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Two of Fairy Tail's rivals go head to head!

Phantom Lord members as-of the Phantom Lord arc, Sabertooth members as-of the start of the Magic Games:

Gajeel
Aria
Juvia
Totomaru
Sol

Vs

Rufus
Orga
Sting
Rogue



Note: No Minerva.



Who will win? Gajeel and the Element Four, or four of Sabertooth's top members?

Oh yes, and Gajeel gets to start in Dragon Force

Sabertooth. Gajeel was much weaker then than he is now. I think rogue could probably take him. Sting would beat Juuvia. Orga could probably handle the rest by himself. He was able to hold his own against Laxxus

He seems to be a bit of a glass cannon, though, at least when it comes to physical attacks. Being a lightning god slayer, Laxus's magic was at about half power, if Laxus had gone HtH with him it'd have ended fast.

Oh yea, and an alt scenario: Sabertooth vs Jose

I wouldn't necessarily call Orga a glass cannon. Getting defeated inH2H by Juura isn't a weak showing. He is a member of the ten wizard saints after all. I doubt any of phantom lords mages besides Jose has that kind of physical power. Also, they would have to get around his powerful magic.

True enough.

Sabertooth vs. Jose

hmmmm.....I wonder if Sting's light magic would hold up against Jose's dark magic. But even if it wouldn't, Sabertooth is a great deal stronger than FT was when they defeated Jose (granted FT needed holy law), so I think Sabertooth could eke this one out. With Orga, Sting, and Rogue's raw power combined with Rufus's memory make magic, I think Jose has a hard time matching them all. he could probably take any two of them and possibly 3 if Rufus isn't one of them.

I'd say Makarov at that point was definitely stronger than Sabertooth, so that's not saying much. The only FT member than Jose and Sabertooth both fought was Erza, and Jose was able to hold her off with his melee skills.

Also remember he had his shades fighting most of the guild.

Makarov seems inconsistent to me. Didn't he get pwned by the former FT leader? I almost think Gildartz has more power.

Erza was also weaker than as well. He probably isn't doing that to current "I have an armor for everything" Erza. lol I really wonder if Sting's light magic could handle the shades. If not I'm sure his and Orga's together could.

Btw, I view Sting and Rogue as about equal to starting Natsu and Gajeel, or a bit above due to dragon force, but in that area.

Rufus and Orga somewhat above that.


Originally posted by socool8520
Makarov seems inconsistent to me. Didn't he get pwned by the former FT leader?

Uh, the same one that was literally able to tank all of Laxus's magic after fighting Erza, Natsu, Gray, Wendy, and Lucy at once.

That is not a low showing! One of the spells that Makarov blocked caused destruction across most of the island.

And this was also after Makarov used his titan form to tank a jupiter cannon, smash the Grimoire airship, and charge a Fairy Law.




Erza always had armor for everything And in even her weakest armors she's darn powerful in HtH.



There's a lot of them, though, and they keep coming. Everyone will have to fight them, in addition to dealing with Jose's very powerful direct magic.

Originally posted by Q99
Btw, I view Sting and Rogue as about equal to starting Natsu and Gajeel, or a bit above due to dragon force, but in that area.

Rufus and Orga somewhat above that.

I disagree. We know that they were a good margin above starting Natsu and Gajeel. They owned everyone before Natsu and co. came back (at least it was implied). Those are the same people that Natsu could barely defeat when was first brought back.




Originally posted by Q99
Erza always had armor for everything And in even her weakest armors she's darn powerful in HtH.

Yes, but a far cry from her current state. Natsu and co. are at least twice as powerful as when they first fought Jose.



Originally posted by Q99
There's a lot of them, though, and they keep coming. Everyone will have to fight them, in addition to dealing with Jose's very powerful direct magic.

I see your point, I just think Sabertooth's combined power would be enough to take Jose down. it would be extremely difficult, especially without minerva, but I think they get the slight edge.

We don't know of any specific fights, and we know a lot of the challenges were lost due to simple bad luck, and in the challenge stage.

I.e. they left their shooters at home the time there was a shooting competition, their dancer the dancing one, their racer at the race, and so on. Which also implies that FT didn't even send it's 5 strongest members each time- It wasn't Max/Bisca/Alzack/Warren/Jet, for example, they'd have lesser members even from what was available at the time, and they were getting creamed in the challenges.

Max was also the only one definitely shown to have leveled up enough to face Natsu. He seems to be the strongest of the ones who remained, and he'd lose to Lyon. Other guilds, Lamia most obviously, certainly would've contributed their share of defeats to them.

