Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Vader invades Nosgoth and Kain meets him head on. Who wins here ?

Does the EU count?

I see films, so probably not. Vader might be able to manage, depending on if he can manipulate the Force from Nosgoth.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Does the EU count? No, I have no knowledge about the eu.

URM.. does Vader do anything on the level of EU feats? If not Im going to say.. Kain 6/10.

Both have equal leveled TK. Vadar's faster, Kain's stronger. Vader has the better cutting weapon, Kain has some extra spells up his sleeve and it might be those spells that with some range that give him the edge.

Originally posted by XanatosForever
I see films, so probably not. Vader might be able to manage, depending on if he can manipulate the Force from Nosgoth. Banning the force would be bullshit. haermm

In a sword fight Vader wins due to precog and superior combat speed and skill, and his TK is still probably stronger, but Kain has other powers that can close the gap.

It's a toss up.

What has Vader's TK done?

Originally posted by BloodRain
What has Vader's TK done? Choked out worthless victims or stalemated Obi his obvious inferior's tk.

Originally posted by BloodRain
What has Vader's TK done? IIRC he has TK feats in the prequel trilogy.

So pretty featless.. and not on the level of Starkiller bringing down a km long starship? TK's moot then. mmm


As precog > teleporting, this is a highly skilled super-cutting Lightsaber user with precog vs Mist form and time-slow powers.

Precog and speed might overpower his level of time control.. may change my opinion to Vader 6/10.

Originally posted by BloodRain
So pretty featless.. and not on the level of Starkiller bringing down a km long starship? TK's moot then. mmm


As precog > teleporting, this is a highly skilled super-cutting Lightsaber user with precog vs Mist form and time-slow powers.

Precog and speed might overpower his level of time control.. may change my opinion to Vader 6/10. What from the movies has so impressed you about precog ? Seriously, I hear this all the time. Explain.

Originally posted by BloodRain
So pretty featless.. and not on the level of Starkiller bringing down a km long starship? TK's moot then. mmm


As precog > teleporting, this is a highly skilled super-cutting Lightsaber user with precog vs Mist form and time-slow powers.

Precog and speed might overpower his level of time control.. may change my opinion to Vader 6/10. Not moot, really. Raziel could manipulate Kain with his TK and throw him around. Anakin could toss around waves or droids and debris.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Not moot, really. Raziel could manipulate Kain with his TK and throw him around. Anakin could toss around waves or droids and debris. Anakin can also be moved by tk.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What from the movies has so impressed you about precog ? Seriously, I hear this all the time. Explain.
/shrugs/

Im just going on the train of thought that if he has any kind of precog that can tell him of an incoming attack/danger, he will be able to defend himself from a teleoporting or time slow-attack.Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Not moot, really. Raziel could manipulate Kain with his TK and throw him around. Anakin could toss around waves or droids and debris.
Raziel can TK push/slide those rock cubes around. Near enough equal to that Anakin one.

Originally posted by BloodRain
/shrugs/

Im just going on the train of thought that if he has any kind of precog that can tell him of an incoming attack/danger, he will be able to defend himself from a teleoporting or time slow-attack.
Raziel can TK push/slide those rock cubes around. Near enough equal to that Anakin one. We see Vader jump into Obi wan's path despite Obi begging with him not to do it. Vader is impulsive and an emotional wreck. Even when his opponent tells him not to he still does it and loses anyway.

Are we using PT Vader/Anakin here, or OT?

Originally posted by XanatosForever
Are we using PT Vader/Anakin here, or OT? Revenge of the Sith pre suit Vader.

Can't say Vader and not want us not to think the black-suited asthmatic variety.

However in that moment his head was pretty wrecked because of the wife or.. something. Im sure if he was in his right state of mind he wouldn't back-flip into lava.

Yeah. He thought his wife had betrayed him to the Jedi Order because Obi-Wan snuck aboard her ship. And then he choked her to death. He was also dealing with the fact that Mace Windu was dead because of him, and dozens of younglings and other Jedi at the temple. He was phucked in the head during that fight.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Can't say Vader and not want us not to think the black-suited asthmatic variety.

