Why formal scientific method is not necessarily suited to religion

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bluewaterrider
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAPqwOV8zn8
(6 min 40 sec)

Shakyamunison
Because religion often talks about things that science cannot, like how to live a better life. What is a better life to the scientific way of thinking?

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Because religion often talks about things that science cannot, like how to live a better life. What is a better life to the scientific way of thinking?
There are people who study the science of ethics and such. It's daring work that I don't really understand, and I hope them the best in their attempts to overcome the ought-is problem.

But I would say that you can find ways to live a better life without any religion. You cannot however build an airplane without science.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Omega Vision
There are people who study the science of ethics and such. It's daring work that I don't really understand, and I hope them the best in their attempts to overcome the ought-is problem.

But I would say that you can find ways to live a better life without any religion. You cannot however build an airplane without science.

To be honest, if you find a good way to live, that is religion. Everything else is just humans piling on.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
To be honest, if you find a good way to live, that is religion.
I don't think that's true at all. Religion requires rigor, worship, and established traditions to be religion.

Otherwise it's just vague "spirituality"

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't think that's true at all. Religion requires rigor, worship, and established traditions to be religion.

Otherwise it's just vague "spirituality"

No! You are wrong. You are not talking about religion. Religion is far more fundamental to human existence.

That is way I say atheists are religious.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Because religion often talks about things that science cannot, like how to live a better life. What is a better life to the scientific way of thinking?

What is a better life to the religious way of thinking? You're going to get a lot of answer.

You can, and must, use science to talk about how to live a better life. The question that science has no mechanism to answer is "What is the best way of living?" but right now nobody has an accepted answer to that.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No! You are wrong. You are not talking about religion. Religion is far more fundamental to human existence.

That is way I say atheists are religious.
How do you define religion?

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
To be honest, if you find a good way to live, that is religion. Everything else is just humans piling on.
Define "good way to live".
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No! You are wrong. You are not talking about religion. Religion is far more fundamental to human existence.
Not really.

Mindset
Science is for bitches.

22bo6CKJcJM

TheGodKiller
@blue: What in the phuck did I just watch?

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Mindset
Science is for bitches.
I'll sodomize you.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No! You are wrong. You are not talking about religion. Religion is far more fundamental to human existence.

That is way I say atheists are religious.

Whilst I get what you are saying, 'religion' is a term far too historically and culturally loaded to be useful as a broad term as you are using it there. If you use it that way, you'll just be completely misunderstood, which defies the point of language. You are talking here about having a philosophy.

Also, 'atheist' doesn't make sense there- 'atheist' is not a belief system in of itself, it is an attribute. An atheist may have absolutely no defined philosophy, no 'good way to live', at all. Plenty do, but you should probably define their system rather than their attribute- so you could say your idea applies to all humanists, for example.

753
Originally posted by Omega Vision
There are people who study the science of ethics and such. It's daring work that I don't really understand, and I hope them the best in their attempts to overcome the ought-is problem.

But I would say that you can find ways to live a better life without any religion. You cannot however build an airplane without science.

meh I take issue with calling ethics a science. I'd call it a branch of philosophy concerned with value judgements.

Since I hold a non-cognitivist, particularly emotivist, view of ethics I'd say judgements of value are subjective expressions of emotion and not descriptions of reality. Moral reality simply does not exist and as such, science, which is concerned with describing physical reality, can produce no ethical discourse. It can contribute nothing to finding the best (as in ethical) way to live.

on the other hand, metaethics, the study of how we make moral judgements of value, can be entirely scientific and examined by psychology, neurology, evolutionary biology, sociology, etc. but this is about describing how we claim things are right or wrong, not about producing such claims.

of course, the fact that religions concern themselves with morality is merely reflective of the social role played by religion. morality is inherent to human groups stemming from pre-moral emotions shared by social animals and religeous belief isnt necessary to moral reflections

753
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
To be honest, if you find a good way to live, that is religion. Everything else is just humans piling on. I get the point, but isnt religion necessarily defined by a cosmological vision?

Mindship
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAPqwOV8zn8 Ontological arguments...

facepalm2

...though understandably intriguing.

Regret
An LDS perspective:

Regret
And further:

Symmetric Chaos
What do you do if many independent rigorous tests say Mormonism is wrong and Hinduism is right? Are you ready to discard your religion based on that? Personally I don't believe people who say they're willing to put their faith on the line.

Regret
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What do you do if many independent rigorous tests say Mormonism is wrong and Hinduism is right? Are you ready to discard your religion based on that? Personally I don't believe people who say they're willing to put their faith on the line.

If they did so, yes, I might. However, there is also the fact that I just don't like the overall Hindu belief system. I don't plan on converting to Hinduism, it's unecessary, if I die and have lived my life well, I will return closer to Brahman anyway, according to my understanding.

I do believe that you should like the religion you belong to. I once told a preacher that came to my home that I didn't agree with the God that he described and that, given the description and if his beliefs were correct, I would feel morally obligated to stand against such an entity.

I like the LDS beliefs, they promote a lifestyle that results in happier home and family, they promise eternal family, LDS beliefs support and promote strong career choices and business practices for the individual. LDS beliefs hold that God is our Heavenly Father and that, as a father, his desires for his children are similar to my desires for my children. LDS beliefs hold that God's purpose is to bring about the eternal happiness of Man. LDS beliefs hold that He wants His children to grow and become like Him. Why would I give up all of that? I have yet to find a belief system that compares and also leaves the individual in an overall better state than without the religion.

I have studied the world religions. I have studied them as a student. I have studied them with an open mind and heart. I am LDS, how can I expect others not of my faith to do something that I myself am unwilling to do? I have done exactly what I would hope a person would do in the face of my beliefs. If they go through the process of truly studying(including the spiritual activities) the LDS faith and still find it to be lacking, who am I to argue?

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