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but this is a SABERS ONLY fight. Who wins?

Team, imo.

Dooku.

The guy was a peer of Yoda in terms of saber-play, and Yoda would smoke this team in a duel, imho.

Dooku can down Fisto pretty quickly, then take down Kenobi after a long battle.

I view Dooku as not far from Sidious in raw sabers. And we all saw how Kit lasts against people of Sidious' calibre.

Dooku superkicks Kenobi away, then dominates Fisto.

Dooku

My problem with comparing Dooku to Sids and how Sids did against Fisto.. is that Sids did that with blinding speed. I've never seen Dooku mentioned with that kinda speed. Thus, I don't think Dooku could dispose of Fisto THAT quickly.

Then, I fee like Kenobi can beat Dooku in Sabers. NOt all the time and maybe not even for a majority. But I do think a majority or some wins is possible. We must remmber, that Kenobi beat Anakin in a sabers fight.. who beat Dooku. Kenobi since becoming a Soresu master has never been bested by Dooku in a sabers portion of a fight. He's always gained an edge with his force powers. Which per the OP, isn't allowed here. So, I certainly believe an in his prime Kenobi can outlast a little past his prime Dooku in a sabers only fight. Afterall, that is what Kenobi does...

I like to think that, the novel notwithstanding, Sidious's blitz of Fisto and crew was a circumstantial element.

While Jedi and Sith do move at Olympic speed, Arhael has made a convincing argument that they don't move at truly superhuman speeds all the time. We see plenty of cases in the films and TV series where gifted but "mundane" fighters hold their own against powerful adepts.

It was probably a burst of speed a la Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in TPM versus the droidekas.

To assume that Kenobi can beat Dooku in sabers, is to assume that Kenobi can beat Yoda in sabers(yes, Dooku and Yoda are peers in that regard.)

Frankly, I can't follow that line of logic. In my opinion, Yoda/Sidious/Dooku/Mace are simply in a tier of their own.

This is where that line of thinking fails though... Dooku, has NEVER proven to be Kenobi's superior in just Sabers. In the movies and in the TCW's.. He's always gained an Advantage via the force. Not by superior blade work. So, actually it's not a matter of assuming.. it's a fact seen over and over again. You have it the other way my friend.. you're assuming something not in evidence.

We're talking about someone who was able to defeat Anakin in a sabers only fight.. by what.. outlasting him and outmanuevering him. That is exactly what his stlyle does. This mind you, was by canon sources a more powerful Anakin since turning to the DS than the one that beat Dooku. So that is another piece of evidence that contradicts said assumption.

As you pointed out.. The General has given a good account of himself in Sabers vs Mace, Ventress and others. In fact, Mace was only able to defeat The General via the force. In Sabers, Mace couldn't dispose of him and had some very nice comments.. "never felt that kinda of strength in a sword fight" among other things. Kenobi also bested him. True, not in sabers only, but he disarmed him on multiple occasions in sword play. Let's not forget, that Mace per the novel makes it clear how formidable The General is, and tells Kenobi he has a better chance to beat him.. even better han him or yoda.. Even with a hint hyperbole that is some high praise.

Even Padawan kenobi defeated Maul via sabers.. once disarming part of his weapon and another time cutting him in half. Sure, Maul was over confident and taken by surprise, but he still got the job done.

So yes, I do believe Kenobi is in the league of dooku in a sabers on fight. The reason why Yoda would get an advantage over Kenobi isn't because he would tool him ni sabers, but because of his force powers.

Dooku by ROTS wasn't prime anymore.. he looked to be weaker than Yoda, so trying to say he's in that league is a mistake. He believed he was no match for Sids.. he's not in that league. Mace would beat him in sabers for a variety of reasons. So, holding him in that kinda of company isn't quite accurate. STyle make fights. Yeah, I believe a little past his prime Dooku could lose a saber fight to a prime focused Obi Wan

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is where that line of thinking fails though... Dooku, has NEVER proven to be Kenobi's superior in just Sabers. In the movies and in the TCW's.. He's always gained an Advantage via the force. Not by superior blade work. So, actually it's not a matter of assuming.. it's a fact seen over and over again. You have it the other way my friend.. you're assuming something not in evidence. I do have evidence, though.

Dooku, on a few occasions, has matched Yoda in sabers. You won't convince me that Kenobi can do the same. Don't get me wrong, I think Kenobi's mastery of Soresu is such that Dooku might have to work quite hard for the win-- but in the end he would win. Again: to say that Kenobi can beat Dooku is to say that Kenobi can beat Yoda. Not happening.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He believed he was no match for Sids. I believe I know the quote you are thinking of... And it had nothing to do with Palpatine's saber-prowess surpassing Dooku's. It had everything to do with Palpatine's overall force powers surpassing Dooku's.

Originally posted by Galan007
I believe I know the quote you are thinking of...

I don't?

Originally posted by Galan007
I do have evidence, though.

Dooku, on a few occasions, has matched Yoda in sabers. You won't convince me that Kenobi can do the same. Don't get me wrong, I think Kenobi's mastery of Soresu is such that Dooku might have to work quite hard for the win-- but in the end he would win. Again: to say that Kenobi can beat Dooku is to say that Kenobi can beat Yoda. Not happening.

I believe I know the quote you are thinking of... And it had nothing to do with Palpatine's saber-prowess surpassing Dooku's. It had everything to do with Palpatine's overall force powers surpassing Dooku's.

When has Dooku matched hiim in sabers though... He merely stalemated him for a brief period of time.. That isn't what I call matching.. When yoda is casually dismissing Dooku's force tk throwing stuff... casual absorbing the lighting and firing it back.. and going "much to learn you still have" then dooku fleeing after a brief saber fight? I don't really call that matching. The other encounter was when dooku was being amped by a DS nexus, and yoda was holding back not wanting to kill Dooku, and again dooku still fled. These aren't what I call putting him in Yoda's league. IMO the only person in Yoda's league in Sids (not counting other expanded stuff just the movies) and even then yoda came acorss looking superior. I don't agree with this notion that Dooku is on par iwth Yoda in sabers as I haven't seen him prove such.. As you admit Dooku and Kenobi could fight for awhile and the fight get broken up.. Thus kenobi would have matched Dooku.. well not really.. there was no conclusion. Lasting a brief period.. isn't imo matching. At least you agree Kenobi could hold his own via sabers and give dooku a good run, in the end, that is what I'm saying. I just believe Kenobi could win

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
My problem with comparing Dooku to Sids and how Sids did against Fisto.. is that Sids did that with blinding speed. I've never seen Dooku mentioned with that kinda speed. Thus, I don't think Dooku could dispose of Fisto THAT quickly.
He fought on par with Yoda. Mace Windu has 24 strikes per second in ROTS novel. Now granted that's probably amped up on Sidious' power, but still he had the speed to match Grievous' own 20 strikes per second.
"In the history of the Jedi Order only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master in lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."-Jedi Power Sourcebook.

Yoda is almost undoubtedly faster than Mace. And Dooku could compete with him on neutral ground. I see no reason if he kicks Kenobi away like he did with Anakin, he couldn't dispose of Fisto in those few seconds.



Kenobi's defenses could barely keep up with Grievous, the same Grievous Dooku embarrases whenever they train.

errr you mean the same Grievous who's strike count is above that of Dooku's? Not sure what point that makes. Point is, Mace believed he was the main for the job.. even more so than he or Yoda. That speaks volumes about the mastery of Kenobi and his style. As I pointed out, WHEN has dooku even looked like Yoda's equal... WHEN did this occur. I don't believe it looked that way in the movie.. so where.. Not on their fight in the nexus.. Yoda also came across as superior and again Dooku fled. This whole notion that Dooku is on par with Yoda really has little backing.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
errr you mean the same Grievous who's strike count is above that of Dooku's?
Since when?



They are on the same level. Yoda dueled him for 30 seconds and still couldn't gain an edge.
That may not seem like a long time, but consider this. Within...ehhh 45-60 seconds Yoda was able to disarm Sidious. That's Mace being humble. If Mace can do 24 strikes per second, that's enough to overload Kenobi's defenses.

Also Nick Gillard and GL consider Mace, Yoda, Sidious, and ROTS Anakin as level 9 duelists. Dooku is considered Mace's equal in everything so he's also undoubtedly level 9. ROTS Kenobi is stated to be level 8. Dooku is Kenobi's superior in sabers.

Can I see the narration that speaks about how fast Dooku can strike per second then?

Ummm that logic doesn't work... Dooku was WAY more experienced than Mace when they sparred, and lest you forget, it's SPARRING.. That has pretty much zero relavance to a real fight. Especially when you're taking away Mace advantages over Dooku i.e. Vaapad and Shatterpoint. That is a no go there. Further, your line of thinking of Mace is a 9.. and there is narration stating Dooku and Mace are equal, so thus he's a 9 doesn't work if you don't do the same for Kenobi. Kenobi actually BEAT Anakin in a LIFE AND DEATH FIGHT. Not a sparring match, not some random narration stating they are equal. In a real fight. So NO dooku isn't level 9 unless Kenobi is.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Can I see the narration that speaks about how fast Dooku can strike per second then?

Ummm that logic doesn't work... Dooku was WAY more experienced than Mace when they sparred, and lest you forget, it's SPARRING.. That has pretty much zero relavance to a real fight. Especially when you're taking away Mace advantages over Dooku i.e. Vaapad and Shatterpoint. That is a no go there. Further, your line of thinking of Mace is a 9.. and there is narration stating Dooku and Mace are equal, so thus he's a 9 doesn't work if you don't do the same for Kenobi. Kenobi actually BEAT Anakin in a LIFE AND DEATH FIGHT. Not a sparring match, not some random narration stating they are equal. In a real fight. So NO dooku isn't level 9 unless Kenobi is.

Red herring, because Anakin was emotionally distraught (force choking his wife, fighting his father figure, having been seen crying moments before.)

Also.
"In the history of the Jedi Order only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master in lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."-Jedi Power Sourcebook.
^This says nothing about sparring. Overcame him
in battle. The implications here are obvious. Jedi fight to disarm, why would that be much different than a regular duel.

Mace ended his duel with Sidious without a fatality, Dooku also ended his duel with Obi-Wan with minor injuries, and Dooku was able to inflict an injury on Yoda with Yoda still being able to kick his ass after.

Canon sources have also stated Anakin to be stronger than Kenobi. No such reference has ever been made about Windu and Dooku...except in Dooku's favor.

That is your evidence man... REALLY? So tell me then.. WHEN were these battles and why were Dooku, Mace and Yoda all fighting TO THE DEATH or BATTLING as you call it. Please cite these fights and where they occured. Some random HYPERBOLIC statement WITH NO DETAILS isn't evidence. That would be circumstancial evidence at best in a court of law. So, please enlighten me on when these BATTLES took place.

These battles were obviously referring to sparring sessions were are a common thing. Sparring SESSION AREN'T LIFE AND DEATH SITUATIONS. Plus you forgot to factor in that Dooku was much older than Mace and had more experience as well. You must also remember that Mace couldn't use Vaapad or Shatterpoint to the level and degree he could in a no holds barred fight. Doesn't get more circumstancial than that.

You also forgot that THE reason Anakin was a level 9 was because HE TURNED to the DS. Without doing so, he was a level 8 like Kenobi. So no, those things you mentioned didn't deter him from being a level 9. As I've stated Kenobi had just as much confliction about killing what he considered his son.. than a angry Anakin had about killing him. In fact, one could argue, Kenobi would be holding back more.

Point is, there is NO WAY you can conclude Dooku is a level 9.. without concluding Kenobi is a level 9. There is clear evidence to support Kenobi being such.. not Dooku. A random hyperbolic statement isn't close to the same level of evidence as ACTUALLY WINNING A LIFE AND DEATH BATTLE AGAINST A LEVEL 9 FOE

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
When has Dooku matched hiim in sabers though... He merely stalemated him for a brief period of time.. That isn't what I call matching.. Read the AotC novelization. Dooku was very much portrayed as a peer of Yoda, where saber-play is concerned. Dark Rendezvous also portrays Dooku in a similar light.

Conversely, Kenobi has never once been portrayed remotely close to Yoda's level... Or Dooku's.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kenobi's defenses could barely keep up with Grievous, the same Grievous Dooku embarrases whenever they train. Very good point.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't? Likely the quote he made about Palps in Dark Rendezvous. That's the only one I can think of..?

yet.. this same General couldn't be bested by Mace in sabers and was taken out by the force. The same mace with a hit strike greater than Dooku.. Odd..

I have read the novel my friend.. and in the movie and in the Novel.. Yoda came across as his superior. Even in the nexus Yoda came across as superior. Each time Dooku fled, not the other way around. Dooku is very good in sabers.. but so is Kenobi

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
yet.. this same General couldn't be bested by Mace in sabers and was taken out by the force.

Just because he didn't get around to Saber besting him in that instance doesn't mean he couldn't. You know how many times in the CW Kenobi has resorted to using the Force to best Grievous?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and was taken out by the force. The same mace with a hit strike greater than Dooku.. Odd..

I assume you have a source for this and your not just making it up simply because Mace has a couple of speed narrations whilst Dooku doesn't. As far as I'm aware Yoda doesn't have such speed narrations either.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I have read the novel my friend.. and in the movie and in the Novel.. Yoda came across as his superior. Even in the nexus Yoda came across as superior. Each time Dooku fled, not the other way around. Dooku is very good in sabers.. but so is Kenobi

The movie was the final and canon version of the fight which is very different to the Novel version. Yoda doesn't stand in one place deflecting all Dooku's best Saber attacks and he doesn't have Dooku skipping back desperately.

They seemed to have fought on even terms with Yoda having the edge at most.

But if you want to go by the novel it does state Yoda was exhausted after their fight. Which actually isn't rendered non-canon by the movie.


Also the fight in DR was much more even then people make out. And if you want to use that source then it's best not to ignore or put aside the narration that Dooku and Mace are equals, as that quote was given during that same fight.

Yeah in the novel Yoda comes across as even more superior than the movie.. which only helps my point not hurt it. Didn't they meet another time in a DS nexus?

Further, so you DO have a strike count for Dooku? Then please post the narration. If not, then let's not assume he's on par with Windu, who as far as i know, has the highest count ever stated.

Anyway as for this thread, in pure Sabers Obi-Wan will prove a difficult challenge to any of the top-tiers. I do believe now being The Master of Soresu isn't just a nice quote but actually means something.

Neither Maul or Opress could land even one hit on Kenobi whilst he was landing mutiple hits on them. Sith Anakin also couldn't defeat him.

So I can't say for sure that Dooku will. If he does it will be difficult.

On the other hand if he doesn't I doubt Kenobi's going to defeat him either.

And I agree with MY that Fisto will get taken out at some point. Dooku showed the ability to defend himself against Anakin and Obi-Wan. So he will have a much easier time defending against Fisto and Obi-Wan. But at some point Fisto's defenses will fail.

This is what it comes down to.. All dooku has is comparing him with Mace and Yoda is narration about sparring. NOTHING MORE. Sparring is well, just sparring. It isn't a life or death situation and not even close to the same. Is dooku one of the top duelist in the mythos.. sure.. he's upper tier.. but he has nothing putting him on Mace or Yoda's level. They have BATTLE feats putting them there.. Yoda coming across as superior both times they met in battle... Yoda coming across as superior to Sids.. We have Mace beating Sids... All these BATTLE feats carry much more weight than... SPARRING SESSIONS. The whole point is.. Kenobi can outduel dooku in a sabers only fight.. he outdueled somebody who became stronger in sabers turning to the DS.. yet beat Dooku when he was still a level 9. Kenobi beat him.. yet I'm suppose to believe he has no chance to beat dooku? Nah.. not buying it. Kenobi is in his prime.. Dooku isn't. That makes a big difference. I believe Kenobi can outlast dooku in a sabers only battle.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anyway as for this thread, in pure Sabers Obi-Wan will prove a difficult challenge to any of the top-tiers. I do believe now being The Master of Soresu isn't just a nice quote but actually means something.

