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Who would win in a battle to the death?
Setting: Open Plain

Depends, does Anakin have two sabers http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series3/2z7exox.png

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Depends, does Anakin have two sabers http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series3/2z7exox.png
No.

Mace, though.

We should consider that Vaapad won't be as effective against Anakin (assuming this is light side Anakin). Although he still has Shatterpoint.

The only reason Windu managed to defeat Sidious was due to these abilities. Vaapad kept him on par with Sidious for most of the fight, until his Shatterpoint was able to exploit his weaknesses. Against Anakin, he'd be fighting without the aid of said ability, or at least with much less efficiency coming from it.

I think this would be closer than some people might believe.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
We should consider that Vaapad won't be as effective against Anakin (assuming this is light side Anakin). Although he still has Shatterpoint.

The only reason Windu managed to defeat Sidious was due to these abilities. Vaapad kept him on par with Sidious for most of the fight, until his Shatterpoint was able to exploit his weaknesses. Against Anakin, he'd be fighting without the aid of said ability, or at least with much less efficiency coming from it.

I think this would be closer than some people might believe.
Vaapad will be as effective regardless.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vaapad will be as effective regardless.

Against Dark Side Anakin? Yes
Against clarity Anakin? No, not nearly as effective as it was against Sidious.

Anakin is Mace's equal in sabers, or damned close to it.

Mace, and without too much difficulty

Unless we assume that Vaapad plays a decisive role here, then Anakin will give Mace the fight of his life.

And God help Windu if Anakin has two sabers.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Mace, and without too much difficulty

You must be joking. You've seen the hell Anakin gives Dooku and you think Mace stomps him?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Against Dark Side Anakin? Yes
Against clarity Anakin? No, not nearly as effective as it was against Sidious.

Anakin is Mace's equal in sabers, or damned close to it.
Don't get me wrong. I believe Anakin wins, especially darkside one. What I meant is that Vaapad will work same way regardless of Anakin's state of mind. In other words I am against bullshit claims that Vaapad works better against darksiders.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

And God help Windu if Anakin has two sabers.

biscuits

Originally posted by Arhael
Don't get me wrong. I believe Anakin wins, especially darkside one. What I meant is that Vaapad will work same way regardless of Anakin's state of mind. In other words I am against bullshit claims that Vaapad works better against darksiders.

Hmm, why is that? I was under the impression that Vaapad drew on the Dark Side of the opposing side and powered the Jedi wielding it.

I dunno if Anakin wins...I am not entirely convinced, especially because when it comes to force Windu is likely his better.

I think Mace takes this. Anakin was no doubt a great duelist at this point, but he was not Sidious', Mace's, or Yoda's equal. It wouldn't be a quick fight by any means, though Anakin falls in the end.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Hmm, why is that? I was under the impression that Vaapad drew on the Dark Side of the opposing side and powered the Jedi wielding it.

And you, sir, are correct. That is exactly how Vaapad works.

Outside of that, Vaapad is a ferocious form, which gives the user great speed and offensive prowess.

But its effectiveness reduced by half. The user accepts the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop. The other half is the darkness of the opponent. Therefore, if the user is not a dark sider, the way in which the form is designed to be utilized would be literally incomplete.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I think Mace takes this. Anakin was no doubt a great duelist at this point, but he was not Sidious', Mace's, or Yoda's equal. It wouldn't be a quick fight by any means, though Anakin falls in the end.

That's what your missing. Dooku was Mace's Equal and he lost.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's what your missing. Dooku was Mace's Equal and he lost.

That's what you're missing. He wasn't Mace's equal.

Is it stated by an actual source that Windu is Dooku's equal?

Originally posted by Visage
That's what you're missing. He wasn't Mace's equal.

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground."

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Is it stated by an actual source that Windu is Dooku's equal?

Prior to ROTS, yes.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground."

That's prior to ROTS, Dumbass.

Originally posted by Visage
That's prior to ROTS, Dumbass.

Prove Mace Windu got stronger since Dark Rendezvous

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove Mace Windu got stronger since Dark Rendezvous

Mace could beat Sidious, whereas Dooku knew he couldn't.

Originally posted by Visage
Mace could beat Sidious, whereas Dooku knew he couldn't.

Mace beating Sidious was circumstantial.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Mace beating Sidious was circumstantial.

Agreed. Mace was lucky he brought 3 fodder jedi to distract Sidious or else Sidious would have just blitzed Windu before he could use Vaapad. It's been stated that Windu (and Fisto if it matters) could only bring their guard up once Sidious had raped Kolar and Tinn.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Mace beating Sidious was circumstantial.

No it wasn't. What is this Bullshit?



Originally posted by Vensai
Agreed. Mace was lucky he brought 3 fodder jedi to distract Sidious or else Sidious would have just blitzed Windu before he could use Vaapad. It's been stated that Windu (and Fisto if it matters) could only bring their guard up once Sidious had raped Kolar and Tinn.

Ah, which leaves it open-ended, because Kolar and Tinn could have been as powerful as Fisto and Windu, right?

Fisto and Windu were prepared to fight Sidious; only Kolar and Tinn were too slow to react.

The idea that the other two Jedi were just as slow is simply Retarded.



If Sidious were fast enough to strike Windu, before he could react, then Windu have died in that duel, Period.

Kolar and Tinn were noticably below Fisto and especially Windu. Windu's defeat of Sidious isn't circumstantial - unlike Obi-wan's defeat of Anakin.

As the duel proved, both in the movie and novel, Sidious wasn't fast enough to lay a strike on Windu, but Windu was fast enough to edge Sidious out in speed and beat him.

Honestly though, what a stupid bullshit excuse; which Idiot thought that one up?

Chill, I'm just looking through all the possibilities. I am doubting Windu's initial speed without Vaapad because he literally was able to do nothing to prevent his allies' deaths in the movie.

Anakin would win out. There is no doubt about that. His stamina and strength of the force would be too much for Windu. He doesn't have some emotional connection to him like he does with Kenobi, obviously.

Originally posted by Visage
Prior to ROTS, yes.

Prior to episode 3, It's stated he's less.

Originally posted by Vensai
Chill, I'm just looking through all the possibilities. I am doubting Windu's initial speed without Vaapad because he literally was able to do nothing to prevent his allies' deaths in the movie.

Keep in mind that because the Jedi Masters were standing so closely together, they would have to be careful of what movements they quickly make, lest one accidentally bisect another.

That's even why Jedi Masters and their Padawans even have a set walking-distance, so that if they have to suddenly and without warning react to a danger, accidental bisection of one or the other does not occur.

Essentially, every Master there had to trust that the other would be able to handle themselves.

As well as the fact that Sidious knew Mace was second only to Yoda (and knew of Vapaad), and if he could have used an edge of speed and surprise to kill anyone there who was a true threat to him, he would have knocked Mace off first.

But he couldn't. He could only knock off those weaker first, to try and cull the numbers.

Originally posted by Visage
Keep in mind that because the Jedi Masters were standing so closely together, they would have to be careful of what movements they quickly make, lest one accidentally bisect another.

That's even why Jedi Masters and their Padawans even have a set walking-distance, so that if they have to suddenly and without warning react to a danger, accidental bisection of one or the other does not occur.

Essentially, every Master there had to trust that the other would be able to handle themselves.

As well as the fact that Sidious knew Mace was second only to Yoda (and knew of Vapaad), and if he could have used an edge of speed and surprise to kill anyone there who was a true threat to him, he would have knocked Mace off first.

But he couldn't. He could only knock off those weaker first, to try and cull the numbers.

I see. Well that was rather silly of them to stand so close to one another. Though Windu was in the middle of his group and Sidious could have gotten surrounded by the other jedi if he chose to take on Windu at that moment without dealing with the side guards.

Originally posted by Vensai
I see. Well that was rather silly of them to stand so close to one another. Though Windu was in the middle of his group and Sidious could have gotten surrounded by the other jedi if he chose to take on Windu at that moment without dealing with the side guards.

With or without the others, it would have ended the same way.

Originally posted by Vensai
Agreed. Mace was lucky he brought 3 fodder jedi to distract Sidious or else Sidious would have just blitzed Windu before he could use Vaapad. It's been stated that Windu (and Fisto if it matters) could only bring their guard up once Sidious had raped Kolar and Tinn.

He wouldn't have blitzed Windu. But the 3 Jedi were a factor that changed how the fight began so shouldn't be ignored.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Is it stated by an actual source that Windu is Dooku's equal?

Actually every source on the matter has Dooku =/> Windu.

Whilst I'm not aware of any source that states Windu > Dooku.

It's a matter of interpretation. Vaapad is a combat style and state of mind, not a Force power. I see it as Windu feeding on emotions of opponent, not his Force energy. So Windu gets empowered
by opponent as much as his inner potential allows. Windu was still less powerful than Sidious. He used lightsaber to block lightning and still nearly got overpowered, while Yoda without lightsaber and Vaapad even seemed to be winning contest until explosion.

As for Anakin, his lightside performance is generally not as good, when he controlls his emotions. He wasn't as big problem for Dooku or Ventress. Windu most likely would actually outskill or Force handle such Anakin. But, if Anakin is really angry, he becomes unstoppable as he showed against Dooku in CW and Kenobi in RotS.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vaapad is a combat style and state of mind, not a Force power. I see it as Windu feeding on emotions of opponent, not his Force energy. So Windu gets empowered
by opponent as much as his inner potential allows. Windu was still less powerful than Sidious.



This is how I'm interpreting it as well.

Sidious's Rage and Power aided Mace to fight at his own full potential. But he never actually equaled Sidious in force power.

And I've yet to see a source that claims Mace literally siphons the force power from a dark side opponent.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He wouldn't have blitzed Windu. But the 3 Jedi were a factor that changed how the fight began so shouldn't be ignored.



Actually every source on the matter has Dooku =/> Windu.

Whilst I'm not aware of any source that states Windu > Dooku.


Every source book says Dooku defeated Windu in sparring. And even Dark Rendezvous suggests that if anyone has the edge it's the good Count.

DR made no such reference to Dooku having the edge. Dooku was also older than Mace and these sparring sessions happened when Dooku had more expereince under his belt. I'm still waiting on that source somebody claimed existed that stated Mace had fully developed Vaaped and Shatterpoint when these sparring sessions took place. Furthermore, it's still SPARRING.

Anyways, Mace wins and wins pretty easily. Mace's force powers are WELL above Anakin's.. He literally wouldn't need to move out of his chair and throw Anakin around. Which WINS of Anakin make anybody believe he could beat Mace is beyond me. Against and OLDER Dooku who was clearly pas this prime.. not only past his prime but expended vital energy fighting off TWO people first and not going for the kill? That is why people believe he beats Mace? JESUS :FACEPALM:

Windu would draw up on Anakin's rage/dark energies and send it right back into his face.