So yea, even with Max and a couple other strong mages around, it doesn't mean the FT team was particularly strong or that the Saberteeth were beating them directly.

No it just implies that Natsu and co were weak compared to the current gen as they stated themselves. Everyone had advanced without them with Gildartz being the only exception iirc.

Originally posted by socool8520
No it just implies that Natsu and co were weak compared to the current gen as they stated themselves. Everyone had advanced without them with Gildartz being the only exception iirc.

I don't think the results actually hold that up, though.

They were impressed with how much the home guard improved, but even the people who skipped forward and didn't have special power ups did well upon return against other guilds. And we do know that part of why FT did poorly was bad matchups.

My opinion is Mashima was doing a bait-and-switch on us.

The only other person I can think of that did well without a power up is Laxxus, but he was already S class anyways

Originally posted by socool8520
The only other person I can think of that did well without a power up is Laxxus, but he was already S class anyways

Elfman and Mirajane as well.


I bet you that if we see the Thundergod tribe fight, they'll still be very formidable.

---

One thing I'd like to point out is Natsu's magic is powered by emotion. Sure, Max was holding him off... but it was when Natsu was just in 'light sparing mode'.

You know, like how when he hot-headedly challenges Erza, she just one-shots him with a hammer, but when he's serious, there's an actual exchange of blows. I think the fight was when he was more the former than the latter.

Exactly. He challenged Gildarts tons of times, and got playfully swatted. But during the S-Class test when they had to fight, he got serious and put up a better fight than a lot of other people would.

Originally posted by Q99
Elfman and Mirajane as well.


I bet you that if we see the Thundergod tribe fight, they'll still be very formidable.

---

One thing I'd like to point out is Natsu's magic is powered by emotion. Sure, Max was holding him off... but it was when Natsu was just in 'light sparing mode'.

You know, like how when he hot-headedly challenges Erza, she just one-shots him with a hammer, but when he's serious, there's an actual exchange of blows. I think the fight was when he was more the former than the latter.

Didn't they both just unlock skills they had once possessed? Mirajane at least was supposed to be uber before she thought her sister died. Elfman, meh.....the only thing impressive about him was his durability. He's basically Rocky, outclassed in every way except durability. lol

Didn't Natsu actually use one of his more powerful techs though? That alone says he was at least giving it a serious effort. And that alone was enough to max him out. Had he fought Sting or anyone higher than that at that time, he would have been owned imo.

Originally posted by KingD19
Exactly. He challenged Gildarts tons of times, and got playfully swatted. But during the S-Class test when they had to fight, he got serious and put up a better fight than a lot of other people would.

Come on. He managed to move Gildartz a little, with Gildartz not even doing anything I might add. Gildartz never intended to swat him or the fight would have been the same as any other time.

Originally posted by socool8520
Didn't they both just unlock skills they had once possessed? Mirajane at least was supposed to be uber before she thought her sister died.

Mirajane unlocked that way back at fighting festival, and hasn't really had much reason to upgrade since, just a bit of training. Maybe get back in the habit but that's all.




He was outclassed but still managed to manage against someone who was considered one of the strongest post-skip fighters.

As opposed to pre-skip, where 'outclassed but managed to manage against strong fighters' described him back then too ^^

Lemme point out how he was Out armwrestling Dory and Nab, so at least Nab didn't catch up to Elfman (Nab being another strength based fighter).




No, he only used melee and 'fire dragon's iron fist'. Fire dragon's iron fist is one of his weakest dragon slayer techniques. Roar, wing, brilliant flame, and the Crimson Lotus Secret Arts (the ones that explode) are the big ones.


Once he went lightning, he totally overwhelmed Max with a single attack, too.




I think without the magic boost, he'd likely have to go Lightning Mode, but could still definitely beat Sting and maybe still both at once, though not with certainty anymore.


Also lemme point out that Gajeel didn't get Second Origin, only a couple months training with Tigerlily, and that was enough to be much stronger than Rogue.

I think your putting them too high honestly. They stated they weren't enough for the new gen when they came back, and most had to unlock hidden potential to win. What need would there have been for the rapid boost if Natsu could have beaten Sting and Rogue in his current state? They would have trained sure but not as desparately as they were. gajeel either? Lucy still had problems and had absolutely no answer for Minerva iirc. Erza underwent the boost as I recall and still barely beat Minerva, and that was from some ass pull armor. None of this would have been needed unless they were much weaker when they came back.