Neither Maul or Opress could land even one hit on Kenobi whilst he was landing mutiple hits on them. Sith Anakin also couldn't defeat him.

So I can't say for sure that Dooku will. If he does it will be difficult.

On the other hand if he doesn't I doubt Kenobi's going to defeat him either.

And I agree with MY that Fisto will get taken out at some point. Dooku showed the ability to defend himself against Anakin and Obi-Wan. So he will have a much easier time defending against Fisto and Obi-Wan. But at some point Fisto's defenses will fail.

We are in agreement then.. I pretty much feel the exact same way DP.. Finally we agree lol

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yeah in the novel Yoda comes across as even more superior than the movie.. which only helps my point not hurt it.

It's too different to be considered canon. And it left Yoda exhausted anyway.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Further, so you DO have a strike count for Dooku? Then please post the narration. If not, then let's not assume he's on par with Windu, who as far as i know, has the highest count ever stated.

So shall I assume Windu is faster than Yoda as well since Yoda doesn't have a strike count either?

Windu and Dooku are confirmed to be pretty equal in Sabers by DR. So there's no reason for you to assume Windu is substantially superior.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We are in agreement then.. I pretty much feel the exact same way DP.. Finally we agree lol



Had to happen at some point

Aren't movie novelisations considered as canon as the movies?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda




Kenobi's defenses could barely keep up with Grievous, the same Grievous. Dooku embarrases whenever they train.

You need to watch RotS again. Kenobi was beating Grievous handily. Chopping of two of his arms in about a minute does not indicate he could barely keep up with him. Quite the opposite, actually.

Kenobi is one of the few Jedi who Dooku warns Grievous not to seek out in the battlefield.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That is your evidence man... REALLY? So tell me then.. WHEN were these battles and why were Dooku, Mace and Yoda all fighting TO THE DEATH or BATTLING as you call it. Please cite these fights and where they occured. Some random HYPERBOLIC statement WITH NO DETAILS isn't evidence. That would be circumstancial evidence at best in a court of law. So, please enlighten me on when these BATTLES took place.

Jedi don't battle to the death numb nuts. Generally they fight to disarm.
Example is Agen Kolar vs. Quinlan Vos.
"Yield that would have been your arm"
Same concept in a sparring match. How the hell do you think Jedi Masters get so good?
The concept that 'Oh it wasn't a fight to the death so it doesn't count' is absurd. The only saber duels that are to the death didn't occur until the Clone Wars. And those were the first 'to the death' saber duels in hundreds of years. And yet Yoda and Mace were the greatest blademasters in the order's 20,000+ year history.

Also let's not forget that Vaapad only requires enjoyment in the battle, and no where is it stated that it cannot be applied in a sparring match.

In fact, when Quinlan Vos applies a Vaapad manuver MID-SPAR with Windu, he comments on it. So don't give me that. 'Mace was holding back' 'it was a sparring match' bullshit. It's not gonna fly here.



Give me a quote that says Mace was holding back. You are also ignoring the ****ing narrative that states that they are equal.


No that's wrong. ROTS Anakin, is level 9. This is made clear in TCW where Anakin repeatedly proves he is Dooku's peer with a blade.

Point is, there is NO WAY you can conclude Dooku is a level 9.. without concluding Kenobi is a level 9. There is clear evidence to support Kenobi being such.. not Dooku. A random hyperbolic statement isn't close to the same level of evidence as ACTUALLY WINNING A LIFE AND DEATH BATTLE AGAINST A LEVEL 9 FOE

Yes you can you nitwit. You keep referencing the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan fight. A fight where.
1. Anakin was fighting his ****ing father figure.
2. Anakin had just choked his wife, and the whole reason he turend the the damned Dark Side in the first place, half to death,
3. He was just crying because of the massacres he had committed.
4. HE WAS CONFLICTED.

Obi-Wan on the other hand was resolved to put down Anakin the moment he saw what a monster he had become. That entire fight was a big low end showing. Every piece of canon made since ROTS has stated and made it blatantly obvious that Anakin is Obi-Wan's superior.
I am tired of people on this board disregarding that.

Just like people disregarding that Dooku has been stated to be Mace's superior in raw swordsmanship, multiple times.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yeah in the novel Yoda comes across as even more superior than the movie.. which only helps my point not hurt it. Didn't they meet another time in a DS nexus?

Further, so you DO have a strike count for Dooku? Then please post the narration. If not, then let's not assume he's on par with Windu, who as far as i know, has the highest count ever stated.

Oh my God. If someone has the speed to parry a strike count of 24 hits per second. Then they are able to replicate speed of that level. Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, are all those people.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
You need to watch RotS again. Kenobi was beating Grievous handily. Chopping of two of his arms in about a minute does not indicate he could barely keep up with him. Quite the opposite, actually.

Kenobi is one of the few Jedi who Dooku warns Grievous not to seek out in the battlefield.

That's not what I'm saying. Obi-Wan begins to win when he goes on the offensive. Before that happens his defenses are being overloaded as per ROTS novelization.

Ah, as per the the RotS novelization.

A question, does the canon from the movie overrule the novelizatons' if they contradict each other?

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Ah, as per the the RotS novelization.

A question, does the canon from the movie overrule the novelizatons' if they contradict each other?

They don't contradict each other. Until Kenobi sees a whole in the General's offensive and cuts off his arm, he's being pushed back and can't do shit.

Except that he takes very little time to see the whole, and once he does, he starts kicking the s*** out of Grievous.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Except that he takes very little time to see the whole, and once he does, he starts kicking the s*** out of Grievous.

With combatants moving at 20 strikes per second to the naked eye it would seem like little time.

Dooku takes this

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dooku takes this

I don't think Dooku is overwhelming superior to Kenobi in sabers (he has the feats that you could argue he's on a similar level) but Fisto fails in this match up. Not only is Form 1 weak against Form 2, but he has trouble against Ventress, let alone Dooku. If Kenobi had a less sucky partner, I'd be more confident he could take this. Unless of course, you give Fisto two sabers.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is what it comes down to.. All dooku has is comparing him with Mace and Yoda is narration about sparring. NOTHING MORE. Sparring is well, just sparring. It isn't a life or death situation and not even close to the same. Is dooku one of the top duelist in the mythos.. sure.. he's upper tier.. but he has nothing putting him on Mace or Yoda's level. They have BATTLE feats putting them there.. Yoda coming across as superior both times they met in battle... Yoda coming across as superior to Sids.. We have Mace beating Sids... All these BATTLE feats carry much more weight than... SPARRING SESSIONS.

Windu who was not holding back had an qual fight with Sora Bulq. The same Bulq, with the aid of Tholme, was just destroyed by Count. In terms of sabers, when Dooku throwed out one lightsaber from his hand, and the force.

This could go either way tbh.

Dooku's case:

He's beaten AOTC Kenobi in sabers (although Kenobi may have been a bit worn down in the Geonosis arena);

Able to hold his own against tanks like Yoda.

Kenobi's Case:

Defeated Sith Anakin who, most would assume can defeat Dooku;

Experience of fighting in the clone wars, both Anakin and Kenobi greatly improved since AOTC;

In ROTS, Dooku was only able to knock out Kenobi through the force, and this is a saber thread;

He has Kit Fisto with him.

My personal view is that Kenobi and Fisto can win this fight, but Dooku has always done a good job of intimidating Kenobi.

So i'd say team takes this 8/10 times.

Originally posted by mnat801
This could go either way tbh.

Dooku's case:

He's beaten AOTC Kenobi in sabers (although Kenobi may have been a bit worn down in the Geonosis arena);

Able to hold his own against tanks like Yoda.

Kenobi's Case:

Defeated Sith Anakin who, most would assume can defeat Dooku;

Experience of fighting in the clone wars, both Anakin and Kenobi greatly improved since AOTC;

In ROTS, Dooku was only able to knock out Kenobi through the force, and this is a saber thread;

He has Kit Fisto with him.

My personal view is that Kenobi and Fisto can win this fight, but Dooku has always done a good job of intimidating Kenobi.

So i'd say team takes this 8/10 times.

No one in there right mind believes that the mindraped Anakin that fought Kenobi on Mustafar could defeat Dooku.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No one in there right mind believes that the mindraped Anakin that fought Kenobi on Mustafar could defeat Dooku. But its still not a far fetched comparison though.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No one in there right mind believes that the mindraped Anakin that fought Kenobi on Mustafar could defeat Dooku. This.

By the time Anakin fought Kenobi on Mustafar, he was merely a burned-out and overtly conflicted shell of the man he was earlier in the film.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Jedi don't battle to the death numb nuts. Generally they fight to disarm.
Example is Agen Kolar vs. Quinlan Vos.
"Yield that would have been your arm"
Same concept in a sparring match. How the hell do you think Jedi Masters get so good?
The concept that 'Oh it wasn't a fight to the death so it doesn't count' is absurd. The only saber duels that are to the death didn't occur until the Clone Wars. And those were the first 'to the death' saber duels in hundreds of years. And yet Yoda and Mace were the greatest blademasters in the order's 20,000+ year history.

Also let's not forget that Vaapad only requires enjoyment in the battle, and no where is it stated that it cannot be applied in a sparring match.

In fact, when Quinlan Vos applies a Vaapad manuver MID-SPAR with Windu, he comments on it. So don't give me that. 'Mace was holding back' 'it was a sparring match' bullshit. It's not gonna fly here.



Give me a quote that says Mace was holding back. You are also ignoring the ****ing narrative that states that they are equal.


No that's wrong. ROTS Anakin, is level 9. This is made clear in TCW where Anakin repeatedly proves he is Dooku's peer with a blade.

Point is, there is NO WAY you can conclude Dooku is a level 9.. without concluding Kenobi is a level 9. There is clear evidence to support Kenobi being such.. not Dooku. A random hyperbolic statement isn't close to the same level of evidence as ACTUALLY WINNING A LIFE AND DEATH BATTLE AGAINST A LEVEL 9 FOE

Yes you can you nitwit. You keep referencing the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan fight. A fight where.
1. Anakin was fighting his ****ing father figure.
2. Anakin had just choked his wife, and the whole reason he turend the the damned Dark Side in the first place, half to death,
3. He was just crying because of the massacres he had committed.
4. HE WAS CONFLICTED.

Obi-Wan on the other hand was resolved to put down Anakin the moment he saw what a monster he had become. That entire fight was a big low end showing. Every piece of canon made since ROTS has stated and made it blatantly obvious that Anakin is Obi-Wan's superior.
I am tired of people on this board disregarding that.

Just like people disregarding that Dooku has been stated to be Mace's superior in raw swordsmanship, multiple times.



Oh my God. If someone has the speed to parry a strike count of 24 hits per second. Then they are able to replicate speed of that level. Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, are all those people.

Okay so you admit you have no fing battle they fought in and you just made that up. Good, then stop going on and on about something that NEVER occurred. They never battled as you put it dumbass.

You do understand that part of Vaapad is attacking in a very aggressive and deadly manner. You get that don't you. So in sparring you NEVER go full force you idiot. So right then and there takes away death strikes that would occur in a real fight and end it. Same with shatterpoint... if you can't find a shatterpoint to end a fight cause it's sparring you are eliminating that possibility. Don't tell me u u are dumb enough to think sparring and life and death situations are the same? Have you ever played a sport in your life? I'm starting not to think so.

Why are you not ALSO addressing the fact that during said sparring sessions... Mace wasn't as old and experienced in the force as dooku. What is so hard to understand about.. Mace GROWING in power from the time of the alleged sparring sessions THAT WE NEVER SAW.. THAT WE ONLY HAVE ONE OFF HYPERBOLIC lines about? You do understand Mace grew in power by then right? There is also no proof mace had mastered Vaapad by that time or shatterpoint when the sparring sessions took place. All those factors and the nature of sparring makes those lines irrelevant.

WHO has Dooku BEATEN BY FEATS that puts him on the level of Mace and Yoda.. Mace and Yoda have the FEATS to warrant such a lofty level. Dooku does not. SO WHICH FEATS OF HIS put him on that level?

You're a complete moron. There are CANON levels for Saber skills. Dooku ISN'T stated to be a level 9.. PERIOD. Doing okay against yoda yet coming across as inferior isn't really THAT good. Sparring sessions aren't that good. So what we have is HIM LOSING to somebody that at that time was a level 9.. yet you wanna make him a level 9. Did you graduate junior high? Even a kid would know that makes zero sense. As I stated KENOBI BEAT somebody that was a level 9... more than we can say about dooku eh?

Anakin was stated to be a 9 once he turned to the DS... so as much as you wanna make excuses and not believe the rating isn't my issue. He was that. Stop going on and on about how uspet he was this and that. He JUST KILLED INNOCENT KIDS... That means he was prepared and willing to let himself go to the DS. Some regret.. sure... but not enough to throw out the fight. Ppint is, if he could do that... then he certainly wouldn't have an issue killing kenobi.. somebody that he thought turned his love against him Nice try though... but once again basic logic alludes you. You're also forgetting that Kenobi was also emotional.. he would be emotional about killing his son.. that is more conflict than what Anakin would be feeling. Period. Anakin had already made his bed... Kenobi had to decide to make his right then and there. Much more recent conflict than Anakin.. who had already done worse things before kenobi showed up

Point is, Kenobi is a level 9 if dooku is.. Kenobi beat somebody that BECAME a level 9.. Dooku lost to somebody not a level 9 yet. Is that basic conclusion to much for you ?

Originally posted by Galan007
This.

By the time Anakin fought Kenobi on Mustafar, he was merely a burned-out and overtly conflicted shell of the man he was earlier in the film.

Untrue as canon sources including the novel have im GAINING in power once he turns to the ds.. he can feel his power grow. That is hardly a shell of his former self. People need to remember that Anakin had already done something far worse by the time Kenobi showed up. He had already made his bed. Killing Kenobi at that point wasn't a big deal to Anakin.. he had already done worse. Kenobi on the other hand.. had to kill his son.. Just as much.. if not more conflict there.. yet he got the job done.

Anakin thought he had just killed his wife and the baby inside her. On top of that, he was fighting his former master and father-figure in a battle to the death. Guilt, remorse, sadness, confliction(of which Anakin blatantly displayed)-- these emotions weaken you, they do not strengthen you. No canon source says otherwise. Simple.

That said, Obi-Wan did not beat a guy who was superior to Dooku-- he beat a burned-out shell of that guy. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Galan007
Anakin thought he had just killed his wife and the baby inside her. On top of that, he was fighting his former master and father-figure in a battle to the death. Guilt, remorse, sadness, confliction(of which Anakin blatantly displayed)-- these emotions weaken you, they do not strengthen you. No canon source says otherwise. Simple.

That said, Obi-Wan did not beat a guy who was superior to Dooku-- he beat a burned-out shell of that guy. Nothing more. That isn't true...Anakin SPECIFICALLY says he FEELS his power grow upon turning to the DS. That is exactly what is said in a canon source friend. Filoni also agrees with that as he rated Anakin a 9 BECAUSE he switched to the DS.

Anakin expressed NO such emotion while fighting kenobi... What are people not getting about.. when you turn to the DS you let go some of your old jedi thoughts of regret.. guilt.. sadness. This isn't Jedi Anakin doing those deeds... it's SITH ANAKIN... It's a faulty comparison trying to state what would upset him as a jedi as to what would as a sith. He had killed INNOCENT kids... yet you think he's going o be upset about killing obi wan? Come on, where is the logic in that. He had accepted his role and what he had become. If anythying.. Kenobi was more conflicted than Anakin... He hadn't turned to the DS.. nor had he already commited terrible acts... Yet he was no faced with killing his son.. Yeah i'd say he had just as much emotion as a already turned Anakin who accepted his new role and relished its new found power.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That isn't true...Anakin SPECIFICALLY says he FEELS his power grow upon turning to the DS. That is exactly what is said in a canon source friend. Filoni also agrees with that as he rated Anakin a 9 BECAUSE he switched to the DS.