I don't doubt that Anakin gets blitzed here, especially because he described Windu's single blade seeming to be 100. And the fact that Windu while in his "Vaapad Trance" was faster than Sidious, who in turn, Anakin couldn't even keep up with with his eyes.

Anakin stands NO chance whatsoever here.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
DR made no such reference to Dooku having the edge. Dooku was also older than Mace and these sparring sessions happened when Dooku had more expereince under his belt. I'm still waiting on that source somebody claimed existed that stated Mace had fully developed Vaaped and Shatterpoint when these sparring sessions took place. Furthermore, it's still SPARRING.


"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground."
Seems pretty clear who would have the edge.

There is no canon source that states Dooku got weaker since he left the Order. Evidence seems to lean towards the opposite.

Anakin and Dooku are different cases. Dooku didn't draw from rage and try to crush his enemies. He was calm, and refined in his battles, making Vaapad's ability to redirect such rather useless.

Anakin, on the other hand, draws from an incredible amount of rage and is an extremely offensive fighter. Mace would tap into that power and open himself up to the Dark Side, basically giving him unthinkable strength and speed, thus allowing him to blitz the Skywalker.

Anyone who can match the Emperor is more than a match for Skywalker.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Anyways, Mace wins and wins pretty easily. Mace's force powers are WELL above Anakin's.. He literally wouldn't need to move out of his chair and throw Anakin around. Which WINS of Anakin make anybody believe he could beat Mace is beyond me. Against and OLDER Dooku who was clearly pas this prime.. not only past his prime but expended vital energy fighting off TWO people first and not going for the kill? That is why people believe he beats Mace? JESUS :FACEPALM:
Hah. That's a lot of hype for Windu who's TK feats don't compare to Dooku or Yoda at all.

Dooku's TK is above even Yoda and yet Anakin resisted.

Yes, yes, not even Yoda's TK compares to Dooku's and there is plenty of evidence for that.

Yoda showed his TK prowess against Ventress, he pulled lightsabers out of her hands. Dooku did the same to more powerful Ventress. Apart from that Dooku Force handled Kenobi, while fending off Anakin, which is far more impressive than Force handling Ventress in 1 on 1 fight without distraction from another combatant.

Yoda's best feats are lifting huge metal pillar and a starfighter, which he did through heavy concentration. Dooku Force crushed that pillar without heavy concentration, while in saber lock with Yoda. Imho that's far more impressive. Apart from that Dooku broke metal platform after Force handling Kenobi. In CW Dooku, also, broke metal structure in one of the episodes.

Finally, in Jedi vs Sith guide to the Force Yoda stated that he can lift only 5 training rocks. Dooku, when training Opress, demonstrated lifting much more rocks than that.

Considering all of the above it makes sense why Yoda didn't try to Force handle Dooku like Ventress and was on the defensive instead.

Try to prove that Windu's TK is at least on parr with Yoda before comparing him to Dooku.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
DR made no such reference to Dooku having the edge.

MY has given you the quote. Not to mention Yoda claims it was Dooku who was the Temple's strongest ever student and most learned in the ways of the Force. NOT Mace.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Dooku was also older than Mace and these sparring sessions happened when Dooku had more expereince under his belt.

Mace had enough experience also. They don't just appoint newbys as head of the Jedi Council.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm still waiting on that source somebody claimed existed that stated Mace had fully developed Vaaped and Shatterpoint when these sparring sessions took place.

MY has given it multiple times.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Furthermore, it's still SPARRING.

It's one of 3 quotes that puts Dooku =/> Mace. Where are the quotes that puts Mace > Dooku? I've never seen or heard of them.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Anyways, Mace wins and wins pretty easily.


As usual you greatly underestimate Skywalker.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Mace's force powers are WELL above Anakin's.. He literally wouldn't need to move out of his chair and throw Anakin around.

Now your just going overboard KT. Mace isn't Sidious.

Skywalker has tanked off all of Dooku's Force TK attacks. And most recently he's force choked Ventress. And put Dark Side Barriss out with a mean Force wave.

The chances of Mace owning(or even defeating) ROTS Skywalker with the Force is substantially decreasing with each season of TCW.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which WINS of Anakin make anybody believe he could beat Mace is beyond me. Against and OLDER Dooku who was clearly pas this prime.. not only past his prime but expended vital energy fighting off TWO people first and not going for the kill? That is why people believe he beats Mace? JESUS :FACEPALM:

I keep hearing this speculation. How was Dooku past his prime? Where's the proof of this? He was one of the most powerful Jedi Knights who had ever lived. And an "Even Greater" Sith Lord.(ROTS Novel) He was only a Sith Lord in his old age.

And if you want to use the excuse that Skywalker only won because Kenobi helped him for a few seconds(unlikely looking at their CW fights). Then fine. What's Mace shown? Defeating Sidious with the aid of 3 Jedi Masters, who also cost Sidious precious seconds in the fight that he could have used to go all out on Sidious.

Sidious may have used precious energy to dispose of those 3 Masters before engaging Mace.

Did you watch the clone wars movie? What Windu did to the droid army is above ANYTHING dooku has EVER done. Further.. at NO point did Yoda try and TK anakin or Kenobi.. so those examples for Dooku doing so are mutually inclusive for Yoda.

Further, when did Dooku try and TK Anakin? Can I see where he tried to do that in the movie or novel. Further, and the more appropriate proof for this fight and in general... Is that Anakin couldn't even overhwelm Kenobi with his TK.. who as we know.. has pretty weak TK resistance shown over and over again. This undisputably means Mace's TK's is well above Anakin's and thus my statement was spot on.

Further about Yoda and Dooku... Funny how Dooku tried to Tk stuff at yoda.. and if his was stronger than yoda.. couldn't overpowered Yoda's TK resistance to said objects... It couldn't and yoda causually threw the stuff away. Force crushing a SMALL part of a pillar DOESN'T equal.. having to lift the ENTIRETY of the pillar. Yoda's is actually more impresisve and I'm not sure how you think othwerise. Further, Yoda TK'd the emperior and the emperor couldn't stop him from doing so. Let's play your game... Dooku's TK isn't on the same level as Sids.. Dooku knew he was no match for Sids.. Yoda did TK Sids... which is MORE impressive than ANYBODY dooku TK. I like this game. Try again?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Further, when did Dooku try and TK Anakin?

He does it all the time in TCW. Why do you always ignore that?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
MY has given you the quote. Not to mention Yoda claims it was Dooku who was the Temple's strongest ever student and most learned in the ways of the Force. NOT Mace.



Mace had enough experience also. They don't just appoint newbys as head of the Jedi Council.



MY has given it multiple times.



It's one of 3 quotes that puts Dooku =/> Mace. Where are the quotes that puts Mace > Dooku? I've never seen or heard of them.




As usual you greatly underestimate Skywalker.



Now your just going overboard KT. Mace isn't Sidious.

Skywalker has tanked off all of Dooku's Force TK attacks. And most recently he's force choked Ventress. And put Dark Side Barriss out with a mean Force wave.

The chances of Mace owning(or even defeating) ROTS Skywalker with the Force is substantially decreasing with each season of TCW.




I keep hearing this speculation. How was Dooku past his prime? Where's the proof of this? He was one of the most powerful Jedi Knights who had ever lived. And an "Even Greater" Sith Lord.(ROTS Novel) He was only a Sith Lord in his old age.

And if you want to use the excuse that Skywalker only won because Kenobi helped him for a few seconds(unlikely looking at their CW fights). Then fine. What's Mace shown? Defeating Sidious with the aid of 3 Jedi Masters, who also cost Sidious precious seconds in the fight that he could have used to go all out on Sidious.

Sidious may have used precious energy to dispose of those 3 Masters before engaging Mace.

Common sense... Dooku was close to the same age as Kenobi in ANH.. and Kenobi CLEARLY PAST HIS PRIME. Are you claiming Dooku WAS in his Prime? Or are you merely stating that Dooku was close enough to his prime?

Further, you do agree dooku is OLDER and MORE EXPERIENCED than Mace right? This you agree, but go, Mace had enough experience? Huh? Even a year or two experience more can make ALL the difference in the world. We see this over and over again in the mythos. True or not? Dooku had years on Mace...

Further WHERE IS THE QUOTE stating Mace had FULLY MASTERED Vaapad and S.P. where sparring Dooku.. He has NEVER provided such quotes.. I've asked for them and still haven't seen them. ALso, where is it stated Mace was on the head of the council during said sparring session. THere are A LOT of quotes to get here guys...

You could try and use that analogy but it fails miserably.. and I mean miserably... Dooku was stated in canon narration to have expended energies fighting them off.. Sids has ZERO ZILTCH NADA narration stating he expended any energy disposing of the jedi masters. Which of course is consistent with what we see.. Dooku fighting Kenobi and Anakin much much longer than Sids "foght" the masters.

I don't underestimate Anakin like you think.. I just know he has zero chance to beat Mace. WHO and I SAY THIS AGAIN WHO WHO WHO has Anakin beaten that is on the level of Sids?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He does it all the time in TCW. Why do you always ignore that?

You mean the times when it ACTUALLY WORKED but doesn't end the fight? I'm referring to the time Anakin actually won.. when did Dooku TRY and TK him then? maybe a reason why Aankin won eh? hmmmmmmm you're digging yourself a hole big buddy..

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You mean the times when it ACTUALLY WORKED but doesn't end the fight? I'm referring to the time Anakin actually won.. when did Dooku TRY and TK him then? maybe a reason why Aankin won eh? hmmmmmmm you're digging yourself a hole big buddy.. Are you 12?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Anakin and Dooku are different cases. Dooku didn't draw from rage and try to crush his enemies. He was calm, and refined in his battles, making Vaapad's ability to redirect such rather useless.

Anakin, on the other hand, draws from an incredible amount of rage and is an extremely offensive fighter. Mace would tap into that power and open himself up to the Dark Side, basically giving him unthinkable strength and speed, thus allowing him to blitz the Skywalker.

Anyone who can match the Emperor is more than a match for Skywalker.

Blitz Skywalker by tapping into his rage??? :/

I've already said that Vaapad is state of mind. Power is emotions and I can back it up by multiple evidence.

Darth Bane:
"Bane, drawing strength from the horror of their deaths, rose to his feet, coming into view like an apparition disgorged from the bowels of the planet.

"Nooo!" the father howled, desperately clutching his youngest son to his chest. "Spare this one, my lord!" he begged, tears streaming down his face. "He's the youngest. The last one I have."

Those weak enough to beg for mercy do not deserve it.

Still too weak to even raise his arms Bane reached out once more with the Force, bringing the lightsaber up to hover over his helpless victims. He waited, letting their horror mount, then plunged the burning blade into the young boy's heart.

The father clutched the corpse to his breast, his tortured laments echoing across the empty battlefield. "Why? Why did you have to kill them? Bane feasted on his anguish, gorging himself, feeling the dark side growing stronger in him. The symptoms of the poison receded enough so that he could raise his arm without the muscles trembling. The lightsaber sprang to his hand".