However in that moment his head was pretty wrecked because of the wife or.. something. Im sure if he was in his right state of mind he wouldn't back-flip into lava. Yes, you can since he was darth vader pre suit. He was more formidable without the suit as opposed to with it.

Vader's whole deal was he was an emotional lunatic. The guy ended up betraying the Emperor in the end. Guy turned on everyone because he was mentally as weak as they come.

What? He turned on Palpatine because he was torturing and killing his son, and it took that for him to realize how wrong he'd been and to redeem himself in the eyes of the Force. And in killing Palpatine, he brought balance to the Force(for a time at least), like he'd been prophesied as doing by Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by KingD19
What? He turned on Palpatine because he was torturing and killing his son, and it took that for him to realize how wrong he'd been and to redeem himself in the eyes of the Force. And in killing Palpatine, he brought balance to the Force(for a time at least), like he'd been prophesied as doing by Qui-Gon. It took him long enough. it just shows how weak he is to let someone do that to your own son. Anakin is one of the biggest weaklings in terms of mental fortitude I have ever seen.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It took him long enough. it just shows how weak he is to let someone do that to your own son. Anakin is one of the biggest weaklings in terms of mental fortitude I have ever seen.

Let's see. He grew up a slave with no father, as Schmi had the "Mary/God" treatment and was artificially insiminated through the Force.

He was treated like crap by his owner up until he was about 10.

He became a bet more or less, and when he won the pod racing tournament despite Sebulba trying to murder him, he was torn away from his mother(still age 10) and force into Jedi training. Leaving his mother behind on Tattooine.

Pretty much every Jedi aside from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had no faith in him starting out, and didn't make life too easy as he got older. Despite knowing that he wasn't a typical student, and was much more prone to his emotions since he started his training far later.

He goes back to Tattooine, finds his mother has been kidnapped, and is held as a slave by Sand People. Probably raped, and beaten to the point that the only thing keeping her alive is that she wants to see her son one last time. As soon as she sees him, she kicks the bucket. I'd kill the guys who killed my mom too. Not the kids, but Anakin's been through more than I have.

The whole while he's in a relationship with Padme, which makes things even more complicated as Anakin's mentor was all about the Living Force, and was a radical in the Order at the time. He wasn't properly trained to control his emotions.

Then he gets embarrassed a few times, loses his arm, and gets close to one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, who is so manipulative he has the entire galaxy dancing on a string. No Jedi could sense Sidious. No one even really questioned the Clone Army. He manipulated Anakin for years, toying on his already phucked up life and emotional state.

He wasn't mentally weak. He got shit pretty much his entire life, and one of the most brilliant and evil minds of the time simply took advantage of that using his massive powers and resources to do so.

I can still never get over the Jedi treatment of Anakin. It was hilariously stupid.

Originally posted by KingD19
Let's see. He grew up a slave with no father, as Schmi had the "Mary/God" treatment and was artificially insiminated through the Force.

He was treated like crap by his owner up until he was about 10.

He became a bet more or less, and when he won the pod racing tournament despite Sebulba trying to murder him, he was torn away from his mother(still age 10) and force into Jedi training. Leaving his mother behind on Tattooine.

Pretty much every Jedi aside from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had no faith in him starting out, and didn't make life too easy as he got older. Despite knowing that he wasn't a typical student, and was much more prone to his emotions since he started his training far later.

He goes back to Tattooine, finds his mother has been kidnapped, and is held as a slave by Sand People. Probably raped, and beaten to the point that the only thing keeping her alive is that she wants to see her son one last time. As soon as she sees him, she kicks the bucket. I'd kill the guys who killed my mom too. Not the kids, but Anakin's been through more than I have.

The whole while he's in a relationship with Padme, which makes things even more complicated as Anakin's mentor was all about the Living Force, and was a radical in the Order at the time. He wasn't properly trained to control his emotions.