Anakin expressed NO such emotion while fighting kenobi... What are people not getting about.. when you turn to the DS you let go some of your old jedi thoughts of regret.. guilt.. sadness. This isn't Jedi Anakin doing those deeds... it's SITH ANAKIN... It's a faulty comparison trying to state what would upset him as a jedi as to what would as a sith. He had killed INNOCENT kids... yet you think he's going o be upset about killing obi wan? Come on, where is the logic in that. He had accepted his role and what he had become. If anythying.. Kenobi was more conflicted than Anakin... He hadn't turned to the DS.. nor had he already commited terrible acts... Yet he was no faced with killing his son.. Yeah i'd say he had just as much emotion as a already turned Anakin who accepted his new role and relished its new found power.

Filoni ranked Anakin? When? Does the saber rankings even count as canon?

Anyway, I suppose that there is an argument to be made that Anakin was focused and bloodlusted on killing Kenobi. Kenobi would also be hindered by his initial unwillingness to kill Anakin, based on the novelization. I wouldn't say Anakin was hindered in the duel since he was continuously pushing Kenobi back. However, hubris led to his downfall when he jumped. He could have won had he not made such a tactically ridiculous move.

Oh this is a sabers-only thread? Team 1 may take it then.

Originally posted by Galan007
Anakin thought he had just killed his wife and the baby inside her. No he only found out when Sidious told him. Before that he thought she was alive.

Originally posted by mnat801
No he only found out when Sidious told him. Before that he thought she was alive.

Yeah, Anakin turned to the dark side because he felt it would give him power to save her. At that point, he was, per novelisation, caring only about himself.

Originally posted by Vensai
Filoni ranked Anakin? When? Does the saber rankings even count as canon?



Nick Glillard rated them. Not Dave Filoni. He gave them ratings when choreographing the ROTS duels based on how they would compare to each other on neutral ground. He states the rating originally came from Lucas which would make them canon.

Even if they didn't originate from Lucas I'd say the words of the stunt coordinator who choreographed the fights should be taken as seriously as we take Dave Filoni's words when discussing the events of TCW series.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That isn't true...Anakin SPECIFICALLY says he FEELS his power grow upon turning to the DS. That is exactly what is said in a canon source friend. Filoni also agrees with that as he rated Anakin a 9 BECAUSE he switched to the DS.

Anakin expressed NO such emotion while fighting kenobi... What are people not getting about.. when you turn to the DS you let go some of your old jedi thoughts of regret.. guilt.. sadness. This isn't Jedi Anakin doing those deeds... it's SITH ANAKIN... It's a faulty comparison trying to state what would upset him as a jedi as to what would as a sith. He had killed INNOCENT kids... yet you think he's going o be upset about killing obi wan? Come on, where is the logic in that. He had accepted his role and what he had become. If anythying.. Kenobi was more conflicted than Anakin... He hadn't turned to the DS.. nor had he already commited terrible acts... Yet he was no faced with killing his son.. Yeah i'd say he had just as much emotion as a already turned Anakin who accepted his new role and relished its new found power. The impression I got from both the novel AND the film is that Anakin was a mindraped and utterly conflicted mess toward the end... And George Lucas agrees with me! The following quotes were taken exclusively from the "Director's Commentary" portion of the RotS DVD. Said comments all came from the mouth of Lucas himself, and as such represent the most canon SW evidence that exists...

*"Anakin knows murdering a bunch of was wrong, but he won't admit it to Padme. He tries rationalizing his decisions in spite of knowing they are wrong."

*"The tear in this scene shows that Anakin knows what he's doing is wrong, but he has now committed himself to a path he may not agree with."

*"If Anakin had to turn to the dark side all over again, he probably wouldn't have."

*"There is still good in him."


Anakin was never 100% committed to the dark side; he was always conflicted about his decisions-- heck, Lucas outright stated that if Anakin were given the option again, he wouldn't turn to the dark side. So again: feelings like confliction, remorse, and guilt(of which GL himself stated Anakin was experiencing) do not strengthen you. They weaken you. Simple.

Not .. NOT ONE of those things you posted had ANYTHING to do with how he fought against Kenobi.. NONE of Lucas' commentary nor ANY narration in the novel imply or even hint at him holding back or not fighting to the best of his ability because of some guilt. There is NO narration that supports such a stance. Knowing something is wrong... having some doubts about your decision /= holding back or not giving is all to kill kenobi. Nor does feeling guilty effect his fighting ability. So no, the narration doesn't support your stance that it affected him in his fight. If you're arguing that he had some guilt or some doubt after turning.. nobody is arguing said point. However, that wasn't your point, and your point was that it held him back or he didn't fight properly against Kenobi... and there is ZERO evidence to support such a stance.

The evidence is actually the opposite... He had NEVER felt such power before once he embraced the DS... he felt it sweeling in him. It also mentions how powerful he was getting when he let his anger take over (fight with kenobi). All these things point to him being MORE powerful than before not weaker. As i stated.. he had already accepted what he had done and knew there was no going back.. He had already killed younglings... There was no going back and he knew that.

Anakin was already conflicted when he fought Kenobi. He was conflicted as a Sith in general. He was also guilty and remorseful about the decisions he'd made-- to the point that he wished he weren't a Sith at all. Comments from Lucas>>your opinion.

Those type of feelings weaken; they do not strengthen. Argue it all you want, but it's really clear as day.

Lucas opinion is also greater than your friend. Can you show me ANY narration supporting it hinder him in his fight with kenobi? can you show any narration or commentary that he held back in his figth with kenobi? If not, then it's a non point. Again you keep arguing that he had some guilt.. some remore.. Okay... but where is it shown that is HINDERED HIM IN BATTLE WITH KENOBI.. That is what YOU have to prove and there IS NO PROOF to support such a stance.

In fact, Lucas himself as you say.. made it clear ANAKIN NEVER FELT STRONGER once he turned to the DS. He felt strength like he never had before. His anger in his figth with kenobi made him EVEN STRONGER. All this narration points to him being more powerful not weaker. I will await the narration that it hindered him or made him weaker.. if not, it's an open and shut case.

Lol, what kind of logic is that? Again:Originally posted by Galan007
*"Anakin knows murdering a bunch of was wrong, but he won't admit it to Padme. He tries rationalizing his decisions in spite of knowing they are wrong."

*"The tear in this scene shows that Anakin knows what he's doing is wrong, but he has now committed himself to a path he may not agree with."

*"If Anakin had to turn to the dark side all over again, he probably wouldn't have."

*"There is still good in him."

Anakin felt conflicted. He felt remorseful. He felt guilty. Don't be obtuse and act like those emotions made him more powerful-- they obviously would have hindered him more than anything. He didn't even want to be a Sith for crying out loud. If you feel guilty about what you're doing, for example, you're going to be more prone to making mistakes. If you feel remorseful about what you're doing, for example, then you might subconsciously hold back a bit. Etc.(these are basic psychological concepts, btw.)

Once more: per Lucas Anakin was a mindphucked mess who was ashamed of the choices he'd made. A sound and confident mind(when he fought Dooku)>>a conflicted, guilty and remorseful mind(when he fought Kenobi). Simple.

So you're saying the narration that has Anakin saying he's NEVER felt more powerful ever.. the narration stating that he felt himself grow in power once he turned.. the narration that said his anger (fighting kenobi) made him stronger.. so you're claiming those are non canon? Cause if not, those are in direct conflict with what you're saying.. Directly.

You're making the mistake of trying to equate somebody feeling 75% guilty or remorseful to feeling 10% of those things.. You will not have the same reaction or state of mind with either of those percentages correct? So then, please tell me where Anakin fit into that. Cause in order for your view to be plausible.. he'd have to be like 75% or higher than way. Feeling a little bit of this or that isn't going to effect him.

Further, even if you believe he is VERY guilty and remorseful.. you still need to show it effecting him in battle. There is ZERO narration.. and I litteally mean this ZERO narration that supports him being gulity and remorseful and hindering him in a fight. So where is that narration ?

You're ignoring logical facts in favor of your own opinion. Faulty, faulty.

Anyway, I've posted more than enough evidence to support my stance. You've posted none. We'll leave it at that.

and you're ignoring the CANON narration stating he became more powerful.. faulty faulty faulty. That narration isn't my opinion.

Posting narration needs to PROVE what you're arguing for. You're arguing that said narration of him being remorseful or guility effected his performance.. Yet you have SHOWN NO narration even HINTING at that, let alone stating that. That is what you need to post. Nobody is arguing anakin felt some guilt or might have been remorseful. That ISN'T the argument. The argument is.. HOW much did that effect him during his fight... I say very little if any.. you say A LOT. Where is your proof???

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and you're ignoring the CANON narration stating he became more powerful.. faulty faulty faulty. That narration isn't my opinion. Either post the exact quotes OR provide me with the source in which said quotes can be found. Unless they are of an equal canonicity to GL's own words, then I simply will not regard them with any sort of esteem next to the evidence I posted.

Originally posted by Galan007
Either post the exact quotes OR provide me with the source in which said quotes can be found. Unless they are of an equal canonicity to GL's own words, then I simply will not regard them with any sort of esteem next to the evidence I posted.

They are from the Offical Star Wars site... and I'm looking for the references in the novel..

Again though, NOBODY is arguing he felt guilt or remorse.. That isn't the argument. So giving credence to your quotes isn't the question or argument buddy. The argument is you're saying it greatly hindered him in his fight with Kenobi.. I'm staying it didn't effect him to any noticeable degree. THAT is the argument. You haven't posted ANY narration even hinting at him doing poorly or holdging back against Kenobi in the least. Nothing. There IS narration stating that Kenobi was conflicted about killing Anakin.. Anakin never stated such a confliction. So if anything, the narration points to Kenobi having doubt and holding back.. not anakin. If you have any narration stating it negatively effected him or caused him to fight badly against Kenobi.. I'm all ears.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
They are from the Offical Star Wars site... and I'm looking for the references in the novel..

Again though, NOBODY is arguing he felt guilt or remorse.. That isn't the argument. So giving credence to your quotes isn't the question or argument buddy. The argument is you're saying it greatly hindered him in his fight with Kenobi.. I'm staying it didn't effect him to any noticeable degree. THAT is the argument. You haven't posted ANY narration even hinting at him doing poorly or holdging back against Kenobi in the least. Nothing. There IS narration stating that Kenobi was conflicted about killing Anakin.. Anakin never stated such a confliction. So if anything, the narration points to Kenobi having doubt and holding back.. not anakin. If you have any narration stating it negatively effected him or caused him to fight badly against Kenobi.. I'm all ears. You're horrendously dodging/ignoring the point... And you still failed to provide the actual quote/statement I asked you for.

Again:
Anakin felt conflicted. He felt remorseful. He felt guilty. Don't be obtuse and act like those emotions made him more powerful-- they obviously would have hindered him more than anything. He didn't even want to be a Sith for crying out loud. If you feel guilty about what you're doing, for example, you're going to be more prone to making mistakes. If you feel remorseful about what you're doing, for example, then you might subconsciously hold back a bit. Etc.(these are basic psychological concepts, btw.)

Once more: per Lucas Anakin was a mindphucked mess who was ashamed of the choices he'd made. A sound and confident mind(when he fought Dooku)>>a conflicted, guilty and remorseful mind(when he fought Kenobi). Simple.

Errr I feel like you're doing the exact same thing.. I'm asking for REFERENCES or NARRATION stating it hindered him IN ANYWAY.. You have provided none. So then, you'll agree that the only proof you have is your own opinion on how it MIGHT HAVE effected him correct? Further, as I stated.. there are LEVELS of feeling guilty or remorseful true or no? So, how do you know Anakin felt AS gulity as you claim him to be and thus hindering his ability with NO narration supporting such a view. Why is it so hard to post any evidence supporting it hurting him? If they felt it did.. they would've made some narration talking about how he wasn't fighting at 100% instead they made NO narration. NONE. In fact, we know per count Dooku that the angrier he gets the more powerful he becomes.. he was pretty angry against Kenobi.. I saw NO indication of gulity or remorese when he was attacking and driving back kenobi.. do you? If so please point out where? If not, then concede the point that this is only your opinion that it did, not a fact. It would only be a fact, if there was some proof or mention that it did.. there is none.

Feeling a little guility or remorseful.. doesn't mean it will effect you in a fight. For example, you could feel pretty guilty when you're sitting there watching TV thinking about the money you stole from your friend. Yet, if you try and get your money stolen and you have to fight.. I don't think those thoughts would hinder you one bit. Anakin was pissed in a rage... he wasn't thinking about being guilty.. he was trying to kill kenobi.. tnohing more.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Errr I feel like you're doing the exact same thing.. I'm asking for REFERENCES or NARRATION stating it hindered him IN ANYWAY. It's called *simple* logic.

Per Lucas, Anakin felt guilty, ashamed, remorseful, doubtful, and conflicted about everything he'd done... Christ, when Anakin was alone on Mustafar, he was literally crying over all the evil things he'd done-- so obviously he felt far more than just "a little" guilty. Those type of negative feelings simply do not strengthen a Jedi or Sith... They ONLY hinder. To assume otherwise is pure idiocy, imo.

Anakin was essentially fighting for a cause he did NOT believe in... A cause he felt horrible supporting-- hence GL's separate comments:

"The tear in this scene shows that Anakin knows what he's doing is wrong, but he has now committed himself to a path he may not agree with."

"If Anakin had to turn to the dark side all over again, he probably wouldn't have."

...Yet in lieu of such blatant facts, you still feel that Anakin was "more powerful than ever." Sorry, but that literally makes no sense at all.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's called *simple* logic.

Per Lucas, Anakin felt guilty, ashamed, remorseful, doubtful, and conflicted about everything he'd done... Christ, when Anakin was alone on Mustafar, he was literally crying over all the evil things he'd done-- so obviously he felt far more than just "a little" guilty. Those type of negative feelings simply do not strengthen a Jedi or Sith... They ONLY hinder. To assume otherwise is pure idiocy, imo.

Anakin was essentially fighting for a cause he did NOT believe in... A cause he felt horrible supporting-- hence GL's separate comments:

"The tear in this scene shows that Anakin knows what he's doing is wrong, but he has now committed himself to a path he may not agree with."

"If Anakin had to turn to the dark side all over again, he probably wouldn't have."

...Yet in lieu of such blatant facts, you still feel that Anakin was "more powerful than ever." Sorry, but that literally makes no sense at all.

He saw it as a means to an end. He was going to kill the Emperor later and take over the galaxy with Padme at his side. Sure he felt sorry for his actions, but he felt it was worth it for Padme's future happiness. And he ended up in a pool of lava for his trouble.

Originally posted by Vensai
He saw it as a means to an end. He was going to kill the Emperor later and take over the galaxy with Padme at his side. Sure he felt sorry for his actions, but he felt it was worth it for Padme's future happiness. And he ended up in a pool of lava for his trouble. GL outright said that Anakin's actions bothered him to such an extent that he literally regretted turning to the dark side-- hence him crying on Mustafar.

Either way, shame/guilt/remorse/doubt/conflict-- those emotions do not strengthen, they weaken(look at any force-user who has ever taken doubt with them into a saber fight, for example.) That is my only point.

Originally posted by Galan007
GL outright said that Anakin's actions bothered him to such an extent that he literally regretted turning to the dark side-- hence him crying on Mustafar.

Either way, shame/guilt/remorse/doubt/conflict-- those emotions do not strengthen, they weaken(look at any force-user who has ever taken doubt with them into a saber fight, for example.) That is my only point.
What relevance does it have to actual fight with Kenobi? During fight Anakin demonstrated the best performance in his life.