New Rebelion:
"Then Kueller laughed, a gurgling, familiar laugh. The Emperor's laugh, the unamused choking of a slave to the dark side.

Fueled by hatred, anger, and fear.

Luke was making him stronger. Luke's response, his hatred, his own self-loathing at creating this thing, this student who had become a horror, was making the thing even stronger. Kueller slammed his blade against Luke's, and the sparks lit the area all around them. Luke parried. Parried again. And again. He was trapped in a cycle of hatred and anger. If he fought, Kueller got stronger, and if he attacked, Kueller got stronger still".

Emotions is what gives power but by what margin it empowers depends on potential.

You are right, Windu would tap into Anakin's rage but it would never make him equally powerful. Anakin's potential is much higher, so by default he will benefit from rage more than Windu.

The above made NO sense... no sense at all.. So vaaped helped beat soembody above Anakin at that point in time.. WELL above Anakin I might add. It doesn't matter what Anakin could've been, that is speculation and not applicable. What we DO know is that Sids was FAR above Anakin across the board... So Vaapad could help Mace match Sids but couldn't do the same to Anakin because his potential is higher.. a big WTF are you talking about here is in order

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The above made NO sense... no sense at all.. So vaaped helped beat soembody above Anakin at that point in time.. WELL above Anakin I might add. It doesn't matter what Anakin could've been, that is speculation and not applicable. What we DO know is that Sids was FAR above Anakin across the board... So Vaapad could help Mace match Sids but couldn't do the same to Anakin because his potential is higher.. a big WTF are you talking about here is in order
Sidious was above Anakin in terms of Force mastery, not power.
Windu matched Sidious in saber skill, not power. His power inferiority still remained as evidenced from how he nearly got overpowered by lightning despite the fact that blocking with lightsaber is much easier technique than doing it with bare hands like Yoda.

Dooku was 90 in ROTS and Kenobi was i believe 57 in ANH

Originally posted by Acasha
Dooku was 90 in ROTS and Kenobi was i believe 57 in ANH
Dooku was 83 in rots sorry

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove Mace Windu got stronger since Dark Rendezvous

Read the RotS novel and make note of where it refers to Mace being a far more effective warrior AFTER Shatterpoint.

There you shall find your answer.

Originally posted by Arhael
But, if Anakin is really angry, he becomes unstoppable as he showed against Dooku in CW and Kenobi in RotS.


Uhm... Kenobi stopped him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Blitz Skywalker by tapping into his rage??? :/

I've already said that Vaapad is state of mind. Power is emotions and I can back it up by multiple evidence.

Darth Bane:
"Bane, drawing strength from the horror of their deaths, rose to his feet, coming into view like an apparition disgorged from the bowels of the planet.

"Nooo!" the father howled, desperately clutching his youngest son to his chest. "Spare this one, my lord!" he begged, tears streaming down his face. "He's the youngest. The last one I have."

Those weak enough to beg for mercy do not deserve it.

Still too weak to even raise his arms Bane reached out once more with the Force, bringing the lightsaber up to hover over his helpless victims. He waited, letting their horror mount, then plunged the burning blade into the young boy's heart.

The father clutched the corpse to his breast, his tortured laments echoing across the empty battlefield. "Why? Why did you have to kill them? Bane feasted on his anguish, gorging himself, feeling the dark side growing stronger in him. The symptoms of the poison receded enough so that he could raise his arm without the muscles trembling. The lightsaber sprang to his hand".

New Rebelion:
"Then Kueller laughed, a gurgling, familiar laugh. The Emperor's laugh, the unamused choking of a slave to the dark side.

Fueled by hatred, anger, and fear.

Luke was making him stronger. Luke's response, his hatred, his own self-loathing at creating this thing, this student who had become a horror, was making the thing even stronger. Kueller slammed his blade against Luke's, and the sparks lit the area all around them. Luke parried. Parried again. And again. He was trapped in a cycle of hatred and anger. If he fought, Kueller got stronger, and if he attacked, Kueller got stronger still".

Emotions is what gives power but by what margin it empowers depends on potential.

You are right, Windu would tap into Anakin's rage but it would never make him equally powerful. Anakin's potential is much higher, so by default he will benefit from rage more than Windu.

That doesn't prove anything regarding Vaapad. It is stated that it is both a state of mind and a fighting style, not just a state of mind. It says so in the RotS novelization during Windu's fight against Sidious. Like it or not, Vaapad is more effective against the dark side. That's just how it works. It utilizes the power of darkness within the opponent and turns it against him/her. If the opponent is a light sider, such as Yoda, it's only logical to deduce it won't work to its full potential because Yoda's darkness is practically nonexistent.

And you just made that up that BS about the potential being a factor.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
WHO and I SAY THIS AGAIN WHO WHO WHO has Anakin beaten that is on the level of Sids?

The Son and The Daughter.

Beat that.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Read the RotS novel and make note of where it refers to Mace being a far more effective warrior AFTER Shatterpoint.

There you shall find your answer.

DR takes place after Shatterpoint.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Uhm... Kenobi stopped him.

Being a Dumbass made him stoppable.

Originally posted by Arhael
Sidious was above Anakin in terms of Force mastery, not power.
Windu matched Sidious in saber skill, not power. His power inferiority still remained as evidenced from how he nearly got overpowered by lightning despite the fact that blocking with lightsaber is much easier technique than doing it with bare hands like Yoda.

That's is not applicable so who cares about that point. Nobody is arguing they become an exact clone of the person they are matching... The only relevant point is that it increases their battle formidability up and allow them to match or exceed what they might normally be able to. That is the only relevant part.

As somebody affirmed what I said... Dooku was 83 by the time of ROTS... Kenobi was in his 50 something... Kenobi was considered past his prime... AS was Dooku when Anakin beat him. IN fact, narration suggests that before turning to the DS... Dooku had contemplated retirement from active duty.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Like it or not, Vaapad is more effective against the dark side. That's just how it works. It utilizes the power of darkness within the opponent and turns it against him/her.

It gives Mace a Boost as he draws in his opponent's rage. And utilizes the power of that rage for himself. But what Arhael is saying is that he utilizes that through his own force potential. As in Mace fights at his own peak level when his opponent has massive amounts of rage.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
As somebody affirmed what I said... Dooku was 83 by the time of ROTS... Kenobi was in his 50 something... Kenobi was considered past his prime... AS was Dooku when Anakin beat him. IN fact, narration suggests that before turning to the DS... Dooku had contemplated retirement from active duty.

Yeah except he was more powerful as a Sith than he ever was as a Jedi.

And who says Kenobi was past his prime due to age? Is Darth Vader your source?

You mean besides him clearly LOOKING older...you mean besides Vadar sensing his powers were weaker. Yeah I'll take the obvious perception of Kenobi aging and Vaders word over.... somebody not involved in the making of the movie going utting his hands over his ears and going no I don't believe it:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It gives Mace a Boost as he draws in his opponent's rage. And utilizes the power of that rage for himself. But what Arhael is saying is that he utilizes that through his own force potential. As in Mace fights at his own peak level when his opponent has massive amounts of rage

Drawing from the opponent's rage is only part of what Vaapad does. Apart from de drawing from that rage Vaapad allows the user to use the darkness of the opponent against him/herself. It's both things.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER



Being a Dumbass made him stoppable.

Nonetheless - Kenobi BEAT angry Anakin. Interjecting the word dumbass doesn't make it any less true.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Read the RotS novel and make note of where it refers to Mace being a far more effective warrior AFTER Shatterpoint.

There you shall find your answer.

He was a master of Shatterpoints for decades.

He meant the book.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He meant the book.

Then he should provide a direct quote so I don't know he's paraphrasing out the ass.
EDIT:
Also Dark Rendezvous takes place in 20 BBY Shatterpoint in 22 BBY.
The quote still stands. Mace Windu as of Shatterpoint is still Dooku's equal...maybe.

Ok? Would you like me to tell him that myself?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ok? Would you like me to tell him that myself?

Nope it doesn't matter. Dark Rendezvous takes place 6 months before ROTS. Shatterpoint takes place in 22 BBY. The quote for Dooku>/= Mace still stands.

A quote that misread, might have been.

/Yoda



^ The quote does not read that Mace Windu might be the Count's equal on neutral ground, it reads that Mace might be the only one (as in, there may be others).

Originally posted by The_Tempest

^ The quote does not read that Mace Windu might be the Count's equal on neutral ground, it reads that Mace might be the only one (as in, there may be others).

No the quote reads that Mace Windu might be the only one (as in there may be none.)

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No the quote reads that Mace Windu might be the only one

^ Bingo.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
^ Bingo.

Yes. The point also stands that Mace Windu could perhaps stand on even ground with the Count. Perhaps he couldn't, perhaps there was another (Anakin) who could.

Anyway we're arguing semantics here. I'm not even arguing that Dooku> Windu. Only that Dooku=Windu. I've succeeded in that.

Semantics aside, that they are equals makes no sense. Dooku stated outright that he knew himself to be no match for Sidious. Windu defeated Sidious. Even taking Vaapad into account, clearly Anakin will be tapping the Darkside as well, meaning Windu will be able to use that and Shatterpoint to maximum effect. Anakin's eyes were already turning before RotS was over, and it's stated in more than one source that one must use immense amounts of Darkside energy or work with it for years before that begins. Pretty clear which of the two situations refers to Anakin.

Also, considering that thanks to this weekend's episode we're clear on the fact that Barriss> Dooku & is Anakin's equal, perhaps even superior to him as well had he not been aided by the guards and not able to get out into the open, I feel it's safe to say that knowing Mace can defeat Offee, he can also take Anakin.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Semantics aside, that they are equals makes no sense.
To you.


Sidious also refrained from making Mace eat saber with his force lightning.



Okay, it still won't give him the edge that people think it will. I'm kind of tired of people making it seem that unless you are Yoda or Luke Godwalker you can't compete with Mace in sabers.

This is wrong.
Your perceptions aside it's been stated multiple times that Dooku was Mace's superior in bladework. It's also been stated that prime Qui-Gon was his equal.

Dooku has never been said to be Mace's superior in blade work. And we've been over the Qui-Gon thing before: you've never produced the quote.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Dooku has never been said to be Mace's superior in blade work. And we've been over the Qui-Gon thing before: you've never produced the quote.

Yes...yes he has. It's been stated the only people who could outspar Mace were Dooku and Yoda.

As for the quote, I've identified it, it's in TPM novel. If anyone has a copy.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes...yes he has. It's been stated the only people who could outspar Mace were Dooku and Yoda.

No... No it wasn't. It was said Mace had only ever lost to those two, not that Dooku was his superior. The difference between the two concepts should be obvious enough not to require further elaboration.

And what about Qui-Gon?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda


Sidious also refrained from making Mace eat saber with his force lightning.


