to the darkside and/or becoming a sith doesn't automatically make you involved in grand politics.

Are there any instances of the Jedi allowing darksiders to do their own thing, as long as they don't bother/interfere with other people, in the history of the EU star wars universe?

Wait, so the Sith are some sorta political group, with the whole desiring power and whatnot?

Why are you changing the subject? Your initial post had this question:

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
What atrocities did the old Sith (from over a millenia ago), do, that made them evil? None of this is ever specified in the films, so I'm asking some of the EU experts to explain the Sith's evilness to me.

The answer, as I pointed out, is:

Originally posted by -Pr-
I honestly feel like i've gotten off topic, so i'll be brief.

The original question was why the Sith are considered the bad guys.

The answer is:

The Sith are considered the bad guys because of the Great Hyperspace War.

The Great Hyperspace War was started by the Sith when they invaded the Republic.

The Sith invaded the Republic because Naga Sadow had lied and convinced the other Sith that the Republic was out to get them.

For the most part, any record of the Jedi banishing members of their order had been lost. The invasion was one of pure aggression and a lust for power.

And we've already said (two of us at least) that the Jedi only interfered with the other Jedi practising the Dark Side when those doing it tried to coerce others in to doing it, and tried to achieve power.

The Jedi don't tend to care about people practising the Dark Side without hurting anyone. The problem is that the vast majority of the people practising the Dark Side are those same people that try to use it against others.

Originally posted by -Pr-

And we've already said (two of us at least) that the Jedi only interfered with the other Jedi practising the Dark Side when those doing it tried to coerce others in to doing it, and tried to achieve power.

The Jedi don't tend to care about people practising the Dark Side without hurting anyone. The problem is that the vast majority of the people practising the Dark Side are those same people that try to use it against others.


Yea, if someone is in the darkside, but just mutzing around on their own, a Jedi's far more likely to try and convince them to use the light, or just stay out of their way. People like that aren't Sith, though. Rarely even in name, and definitely not in practice.


Oh, one group that comes to mind is the Jensaarai. They were founded by someone who followed the dark side and believed in the Sith teachings of an old sith manual, but he died before he turned his students to the dark, the students continued teaching but instinctively shied from the darkside, basically making their own version of the techniques and philosophy that they felt was right and just. So they continued on, existing as an order sorta on the edge of light and dark, and were told the Jedi were cruel and evil oppressors. The Jedi met them much later, and even though they were operating under the assumption that the Jedi were evil and even though their teachings were based on an alteration of Sith teachings, the Jedi were, "Nah, it's not like that! We're cool! You cool? Then we're cool."

They made peace with the Jedi and continued to live on as their own separate sect. They even did the occasional exchange program, hosting Jedi students as guests and allowing their own to go out and train with the Jedi for awhile.


Because they weren't evil, the Jedi had no problem with them existing and training people, even though their tradition was kinda based on the Sith's.

Interesting; I'd never heard of them.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Interesting; I'd never heard of them.

Well, they were only really in one book, "I Jedi". They're one of a couple minor force sects that don't show up much.

I've heard about that book, though I've never read it. All my reading was PT era (more specifically the Clone Wars), so I'm trying to branch out.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I've heard about that book, though I've never read it. All my reading was PT era (more specifically the Clone Wars), so I'm trying to branch out.

It's a good one.


It stars Corran Horn, who was also a protagonist in the X-wing Rogue Squadron books, which are some of the most universally-liked SW books.

Honestly I probably need to re-read I Jedi, it's been awhile ^^

That name sounds familiar; I've probably come accross it in wikis at some point.

The next book on my list is the new Sith one that's out in April.

Link: http://www.amazon.ca/Book-Sith-Secrets-Dark-Side/dp/1452118159/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362513522&sr=8-1

Though I'm tempted to get the holocron edition.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That name sounds familiar; I've probably come accross it in wikis at some point.

Yea. Though in most of the novels he stars in he's a pilot, Corran's one of the big Jedi masters of Luke's order, alongside Mara Jade, Kyle Katarn, Kyp Durron, and a few others.



Ah yea. Not a novel-book, but one like Jedi Path. Not entirely sure about those, but the 'this is a book in-universe' thing is kinda fun.

Ah, that's probably why I know the name.

Yeah, I really like the in-universe stuff. Jedi Path is also on my list.

In TOR you get a quest as the Empire to gas some revolting slaves. They Sith giving you the quest wants you to try out his special gas that cripples the slaves with unbearable pain. He says its to encourage them to surrender quicker but you learn that all previous experiments point to there being no actual increased surrender time. So basically he's just torturing them for no reason. In fact, its actually extremely ineffective to the Empire and a waste of time and resources.

Another Sith Lord plans to bomb the Empires own citizens from orbit to create an Empire of fear and pain. Why? Because he's ****ing nuts.

The Sith are almost by default insane murderous fascists. The darkside has been described by Lucas as being like a cancer in the Force. It amplifies the most destructive emotions in its users and basically drives them mad. The Jedi don't just hate them for being a different religious organization, they hate them for being an organisation of genocidal lunatics whose stated goal is to wipe out the Jedi Order and enslave the galaxy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The darkside has been described by Lucas as being like a cancer in the Force. It amplifies the most destructive emotions in its users and basically drives them mad.

yup

Though the extremes to which the common dark sider is shown to go is more than outlandish.

Also in Kotor the first thing you see on Korriban is a newly recruited Sith Acolyte murdering a random person just to try out his new Force powers.

My issue is with the almost schizophrenic interpretation of the dark side. Vader, Maul, and Dooku have all been shown to have sympathetic attachments and/or motivations. There's only one Sith in the films shown to be the exception to that and why he's being held as the moral standard for the common dark sider eludes me.