Canonically Anakin's combat prowess during fight with Kenobi was on parr with Yoda and Windu, despite popular believe that his performance was hampered.

Proof that Anakin is on parr with Sidious, Yoda and Mace in sabers:
"In Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine . On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious". - The making of RotS.

Proof that levels are established by Lucas:
"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting." - Nick Gillard, Homing Beacon #126

Proof that Anakin became level 9 by turning to darkside:
"To design and choreograph the sequence as well as the myriad other action-packed scenes in Revenge of the Sith Gillard says he first discussed with writer-director George Lucas the fighting prowess of each of the characters, which were ranked against other Jedi on a scale of 1 to 10.

Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented but he hasn't learned the mental side of it". - Dueling Jedi article

Dooku. Kenobi can't take him 1 on 1 and Fisto is far weaker then Kenobi so...

Originally posted by Arhael
What relevance does it have to actual fight with Kenobi? During fight Anakin demonstrated the best performance in his life.Getting his arms and legs chopped off, before nearly burning to death represents the best performance of Anakin's life, you say? Lol, your definition of "best" must be a LOT different than mine.

Personally, I think Anakin's rather effortless slaying of Dooku(a guy who was on par with "level-9-Yoda" in sabers) represents a VASTLY better showing... Yet that occurred when Anakin was supposedly a poorer duelist? Lol again!

Originally posted by Arhael
Canonically Anakin's combat prowess during fight with Kenobi was on parr with Yoda and Windu, despite popular believe that his performance was hampered. Sorry, but given that Kenobi(a "level 8" was STALEMATING Anakin(a "level 9" even though the difference between a level 8 and 9 is supposedly "enormous" is a little hard for me to believe-- in fact, I can't believe it. If Anakin were an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi after turning to the dark side, then Kenobi's Soresu would have been utterly inconsequential-- Anakin would have easily beaten him, not just stalemate him throughout the entire battle. So yeah, you can preach the "levels" stuff to people who overlook those facts.

Anyway, Lucas himself stated that when he was on Mustafar, Anakin was a mindphucked train-wreck who was full of guilt, remorse and conflict. Never, in the history of SW, have those emotions ever helped a Jedi or Sith in battle. Never. Once. Why on earth you guys think Anakin wasn't being hindered by those emotions, when any other force-user who has experienced those emotions has been hindered/weakened by them, is truly baffling to me. Personally, I think you guys are arguing just to argue. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007


Personally, I think Anakin's rather effortless slaying of Dooku

Who said it was effortless? It was after Dooku had actually almost defeated Skywalker.


Originally posted by Galan007
Sorry, but given that Kenobi(a "level 8" was STALEMATING Anakin(a "level 9"

I'd say he was "Surviving" not "Stalemating." It's Obi-Wan's mastery of a defensive style which prolonged the fight.

And the levels refer to the differences in combat prowess on a level terrain.

Originally posted by Galan007
Getting his arms and legs chopped off, before nearly burning to death represents the best performance of Anakin's life, you say? Lol, your definition of "best" must be a LOT different than mine.

Personally, I think Anakin's rather effortless slaying of Dooku(a guy who was on par with "level-9-Yoda" in sabers) represents a VASTLY better showing... Yet that occurred when Anakin was supposedly a poorer duelist? Lol again!

Sorry, but given that Kenobi(a "level 8" was STALEMATING Anakin(a "level 9" even though the difference between a level 8 and 9 is supposedly "enormous" is a little hard for me to believe-- in fact, I can't believe it. If Anakin were an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi after turning to the dark side, then Kenobi's Soresu would have been utterly inconsequential-- Anakin would have easily beaten him, not just stalemate him throughout the entire battle. So yeah, you can preach the "levels" stuff to people who overlook those facts.

Anyway, Lucas himself stated that when he was on Mustafar, Anakin was a mindphucked train-wreck who was full of guilt, remorse and conflict. Never, in the history of SW, have those emotions ever helped a Jedi or Sith in battle. Never. Once. Why on earth you guys think Anakin wasn't being hindered by those emotions, when any other force-user who has experienced those emotions has been hindered/weakened by them, is truly baffling to me. Personally, I think you guys are arguing just to argue. /shrug

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Who said it was effortless? It was after Dooku had actually almost defeated Skywalker. ...And then Anakin came back and wtfpwned Dooku in an effortless fashion... A FAR better feat than stalemating Kenobi for several minutes before being chopped up and nearly burned to death.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'd say he was "Surviving" not "Stalemating." It's Obi-Wan's mastery of a defensive style which prolonged the fight. He was surviving BY stalemating. Heck, at one point(when they were battling in the control room) level-8-Kenobi actually managed to disarm level-9-Anakin and take his saber... Even though the difference between their saber-skills was allegedly "enormous." Lol, has anyone else ever thought about some of the stuff I've mentioned pertaining to the "levels" nonsense, or did you guys just buy off on it without thinking twice?

---

More on point:
Anyway, Lucas himself stated that when he was on Mustafar, Anakin was a mindphucked train-wreck who was full of guilt, remorse and conflict. Never, in the history of SW, have those emotions ever helped a Jedi or Sith in battle. Never. Once. Why on earth you guys think Anakin wasn't being hindered by those emotions, when any other force-user who has experienced those emotions has been hindered/weakened by them, is truly baffling to me. Personally, I think you guys are arguing just to argue. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
...And then Anakin came back and wtfpwned Dooku in an effortless fashion...

I tend to look at the whole fight. I'm not just going to ignore the fact that Dooku had Skywalker lying completely helpless on the floor for like 10 seconds, while he was simultaneously disposing of Obi-Wan.

I also don't think we should judge fights by how long they last. A defensive fighter will hold off his opponent for a longer period.

But interestingly enough Makashi has been shown to be a good defensive form too when used in that way. Refer to Dooku fending off Anakin's power blows in "Crisis on Naboo."



Originally posted by Galan007
He was surviving BY stalemating. Heck, at one point(when they were battling in the control room) level-8-Kenobi actually disarmed level-9-Anakin... Even though the difference between their saber-skills was allegedly "enormous."Lol, has anyone else ever thought about some of the stuff I've mentioned pertaining to the "levels" nonsense, or did you guys just buy off on it without thinking twice?



Well the levels "nonsense" does seem to have originated from Lucas.

And we didn't see Kenobi disarm Skywalker. We just see Skywalker choking Kenobi with one hand and Kenobi's sword arm with his other hand. It's possible he let go of his Saber because he saw the opportunity to gain that advantage.

It was actually Anakin who disarmed Kenobi after that.

Btw I'm not closed to the idea that his performance was hindered against Obi-Wan. I'm just pointing a few things out.

The Official Site does claim he felt his powers grow when he turned to the Dark Side. And then from the ROTS novel there's Dooku dread at what would happen to him if Skywalker embraced his whole rage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I tend to look at the whole fight. Cool, then look at the whole fight with Kenobi. They stalemated. The entire time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And we didn't see Kenobi disarm Skywalker. We just see Skywalker choking Kenobi with one hand and Kenobi's sword arm with his other hand. It's possible he let go of his Saber because he saw the opportunity to gain that advantage. In the director's commentary portion of the RotS DVD, Lucas says that Kenobi disarmed Anakin-- that's how he ended up with his saber.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Btw I'm not closed to the idea that his performance was hindered against Obi-Wan. I'm just pointing a few things out.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The Official Site does claim he felt his powers grow when he turned to the Dark Side. I could see him thinking his powers grew initially... But by the time he was crying on Mustafar, Anakin was an emotional mess. The emotions he was experiencing(guilt, conflict, remorse, etc.) DO NOT, and NEVER HAVE strengthened a force-user-- they have ONLY weakened them.

Originally posted by Galan007


In the director's commentary portion of the RotS DVD, Lucas says that Kenobi disarmed Anakin-- that's how he ended up with his saber.



Oh ok. I didn't know that.

Anyway Gillard who told us about the levels said he called Skywalker vs Kenobi "toe to toe". Because they couldn't get past each other's defenses as they knew each others moves inside out (I know makes perfect sense) in the Making of ROTS.

So that's his explanation anyway.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh ok. I didn't know that.

Anyway Gillard who told us about the levels said he called Skywalker vs Kenobi "toe to toe". Because they couldn't get past each other's defenses as they knew each others moves inside out (I know makes perfect sense) in the Making of ROTS.

So that's his explanation anyway. That's the thing, though. Violent forms, like Anakin's Djem So, are ideal for breaching the defenses of Soresu: "The emphasis on Djem So remains strength, with violent blows that can penetrate any defense." - A Manual for Students of the Force

So like I mentioned before: if Anakin's saber-skills truly were "enormously" better than Kenobi's on Mustafar, then Soresu would have been inconsequential-- Anakin would have destroyed him, not just stalemate him for the entire battle. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
That's the thing, though. Violent forms, like Anakin's Djem So, are ideal for breaching the defenses of Soresu: "The emphasis on Djem So remains strength, with violent blows that can penetrate any defense." - A Manual for Students of the Force

So like I mentioned before: if Anakin's saber-skills truly were "enormously" better than Kenobi's on Mustafar, then Soresu would have been inconsequential-- Anakin would have destroyed him, not just stalemate him for the entire battle. /shrug

Well according to the ROTS script Skywalker was forcing Kenobi backwards. He wasn't giving ground voluntarily. So Skywalker was the more powerful duelist.

I can't imagine Kenobi doing as well if they fought in tighter environments, like on Dooku's ship, or Palpatine's office.

But yes the difference clearly wasn't "Enormous."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well according to the ROTS script Skywalker was forcing Kenobi backwards. He wasn't giving ground voluntarily. So Skywalker was the more powerful duelist. Before or after Kenobi finally decided that he had to stop holding back and take Anakin out?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But yes the difference clearly wasn't "Enormous." Exactly.

Yet if those statements/quotes are to be believed, then Anakin supposedly was an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi-- but like you mentioned/agreed with: he obviously was not, as they stalemated throughout the entire battle. Heck, even their force-powers(force-pushes) were equal.

Thus an "enormous" difference(or any notable difference, for that matter) clearly did not exist between them on Mustafar.

Nice posts Galan007. I disagree with a few things you said, but you sure did come through here laying down the law. lol

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well according to the ROTS script Skywalker was forcing Kenobi backwards. He wasn't giving ground voluntarily. So Skywalker was the more powerful duelist. When duelists use a defensive style of fighting, they tend to go backwards, not fowards. The Mustafar duel was the perfect demonstration of Anakins offensive style and Kenobi's defensive style.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I can't imagine Kenobi doing as well if they fought in tighter environments, like on Dooku's ship, or Palpatine's office.That's entirely speculation. The superior duelist should be able to take out the other no matter what the terrain is. Kenobi's higher ground advantage was essentially his ability to adapt to the environment in which Anakin clearly failed to do.

Originally posted by mnat801
When duelists use a defensive style of fighting, they tend to go backwards, not fowards. The Mustafar duel was the perfect demonstration of Anakins offensive style and Kenobi's defensive style.

Yeah except the Script makes it perfectly clear that Kenobi giving ground wasn't to do with his style. He simply had no choice. Skywalker was the one Forcing him backwards.

He's simply the stronger duellist.

Originally posted by mnat801
That's entirely speculation. The superior duelist should be able to take out the other no matter what the terrain is..

Not true at all. We outright know Skywalker was the superior duellist on even ground as confirmed by the stunt coordinator's levels. Levels he got from extensive talks with George Lucas on the matter.

Originally posted by mnat801


I've not disagreed with that because that's exactly the reason Kenobi won. That and Skywalker's judgement having been compromised by his recent turn to the Dark Side.

I'm STILL wiating on the PROOF VIA NARRATION OR SCRIPT OR FROM LUCAS THAT ANAKIN'S PERFORMACE was HINDERED AT ALL BECAUSE OF GUILT. You keep acting like it's a fact in evidence when it is anything but. Fact in evidence is the script or novel saying he wasn't fighting at 100% because of his confliction or guilt... it's saying his emotions were effecting his performace... WHERE IS THE NARRATION SUPPORTING IT? If there is none, then you need to concede that is your speculation.

Further, you dismiss the fact that Kenobi was also very emotional.. some might say MORE emotional. Who do you think is feeling more guilt... somebody who clealry has a tendency to fits of rage... pompous.. arrogant... etc etc or somebody who is generally morally better? That is like saying somebody who isn't a good person is going to feel just as much guilt about stealing a wallet as somebody who is a good better. That makes ZERO logical sense. Did you forget Anakin fit of rage and slaying all those people because of his mom's death? Did you forget that he was only thinking of himself when he turned to the DS? Yet you expect me to believe he was so guilt ridden that he couldn't fight worth a damn. If it was SO obvious and profound like you make it out ot be.. why was there no narration supporting it.. ODD eh?

Point is, you're caught up in the moment or a life or death situation.. you have a tendency to forget aout such things. Do you think if you'r ein a fight for your life you're going to be thinking about how you just cheated on your life and beat the prostitue you cheated on her with? Or would those thoughts TOTALLY leave your mind and you would totally fighting for survival? Not to mention already being pissed at Kenobi for turning Padme.. which woudl further make him forget about what he had done. STop trying to pass off your speculation as proof. Either post the proof or admit you have none. We have Lucas HIMSELF stating Anakin got more powerful and a better duelist when going to the DS... That trumps.. ohh he was feeling guilt THUS HE MUST MUST'VE fought shitty..

Good point KT. It's not like Kenobi was so eager to kill Skywalker.

They were both emotionally conflicted. And yet they both attempted to overpower the other, and both showed possibly the greatest dueling prowess we've witnessed from them in the movies.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Good point KT. It's not like Kenobi was so eager to kill Skywalker.

They were both emotionally conflicted. And yet they both attempted to overpower the other, and both showed possibly the greatest dueling prowess we've witnessed from them in the movies.

Kenobi was resolved more than conflicted. He had helped create this monster that had overtaken the boy he trained. He was ready to stop it.

Anakin on the otherhand...come on.
'In the Force, Mace could feel the monster inside Anakin Skywalker, a real monster, too real, one that was eating him alive from the inside out. Fear.
This was the wound Anakin had taken. This was the hurt that had him shaking and stammering and too weak to stand.'- Anakin can barely even stand after learning Palps in the Sith Lord, he even hesitates becoming Vader after dicing Mace's hand off. Later he is seen crying, right before having all of these horrible things catch up to him (killing younglings) come back to him and slap him in the face by none other than the living breathing reason he did all of that, he then proceeds to almost murder her were it not for Kenobi's timely intervention.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kenobi was resolved more than conflicted. He had helped create this monster that had overtaken the boy he trained. He was ready to stop it.



Was he? He told Yoda he'd rather take his chances with the frigging Emperor!

And the novel makes it kind of clear how Obi-Wan's emotions affected his performance too- To strike him down would cause his heart to burn to ashes. And there was the "Compassion- The Flaw of the Jedi" thing too (which I think might be in the script as well. Will have to re-check).

Somehow I doubt "compassion" would be a big issue if he were fighting say Darth Maul.

These 2 were brothers. It was never going to be an emotionless fight Imho.

Having said that Skywalker was still the more powerful duelist. But I think we should give Kenobi the credit he deserves for holding him off for so long (not to mention actually defeating him).

Actually Kenobi wasn't resolved to doing so.. The novel makes it clear he was conflicting on what he had to do. As i stated before.. Anakin had ALREADY done all these things... That is like saying somebody stealing a wallet for the 4th time is more guilty by that 4th time. NO that isn't likely at all. What is more likely is they are use to and reso.lved to what they are.. and what they are doing.