You mean that when Sidious was shooting lighting at Mace and he diffused it through his saber, Sidious was in actuality only attempting to show Mace his friendship and not trying to kill him? Woe is me for my foolishness.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No... No it wasn't. It was said Mace had only ever lost to those two, not that Dooku was his superior. The difference between the two concepts should be obvious enough not to require further elaboration.
Show me the quote that says Dooku ever lost to Windu. Doesn't exist. I know what the quote means. It means the two are on even ground, but if anyone has the edge it's Dooku.



The quote is in TPM novel. I just can't seem to locate a good torrent for it.

I never said such a quote existed, but the bottom line remains that Dooku may have bested him once during their long careers. More importantly, that Dooku beat Mace doesn't mean the reverse never occurred.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I never said such a quote existed, but the bottom line remains that Dooku may have bested him once during their long careers. More importantly, that Dooku beat Mace doesn't mean the reverse never occurred.

Burden of proof is on you mate. I know for a fact that it's been stated that Dooku outspared Windu prior to leaving the order. No such quote exists suggesting the opposite.

^ And that's just 1 of 3 quotes that suggests Dooku >/= Mace. The other two are in DR.

The only source I can think of that may suggest that Mace >/= Dooku is not a quote, but a fight they had in "Obsession." They seemed to have fought quite evenly but Dooku fled.

But TCW seems to have pretty much rendered that comic non-canon anyway.

Then of course if you look at their performances against foes they both fought- Sora Bulq and Ventress- Dooku actually looked superior. Though that's speculative. But nothing ever showed Mace to be outright superior to Dooku that's for sure.

That idea all seems to come down to the fact that he beat Sidious.

^ And that's just 1 of 3 quotes that suggests Dooku >/= Mace. The other two are in DR.

The only source I can think of that may suggest that Mace >/= Dooku is not a quote, but a fight they had in "Obsession." They seemed to have fought quite evenly but Dooku fled.

But TCW seems to have pretty much rendered that comic non-canon anyway.

Then of course if you look at their performances against foes they both fought- Sora Bulq and Ventress- Dooku actually looked superior. Though that's speculative. But nothing ever showed Mace to be outright superior to Dooku that's for sure.

That idea all seems to come down to the fact that he beat Sidious.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Drawing from the opponent's rage is only part of what Vaapad does. Apart from de drawing from that rage Vaapad allows the user to use the darkness of the opponent against him/herself. It's both things.

Well if he's drawing from their rage while he's fighting them, then he's obviously using their rage against them.

Just as the Darkside opponent is using his own rage against Mace.

Hence the superconducting loop. The same rage is used against both Mace and his opponent.

We know about the rage, I was pointing out the other part of Vaapad which consists on using the darkness of Windu's opponent against him/herself. Which is what you're missing.

^ I'm not missing that:


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It gives Mace a Boost as he draws in his opponent's rage. And utilizes the power of that rage for himself.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER




Well if he's drawing from their rage while he's fighting them, then he's obviously using their rage against them.


Rage is the Darkness used in this context.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Burden of proof is on you mate. I know for a fact that it's been stated that Dooku outspared Windu prior to leaving the order. No such quote exists suggesting the opposite.

I... never said such a quote exists. I simply reminded you that the nature and frequency of Dooku's defeat/s of Mace in their past does not necessarily conclude the Count is the superior duelist (we deal in averages, not instances). Moreover, Mace's ability to defeat a substantially superior dark sider in Sidious does imply Mace's ability to defeat the Count. More importantly, when they did clash during the Clone Wars... Dooku fled.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
To you.


Sidious also refrained from making Mace eat saber with his force lightning.



Okay, it still won't give him the edge that people think it will. I'm kind of tired of people making it seem that unless you are Yoda or Luke Godwalker you can't compete with Mace in sabers.

This is wrong.
Your perceptions aside it's been stated multiple times that Dooku was Mace's superior in bladework. It's also been stated that prime Qui-Gon was his equal.

This makes zero sense... These are the facts.... Dooku knew he was no match for Sids.. Period end of story. Windu on the other hand beat Sids... that totally completly trashes the theory that Dooku > than Anakin.. and also makes it clear they aren't even equals. COMBAT FEATS are exponentionally mroe important than narration. Somebody can talk all they want about how good they are or how good they are compared to blank... but what takes precedence are feats.

What are you implying here.. that sids held back and wasn't trying to make Windu eat his own blade.. Hogwash.

This thread shouldn't even have made it this far. Anakin is no match for Sids... Mace or Yoda... PERIOD

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ And that's just 1 of 3 quotes that suggests Dooku >/= Mace. The other two are in DR.

The only source I can think of that may suggest that Mace >/= Dooku is not a quote, but a fight they had in "Obsession." They seemed to have fought quite evenly but Dooku fled.

But TCW seems to have pretty much rendered that comic non-canon anyway.

Then of course if you look at their performances against foes they both fought- Sora Bulq and Ventress- Dooku actually looked superior. Though that's speculative. But nothing ever showed Mace to be outright superior to Dooku that's for sure.

That idea all seems to come down to the fact that he beat Sidious.

This is SPARRING FOR GOD'S SAKE... WHO THE **** CARES ABOUT SPARRING. Part of Windu's style is very aggressive and lethal in nature. These are facts. Making it a sparring session INHERENTLY takes away those key elements. Going for the kill DOESN'T eliminate them. I'm totally unclear how this goes beyond some of you. Have some of you never played sports and competed at even the High School level? I mean for ****'s sake, if you did, you would understand the difference between sparring and a life and death situation. Dooku out sparring Mace.. pretty much means ziltch.

Not only does it take away Vaapad and some of its attributes it also takes away Shatterpoint... How does shatterpoint work in sparring.. The whole point of it is to find the shatterpoint of your opponent and get the win... In a saber fight that means injuring or killing your foe... Which of course you can't do in sparring. So again, sparring has little signifcance to the real deal.

Ummm yeah and that is a huge huge thing... If one boxer beat a good Ali and another guy didn't and admitted he's way inferior to all... what are we suppose to think boxer B is better cause he beat Jerry Quarry? Or because he looked good in sparring with boxer A? No, beating one of the best counts for a lot A LOT MORE than either.. AS IT SHOULD.

Mace Windu Vaapad-Blitzes him. Nuff said.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is SPARRING FOR GOD'S SAKE... WHO THE **** CARES ABOUT SPARRING. Part of Windu's style is very aggressive and lethal in nature. These are facts. Making it a sparring session INHERENTLY takes away those key elements. Going for the kill DOESN'T eliminate them. I'm totally unclear how this goes beyond some of you. Have some of you never played sports and competed at even the High School level? I mean for ****'s sake, if you did, you would understand the difference between sparring and a life and death situation. Dooku out sparring Mace.. pretty much means ziltch.

Not only does it take away Vaapad and some of its attributes it also takes away Shatterpoint... How does shatterpoint work in sparring.. The whole point of it is to find the shatterpoint of your opponent and get the win... In a saber fight that means injuring or killing your foe... Which of course you can't do in sparring. So again, sparring has little signifcance to the real deal.

Well clearly Sparring gives some indication since it was only Yoda and Dooku who could beat him.

And again your missing the point that it's just 1 of 3 quotes that has Dooku =/> Mace.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm yeah and that is a huge huge thing... If one boxer beat a good Ali and another guy didn't and admitted he's way inferior to all... what are we suppose to think boxer B is better cause he beat Jerry Quarry? Or because he looked good in sparring with boxer A? No, beating one of the best counts for a lot A LOT MORE than either.. AS IT SHOULD.

Again your missing the point. It's just more evidence that Mace isn't in a different league to Dooku. Not at all.

Every source, every evidence suggests a level of parity between the 2.

Even their fight in Obsession which had Dooku fleeing was clearly not one sided. They were fighting very evenly. And there was a whole party of Jedi and Troopers out to get Dooku so we can't really put too much into him fleeing, except that he realizes that even IF he can defeat Mace it wouldn't be with any kind of ease.

So again this whole Mace > Dooku idea all comes down to Mace beating Sidious.

Yes Mace beat Sidious after starting the fight with 3 Jedi Masters on his side. But then Dooku held his own against Yoda. Was Mace's feat more impressive? Probably. Did it outright show Mace as Dooku's superior? I doubt it.

Honestly there's nothing anywhere that suggests Mace is in a league above Dooku. The EU has certainly always had them to be relatively on par with each other.

^ Oh and he also fought Mace and Obi-Wan together at one point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1ieRQ-4BB4

I know we don't know how long that lasted outside of gameplay. Could have been 5 seconds.

But it does contribute to all evidence that Mace isn't out of Dooku's league. And this fight is actually canon to TCW. The Obsession one probably isn't now.

ummm no not really... sparring doesn't give much of any indication... sure if you're arguing is gives us SOMETHING.. well of course.. it does somethhing. But that something is far removed from what an actual fight would look like with Mace going all out. As I stated, which you didn't address.. you're essentially taking away the key advantages that Mace has in Vaapad and Shatterpoint and basically making it a fencing match. So, of course, Dooku might beat him or it would be a good fight.. that is Dooku's style to begin with.

Dooku holding his own... is kinda misleading... The novel makes it pretty clear that had Dooku stayed he was going to lose that fight. The movie even seems to indicate as much... Dooku tried everything he could throw at Yoda.. and yoda just casually dismissed it... "a lot to learn you still have" Let's not act like Dooku ever had any advantage over Yoda or even seemed to do anything to him. If anythning, it came across like Yoda had the advantage. The whole point is, YES beating somebody superior to Dooku.. DOES count for a lot, even though you don't think it should. It should and does.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Oh and he also fought Mace and Obi-Wan together at one point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1ieRQ-4BB4

I know we don't know how long that lasted outside of gameplay. Could have been 5 seconds.

But it does contribute to all evidence that Mace isn't out of Dooku's league. And this fight is actually canon to TCW. The Obsession one probably isn't now.

Did you just use a game and try and compare its canon validity to the movie or novel? Sorry, not the same form of canon.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ I'm not missing that:







Rage is the Darkness used in this context.

Then why would you refer to darkness as rage?

They're not the same thing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I... never said such a quote exists. I simply reminded you that the nature and frequency of Dooku's defeat/s of Mace in their past does not necessarily conclude the Count is the superior duelist (we deal in averages, not instances). Moreover, Mace's ability to defeat a substantially superior dark sider in Sidious does imply Mace's ability to defeat the Count. More importantly, when they did clash during the Clone Wars... Dooku fled.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I... never said such a quote exists. I simply reminded you that the nature and frequency of Dooku's defeat/s of Mace in their past does not necessarily conclude the Count is the superior duelist (we deal in averages, not instances). Moreover, Mace's ability to defeat a substantially superior dark sider in Sidious does imply Mace's ability to defeat the Count. More importantly, when they did clash during the Clone Wars... Dooku fled.