Then he gets embarrassed a few times, loses his arm, and gets close to one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, who is so manipulative he has the entire galaxy dancing on a string. No Jedi could sense Sidious. No one even really questioned the Clone Army. He manipulated Anakin for years, toying on his already phucked up life and emotional state.

He wasn't mentally weak. He got shit pretty much his entire life, and one of the most brilliant and evil minds of the time simply took advantage of that using his massive powers and resources to do so.

Wow. Nice post. I hadn't realised the extent of what he had been thru. He was also in countless life/death situations and battles. Talk about PTSD

Originally posted by KingD19
Let's see. He grew up a slave with no father, as Schmi had the "Mary/God" treatment and was artificially insiminated through the Force.

He was treated like crap by his owner up until he was about 10.

He became a bet more or less, and when he won the pod racing tournament despite Sebulba trying to murder him, he was torn away from his mother(still age 10) and force into Jedi training. Leaving his mother behind on Tattooine.

Pretty much every Jedi aside from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had no faith in him starting out, and didn't make life too easy as he got older. Despite knowing that he wasn't a typical student, and was much more prone to his emotions since he started his training far later.

He goes back to Tattooine, finds his mother has been kidnapped, and is held as a slave by Sand People. Probably raped, and beaten to the point that the only thing keeping her alive is that she wants to see her son one last time. As soon as she sees him, she kicks the bucket. I'd kill the guys who killed my mom too. Not the kids, but Anakin's been through more than I have.

The whole while he's in a relationship with Padme, which makes things even more complicated as Anakin's mentor was all about the Living Force, and was a radical in the Order at the time. He wasn't properly trained to control his emotions.

Then he gets embarrassed a few times, loses his arm, and gets close to one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, who is so manipulative he has the entire galaxy dancing on a string. No Jedi could sense Sidious. No one even really questioned the Clone Army. He manipulated Anakin for years, toying on his already phucked up life and emotional state.

He wasn't mentally weak. He got shit pretty much his entire life, and one of the most brilliant and evil minds of the time simply took advantage of that using his massive powers and resources to do so. Long story short. Life sucks; deal with it. Did he get a fair shake ? No, but he has to be held accountable for his actions. You act like you're his mother. The guy was a crybaby and ended up hurting his own wife. Even if she was cheating on him with Obi you don't practically kill her. He's a woman. You also don't butcher children. The guy was a real headcase. To make matters worse years later he lets his master torture his son.

Kain is mentally balls to the wall. Vader is someone who can't even deal with his own emotions. Kain beaks his mind and his body.

He didn't think she was cheating on him. He thought she'd betrayed him to the Jedi after he felt the Jedi had been betraying him constantly as time went on. It's like if a Jew ran away, his wife followed him, and she had a nazi with her. That's how he felt.

Obviously you just attack people you don't like, including characters. But I'm not arguing for Anakin/Vader to win, just that he's not what you make him out to be.

Kain wins imo, but it depends on which game you mean, or is he a combination of all the games?

Originally posted by KingD19
He didn't think she was cheating on him. He thought she'd betrayed him to the Jedi after he felt the Jedi had been betraying him constantly as time went on. It's like if a Jew ran away, his wife followed him, and she had a nazi with her. That's how he felt.

Obviously you just attack people you don't like, including characters. But I'm not arguing for Anakin/Vader to win, just that he's not what you make him out to be.

Kain wins imo, but it depends on which game you mean, or is he a combination of all the games? It doesn't matter. Betrayal in the bedroom can feel just as nasty. The fact he attacked the woman he supposedly did this for showed how mentally fragile he is.

He's weak. Palpatine goads him a few times and he executes Dooku. Vader was ten times cooler pre prequels.

Kain as in the last one; Defiance.

Vader is weak. I call it how I see it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Long story short. Life sucks; deal with it. Did he get a fair shake ? No, but he has to be held accountable for his actions. You act like you're his mother. The guy was a crybaby and ended up hurting his own wife. Even if she was cheating on him with Obi you don't practically kill her. He's a woman. You also don't butcher children. The guy was a real headcase. To make matters worse years later he lets his master torture his son.

