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Vader's feats:

-Killed countless Jedi
-Brought down a cathedral with the Force
-Fought evenly with Galen Marek
-Was stated to be 80% of Darth Sidious's power
-Defeated an elder Obi-Wan Kenobi


Mace's feats:

-Was considered to be on par with Count Dooku and Yoda as a duelist
-Destroyed armies of droids with the Force
-Was stated to be the 2nd greatest PT Jedi
-Defeated Darth Sidious
-Stalemated Boba Fett

I'm voting Mace, basically because of his unfair Vaapad blitz lol.

Mace Windu takes this. OT Vader is overrated.

How so? I personally believe he is widely underrated.

In a force battle, Vader would dominate Mace.

Put a lightsaber in Mace's hand, however, and Vader gets trounced. Hard.

I think you underestimate Maces force powers. :/

Either Mace is able to resist Vader's Force powers and wins after difficult saber fights or Vader takes the better of him with his TK and strong lightsaber strikes.

Originally posted by Galan007
In a force battle, Vader would dominate Mace.

Put a lightsaber in Mace's hand, however, and Vader gets trounced. Hard.
^ Pretty much this.


Though Mace is no pushover in the Force....actually I agree with NewGuy01, Mace seems to be underrated in the Force.

Oh, and agreed on OT Vader, he's better than he is usually given credit.

Mace wins large majority. But Vader will take a minority by getting a Force Choke on him.

And no I'm not underestimating Mace's force abilities. But the fact is Vader has gotten even Starkiller in a force choke (yes he took him by surprise, but still it's frigging Starkiller).

And Vader vs Galen's final fight had them both reaching for each other's throats with the Force while locked in Saber combat. So that IS what Vader will be attempting to do to Mace while desperately defending himself in Lightsaber combat.

It will work at least 2/10 times. Maybe more.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I think you underestimate Maces force powers. :/ You misunderstand. I am not underestimating Mace, but rather, giving Vader the credit he deserves. He was, quite literally, a TK God.

During the novel Bounty Hunter Wars, Vader(who was near Coruscant) began force-choking Xizor(who was near Tatooine.) As you can see by this map of the Star Wars galaxy, the aforementioned planets are literally half a galaxy apart:
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/1-4_zpsad75a0f1.jpg
This means Vader was able to extend his reach with the force across tens of thousands of light years(at the very least), in an extremely precise/fine-tuned manner. Also note that it was stated during the same scene that Vader was immensely holding back his full power, as to not show the Emperor what he was truly capable of.

Mace is certainly powerful with the force... Just not that powerful.



If you're interested, I posted the actual quote from the novel in another thread some time ago:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12831206& amp;highlight=xizor+forumid%3A6+userid%3A98733#pos
t12831206

I think Vader's force abilities could give him an advantage over Windu, but his lack of mobility could be devastating against such an aggressive opponent. Speed might be the deciding factor here, especially if Windu's shatterpoint immediately picks up on Vader's weakness.

Vader takes it. Abetter force powers and his saber skills are seriously underestimated.

His saber skills are not underestimated, Windu's abilities have made him on par with Sidious with sabers. Obviously he would not get as much as a boost form fighting Anakin but Mace has the definite advantage in sabers.

What decides the battle is whether or not Mace has the force powers to contend with Vader. Seeing as Mace didn't go down easy to Sids I'd say Mace wins.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Mace Windu takes this. OT Vader is overrated.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
How so? I personally believe he is widely underrated. Because he's the main dude of the whole franchise.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
How so? I personally believe he is widely underrated.

Is that a joke? People try to rank him above ROTS Anakin in spite of it being stated by numerous canon sources that ROTS is peak Anakin, after that he just declines in power.

OT Vader is strong as shit, but I doubt he'll be able to parry 24 blows per second, not when the person dishing it out has Shatterpoint, and certainly not against the master of Form VII.

And Anakin could?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And Anakin could?

Short answer is yes.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And Anakin could?

Anakin in ROTS stomped Dooku in the zone. And Dooku is frequently compared to Windu. He has a good chance.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Is that a joke? People try to rank him above ROTS Anakin in spite of it being stated by numerous canon sources that ROTS is peak Anakin, after that he just declines in power.


O really. Give me a quote.

Originally posted by ares834
O really. Give me a quote. He shouldn't need to give you a quote. It should be obvious.

Originally posted by Vensai
Anakin in ROTS stomped Dooku in the zone. And Dooku is frequently compared to Windu. He has a good chance. Yeah in his prime, Dooku was better than ROTS Windu. But by ROTS Dooku is well past his prime.

Originally posted by mnat801
He shouldn't need to give you a quote. It should be obvious.


Obvious how?