You are dealing in the questionably canon here. Obsession hardly counts anymore.

And another time when they fought, Windu had Kenobi with him.
Also, consider this:
1. Mace defeated Sidious, when Sidious didn't ever use his force powers.
2. That's a load of A>B>C logic bull. Sidious has never fought Mace Windu, Dooku has fought Mace many a time.
3. For all we know there are several circumstances where Sidious would have won against Mace. That was just a fluke.

For example. Sidious vs. Windu in the Grand Convocation chamber would end in Sidious' victory with moderate difficulty. ala TK.

I think mace windu all the way. No doubt

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You are dealing in the questionably canon here. Obsession hardly counts anymore.

The only thing about Obsession that has been officially deemed n-canon are the fates of Gallia & Ventress. Likewise, when Evan Piell was killed in the Citadel arc, the Coruscant Nights trilogy was not swept off the table.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And another time when they fought, Windu had Kenobi with him.

And Dooku had a squad of MagnaGuards with him, so what?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also, consider this:
1. Mace defeated Sidious, when Sidious didn't ever use his force powers.

You should reread the script; Sidious did use the Force against Mace.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
2. That's a load of A>B>C logic bull. Sidious has never fought Mace Windu, Dooku has fought Mace many a time.

Kit had never fought Grievous prior to "Lair of Grievous" and still tooled him; Kenobi fought Grievous repeatedly and met with less than spectacular results. Familiarity works both ways.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
3. For all we know there are several circumstances where Sidious would have won against Mace. That was just a fluke.

No doubt, except that the novelization attributes Mace's victory to talents that will be in play against Dooku. Vaapad made Mace the Dark Lord's equal, which puts him in excess of Dooku.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
For example. Sidious vs. Windu in the Grand Convocation chamber would end in Sidious' victory with moderate difficulty. ala TK.

Perhaps. But as Sidious is superior to Dooku in all respects, this is irrelevant. If one considers Mace's victory legitimate (the result of shatterpoint charism and Vaapad), then Dooku hasn't got a prayer.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only thing about Obsession that has been officially deemed n-canon are the fates of Gallia & Ventress. Likewise, when Evan Piell was killed in the Citadel arc, the Coruscant Nights trilogy was not swept off the table.
Fair, but Dooku was low on time and was focused on escaping, not some duel with Windu.


Suggests equality.


I mean try and toss Mace out of the window.


And yet he had seen Grievous' fighting style earlier in Lair of General Grievous. And Shi-Cho is designed for fights against multiple opponents.


That's not how that works. The superconducting loop will make him the equal of whoever he fights. Given that him and Dooku are equals, he won't be getting that large of a powerboost.



One fight does not mean Mace could trounce Sidious. For all we know Sidious takes in 9/10, that 1/10 was what we saw in the movie. Meanwhile Dooku vs. Mace could be 55:45 in Dooku's favor, where Sids vs. Mace is likely 65:35 Sidious' favor. Do you see what I mean?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
ummm no not really... sparring doesn't give much of any indication... sure if you're arguing is gives us SOMETHING.. well of course.. it does somethhing. But that something is far removed from what an actual fight would look like with Mace going all out. As I stated, which you didn't address.. you're essentially taking away the key advantages that Mace has in Vaapad and Shatterpoint and basically making it a fencing match. So, of course, Dooku might beat him or it would be a good fight.. that is Dooku's style to begin with.

Dooku holding his own... is kinda misleading... The novel makes it pretty clear that had Dooku stayed he was going to lose that fight. The movie even seems to indicate as much... Dooku tried everything he could throw at Yoda.. and yoda just casually dismissed it... "a lot to learn you still have" Let's not act like Dooku ever had any advantage over Yoda or even seemed to do anything to him. If anythning, it came across like Yoda had the advantage. The whole point is, YES beating somebody superior to Dooku.. DOES count for a lot, even though you don't think it should. It should and does.

Anyone, and I mean A N Y O N E who believes that sparring is truly indicative of how actual combat would play out is... ignorant to say the least; Ignorant of real world combat and ignorant of life. I guarandamntee you that Mace wouldn't have used Vaapad in a sparring session, especially given that he was terrified of the darkness until after the vents of SP. To think that he would practice a combat style that takes its user through the penumbra of the darkside in anything less than a life or death scenario is asinine.

Hey, you're preaching to the choir here. I've gone on-record saying a.) Sidious vs. Mace has more holes in it than Swiss cheese and b.) I abhor the idea of Mace being Dooku's better.

But if one assumes Vaapad!Mace =/> Sidious, then Dooku doesn't have a chance.

Sparring is like fencing... i.e. Dooku's style to begin with.. Just the fact that mace compete at Dooku's forte while supressing his inherent advantages speaks volumes about who is better.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Hey, you're preaching to the choir here. I've gone on-record saying a.) Sidious vs. Mace has more holes in it than Swiss cheese and b.) I abhor the idea of Mace being Dooku's better.

But if one assumes Vaapad!Mace =/> Sidious, then Dooku doesn't have a chance.

Vaapad give Mace a powerboost ~ to who he's combatting.

And no you can't assume Mace>/= Sidious.

See you are looking at it the wrong way.

Let's say Mace vs. Sidious is 99:1 in Sidious' favor, but the duel in ROTS was that one time where Mace wins. That does not make Mace Sidious' superior. AT ALL. Nor does that take away from the legitimacy of his victory.
I personally rate Mace v. Sidious a 65:35 in Sidious' favor. That means we just saw one of the 35 times Mace wins.
I view Dooku v. Windu at around 55:45 maybe even just 50:50. Do you see my point?

^ That is, 65:35 in Sidious's favor including Vaapad's boost? Because without it, I'd say the chances in Mace's favor aren't looking too hot.

And? This fight happens on "Open plain" with no higher grounds making your point irrelevant.


That IS applicable. His struggling against lightning is direct proof that Windu is not as powerful as either Yoda or Sidious.


Indeed, you are right but same applies to others, they, also, have state of mind that makes them perform fat better than usual. For Anakin it is his rage. For Yoda it is being avatar of light. For Kenobi it is being himself and acceptance of duty. For Sidious it is his madness and evilness. For Luke it is love for his family and order or rage in some cases. For Jacen it is pain and being beyond light and dark. For Marek it is sacrfice for rebels.

All characters tend to perform far better than usual during crucial fights. Vaapad is the answer to Windu's inner darkness, it's what works best for him. Other characters achieve similar or better effect by other means.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
That doesn't prove anything regarding Vaapad. It is stated that it is both a state of mind and a fighting style, not just a state of mind. It says so in the RotS novelization during Windu's fight against Sidious. Like it or not, Vaapad is more effective against the dark side. That's just how it works. It utilizes the power of darkness within the opponent and turns it against him/her. If the opponent is a light sider, such as Yoda, it's only logical to deduce it won't work to its full potential because Yoda's darkness is practically nonexistent.

And you just made that up that BS about the potential being a factor.
That's for you to prove that Vaapad is more effective against darksiders. Keep in mind that Vaapad's main purpose is to channel inner darkness into something positive. If Windu's opponent is lightsider, he can focus on his own darkness instead to achieve same effect. Moreover, Vaapad is about relishing fight, so even fighting lightsider Windu would still relish fight.

Your logical deduction fails for two reasons:

First, there is no evidence that Vaapad is less effective against lightsider because Windu never had serious fight with one, which means that your conclusion is built on assumption from single fight against a darksider.

Second, you used Yoda as example. If you believe that Windu wouldn't be able to equal Yoda because he is lightsider, then you are wrong:

"Perhaps only Master Mace Windu equaled him in skill and reputation - though Master Windu argued that he was still but a Padawan compaed to Master Yoda.

Mace Windu was considered his equal in terms of ability, insight and command.

In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.
" The power of the Jedi sourcebook.

So, if Windu is on parr with Yoda and Dooku despite being not as effective against lightsiders, then how comes his saber performance against Sidious wasn't better than Yoda's???


Again you are wrong. Specifically you are wrong to consider rage and darkness of the opponent as two separate things. I've already said that emotion and power is the same thing and I was not assuming:

"Tahiri shook her head. "Abeloth is no herbivore, Fett. She feeds on fear. Anguish. On what beings feel as they suffer and die."

Fett's helmet swung back. "You're telling me she feeds on death?"

"Not in the way you mean," Tahiri replied. "She feeds on the feelings death causes. Fear and pain release a lot of dark side energy. That's what Abeloth is after".

"Abeloth was feeding on the dark side energy of their fear, Ben knew. He had seen her do it on Pydyr, when the entire population of the moon believed they were dying from an illusory plague. And now she was doing it on Coruscant, where the anxiety of the inhabitants had to be mounting by the hour as the battle raged ever more fiercely. With trillions of inhabitants on Coruscant, Abeloth's harvest would be limitless. Ben could not help wondering if this had been her plan all along-to set Jedi and Sith against each other, then feast on the fallout."

And this is from RotS:
"Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts"

This is more than enough evidence to conclude that darkside energy is Force energy that contains negative emotions.

Both Windu and Sidious were drawing on that energy as it surrounded them. And Sidious as more powerful one can draw on the Force more heavily. And that's why Windu struggled so much against his lightning despite having advantage of using lightsaber.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's also been stated that prime Qui-Gon was his equal.
Actually it hasn't. I personally digged through TPM novel and all sources available. Nowhere it is stated that Qui-Gon was his equal or sparred with him. It's wookieepedia misinformation.

Good point about Dark Randevous happening after Shatterpoint, though.

I still think some of you have never played a sport in your life.. or at least one past the playground of your junior high...

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I still think some of you have never played a sport in your life.. or at least one past the playground of your junior high... Are you equating the practise and playing of sports, to the practise and execution of lethal combat?

Scroll back and see the boxing analogy I used.. i.e. SPARRING. For somebody to think sparring equates to a no holds barred fight... tells me one of two things.. they are devoid of common sense.. or never played any sport at any competitive level. There is a huge difference between playing 21 in basketball and playing one v one. Can 21 show skills and abilities that might translate to a 1 v 1 game.. sure.. is it the same? Not even close. Same with the boxing analogy I used earlier.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Anyone, and I mean A N Y O N E who believes that sparring is truly indicative of how actual combat would play out is... ignorant to say the least; Ignorant of real world combat and ignorant of life. I guarandamntee you that Mace wouldn't have used Vaapad in a sparring session, especially given that he was terrified of the darkness until after the vents of SP. To think that he would practice a combat style that takes its user through the penumbra of the darkside in anything less than a life or death scenario is asinine.
You are right. It's unlikely that Windu would use Vaapad in sparring, so logically he shouldn't be stated as Yoda's equal in terms of skill. Yet, they are still considered equal according to the sourcebook text I provided above. Their performance against Sidious was equal as well. Windu and Sidious had impasse until Sidious partially redirected his effort, which gave Windu advantage. Yoda and Sidious, also, were even until Sidious nearly fell from platform and dropped lightsaber. Yoda and Windu showed comparable saber performance in sparring, against Dooku and Sidious. It is consistent that they are even in terms of skill.