Kain is mentally balls to the wall. Vader is someone who can't even deal with his own emotions. Kain beaks his mind and his body.

Except that this kind of story is exactly what makes books and trilogies etc. The issues that Anakin faced along with the expectations coupled with everyone expecting him to fail, would have left anyone ****ed in the head, Rand Al'thor from Wheel of Time is one example, Twilight Reign another. Also the guy went to the dark side killing Women and Children isn't really something they consider a issue. And he didn't let his Master torture his son, he killed his master. In that regards it isn't like Kain is any better, he ripped the wings of Raziel, and threw him into a pit where his body was desolved in acid, I know you will bring the whole "It was to give him free will" but still he did that to his own "son". So don't come here with "he let his master torture him and Kain is so much a better father and hero"

Despite what he knew, Kain was still jealous that Raziel evolved before him.

Talking about Vader being weak willed.

Has Achilles from Troy as signature and avatar.

Not gonna lie, I lol'd.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Except that this kind of story is exactly what makes books and trilogies etc. The issues that Anakin faced along with the expectations coupled with everyone expecting him to fail, would have left anyone ****ed in the head, Rand Al'thor from Wheel of Time is one example, Twilight Reign another. Also the guy went to the dark side killing Women and Children isn't really something they consider a issue. And he didn't let his Master torture his son, he killed his master. In that regards it isn't like Kain is any better, he ripped the wings of Raziel, and threw him into a pit where his body was desolved in acid, I know you will bring the whole "It was to give him free will" but still he did that to his own "son". So don't come here with "he let his master torture him and Kain is so much a better father and hero" He killed his master after he tortured him and was going to kill him. You saying he didn't sit by and let him torture him is a boldfaced lie. You can name as many weak characters as you want that doesn't change the fact Anakin is mentally fragile.

Kain did so for a purpose. Kain chose his own actions as opposed to Palpatine controlling him like a puppet for years.

Raziel is Kain's right hand, his sword. Kain made his destiny while Anakin was just Palp's ***** up until the end when he turned on him as well..

Originally posted by quanchi112
He killed his master after he tortured him and was going to kill him. You saying he didn't sit by and let him torture him is a boldfaced lie. You can name as many weak characters as you want that doesn't change the fact Anakin is mentally fragile.

Kain did so for a purpose. Kain chose his own actions as opposed to Palpatine controlling him like a puppet for years.

Raziel is Kain's right hand, his sword. Kain made his destiny while Anakin was just Palp's ***** up until the end when he turned on him as well..

No trying to imply that Vader stood by the entire time, is a lie, Palpatine tortured Luke and for that Vader destroyed his master. It's clarified in one of the extended cuts by C3PO "But Vader couldn't bear to watch his own son suffer, he rose up and destroyed the emperor" And mentally fragile has exactly what impact on this fight? Kain has no knowledge of Anakin's history so please do tell why you see it as relevant.

Still doesn't change a thing. Kain comdemned a entire world to darkness, mutilated his son and nearly lost all in the proces. Hence we call Kain a anti hero.

Oh I guess that was why Raziel went against Kain's wish and desires on multiple occasions, and only in the end realised that he had to die, had Raziel not had that battered into his skull the Elder God would have won, and Kain couldn't have done a damm thing about it, what Raziel did in the end is no different from what Vader did. They sacrificed their lives to archive something greater.

Originally posted by Utrigita
No trying to imply that Vader stood by the entire time, is a lie, Palpatine tortured Luke and for that Vader destroyed his master. It's clarified in one of the extended cuts by C3PO "But Vader couldn't bear to watch his own son suffer, he rose up and destroyed the emperor" And mentally fragile has exactly what impact on this fight? Kain has no knowledge of Anakin's history so please do tell why you see it as relevant.

Still doesn't change a thing. Kain comdemned a entire world to darkness, mutilated his son and nearly lost all in the proces. Hence we call Kain a anti hero.