The Padme incident is MORE proof of that NOT LESS. It's more proof that Anakin was pretty mcuh all bad at that point... He turned to the DS for his own selfish purposes and for his love Padme.. IF he wasn't MOSTLY BAD ALREADY.. do you really think he would choke her or try and kill her. If he was AS conflcted as some of you make out.. he wouldn't have done jack. Instead he further proves my point that he was way gone by that point and does another bad act. Yet you're going to tell me that is an act of a guilty person? Come on now people use common sense.

Originally posted by Galan007
Either way, shame/guilt/remorse/doubt/conflict-- those emotions do not strengthen, they weaken(look at any force-user who has ever taken doubt with them into a saber fight, for example.) That is my only point. Originally posted by Galan007
Anyway, Lucas himself stated that when he was on Mustafar, Anakin was a mindphucked train-wreck who was full of guilt, remorse and conflict. Never, in the history of SW, have those emotions ever helped a Jedi or Sith in battle. Never. Once. Why on earth you guys think Anakin wasn't being hindered by those emotions, when any other force-user who has experienced those emotions has been hindered/weakened by them, is truly baffling to me. Personally, I think you guys are arguing just to argue. /shrug Originally posted by Galan007
I could see him thinking his powers grew initially... But by the time he was crying on Mustafar, Anakin was an emotional mess. The emotions he was experiencing(guilt, conflict, remorse, etc.) DO NOT, and NEVER HAVE strengthened a force-user-- they have ONLY weakened them.

Show me a single instance in which a Jedi or Sith hasn't been hindered by the emotions Anakin was experiencing. If no one is able to do so, then I will keep assuming that Anakin is just like EVERY other Jedi/Sith in that regard, and WAS being hindered by those emotions. Guilt hinders you. Doubt hinders you. Conflict hinders you. Etc.

Some things don't need to be specifically referenced by the director of the film for us to still know what's going on-- and this is one of those.

Kenobi was JUST as hindered then.. we can ASSUME that very thing... The point is.. even IF he was feeling that way when fighting Kenobi.. A) so was kenobi and one could argue it would effect him more and B) not only is that speculation but you don't know HOW much it was effecting him..

For example... what it emotions in the range of 8/10.. 5/10 what would it be... My thinking is.. it would be around 1 or 2/10.. Reason being.. He was already bad and already gone by that point... The definitive proof of that is him trying ot kill Pad.. If he was TRULY guilty and bothered THAT much he wouldn't have even tried that or thought about that let alone executed that. That is pretty solid proof he was already gone and not feeling much of anything like guilt by that point. Further proof is, again.. he was ALREADY prone to going bad.. that is why Yoda and others feared training him. We aren't talking about a more morally kenobi here.. yes.. there would be mroe guilt there.. We're talking about an Anakin who had already slain people for his mothers death.. already killed younglings... already Killed Dooku when he shouldn't have.. already killed Mace and betrayed the Jedi.. That's akin to saying Jeffrey Daumer was feeling pretty damn guility killing no. 14 kid.. Ummm nah.. He was already gone.. already done too much.

So the point is.. not only is there ZERO narration stating it effected him in anyways... There is more proof that he was already far gone by that point. he had already done tooo much by that point. Plus the ever present life or death situation and being pissed at Kenobi.. Does somebody who just cheated on their wife with a prostitute they beat nearly to death feeling guily or not fighting as well when they get attacked by a knife outside the hotel room.. Nah I think they are fighting just the same and not thinkng about that one bit. Same with Anakin.. whatever guilt he might have been feeling wasn't even being thought about during his fight with Kenobi. If anything Kenobi was more conflicted which was expressed and yet still won.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah except the Script makes it perfectly clear that Kenobi giving ground wasn't to do with his style. He simply had no choice. Skywalker was the one Forcing him backwards. Okay. So Anakin was forcing Kenobi backwards. Where did that get him? Nowhere! Anakin didn't put a single scar on Kenobi, and that was basically the longest lightsaber duel in the films! If it had nothing to do with Kenobi's fighting style, how the heck could he last that long, seeing that Dooku was disarmed in under a minute of their duel?

I'll give Anakin the credit for being able to force Obi Wan backwards for most of the fight, but Obi Wan gets at least the same amount of credit for fending of every single swing, without suffering any injury.

But as far as Soresu goes, if people can't accept that the result of this duel was AT LEAST partially due to Obi Wan's soresu, then I don't know how soresu can be portrayed otherwise.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's simply the stronger duellist. Doesn't mean anything if he never ended up defeating Kenobi. It didn't get him anywhere in that duel except for forcing Kenobi backwards. But he's stupid enough to let his guard down for Kenobi to be able to incapacitate his legs and arm, let alone outright killing him witha fatal blow.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not true at all. We outright know Skywalker was the superior duellist on even ground as confirmed by the stunt coordinator's levels. Levels he got from extensive talks with George Lucas on the matter. So you're only counter to my argument is that you had just found out that Obi Wan is level 8 and Anakin level 9? Level's don't mean s**t if a level 8 Obi Wan can take down a level 9 Anakin. Especially when there's supposedly a big difference between 8 and 9. Please give me a better argument at least.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I've not disagreed with that because that's exactly the reason Kenobi won. That and Skywalker's judgement having been compromised by his recent turn to the Dark Side. And this I agree with also. But with Anakin's hinderence also comes Obi wan's hinderence for his unwillingness to kill or even fight Anakin.

Don't even know how Kenobi couldn't get full credit... He was also hindered by conflict and still put that aside and got the job done.. Simple. I was pretty much the go to fight to see what a master of Soresu can do

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Kenobi was JUST as hindered then.. we can ASSUME that very thing... The point is.. even IF he was feeling that way when fighting Kenobi.. A) so was kenobi and one could argue it would effect him more and B) not only is that speculation but you don't know HOW much it was effecting him..

For example... what it emotions in the range of 8/10.. 5/10 what would it be... My thinking is.. it would be around 1 or 2/10.. Reason being.. He was already bad and already gone by that point... The definitive proof of that is him trying ot kill Pad.. If he was TRULY guilty and bothered THAT much he wouldn't have even tried that or thought about that let alone executed that. That is pretty solid proof he was already gone and not feeling much of anything like guilt by that point. Further proof is, again.. he was ALREADY prone to going bad.. that is why Yoda and others feared training him. We aren't talking about a more morally kenobi here.. yes.. there would be mroe guilt there.. We're talking about an Anakin who had already slain people for his mothers death.. already killed younglings... already Killed Dooku when he shouldn't have.. already killed Mace and betrayed the Jedi.. That's akin to saying Jeffrey Daumer was feeling pretty damn guility killing no. 14 kid.. Ummm nah.. He was already gone.. already done too much.

So the point is.. not only is there ZERO narration stating it effected him in anyways... There is more proof that he was already far gone by that point. he had already done tooo much by that point. Plus the ever present life or death situation and being pissed at Kenobi.. Does somebody who just cheated on their wife with a prostitute they beat nearly to death feeling guily or not fighting as well when they get attacked by a knife outside the hotel room.. Nah I think they are fighting just the same and not thinkng about that one bit. Same with Anakin.. whatever guilt he might have been feeling wasn't even being thought about during his fight with Kenobi. If anything Kenobi was more conflicted which was expressed and yet still won. It's NOT speculation. Those emotions have always hindered force-users. ALWAYS. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Why on earth you are arguing that point is truly baffling..? Tell me a single time --a SINGLE time-- in which doubt or conflict have EVER strengthened a force-user, instead of weakening them. I'm waiting.

Furthermore, Kenobi only held back against Anakin initially. Very soon into their battle, Kenobi realized that he had to stop Anakin by any means necessary, so he stopped holding back:
"Obi-Wan let go. Of everything. His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. Everything. Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment: He let it go."-- RotS

...Conversely, it was never once mentioned that Anakin let go of his emotions during their battle. Therefore, we can only assume he was still feeling exactly how Lucas described him: remorseful, guilty, conflicted, etc.


To recap:
Anakin was certainly NOT more powerful after turning to the dark side-- if anything, his powers would have been hindered/weakened secondary to the emotions he was experiencing at the time(as has been the case with ANY other force-user.) Again, a calm/cool mindset(when Anakin fought Dooku)>>a conflicted, guilty, and remorseful mindset(when Anakin fought Obi-Wan.) This is really very simple.

Originally posted by mnat801

So you're only counter to my argument is that you had just found out that Obi Wan is level 8 and Anakin level 9? Level's don't mean s**t if a level 8 Obi Wan can take down a level 9 Anakin. Especially when there's supposedly a big difference between 8 and 9. Please give me a better argument at least.




First of all I didn't just find out about the levels. I've got the Making of Revenge of the Sith.

I however was just given evidence that those levels came directly from Lucas. I did always suspect as much, as I didn't think Gillard would just make them up without discussing the topic with Lucas first.

So yeah my weak argument is that Lucas outright puts Anakin as a more powerful duelist to Kenobi.

I'm afraid your the one whose going to need to come out with better evidence when your disagreeing with what Lucas says.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's NOT speculation. Those emotions have always hindered force-users. ALWAYS. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Why on earth you are arguing that point is truly baffling..? Tell me a single time --a SINGLE time-- in which doubt or conflict have EVER strengthened a force-user, instead of weakening them. I'm waiting.

Furthermore, Kenobi only held back against Anakin initially. Very soon into their battle, Kenobi realized that he had to stop Anakin by any means necessary, so he stopped holding back:
"Obi-Wan let go. Of everything. His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. Everything. Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment: He let it go."-- RotS

...Conversely, it was never once mentioned that Anakin let go of his emotions during their battle. Therefore, we can only assume he was still feeling exactly how Lucas described him: remorseful, guilty, conflicted, etc.


To recap:
Anakin was certainly NOT more powerful after turning to the dark side-- if anything, his powers would have been hindered/weakened secondary to the emotions he was experiencing at the time(as has been the case with ANY other force-user.) Again, a calm/cool mindset(when Anakin fought Dooku)>>a conflicted, guilty, and remorseful mindset(when Anakin fought Obi-Wan.) This is really very simple.

So you're still not addressing the points brought up so let's make this simple

1. You do agree that how much Anakin was effected would depend on the level of guilt or emotions he ws feeling correct. Somebody feeling level 9/10 would be effected more than somebody at a level 1/10 of guilt correct?

2. Do you agree that Anakin couldn't have been feeling THAT guilty or else how could he even think about killing Anakin. Somebody feeling as guilty as you make them out to be.. wouldn't go ahead and do an almost unthinkable act correct? That is more indicative of somebody NOT feeling guilt and too far gone correct?

3. You forget we AREN"T talking about a moral character like Kenobi here correct? We're talking about somebody who had a tendancy to be brash.. arrogant.. reckless.. have fear inside.. So many emotions in fact that the counsel didn't even want to Train him. Ponit is, somebody already morally quesitonable ISN'T going to feel as much guilt as say somebody like Kenobi correct?

4. Do you agree that the OVERRRIDING emotion that ANakin was feeling when fighting Kenobi was Anger? That sure seem readily apparent in the highest form of Canon.. He seemed pissed at Kenobi and wanted to kill him. He was going at him FULL BORE. That is HARDLY indicative of somebody feeling guilty or remorseful. Do you agree that is true? Further, if somebody was feeling as guilty as you claim.. they might hesitate in landing the decisive blow.. they might not attack with such vigor.. SHOW ME ANY INSTANCE in that might where he fought like that

5. Do you agree that somebody who just cheated on his wife and beat the living crap out of a prostitute to near death whilte there kid was in the room... Isn't even going to be thinking of that.. when he is attacked with a knife. Do you hoenstly not believe that feelings of guilt have a tendency to be forgotten in a fight or life or death situation. I mean come on man this is basic logic here.

6. Is it also not true.. that there IS narration supporting the fact that Kenobi WAS holding back.. and not one.. nOT ONE single shred of evidence that Anakin was holding back nor hindered in his fight?


These are all common sense and logically deduction to make when determining if emotions were hiindering Anakin at all.

Now, how can you say going to the DS didn't increase his power.. when Anakin said just that. You even admitted that Anakin prob felt that way.. yet you're saying he didn't grow stronger? HUH? We have george lucas signing off on the idea of levels of swordmanship and Anakin went HIGHER when he turned to the DS. So even if you believe (which I don't) that his emotionos hurt him.. you would have to weight that against the increase he got... but to say he didn't increase at all.. is going against Lucas himself.

Lastly, why would I have to show emotions effecting others when that doesn't matter in this case. YOU have to prove it EFFECTED HIM SPECIFICALLY.. not me having to prove it didn't. I have ZERO NARRATION OR ANY EVIDENCE OR EVEN HINT that it effected him in battle. If it was as big an issue as you're making it out to be.. why was there ZERO mention of it.. and don't give me ohhh they don't have to mention everything... that is a cop-out... The novel mentions very specific stuff in great detail that we coudl also assume but they stated in anyways.. yet no mention of this HUGE issue. Doesn't seem very plausible that was just left out for us to see. Further, just because Kenobi doesn't fight well after taking a dump... means ANakin won't? Just because one person was effected greatly by emotions means all will.. That is a logical fallacy and you know it buddy.

Holy mega-post!

Anakin was feeling EXTREMELY guilty/remorseful/conflicted/etc. about the evil things he'd done. That's why he was literally crying on Mustafar! Geeze, I've already addressed the questions you're asking. Thoroughly. Stop being purposefully obtuse.

Anywho, the above scene makes the rest of your 'points' entirely inconsequential. Lucas told us the emotions Anakin was experiencing-- we were then shown how much those decisions/emotions were effecting Anakin, when we saw him CRYING over them.

Once more: a force-user has NEVER been strengthened by emotions of that caliber. NEVER. ONCE. They have ONLY been hindered by them. Who is stronger in battle? A cool/calm/collected force-user, or a conflicted/guilty/doubtful force-user? Exactly.

It's really THAT simple.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First of all I didn't just find out about the levels. I've got the Making of Revenge of the Sith.

I however was just given evidence that those levels came directly from Lucas. I did always suspect as much, as I didn't think Gillard would just make them up without discussing the topic with Lucas first.

So yeah my weak argument is that Lucas outright puts Anakin as a more powerful duelist to Kenobi.

I'm afraid your the one whose going to need to come out with better evidence when your disagreeing with what Lucas says. Are you 100% sure that came from Lucas? I guess it supports his statement when he says "Anakin is more powerful, but Obi Wan is more experienced." Still, doesn't change what was very clear in the films.

Oh by the way, as it sounds, Lucas never ranked Anakin as better than Obi Wan, he just said Obi Wan = level 8 and Anakin level 9.

Originally posted by Galan007
Holy mega-post!



I think this was his key point:

So even if you believe (which I don't) that his emotionos hurt him.. you would have to weight that against the increase he got... but to say he didn't increase at all.. is going against Lucas himself.

Originally posted by mnat801
Are you 100% sure that came from Lucas?

Gillard is 100% sure that it came from Lucas.

And you don't honestly think he would just make up the characters combat prowess himself without discussing it with Lucas first do you?

Or that Lucas would let him choreograph the fights without giving him an idea of their combat prowess?



Originally posted by mnat801
I guess it supports his statement when he says "Anakin is more powerful, but Obi Wan is more experienced." Still, doesn't change what was very clear in the films.

Oh by the way, as it sounds, Lucas never ranked Anakin as better than Obi Wan, he just said Obi Wan = level 8 and Anakin level 9.

9>8. So that's that. Skywalker was the Stronger swordsman on even ground.

Doesn't mean Kenobi's Soresu mastery can't hold him off for a while and maybe defeat him in another way: By say using the terrain to his advantage and tactically outsmarting him.

Edit

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think this was his key point:

So even if you believe (which I don't) that his emotionos hurt him.. you would have to weight that against the increase he got... but to say he didn't increase at all.. is going against Lucas himself. But unless you think that Anakin was vastly inferior to Kenobi before turning to the dark side(despite his trouncing of Dooku suggesting otherwise), then he obviously didn't increase.