Originally posted by mnat801
Yeah in his prime, Dooku was better than ROTS Windu. But by ROTS Dooku is well past his prime.

Source please. This says otherwise.

"Once a great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith, Dooku is a dark colossus bestriding the galaxy. Nemesis of the corrupt Republic, oriflamme of the principled Confederacy of Independent Systems, he is the very personification of shock and awe.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Obvious how?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Obvious how?

"I was looking for a kind of sword fighting, that was reminiscing of what was in the movies that we already done. But a more energized version of it, because we actually never seen a real jedi at work, we only seen old men, crippled half droid half man, and young boys that learn from these people. So to see a jedi fighting in the prime of the jedi, I wanted to be a much more energetic and faster version of it"- George Lucas.

From the Official Site:

Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.


From Lucas in the ESB Audio commentary:

He's lost a lot of power in the force,

^ He's actually talking about Vader as of ESB there. And if you think he's only talking about potential think again because he mentions potential right after saying,"He's lost a lot of power in the force and a lot of feasibility to surpass the Emperor.."

So we're going to assume Lucas just said the same thing twice in the same sentence he's obviously referring to both Power and Potential.

And then Lucas again from his Rolling Stones Interview:

Referring to what happened after his injuries:

"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

So many quotes suggesting he was likely less powerful as Vader. Whilst I've never seen anything which states or even suggests that Vader/Skywalker was in the prime of his power post-suit.

Not that I'm saying there's no way Suit Vader could take Pre-suit Vader in a fight. He of course has a decent chance with his far superior command of the Force. But I'd personally give ROTS Anakin the majority.

The first and third are arguably talking about potential. Anyway, when is the second one mentioned in the commentary? I need to hear the quote in context before making a judgement.

Originally posted by Zett
"I was looking for a kind of sword fighting, that was reminiscing of what was in the movies that we already done. But a more energized version of it, because we actually never seen a real jedi at work, we only seen old men, crippled half droid half man, and young boys that learn from these people. So to see a jedi fighting in the prime of the jedi, I wanted to be a much more energetic and faster version of it"- George Lucas.

Except old Kenobi's performance is irrelevnant in the discussion of Dooku's power because Dooku has a vastly superior command of the force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
From the Official Site:

Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.


From Lucas in the ESB Audio commentary:

He's lost a lot of power in the force,

^ He's actually talking about Vader as of ESB there. And if you think he's only talking about potential think again because he mentions potential right after saying,"He's lost a lot of power in the force and a lot of feasibility to surpass the Emperor.."

So we're going to assume Lucas just said the same thing twice in the same sentence he's obviously referring to both Power and Potential.

And then Lucas again from his Rolling Stones Interview:

Referring to what happened after his injuries:

"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

So many quotes suggesting he was likely less powerful as Vader. Whilst I've never seen anything which states or even suggests that Vader/Skywalker was in the prime of his power post-suit.

Not that I'm saying there's no way Suit Vader could take Pre-suit Vader in a fight. He of course has a decent chance with his far superior command of the Force. But I'd personally give ROTS Anakin the majority.

I agree, although I think Anakin has, speed, mobility, AND power to match OT Vader. The only thing he wouldn't have over him is TK, and even in that case I don't think it'll be that big of a gap if at all. Especially because canon sources seem to hint that his command of the force decreased post Mustafar.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The only thing he wouldn't have over him is TK, and even in that case I don't think it'll be that big of a gap if at all. Especially because canon sources seem to hint that his command of the force decreased post Mustafar.

Power in the Force decreasing means his connection to the Force. The Force aids all his abilities. Not just TK.

Vader clearly had far superior TK though (except when Anakin goes Mortis Uber). But overall power in the Force is not just about TK.

When Dooku witnesses Skywalker's tremendous power he didn't once use any TK.

Simple answer,Mace Windu...
why?
Vader isn't the only one who can use TK the way he does.
Mace Windu's Force Potenial is under rated...
While Vader is still over rated.

I gave examples in past threads.
As far as Force choke goes, is nothing to Force Crush...
Vader has weaknesses,Any technique of shatter point will sense this

And give Mace a small window of opportunity to defeat Vader.
If Vader is so superior in TK(which I seriously doubt it)

Can he use TK to lift and accelerate an object (vibro shield) to a certain speed,
hit its target and stop just within inches of the target's heart?
Hold up,let me answer that.....no.

Vader's TK is good but I wouldn't say superior.
The duel would go to Vader loosing and out of desperation,
using TK basicly physical Dun Moch throwing countless objects

while Mace deflecting these countless objects with either his light saber
or his TK....Folllowed up with an unpredictable swift decapitation...