Oh I guess that was why Raziel went against Kain's wish and desires on multiple occasions, and only in the end realised that he had to die, had Raziel not had that battered into his skull the Elder God would have won, and Kain couldn't have done a damm thing about it, what Raziel did in the end is no different from what Vader did. They sacrificed their lives to archive something greater. I didn't say he stood by the entire time as he betrayed Palpatine in the end. he did stand by while he tortured Luke and only at the end did he decide to save his son's life. He still subjected his own son to be tortured by Palpatine. Fragile vader.

Kain doesn't have to know his history it's obvious just by his very nature especially pre suit.


Kain had to to stop the vicious cycle of the elder god.

Kain saved the entire world whereas vader saved his own son after Palpatine tortured him. Huge diff. Raziel tried to kill Kain but ripping his heart out did no such thing Raziel in the end realized Kain was right. vader just acted out of instinct he didn't have a plan like Kain. Vader's a schmuck.

Vader let him torture him briefly to try and turn him to the Dark Side. Once he realize it wouldn't work and Sidious would rather have Luke dead than against him, he killed him.

Also, Kain saved a world, big whoop. And he had help from a device that let him travel through time and all that crap. Anakin's singular action of killing Palpatine and letting Luke live saved the galaxy several times over.

If Luke had died, they wouldn't have been able to push back the Vong, or Abeloth, or any of the other threats to existence that Luke was integral in stopping.

Originally posted by KingD19
Vader let him torture him briefly to try and turn him to the Dark Side. Once he realize it wouldn't work and Sidious would rather have Luke dead than against him, he killed him.

Also, Kain saved a world, big whoop. And he had help from a device that let him travel through time and all that crap. Anakin's singular action of killing Palpatine and letting Luke live saved the galaxy several times over.

If Luke had died, they wouldn't have been able to push back the Vong, or Abeloth, or any of the other threats to existence that Luke was integral in stopping. No, not immediately only after his son pleaded for his aid and after he watched it for at least 30 seconds.

Kain outplayed his foes unlike Anakin who was just put into a situation in which he suddenly jumped ship. The guy did it before to Windu. Mentally weak, whackjob. Anakin also saved his son and waited until his master wasn't ready for it. Cowardly.

Vader didn't plan on turning on his master he just did so in the heat of the moment.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I didn't say he stood by the entire time as he betrayed Palpatine in the end. he did stand by while he tortured Luke and only at the end did he decide to save his son's life. He still subjected his own son to be tortured by Palpatine. Fragile vader.

Kain doesn't have to know his history it's obvious just by his very nature especially pre suit.


Kain had to to stop the vicious cycle of the elder god.

Kain saved the entire world whereas vader saved his own son after Palpatine tortured him. Huge diff. Raziel tried to kill Kain but ripping his heart out did no such thing Raziel in the end realized Kain was right. vader just acted out of instinct he didn't have a plan like Kain. Vader's a schmuck.

Oh you mean just like Kain ripped of Raziels wings, and threw him into a pit of water that burned him with Acid? Kain stood by as well.

Please do tell why Vader story is relevant, and how Kain can see and utilize it. You obviously think he can and that it have a bearing on this fight by all means enlighten me as to why.

Just like Vader had to see his son suffer in order to make the decision to give up his life to save his son and purify the force.

Kain began by Condemming Nosgoth to darkness in the hopes that he could find some way not to die. Kain was as afraid of death as anyone, else he would have given his life at the pillars cleansing them but he didn't instead he choosed to rule Nosgoth for 200 years. But I guess that was a good move... Vader saved his son, purified the force and ultimately helped save the Galaxy from his master. Raziel until the second he realised he had to give his life, fought Kain at every turn, it wasn't like Kain masterminded every step of the way, for instance Kain didn't want Janus to be resurrected but he still was, because Raziel defied him, and so the list goes on. Vader had a plan for multiple years, and that plan was to topple Palpatine, it didn't work the way Vader had imagined but to say that Vader didn't have a plan is wrong.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Oh you mean just like Kain ripped of Raziels wings, and threw him into a pit of water that burned him with Acid? Kain stood by as well.