SIds didn't DROP the sabe just to drop itr.. he was FORCED to drop it by Yoda's assault.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's for you to prove that Vaapad is more effective against darksiders. Keep in mind that Vaapad's main purpose is to channel inner darkness into something positive. If Windu's opponent is lightsider, he can focus on his own darkness instead to achieve same effect. Moreover, Vaapad is about relishing fight, so even fighting lightsider Windu would still relish fight.

No, Vaapad's main purpose is not to channel your inner darkness into something positive, it is to channel your opponent's darkness:


"The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent." - Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force



There's your proof.

I'll say it again: how han he channel Yoda's darkness if it's practically nonexistent?

On the other hand, he can very well channel Sidious' or Dooku's darkness; ergo, making Vaapad more effective against dark siders.




As seen in the quote provided above, it is no assumption. It is fact. Vaapad users redirect the opponent's darkness towards themselves.



I never said Windu wouldn't be able to equal Yoda, I simply said Vaapad wouldn't be as effective against him.




Emotion does not equate power. You can draw power from strong emotions, which is different and it is what you have just proven.

Power can be gained from various means, such as knowledge and training, not only emotions. Emotions give the invidivual a boost to their power. By no means is emotion the same thing as power.

And as I've proven, I'm not wrong to consider rage and darkness as separate things. It is specifically said that one half of the superconducting loop is the opponent's rage, and the other half is his/her darkness.

Whatever issues Lucas' statements have, fact is he created the characters and decided that as they currently stand, Mace and Yoda are on Sidious' level, and their fights bear it out.

Your assertions are on par to me denying that Luke only beat Vader because Vader was holding back, as state in multiple sources.

As per the showing, Windu was capable of defeating Sidious at that point, something that Anakin could have no way done at that point in his journey through the Darkside.

You didn't get the point. Mace and Sidious had impasse. Windu won by taking advantage of circumstances. Yoda and Sidious fought evenly as well and Yoda managed to disarm him because of specific circumstances just like Windu.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
No, Vaapad's main purpose is not to channel your inner darkness into something positive, it is to channel your opponent's darkness:

"The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent." - Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

No, this is the main purpose:
"I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own own darkness into a weapon of light".


And I will answer again that he doesn't need to channel Yoda's darkness, he can focus on his own instead:

"Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle".

So as per this quote I see no reason to assume that it wouldn't be as effective against lightsiders. The only difference is that Windu would risk to fall to the darkside by utilizing his own darkness.


No, it's assumption. You give certain interpretation to darkness and ignore EU examples that define it. Force users draw on the Force, Sidious wasn't sending anything but physical strikes for Windu to redirect. Force merely flows though them and the only thing that gets released into the Force is emotions. The only interpretation that goes along with the rest of the material is that Windu was feeding on emotions of Sidious and utilizing it to fight Sidious. But emotion itself is not Force, it's what gives focus to Force user. It means that Windu just like Sidious was focusing on darkside emotions. But the one who is more powerful will still benefit more from it as he can draw on the Force more heavily.


Which you can't prove. They are considered equal in skill, abilities and command. And against Sidious they gave exactly equal saber performance. Both fought him evenly. If Vaapad helps more against darksiders, then Yoda's equal should have demonstrated better performance against Sidious than Yoda.


So what's your point? Windu was redirecting Sidious' knowledge and training? Power you talk about stays inside them. The only way to draw that power out is by using Force drain.

Force surrounds them all around. Force users can use that Force either to empower their physical capabilities or to do direct Force attack. Sidious used Force to empower his body and attack physically. Windu needed to counter by empowering his own body. Both draw on the Force that surrounds them and the only extra thing it contained is emotions from them. Vaapad is state of mind, which means that this superconduit loop happens on mental level, it's not a real thing.


I actually now see the problem, I can't really blame you for interpreting it differently. Because this source actually contradicts the novel.
Superconducting loop is not opponent's rage on one side and opponent's darkness on the other:

"Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow"

This quote comes from novel and according to it half of the loop is Windu himself and the other is Sidious (shadow).

Please, use novel quotes. It contains complete description as well as demonstration, while that guide only twisted part of it.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Whatever issues Lucas' statements have, fact is he created the characters and decided that as they currently stand, Mace and Yoda are on Sidious' level, and their fights bear it out.

Your assertions are on par to me denying that Luke only beat Vader because Vader was holding back, as state in multiple sources.

As per the showing, Windu was capable of defeating Sidious at that point, something that Anakin could have no way done at that point in his journey through the Darkside.

A>B>C didn't really work that logically in ROTS. Which Lucas made btw. So you'll need a better argument than that to prove Mace > Peak Anakin.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Whatever issues Lucas' statements have, fact is he created the characters and decided that as they currently stand, Mace and Yoda are on Sidious' level, and their fights bear it out.

Your assertions are on par to me denying that Luke only beat Vader because Vader was holding back, as state in multiple sources.

As per the showing, Windu was capable of defeating Sidious at that point, something that Anakin could have no way done at that point in his journey through the Darkside.

What are you talking about back in ROTS bonus features it's made clear that.
Dooku, Sidious, Mace, Yoda, and Anakin are level 9 duelists. Why can't you people get it through your head that Dooku is on the same level as Mace, and, to a lesser degree, Sidious.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
What are you talking about back in ROTS bonus features it's made clear that.
Dooku, Sidious, Mace, Yoda, and Anakin are level 9 duelists. Why can't you people get it through your head that Dooku is on the same level as Mace, and, to a lesser degree, Sidious.


Any links to the source? I never read it myself.

Originally posted by Arhael


Any links to the source? I never read it myself.

In the Making of ROTS Nick Gillard calls Mace, Yoda, Sidious and Dark Side Anakin all level 9's(In Saber combat). And Kenobi's rated as an 8.

I don't remember him rating Dooku. But he suggested Dooku lost to Anakin because he underestimated him.

He also stated Anakin and Obi-Wan were equals because they couldn't get past each other's defenses.

I can give you the exact quotes if you want.

Originally posted by Arhael


Any links to the source? I never read it myself.
http://starwars.com/site/homingbeacon/

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In the Making of ROTS Nick Gillard calls Mace, Yoda, Sidious and Dark Side Anakin all level 9's(In Saber combat). And Kenobi's rated as an 8.

I don't remember him rating Dooku. But he suggested Dooku lost to Anakin because he underestimated him.

He also stated Anakin and Obi-Wan were equals because they couldn't get past each other's defenses.

I can give you the exact quotes if you want.


cry

Goddamn it LucasArts they took it down.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In the Making of ROTS Nick Gillard calls Mace, Yoda, Sidious and Dark Side Anakin all level 9's(In Saber combat). And Kenobi's rated as an 8.

I don't remember him rating Dooku. But he suggested Dooku lost to Anakin because he underestimated him.

He also stated Anakin and Obi-Wan were equals because they couldn't get past each other's defenses.

I can give you the exact quotes if you want.
Yeah I actually messed up he didn't mention Dooku in that one.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In the Making of ROTS Nick Gillard calls Mace, Yoda, Sidious and Dark Side Anakin all level 9's(In Saber combat). And Kenobi's rated as an 8.

I don't remember him rating Dooku. But he suggested Dooku lost to Anakin because he underestimated him.

He also stated Anakin and Obi-Wan were equals because they couldn't get past each other's defenses.

I can give you the exact quotes if you want.

If Kenobi is an 8, how can he also be Anakin's equal? 8/=9.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
If Kenobi is an 8, how can he also be Anakin's equal? 8/=9.

Because Kenobi is not Anakin's equal.

The Vaapad argument is pretty dumb. The relevant sources very explicitly state that Vaapad draws on not only Mace's internal darkness but that of his enemy. It's not mutually exclusive, it's a two-part process.

/discussion

On a side note, I maintain that Vaapad is one of the worst ideas ever.

^ This.

Yes.

Vaapad works both ways, drawing from Windu's own darkness and that of the enemy, as well. The quotes you (Arhael) provided are not contradicting anything, they're just adding. You said that since Yoda, our example, is a light sider, Windu would draw from his own darkness instead. Well, if Yoda was a dark sider, he would draw from his own darkness and that of his opponent's, adding to his power even further and making Vaapad more effective against dark siders.

It's quite simple.

And I was just making clear that emotions do not equate power. I wasn't saying it had anything to do with Vaapad.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Vaapad argument is pretty dumb. The relevant sources very explicitly state that Vaapad draws on not only Mace's internal darkness but that of his enemy. It's not mutually exclusive, it's a two-part process.

/discussion

On a side note, I maintain that Vaapad is one of the worst ideas ever.

Agreed. Although it does make sense as the most powerful form. I dunno I'm kind of split about it. The thing I don't like is how haxx it is.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Agreed. Although it does make sense as the most powerful form. I dunno I'm kind of split about it. The thing I don't like is how haxx it is.

yup

To be fair, Vaapad was not Stover's idea. In fact, he's gone on record that he hates not only the concept of Vaapad, but lightsaber forms in general (a sentiment I share).

Curiously, George specifically said in the featurettes of Attack of the Clones that every single Jedi has his own unique style, presumably the product of his or her own talents, preferences, etc. I don't know who came up with the idea to create 7, slap names on 'em, and give them RPG-esque strengths & weaknesses....

Originally posted by The_Tempest
yup

To be fair, Vaapad was not Stover's idea. In fact, he's gone on record that he hates not only the concept of Vaapad, but lightsaber forms in general (a sentiment I share).

Curiously, George specifically said in the featurettes of Attack of the Clones that every single Jedi has his own unique style, presumably the product of his or her own talents, preferences, etc. I don't know who came up with the idea to create 7, slap names on 'em, and give them RPG-esque strengths & weaknesses....

Except Mace Windu's power has no weakness...except perhaps Dun Moch, which Darth Sidious surprisingly didn't use against him.

Yeah, it was a weak attempt to allow the Dark Side to be used by Jedi.

I like the concepts of lightsaber forms, however, I personally dislike Vaapad as well.

If Mace were facing a light sided user of the force, then he wouldn't really be utilizing Vaapad, he'd be using Juyo-- ie. he'd only be able to channel his own darkness against his opponent. However, even without being able to channel an opponent's darkness, Mace was still nearly on par with Yoda.

However, if he faces a dark side practitioner, Mace is able to utilize 'true' Vaapad-- ie. he is able to channel both his own inner darkness, AND that of his opponent, allowing him to use both emotional aspects against said opponent. This added metaphysical ability is what allowed Mace to dominate Palpatine(who is =/> Yoda.)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In the Making of ROTS Nick Gillard calls Mace, Yoda, Sidious and Dark Side Anakin all level 9's(In Saber combat). And Kenobi's rated as an 8.