But Natsu didn't, he didn't use his super mode. And Gajeel was only in trouble when Rogue unlocked his secret power.


Mind, without the upgrades, FT would've lost several fights. Like, I think Lyon and Chelia would've won (heck, Rufus might've beaten Grey, or at least gotten a draw!). And Erza pretty much needed hers, without the magic-cutting armor she'd take more damage and the best she could hope for is maybe a draw.

The upgrades mattered, but their base forms vs the new levels of other foes was not what was first implied.

Originally posted by Q99
But Natsu didn't, he didn't use his super mode. And Gajeel was only in trouble when Rogue unlocked his secret power.


Mind, without the upgrades, FT would've lost several fights. Like, I think Lyon and Chelia would've won (heck, Rufus might've beaten Grey, or at least gotten a draw!). And Erza pretty much needed hers, without the magic-cutting armor she'd take more damage and the best she could hope for is maybe a draw.

The upgrades mattered, but their base forms vs the new levels of other foes was not what was first implied.

I agree, they would have lost most of their fights. Laxxus is probably the only who wouldn't have lost early imo.

That's the implication I got. They needed those upgrades or they would have been weak sauce.

They wouldn't have been weak sauce. Natsu would've still been stronger than either of the enemy dragon slayers (and him + Gajeel together would've definitely won). Erza might've been able to beat Minerva without the boost if she hadn't been injured by Kagura.


Without the boost, they'd still be a somewhat-stronger team than the opposition, just not as much.

I disagree. Erza would have been dominated. Even with the boost that brought about years of growth overnight, she barely won.

I'm under the belief that both Sting and Rogue were more powerful than the sand using kid from FT that Natsu barely defeated. If he was taxed fighting that kid, I believe he would have been beaten by Sting. Same for Gajeel vs. Rogue considering Gajeel is a step below Natsu.

Erza was wounded, though.

The boost gave her the new armor that let her win, but she managed to get some hits even without that.



Max isn't a kid, he was one of Fairy Tail's wizards from pre-skip who fought against Phantom Lord* and such and was about Gray's age... but Natsu hardly 'barely defeated' him. Max blocked one of Natsu's weaker moves ('Fire Dragon's Iron Fist') and some HtH, then Natsu blew him away. And Natsu didn't even get angry, we know Natsu's attacks literally get stronger when he gets angry.

Sting and Rogue may have both been stronger than Max, but pre-second origin Natsu was way stronger than Max.


And Gajeel didn't get Second Origin. He was beating non-possessed Rogue without an upgrade, just a little training with Tigerlily.

The second origin boost seems to be a bit better than a couple months of intense training, but Gajeel shows they had already gotten really strong.


*Here's Max blasting some of Jose's shades

I thought it required a lot of power to equip, power she wouldn't have had without the boost.

Natsu beat the guy, but he was maxed out at that point. He had nothing left. IMO, Sting would have beaten him at that current state of power.

I reread the Max/Natsu fight, and I think you are giving Natsu too much credit. And he's my favorite character. For most of the brief spar, Max looked like the stronger opponent, and it was even noticed by the spectators that Max was winning. It wasn't until Natsu pulled out his lightning/fire tech that he even looked to be on top, and that maxed him out.

Max was 'winning' when Natsu didn't pull out any of his stronger techs. He pulled out a single Fire Dragon's Iron Fist.

No Roar, no Wing, no Brilliant Flame, and none of his secret arts. No Crimson Lotus: Fire Dragon's Fist (the one he used to beat Gajeel), no Crimson Lotus: Exploding Flame Blade (the one he used to make Gildartz step back and to defeat Sting and Rogue).

Yes, Max was doing well when Natsu wasn't even using his best flame moves. This doesn't translate into Max being stronger than him, just that Max was doing better than expected.

Additionally, we know that emotion explicitly powers up dragon slayers, as we've seen often. He was fighting a friend who he underestimated.




Yes, she wouldn't have been able to use that special armor without the boost.

However, if she hadn't been wounded, I'm not sure she'd have needed the special armor to at least make it close. She got some hits in before calling on second origin.



He ran out after using Lightning Fire mode dragon's roar, which is a move he didn't use against Sting at all.

And again- Gajeel didn't have a boost like that and he was able to shrug Sting's assault just as well as Natsu did.

The way I see it, the boost let Erza use her magic-cutting armor, and it let Natsu use Lightning mode for more than one big attack. Both very important upgrades, but they have a lot aside from that.