Please do tell why Vader story is relevant, and how Kain can see and utilize it. You obviously think he can and that it have a bearing on this fight by all means enlighten me as to why.

Just like Vader had to see his son suffer in order to make the decision to give up his life to save his son and purify the force.

Kain began by Condemming Nosgoth to darkness in the hopes that he could find some way not to die. Kain was as afraid of death as anyone, else he would have given his life at the pillars cleansing them but he didn't instead he choosed to rule Nosgoth for 200 years. But I guess that was a good move... Vader saved his son, purified the force and ultimately helped save the Galaxy from his master. Raziel until the second he realised he had to give his life, fought Kain at every turn, it wasn't like Kain masterminded every step of the way, for instance Kain didn't want Janus to be resurrected but he still was, because Raziel defied him, and so the list goes on. Vader had a plan for multiple years, and that plan was to topple Palpatine, it didn't work the way Vader had imagined but to say that Vader didn't have a plan is wrong. Kain did so to save the land. Kain chose his own actions he didn't live off the *** of some fragile old man with a hunchback.

It's relevant due to his outbursts and sloppy fighting. He was an emo kid in ROS. He was still quite formidable but his emotions were running wild. This will be obvious to seasoned fighters in a battle that he isn't in complete control of his emotions.

Vader made the choice only in the moment. He had no plan like Kain. Kain always plotted a manner in which to carve out his destiny while Vader did the bidding of others up until the end.

Kain's destiny is to save Nosgoth not eradicate the vampires. That's what the elder god wants that isn't good for the land. It is just good for the elder god. Vader betrayed his master with his back turned. Vader betrayed him like he betrayed Windu in the midst of a few seconds he changed his mind. Mentally as weak as they come.

Kain didn't control all the pieces of the board but despite their actions he still achieved his destiny. Raziel eventually found out Kain was indeed right this entire time. Kain had a plan whereas Vader just betrayed people in the heat of the moment. He even turned on his wife.

Anakin was only emotionally vulnerable on Mustafar toward the very end. And the only bad choice he made was trying to jump at Obi-Wan when he had the high ground. Normally that wouldn't have been so bad and the fight probably would have continued because Anakin is one of the most skilled saber duelists in the temple at that time. And he's profficient in at least 2-3 styles while most people favor one. But the one that Obi-Wan favored was Soresu, the most defensive form ever created, and he was the undisputed master of it.

Originally posted by KingD19
Anakin was only emotionally vulnerable on Mustafar toward the very end. And the only bad choice he made was trying to jump at Obi-Wan when he had the high ground. Normally that wouldn't have been so bad and the fight probably would have continued because Anakin is one of the most skilled saber duelists in the temple at that time. And he's profficient in at least 2-3 styles while most people favor one. But the one that Obi-Wan favored was Soresu, the most defensive form ever created, and he was the undisputed master of it. He was unstable during the entire movie but at the end was basically on another level of terrible. Anakin had long enough to beat Obi. Obi fought him to a stalemate and warned him that he shouldn't jump. He did so anyways and suffered the consequences.

Anakin couldn't be Obi-Wan because he couldn't get past his defenses. But when he drew on his anger instead of being consumed by it, he easily overwhelmed Dooku, who was capable of dueling evenly with Yoda and took on both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time and schooled them.

He won't be fighting like he did on Mustafar.

Originally posted by KingD19
Anakin couldn't be Obi-Wan because he couldn't get past his defenses. But when he drew on his anger instead of being consumed by it, he easily overwhelmed Dooku, who was capable of dueling evenly with Yoda and took on both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time and schooled them.

He won't be fighting like he did on Mustafar. Abc logic. I think Obi is a better matchup for Anakin that Dooku is against him. Dooku has Obi's number though. Really the prequelsl have trashed Vader's credibility. The guy lost to Dooku twice in one fight and his life was saved. Obi spared his life and could have easily killed him as well. Luke stops fighting him after we see he's obviously superior to him as well. Vader has more lives than a cat but in terms of a badass his mystique is all but gone completely.