I don't remember him rating Dooku. But he suggested Dooku lost to Anakin because he underestimated him.

He also stated Anakin and Obi-Wan were equals because they couldn't get past each other's defenses.

I can give you the exact quotes if you want.
Just did my homework.

"In Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine . On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious". - The making of RotS.



"The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent". - Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

vs

"Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow"

One talks about fury and power of darkness. Another about Mace himself becoming channel competeled by Sidious. Contradiction is rather obvious.

And you are assuming here. You claim Mace can draw from his own darkness as well as opponent simultaneously. You assume that he can spread his focus on both his emotions and opponents. The novel doesn't support this. It states that Windu focuses on Sidious' fury, not on his whatever feelings.

And again you assume that Windu uses power of his opponent like it's a Force technique, when Vaapad is not. It is lightsaber style on first place, physical exercise. What distinguishes Form VII is that it requires to use emotions. State of mind refers to emotional state. It's all happens in head. Windu did not borrow power as a matter of energy, he focused on emotions.

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again.

He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.

He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.

He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office."

Now tell me. It states that he drew rage and power into inmost center and let it out like a fountain. How is it possible on physical level? Such things are possible only on mental level. On physical level they are drawing on Force and attack physically. The statement goes on to explain how Windu is faced his darkness and is not afraid of it, which is emotional matter.

Farther this:
"Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.

And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source."

Absorbing and deflecting lightning with lightsaber is a technique completely unrelated to Vaapad, yet, Windu attributes this feat to Vaapad as well. Either Vaapad is actual Force technique, which it is clearly not or Windu utilized the same Force technique as others to counter lightning but with Vaapad state of mind. Vaapad is not a Force power, so how can you explain that Vaapad was used to counter it?

And again I will point out at things you did not address.

Yoda and Windu are stated to be equal is sabers by at least two different sources. If Vaapad works better against darksiders, then logically Windu is supposed to perform better than Yoda against them. Yet, Windu's saber performance is not better than Yoda's against Sidious. And his performance against lightning is below Yoda despite using lightsaber.

Back to the topic. Vaapad didn't make Windu more skilled saber combatant than Sidious, neither it made him equally powerful. Same will apply to Anakin.


So you agree that Windu is on parr with Yoda. Vaapad did not allow Windu to dominate, it allowed him to reach "impasse". How he disarmed him is a matter of circumstance as Sidious partially redirected his effort. And Yoda with no Vaapad fought Sidious evenly as well. And again it was Sidious who got disarmed, although, it was circumstantial as well. Windu did not perform better than Yoda in any sense despite being on parr with him and having Vaapad, which supposed to give him advantage against darksiders.

Well first.. I did like your info on Vaapad.. I thought that was pretty cool to read. However, you view on Mace.. and Yoda and how they did against Sids, is well, not on point. It wasn't an impasse.. Mace WON the fight... Sids wasn't the only person distracted... Mace also sensed Anakin's shatterpoint. That is a wash there and ultimately pointless regardless. You say Mace didn't do better than yoda.. and actually site Yoda doing better. This couldn't be further from the truth unless Yoda actually lost. Yoda stalemated Sids and at best look slightly superior. Kinda like a soccer game ending in a draw but one team winning on penalty kicks.. did they win.. sure.. but MUCH different than another team beating somebody 2-0.. One if conclusive.. the other is not.

Mace WON... Yoda didn't. There is no amount of excuses or analogies or reasons that change that simple fact. You reasoning is even flawed.. citing that Yoda was able to deflect Sids lighting without a saber.. While Mace didn't. This fails firstly because there is zero evidence or narration that suggest Mace couldn't do that himself. Secondly, it fails because Mace DIDN'T GET DISARMED like Yoda did. Mace showed better combat prowess and awareness in not doing so. Sids shot Yoda saber from his hand.. He also shot at Mace and Mace MAINTAINED his saber. Mace actually DISARMED sids during saber combat.. Yoda made sids drop is saber to regain his footing. Plus the obvious fact, and one i stated, MACE WON.

Anyways, I liked your points on Vaapad.. the rest.. well.. it was lacking

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi Sids wasn't the only person distracted... Mace also sensed Anakin's shatterpoint. That is a wash there and ultimately pointless regardless.
Indeed, I pointed at it ones as well that Shatterpoint was useless exercise. But this distraction is not equal to Sidious'. Windu put his hardest into Vaapad and reached his best performance. Shatterpoint did not slow him down or decreased his performance in any way, which means that it was very subtle and not demanding exercise. Sidious on the other hand was rooting himself in place with TK. That's active "altering" Force power that not only redirected part of his effort and slowed him down, it, also, decreased his ability to move around effectively.


I judged by performance. Judging by win/lose is not always the best thing as it most often involves circumstances, especially, when characters have similar prowess. As example Kenobi won Anakin, yet, for the most fight it was Anakin demonstrating superior performance pressing advantage, while Kenobi barely surviving.

Windu won due to circumstances. Yoda didn't win due to circumstances. These are facts as well. Windu disarmed Sidious due to circumstances. Yet, Yoda disarmed Sidious due to circumstances too. In saber performance they are even. The difference is that Sidious started faking weakness ones disarmed, while against Yoda he immediately used Force attack. Outcome of the fight with Sidious saber fights was a toss up in which circumstances decided.

This:
How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some gauge as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground.

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

- Nick Gillard, Homing Beacon #126

All three Windu, Yoda and Sidious are level 9, that's why circumstances is main factor. But Kenobi is 8, while Anakin is 9 like Sidious. Yet, Kenobi won due to circumstances.


It actually specifically points that without lightsaber Windu is helpless:
"without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on"


Indeed. But that's another circumstance. Windu's race is specifically known for his strength, while Yoda's strength is on opposite smaller than usual. Thus, making it unsuitable for him to block lightning with saber. Equally Windu has no absorb ability, so blocking with saber is his best option. The actual demonstration of blocking lightning is what matters. Lightsaber deflects and absorbs lightning. Windu's job is to redirect lightning into saber as well as root himself in place. Yoda did all the same thing but on top of that he needed to absorb and redirect lightning himself, which is harder effort. Logically Windu is supposed to have less problem, especially with Vaapad. But instead Windu nearly gets his lightsaber into his face and shouts "He is too strong", while Yoda presses his hands forward with grim face and Sidious tips his head with painful expression until explosion splits them.


Well, both disarmed Sidious during actual combat due to a circumstance. Keep in mind that I was actually the one who argued that Yoda disarming Sidious is a matter of circumstance, not superior skill, while others claimed he outskilled him plain and square.

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to lowball Windu. I just evaluate him in a way that it fits with the rest of the material. And in this thread I hold neutral position. For me outcome of the fight between them is a toss up. I've seen plenty of statements like "he defeated Sidious only because of Vaapad" but and that he is below Yoda in normal circumstances. I argue that he defeated Sidious because of his exceptional skill and talents, not because of unfair advantage against darksiders and that he is on parr with Yoda in normal circumstances.

Windu and Anakin are both stated to be level 9 combatants by Nick Gillard.
Anakin has much larger Force reserves but he will waste them faster, if Windu will fight defensively like against Sidious.
Anakin has immense strength due to mechanical hand as well as superior power but Windu compensates it with his naturally stronger body due to species.
Anakin is very good at unarmed combat but so is Windu.
Anakin has incredible durability to the point that he can sustain even kick in the chin but Windu has got shatterpoint, so possibly he might find a weak spot after all.

The fight is really a toss up.

^The fight is a toss up. The video game ROTS even depicts a duel between Skywalker and Windu, with Skywalker as the victor.

Only thing in your post is that in the screenplay, Yoda does indeed defect Sidious' lighting with his saber.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
^The fight is a toss up. The video game ROTS even depicts a duel between Skywalker and Windu, with Skywalker as the victor.

Only thing in your post is that in the screenplay, Yoda does indeed defect Sidious' lighting with his saber.
Hmm, actually yes. When Sidious recovered with Force attack, Yoda started deflecting and it looked like Sidious is "doomed". Yoda still had lightsaber at that point. So it is another indication of Yoda's superior performance in Force contest. The only thing I don't get is why Yoda jumped onto lower platform.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
If Kenobi is an 8, how can he also be Anakin's equal? 8/=9.

They're equal when fighting each other. He said they can't get past each other's defenses.

As others have pointed out different combatants have different strengths and weaknesses and perform better against some opponents but worse against others who are on the same level.

So it's not always as simple as 9>8. Especially not with this quote Arhael has provided.

Originally posted by Arhael

This:
How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some gauge as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground.

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

- Nick Gillard, Homing Beacon #126

So it was actually all based on Lucas's levels. So much for all those who claimed we can't use those levels for debates. I guess they were just butt hurt that Dark Side Anakin, Mace, Sids and Yoda were all put on par.

As for the Vapaad using Opponents Darkness thing, I'm sure it was stated in Obi-Wan's account of TPM duel that Maul fed off Obi-Wan's rage. So it might just be a Dark Side thing to use all the Dark emotions around to feed them.

What Vapaad does is turn it all into a weapon of Light for a Jedi to use.

Originally posted by Arhael
The only thing I don't get is why Yoda jumped onto lower platform.

LOL No one gets that.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi


Mace WON... Yoda didn't. There is no amount of excuses or analogies or reasons that change that simple fact. You reasoning is even flawed.. citing that Yoda was able to deflect Sids lighting without a saber.. While Mace didn't. This fails firstly because there is zero evidence or narration that suggest Mace couldn't do that himself. Secondly, it fails because Mace DIDN'T GET DISARMED like Yoda did. Mace showed better combat prowess and awareness in not doing so. Sids shot Yoda saber from his hand.. He also shot at Mace and Mace MAINTAINED his saber. Mace actually DISARMED sids during saber combat.. Yoda made sids drop is saber to regain his footing. Plus the obvious fact, and one i stated, MACE WON.


You need to stop this "He Won", "He Lost" logic. Circumstances leading up to the fight(having help) count. Environment in which the fight takes place (Senate Chamber) make a big difference. Combatant reaching a rare and specific Uber state matter.

If you really want to go by the He Won, He Lost argument then Anakin beat The Son and Duaghter, meaning Mace doesn't have a chance in hell here.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, I pointed at it ones as well that Shatterpoint was useless exercise. But this distraction is not equal to Sidious'. Windu put his hardest into Vaapad and reached his best performance. Shatterpoint did not slow him down or decreased his performance in any way, which means that it was very subtle and not demanding exercise. Sidious on the other hand was rooting himself in place with TK. That's active "altering" Force power that not only redirected part of his effort and slowed him down, it, also, decreased his ability to move around effectively.


I judged by performance. Judging by win/lose is not always the best thing as it most often involves circumstances, especially, when characters have similar prowess. As example Kenobi won Anakin, yet, for the most fight it was Anakin demonstrating superior performance pressing advantage, while Kenobi barely surviving.