"Sidious rebuilt Vader as a cyborg, and though his raw Force ability may have been diminished, his new dark armor made him all the more terrifying."-Official Star Wars Encyclopedia

http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/groups/sith/

"Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful."-Official Star Wars Encyclopedia.

Vader has his moments,but beating Mace in Sabers and with TK isn't one of them.
We won't see this duel or even read about it.
I know we'll debate this topic in 10 or 20 posts.

For his lack of mobility and other known and unknown weaknesses,
TK,Dun Moch,and his infamous saber throw compensates for his weaknesses.

Against Mace ,Dun Moch won't work (mental or physical)
Saber throw won't work Mace's Saber barrier and TK counters that.
Force choke? don't even try it..

Everybody's favorite Vader hype Superior TK,,,
Again you under estimate his Force Potenial in this area.
In my honest opinion after everything I read about Vader and Mace,

It won't be a factor because in my opinion this fight will be settled be light saber combat alone.
when Vader is about to loose then we'll see him use TK.
And when he does Mace will counter it with his own TK...through Vaapad.

Or Spoiler Alert !!! 501st Intervenes as usual...

Agreed,I'm not saying he's not Powerful.
His Armor gives him an edge over any opponent.
Intimidating, as well as terrifying.

Fighting Vader won't be easy, a welcomed challenge but not so quickly over with one strike or a
shatterpoint in the Force, or TK or Force choke.


Shien/Djem So vs Juyo/Vaapad this would be a great fight,a true test.
Vader's hatred of himself vs Mace's state of mind and superconducting loop.
which I personally feel is one of the many branches of tutaminis.
A personalized tutaminis that could be used as a boost or to diffuse harmful Force energy or channel it away completely.

Or with a thought into it Mace's personalized tutaminis (Super Conducting Loop)
can be described as a non harmful Force drain,
Mace could if he expanded on utilize this absorbed energy to heal wounds, manifest Force Powers or channel this absorbed energy away like he did in shatter point.

If Mace had the time to explore these possibilities it would have given him a better edge in battle.
In Shatter Point he channeled Vastor's power into him and let it flow back out of him.
I'll have a page number later.

Look very closely at the superconducting loop and tutaminis.

Draw

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Fighting Vader won't be easy, a welcomed challenge but not so quickly over with one strike or a
shatterpoint in the Force, or TK or Force choke.


Shien/Djem So vs Juyo/Vaapad this would be a great fight,a true test.
Vader's hatred of himself vs Mace's state of mind and superconducting loop.
which I personally feel is one of the many branches of tutaminis.
A personalized tutaminis that could be used as a boost or to diffuse harmful Force energy or channel it away completely.

Or with a thought into it Mace's personalized tutaminis (Super Conducting Loop)
can be described as a non harmful Force drain,
Mace could if he expanded on utilize this absorbed energy to heal wounds, manifest Force Powers or channel this absorbed energy away like he did in shatter point.

If Mace had the time to explore these possibilities it would have given him a better edge in battle.
In Shatter Point he channeled Vastor's power into him and let it flow back out of him.
I'll have a page number later.

Look very closely at the superconducting loop and tutaminis.

... Please don't make Vaapad any more hax than it is. It is not tutaminis. But Mace wins. Vader is not Dooku level like he used to be.

The difference between Tutaminis and Vaapad, is that the former allows its user to absorb/redirect the physical(ie. an opponent's blaster bolts), while the latter allows its user to absorb/redirect the metaphysical(ie. an opponent's inner darkness.) That is likely why Vaapad isn't blanketed under the Tutaminis umbrella.

Additionally, Mace, as far as we know, had fully mastered Vaapad-- to the point that he was able to completely immerse himself in it-- to the point that he no longer existed as an independent being while immersed in it: "Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being." - RotS

Yet he was still unable to absorb/redirect physical attacks(w/o his lightsaber, obviously)-- as made evident when he was tooled by Palpatine's lightning once it touched his person.

Originally posted by Vensai
I think Vader's force abilities could give him an advantage over Windu, but his lack of mobility could be devastating against such an aggressive opponent. Speed might be the deciding factor here, especially if Windu's shatterpoint immediately picks up on Vader's weakness.

Originally posted by mnat801
He shouldn't need to give you a quote. It should be obvious.
That's actually not obvious. Power decline does not equate to lightsaber skill decline.

"Last time we met, I was nothing but the learner and now I am the Master"

Vader implies that he improved since last encounter with Kenobi. Indeed, if he started similar rage onslaught, he would gas out pretty quickly. But Vader changed his style and now conserves his energy and relies on precision in controlled manner like Dooku.

Vader's mobility decreased, which as Djem So practitioner he did not rely on much anyway but as compensation his physical strength became much greater.