How do I know? Because Anakin's saber-skills were equal Kenobi's after turning to the dark side-- I can say this with confidence because we saw them stalemate throughout their entire battle, before Kenobi lopped off Anakin's extremities and watched him burn alive. Furthermore, even their brute force powers were equal-- I can say this with confidence because we also saw their force-pushes stalemate.

So tell me: what "increase" did we see from dark side Anakin? I believe he may have initially thought(key word) he was more powerful after turning, but that level of arrogance(along with the other feelings of confliction he was experiencing at the time) was/were ultimately his undoing.

---

Anyway, here's my point:
If I can be convinced(with proof) that dark side Anakin was not being hindered by the very strong emotions he was experiencing at the time --like EVERY other force-user in the history of SW has been-- then I will readily agree that was at least on the same level that he was pre-dark-side-conversion. However, I have yet to see any evidence of the sort, thus I can only assume that Anakin is just like every other Jedi/Sith in that regard and was being hindered/weakened by said emotions. /shrug

Heh, the difference between a level 8(Kenobi) and a level 9(Anakin) is allegedly enormous, per your quotes. There was clearly NOT an "enormous" difference between them. They stalemated. The entire time. Anakin never once gained any sort of noteworthy ground, despite his form of combat, Djem So, being an ideal form to breach the defenses of Kenobi's Soresu. If Anakin truly were an "enormously" better duelist, he would have owned Kenobi without much effort. Simple.

The difference between Palpatine and Savage, for example, represents an "enormous" difference-- as Palps tooled Savage effortlessly in sabers. The difference between Anakin and Kenobi, however, was marginal at BEST.

All your mega-post represents is a massive attempt to save face, without addressing what we clearly saw happen in the battle itself. So again: save that stuff for people who ignore the facts.

Originally posted by Galan007
Heh, the difference between a level 8(Kenobi) and a level 9(Anakin) is allegedly enormous, per your quotes. There was clearly NOT an "enormous" difference between them. They stalemated. The entire time. Anakin never once gained any sort of noteworthy ground, despite his form of combat, Djem So, being an ideal form to breach the defenses of Kenobi's Soresu. If Anakin truly were an "enormously" better duelist, he would have owned Kenobi without much effort. Simple.

The difference between Palpatine and Savage, for example, represents an "enormous" difference-- as Palps tooled Savage effortlessly in sabers. The difference between Anakin and Kenobi, however, was marginal at BEST.

All your mega-post represents is a massive attempt to save face, without addressing what we clearly saw happen in the battle itself. So again: save that stuff for people who ignore the facts.
The difference was enormous because Kenobi was constantly giving ground. If Kenobi tried to fight offensively, he would die withing seconds.
It's like facing a professional boxer. If you are stupid enough to attack him, he will KO you no sweat. But if you constantly move away from him, he will have much harder time to reach you and deal his most devastating attacks. Defensive fighting is what helps to survive those, who are far better than you, that's a fact.

Defensive positions often do give ground to their opponent(it's a basic concept in fencing), so that is a moot point.

Bottom line: there was certainly not an "enormous" difference to be had. If Anakin were "enormously" more skillful, he would have made short work of Kenobi. Why? Because a.) he'd be WAAAY better with a saber overall, and b.) Per canon info, Djem So is ideal for breaching "ANY defense"(ie. Soresu)... Yet absolutely no ground of note was gained by Anakin. They stalemated the entire time before Kenobi finally prevailed. Plain and simple.

Again: an "enormous" difference=Palpatine/Savage. A "marginal" difference=Anakin/Kenobi. I feel like you're making this a lot harder than it needs to be, for no reason.

Originally posted by Galan007
But unless you think that Anakin was vastly inferior to Kenobi before turning to the dark side(despite his trouncing of Dooku suggesting otherwise), then he obviously didn't increase.

How do I know? Because Anakin's saber-skills were equal Kenobi's after turning to the dark side-- I can say this with confidence because we saw them stalemate throughout their entire battle, before Kenobi lopped off Anakin's extremities and watched him burn alive. Furthermore, even their brute force powers were equal-- I can say this with confidence because we also saw their force-pushes stalemate.

So tell me: what "increase" did we see from dark side Anakin? I believe he may have initially thought(key word) he was more powerful after turning, but that level of arrogance(along with the other feelings of confliction he was experiencing at the time) was/were ultimately his undoing.

---

Anyway, here's my point:
If I can be convinced(with proof) that dark side Anakin was not being hindered by the very strong emotions he was experiencing at the time --like EVERY other force-user in the history of SW has been-- then I will readily agree that was at least on the same level that he was pre-dark-side-conversion. However, I have yet to see any evidence of the sort, thus I can only assume that Anakin is just like every other Jedi/Sith in that regard and was being hindered/weakened by said emotions. /shrug

Wait so we need to prove Anakin wasn't effected by the emotions he was feeling? Umm No my friend.. you have it backwards... YOU need to prove these emotions were effecting him. The point that can't be gotten around is there was ZERO.. ZILTCH.. NOT ONE HINT of Anakin being effected by his emotions during his fight with Kenobi. It was even ALLUDED TO. So then, it's up to you to prove that it was said yet still existed. Because as it stands.. the proof is on my side i.e. no mention of there being an issue.. i'm saying there was no issue. My further proof of this is... If Anakin was TRULY feeling so guilty as to effect his performance... Then we would've seen such emotions come out during his fight.. i.e. holding back.. not going for the killing blow.. face expressions showing such.. instead WE SEE NOTNING.. AGAIN NOT ONE SINGLE SIGN ANAKIN IS FEELING ANY GUILTY OR SADNESS.. He is attacking Kenobi FULL FORCE.. Do you not agree? That certainly isn't showing any signs he was feeling much of anything but anger.. AND AS WE KNOW ANGER MAKES HIM STRONGER per canon novelization. Lastly, we have further proof he wasn't feeling anything by his actions towards Padme... When you're feeling as guilty as you make out.. he wouldn't have done what he did... If he was so guilt ridden to effect his performace he wouldn't just go ahead and try and kill her.. That DEFIES LOGIC AND COMMON SENSE. THus, clearly he wasn't feeling as guility as you make out. If so, those aren't the actions of somebody really feeling bad about what he's done.

I dno't think there was an enormous difference myself.. So that I don't agree with. Just the fact that Kenobi was an 8.. able to defeat a 9.. in n of itself points to a slight difference not an enormous one. That isn't my point though.. my issue is that Ankin showed ZERO signs of being negatively effected by his emotions.. and in fact... showed the opposite during his fight with Kenobi. To go further, if anybody was effected during that fight negatively by emtions it was Kenobi.. which by the way.. is the ONLY perosn to have any narration about him holding back.. n Anakin. Thus, the canon proof is on that side the argument. Yet, Kenobi still won. That gap couldn't be enourmous.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
YOU need to prove these emotions were effecting him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT0Pmlyee6o
Anakin felt so bad about the choices he'd made that he was literally crying over them. If that isn't good enough evidence that said emotions were affecting him, then I don't know what is.

The burden of proof now lies on YOU to prove that he was no longer experiencing guilt, remorse, confliction, doubt, etc. when Kenobi confronted him a little later. Good luck!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I dno't think there was an enormous difference myself.. So that I don't agree with. Just the fact that Kenobi was an 8.. able to defeat a 9.. in n of itself points to a slight difference not an enormous one. That isn't my point though.. I know it wasn't your point, friend. That was all in reference to Arhael's stance.

Glad we agree there, though.

Originally posted by Galan007
Defensive positions often do give ground to their opponent(it's a basic concept in fencing), so that is a moot point.

Bottom line: there was certainly not an "enormous" difference to be had. If Anakin were "enormously" more skillful, he would have made short work of Kenobi. Why? Because a.) he'd be WAAAY better with a saber overall, and b.) Per canon info, Djem So is ideal for breaching "ANY defense"(ie. Soresu)... Yet absolutely no ground of note was gained by Anakin. They stalemated the entire time before Kenobi finally prevailed. Plain and simple.

Again: an "enormous" difference=Palpatine/Savage. A "marginal" difference=Anakin/Kenobi. I feel like you're making this a lot harder than it needs to be, for no reason.
If your opponent constantly moves away from you, you need to move as well. While you are moving, your posture is off-balance, which means that you cannot attack as effectively and your attacks will be much weaker.
In circumstances, where you always have space to move backward, you can stalemate any opponent no matter how skilled he is.

The fact that Djem So can penetrate any defense doesn't mean it grands victory because defender can still prevent killing blow by dodging or moving away on safe distance. Anakin did penetrate Kenobi's defense three times. One time he choked him and nearly killed with Kenobi's own weapon. And he kicked him twice.

Also, if you gonna argue by "style make fights" logic, then read this:

True masters of Form III have long been considered invincible: although not always able to overcome their adversaries, no Form III masters have ever been defeated. - Jedi vs Sith The essential guide to the Force.

And, Galan007, I know who you are.

Originally posted by Arhael
In circumstances, where you always have space to move backward, you can stalemate any opponent no matter how skilled he is.Lol, tell that to Savage. He had AMPLE room to move backward and was still tooled by Palps.

Originally posted by Arhael
The fact that Djem So can penetrate any defense doesn't mean it grands victory because defender can still prevent killing blow by dodging or moving away on safe distance.You're. Not. Listening.

Your stance is that Anakin was an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi. If that were true, then he would have obliterated Kenobi w/o much effort for 2 main reasons:
a.) Because he'd be a vastly better duelist overall.
b.) Because he utilizes a form of combat that, per canon, can "penetrate ANY defense."

...But because Anakin was clearly NOT "enormously" better, he and Kenobi merely stalemated.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, if you gonna argue by "style make fights" logic, then read this:

True masters of Form III have long been considered invincible: although not always able to overcome their adversaries, no Form III masters have ever been defeated. - Jedi vs Sith The essential guide to the Force. Hm, well Kenobi was supposedly THE master of Soresu, yet Grievous still managed to overwhelm his defenses:
"Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense." - RotS

Anywho, aside from the Djem So quote I've repeatedly posted, there's also this quote pertaining to Juyo:
"While attacks can eviscerate defenses---even the blocks of a Form III Master" - A Manual for Students of the Force

Thus there are at least 2 forms of combat(3 if you count Makashi) that are ideal for breaching the defenses of Soresu. So again: if Anakin were really an "enormously" better duelist(a claim only YOU seem to boast) he'd of tooled Kenobi rather easily... But he'd didn't.

Originally posted by Arhael
And, Galan007, I know who you are.

I think the word "Enormous" was a clear overstatement by Nick.

But that doesn't change the fact that the levels were given to him by Lucas. Or that Skywalker was the "stronger" duelist to Kenobi, hence Kenobi being constantly Forced backwards.

Stronger not more skilled. They were equally skilled as confirmed by the ROTS novel, Nick Gillard and confirmed visually in their performance.

Turning to the Dark Side would not increase Skywalker's skill level.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think the word "Enormous" was a clear overstatement by Nick.

There was really no difference to be had. It was a true stalemate.

Originally posted by Galan007


There was really no difference to be had. It was a true stalemate.

Nah. A true stalemate wouldn't have had Skywalker Forcing Kenobi backwards as confimred by the script. Edit- And constantly penetrating his defenses via kicks. Something that's not easy when Kenobi is serious. Just ask Maul and Opress.

On even ground it would just be a matter of time before Skywalker broke through Kenobi's defenses.

The line "This is the end for you now my Master," suggests to me Kenobi couldn't keep up his defenses indefinitely.

But if they were broken easily while he has all the room in the world to constantly back off then being "The Master" of Soresu would seem kind of lame.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah. A true stalemate wouldn't have had Skywalker Forcing Kenobi backwards as confimred by the script. Edit- And constantly penetrating his defenses via kicks. Something that's not easy when Kenobi is serious. Just ask Maul and Opress.

On even ground it would just be a matter of time before Skywalker broke through Kenobi's defenses.

The line "This is the end for you now my Master," suggests to me Kenobi couldn't keep up his defenses indefinitely.

But if they were broken easily while he has all the room in the world to constantly back off then being "The Master" of Soresu would seem kind of lame. Remember, at one point, Kenobi also disarmed Anakin... And it's also kind of funny to me how people are acting like Obi-Wan was being pushed back the entire time. He wasn't. Rewatch the film.

Originally posted by Galan007
Remember, at one point, Kenobi also disarmed Anakin...

That's true. But Skywalker also disarmed him. And it was Skywalker who was getting the majority of the hits in.

Originally posted by Galan007
And it's also kind of funny to me how people are acting like Obi-Wan was being pushed back the entire time. He wasn't. Rewatch the film.

Well there was enough instances where Kenobi was backing off. And backing off quite a bit.

And it's confirmed by Lucas's Script that it was Skywalker Forcing him back. It wasn't simply because he's a defensive fighter.

He was definitely the stronger/more powerful fighter Imo. And I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And it's confirmed by Lucas's Script that it was Skywalker Forcing him back. It wasn't simply because he's a defensive fighter.

He was definitely the stronger/more powerful fighter Imo. And I'm not the only one who thinks so. I have no problem with Anakin being physically stronger than Kenobi-- I've never disputed that, actually.

What I absolutely cannot agree with is the notion that Anakin was "enormously" more skillful than Kenobi. Frankly, I find that absurd.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, tell that to Savage. He had AMPLE room to move backward and was still tooled by Palps.

You're. Not. Listening.

Your stance is that Anakin was an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi. If that were true, then he would have obliterated Kenobi w/o much effort for 2 main reasons:
a.) Because he'd be a vastly better duelist overall.
b.) Because he utilizes a form of combat that, per canon, can "penetrate ANY defense."

...But because Anakin was clearly NOT "enormously" better, he and Kenobi merely stalemated.

I. Am. Listening. And explained you the reason that, if one is enormously better duelist, another can still stalemate him by fighting defensively and giving ground.

Savage unlike Kenobi was refusing to give ground and fight defensively, on opposite he kept trying to attack again and again. Sidious landed that kick in the face, when Opress tried to attack him.


Nowhere it says that defense of master of Soresu cannot be overwhelmed. Only that they are invincible and has never been defeated. Anakin as I said penetrated Kenobi's defense three times, yet, still failed to defeat him. Also, nice try at taking quotes out of context, here is continuation:
...he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. -slice-
Kenobi didn't get defeated as result of his defense getting overloaded, on opposite he began outskilling Grievous.


Throw as many quotes as you like, one style advantage does not make it superior to another. Excessive effort to penetrate defenses of an opponent equally makes you more vulnerable to counterattacks.
Kenobi barely surviving whole fight constantly retreating is enough to conclude that Anakin was much better. If Kenobi was stupid enough to fight offensively, Anakin would stomp him within seconds like Sidious - Opress.

Originally posted by Arhael
I. Am. Listening. And explained you the reason that, if one is enormously better duelist, another can still stalemate him by fighting defensively and giving ground. Sorry, but fighting defensively alone is not enough to bridge an "enormous" skill-gap-- hence Kenobi's defense being overwhelmed by Grievous, for example.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nowhere it says that defense of master of Soresu cannot be overwhelmed. Only that they are invincible and has never been defeated. Kenobi is invincible now? Should I still be taking you seriously?

Originally posted by Arhael
Anakin as I said penetrated Kenobi's defense three times, yet, still failed to defeat him. But wait! I thought Anakin was "enormously" more skillful? If he were THAT much better than Kenobi, why wasn't he able to capitalize on those advantage(s)? Because they were roughly the same level. That's why.

Thanks for helping prove my point.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, nice try at taking quotes out of context, here is continuation:
...he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. -slice-
Kenobi didn't get defeated as result of his defense getting overloaded, on opposite he began outskilling Grievous. I took nothing out of context. The defense offered by Kenobi's Soresu was overwhelmed by Grievous-- the point is that Soresu is NOT invincible, and HAS been overwhelmed. Simple.