Windu won due to circumstances. Yoda didn't win due to circumstances. These are facts as well. Windu disarmed Sidious due to circumstances. Yet, Yoda disarmed Sidious due to circumstances too. In saber performance they are even. The difference is that Sidious started faking weakness ones disarmed, while against Yoda he immediately used Force attack. Outcome of the fight with Sidious saber fights was a toss up in which circumstances decided.

This:
How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some gauge as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground.

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

- Nick Gillard, Homing Beacon #126

All three Windu, Yoda and Sidious are level 9, that's why circumstances is main factor. But Kenobi is 8, while Anakin is 9 like Sidious. Yet, Kenobi won due to circumstances.


It actually specifically points that without lightsaber Windu is helpless:
"without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on"


Indeed. But that's another circumstance. Windu's race is specifically known for his strength, while Yoda's strength is on opposite smaller than usual. Thus, making it unsuitable for him to block lightning with saber. Equally Windu has no absorb ability, so blocking with saber is his best option. The actual demonstration of blocking lightning is what matters. Lightsaber deflects and absorbs lightning. Windu's job is to redirect lightning into saber as well as root himself in place. Yoda did all the same thing but on top of that he needed to absorb and redirect lightning himself, which is harder effort. Logically Windu is supposed to have less problem, especially with Vaapad. But instead Windu nearly gets his lightsaber into his face and shouts "He is too strong", while Yoda presses his hands forward with grim face and Sidious tips his head with painful expression until explosion splits them.


Well, both disarmed Sidious during actual combat due to a circumstance. Keep in mind that I was actually the one who argued that Yoda disarming Sidious is a matter of circumstance, not superior skill, while others claimed he outskilled him plain and square.

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to lowball Windu. I just evaluate him in a way that it fits with the rest of the material. And in this thread I hold neutral position. For me outcome of the fight between them is a toss up. I've seen plenty of statements like "he defeated Sidious only because of Vaapad" but and that he is below Yoda in normal circumstances. I argue that he defeated Sidious because of his exceptional skill and talents, not because of unfair advantage against darksiders and that he is on parr with Yoda in normal circumstances.

Windu and Anakin are both stated to be level 9 combatants by Nick Gillard.
Anakin has much larger Force reserves but he will waste them faster, if Windu will fight defensively like against Sidious.
Anakin has immense strength due to mechanical hand as well as superior power but Windu compensates it with his naturally stronger body due to species.
Anakin is very good at unarmed combat but so is Windu.
Anakin has incredible durability to the point that he can sustain even kick in the chin but Windu has got shatterpoint, so possibly he might find a weak spot after all.

The fight is really a toss up.

Talking about who was distracted more is an exercise in futility.. There is no way to know, and in the end, it's pointless.

I think you have it wrong though.. THE most important thing is winning or losing. Period. The constant thing cirucumstances. They always exist in every fight in star wars or real life or in a sporting event. There are always circumstances in every fight.. in the end.. the most important thing is who comes out on top despite whatever circumstances are present. I think you need to keep that point in mind.

Plus the example you used is a faulty one as well... Anakin WASN'T showing CLEAR superiority to Kenobi. As I've pointed out.. doing their TK battle... They stalemated.. So right there that doesn't show superiority. Further, Kenobi landed the HARDEST blow of the fight.. Flooring Anakin and then standing over him to try and kill him. Further, he showed superior skill and battlefield awareness by getting the higher ground and then baiting Anakin to make the jump. He showed superior mental fortitude and calmness during the fight. I could go on listing examples. Point is, Anakin DIDN'T show any clear superiority to Kenobi.

You keep going on and on about circumstances...You can't hide behind such a stance. That's like saying... Kapernick running for a 65 TD untouched was circumstancial because the safety was brought up by the fake to the left and out of position.. the corner was blocked (cirucumstance he could've been unblocked) the Line didn't go the right way.. I could go on and on.. there are circumstances EVER single football play or basketball play.. but SO WHAT.. that is a constant. What matters is the play.. what matters is the win. That is the ultimate goal.

Now, Windu's race is stronger and thus that is the cirucsstance why he was able to hold his saber.. :facepalm: with the repeated and illogical use of circumstances over and over again. Mace KNOWS of his strengths and weakness... he KEEP HIMSELF in a POSITION TO WIN and use his advantages. Yoda ALSO knows his... He didn't put himself in a position to nullify his weakness. He allowed his saber to be disarmed from him. Mace did not. Peirod. End of Story. Please stop making excuses for it. Mace showed superior battle prowess and awareness in his fight with Sids. Period. Yoda did dumb things throughout his fight... mace did not. To even suggest Yoda looked superior is well silly. My analogy was spot on... Yoda got a penatly kick victory.. Mace won his match 2-0. It's really that simple.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi


I think you have it wrong though.. THE most important thing is winning or losing. Period.


Ok fine KT.

In thats case:

Skywalker > Son and Daughter >>> Everyone else (including Mace).

Wow isn't it so simple when we judge solely on who beat who.




Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
As I've pointed out.. doing their TK battle... They stalemated.. So right there that doesn't show superiority.


I honestly think that was a force repulse thing. Same thing happened when Luminara and Ventress force pushed each other. I doubt it's because they're exactly equal in the Force. As I doubt Anakin and Obi-Wan also happen to be exactly equal in the Force.

Anakin actually has the superior Force feats.

Your first point made ZERO sense. Like Zero buddy

Your next point is PURE conjecture on your part.. We'll just go ahead and go with what we saw... Kenobi and Skywalker stalemating in the force.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Your first point made ZERO sense. Like Zero buddy


LOL What was so difficult to understand?

Skywalker overpowered 2 Force wielders. Force wielders are more powerful than any Jedi or Sith.

Therefore going by your "Winning is everything" theory:

Anakin >>> Mace.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Your next point is PURE conjecture on your part.. We'll just go ahead and go with what we saw... Kenobi and Skywalker stalemating in the force.

And yet Skywalker can handle Dooku's TK. Kenobi can not. Skywalker has shown he can Force Choke the likes of Ventress, Levitate a huge Temple Statue and collapse a huge underwater building with his TK. Kenobi's never shown any such TK feats.

Honestly if Kenobi showed Skywalkers TK feats, I would see nothing stopping him from being a level 9 duelist.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Honestly if Kenobi showed Skywalkers TK feats, I would see nothing stopping him from being a level 9 duelist.

Nick Gillard said that a Level 8 can easily go up to that level by embracing the Dark Side. So the difference is just about that extra power. But in terms of skill it seems like 8's are on par with 9's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL What was so difficult to understand?

Skywalker overpowered 2 Force wielders. Force wielders are more powerful than any Jedi or Sith.

Therefore going by your "Winning is everything" theory:

Anakin >>> Mace.



And yet Skywalker can handle Dooku's TK. Kenobi can not. Skywalker has shown he can Force Choke the likes of Ventress, Levitate a huge Temple Statue and collapse a huge underwater building with his TK. Kenobi's never shown any such TK feats.

That ABC logic is akin to saying Seattle scored that TD against Greenbay and thus won.. No.. we all saw that wasn't a TD.. the replay showed it wasn't a TD... They got the call wrong.. That is a win.. with a * i.e. not relevant or correct. That is about what ur analogy compares to

Still waiting on that narration stating what you're saying it is. We both know it doesn't exist so we'll just go ahead and call your theory conjecture at best. Besides, as you already admitted in anotehr thread Kenobi's TK defense is below that of Anakin's to which I agreed. You then admitted their offensive TK is likely a stalemate. I see you're swiitching your stance based on a conjecture with no proof. Bad bad DP

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You need to stop this "He Won", "He Lost" logic. Circumstances leading up to the fight(having help) count. Environment in which the fight takes place (Senate Chamber) make a big difference. Combatant reaching a rare and specific Uber state matter.

If you really want to go by the He Won, He Lost argument then Anakin beat The Son and Duaghter, meaning Mace doesn't have a chance in hell here.


Correct, there's a reason Sidious retreated to the Grand Convocation Chamber, he knew that ass would have been kicked in that office.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That ABC logic is akin to saying Seattle scored that TD against Greenbay and thus won.. No.. we all saw that wasn't a TD.. the replay showed it wasn't a TD... They got the call wrong.. That is a win.. with a * i.e. not relevant or correct. That is about what ur analogy compares to


What the heck is this?

And how does it apply to Skywalker overpowering the Force Wielders?

Originally posted by Galan007
If Mace were facing a light sided user of the force, then he wouldn't really be utilizing Vaapad, he'd be using Juyo-- ie. he'd only be able to channel his own darkness against his opponent.

It would still be Vaapad not Juyo.

Originally posted by Galan007
However, even without being able to channel an opponent's darkness, Mace was still nearly on par with Yoda.


Where does this come from?

By the way.. how does Yoda get to level 9.. if level 9 is achieved by giving into the darkside some?

Originally posted by ares834

Where does this come from?
"Perhaps only Master Mace Windu equaled him in skill and reputation - though Master Windu argued that he was still but a Padawan compaed to Master Yoda.
...
Mace Windu was considered his equal in terms of ability, insight and command.
...
In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.
" - The power of the Jedi sourcebook.


If I am not wrong it was refering to how Anain reached 9. He was 8 and turning to darkside gave him level up. To reach 9 as lightsider he would need more time.

Originally posted by Arhael
"Perhaps only Master Mace Windu equaled him in skill and reputation - though Master Windu argued that he was still but a Padawan compaed to Master Yoda.
...
Mace Windu was considered his equal in terms of ability, insight and command.
...
In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.
" - The power of the Jedi sourcebook.


None of those put him on par with Yoda. The first two are both ambiguously worded with "perhaps" and "considered" and the second one not only clearly puts him below Yoda but Dooku as well (at least within the time frame).

Originally posted by ares834
It would still be Vaapad not Juyo. It is only when a Vaapad user faces an opponent whom possesses inner darkness that its bonus affect(ie. combining the opponent's inner darkness with their own) is applicable. However, when facing an opponent that is pure of heart, there is really nothing of substance that differentiates Vaapad from Juyo. That's likely why Vaapad is classified under Form VII/Juyo in pretty much any source I've ever seen. /shrug

Originally posted by ares834
Where does this come from?
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15340289/1.jpg.html
Per the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, only two opponents ever overcame Mace in battle-- Yoda and Dooku. Therefore, once Dooku left the Jedi(the same year TPM took place), Mace became the second best swordsman in the Order-- and given Mace's skillset, I do not believe that it is a flawed line of logic to assume he could give Yoda one hell of a fight, before ultimately losing to him(hence why I said: "nearly on par with..."

Originally posted by ares834
None of those put him on par with Yoda. I said Mace was NEARLY on par with Yoda, fyi.

That was in response to Arhael, Galan, not you.

They are both addressing a comment I made-- I'm guessing ares didn't see the "nearly" in my original post.

Anywho, that's why I responded.

Your response was queer.