Sidious should have been modeled as the epitome of the Dark Side, not just another in a long line extremists.

When you say extremist, I think he should be wearing a turban.

Dooku did, at one point. He sacrificed Jedi in the name of Allahpatine.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
My issue is with the almost schizophrenic interpretation of the dark side. Vader, Maul, and Dooku have all been shown to have sympathetic attachments and/or motivations. There's only one Sith in the films shown to be the exception to that and why he's being held as the moral standard for the common dark sider eludes me.

Eh? Theres only one Sith in the films shown to be sympathetic at all and that's Vader. And Vader is still pretty damn evil.

The EU on the other hand makes it clear that Sith aren't 100% evil all the time and actually are, you know, real people, albeit crazy, murderous people.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Ah, that's probably why I know the name.

Yeah, I really like the in-universe stuff. Jedi Path is also on my list.

I picked it up, and find the handling of the characters in the written notes generally clunky. A lot of them are just advertising the character's most obvious aspects, or mentioning something that the character later does.

I mean, the none-note parts can be ok, but some of the notes are a bit much! So it's a mixed bag.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Eh? Theres only one Sith in the films shown to be sympathetic at all and that's Vader. And Vader is still pretty damn evil.

Dooku was an ex-Jedi of great repute who sought to end corruption and attempted to negotiate with his enemies constantly (with Obi-Wan, with Mace, with Obi-Wan again in the hangar, etc.). TCW makes it clear Maul, for all his arrangement and sadism, cared deeply for Savage.

And I never said that Vader wasn't still really evil.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The EU on the other hand makes it clear that Sith aren't 100% evil all the time and actually are, you know, real people, albeit crazy, murderous people.

lol

I was talking just in the movies. And in the movies everything Dooku says about fighting corruption can be waved off as bullshit since he's working with Sidious, the source of all the corruption and the freaking Trade Federation.

I think you run the risk of Thrawning Sidious if you assume he is the source of all corruption in the Republic.

Fine, but Sidious still causes a crisis to get himself elected and tries to assassinate Senator Amidala when she got inconvenient/started opposing his policies.

Well thanks for spoiling AOTC for me.

Anyway, there's no doubt that Sidious is essentially the embodiment of triumph, power, intellect, and manliness in this franchise, but he's not omnipotent.

Originally posted by Q99
I picked it up, and find the handling of the characters in the written notes generally clunky. A lot of them are just advertising the character's most obvious aspects, or mentioning something that the character later does.

I mean, the none-note parts can be ok, but some of the notes are a bit much! So it's a mixed bag. `

Sucks. Maybe I can flick through it in chapters and see if it's what i hope it is.

Originally posted by -Pr-
`

Sucks. Maybe I can flick through it in chapters and see if it's what i hope it is.

Some notes-

"Intriguing!" - student Dooku on the idea of curved-hilted sabers.

"Another Jedi weakness, the Sith need no word for surrender!" -Sidious, on the use of a word for signaling defeat in training exercises (and, I'm pretty sure they do have a word for that...)


"I can't ever see using this move!" -Kenobi on the 'slice off both legs' move he later using on Anakin.


I mean, there were some better ones, the Ashoka notes were pretty fun since she does a lot of commentary on other notes, and there was a fun one on how four of the Jedi dealt with some particular animals in a lightsaber crystal cave (Qui-gon: "Be careful!" Kenobi- "Is the council trying to kill us??" Anakin "Pssht, they were weak, I killed three." Ashoka- "I just gave them some rations!", but some of them are really

i see.

As much as I hated Caedus as a character, he was a good example of the conflict that some feel in turning to the Darkside. he literally began to believe that he had to do it, though he was also clearly nuts by the end.

I know some hate Karp's books, but we do at least see Bane moving from average miner, to soldier who believes he's fighting for a cause, to Darkside acolyte, to full Sith practitioner who would do whatever necessary to achieve his goals. That said, aside from what he did to the family on the crawler and Caleb, his attacks were generally limited to other Sith and those of "questionable" connection. He clearly was willing to do whatever necessary for the long-term goals of his new order though.

Maul may have cared for his brother, but Shadow Hunter makes it clear how much he delights in causing others suffering and taking the lives of those his master designates as targets. I don't think any Sith will be winning neighbor of the year awards

There are some nice Sith in TOR. Somewhere.

You know, if you really look hard enough.

Both Darth Thanaton and Darth Malgus had people they truly cared about and trusted.

In both cases, said people were slaves, but still, both cases the relationships went far beyond that.


And in both cases, they were killed to remove a weakness...

And the game does encourage you to explore your feelings as a sith by giving you a slave at one point. hell, there are at least two love interests that respond directly to goodness even though you're playing a sith.

Zannah's most merciful action was vaping Darovit's hand so Bane wouldn't kill him, and within 24 hours of that she had murdered an entire family. Can't think of too many acts of kindness by the Sith.

All things considered, Darth Vectivus sounds like quite the moderate Sith.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
All things considered, Darth Vectivus sounds like quite the moderate Sith.


Yes, this is true, but there is the question of "Just how much of his life story was made up?".


And still, he's like, one guy ^^ Statistically, sith are assholes.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Empires alien genocide project in Swtor. Chalk up one more atrocity!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh yeah, I forgot about the Empires alien genocide project in Swtor. Chalk up one more atrocity!

One Sith did the Vongiform plague *and* the genocide on Dac.

Wasn't old Palps fond of low-orbit bombing of entire planets?

Speaking of bombing, if anyone's played TOR, Darth Angral is a pretty ****ed up Sith in terms of how crazy he is.