Originally posted by Arhael
Throw as many quotes as you like, one style advantage does not make it superior to another. All things being equal, a Djem So or Juyo master is going to have the advantage over a Soresu master, because the latter forms are ideal for breaching the defense of Soresu.

In this case you're claiming that Anakin was "enormously" better than Kenobi, so he should have been able to kill him with ease(especially when they were in the tighter quarters of the control room, for example.)

This is very simple.

Originally posted by Galan007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT0Pmlyee6o
Anakin felt so bad about the choices he'd made that he was literally crying over them. If that isn't good enough evidence that said emotions were affecting him, then I don't know what is.

The burden of proof now lies on YOU to prove that he was no longer experiencing guilt, remorse, confliction, doubt, etc. when Kenobi confronted him a little later. Good luck!

I know it wasn't your point, friend. That was all in reference to Arhael's stance.

Glad we agree there, though.

That isn't the least bit true though.. The burden of proof STILL lies with you my friend. That would be like me saying... Anakin was still feeling guilt over slaying all those people after his mom died.. Surely he felt guilty... there i no narration stating he was still feeling guilty... so therefore he must still feeling guilty in ever confrontation after? No that isn't how ti works and what you're proposing here. Look at it like this...

We see Kenobi have doubt.. confliction sadness BEFORE even facing Kenobi when talking to Yoda... We still SEE these same emotions present when talking to kenobi and it was EVEN REFERENCED as him STILL feeling that way during the fight. Now in STARK CONTRAST TO THAT.. We see Anakin upset with some stuff he did BEFORE being confronted. Yet Unlike Kenobi.. .when confronted SHOWED NO.. NO INDICATION HE WAS STILL FEELING THAT WAY. Not only did his words show no sign of feeling anything but anger.. but his actions ALSO showed he wasn't feeling as guility as you make out. Choking Pad... Attacking Kenobi with such force... That is proof he wasn't feeling anything.. and EVEN IF Those facts weren't present for us all to see. .the burden would still lie on you to prove he was and it EFFECTED him.

Further, where are these instances you're referring to where guilty.. conflict.. sadness... has ALWAYS to use your words negatively effected a jedi or sith in combat? We see numerous instances where the exact OPPOSITE is true. Kenobi upon seeing his master slain... clearly felt sadness.. guilt that he couldn't do anything to save him.. Yet, he attacked Maul with vigor and aggression and ANGER.. and OVERCAME HIM. Funny huh, there is that anger thing being mentioned as a key to Kenobi being victorious... Kinda like how Anakin was fighting eh? Luke.. when his mind was read and he gave away the secret about his sister and endangered her... Felt sad.. confliction.. doubt.. guilt.. shit.. he is even shown with his eyes watering RIGHT BEFORE taking HIS OWN FATHER OUT. So, where are these examples of emotions ALWAYS negatively effecting somebody and making them fight subpar.. I've just cited two examples where the exact opposite was true.

Ohhh and i don't think Kenobi's defenses were overwhelmed by The General. In the highest form of canon.. he disarms The General of 3 of his sabers... Seems the exact opposite of overwhelmed. Anyways, Anakin is not enormously better than kenobi.. that is just silly

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That isn't the least bit true though.. The burden of proof STILL lies with you my friend. No, it does not. I've provided more than enough proof to support each and every claim I've made. Frankly, I no longer need to prove anything. It's your turn. PROVE to me that Anakin was no longer experiencing those overwhelming feelings when Kenobi encountered him.

I'm not just going to assume said emotions left him within a few-hour span of time. Lol?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That would be like me saying... Anakin was still feeling guilt over slaying all those people after his mom died.. It's nothing like that, actually.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Anyways, Anakin is not enormously better than kenobi.. that is just silly

Originally posted by Galan007
Sorry, but fighting defensively alone is not enough to bridge an "enormous" skill-gap-- hence Kenobi's defense being overwhelmed by Grievous, for example.
It actually is. As example a boxer, if stays in one place, can make powerful combos and land knock down punches. But, if opponent moves away, he can't do any of that, until he corners him. Same applies to any type of combat. Moving puts you off-balance making your attacks weaker, clumsier and slower. To do your strongest and most effective attacks, you need to be in good posture and statically standing in one place, which is impossible, when opponent constantly moves away.


Because Kenobi was constantly giving ground. Also, don't twist what's in the text. It say difference is enormous. Skill wise, they were both equal, both masters. The enormous difference is about capabilities.


I didn't help you in anything. Indeed, Soresu is not invincible, the quote was referring to practitioner. Soresu can be penetrated like any other style. But true master still doesn't lose fight. When your defense is opened, you can still dodge and get yourself out of reach. Moving backward makes much harder for opponent to deal defeating blow, even if they get past lightsaber defense.


No, Djem So and Juyo will not have advantage over Soresu master because Soresu has advantages over these styles as well. And don't forget that Anakin was master of Djem So as fine as Dooku has ever seen. So Anakin vs Kenobi is direct proof that neither style is better.

Actually there is an example fight of equals between Juyo and Soresu.
Marek in his Force vision was fighting his lightside counterpart. And he was unable to penetrated defenses of his opponent. On opposite Soresu practitioner penetrated his defenses:
The Jedi blocked it, too; just. Soresu was a defensive fighting style well suited to the close confines of the hut, but it wouldn't last forever against the malignant grace of Juyo.

The Jedi came in hard and fast before the apprentice could idly another attack. He cared little if the Jedi hit him, so long as damage was minimal. Close hits left flesh sizzling and armor smoking. The energy he saved on wild dodges he spent on tearing jagged planks from the walls and throwing them at the Jedi's head.

Originally posted by Galan007
PROVE to me that Anakin was no longer experiencing those overwhelming feelings when Kenobi encountered him.
PROVE to me that Anakin's performance was hampered by those feelings.

Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back - What for Kenobi is desperate move, for Anakin it can be countered easily with contempt. That implies high performance.

Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!" Dark power bore down with his grip.

Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks. - strength that nearly crushed Kenobi's bones is nothing short of best performance. Imagine how strong his attacks must have been. Such attacks can be countered only by giving ground.

Originally posted by Galan007
No, it does not. I've provided more than enough proof to support each and every claim I've made. Frankly, I no longer need to prove anything. It's your turn. PROVE to me that Anakin was no longer experiencing those overwhelming feelings when Kenobi encountered him.

I'm not just going to assume said emotions left him within a few-hour span of time. Lol?

It's nothing like that, actually.

Buddy, you said that emtions always effect a sith or jedi and you also mention in a negative way.. I cited two fights where combatants were feeling these SAME emotions you claim were hampering Anakin so much.. and they were shown experienced them EVEN CLOSER TO THE ACTUAL FIGHT and they still WON. Example being Kenobi vs. Maul and Luke vs. Vader... in both cases Luke and Kenobi felt guilt and sadness... Luke also felt confliction along with the above. You claim these emotions really hamper you as a fighter.. Yet, that isn't true is it?

Originally posted by Galan007
No, it does not. I've provided more than enough proof to support each and every claim I've made. Frankly, I no longer need to prove anything. It's your turn. PROVE to me that Anakin was no longer experiencing those overwhelming feelings when Kenobi encountered him.

I'm not just going to assume said emotions left him within a few-hour span of time. Lol?

It's nothing like that, actually.

I have provided proof... Anakin's actions and words..... Let me see where you're coming from here.. Did Anakin's ACTIONS DURING THE FIGHT.. Indicate ANY inklining of holding back or not trying to kill kenobi with all the vigor he could?

Next, we see Kenobi have doubt.. have confliction.. guilt.. in his convo with Yoda.. he doesn't want to go kill him.. That is confirmed confliction about killing Anakin. We see no such confliction with Anakin. Then.. when they meet.. we see again Kenobi expressing confliciton about killing Anakin.. whiile Anakin expresses no such conflction.. guilt.. remorse when talking to Kenobi. If he was as guility as you claim.. why was there no mention of it then? Then during the fight we see again... Kenobi's guilty sadness confliciton via canon narration HOLDING HIM BACK.. Yet there is NO MENTION NOT ONE LINE stating Anakin is having any doubts.. any remorse.. any conflction.. NOTHING. DOesn't get more clear than that. They went out of their way to show Kenobi had doubt about killing Anakin and even had him holding back at first... yet there isn't ONE MENTION of Anakin having his feelings effect his fighting. NOT ONE. Pretty open and shut case to me. if you have any proof it was effecting him.. now is the time big buddy.. If not, then these emotions weren't effecting him.

First off, Kenobi stopped holding back fairly early in their battle, as I proved.

Secondly, I've posted multiple statements made by Lucas himself in which he outright says that Anakin was experiencing remorse/guilt/confliction/doubt/etc. about the choices he'd made after turning to the dark side. I then solidified Lucas' statements by posting the scene in which Anakin was literally crying over the choices he'd made.... Yet you're still trying to say that such overwhelming emotions just.... Disappeared when Kenobi arrived? Okay, then PROVE IT. I have provided more than enough proof that Anakin was a mindphucked/emotional mess just prior to battling Kenobi-- thus the burden of proof falls solely on YOU to prove that he was no longer experiencing those feelings vs. Kenobi.

If you dodge my question again, then I will take it as your concession that you cannot provide such proof, and are arguing a moot point for no real reason.

Originally posted by Arhael
Because Kenobi was constantly giving ground. Also, don't twist what's in the text. It say difference is enormous. Skill wise, they were both equal, both masters. The enormous difference is about capabilities. Lol, you have completely shifted your stance now. You must've finally realized how ridiculous your previous stance was.

It was clear as day to everyone(except you) that Anakin was not an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi. Glad you changed your tune.

Originally posted by Galan007
First off, Kenobi stopped holding back fairly early in their battle, as I proved.

Secondly, I've posted multiple statements made by Lucas himself in which he outright says that Anakin was experiencing remorse/guilt/confliction/doubt/etc. about the choices he'd made after turning to the dark side. I then solidified Lucas' statements by posting the scene in which Anakin was literally crying over the choices he'd made.... Yet you're still trying to say that such overwhelming emotions just.... Disappeared when Kenobi arrived? Okay, then PROVE IT. I have provided more than enough proof that Anakin was a mindphucked/emotional mess just prior to battling Kenobi-- thus the burden of proof falls solely on YOU to prove that he was no longer experiencing those feelings vs. Kenobi.

If you dodge my question again, then I will take it as your concession that you cannot provide such proof, and are arguing a moot point for no real reason.

I did PROVIDE proof... but just so we're clear.. this is your position...

You have no proof that Anakin was negatively effected by his emotions during his battle with kenobi.. Yet, believe he still was because he was crying in one zero several hours before facing kenobi? Just so we're clear.. THAT is your position. You have admitted you have zero proof or narration stating he was effected IN ANYWAY during the battle.

Okay now.. let's try this again...

Nobody is questioning that Anakin at a point in time was feeling sadness... regret... guilt.. WHERE was this point being argued my friend? You keep going on and on about how you provided proof he was feeling this emtions at a point in time. However, nobody is disagreeing with that.. so why keep repeating it? The disagreement lies in him being effected by these at a later time during his battle with kenobi.. for THAT part you have provided ZERO proof.

Let's look at it this way.. you're saying... Common sense tell me that if Anakin was feeling this way at one point.. then these emtions can have a negative effect on somebody and cause them to not fight ot the best of their abilities..Fair? But you also admit you have no proof for that.. just using what could be the case and what could be logical in some cases.. Now...

I"M DOING THE SAME THING HERE.. Using Common sense and logic... THIS IS THE PROOF... and please try and address these points as possible.. plausible or not at all plausible

1. Anakin in talking to kenobi showed NO signs of guilt.. remorse... or anything other than Anger and Arrogance.. True no no? Couldn't it be logical to assume if he was overwhelmed by these emotions like you claim.. they would've come out in talking to Kenobi? Yet they never did.. FIRST COMMON SENSE PROOF.. which my friend is ALL you have as well.. so it needs to be treated with such weight as you're treating your opinion right?

2. If Anakin was so overwhelmed by guilt and remorse... logically one wouldn't think you would then do another terrible act and choke and innocent person you loved and turned to the DS to save.. How do that make logical sense to feelling guility? It doesn't correct? That is actually a sign of him feeling NO GUILT AT THAT TIME. Is this plausible?

3. kenobi expressed doubt.. confliction.. guilt prior to meeting Anakin... expressed it when talking to Anakin.. during his fight was holding back.. he SHOWED AND EXPRESSED SIGNS OF IT EFFECTING HIM right? Yet, if it was so overwhelming like you claim for Anakin.. why was there NO sign of it during his words or shown by him holding back Kenobi? That mekes again ZERO logical sense and points to there being no guilt.

4. I listed two fights in which people were feeling guility.. remorseful.. conflicted... even CLOSER TO WINNING A FIGHT than Anakin showed.. Did Kenobi against maul and Luke against Vader.. show signs of emotions? Did they still not win even though they felt these emotions you claim to be so hampering? More logical proof that not only can these emotions be overcome... but they have been overcome.. and overcome by people ACTUALLY SHOWING THEM RIGHT BEFORE THE FIGHT.. Anakin did so hours and hours before the fight. Is this not true?


That is the logical proof.. so please go through each and tlel me if that can't be logical correct and a sign he wasn't feeling guilty... now then.. YOU PROVIDE EVIDENCE AS I HAVE right beore the fight.. and during the fight that showed that Anakin was still effected by emotions and fighitng sub par becomes of them.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, you have completely shifted your stance now. You must've finally realized how ridiculous your previous stance was.

It was clear as day to everyone(except you) that Anakin was not an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi. Glad you changed your tune.
I changed nothing. Level 8 and 9 difference is enormous. It's canon, you can't dismiss it no matter what. Angry Anakin can make short work out of likes of Dooku, something even Yoda can't.. Dooku like Kenobi was forced to passively defend and try to survive. Kenobi could survive for much longer because his style is centered on defense. If one of the characters can't do anythig but survive, it means that he is at significant disadvantage.

Originally posted by Galan007
Thanks for helping prove my point.


It's a habit of his.

Originally posted by Arhael
The difference was enormous because Kenobi was constantly giving ground. If Kenobi tried to fight offensively, he would die withing seconds.
It's like facing a professional boxer. If you are stupid enough to attack him, he will KO you no sweat. But if you constantly move away from him, he will have much harder time to reach you and deal his most devastating attacks. Defensive fighting is what helps to survive those, who are far better than you, that's a fact. Ah actually, many boxers became world champions, because they outsmarted there opponents using a defensive style and giving ground. e.g Lennox Lewis vs David Tua.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Gillard is 100% sure that it came from Lucas.

And you don't honestly think he would just make up the characters combat prowess himself without discussing it with Lucas first do you?

Or that Lucas would let him choreograph the fights without giving him an idea of their combat prowess? No, I just think that it totally condradicts what was shown on screen. The claim that there is a great difference between level 8 and 9 is unreliable because its very clear that Kenobi and Skywalker where an even match for each other. Why do you think many people have split opinions on the matter? If Kenobi was owned the way Dooku was owned then its case closed. Hoever the fact that Anakin never injured him, as well as Obi Wan being the last man standing, regardless of Anakin's conflicted emotions, mean that it definitely isn't clear that Anakin is the superior duelist.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
9>8. So that's that. Skywalker was the Stronger swordsman on even ground. Why are you making this claim? We don't even know if Anakin can win on even ground. Especially when duels obviously don't come down to who was "the stronger swordsman" as you say. In the mustafar duel, the result was decided by the smarter man, not the stronger man.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Doesn't mean Kenobi's Soresu mastery can't hold him off for a while and maybe defeat him in another way: By say using the terrain to his advantage and tactically outsmarting him. If Obi Wan can outsmart him on Mustafar, I don't see a reason for him not to outsmart him anywhere else. You said yourself that saber wise they were equal. Plus force output as shown in Rots they were equal. But Kenobi was more wise and experienced out of the two, therefore Kenobi is the superior combatant.

''Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.''

Originally posted by mnat801
No, I just think that it totally condradicts what was shown on screen. The claim that there is a great difference between level 8 and 9 is unreliable because its very clear that Kenobi and Skywalker where an even match for each other. Why do you think many people have split opinions on the matter? If Kenobi was owned the way Dooku was owned then its case closed. Hoever the fact that Anakin never injured him, as well as Obi Wan being the last man standing, regardless of Anakin's conflicted emotions, mean that it definitely isn't clear that Anakin is the superior duelist.

What's obvious is down to interpretation really. It's not obvious to everyone that they were equal. Not at all. The majority look at that fight and see Skywalker as the more powerful combatant.

And that's exactly how it was choreographed to look as confirmed by the stunt coordinator.

Kenobi was equally "skilled", lasted a long time and tactically outsmarted him. That doesn't make him as powerful a swordsman.

Originally posted by mnat801


If Obi Wan can outsmart him on Mustafar, I don't see a reason for him not to outsmart him anywhere else.

Pretty unlikely. It took him a long time to take advantage of an environment that's all over the place so filled with opportunites.

There's nothing anywhere to suggest that Kenobi can simply outsmart Skywalker in any given environment before Skywalker breaches his defenses.

On a Tatooine dessert (for instance) it would only be a matter of time before Skywalker breaches Kenobi's defenses.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
''Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.''

They were equally skilled. But Skywalker was simply more powerful.

Yes, I'm pointing it out because it's a big factor that they know each other so well, so of course the weaker combatant would stand a good chance, especially Kenobi as his defense is so good.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What's obvious is down to interpretation really. It's not obvious to everyone that they were equal. Not at all. The majority look at that fight and see Skywalker as the more powerful combatant.

And that's exactly how it was choreographed to look as confirmed by the stunt coordinator.

Kenobi was equally "skilled", lasted a long time and tactically outsmarted him. That doesn't make him as powerful a swordsman.



Pretty unlikely. It took him a long time to take advantage of an environment that's all over the place so filled with opportunites.

There's nothing anywhere to suggest that Kenobi can simply outsmart Skywalker in any given environment before Skywalker breaches his defenses.

On a Tatooine dessert (for instance) it would only be a matter of time before Skywalker breaches Kenobi's defenses.



They were equally skilled. But Skywalker was simply more powerful.

No no and no Big DP... That is EXACTLY what is very likely to happen. No matter the situation... Kenobi can and would also have the mental edge on Anakin.. Which by the way is no small feat... some might say the mind is the most powerful weapon. He's calmer under fire... not arrogant.. not brash.. and tactically smarter than Anakin. THese are all huge factors in a one v one fight. Kenobi would also be able to take advantage of Anakin mentally no matter where they fought.

I don't know why you keep saying Anakin was the more powerful duelist.. He wasn't.. got dismembered and left NO lasting scars on Kenobi besides mental ones. He out thought him and baited him into making that dumb move. Kenobi wass shown to be the better duelist... If by more powerful you simply mean Anakin is stronger.. Okay sure... but that is about it.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No no and no Big DP... That is EXACTLY what is very likely to happen. No matter the situation... Kenobi can and would also have the mental edge on Anakin.. Which by the way is no small feat... some might say the mind is the most powerful weapon. He's calmer under fire... not arrogant.. not brash.. and tactically smarter than Anakin. THese are all huge factors in a one v one fight. Kenobi would also be able to take advantage of Anakin mentally no matter where they fought.


If that was true he would have defeated him much earlier.

Since he was only able to take advantage of his f***ed up mentality after such a long sword fight was coming to an end and even that required taking advantage of a frigging Lava Pool, I'd say for Kenobi to outsmart Sith Anakin in a re-match is hardly as likely as you make out.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I don't know why you keep saying Anakin was the more powerful duelist.. He wasn't.. got dismembered and left NO lasting scars on Kenobi besides mental ones. He out thought him and baited him into making that dumb move. Kenobi wass shown to be the better duelist... If by more powerful you simply mean Anakin is stronger.. Okay sure... but that is about it.

The stunt coordinator makes it clear that Skywalker was the more powerful duelist.

Even if you think Kenobi is always likely to outsmart Sith Anakin into defeat (unlikely Imho) then that may make Kenobi the superior overall combatant when faced against Skywalker. But it doesn't make him the superior Swordsman or Force User.

They were equally skilled but Skywalker was much stronger and he can tank force attacks much better.

Those superior attributes are why he can consistently stalemate a power house like Count Dooku when Kenobi has no chance in hell against the awesomeness of the Count.

It's also why he consistently performs better against Ventress. In fact I can't think of an opponent whom Kenobi can beat but Skywalker can't. It just doesn't happen.

Not true...

First, he was holding back at the start.. so that exludes part of the fight. Second, the constant change in levels and terrain also makes it difficult for Kenobi.. He's also having to constantly adjust levels and as well as balance while being attacked. That makes it harder to look for an opening and exploit it. Plus, that is just how Soresu fights anyways... So when you look at the totality of the fight... one could argue it might have happened earlier had in been on neutral ground.

Yes Kenobi is the superior overall combatant and that has been my point the whole time. If you want to have Anakin be more powerful (however you define said word) okay, but kneobi is superior overall and that has always been my point.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi Yes Kenobi is the superior overall combatant and that has been my point the whole time. If you want to have Anakin be more powerful (however you define said word) okay, but kneobi is superior overall and that has always been my point.
Then how come every time Kenobi has faced Dooku he's been put on his ass but when Anakin faces the good Count they're stalemating?

Not true... Let's look more careful shall we....

In the clone wars.. Their performance against Dooku has been pretty much the same.. Maybe Anakin doing slightly better overall. However, Anakin has also DONE THE WORST between the two getting his arm cut off the second time he cmae back.. and the first time getting One shot by lighting. Kenobi did much better and that was the worst performance by either.

Further, when Anakin actually did win... It was AFTER he had been fighting BOTH Anakin and Kenobi and it was outright stated they were weakening win.. and he had to use up force reserves. Also, the main reason Anakin does better is because he is better at tanking force attacks than Kenobi. EACH time Dooku has gained the edge on Kenobi it was via the force not out sabering him since becoming a Soresu master. However, when Anakin and Kenobi meet.. their offensive force powers are on par.. thus Anakin doesn't have that same advantage over Kenobi as Dooku does...

It's pointless discussing Anakin vs Kenobi because of the circumstances. This is perhaps the only fight in which Kenobi would do better than Anakin in, except maybe against Grievous. But against any other opponent you'd rather want Anakin than Kenobi on your side.

I totally disagree with that statement. Like pretty much totallly. Kenobi is the better overall fighter. So no, just no.

How is he the better overall fighter when he can't take force attacks at all?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Not true... Let's look more careful shall we....

Uh Oh. When someone's in complete denial of Skywalker's very blatant superior showings over Kenobi's against Dooku then we have to be scared of the grasping that's to come.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In the clone wars.. Their performance against Dooku has been pretty much the same.. Maybe Anakin doing slightly better overall. However, Anakin has also DONE THE WORST between the two getting his arm cut off the second time he cmae back.. and the first time getting One shot by lighting. Kenobi did much better and that was the worst performance by either.

Firstly that was AOTC not Clone Wars.

Lets ignore the fact that the only reason Kenobi didn't get cut to pieces was because Skywalker saved him. Lets also ignore the fact that the novel makes it clear that Skywalker's Saber performance gave Dooku more trouble than Kenobi's.

Aside from those you do realize your now comparing Kenobi to PADAWAN Anakin right? Has your argument had to stoop that low KT? Really?

Bad KT. Very Bad.

Fact is since Skywalker was Knighted Dooku has never been able to convincingly defeat Skywalker. Yet still deals with Jedi MASTER Kenobi as though he were a Padawan.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Further, when Anakin actually did win... It was AFTER he had been fighting BOTH Anakin and Kenobi and it was outright stated they were weakening win.. and he had to use up force reserves.

And yet Kenobi STILL couldn't stand up to him despite Dooku being tired. Yet Skywalker defeated him. Hence Skywalker's performance was far better.

And that was Kenobi in his Prime. Skywalker has one on one stlemated Dooku consistently. Kenobi can not hope to do that.

Hence Skywalker's performance has always been far better. (Oh apart from when he was a Padawan).

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Also, the main reason Anakin does better is because he is better at tanking force attacks than Kenobi. EACH time Dooku has gained the edge on Kenobi it was via the force not out sabering him since becoming a Soresu master. However, when Anakin and Kenobi meet.. their offensive force powers are on par.. thus Anakin doesn't have that same advantage over Kenobi as Dooku does...

Firstly I'm not convinced their offensive TK powers are on par just because of that force push contest that sent them both back.

Skywalker has the superior TK feats. Just recently he Force Choked Ventress. I've never seen any evidence to suggest Kenobi is Ventress's superior or even equal in Force TK. And like you mentioned Skywalker can tank Force attacks much better. So they're not equals in that regard.

Secondly Kenobi has had his chance to best Dooku in Sabers but has never done so.

Whilst in Skywalker and Dooku's last CW fight in "Crisis on Naboo" it was only Dooku's force powers that made the fight a stalemate. Skywalker was besting him in Sabers. (Not by much, but he did best him).

There's no opponent that I'm aware of who Kenobi can beat but Skywalker can't. Whilst Skywalker can beat Dooku. But Kenobi can't. And his performances against other foes like Ventress and Durge while fighting alongside Kenobi, have always been superior to Kenobi's.

End of.

^Completely agreed.

Btw, would superior tanking of force attacks mean superior force powers? So basically that could be another proof for Anakin>Kenobi in the force.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No no and no Big DP... That is EXACTLY what is very likely to happen. No matter the situation... Kenobi can and would also have the mental edge on Anakin.. Which by the way is no small feat... some might say the mind is the most powerful weapon. He's calmer under fire... not arrogant.. not brash.. and tactically smarter than Anakin. THese are all huge factors in a one v one fight. Kenobi would also be able to take advantage of Anakin mentally no matter where they fought.

I don't know why you keep saying Anakin was the more powerful duelist.. He wasn't.. got dismembered and left NO lasting scars on Kenobi besides mental ones. He out thought him and baited him into making that dumb move. Kenobi wass shown to be the better duelist... If by more powerful you simply mean Anakin is stronger.. Okay sure... but that is about it. Nice, this is my point exactly.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lets ignore the fact that the only reason Kenobi didn't get cut to pieces was because Skywalker saved him. Lets also ignore the fact that the novel makes it clear that Skywalker's Saber performance gave Dooku more trouble than Kenobi's. Do you also want to ignore the fact that at the start of the duel Anakin rushes in and gets attacked by lightning and is down for the length that Kenobi fights? Where as Kenobi is able to defend himself against the force lightning. So if we look at each individually, Kenobi gave a better performance OVERALL.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet Kenobi STILL couldn't stand up to him despite Dooku being tired. Yet Skywalker defeated him. Hence Skywalker's performance was far better.

And that was Kenobi in his Prime. Skywalker has one on one stlemated Dooku consistently. Kenobi can not hope to do that.

Hence Skywalker's performance has always been far better. (Oh apart from when he was a Padawan).
Sidious wanted Dooku to seperate Obi Wan from the fight so that he could see if Anakin was truly better than Dooku. We see this when Dooku is using the force to get him far away, and then to put a massive boulder on him so he can't go anywhere. This shows that by ROTS, if he were to continue fighting both Anakin ad Obi Wan, he would quickly be overwhelmed. Its like when Obi Wan overwhelmed Opress and Maul, and Maul hat to resort to force powers, not to defeat him, but so he could run away.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Firstly I'm not convinced their offensive TK powers are on par just because of that force push contest that sent them both back. You don't tend to be convinced by obvious things like this.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Skywalker has the superior TK feats. Just recently he Force Choked Ventress. I've never seen any evidence to suggest Kenobi is Ventress's superior or even equal in Force TK. And like you mentioned Skywalker can tank Force attacks much better. So they're not equals in that regard. Okay you are totally wrong here. WE ARE NEVER GOING TO SEE OBI WAN FORCE CHOKE ANYONE. Not because he can't do it, but because he chooses not to. So how is your comparison fair? So I don't know how you calculate Anakins TK feats to be superior. Especially when it showns then and there that their force push contest was even. Its plain and simple DP.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Secondly Kenobi has had his chance to best Dooku in Sabers but has never done so. Totally wrong. As of ROTS, Anakin got his chance to show what he improved on, but Obi Wan never did.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whilst in Skywalker and Dooku's last CW fight in "Crisis on Naboo" it was only Dooku's force powers that made the fight a stalemate. Skywalker was besting him in Sabers. (Not by much, but he did best him). Not denying the fact that Anakin is better than Dooku. But Kenobi has never had a chance against him in the Clone Wars, just like Anakin never gets a chance at Grevious.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There's no opponent that I'm aware of who Kenobi can beat but Skywalker can't. Whilst Skywalker can beat Dooku. But Kenobi can't. And his performances against other foes like Ventress and Durge while fighting alongside Kenobi, have always been superior to Kenobi's.

End of. As an Anakin fan, I bet its hard for you to acknowledge the fact that Obi Wan is the superior of the two as shown in the Mustafar duel.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
^Completely agreed.

Btw, would superior tanking of force attacks mean superior force powers? So basically that could be another proof for Anakin>Kenobi in the force.

Well if we add that to his superior TK feats, then yes. I think all the evidence suggests Skywalker was more powerful than Kenobi in respect to Force TK.

But clearly not to an extent where it's a guaranteed win like Dooku vs Kenobi. I'd personally put Skywalker's Force TK approximately on par with CW Maul's.


Originally posted by mnat801
Its like when Obi Wan overwhelmed Opress and Maul, and Maul hat to resort to force powers, not to defeat him, but so he could run away.



Lol Even if it's purpose was to run away (probably to save Opress if it was) fact is it left Kenobi knocked senseless.

If it didn't cause an avalanche in between them(which just shows how powerful it was) Kenobi would be finished.




Originally posted by mnat801
Not denying the fact that Anakin is better than Dooku. But Kenobi has never had a chance against him in the Clone Wars, just like Anakin never gets a chance at Grevious.



Oh come on!

He had his chance at the height of his power in ROTS. And he was completely humiliated. Stop trying to pretend Kenobi is in any kind of league to contend with Count Dooku. It's pretty crystal clear that he's not.

It's also pretty crystal clear that Skywalker would destroy Grievous.

Let's be just a little bit Objective here.


Facts are:

1.Skywalker consistently performs better than Kenobi against the same opponents. Skywalker for instance has never lost a fight to Ventress.

2.Skywalker can defeat Count Dooku. Obi-Wan has no chance in hell to do that.

3. There's no one Kenobi can defeat that Skywalker can not.

I know that. Defensive style advantage allowes to compensate for lack of strength and stamina. And it is what can save your ass, when you are outmatched in skill or simply tired. It's much harder to master but advantages it gives are worth it.



I need to point out at a few specifics, when evaluating fight with Dooku.
Dooku's style is mainly offensive, it's designed to swiftly outduel opponent.

But notice that both in CW and RotS Dooku was forced to full defense. That demonstrates his inferiority to Anakin because, if he was more skilled, he would be the one forcing Anakin on the defensive.

Defense is not what Dooku's style is about and that is the reason why he got tired and went down so much faster than Kenobi.

I used to consider Kenobi to be more skilled than Dooku, now I am no longer sure of that, although I still consider him much more versatile fighter, which gives him an edge. But main thing is that Kenobi's style advantage allowed him to survive much longer than Dooku and use that time to get higher ground.

Anakin's combat prowess for final fight is evaluated as 9, while Kenobi - 8. And that's why it was Kenobi trying to survive whole fight.