I'm not opposed to the notion that Vader improved as a duelist between RotS and ANH. While he still utilized Form V, he definitely changed his application of the style-- thus he clearly must have honed his saber skills to fit his new/bulky body at some point.

However, it was stated in SW Insider/Fightsaber that it had been "many years" since Vader or Kenobi had engaged in lightsaber combat. The article also went on to say that Vader was "crippled by the lingering pain of the injuries that made his life-support suit necessary." So take that for what it's worth. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not opposed to the notion that Vader improved as a duelist between RotS and ANH. While he still utilized Form V, he definitely changed his application of the style-- thus he clearly must have honed his saber skills to fit his new/bulky body at some point.

However, it was stated in SW Insider/Fightsaber that it had been "many years" since Vader or Kenobi had engaged in lightsaber combat. The article also went on to say that Vader was "crippled by the lingering pain of the injuries that made his life-support suit necessary." So take that for what it's worth. /shrug
Well, it hasn't been many years because a lot of new EU material was introduced since.

Also, necessity for life support does not equate to decreased combat prowess .

^ Okay, so what EU material suggests that it hadn't been many years since Vader engaged in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat? I know he perused/slaughtered Jedi across the galaxy after RotS-- but there was a 19 year hiatus between RotS and ANH. So unless there is EU material which has Vader engaging in saber/saber battles within a few years of ANH, then the article may still hold true.

"Crippled by the lingering pain" are the key words in that quote, btw. Either way, I'm not saying that Vader's combat prowess did decrease-- I merely posted a few quotes which allude to the notion.

There is. He engaged Galen Marek shortly before ANH.

It's pretty obvious in ANH that Vader was a greater warrior than before. But then Lucas changed his mind to compensate for shoddy '70s technology rather than just admit such things were limited then.

Was TFU immediately before ANH? If so, that settles that.


After a quick Google search, it seems that TFU took place roughly 2 years before ANH, and TFU II took place roughly 1 year before ANH. So yeah, the article quote is contradicted by gameplay, I suppose. Out of curiousity, which is more canon? Canonicity contradictions found in games always make me scratch my head.

Originally posted by Galan007
The difference between Tutaminis and Vaapad, is that the former allows its user to absorb/redirect the physical(ie. an opponent's blaster bolts), while the latter allows its user to absorb/redirect the metaphysical(ie. an opponent's inner darkness.) That is likely why Vaapad isn't blanketed under the Tutaminis umbrella.

Additionally, Mace, as far as we know, had fully mastered Vaapad-- to the point that he was able to completely immerse himself in it-- to the point that he no longer existed as an independent being while immersed in it: "Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being." - RotS

Yet he was still unable to absorb/redirect physical attacks(w/o his lightsaber, obviously)-- as made evident when he was tooled by Palpatine's lightning once it touched his person.


I'm not saying Vaapad is Tutaminus, I'm saying that Mace might have gottten the idea of the (Super Conducting Loop) from Tutaminus. Both absorbs/redirect the physical.
Vaapad is not Tutaminus, but Tutaminus, like techniques are in it whether we agree or not.

You made a good point,but you misunderstood what I'm trying to say.
Alright,for the record it's not Tutaminus, I was only talking about the SCL part.
I was thinking that maybe the SCL would be an advanced yet personal technique

that might not have been officially classified as a advanced technique under
Tutaminus's umbrella.

Now your tooled part.
Anakin tipped the balance.
By cutting off his Weapon Hand.

If Anakin hadn't interfered then Sidious /Palpatine would be dead w/ or w/o Anakin's help.

Originally posted by Vensai
... Please don't make Vaapad any more hax than it is. It is not tutaminis. But Mace wins. Vader is not Dooku level like he used to be.

I promise you I won't make it a hax.
but When Mace is in a confrontation with anybody,
Vaapad is the only LSC Style he will use against them.

I know Vaapad isn't,but Super Conducting Loop?
that's the technique of Vaapad that might be related to Tutaminus.

Like I said in past posts. We haven't seen the Full Power of Vaapad yet....
I'm starting to believe that we'll never see it.

Thank you for your replies and commits.

Originally posted by Galan007
Was TFU immediately before ANH? If so, that settles that.


After a quick Google search, it seems that TFU took place roughly 2 years before ANH, and TFU II took place roughly 1 year before ANH. So yeah, the article quote is contradicted by gameplay, I suppose. Out of curiousity, which is more canon? Canonicity contradictions found in games always make me scratch my head.

Good question.
And thank you for your thoughts and commits.

I was wondering about the TFU,will we see what happens to a badly injured and captured Vader w/Boba Fett in Hot Pursuit to (spoiler alert) rescue the dark lord?